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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1952

Vol. 133 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).

When the House adjourned last night, I was urging the development of advisory services which would be based on the parish rather than on the county. In the parish of Bansha, which was one of the three parishes where the scheme was actually initiated, there is evidence already to show that the parochial organisation of advisory services yields results, because in that parish, in the short period of 18 months or two years at the request of the farmers themselves, the soil of nearly every farmer in the parish was tested. The use of fertilisers was increased to an unprecedented degree. We successfully initiated the operation of a scheme for the elimination of uneconomic cows from the dairy herds. We succeeded in persuading the farmers to make the grass ensilage the better to feed their cows in winter with a corresponding improvement in the milk yield of the dairy herds of the parish. We intensified the rehabilitation of land. All that was achieved with the enthusiastic co-operation of the farmers themselves. Perhaps, one of the most dramatic achievements of our work in Bansha reproduced what has already been done in the Loophead Peninsula, the reduction of calf mortality.

I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that in the parish of Bansha, where hundreds of calves had died every winter in the past, in the winter of 1950-51 the mortality of calves had been reduced to about 12 head. I believe that that can become one of the most important economic factors in our live-stock industry, as a result of a nation-wide campaign against calf mortality, which was initiated three years ago.

I would direct the attention of Deputies to Appendix 2 of the White Paper, circulated by the Minister for Agriculture yesterday. If they will look at the numbers of live stock, they will find under the heading "Other Cattle", four categories—cattle three years old and over, cattle two years old and under three, cattle one year old and under two, and cattle under one year. If they will look at the number of cattle under one year in the year 1947, they will find it is 850,000. If they will look at the cattle between one year and two years old in the following year, 1948, they will find it is 741,000. That is to say, that between 1947 and 1948, 109,000 calves disappeared. We do not export calves in that age group at all practically, so that those calves have disappeared through slaughter and death from disease.

If you will look at the number of cattle under one year in 1948, it is 852,000, and in 1949 it is 804,000, so that the loss has been reduced to 48,000 calves. If you will look at the number of cattle under one year in 1949 it is 957,000, and in 1950 the number of cattle between one year and two years is 911,000, which represents a loss of 46,000.

In 1950 there were 982,000 cattle under one year and in 1951 974,000 cattle between one year old and two years which shows the dramatic development that, instead of losing 100,000 calves as we did between 1947 and 1948, we lost only 8,000 between 1950 and 1951. I do not say that the average annual loss was 100,000 calves, but taking that figure as a convenient one, these cattle reared to three year olds would sell for £50 apiece one with another. If those figures were valid, this reduction in calf mortality would be worth £5,000,000 per annum to the live-stock industry of this country through no other activity than preventing the calf mortality. Divide that figure by two in order to arrive at a conservative estimate of the value of this saving in young cattle and we get a figure of at least £2,500,000 per annum accruing to the live-stock industry as a result of the elimination of disease, mainly in calves.

In Bansha I do not think the potentialities of the parish plan are by any means exhausted. I had promised the parish of Ballyduff in Waterford that the parish plan would be extended there. In fact, it never was owing to difficulties which presented themselves, but the co-operative apple-packing plant in Dungarvan is part of that undertaking because a survey of the parish of Ballyduff was made and it emerged in the course of that survey how considerable the orchard area of that particular district was.

The senior horticultural inspector of the Department wanted an opportunity to bring the horticultural section of the Department fully to bear so that we might determine what fruit might be garnered from a concentrated effort. In these circumstances, I directed him to concentrate his attention on that particular area of the south-east of Ireland with the result that we have the co-operative apple-packing plant in Dungarvan where a group of farmers formed their own co-operative.

They carry out the cultural operations through the medium of the technical staff of their co-operative which sprays many of the orchards up to eight times in the course of the year. The farmers pick the apples, the co-operative collects them at the farm and pays them a basic price on delivery of the apples at the packing station in Dungarvan. The apples are packed and graded there and stored in gas storage chambers and, when the marketing season in the spring comes, they are repacked and regarded and the farmer gets his second payment corresponding with the quality of his apples as they come out of the gas storage. It is not an exaggeration to say that the bulk of the orchard owners in that area have this year received twice as much for their apples as they ever received before and there is every reason for believing that the payment for their apples hereafter will be even better.

All that leads me more and more to the conclusion, without going into the details of the parishes of Tydavnet in Monaghan and Ardee in Louth, that if you can mobilise from existing county instructors and future graduates approximately 300 agricultural advisers and allocate one to every three parishes and rejuvenate the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society so that it would effectively organise co-operation amongst the farmers, not only for the purpose of manufacturing butter, but for the purpose of marketing apples, marketing onions, marketing fowl, marketing eggs, marketing pigs and the hundred and one things which the small farmer has to do, no one of which could not be better done through co-operation, you can completely revolutionise the whole life of the small farmers of Ireland into the most highly efficient and economical producers that can conceivably have the custody of the land of Ireland.

We had planned to sustain the parish plan as adumbrated by me now by the establishment of a new institute of agricultural and veterinary science which would constitute an approved college of the National University and of Dublin University. The buildings and equipment for that were to be supplied by an appropriation from the Marshall Aid Grant Counterpart Fund and that scheme was, I believe, approved in principle by the Marshall Aid Administration. I had in fact invited and secured the gracious acceptance of a distinguished scientist to be first president of that institute and it was in the process of organisation when I left office. I do not want to pretend that the major difficulties had been overcome or that I left my successor a cut-and-dried scheme. I certainly did not and it would be an arduous job to carry to completion the plans we had in mind. I trust he intends to carry them to completion and to ensure that the existing research institutions under his control and the faculties of University College, Dublin, and University College, Cork, will all be brought together with the veterinary college in an institute that will reflect credit on the country and provide a steady supply of veterinary surgeons and agricultural advisers sufficient to man the parish plan on the lines outlined by me now some time in the early future.

Does that plan envisage taking over the Dairy Science Institute in Cork?

The Dairy Science Institute, the faculty of agriculture in University College, Dublin, the research institutes at Abbotstown and Johnstown, and possibly some other research work directed by the Department, all to be amalgamated in one institute. They would have a central campus.

Mr. J. Lynch

Not necessarily in Dublin.

Probably associated with University College, Dublin and T.C.D. but that would not mean that all the work would be carried out in Dublin, just as in Belltsville, outside Washington, which is the centre for the Federal Department of Agriculture of the U.S.A., the centre is at Belltsville and they have several stations all over the United States. The subject-matter of research is usually located in the area in which the research relates to the type of agriculture normal to that area.

There are only two details to which I wish to refer now and I shall leave the rest of these matters to other Deputies to discuss. I suppose we all have a certain yearning for vindication. I want to direct the attention of the Dáil to Volume 130, No. 9, of the Official Report of the 3rd April, 1952, column 1365:

"Mr. T. O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Agriculture if he would give an indication as to what the prospects are as to the disposal of the 1952 flax crop."

The Minister replied to that question and then Deputy M.P. Murphy asked the following supplementary question:

"Seeing that many farmers are already preparing to grow flax, is the Minister prepared to take steps to see that the present price of flax will be subsidised?

Mr. Walsh: There is not a market for flax, first of all.

Mr. Dillon: May I ask the Minister this? Does he not tremble in his shoes to say that, seeing that he is sitting beside Deputy Patrick Smith, who threatened me with assassination for saying the same thing?

Mr. Smith: For insulting our customers."

Deputy Murphy then asked a further supplementary question, to which the Minister replied:

"There is no question of subsidisation of flax. The representatives of the flax growers made their own arrangements."

He further said that he had already pointed out that he was not in negotiation with anybody in connection with the price of flax. "The representatives of the growers were." Then the Minister added:—

"My information is that there is a market this year for about half the acreage grown last year."

I regret that my distinguished colleagues, Deputy Mrs. Rice and Deputy Dr. Maguire, are not here present. I foresaw two years ago that the Belfast flax spinners intended to try that trick on our people, that, as soon as their market for linen cloth began to dwindle, they would take 100 per cent. of the flax grown in the Six Counties and simply tell our growers to do what they liked with that which they had been enticed into growing. I told our people not to depend on one buyer and, unless these buyers were prepared to give a firm contract in advance, to get out of flax.

Deputy Smith, my predecessor, representing Cavan; Deputy Mrs. Rice and Deputy Dr. Maguire, my colleagues in Monaghan, had fits. They addressed public meetings. They wept over my lack of courtesy to the nice, kind Belfast flax spinners. If I had only stroked them and told them how I loved them, they would have bought all the flax from the flax growers; it was bad Deputy Dillon who upset the little darlings! My successor is a man of grace and charm, but he does not seem to have been able to put the "comether" on them either. The difference is that when I was Minister for Agriculture I told the flax growers: "Do not grow flax." But when I left office the poor people were told to get conacre, to grow flax, and now there is nobody to buy it. They have to go, hat in hand, to as tough a gang of tulips as ever I dealt with. I threw them out when they came to me. I told them to go and take a running jump at themselves. These are the words I used and these are the words in which I was reported in this House. Was I right?

There is not even a yap out of the people opposite now. I declare to goodness they nearly lifted the roof of this House two years ago in virtuous indignation. Goodness knows, I often wonder how the vascular system of their countenances has been able to carry the blushes that they have to endure from time to time. What is the use of worrying? If any Deputy wants a good hearty laugh, let him get Volume 114 and read Deputy Smith on the virtues of the Belfast flax spinners, in columns 1279-1283, with an obbligato, if you please, from Deputy Michael Moran of Castlebar, God save the mark. I would advise you not to read it unless you have got strong stomachs because it would make a strong man sick.

Would it be rather indelicate if I inquired, if it is a matter of any interest to the Minister for Agriculture, why the barley growers, who had a contract with Guinness's which would have secured for them a price of 102/-per barrel for barley this year, went into conference with Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son & Company, and came out with the announcement that they had accepted 75/- per barrel? I have been a long time in public life, but that is the daftest transaction I ever heard of. I think the oddest feature about it is that the Minister for Agriculture declares himself entirely disinterested. He says in effect: "It is none of my business; I have nothing to do with it." Surely, if any group of lunatics, professing to represent the farmers of this country, go into the principal barley buyers of Ireland, tear up a contract under which the farmers were to have been paid 102/- per barrel for their barley, and accept a new contract under which they will get only 75/- per barrel, you would imagine the Minister would send for some of them and ask: "Why did you do that?"

How can the Minister for Agriculture say to us that this is a matter in which he did not interest himself and does not intend to interest himself? I want to say quite deliberately that I have never heard an explanation of that transaction. I do not understand it, and I have never found anyone who could tell me why it was done or how it was done. I am going to suggest to Dáil Éireann now that the Minister is failing in his duty if he does not investigate that transaction and find out why it was undertaken.

The last thing that I want to tell the Minister is something which I think he ought to look into. We have had annually a considerable difficulty in securing sufficient supplies of nitrogenous fertilisers. I was recently at a meeting of industrial chemists in Aberdeen, and there I was rebuking certain prominent figures in the industrial chemistry industry in England for their failure to make available to Ireland supplies of phosphates, especially in view of the quantities of agricultural produce which are being exported from this country to Great Britain. As I was talking, a gentleman whose name I will furnish to the Minister, turned round and said to me: "What are you talking about? Why would you not take the 27,000 tons of sulphate of ammonia which were offered to you at £10 below the current price on ship?" I said: "You never offered them to me.""Oh yes," he said, "I did" and then he named the person to whom he offered them, and said that person had refused them. Now I will give to the Minister the name of the person who gave me that information and the name of the person to whom he said he offered them. Will the Minister inquire why the offer was refused? I have put the matter to the Minister in this way because my informant gave me the information in the presence of two other witnesses whose names I will furnish to the Minister. The standing of my informant was such as to put it beyond doubt that the information he was giving to me was true.

If an investigation of that matter expedites a decision on the Minister's part to take active steps himself to ensure that there will be adequate supplies of fertilisers wherever we want them, whether the ring wants the supplies in or not, then a useful purpose will have been served by my sojourn in Aberdeen.

