Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 1951

Vol. 124 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 58—External Affairs.

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. MacBride)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1951, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain Services administered by that Office (No. 16 of 1924), including a Grant-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is for a token sum of £10. Its object is to secure the approval of the Dáil to the Consulate-General which was created in Western Germany in July, 1950. The total cost of our representation in Western Germany for the financial year 1950-51 is estimated at £4,424 which will be met by savings on other items. The staff of the Consulate-General consists of a Consul-General, a Consul and a typist.

Apart from its general function of maintaining consular relations with Germany, the new office will be particularly concerned with the expansion of Irish exports to Germany.

The conditions which govern international trade in the world to-day make it essential to maintain direct day-to-day contacts with governmental authorities in almost every country where we hope to sell Irish goods.

The work of trade missions is not confined to the solution of problems which arise from the existence of governmental controls. In addition, they have the duties of exploring the possibilities of new markets for their countries' products and of expanding existing ones. They advise on the economic conditions obtaining in the countries to which they are accredited and furnish reports on the market potentialities for specific commodities. They maintain close contact with business circles and trade organisations, and in general are in a position to furnish advice on all problems connected with the business of exporting to the country concerned. This type of work is of particular value in our circumstances since many Irish firms who produce goods for which a foreign market may exist cannot afford the expense of searching for markets abroad themselves.

Before the war Germany was one of our most important export markets and we had a Legation in Berlin which dealt with any trade problems which arose. In the last three years this trade has revived and in 1950 we sold nearly £1,500,000 worth of goods to Western Germany, which is now our fourth most important customer. The resumption of trade with Germany on a large scale was made possible by the conclusion of a trade agreement with Western Germany in July, 1949, and its renewal the following year. Under this agreement we have substantial import quotas for our products, and the efficient working of the agreement, which involves the periodic call-up of the quotas and the allocation of import licences against them, makes it essential to have continuous contact with the German Government Departments concerned. The volume of work involved is very considerable. To handle this work and generally promote the sale of Irish goods in Western Germany a Consulate-General was in the summer of 1950 established in Frankfurt, which was then the seat of most of the German economic ministries. This Consulate-General is now being transferred to Bonn, which has since become the German administrative centre.

A summary of our exports since 1948 shows that in the year 1948 we exported £75,000 worth of goods; in the year 1949, £396,000 worth, and in the year 1950, £1,491,000 worth. I ask the Dáil to grant this token Supplementary Estimate for this Consulate-General.

Mr. de Valera

A couple of questions occur to one in regard to this Estimate. The first is: was it not possible to consult the Dáil before the appointment was made? I think it is a very bad practice to present the Dáil with a fait accompli and then ask for the money. If there was a special urgency one has to take that into account, but I think that immediately the Dáil met afterwards it should have been presented with this Supplementary Estimate to get sanction for this appointment. I do not think that anybody can object to the appointment in itself. There is no doubt that Germany is a great nation and that there are great possibilities of trade between Germany and ourselves. Germany was represented here for a large number of years diplomatically and we hope it will one day be represented here diplomatically again.

I do not think that on any side of the House there can be an objection to the establishment of this Consulate-General. I mentioned the desirability of consulting the House in advance when appointments of this sort are being made. I think the need for that is growing more imperative every year. Both the total Estimates for the State and the Estimates for this Department are increasing by leaps and bounds. When the Minister for Finance of the new Government was threatening to come down with his axe on various services I thought that this particular service which was actually mentioned by the Minister was going to suffer severely. I knew that it is one of the hardest of the State services to get understood by the ordinary Deputy.

