Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 1952

Vol. 129 No. 7

Private Deputies' Business. - Amendment of Housing (Amendment) Act, 1950—Motion.

Mr. Belton

I move:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should take immediate steps to introduce proposals for legislation which will ensure that the Housing (Amendment) Act, 1950, will be amended so as to provide that the housing subsidy will be increased to a figure not less than £350, and that the ceiling value will be increased from £2,000 to a figure of not less than £2,500 in view of the greatly increased building costs and especially to facilitate persons who are desirous to avail of loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts.

This is a motion in the names of Deputy Rooney and myself asking the Minister to introduce proposals to increase the grant on private houses which comply with the regulations governing the subsidy. We are also asking the Minister to raise the ceiling which at present prevents local authorities from lending money under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. It is felt by the building trade and also by the public who are anxious to become owners of their own homes that the time has come when the Government should introduce proposals to raise the ceiling which governs the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. We are asking him to increase the present grant given on houses built by private enterprise in the Dublin district.

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. If the Minister for Local Government is momentarily or unavoidably detained, no one will wish to blame him, but it would surely turn the proceedings of this House into a farce if, the Government having allotted time for the discussion of Deputy Belton's motion, the responsible Minister did not bother to turn up. If the Government allots Private Deputies' time, I am sure they do not mean any discourtesy to Deputy Belton, but it does seem silly to be discussing this matter in the absence of the Minister who is responsible.

Mr. Derrig

The Minister, who was at a conference, will be in the House in a moment. I think Deputy Belton could continue.

Mr. Belton

As I was saying before the Minister came in, this motion, which is in the name of Deputy Rooney and myself, asks the Minister to introduce proposals to increase the grant on private houses which comply with the regulations governing the subsidy. We are asking him also to increase the ceiling which prevents local authorities from lending money under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act.

It is definitely felt in the building trade at the moment, and by the public in general who are anxious to acquire their own homes, that the time is ripe now when the Government should consider an increase in the grant given on houses built for private ownership. Several local authorities throughout the country give a grant of not more than £275 in addition to the grant which is given by the Department of Local Government. This makes a total subsidy of not more than £550. I suggest to the Minister that the present grant, in view of the sharp rise in the cost of building materials and wages in the building industry, should be increased from £275 to £350. I am asking him to give this his careful consideration—that an increase in the grant is warranted in view of the cost of building over the last two years.

It may be argued that a grant of £350 on private dwellings might be too big, but I suggest that if facilities, such as this, were provided for people to enable them to acquire their own homes, the enormous lists of applicants for corporation houses in the City of Dublin would be greatly decreased. At the present time, in the City of Dublin, there are 30,000 applicants for corporation houses. I suggest to the Minister that that list of applicants could be decreased by approximately 50 per cent. if a larger grant were given for the building of houses. For example, in the Philipsburgh Avenue area, where the Dublin Corporation built over 200 houses to be rented to tenants at an economic rent and with a small deposit of £50, approximately 3,000 applicants applied for these houses. These houses would create no drain whatever on the local authorities. If Dublin City and County paid an additional grant, as some local authorities do, I suggest that would be too great a drain on the local rates in view of the amount of building carried on in Dublin.

Of more importance, however, is the immediate necessity for increasing the ceiling of £2,000 in relation to small dwellings loans. At present, local authorities cannot give a loan on a house which is valued at more than £2,000. I would suggest that it is well-nigh impossible, with present charges, even for local authorities to build houses with an over-all cost of over £2,000. In the City of Dublin, at the moment, there are approximately 500 carpenters idle. They are idle because it is impossible for people to purchase their own houses. There are certain cases in this city where there is a great deal of uneasiness caused to intending purchasers by the fact that they cannot apply for a small dwellings loan on their houses in view of the fact that the houses they have purchased are, at the present time, valued at nearly £300 more than a similar house was valued 12 months ago. I would suggest to the Minister that an increase in the ceiling of at least £500 should be made without any delay.

It is a well-known fact that social reformers throughout the world are stressing the need for larger houses for the working people in the different countries. It is essential that sufficient accommodation be provided for the segregation of the sexes making up a family. I will conclude now with the hope that the Minister will give these points his serious consideration. I make the request to him to consider the matter carefully.

Mr. Rooney

In sponsoring this motion with Deputy Belton, I should like to express the hope that it will be accepted by the Minister. We realise the need for encouraging amongst our people a desire to provide their own homes. We realise that it is desirable, in present circumstances, to encourage them by making available to them the maximum amount of finance and the best facilities we can.

