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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £3,035,230 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain services administered by that office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The total sum estimated to be needed for the year 1952/53 amounts to £5,689,230. Of this sum £2,654,000 has been granted by way of Vote on Account, leaving £3,035,230 to be granted now to complete the Vote.

Deputies have been supplied with a reprint of Parts I and II of the Estimate. The necessity for the reprint arose from the decision of the Government to withdraw the butter subsidy. The original Estimate provided for butter subsidy for the whole year, whereas the revised Estimate, as reprinted, provides only for the period of the financial year ended on the 4th July, 1952.

From the reprint of Part II of the Estimate, Deputies will notice that the total sum required for 1952/53 represents a net decrease of £1,514,997 as compared with the revised Estimate for 1951/52. The principal decrease is, of course, on the sub-head for dairy produce subsidies, for which the amount now required is £1,875,300 less than was voted for 1951/52. The only other substantial decrease is one of almost £100,000 in the sum provided in sub-head O.5.—Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Acts, etc. This is due entirely to a reduction in the estimated expenditure under the fertiliser credits (wheat) scheme which, of course, is now tapering off.

The sub-heads which show substantial increases as compared with 1951/52 are the land reclamation and water supplies scheme, for which an additional sum of approximately £221,000 is provided, the ground limestone subsidy provision which is increased by £100,000, and a new sub-head—G.5: entitled Repayable Advances for Importation of Superphosphate which provides for £400,000.

The foregoing comparison between 1952/53 and 1951/52 is, of course, exclusive of the transfer from my Vote to that for the Department of Industry and Commerce of the provision for flour and wheaten meal subsidies and related matters.

The total net estimate for 1952/53 as shown in the Book of Estimates amounted to £8,012,230, and Deputies will observe from Part I of the reprint that the revised Estimate amounts to £5,689,230. The reduction of £2,323,000 is the difference between the provisions originally made for expenditure and receipts for dairy produce subsidies for the whole year and the provisions now made for these subsidies for the period of the year ended on the 4th July. For the whole year, it was estimated that expenditure on dairy produce subsidies would amount to £3,850,000 while receipts (Appropriations-in-Aid) from the issue of permits to catering establishments and sales of extra butter to milk suppliers were expected to realise £292,000, leaving the net estimated charge on the Exchequer £3,558,000. The revised figures for the period of the year ended on the 4th July, 1952, are £1,315,000 for expenditure and £80,000 for receipts, or a net charge on the Exchequer of £1,235,000. The reduced charge on the Exchequer is, therefore, £2,323,000.

I should mention that, in addition to the expenditure out of voted moneys of £1,315,000 on dairy produce subsidies, it is estimated that the Dairy Produce (Price Stabilisation) Fund will be in a position to contribute £550,000 derived from levies on stocks and sales of butter, so that the total expenditure on butter subsidies, cold storage allowances, and losses on the sale of butter imported between December, 1951, and April, 1952, will amount to £1,865,000.

Before going on to deal with some other individual sub-heads, I should like to make some general remarks on agricultural production and on certain aspects of agricultural policy.

There seems to be a widespread belief not only that our agricultural production is low but that it is well below pre-war. In fact, I understand that the latest calculations of output show that the volume of net output in the year 1951 was greater than in 1938/39 and greater also than in 1950. The volume of gross output in 1951 was very slightly below 1938/39, but I think it will be agreed that as between these particular years the better basis of comparison is that of net outputs.

This is not, of course, to say that there is not great room for improvement in agricultural production in this country. I have repeatedly stressed the importance of increased production in the numerous addresses I have given during the past year at various meetings in different parts of the country. We want, in the first place, more land under wheat and beet, and secondly, greater production of feeding stuffs. This means more tillage, and I do not think that this is an excessive demand, considering that there is a smaller proportion of land under the plough in this country than in any other State in Western Europe. There is, of course, no conflict whatever between this policy and grass production. In fact, there is a crying need for a vast improvement in the quality of our grass, and this improvement, generally speaking, can only be achieved by taking the plough around the farm. In this way, we would not only manage to secure independence from outside sources of grain and sugar, but we would also be able to carry more cattle and to produce more milk.

If we could assume satisfactory export prices, a very rapid increase in agricultural production could be achieved here by pushing up the output of pigs, poultry and eggs. These branches of production lend themselves readily to rapid expansion, and in point of quality we can compete with any country in the world as regards these products. The possibility of a really big expansion hinges mainly on the growing of the necessary feeding stuffs at home—in particular, feeding barley and fodder beet.

To encourage the increased production of wheat the standard price for the 1952 crop was fixed at 75/- a barrel. A bonus of 2/6 a barrel will be payable for top grade wheat bushelling 60 lb. or over. During the past season half the wheat sold to the flour millers qualified for the quality bonus. It may be expected therefore that at least half the wheat to be sold this year will be paid for at the rate of 77/6 per barrel. As in previous years farmers have a guaranteed market for all millable wheat produced by them so that in this respect they are in a very advantageous position so far as this particular crop is concerned.

It is unfortunate that the wheat midge has appeared again in several counties this year, but this time we have been better able to cope with it. Farmers have adopted our advice to spray their crops with DDT preparations just before the wheat ears out. I know that the staffs of the county committees of agriculture have been particularly active in their efforts to see that these precautions are taken. It is expected that where farmers have taken the measures advised the damage likely to be caused by the midge will be slight. While spraying the crop with DDT preparations appears to have given good results in combating the wheat midge the possibility of devising other effective control measures has not been overlooked and experiments have been carried out to test the efficiency of other methods of dealing with the pest.

As the dairying industry occupies such a pivotal position, I have given considerable attention to it since I assumed office. I am satisfied that we cannot see the problems of the dairying industry in their true perspective unless we have some idea of the actual cost of producing milk. For that purpose, I have made arrangements for a representative committee to take in hands an investigation of the costs of production. The technical direction of the investigation will be in charge of Professor Murphy of University College, Cork, a recognised authority on this subject. The preliminary arrangements for the investigation are in process of being made, and it is hoped that it will be possible to start the field work in the autumn. The milk cost investigation will be valuable not only for the information it will make available on costs of milk production but also for the light it will throw on the finances of farming generally in the creamery and liquid milk areas. I feel the findings of the investigation should prove of great value in the development of Government policy in the future.

I have already explained how the withdrawal of the butter subsidy affects the provisions in the Estimate. After the end of rationing the Government will continue to pay out of State funds the cost of the cold storage of surplus summer production of creamery butter held for use during the winter months of low production. The creamery industry is being consulted about the nature of the organisation necessary to give effect to these arrangements. In the meantime the existing machinery is being continued. It is hoped that production of creamery butter will reach a level sufficiently high to obviate the necessity for further imports of butter. Production of creamery butter so far this season is appreciably better than for the corresponding period of 1951. We cannot predict how consumption is going to be affected by the removal of controls and the ending of rationing. The situation will, therefore, require close and continuous attention for some time.

While there is undoubtedly considerable scope for an improvement in milk yields, there seems to be a mistaken impression that total milk production in this country has declined very considerably compared with pre-war. This is not the case. Average total production of milk for all purposes is estimated to have been about 489,000,000 gallons in 1938/39 and about 485,000,000 gallons in 1951. What has happened is that home consumption of milk products, particularly butter, has increased and our exports of milk products have consisted almost entirely of products other than butter. Home consumption of creamery butter increased by 73 per cent since 1938. Exports of non-butter milk products in 1938 accounted for roughly 10,000,000 gallons of whole milk and by 1951 this figure had increased to 28,000,000 gallons. In general these are healthy developments. While the price of creamery butter was heavily subsidised, however, the whole pattern of the butter trade was distorted.

