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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Oct 1951

Vol. 127 No. 1

Private Deputies' Business. - Ballyfermot Housing Scheme: Differential Rents.

I move:—

That Dáil Eireann is of the opinion that the present level of differential rents in the Ballyfermot scheme is excessive and requests the Minister for Local Government to revise the scheme so as to ensure that only the wages of the head of the family are assessed and that the maximum rent to be charged shall not exceed 15/- per week with special allowance to be made for large families of young children, newly-weds, and unemployed.

I urge this motion upon the House because of representations which have been made to me, and I am sure to practically every other public representative in Dublin City and County, on the vexed subject of differential rents. It is necessary at the outset to examine the purpose of differential rents. Everybody is aware that since the end of the war housing costs have been at a very high level, and that it costs very much more now to build a house of any kind than it did in pre-war years. However, I want to draw attention to the method of renting which has been applied in the Ballyfermot housing scheme. Possibly the first public representative of this country to suggest a differential renting scheme was the late Councillor James Larkin. It was conceived at that time as a method whereby the hardships which working-class families ordinarily undergo in the society in which we live to-day could, to some extent, be eased. It was felt that there should be a differential renting scheme which would afford these families an opportunity of paying a rent in accordance with their means. I hope to point out to the House that in the course of the years which have passed since this scheme was first thought of and originated the whole purpose of the scheme has become perverted and obscured and that it is no longer being operated, at least in the Ballyfermot area, as a method for the easement of the difficulties of working-class families but is, rather, being operated for an entirely different purpose. The primary purpose of differential rents, not alone in this country but in other countries where the system was in operation long before we thought of it, was to render a little less difficult the problem of working-class families by allowing them, when they were unemployed or in difficulties, to have houses at lower rents. I am afraid that what has happened over the past few years is totally in conflict with that principle.

Dublin Corporation very often comes under fire from the rate-paying sections of the city, particularly from the more well-to-do and propertied rate-paying sections of the city, because of the alleged high rates. I am not concerned with the question of whether Dublin Corporation rates are high or not. They are, I suppose, at as high a level as the rates of any other local authority in the country. In the light of that, it is interesting to learn that Dublin Corporation contributes a sum of 3/2 in the pound in respect of charges which arise from the operation of the Housing of the Working Classes Acts. I do not think anybody will say that that is a very great demand upon the rates of this city for the housing of the vast mass of working-class people we have in this city. In fact, I suppose a case could very well be made for a larger contribution from the rates of the city for the easement of the high rents which are demanded of tenants of houses which are built under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts. Between the 1st April, 1926, and the 31st March of this year Dublin Corporation has built approximately 23,500 houses for working-class people. Immediately prior to the outbreak of the last war it was possible for a working-class family in Dublin City to obtain a four-roomed house from Dublin Corporation at a rent of 12/2 per week. In the area which this motion concerns, the area of Ballyfermot, there are working-class families who are being charged rents of 36/- per week, which is well over 300 per cent. of an increase on pre-war rents. It is to try to remedy this state of affairs, and to bring some consideration into the minds of people for the difficulties that families are having in meeting that rent, that I am raising this motion. I am aware that the Minister's function in this matter is merely an advisory one, but it is a function which should be exercised because it is very necessary at the present time.

In 1938-39 Dublin Corporation provided three-roomed cottages or houses at 9/2 per week. At present, the differential rents in the Ballyfermot scheme range from 7/6 to 36/-. The lowest rent of 7/6 applies to people who are almost totally destitute and the rent of 36/- applies to families where a number of the children might be employed. If the society in which we live to-day in this country is so constructed as to require a badly-paid working-class, and if the majority of the legislators of this country believe that that principle must prevail, then easement of the burden of working-class people must be made in some other way if it is not made by means of weekly wages. It devolves upon a Government and local authority not alone to build houses for working-class people but to provide them at reasonable rents. I do not think anybody will try to make the case that a rent of 36/- a week, or anything in the nature of that figure, is an equitable rent. Those who are being housed in the Ballyfermot scheme at present must reveal to the local authority the most intimate details of their family circumstances so far as earnings are concerned. That would be an inevitable part of any differential renting scheme but, in my view, a system whereby excessive rents are imposed, as in this case, will inevitably lead to deceit and evasion, and that is socially bad. If rents are fixed at a fair level, at a level which people will regard as reasonable, then the social difficulties to which I have referred are at least less likely to arise.

I understand that the economic rent of the houses which are being built at Ballyfermot is in the neighbourhood of 36/-. It is of interest to note that, in calculating the economic rent of these houses and for the purpose of imposing a differential rental system, no consideration is given, and no thought is taken, of Government subsidies, while we all know that, at the moment, Government subsidies in regard to this matter are reasonably substantial. We all know that the subsidy given by the central authority to the local authority has been reasonably substantial over a number of years. As I have said, when calculating the rents of the houses in Ballyfermot, no thought whatever is taken of the subsidies in arriving at the economic rent. I believe that is something which the Minister should take note of because what it means is this. It means that, under the system which is being operated, we have one half of the working-class population in Ballyfermot paying rent for the other half who are less able to pay. That is very wrong. I suggest that there devolves on the central authority of this State the duty of providing houses at reasonable rents. I regard the present system operating in Ballyfermot as being an exploitation and a deception of working people.

Last year, representations were made in this House by certain Deputies in regard to the operation of differential rents in other parts of County Dublin. One Deputy who is concerned in this particular motion, because he, apparently, wants to kill it by means of an amendment, sought in April of last year and, again, twice in December, to bring home to the then Minister for Local Government the tremendous hardships which the people of the county were suffering through the operation of the differential renting system. He urged upon the then Minister the need for increased subsidies for these houses as a method whereby rent levels might be reduced.

And I am doing it still.

Not only did he do that, but he went out on the hustings to speak on this. He had printed slips of paper, some of which I have here— this will probably disconcert him—and from the headings of these it appears that this particular Deputy was against differential rents.

And I am.

I am very glad to hear that. If that is so then his name should not appear on the Order Paper to an amendment to this motion. Perhaps he will not be so unkind as to suggest that he did not put his name down to it.

I put my name down, and I stand over it.

On the occasion to which I refer the Deputy made every effort to pin the responsibility on the then Government. He made every effort to put the then Government in the dock, as it were, in so far as high rents were being operated under the differential rent system.

Did not your Government and your Minister introduce it, and you supported him?

I never did what was done by Deputy Burke. As he is so persistent in his interruptions I will have to refer to him. I never told the people of the county that I was against differential renting. This motion does not say that I am against differential renting, but Deputy Burke, who is against differential renting, comes into this House and with an amendment tries to kill a motion which seeks to alleviate the position.

I beg your pardon. It does not kill the motion.

It will not kill it, but it is an endeavour to do that. Of course, that is only part of the political winding and twisting with which Deputy Burke is so well acquainted.

And Deputy Dunne also.

The Chair would like to hear Deputy Dunne on the motion without interruption.

It would be far better if the motion were discussed on its merits rather than in any other way.

It would not be a bad idea.

Under the system operated by the Dublin Corporation there are approximately 50 different levels of differential rents. Now, the imposition which the operation of this system must represent, so far as the local authority is concerned, and so far as expenditure on staff is concerned, has never been mentioned, but it must be a very considerable sum. The application of the system, I believe, is unjust. I base my case upon the system being unjust as at present operated. Not only do I believe that, but, further, I think it is bad economics. I believe it is a bad thing because it means that the people to whom most should be given, the people who make up the heart and the bones of this city, the people who keep our industries going and are badly paid for doing so—most of them—are not being looked after in the manner in which they should. They are not being provided, as they should, with houses at reasonable rents.

I am certain that a differential renting system could be introduced which would be acceptable to those people. I would urge on the Minister, at this stage, the advisability of considering the question of increasing the subsidies for the building of working-class houses. The subsidies at present being paid were fixed some years ago. I think the time has come when the central authority will have to endeavour to increase those subsidies, notwithstanding the difficulties which the present Government claims are facing it, notwithstanding the efforts of the Minister for Finance to convince the House and the country that we are all heading for doom and disaster, notwithstanding the gloomy report of the Central Bank, with its criticisms of the ordinary people who are trying to live in the hard way in which they have to live, and notwithstanding the impudent statements made in that report in relation to the people of this country.

Notwithstanding all those things, I believe that methods must and can be found for the raising of funds to increase the subsidies for the building of working-class houses. If that were done it would help towards giving a reduction in the rents of those houses. But even before that is done it is necessary, I think, to impress on the local authorities—the Dublin Corporation and the Dublin County Council as well—the need there is to take into consideration, in calculating the economic rent of working-class houses, the amount of the subsidies which are being given at the present time. That, however, is not being done. I see no reason whatever why the present situation should be allowed to continue. I do not think anyone could make a case for the imposition which is at present being made on working-class people going into these houses.

The differential rent scheme as operated in Ballyfermot has another effect—and a very bad one. Recently, as is well known to public representatives in Dublin City and County, Dublin Corporation tried to get a clear picture of the absolute housing demand in the City of Dublin. With that end in view they advertised in the newspapers inviting applications from all persons anxious to be housed by Dublin Corporation. Whereas it was thought by most people that there would be a flood of applications, possibly to the number of 25,000, there were approximately 8,000 applications. It was a matter of great wonder to everybody who knew anything about housing in the City of Dublin that there should be so small a number of applications. There was another advertisement published and a further approximately 1,000 applications resulted.

I would draw the attention of the House and of everybody concerned with housing to the meaning of that position. Living in single rooms and double rooms in the slums of Dublin, in unspeakably bad conditions, in hovels, in back yards, even in stables, there are families who are afraid to apply to Dublin Corporation for houses, because if they were sent to Ballyfermot or some of these schemes they would find the rents impossible to pay. That is a very serious development in our housing situation. It points to the fact that it is worse than useless to build houses if we do not give them to people at a fair rent. There are instances, which can be verified in the corporation, of people being rehoused in Ballyfermot from bad housing conditions in the slums and other such places, who went to live in Ballyfermot in the best of hopes that they could find a new life and rear their children in some kind of cleanliness and decency, and who were driven from there by their inability to pay the rent that was asked of them. Such a situation certainly requires review by the Minister of the day.