Small states, if they want to be represented, have to face a disproportionate expense in foreign representation. Seeing how slender our resources relatively are, one would expect that there would be very severe criticism of this particular Vote. In the year 1947-48, the total expenditure on the Department of External Affairs was in the neighbourhood of £186,000. Now, however, it has gone up to over £500,000. The Estimate for the service for the coming year is £515,000. In addition to that, there is a sum of £31,000 for European co-operation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should like to remind the Deputy——

Mr. de Valera

I am only giving that as an example of the desirability of the Dáil being consulted in advance about any new expenditure. I feel that I cannot quarrel with this appointment, but I do think that the time has come when we will have to consider very seriously every additional expense in any Department, including the Department of External Affairs. In defence of the expenditure on that Department last year, we had the plea made that the money was mainly required to bring the facts of Partition to the attention of other peoples. That is a very important service. I see no reason, however, why there should not be a special Vote so that the expenditure for that particular service can be isolated from other expenditure. That has so far not been done. But the point, at any rate, is that the time has come when we will have to consider seriously whether expenditure is not outrunning our resources.

It is, therefore, very important that we should have a careful consideration of every new expenditure. In any case, we ought not to have the Dáil presented with appointments which have already been made, if it is possible to avoid it. I agree that you have to make provision for exceptional cases. Sometimes things have to be done urgently, and it may be necessary, in the interests of the State, to empower the Department to make appointments. But that ought to be quite exceptional and, if it has to be done during a period of Recess and could not have been foreseen, immediately Parliament reassembles one of the first matters to be brought to the attention of Parliament should be the ratification of any appointments that have been made during that time.

Mr. MacBride

I am subject to correction, but I think I indicated, in introducing my Estimate last year, that I proposed to bring in a Supplementary Estimate for a Consul-General in Germany. I do not want to be tied to that.

Mr. de Valera

That may be, but even that should not interfere with what I regard as good procedure. Even if that general indication was given, when the moment for action came and money had to be provided it would have been better parliamentary procedure, in my opinion, to bring it before Parliament at that stage, and to indicate what were the services required and what was the expenditure likely to be incurred.

There is another point in this connection: under what headings have these savings been made since this extra expenditure has only to be met to the extent of £10? Possibly the Minister will give us some indication of that. I think it is useful to know in what direction savings have been effected. We have not been given particulars, but the Estimates state that savings have been made. The question then is, if savings have been effected, in what direction did we over-estimate? What were the things we undertook to do but failed to accomplish? These savings probably represent some particular step that was foreshadowed but was not undertaken, or some particular item of expenditure, in one direction or another, which ultimately had not to be met.

There is another small point of detail in regard to a sum of £159 for a Consul. I take it that is some additional cost that will be incurred. From the point of view of presentation, I think it would have been better if the total amount required for the post had been set out. I do not know whether it is usual to do that, but I think it would be a better system; the total amount required should be shown, including the official's salary as well as the other expenses, and any deductions by way of set off should be indicated.

I do not want to go into the general question of policy which will really arise when we come to consider the main Estimate for the Department. This expenditure is justified mainly on the ground that it facilitates and is likely to improve our trade position with Germany. The improvement of our external trade is of fundamental importance to the well-being of the country. I do not know to what extent the Department of External Affairs has accepted responsibility in relation to our external trade. It would be interesting to know what liaison now exists between the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Industry and Commerce. Arrangements varied in the past. At one time the Department of External Affairs took over a good deal of responsibility but that responsibility was largely transferred to the Department of Supplies during the war. It is of fundamental importance to us that our external trade relations should be carefully looked after by our consuls. In order to do that efficiently it is essential that there should be close co-operation between the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of External Affairs, and our potential exporters. At one time it was suggested that our foreign representation should be expanded in order to deal with this important matter. I think that suggestion should be followed up by the Department of External Affairs. That is the Department which should take initiative and which should urge on the Department of Industry and Commerce to greater efforts. The two Departments should be closely linked. It is not easy to arrange matters so that our consuls can do the type of work necessary to bring about an expansion of our export trade. They can do a certain amount but they cannot do as much as trade agents directly operating can do. I think we should consider now whether we should not expand our whole organisation in that direction.