Two increases in creamery milk prices and in the price of milk sold for liquid consumption in the Dublin and Cork Milk Board areas were granted during the financial year 1951/52—in May and July, 1951. Over a period of 12 months, these increases together represented a rise in the price paid to the producer of 2d. per gallon compared with 1950/51. As has already been announced, the Government, after careful consideration, have decided that the prices announced last July would continue. It will, of course, be appreciated that the price for the year beginning 1st May, 1952, is higher than the average price for the year beginning 1st May, 1951, because the second price increase granted in the financial year 1951/52 did not come into operation until 1st July, 1951. I cannot too strongly emphasise my view that the financial returns for the dairy farmer could be greatly increased if milk yields per cow were raised if only by a modest percentage.

In the field of live-stock production, the dependence for progress on increased home production of essential feed supplies is, as I have already emphasised, a first consideration. This is so particularly, perhaps, in the case of pig production. There is no doubt but that it will pay farmers well to grow themselves as much as possible of the feeding stuffs they require for increased pig production.

For the first five months of 1952, the number of pigs delivered to bacon factories was 223,000 as compared with 196,000 in the corresponding period of 1951. Some exports to Great Britain under the long-term agreement made last year with the British Ministry of Food have already taken place and pig producers are assured under the arrangements embodied in the agreement of prices, already announced, which will change only according as prices to British producers change. There is every reason, therefore, to hope for continued improvement and growing confidence in pig production, based on increased supplies of home-grown feed such as barley, potatoes and fodder beet. The export prices are weighted against over-fat pigs and farmers should therefore ensure that their pigs are marketed at the right stage of finishing for bacon purposes and are not too heavy.

The Ministry of Food prices for cattle and sheep show a further appreciable increase in 1952/53 and it is to be hoped that the peak prices offered for cattle in the late spring months will lead to some increase in stall feeding. The spread between the price of cattle at this period and in the late autumn is such that the producer whose economy enables him to market well finished cattle in the late spring will benefit materially by doing so.

An important development in cattle breeding has been the progress of artificial insemination, now being carried on from six main stations with 18 sub-stations. In 1951 a new main station was established by the Dairy Disposal Company in County Kerry with sub-stations at Cahirciveen, Castlemaine, Rathmore and Listowel. A new main station was also established by my Department at Clonakilty Agricultural School, as well as two sub-stations, at Killeshandra and Lough Egish creameries, to the Department's existing main station at Grange, County Meath. This year arrangements have been going ahead for the establishing of a new main station by the Dairy Disposal Company, Limited, near Ennis, County Clare, with sub-stations at Ennistymon, Kilrush and Scariff creameries. In the Tipperary-Kilkenny area, a group of co-operative societies has established a main station in the area with four sub-stations. Two sub-stations to Clonakilty main station are also being established this year at creameries in the Macroom and Skibbereen district, and it is hoped that the Cork and Dublin Milk Boards will before long, under the Milk (Regulation of Supply and Price) (Amendment) Act, 1952, recently passed by the Oireachtas, participate in the establishment of sub-stations in their areas to the Clonakilty and Grange main stations respectively. The foregoing facilities, together with those provided by Mallow and Mitchelstown Creameries, will cover for the most part the dairying and milk production districts of the country. Precautions have been taken to ensure that an appropriate level of inseminations with dairy shorthorn bulls is maintained in the interests of the basic live-stock economy of the country.

The increase in exports of beef, mutton and lamb slaughtered in this country has been a welcome feature in the marketing of live stock. During the year ended 31st March, 1952, exports of carcase meat and canned meat totalled almost 36,000 tons as compared with 18,000 tons in the year ended 31st March, 1951, and 10,000 tons in the year ended 31st March, 1950. I am hopeful that good progress will continue to be achieved in this direction, but I would like to advise intending new entrants to the trade that the slaughtering capacity at existing premises is considerably in excess of present exports, and the volume of refrigeration facilities for meat exports is also growing rapidly. Hence, newcomers to this trade will be entering a very competitive field, and one in which particular competence will be required for its successful development in the future.

This country has mercifully been spared the ravages of foot-and-mouth disease which since last autumn has done so much damage in other European countries, including Great Britain. Control of the disease in the latter country especially is of great importance to us here and we have been happy to co-operate with the British authorities by making available to them the services of some veterinary officers to assist in the task of eradicating the infection. There has also been close co-operation with the Six-County authorities in the execution of measures designed to eliminate the risk of infection being introduced into Ireland. It behoves all concerned at this juncture to take adequate safeguards to minimise the degree of risk involved. My Department has adopted all practicable measures for this purpose. Earlier this year an entry card system was introduced under which sea and air passengers arriving in the country are required to enter on a special card certain particulars which enable the Department's staff at the ports to carry out a thorough disinfection in appropriate cases. This system is working very satisfactorily. As to the future, constant vigilance both on the part of the public and of the State will be essential.

I would like to mention here also certain statements in the Press recently about the value of immunisation of cattle against foot-and-mouth disease as compared with adoption of the policy of slaughtering affected animals. Abandonment of the slaughter policy by a country is simply a confession that complete eradication of the disease has become impracticable in that country because of its wide diffusion amongst stock, and I hope that such a position will never obtain here. Immunisation does not get rid of the disease, and this should be clearly understood by everyone. It merely mitigates its general effect as a permanent feature of the live-stock situation, but does not prevent recurring losses of substantial magnitude —losses certainly immeasurable greater than the slaughter of affected animals while the disease can be completely eradicated by this means.

As regards those live-stock diseases from which, unfortunately, this country is not free, I would refer, in particular, to bovine tuberculosis and contagious abortion. The Government has been giving close attention to the question of securing the use of part of the American Grant Counterpart moneys to make a start with the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, which is a problem of considerable complexity and financial magnitude. Examination of the matter will be pushed ahead with a view to the earliest possible action being taken. The existing scheme of especially low fees for the vaccination of cattle against contagious abortion does not appear to be meeting with the popularity it deserves. Vaccination is the best preventive against the disease, and is eminently satisfactory for that purpose. It cannot be expected, however, to cure the disease where already existing, and farmers should appreciate this fact. I would urge, therefore, that the scheme be much more widely availed of for protecting young stock against the disease and thus building up in a relatively short period herds which will be completely free of affected animals.

The low prices paid by the British Ministry of Food for our egg exports last year had a depressing effect on our poultry stocks and on our exports of eggs which were much below those for similar periods in 1949 and 1950. This year we have done somewhat better, and I have been able to arrange that poultry keepers will be given 2/9 per dozen for eggs from the 1st February to the end of July, and 3/6 a dozen from August to January next. The improved prices have reflected themselves in the stepping up of the exports of eggs, but I do not think the prices are yet sufficient, as they are out of line with costs. We are normally one of Great Britain's principal suppliers of eggs, and I think it is in the mutual interests of both countries that this trade should be maintained at the highest level, particularly in view of the present position of the sterling area reserves. We cannot, however, hope to increase our exports unless we get satisfactory prices. For our part, we are endeavouring to bring down costs of production by improving the standard of the fowl kept on our farms and by the elimination of disease. We are also encouraging in every possible way the increased production of home-grown feeding stuffs for poultry.