Persons who apply to Dublin Corporation or Dublin County Council for loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts, generally speaking, find the loans available in a relatively short time and are enabled to build houses for themselves by such loans and by availing of the Government grant. There are some thousands of such people living on the outskirts of the city. The repayments of the loan amount, broadly speaking, to 30/- to 45/- per week, depending on the standard of building, the size of the house, and so on. They enjoy two-thirds remission of rates for seven years. The house they occupy is a realisable asset. They have something which is very important: a degree of ownership. If misfortune befalls a family in such a position they have an asset in the shape of the house which they can realise. What right of ownership have the family taken from Gardiner Street, Summerhill, Capel Street, Waterford Street or any other tenement area and sent to Ballyfermot and made to pay 25/-, 30/- or 36/- a week? None whatsoever. Dublin Corporation have the same power as every local authority in the country. They can throw them out on the street without even giving them a reason. I realise that this problem is a financial one at base.

It certainly is.

It is because it is a financial one and because of the various interests that come to play upon it that the people concerned are suffering in the way they are. Mayo County Council levies almost six shillings in the £ in rates in respect of their housing charges. Mayo, as we all know, is one of the poorest counties in the country. In Dublin Corporation, the City Fathers of the Metropolis, where all the wealth of this country is aggregated, 3/2 in the £ is the contribution to the housing of the working classes. In Dublin, where there is a population of 500,000 and where the great profits of the mighty industries, such as we know them, are made, the contribution is 3/2 in the £.

I believe that this problem can be met if the Dublin Corporation and the Minister come into consultation in its regard; if, first of all, the subsidies which are already payable by the Government are taken into account in assessing the economic rent. That is the first necessary step. That would reduce the rent of every tenant in Ballyfermot by at least 5/- a week. There is no reason why the subsidies should not be taken into account. In fact, the only reason which was ever given to me for that system of not taking these subsidies into account is that it helps to reduce the rates. That is not the purpose of housing subsidies. The purpose of housing subsidies is to help local authorities to build houses. The local authorities have a duty also to contribute as far as their means will allow to the provision of houses at reasonable rents. Everybody who has had contact with the citizens in Ballyfermot knows very well the tremendous dissatisfaction that exists there in regard to this matter.

I am suggesting to the Minister in this motion that he should review the position and that rents should range between 7/6 and 15/- maximum. If we take the rent of a four-roomed corporation house in 1939 at 12/2 and the rent of a house in Ballyfermot at the present time at 36/- —an increase of 300 per cent. —and put on the other side the percentage increase in the wages of the workers who went to live in corporation houses in 1939 and the workers who are going to live and who are living in Ballyfermot in corporation houses, we find that workers' wages did not increase since 1939 by 300 per cent. Whereas their rents have. The highest estimate that could be given for the increases of wages of industrial workers in this city would be 90 per cent., and rents have increased by from 200 to 300 per cent.

I know that this problem is not peculiar to Ballyfermot or to the City of Dublin, or indeed to the county where it also represents a great hardship on working people. It is a problem which is becoming more difficult and more sharp in most counties throughout the country every day. Is it unreasonable that working-class families should be provided with houses at 15/-? It may be said, of course, and it has been said, that some working-class families to-day are earning very large sums of money between them and that they should have no objection to paying high rents, but people who look at the problem in a superficial way are apt to forget that, when the son or daughter of a householder, a working-class family, goes to work, he or she has to be clothed and fed and has to mix socially as everybody else has to do. Most of them hope some day or other to get married. There is no inheritance left for them when they come of age and no property from which they can draw dividends. They have to save out of the money they earn, the few shillings they earn each week, in order to marry and rear families. That saving, as we all know, takes long years of self-sacrifice, deprivation and hardship, but countless thousands of young couples in this city do it every week.

Under this differential renting system, what is demanded of them is not that they should plan for the future or endeavour to help themselves by saving, but that they should reveal their total income—and the wages of most young workers in this city would surprise many Deputies here because they are so low—to the corporation and the corporation then assesses the rent on the total family income. I think that is a bad principle. It is not alone bad but it is unworkable. It may be a good argument to say that the children should contribute to the rent—it may be socially good for them—but unfortunately the wages of the vast majority of young working-class people, if they are thinking of marrying, are not such as will afford them very much opportunity of contributing to anything, unless they want to live like hermits. I believe the assessment of the differential rent should be made upon the earnings of the head of the household.

That is the traditional thing and what we have been used to all our lives. The head of the family is responsible for the rent and that is what the heads of families throughout the city want. They want to be responsible for the rent. The method of the collection of the rent is a matter for themselves. The method of dealing with their own families is a matter for themselves. So long as we have excessive rents under a differential scheme, we will need to have continual invasion of the privacy of the home to find out what Jack is earning and what Mary is earning and what the other members of the household are earning. That is not a good thing. If we had a reasonable system of differential rents, that need not operate because people would not object——

The Deputy is now against the means test, apparently.

Deputy Dunne was fighting the means test before the Deputy was ever heard of.

What side are you on now?

And he will continue to fight.

You have done very well in the past few months.

It is a good thing to hear the voice of strangers once in a while. This problem of differential renting is one in which many Deputies, I am sure, will be interested. So far as the means test is concerned, I may say that I have never approved of the idea of the close scrutiny of the incomes of families which goes on under the differential renting system as at present operating and I do not think it is necessary in a fair scheme.

Does the Deputy favour differential rents or is he against them?

If the Deputy had been here in time, he would have heard me say that I am definitely in favour of differential rents. I never made any secret of that. Some gentlemen, being Tadhg an dá thaobh, last year were against differential rents but now are in favour of them.

Certainly not.

Let Deputy Burke leave it to Deputy Briscoe who has all the answers at his finger-tips.

I have them, and I will give them to the Deputy.

If Deputy Dunne would direct his remarks to the motion, these interruptions might not arise.

This obviously is a matter of importance when we find various Deputies contributing to the debate in this way. I hope to listen to them and to hear their views on the system at a later stage.

It is a cursed system. That is my view.

Decidedly.

I believe that a differential rating scheme can be operated, and fairly operated, but not in its present form as applying to the City and County of Dublin. I do not think that working-class families in the City of Dublin are in a position to pay more than 15/- a week at present for houses. Many of them are not able to pay even that amount, but double that and more than double that amount is being asked of them, and I want the Minister to look into the position. I am speaking in this matter for large numbers of people, and every Deputy who has any knowledge whatever of the city will know that this system of differential rating is causing continual trouble. I believe in the maxim: "From each according to his ability and to each according to his need.""According to his ability to pay"—I believe the ability of the tenants in Ballyfermot is being overtaxed.

Mr. Byrne

And Donnycarney.

Donnycarney as well.

Mr. Byrne

And Sheriff Street.

I take it that we have a similar position in Milltown.

And Finglas.

Deputy Burke will have a little difficulty shortly in explaining himself to the new tenants who are going out to Finglas.

I have never changed.

Tell that to somebody else. If ever there was a "lúbán," its name was Deputy Burke.

Or the arch-hypocrite, Deputy Dunne.

The Deputy must realise that there is nothing in this life but change.

Let us hear Deputy Dunne on the motion.

I have outlined briefly my views on this matter and I take it that I will have an opportunity later to reply to the movers of the amendment and I will be interested in hearing what they have to say. I put the motion to the House however, in the belief, as I said before that the system at present being operated is wrong and that it imposes too great a hardship on people in Ballyfermot and that a remedy can be found in reducing rent levels. I ask the House to accept the motion because the people of that particular area are very hard hit, very hard pressed, at the present time in having to face the rents imposed by Dublin Corporation.

I move the following amendment:—

To delete all words after "opinion" and substitute the following: "that the revision of the differential renting scheme for Ballyfermot is a matter for the local authorities concerned.

I was very interested when I read this motion on the Order Paper. I was interested in what was at the back of its movers' minds because I happen to know, as my colleagues on Dublin Corporation know, a great deal about this very difficult subject. All Deputy Dunne has said has proved to me one thing: he does not know what differential renting in fact means. In the beginning he took pride—and rightly so—in indicating that differential renting should be attributed to the late James Larkin, but he did not tell the House the approach of those who believed in it then and who believe in it now. In pre-war days it was easy to regulate the cost of housing, to fix rents in a normal way and, where rises took place—they might be insignificant as compared to the rises which now take place—to get the Government to give additional subsidy both by way of increased grant and of increased contribution to interest charges on money borrowed for the purpose of building houses.

I am not saying that Deputy Dunne is not honest in the thing, but I certainly say that Deputy Dunne has not spent very much time in examining this problem from its origin up to now. I would like him to go into the library of the Dáil and find out the great and rapid progress which was made between the year 1932 and the outbreak of war not alone in the actual building of houses but in the subsidising of such houses so that cheap, decent housing could be provided for the people of our country. Deputy Dunne is trying to cash in on a situation and I am going to show the House and put on record where Deputy Dunne is trying to cash in. It is very easy to go around among people who are suffering great hardship and organise them into vocal critics; it is easy to be the great leader who is going to get something for nothing, but Deputy Dunne has not been able to suggest to the House a way of doing it.

But I have.

You have made no suggestion. The Deputy said that he agrees with the system of differential renting, but that he does not agree with this particular form of it. He said that a remedy could be found, but he has not told the House which one.

You were not listening.

I listened the whole time, and I challenge the Deputy when he is replying to indicate to the House what remedy he can bring——

I will tell you now, as you were not listening.

I did not interrupt the Deputy when he was speaking, and I will not give way to him now. Take a few notes and answer afterwards at leisure and having considered the matter.

You were not listening.