It is easy enough for the Department of Industry and Commerce to produce statistics here in proof of what is being done. It is not so easy for the Department of External Affairs to do that and that is one reason why, since it is peculiarly vulnerable to criticism here, I was particularly anxious when I left office that that Department should not be crippled by any unfair or undue reduction in the amount necessary for its particular purposes. In my opinion we have now reached the other extreme. We have reached the stage at which we have to carefully watch and ensure that we are not spending beyond the limit the country can afford. There is nobody so dull-witted that he cannot find things to do if money is no object. If he has unlimited funds at his disposal he can do all manner of things, things which in themselves may be quite useful but which the limited resources of the country should not be asked to pay for; better results might be achieved with the expenditure of the same money in some other direction. That is always a problem where resources are limited. I think the danger point has now been reached unless there is a trade section which shows positive material results for expenditure. Anybody who can show any expansion of trade has positive proof to show that the expenditure is justified.

I did make a suggestion before as to another direction in which expenditure might be curtailed. We have a Council of Europe with a centre at Strasbourg. If that is to mean anything, it should be a centre in which one nation can make contact directly with the other nations in the council. I think that is how it should work if it is to be of any real or permanent value. That centre should be used by the several States of Europe represented on the council in order to bring about a diminution in the cost of their diplomatic representation in the various countries. This is something into which one cannot rush; one must consider it very carefully. The question is whether by having representation at Strasbourg one could not limit one's representation in Paris, Germany, Belgium, Holland, etc. I think that is an angle that the small nations in particular should examine. A single representation at Strasbourg would obviate the necessity for the present multiplicity of representation in the various States of Europe. We are not opposing this Estimate.

Captain Cowan

I have a few observations to make somewhat on the lines of those made by Deputy de Valera. One of the dangers that I can see in relation to the Department of External Affairs is that we can very easily overlook the fact that we are a very small country. I gathered from the Minister that the principal justification for this expenditure is because our exports to Germany have increased substantially over the last three years. Naturally, everyone must welcome that increase in trade. Looking at it from the broader point of view, that is the justification for the increased expenditure in the Department of External Affairs. There is a point which I have raised before and which I should like to mention again. The Department of External Affairs is getting a completely new type of work to do. The old idea was that it was a Department that dealt with external relations of a diplomatic nature rather than a trade nature. As far as I can judge, the Department of External Affairs now is dealing with matters of trade more than with ordinary diplomatic affairs. If that is so, is the Department properly constructed for that particular work? Are the people who represent us as Consuls-General, Consuls and representatives properly trained to carry out that particular duty?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is extending the scope of the debate.

Captain Cowan

No, I am not. I have no intention of extending it but I would just like the same freedom as the Leader of the Opposition got.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy is not insinuating that he is not getting it.

Captain Cowan

No, not at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Then the statement has no meaning.

Mr. Briscoe

He is convinced he is not; he is not insinuating it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The statement has no meaning.

Captain Cowan

I am not suggesting that at all. The one simple item that is before us deals with the appointment of a Consul-General consequent on the setting up of diplomatic representation in Bonn. The Minister has justified that on the grounds that it has brought about an increase in trade between this country and Germany which has resulted in exports to Germany in 1948 worth £75,000, in 1949, £369,000 and in 1950, £1,491,000. Obviously, I do not want to suggest that our representative in Bonn is not suitable for that type of work. I was only widening the scope of my argument slightly to deal with that particular aspect.

In the past few years the Department of External Affairs, undoubtedly, has taken a considerable interest and a considerable part in economic affairs and, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, nobody can object to this particular expenditure so long as it shows a good result. What I want to suggest is that trade development between this country and Germany may be accelerated by a different type of representative, one who is trained in industry and commerce and who has experience of what we can provide in the way of industrial exports.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is not this clearly a matter for the general Estimate?

Captain Cowan

If you will bear with me for just one minute, I will be finished.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is a long minute.