I have moved to refer back this Estimate and to tell you the honest truth I am damned if I know why I did. I think the only ground is that the Minister appears to me to be a great deal more somnolent than he ought to be. I think he has begun to forget that he is the Minister who counts and is allowing himself to be kicked about by Ministers who do not count or ought not to count. I do not know if the House read yesterday the comment of the United States team which came over here to survey industry in Ireland and its export potential. The verdict was that the industries in Ireland are so highly protected that they have no incentive to reach a standard of efficiency which would give them a hope in hell of selling on any export market in the world.

The exports of this country in the last six months are a record, and it is the small farmers of Ireland who produced them all and sold them in that market which none of the highly-protected tariffed industries, whose owners float around this city in limousines, have ever wished to compete in. The Minister for Agriculture is the Minister for those who produced those exports. Not one single one of the tariffed industries or their limousined proprietors would survive a fortnight if they had not the right to batten under the protection of tariffs and quotas on the hard-won earnings of the small farmers of Ireland. There is no economic activity in this country which is not ultimately dependent on the interest which the Minister represents in this House. The whole standard of living of all our people ultimately depends on the success or failure of the people for whom the Minister speaks.

The fault that I find with the Minister, mainly, is that he does not make that felt and that all those who are living on the agricultural industry —not in it, but on it—assert a claim to precedence, and have the impudence to claim that their interests shall prevail over those of the agricultural industry when they come in contact with them. My fault with the Minister for Agriculture is that his voice does not carry sufficient weight. My fault with him is that he is allowing others to push him about. My fault with him is that, when the drivelling Minister for External Affairs comes waddling into a discussion on the Department of Agriculture, the Minister for Agriculture does not sweep him up and throw him into the ash-pan where he belongs. If the Minister for Agriculture assumes the position that belongs to him by right, as the most important Minister in the Government of Ireland, next to the Taoiseach, I am damned if I can find very much fault with the opening statement which he made in introducing the Estimate. I adhere to my view, however, which the Minister frankly confesses is an honest difference of opinion between him and me as to how best the advisory services can be organised in the country. I rather believe that the Minister is differing with me in no small measure, because he thinks it is necessary to find something on which to differ with me, but in his heart I believe he agrees with me that the organisation of the advisory services on the basis of the parish would work much better than an attempt to organise them on the basis of a whole county, where there is no nexus of social integration on which to found effective advisory services which I have no doubt both he and I sincerely want.

Wake up! That is my principal admonition to the Minister for Agriculture. Wake up and throw your weight about, because if you do not, others will. There is no use in being too idealistic in the world of politics. Others will not. There is no need to be too tough, but there is always need to let our neighbours know that, if we have to be tough, we can be. It is true, and we might as well face it, that there are two outlooks in this country—the city outlook and the country outlook. I am often astonished at the utter inability of the city outlook to understand the problems of rural Ireland.

I am often amazed at the inability of the city outlook to realise how far they are dependent on rural Ireland for their very existence. I was often staggered by the arrogant impudence of those who were no more than parasites on the agricultural community of this country in their assertions that the so-called industrial arm was what mattered when, to any unprejudiced observer, they were nothing but blood-sucking parasites on the only industry in this country able to earn its living, in competition with the world. We may have to be prepared to carry these parasites so long as we can afford it. The duty of the Minister for Agriculture is to make it perfectly clear that the whole crazy structure of the tariff industries is being built up on the foundation of the agricultural industry. Not a single one of the tariff industries would last a month if they had not the agricultural industry there to earn the money to keep them in existence. It is time the Minister for Agriculture said to his more romantic colleagues: "You can build too much on this foundation." If you keep on piling up a growing burden of excess costs on the agricultural industry that has to sell its entire surplus output in the competitive markets of the world where they get no protection, the whole underlying foundation of their crazy structure will collapse and fall into dust and ashes but the tragedy is that underneath it will be buried the sole and the ultimate source of all the wealth of our people. The Minister for Agriculture represents that source. It is his duty to protect it. It is because I feel that he has failed in that duty and that he has not appreciated the significance of the position to which he has attained—it is because I feel that he is not fighting as he ought to fight in the defence of the interests of what, in the last analysis, is the only section of our community that matters economically—that I think the motion to refer this Estimate back is justified.

Teastaíonn uaim freagra a thabhairt don iar-Aire Talmhaíochta ar chuid dá chuid cainte a rinne sé aréir.

Tá mé ag éisteacht leat. Ar aghaidh leat.

Tá mé cinnte nach mbeidh an Teachta róshasta leis féin nuair a chloisfidh sé an freagra atáagan ar a chuid cainte. B'aisteach liom an t-iar-Aire a chlos ag caitheamh masla agus dí-onóir agus neamh-chomhtheastachta im leith de bharr mo thuairimí i dtaobh míntíriú na talún.

Anuraidh, nuair a bhí an Meastacháin dhá thionlacan sa Teach seo ag Rúnaí Párlaiminte an Rialtais agus Oifig na gCeantar gCúng agus na Gaeltachta thug an Teachta Diolún dubhshlán fúm an scéim seo d'athrú. Is cosúil nach bhfuil fhios aige conas mar atá an scéal thíos ansin ar chor ar bith. Sa gcéad dul síos, dúirt an Teachta Diolún aréir go raibh cuid den scéim seo ar siúl i gCasla, i gConamara. Tá dul amú mór sa méid sin. Ní haon ionadh domsa nach bhfuil eolas aige ar na háiteacha a bhfuil an scéim sin ar bun iontu.

Tá sé ag dul ar aghaidh i nDoire Salach.

Ba mhaith liom a chur ina luí ar an Teachta Diolún nach raibh aon chuid den scéim riamh ar siúl i gCasla. Cibé ar bith, ní dóigh liom go dtagann sé ró mhaith ón iar-Aire Talmhaíochta a chaith neamh-chomhtheastachta im leith faoi rud ar bith nuair nach féidir linn dearmad a dhéanamh ar an masla a chaith sé féin ar scéim na dtrátaí. Dúirt sé gur rud iasachtach agus "exotic" é agus nach raibh rud ar bith ann ach iarracht ar dalladh mullóg a chur ar na daoine i gConamara faoi'n scéim sin a bunadh ann. Cad a thárla nuair a tháining an Teachta Diolún in Oifig mar Aire Talmhaíochta agus cad a rinne sé faoi'n scéim sin a bhí ina "dirty fraud" agus a bhí "exotic," dar leis, nuair a bhí sé ina Theachta Dála roimhe sin? Cad a rinne sé leis an scéim sin nuair a bhí sé ina Aire Talmhaíochta? Dúirt sé go mbeadh gach cabhair le haghaidh na scéime sin le fáil sa Roinn Talmhaíochta ag fásóirí na dtrátaí i gConamara. Nach bhfuil dífiríochta i bhfad níos mó idir briathar agus gníomh an Teachta Diolún san rud sin ná mar a bhí im' thaobh-se maidir le scéim míntíriú na talún.

Tá sé sin beagáinín lag.

Deireann an Teachta Diolún i gconaí go labhrann sé amach gan scáth gan eagla. Is maith leis é féin a cheapadh mar dhuine gan faitíos a dhéanann gaisce. Cad a rinne sé ansin leis an scéim sin? Do bheadh sé i bhfad níos macánta agus cneasta dhó deire lom-díreach a chur leis an scéim nuair a bhí an chumhacht aige agus é ina Aire Talmhaíochta tar éis an méid cainte a rinne sé faoi sar ar cuireadh in Oifig é—bíodh is go mbeadh muinntir Chonamara ina choinne faoi. Do bheadh sé i bhfad níos cneasta nárud a rinne sé. Rinne sé iarracht ar an margadh in Éirinn le haghaidh na dtrátaí a bháthadh le Dutch Tomatoes. Níor cuireadh a cháil in áirde dá bharr sin.

Cad a rinne an tAire eile mar gheall ar an scéim?

Tá scéim cosanta ar siúl ag an Aire anois. Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh praghas réasúnta, geilleagrach le fáil ag na daoine a bhfuil tithe gloine acu anois. Beidh pebrí méad trátaí a bheas ag teastáil ag muinntir na hÉireann ón am seo go dtí deire an t-séasúir dhá riaradh faoi cheadúnas agus ní bheidh cead ag gach fásóir trátaí san Europe a mbeidh de thrataí d'thuíollach aige a dumpáil sa tír seo ar luach beatha na mue.

Perhaps I should——

Téigh ar aghaidh i nGaelige.

I want to congratulate the ex-Minister for Agriculture on his ability to understand me.

There is no wonder. You speak Irish very well.

That is very nice and complimentary at 11.20 in the morning. I have to accept the compliment, I am afraid, in the spirit of his remarks last night. I am very sorry to have to say that.

You were talking about the tomatoes there. What has this Minister done about them?

The Minister has ensured by the regulation he has made that there would be no drowning of the market by the surplus of unsaleable and inferior tomatoes of every country in Europe that grows them.

When were the regulations made?

Does the ex-Minister not know the regulations that were in force last year? Does he not know that for the first time in four years the tomato growers got an economic price last year? Does he not know that the tomatoes were sold during his period at the price of pig feeding?

When were regulations made?

God forgive you.

Mr. Walsh

I made the regulation.

An Order was made and it was published in Iris Oifigiúil on May 13th.

The Parliamentary Secretary ought to be able to make his speech without interruption.

He will not be able to make his speech if he utters untruths.

The Parliatary Secretary must be allowed to speak.

(Interruptions.)

Perhaps if Deputy Blowick would cease his tintinnabulation I might be able to explain.

So long as you speak the truth.

Whether I speak the truth or not, I demand from Deputy Blowick the right to speak. If I give him facts and say what he does not like, I will ask the Ceann Comhairle to insist on my rights.

Hear, hear!

I am averse to letting an untruth pass by.

The Parliamentary Secretary is entitled to speak without interruption as Deputy Blowick is when he stands up to speak. Every Deputy is entitled to speak without interruption, and that right must be conceded to the Parliamentary Secretary.

Of course, all this arises from the allegation that there is neither truth, wisdom, honesty nor integrity on this side of the House, and in this connection let me refer to the manner in which Deputy Dillon impugned my honour here last night. I might as well repeat the remarks or the substance of them in relation to my views on this rock scheme. Incidentally, a Cheann Comhairle, I notice there is no reference in the data supplied to us to the "rock scheme" as it was known when Deputy Dillon was the Minister.

There is.

No. It is referred to as reclamation. The fact is that the "rock scheme" as initiated by Deputy Dillon is not now being carried out, and I want to point out to him that, when he challenged me here on the introduction of Deputy Lynch's Estimate for Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeanntar gCúng that there would be no change and that he defied me to bring about a change, I want to announce to him now that the change has, in fact, taken place, and that there is now no longer any drilling of bed rock which the geologists tell us is 900 ft. deep.

There never was.

There is no attempt now to make the causeway from Golan Head to Oileán an Dá Bhruinneog.

Blather.

No blather, the only rock clearance going on is clearance of rock that has soil under it.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Cheap fraud.

I ought to be ashamed of myself! I want to apply to Deputy Dillon's conception and implementation of this scheme the epithets which he threw at the sound economic tomato growing scheme—"a disgusting fraud,""a dirty political racket." How did this rock scheme come into being? How was it carried out? It was begun—and I would ask Deputies to note the date—on 1st April, 1951.

That is not true. It was announced by the county committee of agriculture in Galway.

There was a by-election vacancy pending at the time and there was more reason for describing it as a fraudulent political racket because of that fact than there was for anything Deputy Dillon said about the tomato scheme.

We stopped the drilling of the 900 ft. thick Connemara granite.

Does the Minister stand over that?

Mr. Walsh

Certainly.