Deputy Dunne showed us that his approach, his dyed-in-the-wool socialist outlook on the whole problem, was money. He leant over almost to the point of view held by Deputy Hickey that if we could only get money for nothing free of interest —look what we could do. We are not living in times, however, where we can produce money, create it and have it at our disposal for nothing. We are in no such fortunate position. We have to pay for it.

We can lend it at 1 per cent. or less.

The Deputy can speak on his motion.

I am pointing out where the Deputy is not correct.

I have a notion that when the Deputy has spoken on the Central Bank he will be sorry that he spoke because he will have tied himself up in so many knots that his reputation as a politician and as a leader in the country will have sunk even lower than it has now.

A Deputy

Impossible.

Deputy Briscoe should not put up his hand and shout.

Deputy Dunne referred to the members of Dublin Corporation but apparently he knows nothing about proceedings there although there are some Labour representatives on Dublin Corporation. We all differ politically in this House and form different groups and the corporation varies similarly, but this problem has been meticulously examined and analysed with a view to seeing what should be done. First of all let me give the House my interpretation, my definition, of differential renting. The first approach was made to it even before the war when houses were let at an average economic rent to all people but whereunder there was no possibility of giving relief to people whose circumstances had worsened since they took up occupation. When Deputy Dunne speaks of an average rent of 15/- per house in 1939 he does not realise that everybody had to pay that 15/- a week and that if the breadwinner of a household lost his job or died there was no means by which the corporation could bring relief to his family by reducing the rent. At the same time, at the creation of these houses, in the sense of subsidies and capital grants from the Government and from the community, they were meant for the artisan class, the working class. Deputy Dunne is allowing himself to be led by a few other agitators who are wiser than he is himself into making a case for allowing people into subsidised houses who have incomes of £40 or £50 a week coming into their homes.

Some of Deputy Dunne's friends went around and organised an objection to the corporation trying to find out whether a man who came as a working man claiming to be entitled to a house really owned two or three branches of a pork shop or something. They would still pay 15/-. Deputy Dunne talks about poor working people being exploited, but the Deputy is one of those in this House who were against the repeated crime of the corporation investigating a private home or individual, and who said that the corporation had no right to find out the earnings of an individual occupying a house subsidised by the workers although he might not even be a worker himself.

We decided that we would examine this thing carefully and closely to see what could be done. The first thing that concerned us was the case where the breadwinner had lost his job, become ill or died. We had to find means to bring immediate relief to that family without having to dispossess them of the house. Deputy Dunne has not told us that there are people, many people, in Ballyfermot to-day, unfortunate people in bad circumstances, who pay a rent of something like 7/6 a week or less. Every member of Dublin Corporation knows that the average rents received in areas where the differential renting scheme applies are not 30/- or 36/- a week. Deputy Dunne knows that, but it does not suit his case to state that here.

There are some people paying that.

I am coming to those. I represent the Ballyfermot area in so far as the City of Dublin is concerned and, when the extension of the boundary will be effected, I will probably represent, or contest for the purpose of representing in this House the whole of the Ballyfermot area. I know that attempts will be made to use what I am saying against me but I know also that the vast majority of the workers residing in those houses are sufficiently honest to appreciate our approach to the matter. The proof of that lies in the fact that the Labour Party who, in my constituency, took the view now expressed by Deputy Dunne, did not get even a single member returned to this House and their representation in the corporation went down to four.

That is proof of a good personation machine in your constituency. That is all it proves.

The general election is over.

Deputy Dunne talked about pre-war rents. It is true that pre-war rents were, by comparison with present-day rents, much lower, but does the Deputy not want to admit that when the average rent was in the neighbourhood of 12/9, or whatever it was, the wages of the workers were relatively much lower? Does he suggest that the worker to-day is earning exactly the same as he earned in 1938 or 1939? Does he suggest that the cost of building materials has not gone up? Let us be quite frank and straightforward about the matter. Not only have wages gone up 100 per cent. for workers in the building trade but output has gone down considerably. I say that without fear of contradiction.

And consequently the cost of houses is dearer.

Now we are getting it.

You are getting it.

You are getting it.

I am giving it to you. I am telling you the truth. A house which cost £800 before the war costs £2,000 to-day.

They are not working hard enough for you.

I did not say that. I said that output has gone down. I am not complaining about it. I am telling you the truth. Wages have gone up and, by arrangement with trade unions, output has gone down, and, consequently, the cost of houses has gone up. You who have benefited by increased wages and a lesser output now want a reduction in rents. Is that a common-sense way to approach this problem? All of us in the Dublin Corporation are trying to agree on this question. We certainly agreed that a further step should be the reduction by 1/- a week of the rent in these houses, under a differential renting system, for every child in the household under 16 years of age who is not working. In the case of large families of eight or ten, there will be 8/- or 10/- a week reduction on the economic rent fixed by way of a further subsidy by the rate-payers of Dublin. Deputy Dunne never heard of that. A calculation of the increase on the rates to meet that particular benefit is 4½d. in the pound. Deputy Dunne takes figures that are of yesterday and uses them to suit his purpose. The figure of 3/2 in the £ on the rates of Dublin in the subsidising of houses was, in fact, the figure of 18 months ago. Since then, quite a number of houses have been built. I do not know the exact figure. By the time our proposed housing schemes have been fulfilled and when we reach what we think will be the immediate needs, there will be approximately 6/6 or 7/- on the rates as a result of the efforts of the Dublin Corporation to meet the housing need and tax the community to bring it about.

What is the cost of building a house—roughly?

I said before, over £2,000. Deputies Cowan and Byrne are here. They can say whether I am approximately correct.

A penny in the pound brings in £10,000.

Deputy Dunne says, "Ah, there is no difference." That is the mentality with which this matter is approached. It is only the big business man who should pay additional rates. Deputy Dunne can read his speech afterwards and correct me if he likes. The Deputy said that the business community could afford to have additional charges on the rates for this purpose.

I said that all right.

I am glad you admit it.

I do not deny it.

The Deputy does not realise what he is saying. The vast amount of our rates come, not from the unfortunately small amount of business we have in the sense of ratepayers but from the working classes and the citizens themselves. Those are the people who are paying. Each neighbour has to pay for the other. It is not a question of putting 100 per cent. on the rates of some business men in Grafton Street. That will not bring much relief. Every penny in the rates means £10,000. If we put 5/- in the pound on the ratepayers who are described as "big business," it would not go very far. Our city is a big city. We have a vast number of people living there. They are all ratepayers and a substantial sum comes in from them. Of course, the bulk of them are workers.

In making his case in connection with this differential renting system, the Deputy emphasised a half dozen times that the system is forcing people in Dublin into houses at 36/- a week. The Deputy did not trouble to find out how many houses there are in the scheme at 36/- a week. Neither has he taken the care to tell us why 36/- a week is demanded in certain cases. If the Deputy wanted to help his fellow-worker, help the community and help us while we are representing the people in these matters, he would advise the people to understand what it all means. Grants and subsidies for houses for the working classes should be applied to the working classes. There must be a limit to the income of the individual where such application is made. Those people who have a substantial income should be able to contribute to their own keep and not expect their neighbours, who are worse off than themselves, to be contributing by way of rates to a reduction in their rents.

The Deputy talked about houses on hire-purchase or what is called tenant-purchase. It is open to every citizen —particularly to those who are forced to pay the highest of our rents, as they would certainly qualify on the basis of income if they are in steady employment—to make application to the corporation to acquire a house on the tenant-purchase scheme. We are considering that. I do not think it can be suggested that Deputy Alderman Byrne is a particular lover of mine, but he will admit that we all sit down together to see how we can meet these things. One of the things we are in agreement on is to see to what extent we can make possible the right to every corporation tenant in Dublin to acquire his house under a tenant-purchase scheme.

But you have not got one at present.

Indeed we have.

In respect of Ballyfermot.

No, not in respect of Ballyfermot—and there is a good reason for that. You cannot expect people to be encouraged to become tenant-purchasers in a house which may not suit them in a matter of eight or ten years. We are not going to lure them in to buy houses and to create the asset—this notional asset which Deputy Dunne had in mind when he suddenly became a financier. He suddenly talks about the capital rights of the members of the working-class, when he can buy a house and create a vested interest, his equity, which he could sell when he wanted to move out. It is all right for the worker to have capital there, but it is all wrong for the business people.

He objects to the scrutiny, as he calls it, of the occupant of this house. He does not realise that there is a means test applied with greater force to the business community. I do not know whether Deputy Dunne ever had the privilege or the annoyance of having to pay income-tax, but if he were in business he would have to submit to the scrutiny of the Revenue Commissioners, and all through he would realise that that is where scrutiny begins and scrutiny exists. All we ask the applicant to do is to fill in a form and state the circumstances in his income if he wants something from the community. If you want something you must at least make a case to get it. There are means tests —unfortunately there have to be in present circumstances — and when people have to pay income-tax there is a means test applied. You have to be told how much you will be let keep for yourself, what benefits you get if you have children under 16, or if you have them at college, or if there is some other particular reason. The Deputy wants this means test on the people he abhors and hates without knowing the why and the wherefore; but he wants it for himself in a different way. When it comes to the acquisition of a house by the working class, there the Deputy agrees that capitalism shall reign supreme; but when it comes to getting the wherewithal to give that house to the working man, capitalism must be destroyed. The Deputy does not even know what he is talking about.

Did I mention capitalism?

The Deputy said that quite clearly—and I recommend him to go up and read his own speech before he replies—that under the tenant-purchase scheme, before he knew that every tenant is entitled to apply to become a tenant purchaser——

That is wrong. You have admitted he cannot in Ballyfermot.

He can. There is a scheme being worked out.

