Last night I listened with admiration to the case made by Deputy Lynch for the sitting of the High Court in Cork. No doubt both he and Deputy McGrath are most anxious that there should be a sitting of the High Court in Cork. I think that every Deputy of this House could make an equally good case for the sitting of the High Court in every town in Ireland.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).
There is nothing wrong about that.
Take Donegal. We have an ideal courthouse in Letterkenny, but I am not suggesting to this House and to the Minister that we should have a sitting of the High Court in Donegal. I do suggest that the solution of the entire problem is to increase the jurisdiction of both the District and the Circuit Courts. If the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court was increased to, say, £1,000 in contract and tort, then we would have very little necessity in rural Ireland for instituting proceedings in the High Court. After all, the judges presiding over our Circuit Courts are men of very high legal standing. The majority of them are men who have practised at the Inner Bar for a considerable number of years and I think they are capable of dispensing justice equally with any member of the High Court. Remember that when the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court was first fixed the value of money was much greater than it is to-day.
That would require legislation.
It would, but surely I am entitled to refer to the various arguments put forward by Deputies for the transfer of the High Court from Dublin. I am suggesting that a solution to the problem is to increase the jurisdiction of the District and Circuit Courts.
I shall allow the Deputy to proceed on this line within a certain limit.
I am suggesting to the Minister that, by increasing the jurisdiction of the District and Circuit Courts, there would be no necessity for Deputies of this House to request the High Court, as such, to go on circuit.
I suggest that the Estimate could be cut considerably by the closing of a number of Civic Guard barracks in rural Ireland. I know for a fact Garda barracks in this country which are manned by a sergeant and two Guards, the three of whom are married men. I also know that these Guards, in some cases, reside as far away as three or four miles from the Garda station. I further know that all these Guards have time to do is relieve each other for meals. It is quite true that these three men are each entitled to an hour for each meal per day and all they do—they have not time to do anything else— is to relieve each other for meals. The stations are closed from 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. I suggest that a number of these stations should be closed completely. If we had mobile Garda patrols at district headquarters we could save a considerable amount of funds which are now required for this Estimate. Mobile patrols, motor cycle or motor car patrols at district and sub-district headquarters, would avoid the necessity for these rural stations which are merely signing on and off offices for the Department of Social Welfare. I respectfully suggest to the Minister—I do not wish to anticipate the report of the commission which was set up by the Minister's predecessor—that he should give favourable consideration to the suggestion of closing down a number of these rural stations and setting up mobile patrols.
There is another matter to which the Minister should pay particular attention. It is the duty of the Gardaí to enforce the fishery laws just as much as it is their duty to enforce the licensing laws but how can they do so unless they are provided with patrol boats? In the days when Britain ruled this country, in all maritime counties we had the Royal Irish Constabulary and, in addition, we had the coastguard service. I am not suggesting that we should go back to that system but I do suggest that Garda stations particularly on the coasts of Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry, should each have a small motor-boat. We had one such boat in Burtonport for a number of years but, unfortunately, it was taken away. It would be very interesting if the Minister looked up the number of prosecutions brought against foreign trawlers by that particular boat. If we had these small patrol boats at each station in the counties which I have mentioned, then we would save expense on the Estimate for the Department of Defence because the corvettes, which are now patrolling the coasts at considerable expense, would not be required. These small patrol boats could assist the fishery officers and protect our inshore fisheries.
Last night, I think it was Deputy Gallagher who made a plea about the uniforms supplied to the Guards. I support him. I think it is ridiculous to see our Guards tied up in Prussian uniforms. I think it was Deputy Corish who mentioned that he was anxious to see them rigged out in sports coats. He did not go so far as to say flannels. I should like to see them rigged out in Donegal homespun, particularly during the summer months. I am quite serious in saying that. If it is good enough for the inmates of some of our institutions and good enough for some of the aristocracy of the country, it should be quite good enough for the Garda Síochána.
Again, an appeal was made last night for an increase in the force. I say that the force, as it stands at the moment, is over strength, but it is not properly distributed. For instance, at the seaside resorts during the summer months Gardaí are drafted in from all over the division to man the stations and carry out traffic and other duties associated with seaside resorts.