I saw the drilling going on myself.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

There was reclamation there before this scheme ever came up and I would like to direct the Minister's attention to the fact that there has been great neglect in West Connemara of the drainage and reclamation schemes which are carried out by the people themselves by their own family labour. They complain to me frequently that there is such concentration on administration of the machine scheme that people who are prepared to do their own on the grant available cannot get their inspection carried out. Deputy Dillon said that I was such a dishonourable man and so mercenary that I would crawl in on all fours, and I would see this fraud which he initiated going on, and that nevertheless, I would crawl out on all fours, accept the scheme, and draw my stipend as a Parliamentary Secretary which, incidentally, he increased for the purpose of weighting his argument, to £1,800. Now let me use that argument against him. I can therefore give him a proportionate increase on his salary when he was Minister. I can fix it at £2,500.

I wish it were.

Or twice as much.

Having denounced this other scheme instituted by Deputy Dillon's own predecessor as Minister as a disgusting fraud, tomfoolery, and an attempt to put the dalladh mullóg on the people of Connemara, he came along nevertheless and placed all the services of his Department, according to his own statements, at the disposal of the tomato growers, swallowed his own words, continued in office for three and a quarter years, and continued to draw his £2,500 and his pension after it.

If I went in on all-fours and came out on all-fours—I have only been a year in office yet—and swallowed the scheme, I suggest that Deputy Dillon is much nearer the ground than all-fours. In fact his record in relation to-tomatoes, if he wants the Deputies on his side of the House to believe I was a crawler on all-fours, renders him a gastropod. For three years he drew his salary and for those three years he put the services of the Department at the disposal of the growers and he tried by the roundabout and dishonest method of swamping this market with Dutch tomatoes to kill the scheme he had not the courage to kill by the exercise of his ministerial functions. If there is anyone dishonoured, if there is anyone crawling, not on all-fours but on his——

Mr. Walsh

Go on. Use it. Say "belly".

—— on his belly, it has not been I. If Deputy Blowick would only control his tintinnabulation——

The other word is more homely on your lips.

In this case the emphasis is on the "tin" of course.

Stick to the plainer language. It suits you better.

It suits me better?

Perhaps it is the only language the poor fellow can speak in.

Let us get on with the Estimate and the motion to refer back.

We have changed the scheme. There is no longer the codology of drilling the granite bedrock and trying to make a causeway to Galway Bay.

Blatherskite!

There are no more jokes and people are no longer telling us to take our last look at the Twelve Pins because, when Deputy Dillon had finished with them, they would not be there any longer.

Blatherskite.

We changed the scheme and it has now been reduced to some semblance of reasonableness. It is only rocks that have something under them in the way of soil that are now being tackled. There is a widespread request and demand in these areas for a concentration on the work of fertilising the land and the people have been going ahead with the fencing of it. The people will tell you that that is the most useful expenditure that can be undertaken in relation to land reclamation in these areas. In none of these schemes, even as they are now being carried on, will one produce arable land. The people who are working the schemes, the people for whom they are being worked and everybody resident in the areas admit one cannot make tillage land out of it.

That is a great discovery.

Deputy Dillon's information is all the fuller because of my contribution now. The Minister will therefore get a better output of work at a lesser cost, and achieve the only benefit that can be achieved by a scheme of this sort if he concentrates on fertilising the land. Where the people are prepared by their family labour to carry out these schemes inspections should be expedited. This work was very satisfactorily done when the assistant agricultural overseers were charged with the task.

They are now established parish agents.

I do not mind what the Deputy calls them. Provided one takes the Fianna Fáil label off the Deputy is satisfied. The scheme must not be called a reclamation scheme. It must be called the land rehabilitation project.

Call it by its proper name. Call it the Dillon scheme.

That is what they call the scheme in Roundstone.

If the Deputy spent a little less time in Rathmines and more in his constituency it would be better.

Is fíor duit.

Let me again request Deputy Blowick to try to control his tintinnabulation.

I must ask Deputies to permit the Parliamentary Secretary to make his speech without interruption. There has been a continuous barrage of interruptions since he started. The Parliamentary Secretary does not lose his right to speak here without interruption when he becomes Parliamentary Secretary.

The trouble is that because I do not interrupt these Deputies think I have not got the right to speak at all. I am afraid an appeal of that sort will fall on deaf ears.

It is my function to keep order and I shall endeavour to discharge that function.

The Chair will pardon me making that observation but I am speaking from my experience of Deputy Blowick. I ask the Minister to pay more attention to the part of the scheme which is carried out by means of family labour. In that case the degree of detailed inspection is much smaller than it is where machinery has to be used and where rock has to be dealt with, even though it is only the rock that one meets with in drainage operations. I refer in particular to Connemara and other areas like Connemara where the spadework can be done and where there is soil of some sort, whether it be bog or clay, on which some progress can be made with hand labour. If the inspections are carried out and the O.K. given to the people to go ahead with the work many more schemes can be undertaken simultaneously. These schemes provide a very suitable type of employment for the family when it is not engaged on other farming duties. We have experience of how well these schemes have worked in the past. These schemes should not be held up merely because rock is encountered in the making of drains. There should be some reorganisation of the machinery used so that when all the rock encountered in drainage operations has been laid bare the driller can then come along and do a number of these schemes, as we say in Connemara, out of face. Let the blasting be done and the people themselves will be willing to clear up the rock debris left.

I want to represent to the Minister the views of the people mostly concerned, the small holders themselves. They are anxious to get on with reclamation work, and I suggest that the Minister should do either of two things: send in some other officers of his Department, or, better still—I think it could be done this way—give back again some authority to the assistant agricultural overseers already in the place to make these inspections in the course of their other duties and give the O.K. to these people to start, or take away some of the staff who are now concentrating all their attention on the machine end of the job. If the Minister does what I suggest, he will find that he will get a much larger output of reclaimed land, and there is a great deal of this soft land in which work can be speeded up. That is the advantage it has over dealing with places which are mainly bedrock with a couple of inches of "scraw" over it.

You are never going to get any tillage land in these places, and the best service we could render would be to increase the amount of tillage land, so that the people can have more potatoes, more oats, more milk and more of the other things which go to increase the standard of living in the household. A very large amount of good work was done in these areas under the two previous schemes, which were run entirely on the grant basis. It was £5 originally, and the equivalent of £5 now would be a much larger sum, and the sum which has been provided under the Land Reclamation Act, 1948, is, on the whole, I think, looked upon as satisfactory. I have not heard any complaints about it.

I want to say, and I think I should say it, in view of the refutations I have had to make in my opening remarks, that this Party places land reclamation in these areas in a very high place on the priority list of services to the Gaeltacht and poorer areas, and the fact that we denounce in no uncertain terms an attempt at the impossible does not derogate or detract from our interest in and support of genuine land reclamation in these areas. There is no better service could be put on foot for these people, but, as public representatives, we are certainly entitled, and we have a duty, to see that this money is spent to the best possible advantage for the applicants and the taxpayer who provides it.

I have had to stand some very severe barrages of criticism over the things I have denounced in my opening remarks. While Deputy Dillon could get away with it, as apparently he gets away with the most fantastic things, we are expected, as I was told, to show some better sense of proportion in relation to this type of service.

We were expected to do sooner what in fact we have now done, but I pointed out to these critics that, unlike Deputy Dillon, we did not set out, when we came in, to tear down labels. If a thing was good, we accepted it, no matter what label was on it, and this ramp of tearing F.F. off every scheme that Deputy Dillon found in the Department was not followed by us and in fact we gave this thing a fair try out. I am not saying that I was prepared to give it the try out the Minister gave it, but he certainly gave it a sufficient trial under his administration as Minister. He found it wanting, and, having found it wanting on a fair test, he changed it, and I think it is capable of still further adaptation and improvement. I hope he will carry out these changes and adaptations without reference to any political consideration.

B'fhéidir go mdeacha mé ró fhada nuair a thosnaí mé ag caint i dtosach, ach tá sé an-deacair suí síos anseo agus bheith ag éisteacht le duine a bhfuil focla ar a chomhairle aige ag caitheamh masla, droc-mheas, eas-onóir agus neachomhsheastacta, le Teachta nár chuir isteach, beag ná mór, air, go mór mhór nuair ba é scéal féin a bhí á insint aige. Sin é an rud a chuireann déistean ar dhuine sa Teach seo agus an rud a chuireann deisteán ormsa. Níl mise ag tógáil tada ón Teachta O Diolún. Ar ndoigh, is iomaí uair a caithtear an focal sin, ónóir, timpeall an Tí seo.

Ní hé an bhrí ná an chiall cheadna atá ag an bhfocal sin dar le daoine taobh amuigh, ar aon chaoi, agus atá aige nuair a caithtear an focal sin agus a mhalairt "easonóir" idir Teachtaí agus páirtithe anseo, ach bhí uair ann nuair a cuireadh suas ag an Teachta sin é agus nuair a b'fhéidir brí agus ciall cheart a bhaint as agus fríothadh easnamhach é. Chlis sé. Bhí sé ag iarraidh an tír bheag seo a tharraingt isteach sa geogadh. Bhí sé ag déanamh rí-rá agus rúille-búille de bhrigh go raibh síocháin againn anseo agus nach raibh muid sa gcogadh. An Teachta O Lochlainn as Condae an Chláir, chaith sé leis: "Is fear singil thusa, fear atá i n-aois saighdiúra fós agus má cheapann tú rud cad chuige nach spáineann tú é? Tuige nach dtugann tú an déa-shompla?" Ach, le bheith chomh maith lena fhocal, thóg sé cúram tí air féin agus d'fhan sé sa mbaile—áit a raibh síocháin.

The Parliamentary Secretary who has just concluded is, I am glad to notice, beginning to take a different view of what the duty and responsibility of a Deputy or a Government are, and if Deputy Dillon and the inter-Party Government have succeeded in bringing him to a sense of his duty they have done a good day's work. No matter how the Parliamentary Secretary likes it I must point out that he made statements and took a line of action while we were a Government that he now wants to back out of as gracefully as he can—that is if the Parliamentary Secretary can do anything gracefully. He condemned the land rehabilitation scheme, lock, stock and barrel. He comes in here now and tries to justify himself by representing to the House that some kind of queer scheme was going on in Connemara. The land rehabilitation scheme was going on in Connemara in the same way as in any other part of the country and did good work there. I am glad to notice that under the present Minister for Agriculture it is still going ahead.

Let me give my opinion of the land rehabilitation scheme. It has been two and a half or three years in action now and already we have some idea of what good it is doing and what it will achieve. I want to put on the records of the House that my opinion of the land rehabilitation scheme initiated completely by Deputy James Dillon as Minister for Agriculture is the finest and most revolutionary scheme ever introduced by any Minister for Agriculture in Western Europe. The one fear I had when we were moving up to this Estimate was that the present Government, simply because the scheme was initiated by Deputy Dillon, might tamper with it, might take it into their heads to abolish it or alter it to such an extent as would leave it useless, and I was very proud, happy and contented to hear the Minsister for Agriculture saying that he took it over look, stock and barrel just as it was handed to him in working order by his predecessor, Deputy Dillon, and that he was continuing it. There could be no better scheme for the country because of its peculiar agricultural problems. No scheme introduced in our lifetime was as necessary or could do as much good as that scheme will do.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned rock drilling. He said that we were drilling the granite bedrock in Connemara. No such drilling of bedrock took place. I have travelled through Connemara, although it is not my constituency, and I claim to know a fair amount of what is going on. There was drilling of rocks which were too huge to move by hand. There was drilling and blasting of rocks on the surface which were impeding land reclamation just as in the arable areas. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary does not suggest that land reclamation could go on without removing the surface rock—that is, where there is sufficient soil to justify the operation of the scheme.

The Parliamentary Secretary has made a very interesting discovery: that there are parts of Connemara that no amount of reclamation will make arable. That is on a par with the time when Deputy Burke, during the inter-Party Government régime, made the astonishing discovery that all rivers flow to the sea in the long run. It is of the same magnitude. It shows the intense intellectual pressure under which the brain of the Parliamentary Secretary over there is working. Anybody connected with land knows quite well that there are vast areas of Connemara where, unless we carted in soil and sheeted the land over with soil from some other part of the country, there is no means of making the land arable. It now transpires that the Parliamentary Secretary or his colleagues thought that when the land rehabilitation scheme was in force we could grow tomatoes up the sides of mountains as barren of soil as a heap of concrete.