The difference between Deputy Dunne and ourselves is this. Deputy Cowan, Deputy Byrne and myself—I do not see others of the corporation here—are partners in a scheme to provide, amongst other matters, working-class dwellings which can be either rented or bought; and we are not going to suggest selling houses to our people, under any scheme whatever, unless we are satisfied that in the long run they will get something worth the money they are asked to pay. We are building special types of houses for tenant-purchasers. Go up to Philipsburgh Avenue and you will see houses we can sell with safety, guaranteeing that these are houses you can put your savings into. We are not going to argue that other types of house would be a good buy. We must protect these people against themselves, we bad boys of the Dublin Corporation.

The Deputy forgot something. During the period immediately preceding the end of the emergency, the then Fianna Fáil Government realising that house building had stopped, for the reasons well known to us, realised that with the increase in wages and the increase in the cost of materials and the other reasons, the cost of building would be very much dearer than it was pre-war. What did they do? I would like Deputy Dunne to listen to this.

Go ahead.

Did the Deputy ever hear of a fund called the Transition Development Fund? I do not think he did.

If you want to get insulting, brother, I will reply in time to you.

That was a fund established by the Fianna Fáil Government to give extra grants to local authorities in order that this increased cost could be met to a certain extent and thereby prevent an unreasonable rise in the rents of houses. The fund was one of £5,000,000 and it was used as fast as the houses could be built and given to the local authorities for the houses they were building. When the Deputy was a member of a Coalition Party that supported a Coalition Government——

As distinct from the present coalition.

——that Transition Development Fund came to an end. No further money was put into it. It was in the period of office of that Coalition Government that these tremendous rises took place in rents. It was in that period that the Ballyfermot scheme was started and almost brought to completion and none of the coalition supporters had anything to say all those three years.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Deputy should not be attacking Deputy Cowan, his partner in crime.

Deputy Cowan at least had the wisdom and courage to withdraw from that mixum-gatherum very quickly.

Mr. O'Higgins

He is now in a worse one.

He behaved like the donkey with the carrot.

We can all decide our approach to various matters. If we want to be frank and honest about it, we can say so. What I say I believe to be true. I am not making any propaganda. I am not misleading any people for the sake of trying to get a bit of support from some poor unfortunate persons who find themselves in a difficulty.

The Deputy has misled many people in this House. He and his Party have been misleading people for the last 25 years. I am not going to put up with this kind of stuff.

The Deputy talks about the terrible deception. How long has this been going on? It is only in the last three years that this deception, if it is deception, has been practised. It is in the last three years that Ballyfermot has been built and has come into existence. It is in the last three years that these people were housed. The Deputy stood for it and kept quiet. The Deputy is now coming in here and thinks he can fool the people into believing that the disastrous things they did in three years are what we hatched out in the last few months.

The Deputy knows that that is a lie.

We have heard this political whining to which the Deputy referred. I have a little political singing to do now.

There are people suffocating to-day in slums. We should deal with that and act more realistically here.

Does Deputy Hickey agree that when we give a poor woman a home at 6/- a week we are doing wrong?

There are people suffocating in slums and we should deal with that and not bring in extraneous matters.

Deputy Hickey can do another type of whining. We are talking here about the Ballyfermot scheme. We have the problem of the slums on our conscience and we are making efforts to defeat it.

The Deputy should be allowed to make his statement regarding the Ballyfermot rents.

What happened in Cork? Did they not build any houses down there at all?

What happened or did not happen in Cork is not relevant to this motion.

What Deputy Dunne wants now, in the present set of costings, is that houses should be built, as he said himself, to be let at no more than 15/-, with allowances for large families and newly-weds, and he says ways must be found to do it. I have not heard a single suggestion of the way it can be done. All I know at the moment is that it costs so much to build a house. The local authority has to get permission to borrow the money. They get a certain amount of support from the State by way of capital grant and remission of interest charges, and where there are these suffocating people in the slums they get a grant from the Government towards the relief of interest of 66? per cent. Of the cost of the interest charges, where there are condemned houses and they are relieving the slums. On the main houses it is 33? per cent. The fact is, one has got to reckon in pounds, shillings and pence.

I should think we have.

That is what we have got to do and the only way relief can be afforded is by a sensible approach by the local authorities towards preserving the rights of individuals and protecting those who need protection. At the same time, the local authorities should not go ahead in a harebrained fashion, causing a few people to pay unlimited sums of money to somebody at some time, from goodness knows where.

They do not mind lending money to England at less than 1 per cent.

I suppose the Deputy would like to have the money either dissipated altogether, thus arousing no comment, or kept here without being put to any particular use at no interest charge.

I would prefer to see it used here rather than lent to England to build houses.

There is no money lent for that purpose. The money lent at 1 per cent. is on short-term loans and the money lent for housing is on a long-term loan at different rates and for different periods. The sooner Deputy MacBride studies some elementary books on economics the better it will be for him.

Deputy Briscoe is in possession, and he is entitled to speak without interruption.

He is not entitled to speak in such a manner as to mislead the House.

Deputy MacBride can put the House right afterwards if he thinks Deputy Briscoe's statements are misleading. He is not entitled to interrupt Deputy Briscoe.

The amendment I put down to this motion is that the differential rents system generally and, in particular, with reference to the Ballyfermot area is a matter for the local authorities concerned. If and when the local authorities can design a scheme, or schemes, which can be put into operation and if they find they need further relief they can then make an approach as a united body to the Minister for Local Government with a view to finding out if further assistance can be obtained.

It is not a matter that can be settled in this House because it is highly technical. It is technical from the point of view of whether it is to be met from the people concerned. It is technical from the point of view of the actual housing, where they need to be built and how they are to be financed under the prevailing circumstances in the districts where the building is going on. There is no use saying we are lending money to England at less than 1 per cent. Any money which our Central Bank may lend——

There is nothing about the Central Bank in the motion.

Naturally if we had the money for nothing we could do it.

The Central Bank does not suggest that, anyhow.

We will keep to the motion.

I hope that this motion will be rejected and the amendment carried. I repeat that this is, in fact, a matter entirely for the local authorities. Each local authority must deal separately with its own particular problem quite apart from the problem of a neighbouring local authority. Nobody can suggest that the Dublin housing problem is on all fours with that of County Dublin, or on all fours with the housing problems of Cork or of any other city in Ireland. Ours is a huge problem that will take years to solve. Deputy Dunne talked about the advertisement of the Dublin Corporation and 8,000 to 9,000 applications for houses, and said it was because the applicants could not pay the rents.

Our problem is to eliminate slumdom and to create, as fast as possible, proper housing conditions for our people. In roughly under 20 years we have built almost 30,000 houses in the City of Dublin, and we estimate that we may have to build a further 20,000 before we will reach what one might call a proper easement of the position. We all know the difficulties, and I say to Deputy Dunne that he would be better advised to accept the amendment and to leave the solving of these problems, so far as they concern Dublin City, to the Dublin Corporation. We have had many consultations with a view to finding out how best to meet the situation. We would like to have it clear cut so that, as public representatives, we can say "that is what we have done and this is why we have done it."

It is easy to get up and make a case to increase this or to reduce that without having the actual responsibility of doing it. We regard ourselves in the Dublin Corporation as a very fit body of men. We can fight with each other, we can argue with each other, but at least we can present each other with this, that, in chamber, council, and particularly in committee, where we have no verbatim reports or no newspapers, each and every one of us has his own conscience to dictate to him how to do things in the best possible way.

I wish to second Deputy Briscoe's amendment and, in doing so, I shall consider Deputy Dunne's motion. He was very verbose in the House this evening. He challenged me as to whether I was against the differential rent system or vice versa. The good turns men do live after them, or maybe I should put it the other way —the bad turns men do live after them, the good ones are often interred with their bones. So, too, with Deputy Dunne and with the then Minister for Local Government when they first introduced the differential rent system into Ireland. Deputy Dunne states here that he is in favour of the differential rent system. There was never a system introduced into this country that has caused so much ill-will. Since its introduction three years ago in County Dublin each man and woman is spying on neighbours. They are saying: “Thomas Peter has a house for 9/- and he is drawing more money per week than we are. Peter Anthony has to pay 24/- per week, but Mr. So-and-So has a house for 9/- per week. He is working with So-and-So and he has an income of £15 per week.”

I say that the whole system is vicious, and I leave the whole blame on Deputy Dunne's shoulders, because he never murmured, at least that I am aware of, when this system was introduced. Even if the Minister for Local Government were a superman, he would not be able, with a stroke of the pen, to rectify this gross injustice which the Deputy, in company with the then Minister for Local Government, introduced. He instructed the various committees throughout the country to adopt it three years ago, and now he wants the Minister for Local Government to change it all as if he were Alice in Wonderland and could wave a wand. I really had some regard for Deputy Dunne until he brought this motion forward.

Are you against it or for it?

Deputy Dunne expects the Minister for Local Government to do what his own colleague, the Minister for Local Government, failed to do. It would have been very easy to stop the differential rent system at the beginning. It would have been very easy, before this system was introduced, to leave the Transition Development Fund there at that time and allow everybody to have a house at a reasonable rent. Instead of that he expects the Minister now in charge, after a few months as Minister for Local Government, to come along and clear the bad legacy of three years' working. If Deputy Dunne was in the Minister's shoes he could not do it. I am still strongly opposed to the differential rent system because I feel it has brought a tremendous amount of ill-will into our country.

You had better make a case for Deputy Briscoe.

I am defending the Minister on this thing. I attended a number of meetings throughout County Dublin dealing with the differential rent system and, if you do not mind, I was at a meeting recently in the Bakers' Hall, Gardiner Street——

We do not mind a bit.

We had a very nice meeting. Deputy Dunne was there, and Senator Tunney. My company was exceptionally good and we discussed things in a very harmonious manner, as I thought. At that meeting we were trying to get the tenants to organise as best they could in their own respective areas. The idea of the organisation was to try to get the person who was paying only 9/- a week rent to agree to pay a maximum of some given amount and to put this proposal to the Dublin County Council with a view to their accepting an average rent from everybody no matter who it was. This would abolish the bad system of one person paying 9/- and another paying 24/-. This whole system is wrong and it has created a great deal of ill-will in the country.