On the Channel Islands they have a very small police force, but to augment the standing body of men during the height of the tourist season they recruit through the labour exchange physically fit men who are unemployed, and I suggest to the Minister that unemployed physically fit men, possibly ex-soldiers, should be recruited to do duty at these seaside resorts during the summer months. In that way there would be no necessity further to recruit for the force.
It would be a blind alley job.
Call it what you like, it has been successful in the Channel Islands and in parts of England. The force is over-manned.
Next I would refer to the enforcement of the law regarding cattle found wandering on the roads, particularly in the Midlands. I might refer particularly to the road between Slane and Dublin. It is really terrible at night motoring on it. If we had a mobile patrol it would be very easy to effect prosecutions and save motorists from the danger they run when motoring along that road at night. I am not referring to cattle being driven but to cattle wandering on the roads, and the number of cattle wandering on that road at night is really disgraceful. A mobile patrol on the road between Slane and Dublin and on other main roads and tourist roads at night would benefit motorists.
During the period of office of the Minister's predecessor, one very progressive step was taken with regard to prison conditions, and I am sure that the present Minister is familiar with the improvements which took place when Deputy MacEoin was Minister. I would ask the Minister, in the interests of humanity, to give attention while he is in charge of this Department to the conditions which obtain generally as far as convicted criminals are concerned. I think that the question of the segregation of juvenile offenders from the older offenders is a very important one. It is a principle which has been recognised in every country in the world, and it is one to which I do not think sufficient attention has been given in this country. While there is a certain degree of segregation in our prisons between the juvenile delinquent, as it were, and the older criminal, I do not think it is sufficient. I do not think it is right that the hardened type of offender and a body of younger offenders should be housed in one building, and it is not in accord with modern prison treatment. Prison conditions generally here in Ireland leave very much to be desired and I trust that the Minister will give attention to that very important question, because punishment for crime which is misapplied, punishment which is too rigorous or punishment which is not based upon the examination of the individual case of each offender very often has the reverse effect to what is intended. Instead of reforming it can very often harden and make more difficult the reformation of the criminal. I hope that the Minister will endeavour to look on this matter with at least as much humanity as his predecessor and improve the system as far as possible.
I want also to draw the attention of the Minister, as representing a Department which has some responsibility for the organisation of Dublin traffic, to the absolutely nightmarish condition which exists in the city at the present time and which has existed. Apart entirely from the present alterations and improvements in the public highways undertaken by Dublin Corporation, a growing traffic problem has existed since the end of the war, a problem which is well known to every citizen, to every pedestrian, every cyclist and every motorist who passes through the City of Dublin. It is well known that if at certain hours of the day you wish to proceed by car from Dáil Éireann to Nelson's Pillar it will take half an hour or three quarters. Recently traffic jams have been known which extended from the middle of the North Strand across to Pearse Street and which lasted for half an hour to 40 minutes because of the repairs undertaken by the corporation.
I appeal to the Minister to charge the Garda authorities in the city with the responsibility of evolving a system which will ease the present intolerable position. I think that most people will agree that if one goes to Cork whence all good is supposed to emanate one must admit that the City of Cork has a far more effective traffic system than we have in the City of Dublin because of its organisation of one-way streets and so on. The flow of traffic across the main arteries of the city is the responsibility and very onerous responsibility of the Garda authorities and one must have the utmost sympathy with the Garda officers in the city, particularly the pointsmen and those who have the job of dealing with the flow of traffic because they are dealing with something which is in an absolutely chaotic condition. No effort seems to have been made for a number of years to introduce an Order which would make for an easier time for the Guards and a less worrying time for the motorists and cyclists. Cyclists as a body in the city have been very much criticised and some steps are felt to be necessary to regulate the right to the space of the carriageway as between cyclists and motorists.
I would ask the Minister as a very urgent matter, a matter of life and death apart from the loss of time and wear and tear on the nerves of thousands of people who go to and from work every day, to instruct the Garda authorities in the city to bring into existence a system of one-way streets and to improve the traffic regulations so that many of the present difficulties could be eliminated. I do not suggest that it would be possible to eliminate them all simply by introducing a new traffic system, but I do say that it would be possible to eliminate a great many of them. We are all very well aware that until such time as more bridges are constructed across the Liffey or until some method is found of easing the traffic on O'Connell Bridge and Butt Bridge such as the construction of tunnels or subways the problem will not be finally solved. The vast majority of users of the road in Dublin City and County, and indeed in the country, are convinced that methods can be found whereby the traffic position can be eased—and that is a matter to which the Minister should give his attention.
