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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Production of Departmental Documents.

The full implications of the question I propose to raise to-night cannot be fully exposed in the brief time I have at my disposal. When they are fully exposed to the public, however, they will reveal a sorry episode, a tawdry episode and a disgraceful episode, such as, I am glad to say, never before disgraced the public administration of the State, and, it is to be hoped, such as will never occur again. To understand the full significance of the matter, it is necessary for a moment to stress the fact that the officer who was the centre of this episode and who subsequently suffered for withstanding the pressure which was brought to bear on him was the secretary of one of the great Departments of State.

The post of secretary of a Department is a very difficult one to fill conscientiously and effectively. It is difficult because of the peculiar and intimate relationship which exists between him and the Minister in charge of his Department. It is true that the secretary is the officer of the Minister; it is true that he must be loyal to the Minister; it is true that he must serve the Minister to the best of his ability and the utmost of his capacity; and it is true that, in everything relating to the business of his Department which it is lawful and proper for him to do in his capacity as secretary, he must be obedient to his Minister. But the secretary of a Department is not bound to be the rubber stamp of his Minister; he is not bound to be a mere chiper in his Department; he is not bound to be the cat's-paw of his Minister or to permit himself to be used by the Minister to further his own private interests. The secretary of a Department is bound to be zealous, loyal, active and obedient in all lawful things, but he is also expected to be independent in his judgment, fearless in advising the Minister and firm in resisting anything which would jeopardise the probity and discipline which the people expect to be maintained in their public service.

We must bear all this in mind in considering the subject matter of the question which I put to the Minister for Social Welfare to-day. Briefly, that question asked whether a certain litigant—and, here, in order that there may be no confusion of identity or character, it is necessary for me to mention and to refer sometimes to the Minister for Social Welfare by his own proper name and surname—in these private civil procedings, to wit, Mr. William Norton, of Merlyn Park, Ballsbridge—endeavoured by pressure on the gentleman who was then secretary of the Department of Social Welfare to compel that officer to place at the disposal of Mr. Norton's lawyers certain confidential State papers in order to assist them in the prosecution of their client's suit. The question was addressed by me to the Minister for Social Welfare because it was in virtue of his office as Minister for Social Welfare that this private litigant was able to bring pressure of this particularly despicable and reprehensible kind on a high servant of the State.

The general character of the steps taken by Mr. Norton's agents and representatives in this matter is briefly indicated in the question. They will, I think, on another occasion be expanded and proved in an irrefutable way. The question, however, if I may recapitulate it, briefly asked whether Mr. Norton's solicitor——

Is it in order for the Deputy to describe the Minister as Mr. Norton or to refer to any Minister by his ordinary name?

The question was directed to the Minister for Social Welfare——

And he should be described as such.

——and, when reading the question, the Deputy should read it as it is on the Order Paper.

I regret that if I did so I would put the public under a mis-apprehension——

I have allowed the Deputy some latitude in respect of what he has said——

I am submitting to you, Sir——

—— in reference to the name of the particular Minister concerned. When he proceeds to recapitulate the question, as he describes it, he should give it as it is on the Order Paper.

Very well; if I am compelled to create an ambiguity in the situation——

Let me be clear about this. The Chair is not endeavouring to get the Deputy to create an ambiguity. The Chair is endeavouring to put on record what is on the Order Paper, and nothing more.

I will put it this way, if I may: if I am compelled by the rules of the House and the ruling of the Chair to create a certain ambiguity in the public mind——

I will not allow that. The rules of the House and the ruling of the Chair are not endeavouring to create any ambiguity. The Chair is endeavouring to enforce the rules of Order as they should be enforced, and nothing more.

Very well; then, I shall refer to the litigant in these proceedings as the Minister for Social Welfare, bearing in mind that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

O'Donovan does not smell so well.

Deputy MacEntee does not smell so well.

The Deputy should restrain himself.

The question asked whether the solicitor acting in civil proceedings brought by the Minister for Social Welfare in his private capacity as a Minister of this State, a certain Mr. Gore-Grimes, in writing, demanded that certain documents be produced by Mr. O'Donovan to assist him in conducting the action which the Minister was taking against the Irish Press.

Why did you want to sack O'Donovan?

Deputy MacEntee is entitled to make his case.

The question further asked whether it was at the Minister's instance his counsel informed Mr. O'Donovan at a conference held on 27th June, 1949, that the Taoiseach would direct him in writing to produce the documents. The answer which the Minister for Social Welfare gave to these questions in the House to-day was as follows: "The Solicitor and counsel retained by him conducted the proceedings on their own initiative."

What about Tim Healy in 1916?

"I gave no directions to them as Minister for Social Welfare." This was a carefully drafted reply, a cunningly drafted reply, but it was a mendacious reply all the same.

Sir, would you rule as to whether a Deputy is entitled to describe a reply as a mendacious reply?

It was a misleading reply. I know that the Minister has a tender skin.

I think it should be withdrawn.

I take it, when the Deputy is altering his statement, that he is withdrawing the word "mendacious".