I do not propose to go over the ground already covered by Deputy Belton. People interested in the building of their own homes know very well the problems which confront them, and know also the methods which could be adopted to ease the position for them. We suggest that if the Minister accepts this motion by increasing the grant from £275 to £350 in respect of a serviced house, and also if he agrees that the ceiling valuation shall be not less than £2,500 in respect of a house which will qualify for a small dwellings loan, that will be a progressive step towards the achievement of what it is desired to procure in this motion.

This particular class of house is required by those who are described as white-collar workers, the people who by reason of their circumstances are unable to qualify for the tenancy of a local authority house and who, at the same time, again by reason of their circumstances, can to a certain extent finance the establishment of their own homes by the deposit of a small amount of money. We know that in relation to building costs and having regard to the fact that only 90 per cent. of the actual valuation can be given, it requires a fairly substantial deposit on the part of these people before they can arrange to have houses built for them. If the ceiling is raised to a figure of not less than £2,500 the difficulty in relation to the rise in building costs will be offset and these people will then be in a position to qualify for the building of houses under the Small Dwellings Acts.

There are very few houses now that can be built for less than £2,000. If houses cost more than that figure, excluding the amount of grant, they will not qualify for a loan from the local authority, whether it be the corporation or the county council. People, therefore, who would consider establishing their own homes must forget about them. If the ceiling is raised a new impetus will be given to the building trade because these people will once more consider the question of establishing their own homes despite the high building costs, and it would be better to encourage the building of these houses now rather than wait until a later date when costs might rise even higher than they are at present.

It is desirable that we should encourage this housing programme in order to ensure that all our people will be accommodated in decent homes at the earliest possible date. I believe that many people who are now obliged to apply for local authority houses would and could avail of these grants and these loans if the terms of this motion are accepted.

Mr. Gallagher

I think this motion has a great deal to recommend it. Any effort to encourage people to purchase their own homes should be supported. In relation to this suggested £350 grant and the raising of the ceiling to £2,500, it is possible to build quite a good house to-day for £2,500. There is one point that neither Deputy Rooney nor Deputy Belton referred to and that is that, if we raise the ceiling to £2,500, it means that those who are proposing to buy their houses will have to apply for a much larger loan and their repayments will, therefore, be higher. We have to ask ourselves whether people can afford to buy houses for £2,500. On that figure the repayments would be in the region of £2 10s. per week plus rates. Where will we find the white-collar worker who can meet that?

The Dublin Corporation is at the moment building houses in or around the £2,000 mark. As Deputy Belton has told you, we have such houses in Philipsburgh Avenue. I understand they are costing in or around £1,800 to £1,900. They are good houses, built of the best materials available and by first-class tradesmen. The repayments are in the region of 35/- a week. The people want repayments they can meet and that is what we should aim at. We should aim at producing houses on which the ordinary people can meet the repayment in relation to rates, taxes, rent, insurance and everything else. They cannot afford to meet £2 10/- or £3 per week.

The reason why the Dublin Corporation has 3,000 applicants for 204 houses is because their repayments are low. Some time ago I heard Deputy Dillon make a very good point—one in which I thoroughly agreed with him. It is the exception rather than the rule to find anyone on the Fianna Fail Benches agreeing with Deputy Dillon, but he did say he would like to give the reputable person the full loan if possible; at the same time he emphasised the point, provided he could meet his repayments. If my memory serves me correctly, he also said that the repayments should be as low as possible. I think he mentioned a term of 35 or 40 years for repayment—anything to keep it within the man's pocket. That is what we should aim at.

I would suggest to Deputy Belton and Deputy Rooney that they should leave this to the Minister when he brings in his new housing Bill. I think £275 is a bit small at the present time and there are grounds for raising it to £350. The Department of Local Government, both under the Coalition Government and the last Fianna Fáil Government, has made every effort to help the housing drive. I have said time and again that we should not play Party politics when we are dealing with housing.

It is a big job and it should have the co-operation of everyone, Deputies, trade unionists, builders and workers. Every encouragement should be given to the housing drive. I want to emphasise that what the people want is something they can meet. I have had some experience in this matter during my ordinary day's work, and I appeal to the Minister to meet the points that have been made when he introduces his new Bill.