It was agreed at that committee that an effort would be made to organise all these rents. The next bombshell we got was from Senator Tunney. He said: "I am not going to vote that a person paying a rent of 9/- should pay 12/6 as an average rent." My colleague, Deputy Dunne, came along and he told them that he had a motion down and that he was putting it before the Minister for Local Government as soon as the Dáil would assemble. I became very annoyed that night but I said I would wait until the motion came to be dealt with in the House. I call that arch-hypocrisy of the first water, with not a shred of honesty or decency. During my time on the Opposition benches I dealt with the Minister for Local Government; I asked questions and I also asked them of the present Minister. I have always admitted that I opposed the differential rent system and I still oppose it.

At the same time it is expecting too much of any particular Minister to cure the bad deeds of his predecessor, because if Deputy Smith, the Minister for Local Government, were a thousand times better than he is, and if he had greater influence in the country, he could not come along and say to the Dublin County Council or the Dublin Corporation: "You will have to change your tactics altogether in regard to this rent system."

This system has always caused trouble and will continue to do so when you are dealing with this hypocrisy of one section of the labour element in County Dublin saying one thing and another saying another and trying to bluff the unfortunate people in Ballyfermot that they are doing something worth while for them. At the same time they are applauding the Minister who introduced the scheme. Now they want the Minister for Local Government to eliminate the scheme.

The reason I put my name to the amendment is that I feel that this matter will have to be handled first with the councils and corporations throughout the country. I would favour even now the Minister for Local Government inviting a number of experts on this system to investigate it thoroughly. I know Deputy Dunne agreed, of course, to the voting away of £5,000,000 from the Transition Development Fund which was responsible for the introduction of this accursed scheme three years ago. Then he comes along and challenges me in this House. This system has created a very bad spirit among the people of Ballyfermot—one family watching the other. If Mary goes to work the inspector will call and say: "Why did not you tell me that Mary was working last week." Peter was working two weeks ago: "Why did you not tell me so that your rent could be raised."

I only say, God forgive the Labour Party and the Labour Minister for introducing that scheme that has been responsible for so much ill-will since its initiation. I hope posterity will forgive them for all the bad feeling caused in our country in that way.

Mr. O'Higgins

Who was the Minister when it was introduced?

I am stone deaf as far as you are concerned at the moment.

Mr. O'Higgins

You are a stone, you mean.

Do not embarrass your Minister any more.

I suggest that the Minister should ask the Dublin Corporation to consider this whole system, not alone as far as the Dublin Corporation is concerned but the county councils and other bodies throughout the country. Deputy Dunne is cashing in on this thing by telling us that he has a motion that will cure all the ills. But he did not tell the meeting that day. I spared him that day because I said I would leave it for the Dáil. He did not tell the House that day that he supported the Minister in bringing in that system, that he believes in that system now and that he believes in it firmly.

I do not know if, even now at the eleventh hour, we can get down to discussing this matter away from politics completely, so that we can consider the injury that the differential rents system has caused in the country and the lack of goodwill that it has created amongst our people because an inspector in making inquiries will go to the neighbour two doors away or to some child whom he meets on the street to find out whether there is another child working in a particular house. Instead of building up goodwill and harmony amongst the people living on certain housing estates, it is building up ill-will. The bad turns men do live after them. So it is with the differential rents system which Deputy Dunne supported.

Mr. O'Higgins

A differential Shakespeare.

I do not want to detain the House too long but I ask the Minister to deal with the number of examples I have given him from Ballyfermot and other areas in County Dublin. I would ask him to consult the Dublin Corporation in regard to that matter. Deputy Briscoe made his case here so far as the corporation is concerned. He went into the question very fully but I will say that I am definitely opposed to the whole differential rents system. I suggest that the only way the matter can be solved is by bringing representatives of the various councils together to see what can be done to eliminate the viciousness that has been introduced into life in this country. A number of agitators have been busy in the matter.

I should also like to point out to the Minister that the newly-weds living in the Ballyfermot area feel that they have to pay very high rents in being called upon to pay 30/- per week for a three-roomed house. I know the Dublin Corporation may have its responsibilities but I suggest that it is morally wrong to ask a young married man earning £5 or £6 a week to pay 30/- a week for a three-roomed house in that area. Why is that? Just because Deputy Dunne agreed that the Transition Development Fund which was there to subsidise houses, should go by the board.

The Deputy should not repeat himself, he has said that already three or four times.

I apologise if I am repeating myself. I received a number of deputations from tenants in the Ballyfermot area and the more I hear of this accursed system, the more I hate it. The longer it is there, the more it will cause trouble and ill-will. I would therefore ask the Minister to request the Dublin Corporation to supply him with a report on these schemes. I know he cannot direct the Dublin Corporation to do certain things because we are living in a democratic country. Deputy Dunne knows that, too, and he put down his motion merely to embarrass the Minister. He knew he was responsible for the introduction of the whole scheme and, in fact, on a number of occasions he repeated the statement that he was in favour of the differential rents system. I do not see how Deputy Dunne can have it both ways. I have already supplied the Minister with details of cases of hardship in the Ballyfermot scheme, and I shall continue to do so where I think hardship is being imposed. Finally, may I say that I hope Deputy Dunne will tell the people of Ballyfermot that the bad deeds that he perpetrated when he was a member of the Government Party are still living, after that Government has passed out of existence. Perhaps he might be able to get them to forgive him because there are a number of them very bitter about it. I shall not make the case any harder for him because I know what a great man he is and how well he is able to bluff. I would not be trotting in the same street with him, so far as bluffing is concerned.

If that statement were true, he would indeed be a wonderful bluffer.

Mr. O'Higgins

The sight of the Deputy trotting is something that affects us all deeply.

Deputy Dunne expected the impossible. He expected the Minister to do what he knew the Minister could not do.

The Deputy has said that three or four times.

One cannot say a good thing too often.

That may apply elsewhere but not here.

He did not even read the motion. He does not know what he has been talking about for the last half-hour.

Mr. O'Higgins

He gave us Shakespeare's graveside oration already.

The motion deals with the present level of differential rents in Ballyfermot, and it has no connection with anything else.

I will finish now. I do not think I need say anything more about Deputy Dunne. I hope he will carry on outside the same hypocrisy that he has carried on in this House, but some day the people of County Dublin will find him out.

As has been pointed out, there is nothing either in the motion or in the amendment calling for the abolition of the differential rents system. In the motion a request was made to the Minister that as the present level of differential rents in Ballyfermot is excessive, to revise it, and in the amendment it is suggested that the revision of the scheme in Ballyfermot is a matter for the local authorities concerned. Deputy Briscoe, to my mind, made a very admirable case for the amendment, which suggests the appropriate way to deal with this problem as I understand it. Here in Dublin, as I see it, the system of differential rents is still suffering from growing pains and, not having reached maturity, it is causing a certain amount of annoyance. As one who, like Deputy Corry, at another time had had some experience of such annoyance, I shall give a brief recital of the problem and how it was dealt with elsewhere.

In 1934 a differential rents system was introduced in certain housing schemes in Cork. There were 1,000 houses in Gurranebraher and 500 houses at Spanglehill, and in order to provide for people who were being removed from unhealthy and insanitary houses and from overcrowded multiple houses, differential rents were fixed from 3/- to 18/-. Of course, there was some agitation for some time as to how these particular rents applied. A means test was necessary in order to suit the incomes and circumstances of the various families who got the tenancies of these houses.

In order to provide in some way for the varying circumstances it was decided that the first 10/- of the chief bread - winner's earnings would not be reckoned and that the first 5/- of every other earner in the house would not be reckoned, up to a maximum of 40/-. If you subtract that 10/- and the sums of 5/- to be taken into account and divide by six you get the rent of the family up to a maximum of 18/-. If the division by six was a lower figure, then that lower figure was the rent for the particular family.

For a time there was a certain amount of deception, if you like, particularly in regard to casual work by sons or daughters. In order that the residents in each particular area would have an opportunity of bringing forward their grievance and pointing out any other way to approach the matter, a public inquiry was called for. Inspectors were sent down from the Department to hold that inquiry and even those people who had combined in order to agitate and various others did not present any evidence whatever and were of very little help to the inquiry. Since then there have been very few complaints, as they got an opportunity of stating their case and did not avail of it.

Furthermore, children's allowances are not reckoned in the consideration of these rents or gratuities, or awards to members of the emergency Defence Forces or things of that kind. Instead, as Deputy Briscoe stated, of making a deduction of 1/- per head for members of the family under 16, the system adopted was to make the deductions on the lower figure of earnings amongst the members of the family. That system is going along very well.

If the tenants of these houses thought their position in life and their circumstances were such that they would not be unemployed or would not be casual workers at some time, they were entitled to claim the fixed rent of 18/-, and that was done in a number of cases in which there were no more inquiries as to wages or anything of that kind. But the corporation found, in order to provide for a big number of people in casual employment, such as dock workers who are employed when ships come in and who are unemployed when trade is slack, that a certain number of these houses would have to be kept on the differential rent basis. In recent years, the rents of these houses vary from 6/- to 30/-, calculated on the basis I have indicated. Of course, as these matters arise, various devices can be adopted to try and give relief to the families who deserve it. But, with the rising costs of housing at the moment, I think there is no other system which will enable local authorities to provide houses for people who have to be removed from unhealthy housing conditions and perhaps have not very much means or very bright prospects, except the differential rent system.

Of course, we have some other housing schemes in the city to which these people may be transferred as vacancies arise. But, taking it generally, the differential rent system is working well. Personally, I am in favour of it. In the year 1947, the cost of maintenance of some of these differential rent houses went up like the cost of everything else. In consequence, the lower figure was raised gradually and, instead of being 3/-, is 4/-, and the higher figure is 19/-. As I said, there are 1,600 of these houses and we find them of great advantage in housing the portion of the population to which I referred.

Before I call any other Deputy, I should like to remind the House that this debate closes at 8.20 p.m. or a period of three hours.

