Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Apr 1952

Vol. 130 No. 8

Resolution No. 3—Customs and Excise. - Mineral Hydrocarbon Light Oil.

Mr. MacEntee

I move:—

(1) That the duty of customs imposed by Section 1 of the Finance (Customs Duties) (No. 4) Act, 1931 (No. 43 of 1931), as amended by subsequent enactments, shall, in respect of mineral hydrocarbon light oil chargeable with that duty, be charged, levied and paid—

(a) during the period beginning on the 3rd day of April, 1952, and ending on the 16th day of April, 1952, at the rate of 1/8 the gallon in lieu of the rate now chargeable by virtue of sub-section (1) of Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1951 (No. 15 of 1951), and

(b) as on and from the 17th day of April, 1952, at the rate of 1/9½ the gallon in lieu of the rate specified in sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph.

(2) That the duty of excise imposed by Section 1 of the Finance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1935 (No. 7 of 1935), as amended by subsequent enactments, shall—

(a) in respect of mineral hydrocarbon light oil chargeable with that duty which is sent out, on or for sale or otherwise, from the premises of the manufacturer thereof during the period beginning on the 3rd day of April, 1952, and ending on the 16th day of April, 1952, or is used by such manufacturer during that period for any purpose other than the manufacture or production of mineral hydrocarbon oil, be charged, levied and paid at the rate of 1/6 the gallon in lieu of the rate now chargeable by virtue of sub-section (2) of Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1951, and

(b) in respect of mineral hydrocarbon light oil chargeable with that duty which is sent out, on or for sale or otherwise, from the premises of the manufacturer thereof on or after the 17th day of April, 1952, or is used by such manufacturer on or after that date for any purpose other than the manufacture or production of mineral hydrocarbon oil be charged, levied and paid at the rate of 1/7½ the gallon in lieu of the rate specified in sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph.

(3) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Mr. Sweetman

What about the allowance that used to be given for agricultural purposes?

Mr. MacEntee

The same differential applies as before. It is not being increased.

Mr. Sweetman

But the overhead cost for agriculture is being increased.

Mr. Cosgrave

What is the estimated increase which Córas Iompair Éireann will have to pay?

Mr. MacEntee

I am afraid I will have to get notice of that question.

Mr. MacBride

Does it mean fares will be increased?

Mr. Dillon

Some regard must have been had to that before the tax was decided on.

General Mulcahy

Does the motion refer to petrol or does it include paraffin oil and oils of that kind?

Mr. MacEntee

No. It applies only to hydrocarbon mineral light oils and does not apply to paraffin oil.

Mr. Blowick

Does it include fuels used in agriculture?

Mr. MacEntee

The oils to which this duty applies are: petrol (motor and aviation spirit), benzol, white spirit, solvent naphthas, mineral naphthas, light petroleum petrol and light oils which are produced from distillation of coal and shale. The duty is mostly derived from motor spirit.

Mr. MacBride

Will the Minister give an undertaking that this new duty will not cause an increase in the bus fares to the people of Dublin?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not prepared to give any undertaking because I cannot interfere with the management of Córas Iompair Éireann which the Deputy established.

Mr. MacBride

The Minister is asking the House to enable him to impose an additional duty on petrol.

Mr. Dillon

Does this attach to diesel oil?

Captain Cowan

Buses are not run on petrol.

Mr. Sweetman

Some of them are.

Mr. Dillon

We are entitled to know does this duty apply to diesel oil or not. It is not good enough for the Minister for Finance to be winking and grimacing at Deputy Cowan and Deputy Cowan to be winking and grimacing back at him.

Captain Cowan

You have a marvellous imagination.

Mr. Dillon

I did not come down in yesterday's shower. We all know that fuel oils are divided into petrol and heavy oil. We all know if you exempt diesel oil buses do not bear the tax but we are entitled surely to inquire; and if that man knows what he is doing, he must have had some regard to the question whether this proposed tax would increase bus fares in Dublin, Crumlin, Cork, and places such as those. Is it unreasonable for Deputies to ask for the information, or have the Deputies in this House become so demoralised that they will trot into the Lobby for any proposition whether they understand it or not? I want information on two points. Does this definition of hydrocarbon oil, which is the one employed, mind you, in the Resolution as circulated—it is hydrocarbon oil; there is no description of light or heavy—cover (1) diesel oil used in heavy passenger buses; (2) impose any charge on what is commonly known as T.V.O., that is the heavy fuel used in agricultural tractors? I am not being unreasonable in asking the Minister to give us that information.