Captain Cowan

That is an aspect that properly should be considered on the general Estimate. I intend to raise it there but I merely availed of the opportunity to express some doubts as to whether the expansion of what may be termed the diplomatic aspect of the Department of External Affairs is the best medium for achieving greater trade benefits for the country. That is the only suggestion I will throw out. I have mentioned it before. To some extent Deputy de Valera adverted to it just now. As far as the particular Estimate is concerned, it certainly ought to be approved.

Mr. Derrig

I should like to ask whether any difficulties have arisen with reference to our trade with Germany by reason of the ban which the West German Government has found it necessary to impose on imports, owing to difficulties which have arisen with the European Payments Union, and whether these developments will have any disadvantageous effect on the course of our trade relations or are creating any obstacles. I hope that is not the case.

Perhaps the Minister would also inform the House as to whether there is any export organisation in contemplation, either by way of Government service or representative of Irish exporters who are seeking trade with Germany, and whether, if there is such an organisation, any assistance is being given by the Government to enable that work to be carried on and, if there is no such organisation, if the Government contemplate the establishment of an export organisation which would give exporters who are not in a very big way of business and have not the necessary experience of international trade, financial assistance and advice to enable them to secure a foothold in the German market.

Mr. Corry

I am very glad that this Supplementary Estimate has been brought before the House because it gives me an opportunity to deal with at least two items which are causing me great anxiety. I am anxious about the worries of my dearly beloved friend, the Minister for Agriculture, in finding a market abroad for butter. I would like to bring to his aid the Minister for External Affairs in this matter, particularly in respect of this Estimate, seeing that the Danish Government succeeded in selling to the American forces in Germany a large quantity of butter last year at the enormous price of 489/- per cwt., and in selling to the German people some 100,000 cwts., at 414/- a cwt. I think if the people over there for whom this Estimate is being passed did a little business in that line, it would be far better than selling to Britain at 271/- or selling in Paris at 98/- a cwt. less than the Danes get.

Therefore, I urge on the Minister for External Affairs that he should take that particular matter up. It might enable us to get rid of the very great question of getting an economic price for our agricultural produce. I would also urge him, now that we have, according to what the Minister for Agriculture stated recently—he has been tramping over the country looking for a market for the famous eggs we were to produce for Britain—a possible chance of another market, to take the matter up with Germany. I am sure that is a country where we could get a good market for the eggs. Perhaps in that way, on those two items alone, we might be able to relieve the pressure on the Minister's unfortunate colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, and we might get a good return and increase the relations between the German nation and ourselves.

We have now, it would seem, got over the fetish that was so often thrown in our faces when Fianna Fáil were the Government, of alternative markets. Now we are agreed there is, after all, a chance of getting a better price in alternative markets on the Continent than in Britain. I think more forward use can be made of our representatives in these countries by seeing that they are kept in touch, that they know what we have to sell, and if they can get a price for that which will not be a giving-away price, like they are offered by Britain at the present time, it will be all to the good. I am glad to have had this opportunity of calling attention to those two articles, namely, butter and eggs.

Mr. Briscoe

The Leader of the Party on this side of the House has, of course, pointed out that it might have been better for the Minister to have come to the House a little bit sooner to explain this Supplementary Estimate. Since the intervention of Deputy Cowan, I want to say to the Minister that I regard the Department of External Affairs as a very important branch of our Government services, particularly with reference, apart from the diplomatic side, to helping the development of our exports. Deputy Cowan said that there should be some consideration given to the appointment of other types of officers than those we already have. From the knowledge I have and I will not say it is little, I would hesitate to make any suggestion which would alter the personnel of our external affairs service. I happen to know, not of my own experience, but through many people whom I have met, that we have been fortunate in the services the officials of that Department have rendered to this State, wherever they may be.