I want to refer now to the growing menace of destruction of public property, particularly as it affects my constituency. It may have been observed by the Minister and by other Deputies that during the week there was a discussion at the Dublin County Council in regard to the problem of the destruction of public property. It was instanced there that in one particular month, at a relatively lonely seaside resort, no less than a lifebelt which was there to protect human life was stolen. In other cases we have had instances of destruction of many types and kinds. The Minister should take steps to bring about a situation whereby offences of that kind can be punished in no uncertain fashion. The present punishments do not seem to act as a deterrent. The taking of a lifebelt, where it is necessary for the protection of human life, is a very serious matter and there should be a heavy punishment for it— if necessary even the punishment of flogging.
The matter of the accommodation of Gardai, particularly in rural and suburban areas, is a problem that requires immediate and sympathetic attention. A number of Gardaí who are married, some with small and others with large families, are stationed at various points throughout County Dublin and other counties. These men find it very difficult to obtain housing accommodation particularly in competition with the ordinary classes of people who are housed by local authorities, namely, agricultural workers, or labourers, or people living in condemned houses. As a general rule, the group of men to whom I refer and their families reside in flats or rooms of a comparatively better nature than those in which you will find agricultural labourers or labourers of other kinds. Therefore, because they do find accommodation in flats of that kind they are in a very unfavourable and unfortunate position in so far as the regulations governing housing allocation go. It has been stated that the provision of housing for these men is not the responsibility of the Minister for Justice and that they get an allowance for housing. I do not think it is realistic or just or fair to the Garda force that they should be left on their own oars in regard to this matter. The Minister, in conjunction with the Minister for Local Government, should take steps to see that where Gardaí and their families are in need of housing in areas in which local authorities are building houses their applications will receive favourable consideration by reason of the task they perform and the need that exists for having them in some contiguity to their barracks or station.
As I must be brief, by reason of the short time at our disposal, I cannot go in any detail into the remarks mainly by Deputy Lynch of Cork with regard to transferring the High Court to Cork or part of it. There is only one Cork Deputy in the House, but I should like to have it conveyed that I do not believe that Deputy Lynch's arguments on that point would bear examination. I wish they would be examined speedily and be debated in a calm way before this becomes a Party issue. Every second sentence of Deputy Lynch's speech contradicts the preceding sentence. There is no case to be made for transferring the High Court to Cork either on the grounds of delay or expense or anything else.
I want to say a few words with regard to the strength of the Garda force. There is a commission sitting at the moment and I hope that it will report soon. As far as I was concerned, that commission stemmed from a very excellent couple of articles produced in an ancient issue of the Garda Review. Garda conditions in this country were contrasted with police conditions elsewhere. The case has undoubtedly been made, from what Deputy O'Donnell said here this morning, that the Gardaí are overstaffed, but that their strength and value is dissipated in a lot of duties that could well be taken from them and not handed over to anybody else. I should like to discover how much of the time of the Gardaí of this country is occupied in trying to prevent people in rural areas from getting a drink after hours. It is a task which is unending and fruitless. Yet it occupies a considerable amount of the time of the Gardaí who could spend it better otherwise, or have it left on their hands. I think that the statistics are available in a very easy form. The Minister might give us the statistics as to the number of police we have in this country to, say, each hundred of the population, and he might give us the crime figures at the same time so that the two things can be contrasted. It will then be seen that instead of the Garda force being under strength, as has often been complained, they are over staffed.
I was glad to hear from the Minister last night that the pay of the Gardaí will be increased in accordance with the recent Civil Service award. Their pay has always been related to that of the Civil Service and once the Civil Service arbitration took place and an award was given it was almost inevitable, unless there was going to be a breach of all the traditions, that an increase would be given. At the same time, people wondered whether the Minister would give it when they remembered his very angry statement in 1949 about what Fianna Fáil was determined to prevent and would have prevented if they had got the majority for which they had been looking. They have not got it now but they were in a position of power——
What was that?