At the same time, we do not neglect any opportunity of developing alternative markets for our eggs, and we have this year been able to make a satisfactory arrangement for the export of a substantial quantity to Spain under last year's trade agreement with that country.

The trade in dead poultry with Great Britain is also of considerable importance. So far I have been able to arrange to maintain the price of table chickens at last year's figures and I have announced my intention to continue this until the 15th August. The prices for poultry have however declined on the British Market and in recent months it has only been possible to pay the announced prices to our producers by drawing on reserves. Poultry is now sold in Great Britain on a free and highly competitive market and the indications are that the present rather low prices are not going to improve in the near future.

I drew attention in my opening remarks to a new sub-head, G.5, providing for a sum of £400,000 as a repayable advance in respect of the importation of superphosphate. A special word of explanation is called for as to the circumstances which have made this provision necessary. The Irish Sugar Co. Ltd., acting as the authorised agent of the Minister for Agriculture, imported superphosphate under contract from Holland. The cargoes had to be paid for on arrival and as some time must elapse before the imports are sold to farmers the importations have been financed by means of a bank overdraft on the company's banking account. The banking arrangement contemplated that the company should repay 40 per cent. of its overdraft by the 30th June and the remaining 60 per cent. by the 31st December. As the sales of superphosphate were very slow the company was not in possession of its normal liquid funds and it was necessary for me to fulfil the undertaking I gave in connection with the importation of the fertilisers to enable the company to clear its overdraft. This advance will be repayable to my Department according as the imported superphosphate is sold by the company.

I think it is disappointing that there was such a slow sale for fertilisers generally during the past season. There is no doubt that our agriculture requires the use of very considerably increased quantities of fertilisers, and this applies not only to crops but to pastures. We are among the countries who use the lowest quantities of fertiliser per acre in Western Europe. Although I fully realise the effect of the rather sharp increase in prices which took place this year, I still think that taking one year with another it would pay farmers to use fertilisers far more liberally as a matter of normal farming practice. If there is any farmer who has any doubts as to the beneficial effects of the use of fertilisers, he should look at the trials conducted in his own county by the county committee of agriculture, or if he can spare the time he should try to pay a visit to Johnstown Castle, County Wex-ford, and see some of the trials in progress there.

I was very much struck by the remarkable results which emerged from one trial in particular. In this test an area comprising 24 acres of unproductive pasture was ploughed, limed, manured and reseeded in the autumn of 1949, and notwithstanding the heavy outlay of over £20 an acre for cultivation, liming, manuring and seeding, this land showed a profit from grazing in the first year (1950) of £15 an acre, and in the second year (1951) the profit was even higher. A remarkable feature of the trial is the early growth of grass which was observed this year (1952). The treated land was fit for grazing in the first few days of April, a month earlier than any similar land in the locality. I am firmly convinced that of the many factors influencing agricultural production adequate fertilising coupled with liming is of the greatest importance.

The use of ground limestone is now recognised as the only practical way of correcting soil acidity which is so prevalent. It would be quite impossible to meet the situation by the former practice of using burned lime. At present there are 18 permanent plants producing ground limestone and for the last year there has been a subsidy on the transport of the limestone so that it can be delivered anywhere at a price not exceeding 16/- a ton. While the production and use of ground limestone has been increasing, we are very far from reaching the point at which adequate quantities are being spread. Among the factors that handicap development is the disinclination of farmers to place orders for delivery during the summer and autumn. The whole subject is at present being inquired into in my Department with a view to seeing what further steps can be taken to promote the production and use of ground limestone.

Land reclamation continues to represent one of the biggest items of expenditure on my Vote. By the time the Estimate was prepared the picture was becoming more clear of the progress which could be made in a year. The staff has now become better versed in the problems of the work and schemes of drainage and reclamation are being prepared and approved more speedily than formerly. The farmers who are electing to do the work themselves are tackling the schemes successfully and are qualifying for grants in larger numbers. The direct action work which has been carried out by my Department is also expanding rapidly. The number of skilled and unskilled men employed for this work has almost trebled within the past year. Contractors have also become more experienced in the use of machinery and are carrying out the drainage and reclamation work more efficiently and expeditiously. Additional contractors are gradually acquiring machinery units and entering into the land reclamation operations either for farmers or under direct contract with the Department. The ratio of administrative expenses to the total expenditure, which in the first few years was rather high, has now fallen to about 16.9 per cent.

I am satisfied that the project is making good progress. I estimate that, in the year 1952/53—the year covered by the Estimate—at least 20,000 farmers will complete drainage and reclamation schemes on their holdings and will qualify for grants. This would represent an area of increased production of about 100,000 acres. It is also estimated that extensive drainage work, involving the complete rehabilitation of hitherto unproductive land, will be carried out by the Department on an area of about 20,000 acres. It is expected that the grants to be earned by farmers who carry out the work themselves will amount to about £550,000.

One difficulty which the scheme encountered was the supply of suitable drainage pipes. In the early stages the concrete pipes being used were found not to be suitable in acid soil conditions, and it was necessary to turn to the use of clay drainage pipes. Unfortunately, the home production of clay pipes is limited, and is unable to meet the demand. It has been necessary, therefore, to import considerable quantities of clay drainage pipes. Certain home concerns are interesting themselves in expanding the production of these pipes, but there is still a very considerable demand in excess of what the home production can meet.

Under the farm buildings scheme, which is provided for in sub-head M (8), the total number of applications received from the start of the scheme about four years ago is 80,800. A number of these were subsequently withdrawn for various reasons. The number of authorisations issued to commence work under the scheme is nearly 60,000, and the amount of money paid in grants, including poultry-house grants, is £525,000 approximately.

I am glad to be able to announce that as from 1st August the grants payable under this scheme for new buildings will be increased by amounts varying from 25 per cent. to 66? per cent. with an increase in one case of 100 per cent. Full details of these increased grants will be published in an official advertisement which my Department will issue soon. There is no doubt that the farm buildings scheme serves a very useful purpose as a great many of the farm buildings of the country require to be replaced or extensively repaired.

The increase of nearly £18,000 in the normal grant to county committees of agriculture shown under sub-head H indicates the extent to which the committees have succeeded in obtaining increased agricultural rates from their county councils. The amount of the normal grant is approximately equivalent to the total proceeds of the agricultural rate made available for the purposes of the county committees. The increased funds available to the committees are being utilised in expanding their existing schemes and particularly in providing for the employment of additional instructors in agriculture, horticulture and poultry-keeping.

My predecessor was in favour of transferring the agricultural advisory services from the county committees to the Department. At the time he left office certain preliminary steps had been taken in that direction. I fully agree with the need for increasing the staff of advisory officers, but I differ with my predecessor as to how this should be done. My idea is that the advisory services should continue to be administered through the county committees of agriculture. I think that it is of great importance not to break the links that have been forged over the years between the advisory officers and the representatives of the local community in matters which are peculiarly suitable for local organisation. For these reasons I decided not to go ahead with my predecessor's scheme, but instead to ask the committees to strengthen their existing services, and I promised them to give them all the facilities I could to do that. A year ago there were 88 instructors in agriculture in the employment of the county committees; to-day there are 107. I have no doubt that a very considerable advantage would accrue from having an adequate number of instructors available throughout the country, and I am hoping that the county committees will continue to expand this service to the utmost.