I shall withdraw the word "mendacious" and shall leave it to the public to judge between, the use of the word "mendacious" or "misleading". I am using the word "misleading".

Are we to understand that the Minister gave a misleading reply in this House?

Note the phrase "the solicitor and counsel retained by him".

Tim Healy in 1916.

What about 1922?

The Minister apparently burked at using the phrase "retained by me". It was the Minister for Social Welfare, in his private capacity, as a private citizen, who retained the solicitor and counsel, who, the Minister went on to tell us, "conducted the proceedings on their own initiative". "I gave no direction to them as Minister for Social Welfare". Well, Sir, if this statement of the Minister is true, and I assume that, by the conventions of the House—but by nothing else—I am bound to accept it as true, then someone else is lying.

It was Deputy MacEntee who was lying in 1916.

Someone must be a liar, because on 22nd June, 1949, Mr. Gore-Grimes, acting for the Minister in his private capacity as a humble citizen, wrote to Mr. O'Donovan, the then secretary of the Department. A reply came, a letter—the letter was obviously a reply to a prior refusal on the part of Mr. O'Donovan to comply with the request previously made by Mr. Gore-Grimes on behalf of the Minister for Social Welfare—and the reply was in these terms: "In the first place, it is not an unauthorised communication, as you are authorised to send it to me by the Minister, who is your superior officer, and I receive it, not as a member of the public but as a servant of the Minister, inasmuch as I am a solicitor engaged by him to conduct this piece of litigation." Mark the terms, the emphatic terms of this letter. "It is not an unauthorised communication, as you are authorised to send it to me by the Minister, who is your superior officer." Would any solicitor in his right mind and in his full senses and in control of his faculties write in that mandatory—and, indeed, minatory—tone, if he had not received the explicit direction of his client to do so? Someone is lying in regard to this matter, whether it is the reputable legal practitioner of high standing in his profession, or someone else——

Or Mr. O'Donovan himself.

——to whom as a result of the litigation in question a Dublin jury awarded the contemptible damages of £1—it is not for me to say. I am content to leave that particular aspect of the matter to the judgement of the public.

It was a favourable decision.

I am content also to leave to the public judgment the veracity of the Minister's statement that his solicitor and counsel conducted his case on their own initiative.

So did Tim Healy.

On their own initiative, mar dheadh; on their own initiative. Who initiated this gold-digging action against the Irish Press? Was it Mr. Gore-Grimes or was it Messrs. O'Brien Fitzgerald, Desmond Bell, or Hannin, the counsel who acted in the case? Not at all. It was the Minister for Social Welfare, in his personal capacity, giving an address at Merlyn Park, Ballsbridge, Dublin, Mr. O'Donovan's superior officer, as Mr. Gore-Grimes emphasised in his letter of June 22nd, 1949, a passage from which I have just put before the House——

Why did you want to sack O'Donovan?

A Deputy

He could not get Maximo.

——Mr. William Norton who as Minister for Social Welfare was after Mr. O'Donovan's scalp from the day on which that gentleman refused to be suborned to give evidence on behalf of the Minister in the unprofitable action which was launched by him against the Irish Press.

Is that why you wanted to dismiss him?

If I were Minister for Social Welfare, he would have gone three years ago.

I take it you will ensure, Sir, that I will have an opportunity of replying?

The Minister will get ten minutes, which is the time usually allowed on a motion for the adjournment.

We are asked by the Minister to believe—I say that, by the conventions of the House, we are bound to believe, but my conscience is my own——

I should not like to be guilty of that.

——that the solicitor and counsel retained by him did all this on their own initiative——

Just as Tim Healy did.

——just as this Minister, so tender of skin, so zealous for his reputation and, I am afraid, so anxious for gain.

Someone was anxious for the skin.

When he launched these proceedings, he turned his back upon them and he wishes the public to believe that he was so much a Silly-Billy of a litigant that, having launched the action, he forgot all about it, put it out of his mind altogether. The wonder is indeed—we may ask ourselves this in view of the Minister's reply to-day—that he bothered to give evidence in the case at all.

The Minister now, to reply.

A Deputy

He gave evidence in 1916.

Did you give evidence in 1922?

I want to assure you that I am still looking at the clock and I have two minutes.

The clock is on the stroke now. I am calling on the Minister.(Interruptions.)

I cannot hear you. I am looking at the clock.

The clock's hand is on the black stroke and I am calling on the Minister.

My eyesight is better than that.

Mr. Boland

Who made Tim Healy Governor-General? It was your friends over there who made him Governor-General.

May I be permitted, Sir, to reply to some of the gross misrepresentations in which Deputy MacEntee with a characteristic disregard for veracity has indulged this evening?

Is that in order?

May I ask if that is in order?

It is perfectly in order, Deputy Aiken. Do not get ruffled, you, because you are normally quite.

On a point of order. Would the Chair be good enough to explain to me the difference between "mendacity" and "a characteristic disregard for veracity"?

There is no difference when the Deputy is speaking.

The difference depends on who is speaking.

The Deputy must not say that. That is a charge against the Chair.

That is nothing unusual for the boys over there.