The increase in pay. The speech which the Minister made in Roscommon and which was reported in the Irish Press.
That is the speech that was misrepresented during the election.
If the Minister wants to read it he should do so. It was about the increase that would be given to civil servants and the allowances that would naturally be looked for by people in local authority employment, Gardaí and the members of the Army. The Minister said that this was a situation that Fianna Fáil was determined to prevent and that they would prevent it. Did the Minister not say that?
It was distortion.
It was published as an excerpt in the Irish Press.
They are to be paid back to the same date as the civil servants.
They are going to be paid because you got that instruction left behind for you. In any event, the Minister has not gone to Kilkenny like his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, to eat his own words as the Minister for Agriculture ate his. Maybe he will make the pilgrimage one of these days and then tell us what his new view is. The Minister has turned over a new leaf. I hope he will turn over another new leaf as well.
Court clerks were referred to last night. That has been a long drawn out proceeding because it was very difficult to get the position of these court clerks related to the position of civil servants. Varieties of compromises were suggested and, in the end, the full compromise was accepted. I hope there will be no delay in implementing what took so long to consider and what the Minister himself never brought to any conclusion when he was previously interested in this matter.
I do not think the Deputy did either. I do not think it is brought to a conclusion yet so far as I know.
It is brought to a conclusion in so far as another departmental anomaly has gone. If it is not brought to a full conclusion, it is within a hair's-breadth of it. I must say there is still room for the Minister to misrepresent that, but I hope that he will not take the opportunity.
When the Minister was in opposition he marked himself out by his splenetic and revengeful statements in regard to certain people in this country, people who were alleged to be criminals. In particular, he had a good deal to say about the man whom he and his colleagues called "Stalin's Agent". The mere fact that that individual is now a supporter of the present Government does not I suppose deprive him of his dual personality. The Minister has now had an opportunity of looking into whatever is on record with regard to that Deputy. I wonder will he tell us what he has discovered. I wonder would he be prepared to repeat again what he said when, without any information, he used to throw out a variety of slanderous comments with regard to that Deputy when the Minister was in opposition.
The Minister went into office full of enthusiasm to investigate the records with regard to I.R.A. procedure and proceedings, with regard to I.R.A. strength and the growth of I.R.A. strength about which he expressed so many fears when he was over here. Will he tell us if his fears have been allayed? If not, will he tell us what he intends to do with regard to the growing strength, if there is a growing strength, in relation to these bodies which were so much on the forward move just because the present Minister had left office?
Will the Minister clear up one thing now that he has a chance? Will he tell us who the people were who were responsible for the mutilation of a public document? A good deal of hankypanky has gone on with regard to a man who in this House is now masquerading as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I refer to Deputy Childers.
I think he is Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.
I suggest that is just an issue. I will make my point.
On a point of order. The Deputy is referring to Deputy Childers masquerading as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.
That man is masquerading as such, if he was not a citizen of this country when he was elected to this House; and I do not believe he was a citizen when he was so elected.
The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.
I am challenging that. There is in existence under the laws of this House a book which is one of the most important books in the country. It is a register of those who get certificates of naturalisation. The Minister knows there is such a book. In that book there is one page, and one page only, that has been mutilated and distorted. And that is the page on which Deputy Erskine Childers' name now appears. The Minister knows what I am talking about. In that book, and it is a very important book and a book which marks the addition to the strength of the citizens of this country by process of naturalisation, apart from the original naturally born citizens of the country, there are these additions. That particular book is governed by law. That particular book as it runs up to a certain page is in this form: there is one entry per page and any person looking at it can find out when a person got a certificate of naturalisation and the date on which that certificate was issued. The law says that the position of that citizen as a citizen of the country is that he has cast upon him the duties and responsibilities of a citizen from the date of the issue of the certificate. On the page on which Deputy Childers' name now appears there was previously another name. That name has been erased. Why? The erasure is quite clear to the eye. One does not require an infra-red lens to bring it up although the name could be brought up in that fashion. The erasure is quite clear to the naked eye. It is quite clear to the naked eye that there was a name previously on that page and that it has been erased. I do not think there is any date on the page.