I have touched on some of the sub-heads involving items of considerable expenditure and on certain aspects of the policy which I have been expounding for the last year. The Vote is such an extensive one and covers such a variety of services and items that it would be impossible, without detaining the House for a very long time, to go into them all individually. In order to assist Deputies I have continued the practice, which has grown up in the last few years, of circulating a White Paper containing a good deal of information relating to the work of my Department. Deputies will no doubt find in this a good many answers to the questions which may have occurred to them in the course of my statement. If it is felt there are any points not dealt with in my present statement or in the White Paper, I will address myself to them when concluding the debate.

Deputy Dillon has two motions down in connection with this Vote. Would the Deputy consider discussing the two together and divisions can be taken separately if desired afterwards?

If is agreeable to you and to the House, certainly, Sir.

The Deputy will move the major motion first?

Yes, Sir. I move that the Vote be referred back for reconsideration. Bearing in mind the marathons which I had to endure, when I occupied the unenviable position of the present Minister, perhaps he expects that I should emulate that example and give the House a lead in acrimony in discussing this Estimate. I should be long sorry to do so. The Department of Agriculture is much too precious to this country to be made the subject of acrimonious political football across the floor of this House. I have always believed it to be the main protector and the custodian of the standard of living of our people. I have always regarded it as the best Department of State in this country. If much that the Minister has said to-day evoked little dissent from this side of the House I think, instead of making that an occasion of rebuke or jeering comment, we should rejoice on all sides of the House that so large an area of agricultural policy in this country appears to have been withdrawn from the arena of political controversy. I have no desire to make the comment that I could make, that if much of what the Minister read out to-day, is compared with my annual statements over the past three years, very minor differences would emerge. I find myself frankly in almost entire agreement with the views expressed by the Minister with only certain minor reservations.

I think it proper at this stage to mention that the secondary motion I have down is directed to the matter to which he himself has referred—the difference in policy which exists between us on the most appropriate method of reorganising the advisory services provided by the county committees of agriculture, and which I thought could be more advantageously provided on the basis of the parish plan.

I particularly welcome the fact that the Minister boldly determined to-day to glory in the triumphs of his own Department. I welcome his announcement, so incisively stated, that he is sick listening to people blathering about the failure of the agricultural industry to produce. I am going to ask Deputies on all sides of the House to eschew the temptation to differentiate between the Minister's Estimates to-day and much of the publicity that has gone on in recent times, designed to denigrate the agricultural industry and its achievements. I stand on the export figures published by the Central Office of Statistics yesterday, which show that the exports and re-exports of this country for the six months of 1952 have reached the record figure for all time of over £45,000,000 sterling, and those exports are in the vast majority the fruit of the agricultural industry.

I can remember confidently predicting in this House that if we had but confidence in ourselves, our own capacity to produce from the land of Ireland would supply a surplus for export amply sufficient to finance any imports that our people might hereafter require. To achieve that we had boldly to invest in our own land and in our own people, confidently to face the adverse trade balance which that investment inevitably evoked during the period of this investment, in the certain knowledge that, the bolder we were in investment in the land and the people who live upon it, the more encouraging, the more rewarding, and the more certain would our return ultimately be. I ask the House to look at those figures now.

I welcome something else. When the Minister was very recently in his Department he lent himself. I think unwittingly, to a most unjust reflection on a section of his own Department which I think he has come to realise was not only ungenerous but unjust. There was a silly ignorant finance ramp which got short shrift from me, that the administrative expenses of the land project bore no relation to the work done or the moneys paid out to individual farmers. Anyone with experience of administration knew that when you were building up something which extended over the whole country and which, as the Minister said to-day, involved in many instances unprecedented problems of training an entire staff in a completely new enterprise, in the initial stages the administrative costs were bound to appear high, because, until the staff was trained and deployed, the return could not come in. I stated repeatedly in this House that I had not the slightest anxiety on that score, that in the first two or three years the administrative costs were bound to appear high, that in the first year one might expect to get virtually nothing from the outlay, in the second year a trickle, in the third year a return, and in the fourth year and thereafter abundance. I think I have been amply vindicated in that prophecy and I interpret the Minister's triumphant announcement of the figures which he has presented to the House this afternoon as a complete vindication of my faith in that section of the Department.

I do not want to press the Minister unduly, but I bitterly resent the observations he made in regard to that matter 12 months ago. I do not think I would be unduly exigeant if I told him that I expect some amend, some admission on his part, that the land rehabilitation project has most handsomely justified every penny provided for its organisation and deployment.

I am glad to endorse emphatically what the Minister says in regard to ground limestone. I shall return to that aspect of the Vote when dealing with the question of advisory services because there, I believe, the key to the solution of that difficulty can be found.

I endorse and support the Minister emphatically in his statement relating to eggs. I told the British Minister of Food myself that if he thought to get cheap eggs from Ireland by arbitrarily reducing the price paid by the British Ministry of Food he was living in a fool's paradise, and that, if he reduced the price of eggs below the economic level for eggs he would get no eggs, and that I would do all in my power to see that he would, in no circumstances, get cheap eggs from Ireland.

We have never sought, in the British market, black market prices. We have never sought, though on occasion we might have, to avail of their difficulties. We have never sought, as certain other suppliers of theirs have done, to trade upon the fact that they were hungry. We have, in fact, refused to contemplate trading with them on the basis of black market prices, but we have consistently said that we demand for our producers an economic price and that if we do not get it our concern will be to enable our producers to get out of that line of production altogether.

Let me repeat now, that the present Minister for Agriculture, in pressing that view upon the British Minister of Food, enjoys my full support. He need never apprehend that if he comes back to Dáil Eireann with a dusty answer from the British Minister of Food that he will be rebuked for not having given way to any unreasonable demand made upon him. When he goes to the British Minister of Food we do not expect him to perform miracles, and we do assure him that he need never be blackmailed into accepting uneconomic prices. Should he be constrained to reject the offer on the grounds of its being uneconomic, he can come back to a Dáil that will be prepared to sustain and support him, and that will refrain from any misrepresentation designed to make his task of negotiation any more difficult than it ordinarily is. Perhaps there will be many occasions when I may be tempted to say that during my administration I wish I could have depended on as much. I must ask the House to excuse me for indulging in that reflection, as I may have occasion to do repeatedly in the course of my observations. Having said it once I will say it no more.

Now, I want to say that if I have a complaint to make under the motion to refer back it is this, that, instead of the hum of industry which I would like to hear resounding from the portals of the Department of Agriculture, I seem to have detected occasionally the melodious sound of a deep sleep in the last 12 months. If I thought that the sleeper slept in dignified peace I would excuse him, but, when the tapes of the strait-jacket originating in Kildare Street have on occasion to flutter from the windows of Upper Merrion Street, I wondered did the Minister for Agriculture doubt that the farmer-Deputy on this side of the House would hold up his hand in any conflict in which he might be engaged to defend the interests of agriculture against the rapacity of the so-called industrialists? I do not deny that, from the day I went into Upper Merrion Street I fought a running battle every day against the demands of the Department of Industry and Commerce to walk on the Department of Agriculture. I would like to think that, when I left Upper Merrion Street, Kildare Street had a very hot foot. I hope that the boot is not now on the other foot.