If there is another big housing drive I feel that some builders at any rate will try to get their cut out of it. They will not be satisfied with a small margin of profit. I think the builders should clip their wings and add a little more to the drive. The workers should do likewise. Complaints have been made that the workers are not putting their backs into the job. Deputy Belton stated there are 500 carpenters idle. If they go back to work now and put their shoulders to the wheel, and put more into their work and if the builders do with a little less profit, that will encourage the drive a good deal and help to bring down the overall cost of houses. I think we need a little more effort on the part of the worker and the tradesman, and more co-operation from the builder. There are many honest builders but there are always some black sheep who try to get rich quick. I know a few of them myself. We should not encourage those. We should wipe them out if possible.

Mr. Hickey

What about the price of money? You mentioned the workers' share and everybody else's share but what about the banks' share?

Mr. Gallagher

Whose share?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy might address the Chair.

Mr. Gallagher

Deputy Hickey appears to be a bit of an authority on finance. He seems to have an extensive knowledge of finance, and I am hoping one day to hear a speech by Deputy Hickey on high finance. He is a Deputy for whom I have a great respect. I am not an authority on finance at all, and I have never suggested that I am. As Deputy Dillon told me on one occasion, I am only an infant in this House.

Mr. Dillon

Are you not a fine substantial infant, God bless you?

Mr. Gallagher

Go raibh míle maith agat. When I say there should be co-operation between workers and trade unions I mean that everybody should put more into it. If there is a slump in building now, I think there is a chance for the tradesmen to put a bit more into it. The same applies to the builders who should allow their profits to come down a bit more. I think the Minister should increase this grant somewhat and try, if possible to meet Deputy Hickey's point by getting money cheaper, but where he will get it I do not know.

Mr. Rooney

Would the building societies help us out in this programme in the matter of finance?

Mr. Gallagher

Certainly.

Mr. Rooney

Because it is very hard to get.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not going to have any discussion on that matter.

Mr. Gallagher

The building societies have played their part in the housing drive. They have played their part by financing builders and houses. That goes without question. The returns are in the Department of Industry and Commerce. Were it not for building societies, there would be a good many builders who would have to close down completely.

Mr. Palmer

What rate of interest do they charge?

Mr. Burke

While I agree with the Deputies that the grant towards the building of houses should be increased, I do not think that the further £75 will meet the position at all.

Mr. Dillon

Oh!

Mr. Burke

I was dealing with a particular case to-day, that of a four-roomed house costing £1,975. The man who is buying the house will get only a loan of about 80 or 90 per cent. That happens in certain areas. In this particular case, the individual will have to find £200 or £300. I should like the Minister, in his new Housing Bill, to get the valuers to increase the value of the houses. This would help the workers a good deal. From my experience in dealing with applicants for housing loans both from the county council and building societies, the biggest difficulty experienced by applicants is to find the amount of money between the amount they will get to build a house and the amount they will have to procure themselves. I find that is the biggest millstone round the necks of the people who are trying to procure houses. If the Minister could overcome that difficulty in any way I should like him to do it.

Mr. Rooney

He has the power, Deputy.

Mr. Burke

There is another aspect of this matter to which I should like to refer. I do not want to use this House nor have I ever done so in order to say anything about anybody outside it, but I have my suspicions about houses advertised by builders. The house costs so much, minus the free grant. I am wondering whether in certain cases, as has been stated by my colleague, Deputy Colm Gallagher, greater advantage is not taken of this than heretofore. That is a hard thing to say about these men but, nevertheless, this grant is always shown up. The grant for a serviced house is £275 and for a utility house it is £280. You can judge the house from whatever standard you like, but the fact remains that the costs have gone up a good deal.

I feel that the position generally has definitely got worse instead of getting better. What I wish to bring to the Minister's notice is the hardship experienced by a house purchaser in trying to find the amount to put down on a house. I should like if building society and county council loans could be stepped up in that respect. I know that some years ago Deputy Belton had a lot of trouble in this respect and I am sure that Deputy Rooney has the same experience with people who come to him from time to time.

While I agree with the motion, I cannot see that it is going to solve the big problem to which I have referred. The further sum of £75 will not bridge the gap. It is only making the matter more tempting but it will not bridge the gap at all. The sum of £75 is far from solving the problem. The man purchasing the house will have to find more than £75. He will probably have to find a few hundred pounds. That is a problem which we all have to face in this House.