The Parliamentary Secretary is beginning to realise now that it is not wise to make daft statements when in opposition, even though they may have a certain vote-catching value at the time. Bit by bit, we are whittling down the members of the Dáil who sit on the other side to a little sense of decency and responsibility. Even when the Parliamentary Secretary was in opposition, he should have got his facts and figures, and studied the problem before he had the temerity to speak on it in this House and advance opinions which, in my view, were advanced by him for no other reason than their mud-slinging value and their vote-catching value. It takes a long time, but, nevertheless, we are bringing them down to common sense, and that is one good object. If the inter-Party Government did nothing else, that is a proud achievement.

If the Parliamentary Secretary made wild, extravagant, foolish, daft statements while he was in opposition and has a different view now that he has got inside and sees the truth like the Minister sitting beside him who made statements to which I will refer later, both gentlemen should have the courage and decency to come out now and admit it. After all, they might copy the Taoiseach. He has the courage to come out and admit he is wrong. When we chide him about something which he said in his early years in office or before he took office, he has told us a dozen times from the seat the Minister is sitting in now that he thought he was right but found afterwards that he was wrong. Evidently the Parliamentary Secretary has not reached the stage of having the courage and the manliness to come out and admit that statements he made were wrong. I am not ashamed to do that. When I was first elected here I had not the knowledge I now have and I thought that certain things could, and should be, done in a certain way. It was not until I had acquired more information that I found that if some of my first ideas had been put into operation they would, instead of having a good effect, have been disastrous. The Parliamentary Secretary was in this House long before I came into it. He has been 17 or 18 years a member. Between 1948 and 1951 he made statements about which he now feels very sore and hot under the collar. There is nothing wrong about that provided he did not make them with a bad intention.

The Minister's speech last night opening the debate was very short but it was complete vindication of inter-Party agricultural policy. As a matter of fact, he crossed swords with his predecessor only on one small matter: whether agricultural advisers down the country should be under the control of county committees of agriculture or under the direct control of the Department in Dublin. That is the only thing he crossed swords about. Every other single item—pigs, the dead meat trade, poultry, fertilisers, land and buildings, ground limestone—dealt with by Deputy Dillon, as Minister, has been taken up by the present Minister. I am very glad and proud there has been no radical change in policy, that the Minister has taken up where Deputy Dillon left off, but I want to warn him that a sleeping attitude will not do.

Deputy Dillon put in tremendous work during a period of three and a half years, but had not encompassed fully all the problems confronting agriculture. We will not accept from the Minister the attitude that everything can be left as Deputy Dillon left it, that all the ills will have been cured by Deputy Dillon's policy running its full course. Fresh problems are arising from time to time, and the inter-Party policy does not cover the whole field. Deputy Dillon chided the Minister on the fact that he was going to sleep. I hope the Minister will not continue like that. We have to be thankful that he did not upset the policy Deputy Dillon handed over this time last year. I warn him against going to sleep, pulling a blanket over his head, saying that everything is all right with agriculture. There are always fresh problems. The Minister, being the most important Minister in the Government, and holding the most important portfolio, cannot afford to go to sleep or even to sit back complacently and say that Deputy Dillon's policy was good and was all right, and that he will let it run. We will not stand for that, and if the Minister thinks he is to have an easy time, reaping the reward of Deputy Dillon's brainwork and energy, he will find out that that will not do.

Unlike the case of many other countries, agriculture is our principal industry. There was a long time from 1932 to 1943 or 1944 when the policy of the Party now in power was that agriculture did not matter. It seemed to be a kind of blister, a big and costly Department, and they did not see why it should be kept going at all. It came almost to the point that the farmers— and the small farmers in particular, the backbone of the country—were looked upon as parasites, and the sooner they were eliminated the better. Coupled in that category we had the Board of Works Special Employment Schemes Office, whose works largely dealt with the problems of farmers, and we had the Irish Land Commission, another Government Department which deals exclusively with the problems of farmers, especially small farmers. It is only inside the last few years that Fianna Fáil has been awakening to the fact that while industrialisation is to be admired and aimed at under full pressure, it was bad policy to neglect our principal industry. Not only was it neglected, but it was trampled on. Not only were the farmers trampled on, but they were cheated. Let us take one example.

A sum is appropriated each year, mar dheadh as a subsidy for fertilisers. It was £300,000 in one year but only £11,000 was spent; it was £200,000 another year and the farmers thought all this money being appropriated would be spent as a subsidy on fertilisers, yet little or none of it was spent. In their last year in office, 1947, £190,000 was appropriated but only £19,000 was spent—£1 out of every £10. That is deliberate cheating, using this Book of Estimates to cheat the farmers. I am glad to see a complete change of front. It is about time it occurred.

As regards subsidies on fertilisers, the Minister was very vocal here, as Deputy Tom Walsh, on the 22nd June, 1950, when he said:

"This problem is one which the Minister should have made provision against. It would be far better, and in my opinion would provide far greater security for the country, if the Minister instead of spending £40,000,000 on land reclamation were to subsidise markets in order to ensure production at home."

Is the Minister still of that opinion? I am sure that on the 22nd June, 1950, when he made that statement he had not the wildest dream that he would be Minister for Agriculture some day. He happens to be Minister to-day and I ask him to live up to that statement. He made statements about the price of milk before he became Minister and he has not lived up to them.

Mr. Walsh

He has.

No. Before he took office he stated, and it was published in one paper at least, the Irish Press, that the farmers could not produce milk at 1/9.

Mr. Walsh

No.

Yes, he did.

Mr. Walsh

No.

Do you deny it?

Mr. Walsh

I do.

Does the Minister deny he made that statement?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

I read it.

Mr. Walsh

I do not care what you read.

If a misstatement appeared, why did the Minister not contradict it?

Mr. Walsh

I never made it.

If I were misquoted, I would write and ask the paper to correct the error. Why did the Minister not do that?

He did not say anything about compulsory tillage, either.

He did, he had a great deal to say about it. There again the Minister seems to have swung round completely to the view that the farmers, and particularly the small farmers, are not to be regarded as a crowd of whipped slaves, as they were regarded up to 1947 and 1948. The Minister has now come round to the view that if he wants to get increased agricultural production the farmers, good and all as they may be, do not take whipping too nicely. I am glad the Minister has begun to realise that all the farmers ever ask for is a fair price for agricultural produce. They will produce all the Minister wants, all that it is humanly possible for them and physically possible for the land to produce, if the Minister arranges to give them a price which will cover three things—their own labour, the cost of production and a small reasonable margin of profit.

One of the Minister's predecessors, Deputy Smith, treated us here one night to a three-hour speech on the closing of the debate. He told us all the things he would do. It seemed to me that if Deputy Paddy Smith remained Minister for a few years, all the farmers would be landed in jails and concentration camps surrounded by barbed wire, or driven into the Atlantic or the Irish Sea and drowned.

That was the outlook of Fianna Fáil, bear in mind, towards the farming community and towards agriculture. They were regarded as nothing but a useful crowd of slaves to produce a certain amount of exportable agricultural produce each year in order to have a correct balance of trade between this and outside countries. That policy has completely changed and I am glad it has. I would again warn the Minister of the complacent attitude he appears to be adopting. If he thinks that the inter-Party policy is automatically going to cure all ills and that he can sleep on the job, he is making a mistake and we will keep reminding him about it here. Agriculture, by its very nature, has fresh and constantly recurring problems which must be dealt with and it takes a wide-awake Minister to deal with them.

The Minister made a statement here some time ago when he took office. I thought we had finished completely with the problem of New Zealand butter which we heard so much about while we were the Government. Did the Minister stop all imports of New Zealand or foreign butter? We have nothing but tales of woe about the yellow butter.

The Minister made the briefest possible reference to the whole question of milk production and butter when speaking last night. He did not tell us if New Zealand butter was still being imported. Why has he not kept it out if it was such a crime in our time to import it?

On the 9th July, 1951, the Minister, I think it was in his own constituency, said that he was very happy to have been able to implement one of the points in the 17-point Fianna Fáil programme by increasing the price of milk. He did not say that he was going to give them the 8d. or 9d. a gallon that he promised before he thought he would be Minister for Agriculture. He gave them 2d. instead of the 9d. That was one of the promises made during the election but,"owing to the state of finance on the termination of the Coalition Government, it was not possible to increase the price of milk"— poor fellow—"and at the same time not to increase the price of butter. The Government was going to ensure that the people would not have to rely on supplies of imported butter next February or March". Have you lived up to that?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

Very good. There is one powerful weapon that any Deputy has and that is the parliamentary question.

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

The Minister should fully appreciate when he makes a statement that a parliamentary question might reveal him as having made a misstatement—not a very comfortable position for a Minister, I must admit.

Mr. Walsh

No butter has been purchased in 1952.

The Minister referred to the dead meat trade. He said the dead meat trade was 36,000 tons last year; it was 18,000 tons the year before, and 10,000 tons the year before that. I am very glad and proud to see the dead meat trade established. I would ask the Minister to do as we did, that is, to give it every encouragement and to give those engaged in it every facility provided they handle it properly and correctly. There was a dead meat industry started in many places. Such an industry was started in my own town, Castlebar, which has expanded and grown out of all bounds and beyond what was anticipated when it was established. It is most useful because such a trade utilises offal and various by-products, and can give immense employment. It has not reacted in the slightest on, or done the least damage to, the trade of selling animals on the hoof. I would ask the Minister to do all he possibly can to foster and to increase the industry, and to keep pace with the demand for dead meat and cooked meat outside.

I suppose the Minister is up to date in his knowledge of what is happening in connection with poultry production. Is he aware that the bottom is falling out of that industry? I would ask him to tell us, when he is replying, what steps he proposes to take in the matter? We expected a good deal of information from the Minister. We expected the bald truth as to what was happening, whether it was good news or bad, from the point of view of his side of the House or of this side of the House. We wanted the truth.

Mr. Walsh

Did you read the White Paper?

Mr. Walsh

You will get all the information you need there.

Apart from the information in the White Paper, I know what is happening in my part of the country, and that is anything but reassuring. The Minister should not allow the poultry industry to go on the rocks that easily. There must be some solution for the problems. The Minister is in charge of the Department of Agriculture, which is the most important Department in this State.

Mr. Walsh

We have had a rather difficult job in getting it back to where it is.

Getting what back?

Mr. Walsh

The poultry industry.

You had not.

Mr. Walsh

Get the statistics and they will tell you.

Whatever about statistics, I want to warn the Minister that he should look sharp now. Wherever he got the industry back from, it was handed over by the inter-Party Government in a most flourishing condition.

Mr. Walsh

In a rotten state.

Tell that to any housewife or any small farmer down the country and they will not stop laughing for a week.

Mr. Walsh

Two shillings a dozen for eggs.

What does the Minister propose to do about the price of fertilisers? Will he or will he not subsidise fertilisers so as to give farmers, particularly small farmers, a chance to produce the maximum out of the land? The small farmer is not a capitalist. Most small farmers are living from hand to mouth. They have not capital. Short as is the time from one spring to another, the ordinary small farmer has not the necessary capital to fertilise his land to the extent that would enable him to make a much better living out of his holding, and to produce more than he is producing now. The Minister should realise that generally the small farmer buys his fertilisers in January or February, but has to wait at least 12 months and sometimes 15 or 18 months before he can cash in on what the fertilisers produce. The price this year is preventing many farmers from using the amount of fertilisers that they would use otherwise. What is the Minister's attitude towards it?

I do not want a repetition of what happened in the years 1944, 1945, 1946 and 1947, of appropriating a sum, putting down a figure at random in the Book of Estimates and saying: "There is £300,000 or £250,000, as the case may be, to subsidise fertilisers", and then spend none of it and return it all to the Department of Finance. I do not want cheating of that kind. There is no other name for it.