One turns over a few more pages and one comes to a clean page with the name of Deputy Childers' brother on it. The official announcement that appeared in Iris Oifigiúil stated that these two people got their certificates at the same time; at least they were included in the same notices. Why was there all that difficulty? I can suggest one reason and that is that on the first day on which Deputy Childers made his appearance as a candidate for election, his nomination was challenged and the certificate was then remade after that date. The Minister can answer this quite simply. Is the page mutiliated? I suggest it is.
I never heard about it. This is the first thing I have heard about it.
The Minister can call for the book and bring it here and let us have it for inspection in the Library.
Is the book in the control of the Minister?
It is. He has to see it.
I must say this is the first I ever heard of it. Of course, the Deputy must throw out his spleen. The Deputy's Party murdered his father and he wants to murder him, too.
What is the spleen? That a mistake was made? I do not suggest a mistake was made. I suggest it was discovered that this man presented himself for election at a time when he was not a citizen of this State and a certificate was then given to him. I do not know what certificate was given to him. I understand the certificate is not dated. But under the regulations it has to be dated and it only takes effect from the date on which it issues. Let us know when it was issued, if it is dated and on what date this gentleman became a citizen of this country.
The old vendetta of 30 years ago.
It is on their consciences.
Thirty years ago.
This is a red herring now.
It is no red herring at all.
A red herring dragged across the trail.
His father would have saved this country.
Answer for your responsibilities. The certificate could have been issued if people had been efficient enough to do it.
A vendetta carried on from father to son.
Yes.
When the by-play is over we will get down to the concrete realities.
You should have asked a question about that. I got no notice.
The Chair is at a loss. The Chair does not know anything about the book.
And I do not either.
I am telling the Chair that the book is in existence, because I have seen it, and it is under the control of the Minister for Justice and the Irish Nationality Citizenship Act so lays it down.
The Deputy understands this is a very serious charge.
It is definitely a serious charge.
Perhaps the Deputy would allow me. The Deputy realises this is a very serious charge. A man is a member of this House who is not entitled to be a member of this House and not entitled to be a member of the Government. This is a very serious charge and surely there is a more regular way of making it.
I will not give up my right to debate.
I am not denying the Deputy his rights. This is a serious charge and should be raised in another fashion.
If the Chair will suggest another method of my raising it I will leave it over.
Go ahead. I will not stop you.
Is there any way in which the Minister would rather have this matter raised?
Go ahead as far as I am concerned.
There is the position. One name is erased and the notice in Iris Oifigiúil, as I said, puts in both Deputy Erskine Childers and his brother. But they do not appear either on the same page of the register or on succeeding pages. There are other people in between and when we come to his brother we find that he is on a clean page without any erasure having been made. I want to know why. There may be a simple explanation of it. It may have been an attempt to regularise a position which was allowed to occur through a mistake. But that mistake might have very serious consequences. I think we all know and it will be generally accepted that it is the right of the citizen, and only of the citizen, to proffer himself for election. It is the right of the citizen, and only of the citizen, when he becomes a candidate for election to pay certain expenses. On the part of anybody else it is a corrupt practice, and it is a corrupt practice which carries with it the consequences of disqualification. It is a corrupt practice which, if indulged in by a candidate for election, has the consequences of disqualification for life. Now, these are very serious consequences and they turn upon the page of a book. The Minister, if he wishes, can now explain to the House the full circumstances. If he does not wish to do so, I shall expose the matter later and let the Taoiseach come in here next week to deal with it. I suggest that that book was cooked.
I intend to speak only for a few moments on this Estimate having regard to the fact that the time allowed for the debate is limited. I congratulate the Minister on the fact that the pay of the Gardaí has been increased. It is an increase which is long overdue, but there are other things which are also long overdue and which have been under consideration over a long period of years.