I do not suggest for a moment that the Minister should be the deciding factor in connection with differential rents because I do not think he could do it and it is a matter for the local authorities. It was regrettable to hear all the matters brought into the discussion by Deputy Briscoe and Deputy Burke about differential rents. Deputy MacCarthy has stated the position in Cork. While agreeing that we should have a differential rent system for those poor people who cannot afford the economic rent for a house, I am opposed to the tenants of the corporation being the only people to bear the costs of these differential rents. As far as I can understand that is happening in Dublin to a greater extent even than in Cork. If a man paying 18/- or 19/- becomes ill and cannot pay that rent, it is reduced to 6/-.

It is reduced to 4/-.

I believe that the difference should be a community charge and not be confined to the tenants of corporation houses.

That is not spread over the others.

If a man is paying a rent of 36/- in Dublin because the income is a large one, what is the economic rent of that house? As far as Cork is concerned, we have to bear in mind that some of these houses were let for a number of years at 12/- or 13/- and when the differential rent system came in the rent went up to 19/- because of the increased earnings of the families. I am living in a house on which the landlord cannot increase the rent because of the Rent Restrictions Acts. But public authorities are at liberty to raise the rents as they are not bound by the Rent Restrictions Acts.

While agreeing that it is desirable to have a differential rent system in order that people with small incomes should not be subject to eviction because they cannot pay the economic rent, it is wrong that tenants in corporation houses should have to pay the full differential rents in order to make up for the deficiencies of the people who cannot pay. Deputy MacCarthy pointed out that 10/- is deducted from the earnings of the chief bread-winner, 5/- from the earnings of other members of the family, and that the income is then divided by six. We had a very long discussion when that system was brought in and we were advocating that one-eighth of the income should be earmarked for rent, but it is fixed at one-sixth. We should not, in connection with this matter, be attacking each other or trying to score points. I say it is wrong that Corporation tenants only should have to make up for the differential rent of persons who cannot pay the economic rent. That is what is happening in Cork.

I cannot see how the Minister can intervene in this, as it is a matter for the local authorities. There is a good case to be made for the differential rent system. I am not supporting the motion, but I cannot agree that the balance of the rent should be levied off the tenants of corporation houses. I think there is a case there for investigation. I can give the House an illustration in Cork. We have something over 3,200 houses. The differential rents range from 4/- or 6/- per week to 18/- and 24/- per week. The cost on the rates of housing in Cork is only 3d. in the pound. That is evidence that the tenants in the Cork Corporation houses are making up by the differential rents for the people who cannot afford to pay rents.

Did the Deputy say that housing represents only 3d. in the pound in Cork?

That is all. It was 2d. up to last year.

There are old schemes where the loans have been redeemed and where the houses are now producing profit rates.

I will not agree to having a differential rate and I do not say for a moment that the Minister can be asked to decide on a matter of that kind. To those who are moving the motion, or the amendment to it, I would say that the tenants in any of the corporation houses should not be the only people to pay for the differential rents associated with the corporation.

Since I took office as Minister for Local Government the subject of differential renting is one to which I have endeavoured to give as much thought and study as I could. While trying to be brief in telling the House the conclusions at which I have arrived perhaps it will make what I have to say more convincing if I confess at the outset that the differential renting system was one which never appealed to me.

Or to anybody.

As a matter of fact all my prejudices were against the system and it may be that some of the immature conclusions at which I have arrived were influenced to some extent by the housing problem as I saw it in relation to county council rather than in relation to bodies dealing mainly with built-up areas such as those here in the City of Dublin and in the other cities and large towns throughout the country. I have seized upon every opportunity that presented itself of discussing the problem with those who have definite views upon this matter. I have read everything that I could both for and against the system. I think that the conclusions at which I have arrived cannot be regarded as being in any way prejudiced by a view I held in advance.

The one difficulty in dealing with this system arises out of the fact that when one meets a Deputy or a member of a local authority it is very difficult to get them to make up their minds as to whether or not they are in favour of the principle of differential renting. I noticed that tendency on the part of Deputy Dunne this evening. I try at all times to think clearly, and if I am in doubt about some particular matter, such as the one involved in the consideration of this motion, then I wade through everything I can find in order to clear my mind.

It is no use my saying I am in favour of the principle of differential renting and then proceeding to stipulate one condition after another, conditions which may have the effect of satisfying those who are the tenants under the differential renting system in the local authority areas. It is no use accepting that principle and stipulating a number of conditions the acceptance or application of which will have the effect of knocking the bottom out of the system. I would invite those who have responsibility for this problem, whether they be Deputies or members of local authorities, to face up to the matter and to ask themselves the simple question: Is it possible for the State and the local authority to solve the housing problem having regard to the cost of housing now unless such a system is introduced? Would it be fair to ask the taxpayers in this small and relatively poor country and the rate-payers—many of whom, as Deputy Briscoe has pointed out, are very poor people—to provide houses for individuals and families whose incomes are known to be sufficient to pay an economic rent.

Of course nobody is advocating that.

Not until one listens to some of the speeches made on a motion of this kind. Deputy Dunne has cited the case in Ballyfermot of some families paying a rent of 33/- or 36/- per week.

36/- he said.

Admittedly that appears to be a high rent, but before we express our opinions too freely upon a matter of this kind would it not be better for us to find out for ourselves on what income that rent is based?

Or the economic rent of the house for which 36/- is being paid.

Fan anois. Wait a while. The Deputy is not trying to break my train of thought and reasoning I hope.

Certainly not.

Before we come to answer the question which I posed as to the acceptance or otherwise of the principle involved we have got to consider a second question. If the principle is accepted, let us decide for ourselves how the family income should be determined. Is it fair to say, as some Deputies suggest, that the family income should be determined solely and entirely by the wage or income, whatever it may be, received by the head of the household? Is that a fair proposition? Would it be fair, for example, to ask the ratepayers and taxpayers of this country to subsidise a house for the head of a family who was in receipt, say, of £5 or £6 a week down to the level of that wage, while other members of his family were in receipt of £15 or £16? Let the advocates of the system and let the critics of the system clarify their minds on this issue.

I received a deputation from the area to which this motion refers and that deputation stayed with me from 3 o'clock until 7.30. It was not the only deputation I received on this subject and I can assure the House that there was no aspect of this question into which we did not go. While I am posing these questions to the House I want the House to understand that this is primarily a matter for the local bodies all over the country. These local bodies know the provision that is made by the State from the sums made available by the taxpayer for the rehousing of those who require to be rehoused. The Minister for Local Government and the Department of Local Government have, naturally, an obligation placed upon them to see that the money that is provided by the taxpayer, and the contribution that is made from the rates, is devoted to the rehousing of certain limited classes of the people who want to be rehoused, and that those whose earning capacity is substantial will not be allowed to steal in upon these two sources and impose an unreasonable burden upon them.

I know as well as any man in this House how effectively one could speak outside as to the undesirability of officials of the Dublin Corporation or the Cork Corporation or officials of any local bodies probing into the affairs of the household. I suppose that if I wanted to go on the hustings myself I could make a case attacking all the undesirabilities of that system, and many of them would occur to my mind without any preparation whatever.

As some Deputies have stated, this is a practical problem. I am a countryman and I believe in and love ownership. Naturally, any man with that sort of background wants to see that that sort of principle will apply to every other citizen in the land, whether it be in regard to the ownership of a house or anything else. I have said that I have been reading a little. In the course of what I read, I came across some evidence that was tendered before a committee of inquiry in Dublin in 1938. It will bring home to any reasonable man or woman the sort of problem with which all concerned have had to deal in recent years, having regard to general tendencies in prices and so forth. The evidence was given by an official who had intimate connection with the rehousing activities of the Dublin Corporation. He said: "There is the man who cannot pay rent. My sympathies are more with that man than with the man with a small family who can pay rent. But if a man cannot pay I must leave him aside." Later, this same official makes the following statement: "If the tuberculous case cannot afford to pay rent for a house he cannot be transferred even though he is a very deserving case. That man has to be passed over on the grounds that although his case is very urgent the corporation is not able to suit him. The case has to be postponed."

Would the Minister say who that official was? I take it that it was a public court.

It was the allocation of tenancies officer. I did not know myself who he was. The inquiry was held in 1938. Deputy Dunne stated that he is not against the principle of differential renting—yet in his motion he stipulated the maximum rent that should be charged to any tenant and he has indicated what the minimum should be. Even if effect were given to what is provided in the motion in that regard, grave injustice could be done not only to the taxpayer and to the ratepayer but also to the person who would be obliged to pay the minimum rent, because the income of the person who would be getting away with the maximum rent might be 20 times greater than that of the person paying the minimum rent. I should like that there should be no attempt to score one off another in regard to this matter. I have not the slightest desire for such an activity. This question is too serious for that. The difficulties with which the State and the local bodies are confronted are too great to be treated in such a manner. I am prepared to concede that if you want to be destructive you can flitter the system with a sort of half-hearted acceptance of it, with questioning the inclusion of this item or the exclusion of that item, with raising the question as to what contribution is being made by the person who is paying an economic rent towards the provision of other houses for people of the lower income classes.

To my mind, that is unfair and unjust. It is an indefensible case to make. There is no substance and no truth in it. I am not saying that the case is being deliberately made in the sense of stating an untruth, but I say it in the sense that I would advise and hope that those who have that feeling or belief would examine the question further. Certain numbers were quoted of people who are paying 30/- a week in respect of houses. Deputies may take it that these rents were arrived at on the basis of what the family income is. I ask those who are critics of that rent to say, should it be the head of the household only whose income would be taken into account in calculating the differential rent? Is it fair to ask an unmarried daughter, or an unmarried son, who is living in the house, to pay a portion of the rent if it can be shown that the income of the whole household is from £18 to £25 a week? Is it fair to ask the classes I have mentioned to contribute, and is it not right and reasonable to say that the income of the father, who is the head of the household, plus the income of every adult member of the family— that portion of the income which the local authority determines—should be included in the calculation? If one of those boys or girls gets married and breaks the family connection, then, of course, they have their own lives to face, and their income can, and must, be excluded from the calculation.