General MacEoin

Surely, the Deputies who have moved this motion are entitled to hear something from the Government Bench as to what the attitude of the Minister and the Government is upon the motion? The fact that Deputies Colm Gallagher and Burke spoke from the Government Benches in favour of the motion does not mean that the Government is accepting it. This is a problem which is not easy to solve. Deputy Hickey, in his interjection, struck one of the very important points and that is the question of the rate of interest on money lent for housing.

Mr. Hickey

Of course, one is talking nonsense when one says anything like that.

General MacEoin

But that is only in some people's opinion.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister must be in high hopes of getting the motion put out so that he will not have to bring in his new Housing Bill.

General MacEoin

The big problem in the building of houses is the question of the amount of repayments either to the local authority or to the building society. Remember that there is a yardstick for measuring what a rent should be. Any person's rent should be one day's wages in the week. One-seventh of his total income is the yardstick that measures what the rent of any house should be. If you are paying more than a day's wages, then you are in trouble from the start. When you have to pay a rent of £2 or £2 10s. 0d. a week on repayment of a loan, then the rent is too high. No person can maintain a family and pay that rent.

Somebody may ask you who set that figure? But the maintenance of a family has ever been measured by certain standards and a day's wages— the week's wages divided over seven days—is supposed to represent certain aspects of the family's life, housing, clothing, food, protection for savings and so on. Indeed, you should not only be able to pay a day's wages in rent, but you should be able to save for what is known in the country as "the rainy day", when it comes.

Captain Cowan

Would the Deputy say "a day's income" instead of "a day's wages"?

General MacEoin

Yes, a day's income, whatever is the normal income; that is a figure. I have intervened in this debate to stress the importance of good housing for the people not only in the cities, where, I regret to say, most of this building is done, but in the country as well. I do stress the necessity of dealing with the rural areas in a more extensive way than has been done up to the present. When the Land Commission, a public utility society or a local authority is building a house in the country it should have the same amenities as a house in the city. It should not be the same as a house built a hundred years ago. We complain about the people running away from the land, but why should they not go when they are left with little better than the tents of the days when we were all migrants and itinerants? Like Deputies Rooney and Belton, I would finish by asking the Minister to let the House know his intentions in the matter.

Mr. Hickey

I should like to deal with money matters about which Deputies Rooney and Belton were so anxious to ask the Minister. Is there anything wrong in suggesting to the Minister or to Deputy Belton that a house costing £2,000 should have a normal existence of 70 years? If so, the rent would be 28/11 per week. I am also quite conscious of the fact that a house has to be kept in repair and insured, and I would allow £13 per year to keep that house in decent repair. That is another 5/- per week, bringing the rent to 33/11.

Why should anybody be compelled to pay for a house in 30 years when the normal life of a house is 70 years? I am not saying that this Deputy or that Deputy has a knowledge of finance, but we must first tell the people who claim to know about finance where they stand as far as the housing of our people is concerned. We are building houses in Cork and the interest and charges for a five-roomed house are £78 per year. I would ask Deputy Gallagher to work that out in rent and then say whether I am talking sense or nonsense or whether I have a knowledge of high finance. For our four-roomed houses the loan charges are £69, and that is about 25/- a week in rent. If the Minister were to bring in a Housing Bill dealing once and for all with the financial aspects of housing instead of suiting the money-lenders by paying back loans in 35 years he would be doing a good day's work. I want to tell Deputy Gallagher that the money lenders receive more than the workers who build the house, the merchants who supply the materials, the owner of the land which is purchased and professional fees all added together. I could work that out in figures but the Chairman would not allow me to do it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Not on this motion.

Mr. Hickey

We should think seriously, instead of suiting the money lenders and asking more and more loans——

Mr. Gallagher

Are they not corporation loans?

Mr. O'Hara

I want to draw the Minister's attention to an aspect of housing to which other Deputies have not referred, and I would remind him first of all that I asked a question in this House concerning this point. I would deal with loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act and the fees chargeable by county council solicitors.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on this motion—the payment made to solicitors by local bodies. We are not discussing the Housing Act but subsidies and the increasing of the ceiling value to a certain sum.