I want a genuine effort made. My reason for referring to this matter is to try to check the flight which is occurring at an alarming pace from the small holdings and, secondly, to try to increase agricultural production. There is unanimity on all sides of the House as to the necessity to increase agricultural production. We know that the amount of imports depends, ultimately, on the amount of exports. The farmer is our only source of exports, and we should assist him in every possible way to increase exports.

I want to refer to a survey that was taken a short time ago, the result of which was published in the March issue of the Irish Trade Journal. Did the Minister take cognisance of what that survey revealed? Does he grasp what is happening in the country, particularly in the case of small farmers along the west coast, from Cork to Donegal, and to small farmers all over the country? I am not blaming the Minister for that, because the problem has its roots dating a long time back, before the Minister or myself entered public life, but I want to draw his attention to a very serious state of affairs.

After this, the Minister cannot say that he is not aware that there is a flight from the smaller holdings in this country that would leave the clearance made by the landlords of almost 100 years ago in the shade. The Minister for Agriculture is one of the Ministers who have the solution to that largely in their hands. Was the Minister in north Mayo during the recent by-election? I would advise him during the holiday period to travel around Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry, parts of West Cork. Let him not stay on the main roads but leave them behind and go through the villages and along the byroads where he will meet farmers at work in the fields. He should ask them questions like this: "How many houses were in your village 20 or 25 years ago? From how many of these houses were children going to school 20 or 25 years ago? How many houses are occupied to-day, and how many children are going to school to-day in this village?" The Minister should not depend on the answers he gets in one area or in one county. He should spend a week or even a fortnight visiting all the counties. It is perfectly true to say that the clearances effected by the landlords 100 years ago are only in the halfpenny place compared with the flight from the small holdings to-day, particularly from small holdings in the west of Ireland. Deputies representing western areas will agree with me in this. I went to the national school with children from 11 houses in a particular townland. There were 14 houses in all in this townland but to-day only four are occupied. Are the members of the present generation who are sent as elected representatives to this Dáil going to stand idly by and watch rural depopulation grow without even asking: "What is the cause of it? Is there anything we can do to stop it?"

The Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Lands should make a survey of this particular aspect of rural life with particular emphasis on the nine counties along the western seaboard which constitute the congested areas; the problem is worst in these districts. The Minister may say: "I cannot force John So-and-so or Tom So-and-so to live on a small holding." I know the Minister cannot force him but, at least, he can entice him. In my view, the reason for the flight from the small holdings is that their problems have been neglected down through the years by their elected representatives and by successive Governments. It is impossible to make a living on small holdings at the present time due to the prices offered for agricultural produce. I admit that the Minister has no control over one very important factor. I am referring to the organised labour in the towns and cities of Britain and in the towns and cities of this country. This fact is enticing the youngsters away from the rough-and-tumble life on the land. They like the prospect of the bright lights, an eight-hour day, a half-day on Saturday and a fixed wage when employment is steady.

I will repeat again that the Minister for Agriculture, his colleague, the Minister for Lands, and any other Minister who has the emigration problem at heart should have a survey carried out. The Minister for Lands can make files available to the Minister for Agriculture from the collection branch of the Department of Lands which will show that the small farmer is rapidly being crushed out of this country. The view is held that the small farmer should go. In my opinion, people of this opinion are choosing the readiest way out of the problem. I do not subscribe to that view. I think that if a day comes when the small farmer is no more, rural Ireland will die with him. Small farmers are buying up holdings. In other words, they are relieving their own congestion, which they could not do if their neighbours had not flown from the land. Every person that changes from a life on the land to a life in the cities across the water or in the cities of this country is a definite loss to our nation. I will not dwell further on this point except to say that the flight from the land is one of the most serious problems facing the Government at the present time.

Shortly before I left office I intended having a survey carried out in conjunction with the Department of Justice—the Minister can get access to the relevant documents if he wishes— of all the holdings, particularly those in the West, where the problem is worst. There is an appalling crushing-out of the small farmer at the present time. When I refer to the small farmer, I have in mind all those who had houses and out-offices built for them and other improvements carried out by the Congested Districts Board shortly before the passing of the 1923 Act. Such holdings are now being vacated, and what about the residue—the holdings that the Land Commission have not yet reached, which are in a rundale and in an uneconomic condition?

The small farmer has been too long looked upon as some sort of handy slave who does the work but does not need to get properly paid for it. He is supposed to have no rights; he is expected to produce as much as possible from the land without getting anything in return; and he has probably to do his best to rear a family in the meantime. This has resulted in the appalling flight from the small farms. I want to impress on the Minister again that he should confer with the Minister for Lands and certain other Ministers in the Government with a view to having a survey carried out to find out exactly to what extent this crushing-out of the small farmer is going on in the countryside, to what extent it is likely to occur in the next few years and what steps can be taken to rectify the position. In fairness to the Minister and to the present Government, I feel I should say that the flight from the land will not be stopped overnight by waving a magic wand. It will take five or perhaps ten years before any schemes brought forward to stop it will have borne fruit. However, if such schemes have borne fruit in ten years' time, the Government will have done a good day's work.

I will give this little illustration of the state of affairs in a half-parish with which I am acquainted. At one time there were five national schools in this area—a Gaeltacht area—but two of them have closed down during the last 12 months; in the period between the months of May and October there was one marriage in this half-parish and two baptisms in the Catholic Church.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture talked about the land rehabilitation as if it were going to cure all ills. I say that a great deal of good would also be done by the development of forestry in congested areas. I said quite a lot on that subject before, and I do not propose to repeat it now. However, I would like to say a few words about an industry which is peculiar to my own county, and that is the growing of strawberries. For some reason or other royal sovereign and a few other varieties of this fruit are virus-free in County Mayo. A pretty extensive industry has been built up there due to the assistance of the Department of Agriculture instructors. These instructors have done such magnificent work that no words of mine could adequately praise them. I do not happen to be even acquainted with these instructors, but I have heard the growers saying that they have proved of immense assistance. However, the survival of the industry depends entirely on two factors—the sale of the runners and the sale of the fruit to the jam manufacturers. The sale of the runners is an easy matter, because anybody who advertises virus-free runners is advertising a great rarity. In certain areas in County Mayo—I do not think the area has been clearly defined—certain strains of strawberries are virus-free. That is something that cannot be said about strawberries in England, Scotland or Wales. The result is that there are tremendous possibilities for a market for runners here. Owing, however, to imports of fruit pulp the strawberries are not wanted. Is the Minister aware that small growers who actually had contracts with the jam manufacturers—they were not written contracts but verbal ones—to supply them with all the strawberries they could produce were told to go and find a market elsewhere for them this year? That is due to the imports of pulp. The Minister shakes his head, but I can assure him that that is the case. The manufacturers cannot make strawberry jam without the strawberries, and if they cannot get the strawberries at home they will get them from outside. It is quite possible, of course, that they can buy pulp cheaper outside.

It is the small farmers, with a poor law valuation of under £10, who are engaged in this industry. The industry is growing, thriving and expanding. It is one which is helpful to the small farmer. I was speaking to one small farmer—I forget the particular acreage he had under strawberries—whose wages bill last year was £960. He was a small farmer with a poor law valuation of £10 or £11. That instance should give the Minister an idea of the possibilities that are in this particular little industry. If the Minister, when he is replying, tells me that we cannot expect jam manufacturers to give 98/-per cwt. for strawberries for the making of jam when we can buy pulp at half the price, then I want him to tell us why I should pay £2 10s. or £3 for a pair of Irish-made boots when I could get English boots of the same quality for £1 10s. 6d.

There are more counties than Mayo in difficulties in that respect also. We have the same trouble.

I am speaking of strawberries. I do know that there are growers of bush fruits other than strawberries who are in the same difficulty. Deputy Dillon's attitude to the glass-houses when Minister for Agriculture was criticised. A lot of that criticism was misrepresentation. It is the small farmer who is engaged in the cultivation of strawberries. That applies to every small farmer in every single one of the Twenty-Six Counties. It is a common occurrence to have crops of apples without having anybody to use them. In Dublin we find apples which are imported from California and Australia. We have to pay 10d. each for them. The Minister for Agriculture should not allow his colleagues to impose hare-brained ideas on him.

The farmers of the country are the Minister's own peculiar charge. Their welfare is the Minister's responsibility, and if he allows the state of affairs to which I have referred to happen he is not fit for his post. Deputy Dillon gave him some valuable advice on what his relations should be with the Minister for External Affairs. Ordinary farmers know exactly the value to put on the remarks on agriculture made by the Minister for External Affairs. They treated them as a joke. The man likes to talk about agriculture, but, judging by his remarks, he knows absolutely nothing about it. For charity's sake we refrain from guffawing at him. What does the Minister intend doing about the matter? I want him to protect the industry.

Mr. Walsh

We have been protecting it in the country for the past 12 months. The Deputy must have been asleep.

You have given it protection?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

Why have you allowed a reduction of 20/- per cwt. in the price?

Mr. Walsh

That is a matter for the jam manufacturers.

It is a matter for the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Walsh

It is not. There is no control over the prices.

But you should have. What does your colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, do in respect of Irish-made boots, steel and such things?

Mr. Walsh

I have not been asked——

It is not good enough for the Minister to walk into this House and say he is a helpless lump of humanity who can do nothing.

Mr. Walsh

It is not good enough for the Deputy to come in and speak on a subject about which he knows nothing. On the Deputy's own admission, he knows nothing about this matter.

Would the Minister meet a deputation of these growers?

Mr. Walsh

I met several deputations.

Will the Minister meet a deputation?

Mr. Walsh

Certainly, any time you send them up.

Very well. The Minister may revise his views now about what I know in relation to this matter. The Minister has allowed a reduction of 23/- per cwt. in the price of strawberries.

Mr. Walsh

I have no control over that. It is a matter for the growers and the jam manufacturers.

Will the price of jam come down?

The Minister might take a leaf out of the book of his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. What I am asking the Minister to do for the farmers is exactly what the Minister for Industry and Commerce did in respect of industry. That is not too much to ask. That is what the Minister is there for and I make no apology for asking him to do these things. If the Minister is going to allow an industry to die, it means that he is taking Deputy Dillon's machinery and agricultural policy and just sitting back calmly and allowing the matter to run. We are not going to have that and if the Minister does that he will have a pretty stormy passage in this House whether his term of office as Minister is long or short. There has been a reduction of practically 24/-per cwt. for strawberries.

Last Monday I was told by a man who had ten acres of royal sovereign that he ploughed them up as he could not afford to pay the labour. Does the Minister think that farmers are just a crowd of daft people?

In the White Paper supplied to us by the Minister last night we were told that the Brownsbarn farm was sold by public auction to a private individual.

Mr. Walsh

Sold before I came into office.

Why did you not tell us about that last year if that is the case? Did you know about it then?

Mr. Walsh

You had better ask Deputy Dillon about that.

I am asking you about it. There is another point I want to raise.

Mr. Walsh

Did not the Deputy want to say something about the Brownsbarn farm?

It is sold, is it not?

Mr. Walsh

Yes.

You told me it was sold before you came into office. That is what I wanted to know. With regard to loans to farmers at 6 per cent., the Minister should take that matter up with the Minister for Finance. Farmers should be given a cheaper loan than 6 per cent. if at all possible. In that regard I do not see why it is necessary to act like school children as the present Government seem to be doing. We follow suit in everything that is done across the water whether it is right or wrong. There is a big difference between the problems of this country and those of England. We should not follow them blindly in everything. I do not see why the Minister and the present Government should adopt that attitude. No farmers will accept a loan at 6 per cent. It is too heavy.

On the question of farm buildings, I want to bring to the Minister's notice a matter which I have mentioned many times before. There is scarcely a holding or a homestead in the Twenty-Six Counties that has sufficient out-office buildings. The Minister should not be niggardly in regard to the making of grants for out-office buildings.