I would ask those who say that that is an unreasonable approach, and that it is an unjust method of calculating the family income, to say it so clearly that the public will understand it. When they mention a rent of 36/- a week in Ballyfermot, I ask them to let the public know that that rent is based upon the known income, and that the rent of 36/- is only the equivalent of what is necessary to meet the State and the local authority outgoings in the provision of these houses, because it is not true to say that it makes any contribution whatever to the provision of houses for the poorer classes.

In view of the fact that this House, in its housing legislation from 1932 onwards, has written certain priorities into the Housing Acts which the local bodies must observe and follow, would it be correct to allow a system to continue such as that which is described in the two extracts I have quoted from this official of the Dublin Corporation in regard to rehousing people, such as tuberculosis cases, and others unable to pay rent? Surely, when we write into our legislation certain priorities we must see to it, in co-operation with the local authorities, that effect is given to them, and that the preferences that are there expressed will be carried out. I would like to see some way out of the difficulty, but the only way in which I can see that being done is by the adoption of some system such as this differential renting system.

I have quite a lot of material here before me, but I do not think I will have time to deal with all of it. I do not fit in well with a situation in which my time is limited. There is just one point, however, which I would ask Deputy Dunne to consider. He referred to the contribution made by the Dublin rates to the rehousing of people in need in Dublin City. In the course of his speech he took a certain view. He, or anybody else, is entitled to take that view if he is convinced that it is the right view. He seemed to think that the contribution might be greater, especially in regard to certain ratepayers in the city. What I am going to ask him is this, and I am not doing so in defence of the ratepayers whom he has in mind. Suppose it were conceded that these ratepayers could and should make a higher contribution, what case could Deputy Dunne make for allowing another family, whose income could be clearly shown to be round about £25 a week, to be rehoused at the expense not only of the ratepayer who could afford to pay, but of the ratepayer who could not afford to pay?

Since I came into this Department I have tried to approach this matter in the most objective way that any man could approach it.

I have in mind many clear and unanswerable points in favour of some system to which I never felt I was wedded. I would like very much to see some person apply his mind to those points and knock them down if he could. But, listening to Deputy Dunne, I said to myself: Supposing Deputy Dunne is right and that there are ratepayers who should pay more, that the rate in Dublin is too small for rehousing as compared, say, with the rate charged in County Mayo: supposing he is right in his advocacy along those lines, why should he say that a family with the sort of income to which I have referred should not meet its full commitments and pay the full economic rent? Why should a family in such circumstances, if it is possible for it to get a new house by any other means, say, through the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act and by means of a grant—if the case is a sustainable one and that it could rehouse itself under more favourable circumstances—be subsidised by the local authority in Dublin or anywhere else, while there are thousands of people with low incomes who have to be catered for and are being catered for?

There is one other extract that I would like to give from the evidence and the conclusions that were reached by the committee to which I have referred from the evidence of the official of the Dublin Corporation from which I have already quoted. This is what is said:—

"For a very large percentage of working-class families it is impossible under the present renting system for the corporation to house them ... and a system of variable renting, related to individual capacity to pay, or differential renting, as it is commonly called, is essential."

These men were not one bit anxious, nor was I, to have officials employed by that local body probing into the affairs of anybody. They did not want to have an official asking the man or woman what did the man earn last week, what did the daughter earn, what did the son earn, what is the total income of the family, if there was a suspicion that lies were being told. The people who arrived at this conclusion on the evidence before them were just as anxious as any of us is not to institute such inquiries, not to make themselves responsible for a system that would result in such inquiries being made. The general position, the housing difficulties, the amount of the State contribution, the enormity of the task that local bodies had to face, were considerations that forced them and me and others to speak in favour of the system.

Deputy MacCarthy mentioned the fact that in Dublin the position appeared to be somewhat different from what it is in Cork. I find it hard to understand why that should be so. The only explanation one can find is the fact that the system has been in operation longer in Cork City than in Dublin. I am not in the least surprised to hear that not only in Dublin but in other centres there is some prejudice and hostility to it because it is only natural that people who struggle and strive to get a house should proceed to protest if the conditions on which it is given are not satisfactory.

There is one thing that is very wrong and it is happening in the Ballyfermot area. It is wrong in every respect, whether it occurs in Ballyfermot or elsewhere. It is, to attempt to create the impression in an area where the differential renting system operates that those who are paying an economic rent are contributing to the rehousing of the poorer people in the same area. They are not.

As Minister, I am always prepared to meet the representatives of local bodies on this question. If they want to discuss amendments with me, if they want to revise the method by which all these things are arrived at, they will always find me open and ready to discuss and reason the thing out with them, whatever time it may take.

I understand, as Deputy Briscoe says, that the Dublin Corporation are in course of re-examining the general conditions of this system as it applies here. I should like that the local bodies concerned, when putting up propositions of any kind to me as to the operation of this system, would make them comprehensive, and, if two, three or four aspects of the problem occur to them, that they would come to conclusions on them and make recommendations in regard to them so as to enable me to arrive at a proper and balanced decision.

I do not desire to monopolise the limited time available to us on this motion. If unlimited time were available I could discuss the issues involved here at greater length. I was a local councillor. I know how easy it is to fall for those who feel dissatisfied. The masses who are satisfied pay their rent. The small number who are dissatisfied are loud and truculent. There is always the temptation to a public man to make himself the spearhead of that group. Let all of us, all the Deputies, the mover of this motion and those who have different ideas and views on it, face up to this problem in an objective and realistic manner. Unless we do that, we cannot hope to progress with the speed that we desire in the rehousing of our people.

Send a copy to Deputy Burke of your last comments.

I agree with what the Minister has said that a problem of this kind deserves the most serious consideration of every Deputy and every member of the local authorities concerned. I find myself in complete disagreement with the system of differential renting. Unfortunately, the system had been introduced in the Dublin Corporation before I became a member of that body. Since I have become a member of the Dublin Corporation I have endeavoured at every opportunity to point out to my fellow councillors what I believe to be the objections to this particular system.

As far as Dublin is concerned, the man who was responsible for the introduction of this system was, I understand, the late Councillor Larkin. He was chairman of the housing committee, and he pressed very strongly for this system of differential renting. But, Councillor Larkin had a completely different conception of differential renting from the system that has been put into operation. He believed in a system whereby a person who became ill or widowed or in any way rendered incapable of paying the economic or graded rent on the house would be entitled to a reduction in rent. He never conceived that for every such person benefiting, ten other people would have their rents increased. I may say about my predecessors in the Dublin Corporation that they passed the motion bringing into operation differential rents without giving the problem consideration.

While agreeing that this is a problem that must be discussed and debated on its merits, it is right to say—Deputy Dunne and everyone should realise this —that in Dublin the family income must exceed £11 a week before the tenant is asked to pay the maximum rent. It is only fair that that should be stated.

Mr. Byrne

Family income?

Mr. Byrne

Not the tenant?

No. The family income may be made up of the father earning £6 a week, a daughter travelling in on the bus every day and earning £2 a week, a young fellow earning 35/- and a younger lad £1 a week. These sums are totalled up to make a family income of £11 a week, but every one of us knows that the young boy or girl earning 35/- or £2 a week in Dublin, paying bus fares and paying for lunch in a canteen, while helping to clothe himself or herself, is unable to pay a penny piece towards the rent of the house. That is an aspect of the situation which is overlooked by the people who say they want differential rents.

When I went into the corporation, I was told that Cork started this system. I only wish they had kept it in Cork. They did start prior to the war to build houses at rents of a maximum of 18/- a week. That was in 1934, but since then—Deputy MacCarthy will correct me if I am wrong—scarcely 200 houses in Cork have been put under differential rating.

One hundred and ninety-six.

Since 1934? No. There were over 2,000 houses built in Cork and they were all put on differential rents.

I am accepting Deputy MacCarthy's statement that fewer than 200 houses have been put on differential rents since 1934. I admit that at the moment they are considering a scheme which may or may not be differential renting when it is completed. On the principle advocated so much here and outside, the principle of the home and the position in that home of the father as head of the family and as tenant, if there is a system of differential renting, it is his income which should be taken into account and not the family income built up in the way I have indicated. One of the things we are taught day after day is that the family is the vital unit and that the father is the head of that unit. We cannot get away from that and that is the principle which ought to operate in local authorities and in the Government. I do not know who was the officer of the Dublin Corporation in charge of the allocation of tenancies in 1938 when he advocated differential rents, but I think I would be safe in saying that he had no authority from the elected representatives of the city to advocate differential renting in that year.

I do not think the Deputy is fair to the official in saying that he advocated differential renting. What he did say was that there was a problem which he and the corporation could not meet under the system as it existed. He was merely stating facts and not making suggestions as to how the position should be met.

I accept that, and I will put it this way, that he did make a case for a system of differential renting that would enable him to house certain classes of people. That could be done without putting everybody under a system of renting, whereby ten people would have their rents increased for every one who had his reduced. Dublin Corporation worked, up to July twelve-months, on a system of graded rents which I have yet to learn was a bad system, and when differential renting was put into operation in Dublin in July, 1950, the corporation passed a resolution that no person would be involved in the new system except new tenants, and they kept out of the system of differential renting 24,000 or 25,000 houses and flats.

That is one of the practical difficulties we met in the corporation. Had the whole 25,000 or 27,000 houses been placed under differential renting there might not have been the same objection as there is, but one of the strong objections to this system is that it is applied to 2,500 new tenancies every year and that under it a means test is operated and a spirit of spying inculcated—a system of secret reports to be sent in by neighbours about neighbours: that Johnny in such-and-such a house has got an increase in wages—a system which can do considerable damage in a community. I look on that as one of the objectionable features of differential renting. I think that if a person has tuberculosis he ought to be in receipt of an allowance sufficient to enable him to maintain himself and to pay his rent. I am strongly in favour of that. Similarly, if a person is ill and incapable of working, he ought to be in receipt of an allowance sufficient to enable him to feed himself and his family and pay his rent.