There is one problem that arises. The Minister more or less explained the Supplementary Estimate in relation to the development of trade with Germany, justifying the appointment of this Consul-General. I agree that is a good reason but, like Deputy Corry, I have great fear that unless that Department continues to interest itself in trade relations with other countries after they have arranged a trade agreement, we are going to fall very steadily. The Minister for External Affairs must know that the Minister for Agriculture in his Department has his own external affairs trade relations over and above and in spite of the External Affairs Department. The Minister must know that that will not be conducive to a good understanding.

We make trade arrangements with foreign countries. There is a long discussion specifying the items which will be exchanged between the two countries. The Minister for Agriculture then comes along and explodes the trade agreement by disposing of the goods elsewhere that have been committed to the particular country with which we have concluded the agreement. I would like to see these services continued under the control of External Affairs. Our officials, wherever they may be changed to, have always understood our needs and how to put those needs before the people of other countries. I would not like to see any other type of personnel attached to it than already exists. The Minister ought to use some restraining influence over what Deputy Corry has described as his unfortunate colleague.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise now. What the Minister for Agriculture does cannot be criticised on this Estimate.

Mr. Briscoe

I will put it this way. The Minister for External Affairs arranges a trade agreement with Germany resulting from which a development of trade takes place which warrants the appointment of an official of that Department. Now we are not able to carry out to the full the sense of the agreement.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is really to approve of the appointment of a Consul to Germany, nothing more. The Deputy may be able to raise what he wants to raise on the Estimate for the External Affairs Department.

Mr. Briscoe

All right. All I will say in conclusion, relating it specifically to this particular Consulate, is that I believe, and hope, the position will be continued whereunder persons who wish to do business with Germany will make their contacts through the Department of External Affairs and not through other Departments.

Mr. Coburn

I would like to support this Vote. I am fully conscious of the fact that we will have ample opportunity on another occasion to discuss the Department of External Affairs and therefore I do not propose to spend many minutes discussing this token Vote for £10.

I was particularly impressed by the information which the Minister gave the House and the reasons why this Vote for £10 has been introduced. He pointed out that, in addition to the good which the appointment of this Consul-General would do with regard to advising Irish firms engaged in the production of goods suitable for sale in Western Germany, there were other advantages. He gave the House valuable and encouraging information. He said that trade with Western Germany has increased within the past three years almost out of all proportion. Deputy Cowan said that between 1948 and 1950 its value rose from £75,000 to £1,490,000.

I am sure the appointment of this Consul-General, in addition to promoting trade with Western Germany, will have other beneficial results. I am sure the person appointed will have all the necessary qualifications. Deputy Cowan need have no doubt that the Minister, in view of the position he occupies, will not appoint a dud, because that is what he said really means; that is the implication which Deputy Cowan wishes to convey to the House. I do not agree with that at all.

I should like to take this opportunity of voicing my protest against the cowardly and insidious attack made on the Minister for Agriculture. The introduction of this paltry Vote for £10 is taken advantage of by Deputies Corry and Briscoe to make an attack on the Minister for Agriculture.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This does not arise at all.

Mr. Briscoe

There was no attack on the Minister at all. We were merely defending the interests of the country.

Mr. Coburn

The Minister for External Affairs knows his own business.

Mr. Corry

On a point of explanation. I only got up to help the man.

Mr. Coburn

I think it is an insult to the House to have to listen to a point of explanation from one of your type in view of your language last night.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This has no relation whatever to the Estimate.

Mr. Coburn

I have risen to support the Estimate.

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Coburn now approves of what he formerly regarded as the mythical alternative markets, the markets he spoke against years ago. The Deputy is glad to have them now.