I remember there was a time when the price of hides was acknowledged to be a matter of as much consequence to the Minister for Agriculture as it was to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. When I came into office, the Minister for Industry and Commerce had fixed a price for hides ranging from 4 ½d. a lb. to 8d. a lb. The world price for hides at that time was 3/- a lb. Taking an average of 6d. a lb. payable for Irish hides, there was 2/6 a lb. levied by the hide merchants and leather manufacturers in this country on every hide flayed off a beast slaughtered in an Irish abattoir. Taking the average weight of a hide at 60 lbs., there was £7 10s. per beast levied by the hide merchants and the leather industry on every beast slaughtered in an Irish abattoir, and that went on for ten years. Then there was a fight. I pointed out that we were importing up to £750,000 worth of Argentine hides every year and that if only we paid our own farmers a price approximating to the world price for the hides flayed off their cattle at home, we would be able to build up a carcase meat industry in this country and would be able to obviate the import of Argentine hides altogether. That battle went on for months. We finally established the principle that, in respect of hides flayed off Irish cattle for export, 2/6 a lb. would be paid, while in respect of hides flayed off Irish cattle for domestic consumption I only got the price up to 10d., but that was an improvement on 4d. to 8d.

What was the result? Within 18 months or less, not only did it become unnecessary to import hides from the Argentine but we had a large surplus of hides in our own country. As the Minister has reported to the House, a slaughter capacity for the export of carcase meat was developed which, he rightly says, is now very nearly equal to all the probable demand that may be made upon it and in the light of which he rightly says to the new entrants to the trade that they should walk warily and realise that they are entering a highly competitive trade. I want the House to know that all that was brought about once conviction was carried to the mind of Kildare Street that it did not pay to rob the farmer of £7 10s. per hide in respect of every beast slaughtered in this country for consumption or export. I am sorry to observe that a new schedule of prices has recently been fixed by the Department of Industry and Commerce for hides in this country which I do not think is equitable, bearing in mind world prices. I want to impress on the Minister for Agriculture that the time has come when he should say to the Minister for Industry and Commerce: "This whole business of the regulation of hides must stop. There is no reason why the hide merchants, on the one hand, and the leather factories on the other hand, should not buy hides at world prices. If they want hides flayed off Irish cattle let them outbid those who want to buy them abroad." Failure to operate that policy in the past resulted in there being no hides and in our having to pay the Argentine three and four prices for hides. All I am suggesting now is that the whole abominable ring which controls hides in this country should be smashed, that a free market be created in hides and that the hide merchants, the leather merchants and the whole gang who batten on the live-stock industry of this country at present should pay the market prices. If you do, you will have a continued expansion in the dead meat trade, with all the employment that that brings with it, an adequate supply of hides for the domestic requirements of the country and a fair price for the farmer. Why should the farmers of this country be made the subject of one of the most unscrupulous and tyrannical cartels that ever disgraced any country?

Let me tell the House the story of the revolting racket which operated in hides. The whole business began with the rotten Fellmongers Act passed about 1934 by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. That Act prohibited the export of a sheepskin with wool adhering thereto, thus throwing into the hands of the fellmongers of this country every sheepskin in this country. They pulled the wool off the skins and then sold them freely for what the wool and residual hide would fetch. But a farmer would not be allowed to export a skin with the wool adhering to it because the Fellmongers Act prohibited it. I remember that, shortly after that Act was passed, the Minister for Industry and Commerce prohibited the export of wool except under licence—whereupon the fellmongers came to interview the Opposition. They made a most piteous case. They were quite indignant when I asked them: "Is he not doing to you now, in part only, what you got him to do to the farmers in toto?” They replied: “It is one thing to do it to the farmers, but it is another thing to do it to industrialists—and we are industrialists.” So far as I was able, I threw them out and said: “The devil mend you and may you get more of it.” They decided that that line of approach could not profitably be adopted again, so then they invented the Hide Improvement Society. The public were intended to believe that this was a society designed to improve hides. In fact, it was a society to improve hide merchants, because, having established it for the lofty purpose of improving the hides of Ireland, the next stage was that only persons who belonged to the Hide Improvement Society would be allowed to deal in hides. The war made that possible. From that hour forward, it would have been easier to secure a nomination to the College of Cardinals than to secure admission to the Hide Improvement Society. Lo and behold, the Hide Improvement Society, for the purpose of carrying out these improvements, paid 4d. a 1b. for hides when they were worth 3/- a 1b. in Birmingham.

If you had 40 hides and you wanted to sell them to a tanner you could not do it. You had to communicate with a member of the Hide Improvement Society. He told you what tanner to send them to. You invoiced them to the member of the Hide Improvement Society, and he invoiced them to the tanner. You got 4d. I do not know what the other fellows got, but I know that the tanners, at the end of the war, issued 100 per cent. bonus shares to their shareholders. The hide merchants, having taken the prudent precaution of not constituting themselves public companies, distributed the plunder amongst themselves, and nobody but the Revenue Commissioners know what happened, and I doubt very much if they know all. But one thing is certain. That £7 10s. was levied on every beast for part of the time, and from that down to £5 a head to enrich the hide merchants and the tanners of this country. They did not give a damn whether the maintenance of that levy forced the State into paying out £750,000 a year of hard currency to the Argentine to buy hides. Rather than let loose the prey into which they had sunk their talons, they allowed that situation to obtain—and that situation obtained with the sanction and approval of the Department of Industry and Commerce. It obtains no more. I invite the Minister for Agriculture to be vigilant lest such a situation should be allowed to arise again. I suggest to him that the only security against such a situation arising again is the complete removal of the control on the sale of hides, so that domestic purchasers will pay whatever the world price may from time to time be. The hide merchants are an enterprising lot, because when the half-crown was fixed for the foreign hides the boys would just not buy.

At this moment, £500,000 is outstanding—due by the hide merchants to small butchers and slaughter house proprietors all over this country. I think the Minister should tell us before this debate is over how and when these debts will be liquidated because they are causing very acute suffering to some of the smaller men who are being pressed by their bankers to liquidate overdrafts which they have now to carry on the proceeds of hides sold and delivered to members of the Hide Improvement Society.

I wish the Minister had had the resolution to comment more precisely on some of the statements made by his colleague, the Minister for External Affairs when he spoke of the land reclaimed under the land rehabilitation scheme in Louth. I think the Minister might have called upon the Fianna Fáil Pravda to do public penance for its disreputable leading article when it described the land project as having spent up to £500 per acre on the rehabilitation of land. The Minister might have called upon his Parliamentary Secretary who sits behind him to amend his judgment on the Connemara scheme. Come, we have reached a stage when you either ought to stop it or endorse it. Both policies cannot be right. It is either a fraudulent, vote-catching scheme initiated by me or else it is a proper outlay of public money to mitigate the rigours inevitably associated with farming in Connemara. I claim it is the latter. The Parliamentary Secretary who sits behind the Minister now claims the opposite. Surely he is not going to degrade himself by continuing to sanction the expenditure of public money on an operation that he says is fraudulent, disreputable, uneconomic and wrong, or is he so debased that rather than give up his measly £1,800 he would swallow anything?

The Deputy should not make personal attacks on the Parliamentary Secretary.

With respect, Sir, I will attack him most vigorously. I have been waiting for the opportunity of holding him up to odium and I think I am entitled——

Personal attacks are not in order in this House.

I am attacking the Parliamentary Secretary. He stated in this House that this scheme was fraudulent and wrong. Comes now the Estimate. Let him answer. Does he stand over the appropriation of public money for the perpetuation of a scheme which he said was fraudulent and wrong, or does he eat his words?