The Minister has mentioned, and, from the facts at our disposal, we know that he is right, that there are people living in corporation houses who are tradesmen earning, because of the circumstances of the moment, substantial wages. They are earning good wages now but a few years ago they were walking the streets idle and, in many cases, hungry. Because they are tradesmen, carpenters, plasterers, bricklayers, there may be going into these houses as much as £40 in the week, but the number of these cases in Ireland is not big. Still, these cases are used to argue that you cannot compel the ratepayers to subsidise the rents of people earning these enormous sums of money in the week. These, as I say, are not common cases. Deputy Byrne and I, representing a constituency in north-east Dublin, know that these are not the conditions in very many of the corporation houses in our constituency. We know that even with £9 and £10 a week going into a large family, with the cost of living what it is, that family is not in a position to pay a maximum rent of 36/- a week. Food, clothing, boots, and so on, have to be purchased; bus fares and lunches have to be paid for; and there is very little left. The position is that the vast majority of these tenants are having great difficulty in making ends meet.

Deputy Briscoe mentioned a matter which, I think, is important, and it was mentioned by Deputy Dunne, too, in a different way. The big problem, as I see it, in Dublin is that we have 30,000 families living in corporation houses. In ten years' time we hope, please God, to build another 25,000 houses; that is, 55,000 families in the City of Dublin will be living in corporation houses. I think that is wrong. I think it is a situation that must alarm any man who will give sufficient consideration to it. The problem is that 55,000 families will be living in houses owned by the corporation where there is an average repair bill on the corporation of £12 per year per house. In those 55,000 houses will live between 300,000 and 400,000 citizens. In other words, in ten years time much more than half the population of the City of Dublin will be living in corporation houses and the other half will have the responsibility perhaps of subsidising every one of these houses.

That is a situation which must alarm any person who considers it seriously. It is because of that, that we in the corporation have taken the decision on principle to sell to the tenants who are willing to buy their own houses and to encourage them in every way by the terms we will give them. There will be no deposit to be paid and the amount they will have to pay in repayment of the moneys made available will differ very slightly from the rent they are paying at the moment. Those tenants will, however, take the responsibility on themselves of maintaining their own houses, painting them when they should be painted and doing the little repairs which now cost the corporation £12 per house. We are starting this scheme with some 200 houses in Philipsburgh Avenue; we are submitting proposals to the Minister and I hope that he will approve of the proposals put forward because it is the beginning of what I conceive to be a magnificent scheme to encourage people to own their own houses.

Whatever system of society a person favours there is one thing which everyone should have and should be encouraged to have and that is the ownership of his own home. I am strongly in favour of that. We in the corporation are working out schemes whereby in Ballyfermot and elsewhere tenants will be encouraged to purchase their own houses. In that way this enormous, this frightening, number of 50,000 or 60,000 corporation houses will be reduced and I am satisfied that a very big number of the tenants will be anxious to avail of those schemes and become the owners of their houses.

I appreciate that the time is limited and that Deputy Dunne wants some time to reply and consequently I, like the Minister, will leave my contribution at those few observations on the system.

I have said that I am opposed to the system. I am opposed to it and strongly opposed to it. I can see Deputy Dunne's difficulty. He says: "I am opposed to the system, the present system in operation, but I am not opposed to a system of differential renting." That is a very difficult position to be in. No matter what system of differential renting you have, the most objectionable features will still be there. You must be either for the system or against it and I make no apologies for being against it.

Deputy McGrath rose.

The Deputy will remember that Deputy Dunne must get at least five or ten minutes to reply.

I only want to say that in Cork at present we are building houses under the fixed rents system and are building houses under the differential rents system. From my experience a poor man has no hope of getting a house except a differential rent house because one of the requirements in the circular sent out by the Department of Local Government regarding the allocation of houses is ability to pay rent. That is the first question that will be asked if anyone is applying for a fixed rent house: has he ability to pay rent? I think that is all wrong when we are dealing with houses built by a local authority for working-class people. I can see no hope of housing the poorer people without a differential rent system.

We are all against this inquiry into private affairs, but I do not see any way of avoiding it and after all if a young man and his wife are trying to rear a young family it is the greatest help in the world to them to go into a house under a differential rent scheme. He has a guarantee and insurance against sickness and unemployment. We have a lot of casual workers in Cork in the docks and elsewhere and it would be impossible for those people to pay a fixed rent. I met a few cases recently where people who were supposed to be earning good money down in Ford's got fixed rent houses. When they had been a couple of months in the fixed rents houses the husband was stricken with sickness, the people were unable to continue paying a fixed rent and they looked for a transfer to differential rent houses. If the differential rents scheme was not in existence the corporation could not house those people, first of all because of the regulation that they must have the ability to pay the rent.

I do not know what the rents in Ballyfermot are, but in Cork the prewar differential rents were, as Deputy MacCarthy stated, from 6/- to 18/- and post-war they are from 6/- to 30/-. The 6/- rent covers the rates of the house; if you like it is no rent. Surely if a man who has had the benefit of a cheap house while rearing his family has four or five members of that family earning big money—he may have three or four tradesmen in the house—he is bound to pay a share for his fellow-worker who is in poorer circumstances. Surely that is better than that he should spend the money on amusements or other things. Surely we cannot provide houses at an uneconomic rent for everybody who cannot pay. When the family get married and go away and only the old couple is left you find that the rent is reduced again.

I cannot visualise any other way of housing those people. The system of fixed rents with ability to pay rent as one of the requirements to get a house is, I think, altogether wrong and will never meet the requirements of our poorer classes.

The discussion which we had on this very important matter is of great interest to those of us who are dealing with differential rents every other week. The contributions of Deputy Briscoe and of my colleague, Deputy Burke, were significant only for the amount of personal abuse they contained. The contributions made by other Deputies were enlightening. In particular, I must say that the Minister surprised me by the reason with which he approached this problem, although he disagreed with the views I expressed.

Reference was made to Councillor James Larkin, who originated this scheme. Deputy Alderman Byrne reminds me that within his recollection at that inquiry when the question of rents was being considered generally ten or 12 years ago—a report of that inquiry was referred to by the Minister—Councillor Larkin indicated that in his view the rents should be based upon one-tenth of the income. In the cases with which we are dealing the rent is based on one-sixth of the family income. Let us leave aside all that has been said about the tremendous number of people living in Ballyfermot who are earning fortunes—sums of £25, £35 and even £40 a week were mentioned. I know there are very few and far between who are earning such sums. Those who like to believe it can believe it. Let us take the case of a builder's labourer with four children, that is a very usual case, earning £6 10s. a week. One-sixth of £6 is £1, and this leaves him with £5 a week for himself, his four children and his wife. Can anybody suggest that £5 or £5 10s. a week for six human beings to live on in Dublin is Christian?

I think that the attitude adopted by Deputy Briscoe was completely unreal. He was endeavouring as best he could to make as much as he could out of a weak case and bolster up the position of himself and his colleagues on the Dublin Corporation. Deputy Burke would make a far better hand at funeral operations than endeavouring to justify how he twisted from last year when he sought to make himself a hero in the eyes of the people of Ballyfermot by demanding that the then Minister should increase the subsidy and thus reduce rents while seconding a motion which was in effect a full support of the whole principle of differential rents.

That does not matter very much. What does matter is that, in very many cases, the people in that particular area are suffering. I am sorry the Minister did not indicate to me his attitude towards what I consider to be the important point in this discussion. In the calculation of the economic rents of the Ballyfermot houses by Dublin Corporation no cognisance is taken of the Government subsidy which runs into, I think, £400. No cognisance whatever is taken of that. If cognisance were taken of it, it would result in a considerable reduction and an easement of the burden on the people. The Minister says it is wrong to say that people who could pay 36/- are contributing or helping to pay the rent for other people. I believe it is correct to say that a man who pays 36/- will pay a rent which takes no cognisance of the subsidy and that the subsidy will benefit some other family. The position in that area is typical and can be duplicated throughout the country. It has resulted in considerable dissatisfaction amongst the people. Deputy Cowan has referred to one most serious aspect of that dissatisfaction, the question of the invasion of the family privacy. I believe that had we a reasonable scheme we would not have that discontent, the sort of suspicion that exists where the differential renting system obtains at the present time. We should have a scheme to which the general mass of the people would have no objection. Many will ask why should the local authority house families with a very big income? Those families are so few in number that I would be agreeable to the local authority offering them no house at all. They should be made to avail of the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act because they are so few in number.

Deputy Burke, particularly, and Deputy Briscoe, to some extent, took the individual and isolated case to try to mislead the House and prove a situation which does not exist. The bulk of the people in that area, the people with ordinary working-class incomes, are being over-taxed in the form of rent. They want some easement. It was to try to get them that easement that I brought forward this motion. The suggestion was made, as usual, that my aim in bringing it forward was political. Does anybody honestly suggest that any deed ever done in this House had not a political motive? Everything that everybody says here has some political motive and rightly so. There is nothing dishonourable about it, but I am interested also in seeing people living as happily as they can. I am interested in seeing that people get a fair deal. I am interested in seeing that people whose wages have been increased by only 90 per cent. Since 1939 should not be forced to pay a rent 300 per cent. more than they were asked to pay in 1939. It is in that spirit that I ask the House to accept this motion, in an effort to help the less fortunate section of our people, the working-class people, upon whom this whole nation depends.

In view of the fact that the Ballyfermot area of my constituency is affected and since there are three minutes left, I was wondering whether I would be allowed to contribute to this debate.

We are winding up the debate. The question has to be put.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided:—Tá, 11; Níl, 71.

  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred Patrick.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dunne and Kyn e; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea.
Question declared negatived.
Amendment put and declared carried.
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