Mr. Coburn

I have a broad mind.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I should like to express agreement with the views expressed by Deputy Coburn. I think that the line pursued by Deputy de Valera was the correct approach to the Estimate—that we should consider technical questions as to procedure on an Estimate like this, rather than make an effort to introduce other matters of a controversial nature which can and should be discussed on the main Estimate. I have had the opportunity since the Minister spoke of consulting his speech on the occasion of his last main Estimate and I find that the Minister did state quite specifically on that occasion that he proposed introducing this Supplementary Estimate for the particular purpose for which it has been introduced. I am glad to know from the Minister's remarks that trade relations have improved and that the doctrine, regarding alternative markets has, under this Government and this Minister, a certain amount of reality.

Mr. Briscoe

You mean it has been accepted for the first time by the Party over there.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

The position is that previously there was merely talk about alternative markets but now some have been found. I think that the Minister should be congratulated by Deputy Briscoe rather than be gibed at for that.

Mr. Briscoe

I did not gibe at him.

Mr. MacBride

I should like at the outset to say that I did, as Deputy O'Higgins was kind enough to remind the House, mention the fact that it would be necessary for me to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to create this new post when I introduced the original Estimate. I am sure that Deputy de Valera will appreciate that it is not always possible to include in advance provisions for the setting up of a new post. There are a number of considerations involved that affect not merely the home Government but the Government which is the recipient of the new post. Deputy de Valera, Deputy Cowan and some other Deputies discussed the question of foreign trade in general. I am very glad to find that there is an appreciation of the importance of developing foreign trade. In my view it is absolutely vital for the improvement of the standard of living of our people and also for making provision for a higher population, that we should have a foreign trade. It is the only way in which we can provide the goods that will be required to maintain a higher standard of living and a higher population. I think the indications at the moment are that the population is rising and this renders the extension of a foreign trade a matter of urgency.

It is impossible to give complete control of foreign trade to any one Department. There are a number of different Departments involved—the Department of Industry and Commerce whose function it is to deal with manufactures at home, the Department of Agriculture, whose function it is to deal with agricultural exports, the Department of Finance, which is directly involved often on account of currency considerations and, lastly, the Department of External Affairs whose officers abroad really carry out a lot of the work.

The Department of External Affairs has shouldered an increasing responsibility in economic matters in the last two or three years by reason of the development of economic co-operation. The work of O.E.E.C. is largely channelled through the Department of External Affairs, since it has been the policy to establish an economic section in the Department that deals with this particular aspect of the work. There is also a section dealing exclusively with foreign trade in the Department. In order to co-ordinate the interests and the work of the principal Government Departments involved in foreign trade, the Government set up a Foreign Trade Committee, consisting of representatives of the Departments of Industry and Commerce, Agriculture, Finance and External Affairs. That committee meets at practically weekly intervals in the Department of External Affairs. In that way, the interests of the different Departments are correlated. I am glad to say that so far the results that have been achieved in the development of foreign trade have been very satisfactory. Before the war our export trade to countries, other than Great Britain, ranged between £1,000,000 and £2,000,000. In 1948 it was £5,5 million; in 1949 it was £5.2 million; in 1950 it was over £8,500,000—almost doubled in two years.

Apart from that, as Deputy de Valera has quite justifiably pointed out, the Department of External Affairs is often subject to criticism, and criticism which is easy to make frequently appears hard to rebut. I should point out that the Department of External Affairs has played an extremely important part in obtaining for this State a sum of 18,000,000 dollars through its work in connection with E.R.P. and O.E.E.C. Therefore, I have not the slightest qualms in justifying the expenditure of the extremely small sum incurred by the Department. I think I pointed out to the House on other occasions that the cost of the whole Department, including its offices abroad, is smaller than the cost of one single post of a major Power.

Mr. de Valera

Is that any true comparison?

Mr. MacBride

I think it is a useful comparison.

Mr. de Valera

Is not the annual expenditure provided for in the British Budget over £3,000,000,000?

Mr. MacBride

We have to do for our small country the best we can. We still have to contend in many cases, so far as Britain is concerned, with an organisation which is able to afford one embassy which is larger than our whole Department.