Captain Cowan

Before the Minister answers, might I simply ask this question? The Minister has given round copies of his Budget statement. One of those copies went to Deputy Dillon and one went to Deputy MacBride. I think they will find the answer to their question in that statement.

Mr. Blowick

No, you will not.

Captain Cowan

It is in it.

Mr. MacEntee

I think when Deputy Dillon was talking about grimaces he was seeing things and, after listening to his speech, I am convinced he is living in another dimension, because we are not dealing with Resolution No. 4; we are dealing with Resolution No. 3. In that resolution, if the Deputy will take the trouble to read it, he will see it is entitled: "Mineral hydrocarbon light oil." I read out to the House—I do not think Deputy Dillon was listening or, perhaps, he was not permitted to hear me—the particular types of oil to which this general description will apply. They are "petrol (motor and aviation spirit), benzol, white spirit, solvent naphthas, mineral naphthas, light petroleum petrol and light oils which are produced from distillation of coal and shale". There is nothing there about diesel oil. In fact—I will try to get into the same world as the Deputy— diesel oil is covered by Resolution No. 4.

Mr. Blowick

I want to bring to the Minister's attention that paraffin and vaporising oil, two fuels used in agricultural tractors, come within the meaning of hydrocarbon light oil.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has decided, apparently, to take some of this aviation spirit to join Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Blowick

The Minister is not going to get away with a trick of that kind. The two fuel oils come within the meaning of hydrocarbon light oil.

Mr. MacEntee

I am sorry. The Deputy is mistaken. I would like him to be right for once.

Mr. MacBride

Can the Minister state the quantity of petrol used by Córas Iompair Éireann in a year?

Mr. MacEntee

No.

Mr. MacBride

Would the Minister not inquire, before proposing this new tax, as to the effect it will have on the running costs of Córas Iompair Éireann? Will the Minister consider exempting Córas Iompair Éireann from the provision of this additional tax, so that it will not increase the bus fares?

Mr. MacEntee

After listening to what Deputy Norton said about the rebate to the small brewers and the iniquity of helping them, I can imagine what Deputy Norton would say if I exempted a great corporation like Córas Iompair Éireann from this tax.

Mr. O'Higgins

On the Resolution to impose this tax I think it might be of assistance to the House and to the Minister if I referred briefly to the Minister's own statement in this House on the 2nd May last when it was proposed to increase the tax on hydrocarbon oil. The same discussion took place as to what the oil meant. Eventually, when it was discovered that it was petrol, this is what the Minister had to say.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is in possession.

Mr. MacEntee

I think the Deputy is in the fourth dimension with Deputy Dillon. He is talking about Resolution No. 4. We are on Resolution No. 3.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am discussing the Resolution relating to mineral hydrocarbon light oil. Let us see what the Minister for Finance had to say about it last year. Of course he was in opposition then and opposing the tax. I quote from the Minister's speech:—

"This is the fuel which the Minister informed us during the brief discussion on the last Resolution, drives the buses which bring the workers of Dublin to work; the oil which drives the vehicles upon which most of those who have to live in Kimmage and Crumlin, and who are earning their living in the City of Dublin have to travel twice, and sometimes four times a day. It is interesting to note that Deputy Davin and the Labour Party, who were so concerned about the position of the workers in Dublin at the last general election, are now going to vote to increase the cost of transport for the workers of Dublin, while at the same time they approve of the Minister's proposal in Financial Resolution No. 5, to decrease the rates of death duties.... I do not think there are many people living in either Crumlin or Kimmage or in any other industrial residential centre in Dublin who will benefit by Resolution No. 5, but they will suffer under Resolution No. 3, because Resolution No. 3 proposes to increase by 14 per cent. the tax upon diesel oil which, again, according to the Minister, is used principally for the propulsion of buses."

This was the Minister's view only ten months ago, and that was his plea for the workers in Kimmage and Crumlin. He now agrees to put a further increased tax on petrol, and he is a little bit bothered as to what he is taxing. I never in all my life saw such a complete somersault by any member of this House.