Deputy MacEntee came into the House this evening and quoted a document which was put into his hand by the late Secretary of the Department, a letter written to the Secretary of that Department.

It is written to Mr. O'Donovan.

It is an official document and the Secretary of the Department has now put into the Deputy's hands this official document which should be on the official file.

It is the Secretary's document.

I was not actually present but I understand from the counsel and solicitors that in the course of the legal action they had occasion to see Mr. O'Donovan. I was not present when they saw him; I declined to be present on any such occasion. As a result of the interview which took place between the solicitor and counsel and Mr. O'Donovan, the solicitor received from Mr. O'Donovan three copies of a memorandum supplied by the late Secretary of the Department. Setting out what? The solicitors went there for the purpose of getting a picture of what kind of work the Department was doing and what were its activities, and as a result of that discussion the Secretary of the Department voluntarily supplied to were its activities, and as a result of that discussion the Secretary of the Department voluntarily supplied to the solicitors three copies of a document being a description of the work of the Department of Social Welfare. Here it is. Anybody who likes can see it. It is all in the annual report of the Department of Social Welfare, which is available to all to read. The solicitor wrote thanking him for those documents, saying: "I will see you later." That was on the 20th June. On the 22nd June the Secretary of the Department wrote to the Solicitor, saying:—

"At our recent discussion, I promised to give you a background picture of the Department's work as you felt that it would be most helpful in the preparation of your brief. To that end, I have had the enclosed notes prepared on the progress of the White Paper and the various reciprocity agreements. Bearing in mind the secrecy imposed on civil servants, I am now extremely worried——"

He was!

"——as to the propriety of allowing such information to go outside the Department except on a specific direction of the court. I am seeking advice on the matter and, in the meantime, I would ask you to treat the information in the strictest confidence."

Whereupon the solicitor said, of course, that in any case the document was just rubbish. It consists of an explanation of the Social Welfare Act, 1948, which anybody can look at, an explanation of the work of the Department and five Press statements which at that time were a year old and had already appeared in the newspapers. That is what the late Secretary of the Department sent. This rubbish, this pure unadulterated rubbish, in the circumstances of the day and at the time the case was being heard, is being twisted and described in Mr. MacEntee's question as information of a confidential character. Anybody who likes can read this document.

That is not the document nor the evidence you wanted him to give.

The solicitor regarded these documents as rubbish, which it was. No documents in the Department of Social Welfare were of any value to the solicitor. He merely wanted a picture of the kind of work done in the Department and the Minister's association with it.

He wanted to know what the Minister was doing.

The Deputy will know to-morrow what the Minister will do.

The Deputy wants to know what his predecessor was doing.

Mr. MacEntee sought to weave around this whole matter a tapestry showing an overwrought and distressed Secretary——

That is rather poetic language.

——struggling to do his best and being persecuted. That is a fabrication and a distortion of the real picture in this case and no one should know that better than Deputy MacEntee, because he had his own problem with the same gentleman.

Did he want to sack him?

We will come to that later, through whether to-night or on some other occasion is another matter.

Deputy MacEntee wanted to sack him.

Counsel and solicitor asked for no documents whatever of a confidential character. They asked for a picture of the work of the Department. Here are the documents they got. There is nothing confidential in them and there was no impropriety whatever either on my part, on the part of the solicitor or, in fact, in my judgment, on the part of the Secretary of the Department in issuing these documents to the solicitor because they contained well-known facts which are in the possession of everybody. Deputy MacEntee, however, for political purposes, has sought to make all the political capital he can out of this case and quite clearly he has been briefed by the late Secretary of the Department. I charge you now——

I charge you now with deliberately misleading the House and the public and you will not bluff out of this.

I want to say in connection with that conspiracy that politics make strange bed-fellows. I can assure Deputy MacEntee that the more he probes this case, the greater the mare's nest——

The hornet's nest.

——he will find it from his point of view. This Government represents the people of the country.

Go to the people.

You will get that chance in due course.

Go to the people.

Give us the chance now.

In this particular instance, this Government was not prepared to stand for the deliberate flouting and defiance of its own authority. This particular officer was guilty of refusing on six occasions to do what he was told——

Including giving evidence which would not be true.

——on instructions given by me, by the Taoiseach and by the Government as a whole. It was not the first time this officer did the same thing and the Deputy knows what his problems with him were.

I found him a very efficient officer.

A self-professed Fianna Fáil political hack.

I will ram Deputy MacEntee's words down his throat if this thing is discussed in public.

That is a threat.

No, it is going to be a very pleasant operation for me.

There are five more to follow Mr. O'Donovan.

Including, I presume, the Minister for Lands.

And the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

In conclusion, I will say that in so far as Deputy MacEntee tries to give this case a political complexion, he is doing so only because he is consorting and conspiring with the officer concerned in the case and that is a disgraceful role for an ex-Minister to appear in.

That officer has a better record of national service than Mr. William Norton has or the majority of the people on those benches.

Let me conclude by saying that I am quite satisfied to leave judgment on this matter to the intelligence of the people of the country who will not see it through the same jaundiced eyes as Deputy MacEntee's.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 2nd March, 1951.

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