I also want the Minister to take up with the Minister for Finance the question of the poor law valuations on out-office buildings. The Minister may say that is a thorny problem, and perhaps it is for the Minister for Finance. The Minister should remember, however, that because of the heavy rainfall in every part of this country the loss suffered by farmers each year is pretty hefty. That applies particularly in a bad year. Crops and farm machinery, therefore, should be housed. On most farms the crops and the farm machinery cannot be housed because there are not sufficient buildings.

The Minister will probably tell me that this has its roots in the past, that, because of the old landlord system from which we got away only a comparatively short time ago, farmers had not any incentive to build out-offices. If they did it in these old days they would be building for somebody else, because they would be evicted as soon as they had put up the buildings. One serious problem facing most farmers is that, because of the heavy rainfall, a certain percentage of corn and hay is lost each year. These should be housed and the farm machinery and tools should be housed. More stock should be housed to provide the farmyard manure necessary to keep up the fertility of the land.

One of the principal reasons that deter farmers from putting up extra out-offices is that there is a relic of the old landlord system still with us. When the farmer has finished putting up such a building a valuation officer is on his doorstep to clap on an increased valuation. That is a relic of the time when, if a man put in better windows in his house, the landlord's agent was around to raise his rent. That is a relic which we should be ashamed to admit is still with us. I would say that the loss all over the country in crops and farm machinery and from the fact that we do not house sufficient live stock to produce more farmyard manure would amount to £5,000,000 or even £7,000,000 a year. That is a very serious gap in our economy which should be stopped. The amount provided in this Estimate for farm buildings is totally insufficient. If the Minister wants to induce farmers to put up more and better out-offices, the first thing he must do is to take up with the Minister for Finance this question of the poor law valuation being increased when the out-offices are finished. These may seem very commonplace things, but they are important in the working of every holding all over the country.

I am glad that the present Government have not departed from the policy handed over to them by Deputy Dillon. The only danger we are confronted with is that in the Minister's speech there was an atmosphere of complacency, a feeling that everything was grand. I want to compliment the Minister on continuing the land rehabilitation scheme. He should carry that on by all means. He should not mind Deputy Bartley's statement about what was supposed to be happening in Connemara. There is a vast area in Connemara on which it would be only criminal waste to spend money, but there is a certain area of land which can be usefully reclaimed there. If the Minister wants to further the interests of the people there and to do good work for them, he should interest himself in the forestry side of the operations of the Land Commission because there is a whole lot of land on which it would be wrong to spend money in order to reclaim it but which will grow excellent timber. If the Minister looks up some of the experimental work done during my time and which is proceeding very nicely at the moment, he will find that that is the way to do it. He should get on with the land reclamation scheme.

Coupled with the land reclamation scheme there is another problem, namely, that the work being done by the land rehabilitation officials may clash with that of the Board of Works in connection with arterial drainage. In South and North Mayo there was a considerable area which the land rehabilitation officials were quite willing to deal with but could not do it because the river Moy and certain tributaries were being held up by obstructions. Shortly before the change of Government there were consultations between the Board of Works officials and the land rehabilitation officials as to removing major obstructions in the Moy. I can understand the objection of the Commissioners of Public Works to doing piecemeal work, but nevertheless I believe that that should be done in certain cases. The Tinnacarra rock is an outstanding example of what can be done in a piecemeal way without waiting for a big drainage project to be proceeded with.

I want to impress on the Minister the urgency of doing certain work on rivers even though the Board of Works may regard it as piecemeal work. There is one argument which the Board of Works cannot get over, namely, that if there are three or four or five obstructions on a river which are holding up land reclamation activity, and they are removed, there will be less work for the Board of Works to do when they come along. It does not mean overlapping. If a ton of rock or silt or sand is removed from the bed of a river by the land reclamation officials to ease flooding in a particular area, that is so much work done for the Board of Works when they come along with their arterial drainage scheme. The Minister should not take that argument from the Board of Works.

The principal matter to be considered, however, as I said, is the terrible flight from the land, particularly of small farmers. I do not want the Minister to sit back complacently and let them go because he can and should find some solution to check that at least. The flight of small farmers from the countryside at present leaves the clearances by Cromwell 300 years ago in the shade. If it continues for a few more years rural Ireland will get into a very bad plight. If the Minister has any doubt as to what is happening he should have a talk with the Minister for Education and ask him for the average of attendances in the national schools. He will find that there is an alarming drop in the number of children attending these schools and that many schools have been closed down.

In concluding his speech, Deputy Dillon said that he did not know why on earth he had put down a motion to refer this Estimate back. For once I am in complete agreement with Deputy Dillon. I do not know why on earth he put down a motion to refer back this Estimate. Last night when the Minister was introducing the Estimate and speaking of the work that had been done by the Department and the policy that it is proposed to pursue during the coming year, his speech was interlarded with applause, rousing applause, from his immediate predecessor. Thus we have the position now in which Deputy Dillon finds himself in complete agreement with the Government's agricultural policy.

His own policy.

Their agreement with his policy.

For 30 years this country has been cursed with a conflict between the two main political Parties in regard to agriculture. I, as a farmer, have watched that conflict with a certain amount of anger and resentment because I considered it was unnecessary. There is no room for two sound agricultural policies in this country. There is room for only one agricultural policy and that is a policy calculated to increase the annual output of the land while at the same time preserving and increasing its fertility. There is the foundation of agricultural policy and all Governments, whether they be Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or inter-Party must base their agricultural policy on that foundation if this country is to survive.

One of the things that filled me with anger and resentment all during the years of the inter-Party Government was the attempts, the persistent attempts, made by Deputy Dillon as Minister to stir up acrimony and bitterness in regard to agricultural policy, the attempts which he made to pretend that he had initiated an entirely new agricultural policy and that everything was wrong until he took up office. In the course of his speech to-day he has more or less suggested that our present Minister is too mild and too moderate and, perhaps, too peaceful in his dealings with agricultural matters. Might I suggest, on the other hand, that during his period of office Deputy Dillon was too noisy and too overbearing in his dealings with agricultural matters? He blew his own trumpet so loudly that he could not hear the voices of those trying to advise him and the result was that he made serious and grave mistakes which he now perhaps regrets and which contributed in a large measure to his removal from office. All that, however, is past.

To-day we face the future and we must face it with courage and confidence, but not with complacency. I do not entirely agree with Deputy Dillon when he says that the volume of agricultural output increased and that it is satisfactory. It is not entirely satisfactory. We have very little increase over the pre-war level. We know that the agricultural output in 1937 and 1938 was low and there was very little increase in the period since the war.

As a matter of fact we find that the White Paper which has been circulated reveals a substantial decrease in recent years. In the last year in which Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture as compared with the first year when he was Minister there was a decline of 500,000 acres in tillage. In the same year 1951 when he was turned out of office the number of cows—and cows are very fundamental to our agricultural economy—went down by 19,000 as compared with 1950. The number of in-calf heifers went down by 33,000 and that was a substantial percentage of the total number of in-calf heifers. In that year also the number of calves declined by 5,000. In the same year the number of sows declined by 400 whilst the number of poultry went down substantially. At the end of that year Deputy Dillon himself also went down with all his guns blazing, leaving behind him on the public mind an assurance that his policy was a failure. "Keep one more cow, one more sow and put one more acre under the plough", was the policy which he recommended. Instead of one more cow, the number of cows had gone down substantially during his period of office. Instead of one more sow the number of sows had been reduced substantially and instead of one more acre under the plough there was a decrease of 500,000 acres in tillage in his last year of office as compared with the year in which he took office.

Realising I suppose that the management of the Department of Agriculture was not as simple a proposition as he had thought before he took office, realising that he had not such a magnificent record to show to the public, realising all the difficulties that face a Minister dealing with Agriculture, I think Deputy Dillon faced the consideration of this Estimate in a milder mood than it was customary for him to display in this House. I think that is all to the good. I do not want a bitter conflict in regard to agricultural policy. What we want is steady progress. I do not accept the view of Deputy Dillon that because our present Minister does not go around the country bellowing and boasting about what he is doing, what his Government is doing and what his Department is doing, nevertheless steady progress cannot be made. On that basis I want to express my views in regard to what is most urgently essential in relation to agricultural policy in the next few years. I am taking it as a matter of fact that the present Minister for Agriculture will have control of agricultural policy for a number of years. If I were asked to give a list of what are the most important essentials in regard to the development of agricultural policy I would say: "First improve the fertility of the soil by the restoration to the soil of the mineral and organic matter which is necessary for the production of crops." All agricultural policy or progress should be based on the soil being put into first class condition. That is essential No. 1.

That is the Dillon scheme.

Dillon be damned.

That is what you wish.

The soil was there before Deputy Dillon was ever heard of and the soil will be there after him and after all of us. One can say that 50 and 100 years ago the farmers realised the importance of increasing the fertility of the soil. Men actually drew lime a distance of nearly 40 miles to spread it on their land in order to improve it. They dug up the marl clay in the bogs, carted it long distances and spread it on the land in order to improve it. Even when the price for live stock was not very good, they fed their stock over the winter months in order to be able to accumulate supplies of farmyard manure to increase the fertility of the soil. They did all that long before Deputy Dillon was heard of and his loud-tongued play-acting in this country.

Having brought the soil to its maximum state of fertility, the next essential is to increase the live stock population. The figures which I gave in regard to cows, in-calf heifers and yearlings were not encouraging, but I believe that, with a steady, progressive policy, we can step up the number of our livestock. I should like to point out to the Minister that you cannot increase the numbers of cattle and sheep very rapidly. That is particularly true of cattle.

I have nothing to say in regard to sheep in that respect because I think the position there is satisfactory, but in the case of cattle, you cannot expect a very rapid expansion in numbers. That is why I think great emphasis should be laid on the necessity for an expansion in the number of pigs. Steps should be taken immediately to increase the pig population. Having increased the fertility of the soil, you can build up a bigger live-stock population most rapidly by expanding the pig-producing industry. It must be based mainly on home-produced feeding stuffs. I propose to go into that in much greater detail later, but that, as I say, should be the basis of our policy.

The next essential is to increase and substantially improve the quality of our dairy stock, particularly in regard to milk yield. The final point, of course, in regard to what is essential in agriculture is the improvement of technical knowledge and agricultural education generally. Those are, I think, the broad fundamental principles which should guide the Minister in regard to agricultural policy. The first is to get the soil into condition. If it is not in condition, nothing is in condition. Any investigations that have been carried out in this country have revealed that 80 per cent. of the soil of Ireland is not in a proper condition of fertility for maximum production. The question is how to get individual farmers to utilise the maximum amount of lime and fertilisers, by putting them on the land as quickly as possible.

Deputy Blowick mentioned that the ground limestone scheme was initiated by Deputy Dillon, but of course we all know that the scheme for the setting up of the limestone grinding plants was long in operation before Deputy Dillon took office. We all know, too, that when he did take office there was a lime subsidy scheme operated by the county committees of agriculture, and that immediately the ground limestone came on the market the county committees of agriculture proceeded to apply the lime subsidy to it. No sooner had they announced their decision to do so than the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, stepped in, I think at the end of 1948, and said: "No, you must not subsidise ground limestone". Now, how can any Deputy like Deputy Blowick assert, in the face of that fact, that Deputy Dillon when Minister for Agriculture, initiated the ground limestone scheme?

What Deputy Dillon did was to try to kill the ground limestone scheme by prohibiting county committees of agriculture from giving the subsidy which they were entitled to give under the previous scheme. I was one of a deputation from a county committee of agriculture that waited on Deputy Dillon in 1949, and on bended knees implored him to continue the subsidy for ground limestone. What he did was to chase us all out of the office and tell us that he would continue the subsidy on burned lime, and that under no circumstances would he allow any county committee of agriculture to pay a subsidy on ground limestone. That condition operated in 1949 and 1950 until stronger powers, the representative of the E.C.A., took action and compelled the then Minister for Agriculture to reintroduce the ground lime subsidy scheme. When he was kicked into adopting that scheme by the representative of the E.C.A., the then Minister and his admirers went through the country with their trumpets announcing that this was another Dillon scheme. In public life, as Deputy Dillon mentioned to-day, a certain amount of toughness is necessary, a certain amount of what Deputy Corry would describe as "neck". I suppose Deputy Dillon has kept that point before his mind and has developed it to the fullest extent.