Apply that argument to the glasshouses.

Or does he proclaim that rather than give up the remuneration he receives as Parliamentary Secretary he is prepared to do wrong?

What did you do about the glasshouses?

I am not talking about glasshouses. I am talking about the land rehabilitation scheme and its operation in Connemara. I want the Parliamentary Secretary to intervene in this debate——

I certainly will.

—— and salvage or abandon the scheme to personal honour. I sympathise with the Minister's anxiety about his colleague.

Mr. Walsh

I am sympathising with you at the moment.

I want all the Minister's sympathy, for to have to look at his Parliamentary Secretary is a very great affliction when the Minister remembers the impudent diatribes for which his Parliamentary Secretary was responsible 18 months ago. I do not doubt he does sympathise with me but I think something more than sympathy is requisite now. Personal honour is at stake. Nobody can hold public office and do wrong. The Minister's Parliamentary Secretary now has the opportunity of vindicating what he said when he sat there and he can vindicate it by resigning. But I will give ten to one he will not resign. He will eat his words. He will crawl through Connemara on all fours if needs be, but if he enters at one end of Connemara on all fours he will come out the other on all fours, still a Parliamentary Secretary so long as anybody will have him as Parliamentary Secretary.

That is the most stupid interjection we have heard.

As the Deputy never heard of the man who walked by the graveyard and whistled to encourage himself, Deputy McGrath is whistling to encourage the Parliamentary Secretary. Let us not forget that Deputy McGrath is now a Lord Mayor. His whistle counts for something now——

Hear, hear!

——especially when he was not invested with his present honours in the Bleeding Horse. I am proud of the work we did in Connemara. I invite any Deputy of this House to come down to the parish of Casla and see there five acres of one holding cleared of rock and see small farmers having done for them by the community what they saw the landlords get done for themselves when they paid their grandfathers a penny a day to do it. I invite Deputy Calleary to rejoice with me that, in Erris and Connemara, despite the exhortations of the Taoiseach to get out of the poor land and to concentrate on the rich land that would give a good and an immediate return, no farmers have benefited more quickly or more dramatically than the farmers in the poorest parishes in Erris and Connemara. If there is any work done by the land project on which I would wish to be judged, I choose the work in Connemara and in Erris, and on that I will stand or fall.

Did you hear the grunt?

There will be many a grunt before I have done with them. I asked the Minister some time ago, on 15th May of this year to be correct, whether:—

". . . any lime subsidy scheme operated by his Department has been stopped since February, 1948; and, if so, when and what scheme?"

That arose out of one of the imbecile contributions of the Minister for External Affairs who alleged that the lime scheme in operation by our predecessors had been stopped by us subsequent to 1948. The Minister, under duress, I should imagine, replied:—

"The answer is in the affirmative. The lime subsidy scheme (reclamation and drainage) which operated in conjunction with the farm improvements scheme, lapsed with the termination of the latter scheme on the 31st December, 1950.

In addition, the lime subsidy scheme formerly operated through the county committees of agriculture was discontinued on 31st December, 1950."

I asked then if he would indicate the amount of money that was employed in these schemes in relation to lime, and now I must ask Deputies to refer to the Official Report for the grotesque reply because it transpired that the amount of money actually laid out by the local authorities under these lime schemes was microscopic and had no relation to the present outlay on lime subsidisation.

Has your attention been directed, Sir, to the disgraceful conduct of Deputy McGrath and Deputy Killilea?

My attention has not been so directed but if Deputies wish to carry on a conversation they should do so outside. Deputy Dillon should be allowed to make his speech.

Deputy Killilea's mellifluous accent merely furnishes a Greek chorus for all I have to say, throwing into higher relief the pearls of wisdom that I cast before his feet. He must not read into that observation any more than I have actually said. I asked the Minister for Agriculture on 8th July of this year what he proposed to do to help the farmers in whom Deputy Allen used to be so interested. I notice Deputy Allen is not here tonight. I directed the Minister's attention to the fact that he had restored the subsidy on farmers' butter and thereby apparently suggested that its manufacture by individual farmers should be resumed and that he was making himself responsible for ensuring that there would be a remunerative market provided by his subsidy for whatever farmers' butter was produced.

I reported to him complaints from producers of farmers' butter that they could not sell their butter and that, even if he produced a subsidy, the butter dealers would not buy the butter. Here is the answer that I got:—

"Payment of subsidy on farmers' butter purchased by factories was introduced in order that producers would not be placed at a disadvantage in marketing such butter by reason of the low subsidised price at which creamery butter was then sold.

The vast bulk of farmers' butter produced is either consumed on the farm or sold locally, and, following the withdrawal of the subsidy on creamery butter and the consequential increase in the retail price of creamery butter to 3/10 per lb., I believe that first quality farmers' butter, the price of which is not controlled, will find a ready sale at a favourable price."

Mr. Walsh

It will.

I believe I wrote that answer two years ago.

Mr. Walsh

Did you?

And Deputies will find it in the appropriate column in the Official Report.

"As regards the relatively small surplus which reaches the butter factories, the Irish Dairy Butter Trade, Limited, Cork, is at present considering an offer from the British Minister of Food for the purchase of a trial consignment.

I may say, for the information of the Deputy, that, in one of the largest farm butter areas, my Department recently offered to supply a travelling creamery on the most favourable terms, but the offer was rejected."

That was South Wexford, was it not?

Mr. Walsh

No.

Mr. Walsh

All over the country.

But the Minister said:—

"I may say for the information of the Deputy that in one of the largest farm butter areas"——

Mr. Walsh

You are right, yes.

South Wexford?

Mr. Walsh

South Wexford.

The reply goes on:—

"A similar offer was made last year and also received no response."

Of course, the whole thing was a fraudulent racket. Any good farmers' butter that is manufactured is sold by the woman who makes it to her neighbours. I know that some of the sophisticated politicians on this side of the House are inclined to hit the desk and say: "Why did he say that? Why did he not chew the ear off him when he had him?" I do not do so because I do not believe it is right from any point of view to engage in fraudulent racketeering of that kind in this House. I know from long experience the zeal and the earnest consideration that is given to all matters relating to the dairying industry in the Department of Agriculture, and the desire of everybody there to do all in his power to help those in the dairying industry, either those engaged in the production of home butter or those engaged in the production of creamery butter, or in any other branch of that industry. To turn the whole business into a dirty racket for the purpose of kicking the Minister for Agriculture about this House is a wretched, unprofitable and indecent business. That trick was tried on me to the great detriment of a great number of helpless and decent people, who were induced to believe that it was through some reluctance on my part that they could not sell farmers' butter, and when the present Minister knew just as well as I did that the kind of butter they were trying to sell was not saleable. There was not a market for it, and no Minister could get a market for it.

Mr. Walsh

We have already found one for it.

Found what?

Mr. Walsh

A market in Great Britain for it.

At what price?

Mr. Walsh

At a good price.

God knows, you ought to have got the fellows to take it.

Mr. Walsh

We got a very good price for it.

For farmers' butter?

Mr. Walsh

Yes, factory butter.

How much are you paying in subsidy?

Mr. Walsh

There is no subsidy. Subsidies are gone.

What are you going to pay for that farmers' butter?

Mr. Walsh

Possibly about 2/3 per lb. for fresh, unsalted butter.