I refer especially to the question of housing accommodation for married men in the Gardaí particularly in rural Ireland. In many cases married Gardaí are obliged to live apart from their wives and families because they cannot secure housing accommodation locally. The Minister is aware of that, and if he is not aware of it, I would ask him to inquire into the matter and try to ascertain the number of married Gardaí who are living apart from their wives. We have them living in one county while their wives live in another. They are deprived of the opportunity of living a family life because of the lack of housing accommodation for them. If these young Guards come to me or to any other public representative, we are not in a position to make any representations on their behalf because they will be severely reprimanded for asking us to make such representations. I ask the Minister what method of securing redress these Gardaí have, or what way is open to them for making representation either to him or to the Commissioner? The Commissioner does not seem to give them any consideration apart from putting the matter on the long finger. I should like the Minister to say what he would think if, in the early days of his married life, he were separated from his wife and children. Is it a good Christian practice or is it in accordance with Christian principles? When is the Department of Justice going to wake up to its responsibilities in this matter? This is a matter which has been frequently debated in this House from the time I first entered it in 1943.
I have no doubt that it was debated during the period of office of the inter-Party Government for the past three years but no redress has been forthcoming. There have been promises in plenty but nothing effective has been done. Let us hope that, in the lifetime of this Government, whether it be long or short, some effort will be made to provide reasonable housing accommodation for young men in the Garda who desire to marry or who are married. I say also that if a Garda makes representations to a Deputy or to any public representative, he should not be punished or reprimanded by the Superintendents or the Commissioner for doing so. He should not be sent as a punishment to a station somewhere in the backward parts of the West of Ireland. He should be entitled to make such representations.
As regards the Garda uniform, I think the present uniform should be changed, especially for the summer months. In their present uniforms Gardaí are tightened up to the neck, as if they were wearing a collar and hames. It is an unnatural garb for warm weather. I do not say, however, that we should adopt the suggestion of Deputy O'Donnell and provide them with uniforms made from home spun tweeds, but they should be given a lighter type of uniform, with an open neck shirt, that will admit some air instead of having them tightened up like criminals.
I should like to know from the Minister what authority or control he has in regard to the granting of licences for dances. Perhaps he has no control at all in that direction and that the power is confined to the justices. Is it necessary to introduce legislation to alter that situation? I may say that young people in the country are not anxious to have late dances. It has been stated that it would be unpopular to introduce legislation to ban late dances or to direct the judiciary to refuse licences for such dances, but I can state definitely that the young people of the country do not desire late dances. I attend dances myself and I have not yet met any young man or woman who is anxious to remain out until 4 o'clock in the morning, but what choice have they if the dance does not start until 12 o'clock? There is no country in the world where such capers are carried on.
I have travelled all over Britain from one end of the country to the other and I can say that if one were seen going home from a dance at 4 o'clock in the morning, one would be liable to be taken into custody. Certainly the police would want to know where you were coming from at that hour of the morning. Yet it has become the custom in this country to hold these late dances because there is no proper system of control. I suggest that it should be made a condition of these licences that the dances should start at a proper hour and should end at a proper hour. From the health point of view alone, apart from the Christian aspect of the matter, it is absolutely essential that we should end a system under which young boys and girls from 16 years upwards are obliged to remain out until 4 o'clock in the morning. They deplore that situation themselves because they have become conscious of the fact, as a result of propaganda over the wireless and of the various pamphlets which have been distributed, that it is not good for their health. No example nor no headline has been given to them in this respect.
Another matter to which I am very much opposed is the granting of permission for the sale of alcohol in dance halls. How is it that that takes place only when the middle classes or the upper classes use these dance halls? How is it that they set the bad example? How is it that they can procure permission from the district justice for the sale of drink in these dance halls? One would expect that these people would set an example for the ordinary citizen, but they are not doing so. I would appeal to the Minister if it is within the ambit of his powers, to instruct district justices to refuse permission for the sale of liquor at such dance halls. No matter who runs such dances, whether they be hunt balls, tennis balls or any other kind of dances, he should refuse point blank to give such permission. There are sufficient pubs in rural Ireland, too many of them, in fact, without landing them into dance halls, to sell drink from midnight to 4 o'clock in the morning. Nothing good comes out of it. The dance hall should be a place of recreation only.
Surely this is not a matter that is within the competence of the Minister?
Mr. Boland
I have nothing to do with it. It is the court which deals with it.
While the Minister may not have power to deal with it, and while I know I am not permitted to advocate legislation on an Estimate, I would ask the indulgence of the Chair to permit me to suggest to the Minister to consider the introduction of legislation with a view to ensuring that justices will not be allowed to grant licences for the sale of drink in dance halls.
The Deputy may not advocate legislation on the Estimate.