Another basis of comparison is the percentage which we spend in the Department of External Affairs in relation to national income or in relation to Government expenditure. These percentages show that we spend less than other comparable countries. These are consideration which, I take it, really would more properly arise on the debate on the overall Estimate.

Deputy Cowan raised a question as to the type of person required in relation to trade promotion. That is undoubtedly one of the problems. Largely in order to overcome that particular difficulty, we have selected in three cases trade attachés from outside the Department. Boards were set up in order to select them, and they were selected from outside the Department. The one difficulty, especially in a small service like ours, is that the officers have to rotate. It is bad from the diplomatic point of view to leave them too long in the one post or in the one service. That general policy has been accepted in all services in other countries as well. In the case of a purely trade or commercial attaché the reverse is the position. The longer he can stay in the one post the better. He acquires a knowledge of the trade in that country and makes contacts which can be valuable to him, and he should be in a position to remain there as long as possible. In the case of the three commercial attachés, we have one in New York, one in Chicago, and one in Paris, who is not whole-time.

In the case of Consuls-General, Ministers and Ambassadors, the position is different. The policy of the Department has been to ensure that each of these officers would acquire experience in the economic and trade fields as well as in the diplomatic field. The work of the Department is divided into diplomatic work, political work, consular work dealing with passports and estates and so on, economic work, trade, cultural work and information. The aim is to ensure that all the officers of the Department will have a reasonable grasp of the work of all these different divisions in the Department.

I think Deputy Derrig raised a question about the position of Germany in regard to E.P.U.—European Payments Union. Germany has had considerable difficulty in regard to payments. Various remedial measures were taken, but on the whole, so far, the results have not been extremely satisfactory. An analysis of E.P.U. countries' position at the end of January, 1951, showed that Germany was near, once more, the point of exhausting her credits with E.P.U. It was, as a result of that position that the German Government suspended most of its imports in order to make an examination of its existing imports with the view to eliminating the waste of foreign exchange. For the present, the suspension of imports is to be regarded purely as a temporary measure for that purpose, and does not, for instance, affect import agreements in which the payment of foreign currency is not due until after the 1st May, 1951. I hope that by that time the payments position will have been rectified.

Deputy de Valera asked how the necessary savings had been effected in order to enable the Department do with a token vote of £10. The savings were effected because a number of posts in some of our missions abroad had not been filled for the whole period for which provision was made in the additional Estimate. There was delay in filling the posts. He also raised the question of the salary of the Consul. The position there is that he only took up duty recently and, therefore, the portion of his salary which becomes payable to the Supplementary Estimate is for a very short period of time.

I think these were the main points raised by the Deputies. There is good co-ordination between the different Departments in relation to foreign trade. That co-ordination, as I have explained to the House, is maintained through this Foreign Trade Committee.

Mr. de Valera

Which is the driving Department? Is there any one person or any one Department charged with looking after the thing as a whole, to push it definitely?

Mr. MacBride

By and large, it is all centred in the Department of External Affairs, but you always have conflicting interests as the Deputy knows, between the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Industry and Commerce, and very often the Department of Finance. By maintaining a position of neutrality and by trying to provide a good service, the Department of External Affairs exercises a good deal of influence. I think that is the position in every Government in regard to conflicting interests between Departments.

Mr. Briscoe

Does Deputy Coburn now suggest that I was making an attack?

Mr. MacBride

Deputy Briscoe, in his exuberance at the outset, would try to lure me into a discussion on butter and agricultural policy.

Mr. Briscoe

Nevertheless, what I said was correct.

Captain Cowan

It may be due to my stupidity, but when I see all the letters of the alphabet used in regard to these various organisations, it makes it rather difficult for one to understand what is really being discussed. We have O.E.E.C., E.P.U., and the like in documents. I find it hard to make head or tail of them. It would be useful, I think, if we had the names of these organisations spelled out in full.

Vote put and agreed to, reported and agreed to.