You could spare a little of it yourself.

What I am stating is a plain, honest fact which cannot be denied. Deputy Dillon cannot deny that he prohibited the county committees of agriculture from giving a subsidy on ground limestone.

I regard you as a ridiculous and disgusting fraud whom I do not want to contradict.

That is typical of Deputy Dillon. Apparently, the one person who does not disgust him is himself. I am not going to go into details as to how that scheme operated. I simply want to emphasise the one point that the subsidy on ground limestone was not initiated by Deputy Dillon. As a matter of fact, the scheme was already in operation, and he deliberately prohibited the county committees of agriculture from continuing to make the subsidy available on ground limestone.

He was perfectly right.

According to the Deputy, everything that he did was perfectly right. The Deputy says that he was perfectly right when he withdrew the subsidy on the ground limestone, and I suppose he was perfectly right when he reimposed it on the instructions of the E.C.A. representative.

He exposed the racket.

We know there was a good deal of racketeering in regard to the manner in which Deputy Dillon's subsidy on ground limestone was operated. If that matter was gone into closely, it would, I suggest, disclose a considerable amount of racketeering and hugger-mugger, dishonesty and inefficiency. I think that a certain amount of it is still continuing by reason of the fact that the subsidy on limestone is payable regardless of the distance that it is carried. I think that, as a result, there is a good deal of over-lapping with regard to transport and that attempts are being made to earn as much of the subsidy as possible by carrying it long distances when it could be obtained more easily closer to the farm. These are matters which I am sure the Minister will keep under supervision. I do not intend to go into all of these matters now because I have certain constructive suggestions to make in regard to the manner in which we should get lime applied to the greatest portion of the land as quickly as possible.

In the past year, I think that over £500,000 has been laid out in the subsidy on the transport of limestone. My only complaint is that a great many farmers who need this limestone very badly are not able to avail of the scheme to the utmost. Well-to-do farmers can get the full benefit of the subsidy. They have their bank accounts and their cheque books and all they have to do is to go in and order 100 or 200 tons of lime for their pasture land in Meath or Westmeath, and so forth. But the poorer farmer — the struggling man about whom Deputy Blowick spoke—finds it difficult to avail of the full benefits of the scheme. He is living from hand to mouth and the result is that either he will be satisfied with a very small quantity of lime or that he will do without it altogether. In consequence, his crops suffer.

Last Sunday I spoke to a farmer who has a very considerable acreage of dry, sound upland which is in a very poor condition. He said that he would like it to be fertilised. I referred him to the lime and fertiliser credit scheme which is under the Minister's control. He pointed out that if he availed of the scheme for the liming, and fertilising, of his entire holding the cost would be added to his rent. When he went into the figures he found that if he were to do the entire farm it would add very considerably to his rent. He asked if it would be possible to get the Minister for Agriculture to revise the scheme so as to enable a farmer to treat a portion of his farm with lime and fertiliser or, alternatively, to treat the entire farm with lime only: I think that would be the more attractive alternative. A farmer does not like to add substantially to his rent and the cost of buying lime and fertiliser is very substantial. The cost of applying lime only would be a lesser undertaking and it is one which any farmer would be prepared to consider. If the lime and fertiliser scheme is amended so that a farmer who is not prepared to face the cost of a complete scheme can have a partial scheme for his land then I think it will be readily availed of by thousands of farmers who have not so far taken advantage of the present scheme. I think that a partial scheme would have several advantages over the complete scheme.

The cost of artificial fertilisers is very high at present. Therefore, a farmer who incurs debt in order to apply those fertilisers would be undertaking a fairly heavy liability from which he might not reap the greatest benefit, unless he had the best quality stock on his land. If, however, he limed his holding to the extent to which it needed to be limed he would get an advantage not for one year but for a considerable number of years because the fertilising value of the lime in the soil lasts for a considerable time. I hope the Minister will consider that revision of the lime and fertiliser scheme. Having supplied the necessary mineral and organic matter that the land requires, you must, side by side with that, remove the weeds which are simply waste in the pasture. You have either to re-seed the land or plough up the land for an arable crop with proper rotation and proper renewing before putting it down to pasture again. All that costs a considerable amount of money but, if you like, it is a short-term expenditure because the growing of crops on well-manured land must yield a fairly speedy return.

I have pointed out what I consider to be the fundamental principles in relation to improved agriculture. I have said that an expansion of the pig-producing industry, based on home-produced feeding-stuffs, ranks very high in the order of priority. The farmer who has improved his soil by the application of manures can get a return from that soil by sowing cash crops and selling them off the land. That type of return is, however, a very short-term return. At the end of a few years he will find that his soil has gone back to the poor condition in which he found it originally. The best method is to feed by far the greater quantity of the additional output from the land to live stock and to produce the organic manure that is necessary for the soil and thus create an unending cycle of fertility in his soil. Having regard to the price of live stock at present, it is difficult for the farmer with limited means to increase quickly the number of his live stock on the farm. That is why I suggested that the Department or the Minister should emphasise the need for rapid expansion of the pig producing industry; that policy of increased numbers of pigs to be linked up closely with the growing of increased quantities of feeding barley, potatoes and fodder beet; these three crops to be almost exclusively for pig feeding—perhaps for poultry also but mainly for pig feeding—and the two lines of policy, the growing of increased supplies of feeding stuffs to be linked with the feeding of additional numbers of pigs. That is one feature of the agriculture that can be expanded rapidly, that can be expanded very extensively. I believe that if an all-out effort is being made with regard to the pig industry with perhaps the same publicity and drive as was given to the expansion of the poultry industry during the last year of Deputy Smith's period of office and the first year of Deputy Dillon's period of office, if that were done with regard to the pig industry we would get an expansion in our total agricultural output that would be spectacular in the course of a couple of years. If the farmer grows his potatoes and the other crops I mentioned almost entirely for the purpose of converting them into pork on the farm, the output of his farm and his income would grow enormously.

In this connection it is significant to mention the figures of employment and income and the value of the output on the land in Denmark as compared with Ireland. In the Irish Republic the number of persons per 100 acres employed on the land is five. In Denmark the number is seven. That is not a very substantial excess over the number here but it is a fairly substantial percentage and if we were to increase the number of agricultural workers or the number of people living on and making a living on the land by that percentage it would be very substantial. It would amount to the employment of tens of thousands of additional workers. But that is not the important point. The important point is that with our low standard of employment on the land, the value of the net output of each worker here is £163. The value of the net output of each worker in Denmark is £288. That is a startling figure and one which should be perused carefully by anyone who is inclined to be complacent about agricultural progress in this State. Not only is there in Denmark an increased number of persons employed on the land but the income per person is almost double what it is here. If you look at the question from another angle and take the value of the net output per acre here as compared with Denmark you will find that the value of the net output of each acre of land here is £8.2. The value of the net output of each acre in Denmark is £20.5. Surely there is something radically wrong when we consider that our output per acre is so low. There may be certain other factors in connection with this matter, certain difficulties here that do not exist in Denmark but there should not be the gap of £12 between the value of the net output of an acre of land here as compared with Denmark. It is, of course, true that in Denmark the percentage of land under tillage is 75 per cent. and here it is 15 per cent. There again the gap between the two countries is too wide. I do not believe in tillage for its own sake. I do not think anybody here does nor do I think anybody should, but there is very much to be said for increasing tillage so as to increase substantially the live-stock population of the country. That is particularly true in regard to poultry and pigs.

Apart from his opening blunder in regard to the application of lime to the soil, I think one of Deputy Dillon's great mistakes was when he pinned his faith for the poultry and pig producing industries on the importation of unlimited quantities of cheap maize. In his first year of office he announced to the world, he proclaimed from the house tops, that farmers should go ahead, keep all the pigs they could, all the poultry they could, all the hens they could, drown England with eggs, and so forth, and that he would guarantee to them unlimited quantities of cheap imported maize. Farmers did increase the number of hens; they did increase the numbers of pigs on their farms during that year and early in the subsequent year, but they found when they stretched their hands for the cheap imported maize it was not to be had and farmers who had gone in for poultry keeping on a large scale, buoyed up by the promises of the then Minister, found themselves with heaps of wooden poultry houses all over their fields which were not a source of profit to them because they could not find the feeding for their poultry. They had to dispose of those poultry houses at whatever they could get for them. That was a disaster which hit many innocent, unassuming and trusting people some of them amateur farmers who accepted the Minister's word that he would provide them with unlimited quantities of cheap imported maize. Because of the Minister's reliance upon cheap imported maize and his subsequent failure to supply that essential commodity the pig and poultry industries collapsed again on his hands and he went out of office with both of those branches of agriculture in a state of grave decline.

Now we have a chance of starting again. We have not so much chance of expanding the poultry industry, so I am not so confident there and anyhow there is not so much room for a big expansion in that industry but there is certainly plenty of room for a big expansion in the pig industry. We have a reasonable assurance of stability of price, but I think the farmer must be assisted, particularly the smaller farmer, particularly the man with limited capital, in the first place, with an assurance that there will not be any more of this huckstering with the price of pigs. It is not good enough to have the price of pigs fluctuating from month to month when there is no apparent reason for this fluctuation. There is a strong feeling amongst farmers that the prices of pigs and bacon are manipulated by those in the bacon curing and in the pig-buying business.

The Minister should take strong action in that matter. The people who will produce pigs and expand pig production are the ordinary farmers. They are people of limited means. They have limited powers as far as organisation and agitation is concerned. They must be protected from any sharks who may try to exploit them.

The man who produces a first-class pig of the right weight is entitled to get the last penny that pig is worth and that is where the Minister must be strong and firm when he is dealing with the bacon curing and pig buying interests. There have been too many fluctuations. A farmer may spend three or four months producing a first-class pig and find at the end of that period that the income he expected to get is drastically cut because of the operations of some combine or other. There is a certain amount of over-lapping which brings in its train incompetence and inefficiency.

Having regard to the importance of the industry and the part it can play in increasing output and the extent to which it can benefit the uneconomic smallholder, the Minister should make up his mind to the fact that his first obligation is to ensure that the man who produces a first-class pig gets the highest price he can for his animal. Naturally there was antagonism to the scheme for the elimination of coloured pigs. I have the greatest sympathy with the farmers who felt themselves aggrieved because of the operation of that policy.

The feeding and rearing of pigs is not the simple task some would have us believe. A small farmer may have two or three sows. He may find that they are not productive. On the other hand, he may find that the coloured breeds are more virile and more productive. That may not be the experience of the Department of Agriculture, but it is the experience of the ordinary farmers.

We are looking forward to a huge expansion in our bacon exports. If that is the aim of the Government, then we must consider the desirability of producing the best quality bacon for that market. That is the sole justification for the Order. It would be very undesirable to find that our bacon, because it was produced from breeds not providing the best quality meat, was refused or that a lower price was offered for it on the export market. We must aim at perfection in supplying our customer's demands. The Minister should look into the matter. It is true that certain breeds produce a better thriving and more productive pig and it might be possible to find some breed which can be crossed with the large white.

What breed do you suggest?

I am only asking the Minister to look into the matter.

Mr. Coburn

What about the guinea pig?

I am asking the Minister to look into it.

I never heard such a lot of balderdash in my life.

I do not approve of allowing the quality of bacon pigs to deteriorate, as happened when coloured breeds were imported in sufficient numbers to depress the quality of bacon and create a certain amount of uneasiness in relation to the bacon industry.

Sir, I do not see why we should be the only people to suffer this infliction and I direct your attention to the fact that there is not a quorum.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Deputy Dillon to-day spoke for the most part without a quorum. He has considerably modified his attitude towards agriculture but during the recent elections he went through the country with a flaming torch and his satellite, Deputy O. Flanagan, followed him with a smaller but smellier torch. These two gentlemen proclaimed from the housetops, or as near the housetops as they could get, that it was the intention of the Government to impose a tax upon our cattle exports. Imagine these gentlemen thinking they could fool the farmers into believing that the Government would tax their cattle. But the farmers of Waterford, Limerick, Mayo and the country generally know these two playboys well. They did not accept one word they uttered. That damped Deputy Dillon's ardour and he did not appear in the House for a fortnight, but it did not entirely damp Deputy Flanagan's ardour. He crops up as spruce as you like at the Laois County Committee of Agriculture and announces that the Government are going to impose a tax upon cattle.