Mr. Davin

I think it is very unfair that the Minister should treat the members on the Opposition side of this House with the discourtesy he is now showing by refusing to answer ordinary intelligent questions. It is quite obvious, to me at any rate, and it must be obvious to everybody else, even Deputy Cowan, that the expenses of this nationalised concern known as Córas Iompair Éireann are going to be increased considerably as a result of the passing of this resolution. The Minister has refused to answer questions as to whether he has made any inquiries concerning the possible effect of this resolution on the finances of Córas Iompair Éireann. However, he knows, and knows very well, that his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who met the board of Córas Iompair Éireann a few months ago, told them that it was the policy of the Fianna Fáil Government to make Córas Iompair Éireann pay its way. The Minister knows that a Supplementary Estimate was brought into this House some time ago for the purpose of meeting the deficit during the past year in the finances of Córas Iompair Éireann, but he now deliberately and knowingly brings a Resolution before the House which is going to increase the expenditure of a company which his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, says from now onwards, or from some past date onwards, must pay its way.

Captain Cowan

On a point of order. Deputy Davin states that the Minister for Industry and Commerce gave certain instructions to the board of Córas Iompair Éireann. Has he got a quoting authority for that?

Mr. Davin

The Deputy wants to interrupt for the purpose of preventing me from speaking. He will find in the records of this House for the night before we adjourned for the Christmas recess the Minister's own words. I am not purporting to quote them exactly here and now. However, the official records of the debate in this House the night before we adjourned for the Christmas recess will show that the Minister for Industry and Commerce made a statement here in which he admitted having met the board of Córas Iompair Éireann. I will say for the Deputy's information that he repeated that statement at an after-dinner speech which he made in the city not so long ago. Apart from that, which is a small matter, the Minister for Finance enjoys the use of a motorcar at the expense of the taxpayer, and this Resolution is going to increase the cost of carrying that gentleman around the country from now until whatever date he ceases to be Minister for Finance.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister stated, in the course of his Budget statement, that one of the most urgent necessities was an increase in the economic production of agricultural produce for export. He was careful to emphasise produce which will meet the cold blast of competition and which must, therefore, be produced with the highest efficiency and the lowest possible cost. On the same day that the Minister emphasises that the methods employed by the agricultural community must be revolutionised in order to procure a higher standard of efficiency, he himself introduces a proposal which impinges most exclusively on the farmer who is trying to meet the requisition made by the Minister to bring into his methods of production the highest efficiency by way of equipping the farm with machinery. The Minister does that and then whirls around and says: "Now being committed to the capital expenditure on a tractor and implements for the cultivation of your land, an expenditure out of which you cannot retreat, I will now slap a further tax on the fuel you use." How in the name of common sense can a Parliament, in one afternoon, declare that the economic survival of our people depends on reducing the cost of production and increasing the volume of production, and, in the case of production, declaring that, before the best farmer in Ireland will be allowed to catch up on the state in which he at present is, he must begin by contributing an additional 4d. per gallon on the fuel he uses in the only system of power and traction he now employs. He cannot draw back from his mechanisation because his capital investment is too substantial and is irrevocable.

The whole of the nauseating proceedings this evening disgusted me because I saw so much that held high promise going down the drain. It caps the climax when our people are told in this House, in the same breath: "Reduce your cost of production, while the Government slaps 4d. a gallon on the fuel you must use." I think this is a most loathsome performance.

Mr. MacBride

Does the Minister still say that he did not inquire and does not know the effect that this increase will have on bus fares in Dublin?

Captain Cowan

If I might——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowan is entitled to speak.

Captain Cowan

Deputy Dillon very frequently made use of the words "nauseating" and "disgusting." In my view, this type of performance is both nauseating and disgusting, because last year in the Budget there was an increase in this particular fuel. Clearly, any person who was a Minister in the Cabinet must know what effect that had on the finances of Córas Iompair Éireann, and it is a very simple calculation to relate the increase then to the increase now and to know the answer.

Mr. Rooney

Does not the Deputy know what the increase was?

Captain Cowan

It is a very simple calculation to relate the increase then with the increase now and to know the answer. It is a simple mathematical problem and I think if people look into this House——

Mr. MacBride

Does the Deputy know how much it is?