Mr. O'Hara

Another aspect is the supplementary grants payable by county councils. Recommendations have been sent up by various county councils and Mayo County Council suggested certain supplementary grants. Would the Minister tell the House in his reply whether he is prepared to sanction these grants or not because there are many people in the country particularly in my native county who are anxious to know what he has in mind. I think it is time he made an authoritative statement. I very much regret that I am not allowed to elaborate on the question of soliciitors' charges with particular reference to county council solicitors who are also State solicitors.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Smith)

There is no doubt that one could get many useful suggestions from Deputies on all sides of the House as to the way to tackle this problem. If effect were given to them all, instead of being difficult the problem would be a very simple one. If we could for example start off, as Deputy MacEoin suggested, by saying that the rent of the house should be so much and that nobody should be asked to pay more, if we could increase the grants to whatever point we liked; if we could, as Deputy Hickey suggested, borrow money with the greatest ease and make the repayment period as long as you like——

Mr. Hickey

Seventy years.

Mr. Smith

——if we could adopt all these useful suggestions very simply thrown out by those who contributed to this debate, then what has been admitted to be a difficult problem with present-day costs would be a very simple matter indeed. But somehow Ministers for Local Government do not find it just as easy as that. They have not found it as simple as that in the past and I not only suspect but I know that they will not find it so easy in the future. All I want to say now is that the matters referred to here, the question of the provision of grants and the raising of the ceiling, are matters that are appropriate to the discussion on a Bill which will be before the House, I hope, in a short time. While not anxious to express my view on the two questions raised here, I want to assure the House that I will have no hesitation in doing so when that Bill is before the House. The House will then be free to examine it, to criticise it, to suggest amendments to it and speak in their favour, and we can then have the decision of the House upon them.

Mr. Rooney

Is the Minister accepting the terms of this motion?

Mr. Smith

No.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Shall I put the motion?

Captain Cowan

I do not think it desirable to jump to the stage of taking a vote at this time.

Mr. Rooney

Is the motion being refused?

Mr. Smith

Yes.

Captain Cowan

The Minister has said he is not accepting the motion, but that does not debar me from saying something about it, nor does it debar any other Deputy who desires to speak. The fact that the Minister does not accept the motion does not close the debate. The Minister has told us, and it is very useful to know because of the serious problem confronting all local authorities in connection with housing, that a new Housing Bill is being prepared, and will be before the House in a very short time, and that the two matters raised in this motion can be dealt with then, when the Minister will be in a position to indicate his views on the increased grant and the raising of the ceiling in respect of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. I suggest to Deputy Belton and Deputy Rooney that if a Bill covering these matters which will give an opportunity for discussion of these points is to come before the House in a short time, there is no necessity, this evening or this day week when we come to conclude this discussion, to divide the House. If the Minister did not intend to bring in a Housing Bill in a very short time, the matter would be on an entirely different basis. Everyone agrees that there is a very big problem by reason of the increase in the cost of building materials, and Deputy MacEoin in referring to one-seventh of a week's income as being apportionable to rent has a not unsound idea. I think that one-seventh is probably too high, that a better proportion might be one-eighth, one-ninth or one-tenth.

General MacEoin

It would be the cheap house when you get to one-tenth.

Captain Cowan

I understand that. I always had the idea that the rent of a house should be approximately one-tenth of the income. Under the differential renting system in Dublin, we have it at one-sixth, but there are certain deductions and certain offsetting allowances, and a special committee, which has been considering the matter, are of the opinion that the one-sixth is not too high. Looking at what the cost of repayment under the Small Dwellings Acts, as they are at the moment, is in respect of an advance of, say, £2,000 on the basis of either of the figures—8/4 or 8/8 per £100, because one figure applies to the city and the other to the county, and, I am sure, to the country outside—it means that the rent, exclusive of rates and ground rent, is something approximating £2 per week. In order to pay that, a family must have an income of £14 or £16 per week, or even more. That presents other problems. How many families at present have incomes of £14, £15 or £16 per week? If they have incomes of that amount, is the Small Dwellings Act the proper machinery for financing housing?

The Small Dwellings Act in Dublin City has a splendid record of success. The number of defaulters in a period of 20 years has been almost negligible. That is the record in Dublin, and, if that is the general experience all over the country, then undoubtedly the purchase of houses by means of advances under the Small Dwellings Act is to be commended. The rates of interest about which Deputy Hickey has spoken are smaller under the Small Dwellings Acts than on advances from building societies. I think that that is accepted.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Then they could be trusted a bit more.

Captain Cowan

That is the point. I am trying to argue the two sides of the question at the moment.

Mr. Rooney

Which sides?

Captain Cowan

I am considering the difficulties in regard to them. On a motion like this it is undesirable to jump to a particular conclusion right away. The problem is worth examination and study and these involved aspects of it should be considered. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.