I admit that, but I have no other remedy. I suggest to the Minister that he should consider the suggestions I have made in that regard.
Deputy Dunne mentioned the matter of prisons. The Minister gave me a holiday on one occasion and I had a very short experience of prisons.
Mr. Boland
I certainly did not.
The Department under your control did.
Mr. Boland
The courts, I think.
I had a month's holiday and having had experience of prison life I would suggest that there is a good deal in what Deputy Dunne said here and that there is reason for reform. You do not reform the criminal by punishing him in excess of his crime. It is unfair that you should have young boys knocking about with hardened adult criminals up to 50 or 60 years who are taken into custody to-day for a particular crime and who come up again to-morrow charged with a repetition of the crime. The minds of young boys guilty of minor offences are warped by constant contact with such criminals. It is the wrong place to have these children—they are only children of 15, 16 and 17 years of age. Something should be done to segregate them so that they would not mix with adult hardened offenders.
I made suggestions here way back in 1947, before the change of Government, in relation to the reorganisation of the prisons, better treatment for warders, more off-time, and better uniforms. I wonder if the Minister ever put those suggestions into effect. If he did not—I do not want to prolong the discussion by reiterating them—I would ask him to reconsider them now.
Those are the few points I wish to make. There are many more, but, in fairness to other Deputies who desire to speak, I will content myself with asking the Minister to consider the suggestions I have made.
Mr. Boland
With ten minutes remaining, will the Minister have any chance of replying?
I would point out that the debate must be concluded by 12.25 p.m., and the Minister should be accorded some time to reply.
One matter to which I think no reference has been made in the discussion is the growing menace of the travelling tribes in rural Ireland known as tinkers. These people are not exactly tinkers. They do not indulge in the hard work of manipulating tin ware. They are to a great extent beggars and dealers in donkeys, goats and old horses and other similar types of activity. They inflict a very grave hardship upon people who live in remote rural areas, particularly people who live in houses adjoining seldom used by-roads. They camp upon these roads; they turn their horses loose upon the farmers' land and they take hay and firewood and all the goods that they require off the land. So far nothing serious has been done in regard to this matter. One of the things that could be done to remedy this evil is to give the local peace commissioner additional powers —the power, in the case of serious offences by those people against the property or against the liberty of individuals, to take them into custody pending trial. The trouble in regard to vagrants is that, if they are summoned for an offence, they will probably accept the summons, but by the time the court day arrives, they have melted into thin air and cannot be found. The powers of the local peace commissioner should be extended so that in a case where it is unlikely that the person charged will appear in court, the peace commissioner would have power to remand him in custody. I think that would help to eliminate this injustice.
People living in rural areas, particularly housewives who are left in charge of the house while their husbands are out working, find the tinkers a menace. It is not a very pleasant experience for a housewife living in a remote district, perhaps a mile from her nearest neighbour, to see two or three hulking young men appearing at the door or arriving in the middle of the floor, if the door happens to be open. I know that they only ask for alms, but their very appearance is frightening, and it would be a very brave woman who would refuse to help them. I feel that it is about time the law was tightened up in regard to this matter.
I would like to make another suggestion, and it is this. We should not, perhaps, direct the law against people who are regarded as the poorer section of the community, but any persons who have no fixed abode, even holiday-makers who have a tent or other mobile means of living, should be subjected to some form of licensing. In that way the activities of vagrants would be controlled to some extent.
I believe a deputation of farmers visited the Minister within the last fortnight complaining about the injustices they have suffered at the hands of nomads, and I would ask him to consider their complaints. They have to stay up at night guarding their crops and patrolling the roads. Not only have they to remain out of bed, but they have to gather together in groups of nine or ten, so that they will not be molested should they find it necessary to protect their crops from trespass.
I do not intend to detain the House more than two minutes, but I want to ask the Minister a question in regard to the Land Registry. I hope I am not repeating what some other Deputy has already said. There is an arrangement in the Land Commission, I understand, whereby applications for subdivision, by persons desiring to erect new dwellings, are given priority. I realise that there are great difficulties in the way of speeding up the Land Registry. At the same time, I would ask that some priority be given to applications for registration on behalf of persons who are erecting dwelling houses, because the loan and the second portion of the Government grant are very often not forthcoming until such time as the people are actually in residence. I would, therefore, ask for some amelioration on their behalf.