Where is Deputy Allen till he gets up and cheers? Here is Deputy Cogan. Will he give a cheer? Come, Deputy, a demonstration.

Mr. Walsh

2/3 per lb. for fresh, unsalted butter.

Deputy Cogan is delighted with 2/3 per lb. Would somebody go out and fetch in Deputy Allen? I would like to hear him give a hoarse and hollow cheer and then go back to the Wexford County Committee of Agriculture, and I can see the members there, both male and female, weep over him. God help him. I would not be in his boots going back to Wexford with the good news of 2/3 per lb. for all the money in the country. They will eat him alive.

Mr. Walsh

It is the same price as last year.

Dear me. God grant that I shall be in Wexford to see.

Mr. Walsh

You will not get away with that.

Get away with what?

Mr. Walsh

That laugh. That convinces nobody.

Do you think they will have triumphal arches and laurel wreaths for him?

Mr. Walsh

That derisive laugh convinces nobody.

I venture to say the Minister will not go down to Wexford County Committee of Agriculture for quite a considerable time.

Mr. Walsh

I will go anywhere.

Would the Minister tell us when he is going?

Mr. Walsh

Any time.

I will organise a Córas Iompair Éireann mystery tour. It will be so enjoyable. The truth is that the Minister with the best will in the world cannot work miracles. There may be a market for this commodity in the shape of unsweetened fat, or in some other guise as a manufactured product, but it will not yield the producer anything like the price obtainable for creamery milk. If the producer is going to get 2/3 out of it, it means that he uses two and a half gallons of milk to make a pound of butter and he will get about 10½d. a gallon for his milk and nothing for his labour. Is that not so?

Mr. Walsh

Oh, dear!

I do not blame the Minister for that. I think the Minister, doing the best he possibly can, cannot get more for this product than that sum. I do not believe it is a problem of any dimensions because I believe that the vast bulk of good farmers' butter is bought and paid for at a price equal to that paid for creamery butter in the neighbourhood where it is produced.

Mr. Walsh

Does the Deputy not know the difference between salted and unsalted butter?

I am trying to help the Minister. I refuse categorically to claim that I could do any better than the Minister in this. I want to make no case against the Minister whatever, but I want to pull Deputy Allen's leg because God help him when he goes back to Wexford. The thing was a cod and a racket when it was started. It is a cod and a racket now, and all I am concerned to ensure is that, if anybody is thinking of starting hares of that kind to confound or denigrate the Minister for Agriculture at present he will get no countenance from me.

The House will remember the welkin being made to ring about the mighty industry of the glasshouses in Connemara. Tomatoes were to come rolling in a rosy flood from Connemara so soon as Fianna Fáil were returned to office. The Parliamentary Secretary was going down to drape tomato vines over every cottage from Barna to Clifden. I have sat respectfully waiting for this rash of glasshouses to break out all over Connemara and after waiting in silence for a considerable time, for 12 months, Question No. 33 of 8th July was put down, asking for particulars about the Connemara and Donegal tomato schemes, the last particular asked under letter (h) of the question being: how many additional houses are to be built and when? I regret to inform the House that the answer that I got was that there has been no decision to erect additional glasshouses. If this was the means of converting Connemara, the Rosses and Gweedore into a land flowing with milk and honey, why has the Parliamentary Secretary held his hand?

I understand that a scheme is afoot to set onions, young onions, side by side with the mature tomato. If you have tears, prepare to shed them now, but to date I have not heard of any expansion of this acreage of onions or tomatoes. When may I expect to receive an invitation from the Minister for Agriculture to attend the inauguration of the next 200 houses? I do not think the Minister should be so coy. I understand that he has put in two turf stoves in the past 12 months. We will want to know before the Minister finishes whether he, sustained by his own Parliamentary Secretary and by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, proposes to erect more glasshouses in the immediate future and whether they are designed to shelter tomatoes or onions.

The House will remember how frequently the Minister proclaimed his faith in subsidising fertilisers. The House will remember his saying he thought the land rehabilitation project was all a cod, and that he would be in favour of spending the money on the subsidisation of fertilisers. He was an innocent man. It was not malice—it was just ignorance, and I like to think that it was the material in the reply to Question No. 48 on 15th May that completed his education. It is true that, in 1944, the Fianna Fáil Government appropriated no less a sum than £500,000 to subsidise fertilisers, but they spent £806 and returned £499,194 to the Treasury. In 1945 they were more reckless—they provided £120,000 and spent £15,000; in 1946 they provided £77,000 and spent £30,000. In 1947, a handsome gesture was in order —£198,000 was appropriated and £19,000 spent. Does the Minister intend to subsidise fertilisers? Come now—has the time not come for a little franchesse in this matter?

Mr. Walsh

Poor fellow, continue.

It is a fair question. Do you or do you not?

I want to say quite deliberately that I think he is right not to. I can well understand somebody thinking, looking at the question from the outside, that it was the obvious thing to do, and seeing, when he talked from the other side, what a fatal course it is to pursue, because the only consequence of subsidising artificial fertilisers in this country is to fatten the rapacious fertiliser ring, and of every three half-crowns of subsidy provided by the Minister for Agriculture, the ring would get two. There is no means of frustrating them, and subsidy is not the way to deal with that question. The proper method of dealing with it is to establish at Foynes a modern, up-to-date superphosphate factory, preferably for the manufacture of superphosphates without the use of sulphuric acid, and for the grinding of phosphate rock, operated by a company set up by the Minister for Agriculture for that purpose. Let private enterprise function side by side with that, but let the Minister know every day and every month and every year that there are being produced under his direction, by the most modern and efficient methods, superphosphates at the lowest possible price.

If any persons can undercut him, let them enter the market, and if they cannot, let him supply the demand. There is no other way out of it. No matter what device you employ to beat down the superphosphates cartel, if they know you are coming, you are quite powerless in their hands. The only reason that I got 100,000 tons from them is, I believe, that they offered it to me, never dreaming that I would be able to buy it. I am not blaming them; their job is to get the best price they can for their product. I found them in their dealings straight and their word was their bond, but they were the toughest eggs I ever had to deal with. Our job is to be as tough as they are, and I believe that they respect you if you are. The only way to do that is to have your own source of supply and say to them: "If you can sell it cheaper, go ahead; but if you cannot, the market is supplied." As soon as we can make up our mind to do this, we have the site, we have deep water, we have the demand, and the raw material is just as accessible to us as it is to the cartel. They tried to squeeze us out once. They will never try that again. There is no reason why we should not do it.

I heard with horror to-day the Minister for Industry and Commerce announce that he has revived the moth-eaten, disastrous proposal to manufacture sulphate of ammonia in this country. I warn this House that if sulphate of ammonia is manufactured in this country under tariff protection, the result will be a permanent tax of 5/- per statute acre on every acre of land in Ireland. Clanricarde never dared to try to impose such a tax on Ireland, but the superphosphates cartel is just waiting for the chance to clamp down on Ireland and do what Clanricarde never dared to do.

The background of this matter is that sulphate of ammonia is a source of agricultural nitrogen. I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that 1 cwt. should be put on every acre in Ireland every year if the maximum return is to be got from our land. We are in the fortunate position that we can bring into competition at the ports of Ireland the Chilean nitrate industry with the international superphosphates cartel.

I have had experience myself of the international cartel raising the price of sulphate of ammonia by 7/6 per ton. We imported Chilean nitrate of soda and the day the first cargo of nitrate of soda landed in Ireland we saw the sulphate of ammonia cartel take 7/6 off. They made no bones about it. Their attitude was "we thought we could squeeze you now we find we cannot and we must take it off."