Captain Cowan

If I were a member of an inter-Party Cabinet I would have no doubt about the answer. I do not mind Deputies asking questions if they genuinely want information, but it is absolutely hypocritical to ask questions like these. Just because there was a change in circumstances, a switch over from one side of the House to the other we have all the same arguments trotted out. Deputy MacBride asked the question that Deputy MacEntee was asking last year and Deputy O'Higgins then reads out what Deputy MacEntee said last year. Is there not any real originality? I would like to say, because Deputy Mulcahy seems to be very anxious about it, that I do not think it would be wise for me to advise a dissolution for at least a year.

General Mulcahy

I am glad to know that because I thought the Deputy was advocating a censorship on what we may say here.

Mr. MacBride

May I again ask the Minister whether he has made any inquiries as to the effect this tax will have on bus fares?

Mr. Davin

May I ask this question which is another way of asking Deputy MacBride's question? Did the Minister ask his colleague, through the Department in the first instance and personally afterwards, what effect a tax of this kind would have on a company like Córas Iompair Éireann? Did he make any such inquiries and, if so, could he not tell the House as a matter of courtesy what the answer was?

Mr. MacEntee

May I conclude, Sir?

Mr. Dillon

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

If nobody offers himself then I must call on the Minister.

Mr. Byrne

May I ask the Minister will we have any guarantee from the Minister for Industry and Commerce that if Córas Iompair Éireann makes an application to increase bus fares following this tax it will be refused?

Mr. MacEntee

I would first like to address myself to the questions put by Deputies Davin and MacBride because I think they are cognate. The Deputies will have to realise and appreciate that the preparation of a Budget is a highly confidential business and therefore I could not go around asking concerns what, if I put a tax on a particular commodity, its effects were going to be. There have been no Budget leakages in this State so far. Apart from the experience two or three years past, the proceedings at Cabinet discussions are regarded as highly confidential and the discussions which take place between individual members of the Cabinet are not broadcast in the House or elsewhere. Therefore I cannot give an answer to the questions which the Deputies have asked.

I do not know whether the tax will be of much practical importance as far as the position of Córas Iompair Éireann is concerned because I am informed that Córas Iompair Éireann has practically abandoned the use of petrol and are running almost all their city and long-distance buses on diesel oil. In any case having regard to the unfortunate history of that concern since our predecessors enacted legislation to deal with it a tax such as this would not add to its difficulties because what I may take from it in petrol tax I shall probably have to give back to it in subsidies.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Tá, 71; Níl, 64.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Dan.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Thomas.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Browne, Noel C.
• Buckley, Seán.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Butler, Bernard.
• Carter, Frank.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Cogan, Patrick.
• Colley, Harry.
• Collins, James J.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cowan, Peadar.
• Crowley, Honor Mary.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• de Valera, Eamon.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Duignan, Peadar.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Fanning, John.
• ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
• Flanagan, Seán.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Gallagher, Colm.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hillery, Patrick J.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Humphreys, Francis.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lemass, Seán.
• Little, Patrick J.
• Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
• McCann, John.
• MacCarthy, Seán.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McGrath, Patrick.
• Maguire, Patrick J.
• Maher, Peadar.
• Moran, Michael.
• Moylan, Seán.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Ormonde, John.
• O'Sullivan, Ted.
• Rice, Bridget M.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Mary B.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.
• Walsh, Laurence J.
• Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

• Beirne, John.
• Belton, John.
• Blowick, Joseph.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Cafferky, Dominick.
• Cawley, Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Collins, Seán.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Costello, John A.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Crowe, Patrick.
• Davin, William.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• Murphy, William.
• Norton, William.
• O'Donnell, Patrick.
• O'Gorman, Patrick J.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• Dunne, Seán.
• Esmonde, Anthony C.
• Everett, James.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finan, John.
• Finucane, Patrick.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Hession, James M.
• Hickey, James.
• Hughes, Joseph.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Larkin, James.
• Leary, Johnny.
• Lehane, Patrick D.
• Lynch, John (North Kerry).
• MacBride, Seán.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Mannion, John.
• O'Sullivan, Denis.
• Palmer, Patrick W.
• Reidy, James.
• Reynolds, Mary.
• Roddy, Joseph.
• Rogers, Patrick J.
• Rooney, Eamon.
• Spring, Dan.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Tully, John.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Corish.

Resolution declared carried.