I was interested to hear Deputy Cogan speaking about tinkers. However, I cannot say that I agree with him, as I am for tinkers, not against them. I say, seriously, that they are part of the social fabric of this country. If we are bringing in legislation to curtail their activities, and I appreciate that their presence is not favourable to any section of the community, we must make sure that we do not interfere with their democratic rights. According to the Constitution the democratic rights of every person in the country, be he nomad or otherwise, must be properly protected. Undue powers must not be given to any peace commissioner or justice, powers which would in any way tend to outlaw these vagrants who, as I have already said, are part of the social fabric of the country.
Mr. Byrne
I should like to ask if it is the Minister's intention at a very early date to increase the strength of the Garda in the City of Dublin. The numbers are not sufficient to cope with the increase in the population during the last few years. The scarcity of Gardaí is very noticeable in all parts of Dublin. In our main thoroughfares the Gardaí are very scarce indeed. The Minister ought to do something to see that the main thoroughfares in Dublin are adequately policed. It is amazing how efficient the Gardaí are in the City of Dublin, the amount of work they have to do and how well they do it. It is not fair to ask two or three Gardaí to look after the welfare of the people in the principal street in all Ireland. I also hope that Garda stations will be provided in the new outlying districts. Under their new housing schemes Dublin Corporation are housing thousands of people outside the city and the time has come when there should be an inquiry into the requirements of these outlying districts. I ask the Minister to see that something will be done to increase the strength of the Garda and lessen the duties and amount of work which Gardaí have to do in the centre of the city.
I should like to draw the attention of the Deputy to the fact that it is now 12.20 p.m.
Mr. Byrne
I only take five minutes at any time. That is my limit and I will not detain the Minister. I should also like to ask the Minister whether he does not think the time has come for restoring the horse guards that used to help in traffic regulations some years ago. If we had a few horse guards doing duty during the last month in the city, going up and down the congested spots where there was a block in the traffic, they would have eased the situation very much.
Mr. Boland
I suppose I cannot get a short time to reply?
By agreement.
Mr. Boland
I am disgusted and amazed that Deputy McGilligan should have raised the matter about the nationalisation of Deputy Childers. He ought to be aware that if Deputy Childers' father had been allowed to live until 6th December, 1922, there would be no necessity for the Deputy to apply for nationalisation. That is apart from whether there was anything wrong or not. If there was anything wrong, I was not aware of it. I think it was most disgraceful that the Deputy should have raised the matter in the way that he did.
As to the pay of the Garda, the Garda are getting paid back to the same date as the Civil Service. When Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Finance he did not do that. He left it to me to do it and they were months behind. The strength of the Garda in Dublin is due entirely, of course, to the lack of recruiting. There was no recruiting for the last three and a half years and the over-all strength of the Garda, including officers, has been reduced by about 570. That should not be. I do not agree with Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy McGilligan that the Garda are over strength. I believe that if we had not Gardaí in these isolated districts to do non-police work it would have to be done at very much more expense by other officials. I think the Gardaí serve a very good purpose in doing work of a non-police nature. There has been talk about a single Guard in a station, like the village constable idea. But nobody is supposed to work more than eight hours a day now and three Guards in a station are only equivalent to one if they are to be given the same rights as ordinary citizens and are only required to work eight hours a day.
The matter of the District Court clerks has not been finished up yet. I thought it was finished by the passing of the recent Bill but there is still a hold up. I was amazed to hear the Deputy responsible for the hold up speaking in the way he did. Having had his share in holding up the matter, he tries to throw the blame on me.
I understand that the provision of a different type of uniform for the Garda would cost between £30,000 and £35,000. Anyway, I do not think it is a very big matter and anything I can do to have the Garda more comfortably dressed, I will do it, but we will have to have a fight with the Minister for Finance about it.
The question of free legal aid for prisoners is a matter for legislation. If the Deputy who raised the matter was an old Deputy I would have objected. He is a new Deputy, however, and he made his case very well and I will have the matter looked into. The principal thing I wanted to do was to reply to Deputy McGilligan and to say the few words I have said.
Vote put and agreed to.