All nitrogenous manures are evaluated in term of units of nitrogen. You can either use Chilean nitrate or sulphate of ammonia. We cannot make superphosphates in this country without getting technical assistance from some member of the international superphosphates cartel. We cannot make it without vast quantities of coal or other power—in fact all other power boils down to coal in the last analysis because we are using as much hydro-generated electricity as our water resources can produce. We have got gypsum but gypsum is the least important element.

I read out to the House to-day the exports of this country. The Minister has laid down what I consider to be the fundamental doctrine of agricultural exports: we will not promote agricultural imports for anything but an economic price. An economic price depends not only on what the buyer pays us but on what it costs our people to produce. If you take a tax of 5/- per acre on every acre of land in Ireland you will make a large section of our entire agricultural output uneconomic and you will require our farmers to accept a lower standard of living in order to maintain that volume of exports because they will have to find that annual tax. I am asking this House to assert that as long as the whole economic life of the country rests on the capacity of the agricultural industry to export no other interest in this country will be allowed to levy cost upon it for any reason.

This is the test case. An absolutely indispensable raw material of every agricultural operation in this country is nitrogen. There is no means by which our people can keep prices low except by competition. If we once allow the cartel to establish itself inside our jurisdiction and then persuade our Government to erect a protective tariff barrier, if we allow the cartel a place in Ireland, we are for ever its slaves because that vested interest would grow and grow in power until no Government would dare to tear it down again. There is a danger that specious argument will induce this House to agree to the establishment of this. I warn Deputies that if they do no power on earth can dislodge that stranglehold from our farmers.

I suggest that the Minister for Agriculture has a solemn duty to which he would be a traitor if he suffered this imposition to be laid upon those for whose welfare he is trustee. Certainly no Government of which I was ever a member would levy that charge upon the raw material of the agriculturist. I warn any racketeer who has in mind getting access to that blood vessel in the economic body of our people that if ever it comes within my power, no matter how deeply his fangs have sunk in, I will extract them whatever the cost, and I warrant that no matter how close a grip he gets on the agricultural community of this country, since we drove the landlords out of the country there is no vested interest in the world powerful enough to force our people to submission to a similar plan of levy. The Government of this country is the servant of our people and as its servant will sooner or later shake any such poisoned grip free.

I look to the Minister for Agriculture to make his influence felt now before his difficulties and ours are a thousand times multiplied and to stand fast on the principle that there shall be no tax or levy laid upon the raw materials of the agricultural industry which has to earn for everybody in the open competitive markets of the world.

I do not deny that when I am invited to speak on agriculture I experience an almost irresistible temptation to speak for ever. I do not do it with any desire to embarrass or distress the Minister, but because it is a matter which is close to my heart. I deliberately refrain, it is true, from pursuing a variety of other topics which I would feel tempted to pursue, because other Deputies wish to take part in this discussion and have something of value to contribute to it—save this, and on this I want to end.

I believe that the inadequate use of lime, of fertilisers, the inadequacies in our agricultural practice in all Departments, is due not to any reluctance or unwillingness on the part of farmers to work hard. My experience told me that that was not the problem with which we had to grapple. It was the same problem that one experienced oneself—lack of knowledge. When one was invited to undertake some new method, the trouble was that though one gave intellectual assent to the desirability of the new procedure one could not put it into operation for want of "know how." I remember that on my own small holding when ensilage was first introduced, I was deterred from engaging in silo grass, not because I doubted the wisdom of it economically but because I did not know how. I remember the difficulty being overcome for me and the man who was working with me, by an enterprising and energetic agricultural instructor who said he would come and make it with me. He took off his coat and we got to work for the first year's supply and we filled a pit and we stayed there until it was filled and sealed. We have never had any difficulty since. But neither I nor any of the men who worked with me could have embarked on that with any degree of confidence unless that man had come and lent his aid.

I do not think it is physically possible for 112 instructors throughout the whole of Ireland to give service approximating to that to the farmers. They have had too much to do. I do not think you can organise agricultural instruction on a county basis. There is not that community spirit throughout a whole county which will bring groups of people together and make it possible for the agricultural instructor to reach them all. I believe you can do it on the basis of the parish, that if you get a parish council working you have there a social unit which will draw the people into a natural association which already exists. I do not think there is a county in Ireland in which you will not find this difficulty. The North Tipperary people regard themselves as separate from those of South Tipperary. I suppose people in North Louth regard themselves as different from the people of South Louth. I hesitate to believe that North-West Mayo feels any very close identity with South-West Mayo. I suggest, however, that there is not a parish in Ireland in which you will not find a very real and social unit at present functioning.

If you can use that customary unity for the purpose of helping the people to improve their agricultural methods, by placing at their disposal adequate information of all that is doing in that particular kind of agriculture in which they must engage if they are to live, you are not going to perform a miracle overnight, but slowly you will get a degree of collaboration and co-operation which makes the existing system of agricultural instruction futile by comparison. I know how hard many of the agricultural instructors work, and I know also that many of them spend far too high a percentage of their total time dashing about on a bicycle, trying to get from centre to centre, so as to cover sufficiently frequently in the year the area allotted to them. They have the heartbreaking experience of seeing herculean work leave practically no trace behind it at all because their effort was scattered.

I know—and the Minister probably knows—that the result of putting parish agents in Bansha and Tydavnet and Ardee was quite incredible. I remember saying to the officers of what was then my Department, when going to Bansha: "We do not expect any results for the first 12 months; your difficulty is going to be to sit in the parish of Bansha feeling you were doing nothing; but, in fact, you are inaugurating an experiment which will radically alter the whole outlook of agriculture in this country." And so it turned out to be. For nine months a highly skilled officer of my Department functioned as parish agent in Bansha and achieved practically nothing. But before he left that parish he had visited every farm in Bansha, as the invited guest of the farmers of the district. Remember, he never crossed a threshold unless and until he was asked, but before he left the parish he had visited every farmhouse in Bansha as an invited guest.

I think the concept had become more familiar to us by the time the agent went to Tydavnet, and the measure of his success was quite dramatic. I had not so much experience of Ardee as I had of the other two and we had not expected the agent to be a great success there because we felt that the town of Ardee constituted too large a part of the parish to make an ideal area for the parish plan. It was deliberately carried out there to see if, in these unfavourable surroundings, it might falter or fail. There the most highly qualified observer told me that he had seen it inaugurated with considerable scepticism, but after 12 months, to his own amazement, he saw that practically the whole face of agriculture in the parish had changed.

I wanted then, and I still want—and I am convinced it is the key to the solution of many of our problems—to organise this country on the basis of three parishes to an agent. Three parishes constitute, on the average— three rural parishes—1,000 families. If you can provide a parish agent, proud of the rôle of being the servant of the neighbours amongst whom he lives; anxious, willing and ready to help them in whatever way he can; I think you will see a revolution in the agriculture of the small holdings of Ireland. It is for that I am pleading.

The 100, 200 or 1,000 acre man will be able to bespeak what he himself requires, he knows his way around. What I am anxious to do is erect a bulwark against the detestable doctrine of certain elements in this country promulgated at the present time, that the small holding is out of date, that they all ought to be amalgamated and managers established and that those who presume to be the owners of land should return to the destiny God meant for them—peasants. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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