How are Deputy Flanagan's remarks relevant to this Estimate?

I am asking the Minister to deal with this line of propaganda. It is a very malicious type of propaganda, so far as the cattle trade is concerned, a type of propaganda which could do serious damage to it. The Minister must come out into the open and deal with these scares, these slanders, if you like, these attempts to create false alarm in the country, as vigorously as the situation demands.

Do you expect him to sack Senator Quirke?

Who started the hare?

The hare was started in the recent election by the Flanagan-Dillon combination. They chased that hare all over the county, but it got away from them. The unfortunate thing is that there are still some simple, innocent country people who will swallow that type of propaganda and Deputy Flanagan succeeded in getting his county committee—there may not have been many members present—to pass a resolution protesting against this alleged tax on cattle. It is time to put an end to that kind of balderdash. I am sorry that Deputy Dillon is leaving, because I have another piece of propaganda here which I should like him to hear, but perhaps Deputy Collins will deal with it. Deputy Flanagan announced at the same meeting that Irish creamery butter was being sold in Antwerp at 2/7 per lb., or 1/3 less than the price at which it is being sold to our own people. That statement was made by Deputy Flanagan at a meeting of the Laois County Committee of Agriculture and he said: "I am very definite about this." His veracity could not be questioned. Competent judges had expressed their opinion on it and nobody in this House dared to disagree with him. The editor of the Carlow Nationalist, however, got in touch with the Department and then published this denial:—

"Our reporter who phoned the Government Information Bureau on Wednesday to verify Deputy Flanagan's statement was informed that no creamery butter has been exported since 1950."

Notwithstanding the fact that no creamery butter has been exported since 1950, Deputy Flanagan claims that it is being sold in Antwerp at 1/3 less than the price at which it is sold to the people of Ireland. It may be some of the 1950 butter which is still in preservation there.

Brian Boru stuff.

It is not good enough that the agricultural industry should be—I will not say sabotaged, because I do not think it is in the power of either Deputy Flanagan or Deputy Dillon, his tutor, to sabotage the agricultural industry—damaged by these gentlemen who now occupy the front Opposition bench who go around the country trying to do it the maximum amount of harm. Both these statements were utterly and completely false, but they were circulated and given the widest publicity possible, with scare headings, in order to do the maximum amount of damage to the agricultural industry.

There is one problem which will face the Government in the near future to which I want to draw the Minister's attention. I refer to the marketing of our present year's oats crop. One of the last acts of the former Minister was to import into this country from Australia 16,000 tons of oats. It was not oats of the very best quality but the price was fairly substantial and the net result of that importation was to put the grain stores of the country in a rather congested condition, with the result that over the past winter the price of oats not only did not increase but declined considerably. Farmers who could afford to do it, and who thought they were cute in so doing, held oats and then found that, because of Deputy Dillon's imprudent import, they had to take a very substantial reduction in the price of their oats.

I do not think that the congested condition of the corn stores has been completely remedied up to the present and for that reason the Minister should take steps to ensure that any farmer who has a quantity of oats to sell will be assured of a market for it at a reasonable price. It will be remembered that one of my disagreements with the former Minister was in connection with this matter. I suggested that if everything else failed, if the merchants could not see their way to buy oats from the farmers, the Government should step in as a buyer not at a high price but at a price which would enable the farmers to get the oats off their hands and so meet whatever demands they have to meet in order to pay their way. The then Minister ridiculed that scheme. He called it "Deputy Cogan's tomfool scheme", but it was put into operation in spite of him by his colleagues and the net result was that, at the end of the year, the oats were sold at no loss to the taxpayer. Not one penny of the taxpayers' money was lost over the transaction and farmers got a market for their oats. The only mistake made was that Deputy Dillon towards the end of the year again imprudently authorised the export of half the total amount of oats. A quantity of 20,000 tons was bought and he authorised the export to Germany of 10,000 tons.

He possibly thought that the way to deal with the Nazi beast was to stuff him with stirabout. This problem may arise again to some extent or it may not. It may be that the Minister will take away whatever surplus oats are available and that the whole problem will be adjusted, but if it is not the Minister should consider a scheme which worked so successfully before in spite of Deputy Dillon's opposition and which cost the taxpayer not one shilling. There will always be occasional surpluses of agricultural produce but they will not be permanent. You may have a surplus of oats one year and a shortage the next and with judicious management you can hold over the surplus of one year to meet the shortage of the next so that hardship to small farmers and people with limited capital can be avoided. That is why I strongly recommend the Minister to keep a close eye on the oats market to ensure that the problem which arose in 1948 will not arise again.

Deputy Dillon was very vocal and jubilant about farmers' butter. To him it is a source of great delight that the ordinary hard-working farmer will not get as good a price for his butter as he should. He has the impudence to suggest that only the farmer who makes bad butter finds a difficulty in selling it. He says that people who make first-class butter get a first-class price equal to that which the creameries are getting.

He is right.

It is not true. It just shows how well informed Deputy Dillon is about ordinary agricultural produce. Viewing the farmers from the safety of the right side of the counter he thinks that he can view their difficulties and problems with a certain measure of complacency and amusement. The problem of farmers' butter is a peculiar one and a peculiarly difficult one, in that the farmer who makes good butter and has a certain quantity the whole year round has a market whereas the farmer who makes good butter but has a surplus to sell for only two months cannot get a market. There are thousands of farmers with the best quality butter which is far superior to creamery butter who cannot find a market at the present time because it is during the two or three months of the summer that you have a glut.

That is the real problem and it is extremely difficult because it is difficult to devise a means by which this good quality butter can be collected from the farmers and stored in such a way that it will keep. Farmers' butter does not keep as well as creamery butter unless it is very heavily salted and it requires cold storage as well. Over the years the purchase of surplus butter in the summer months was left to one or two firms. If those firms wanted to get the maximum for that commodity, if they went all out to ensure that it would fetch high prices in the market and find a ready sale, they would do their utmost to operate an efficient system to collect that butter from the farmers, but we all know that the system is hopelessly inefficient. This butter is bought in the main by country shopkeepers who have no system of grading it and who, even if they decided to do so, would find it very hard to operate a grading system against their customers. The result is that the very best quality country butter is thrown into a box with the very worst quality and, of course, it all deteriorates and is brought down to the same condition. In addition, the butter lies in the shop beside artificial manures and all the other commodities which you find in a country shop for at least a whole week after being perhaps two or three days in the farm before it is brought in. Under these circumstances, no matter what effort the farmer makes to ensure first-class quality, the butter could not be in first-class condition after that.

I am not blaming Deputy Dillon for the fact that it is difficult to find a good export market for this commodity. The blame rests to a considerable extent upon the people engaged in the trade. Deputy Dillon, however, did not improve matters by describing the butter as cart grease and proclaiming to the world that we had to call out the fire brigade to get it to the boat for export. That is not a good way to get better prices.

On a point of order, are we dealing with the 1952 Estimate or are we going back to the Estimate for 1948/49?

There is a motion to refer back the Estimate and the basis for discussion is widened because of that.

Notwithstanding the fact that the basis for discussion has been widened I am dealing with the position at the present moment.

The Deputy is dealing with Deputy Dillon, I think.

The present Minister's attitude is the same as Deputy Dillon's so what the Deputy has to say against the previous Minister will apply to him.

Would he deal with the present Minister or is he afraid?

If you leave him alone he will dry up some time.

All I said about Deputy Dillon was that he did not help the position by proclaiming that the butter was of inferior quality.

There are several things which should be done to improve the position. The butter could be graded. Buyers could be sent around to grade it and only good quality butter should be purchased. We should also ensure a more speedy and efficient system of collection. It is true that over a long period the Department of Agriculture have, to a great extent, been rather neglectful of country butter. We have poultry and butter-making instructresses throughout the country but very little time is devoted to butter-making. Almost all their time is devoted to the poultry side of their business. You can see the contrast in the case of creamery butter, inasmuch as every creamery is on a register which is passed by the Department and that is a guarantee that the quality of their butter is up to standard. A similar system should be possible for farmers' butter. You could have some sort of registration and a wrapper could be issued to the people who produce it efficiently so that it would be sold as first-class butter.

The alternative is to enlarge the area of creamery collection so as to cover all districts where farmers' butter is made. That is the only alternative, particularly for the three or four months of the summer, and it is the alternative which should be carefully canvassed and considered by local committees of agriculture wherever this problem arises. The use of lorries and the travelling creamery can enlarge the scope of every existing creamery. I am not suggesting the erection of additional central creameries. I am suggesting that their scope of operation should be widened. The problem is extremely difficult, not because the quality of the butter is bad but because the production period extends for only three months, during which the market is glutted with this product. With lorries, the creameries would be in a better position to carry out the collection of the milk.

In outlining the essentials of a sound agricultural policy, I mentioned the improvement of the soil as priority number one and next to it the expansion of the live-stock industry, mainly in order to bring about immediately an expansion of the pig producing industry and then the improvement of our dairy stock. I am a member of a county committee of agriculture and at their last meeting I proposed a resolution requesting that our officials should press for the establishment of cow testing associations all over the county, so that every cow in the county, whether supplying milk to the City of Dublin or to the creameries, would be on the register and under test, so that her yield would be recorded. The committee, by a majority—and in this case the majority consisted mainly of the Fine Gael Party—voted against the proposal and said that cow testing was not called for.

I do not agree. If we are to get an upgrade in the milking qualities of our cows, we must make cow testing general. No matter by what means we extend it, we must extend it to every district and to every farm throughout the State. Every cow, whether employed for the purpose of producing milk for the farm or for the rearing of calves, or used to produce milk for delivery to the city or to creameries, should come under the scheme of registration. All farmers would then have a clear idea of the productive capacity of those cows and would have the record established, so that the progeny of the cow also could be registered and they could bring a higher price to the rearer. Also, the person purchasing an in-calf heifer or a milch cow would have some definite scientific information in regard to the pedigree of that cow as far as milk yield is concerned. That is essential. There has been a lot of talk about dual purpose cows, but no cow should be kept unless it is registered, whether to rear calves or feed pigs or something else. It does not pay to keep lowmilking cows and there is no necessity to keep them, if we would only have a yield record, so that any man going out to the market to buy a cow would at least have the assurance, from the ancestry of the cow, that the cow had a certain milk yield behind it.

I was mentioning, before the Minister came in, that the county committee of agriculture in his own constituency, which should be a very enlightened place, passed a resolution within the last month condemning cow testing. I do not know on what grounds these gentlemen, mainly of the Fine Gael Party, condemned it. I think cow testing is essential. There may be certain faults in the way in which it is operated at present. It may need some tightening up or improvement, but it is absolutely essential for the improvement of the milk yields.

I do not think there is any need to have low milking cows. Any Shorthorn cow should be able to give over 600 gallons, if fed properly. That should be a minimum, and with that we could make good progress. We would have the cow producing a substantial quantity of milk and also producing heifers required to replace the cows in the dairying industry and also, if required, it could produce first-class beef cattle for the beef trade. The farmer could go to the Shorthorn cow if he wants to go in for the store cattle trade and stock portion of his land with good store cattle. He could cross the Shorthorn with an Aberdeen Angus or a Hereford, and get the best quality stores, a better quality perhaps than he would get if his cow were of the pure beef breed such as Hereford or Aberdeen Angus alone.

Just to show how essential this is, I may relate that I was speaking to an extensive farmer last week, who keeps a Friesian herd and supplies milk to the city. He is an extensive farmer inasmuch as he carries a certain amount of store cattle on his farm. He finds them expensive to buy and wants to breed store cattle. He proposes to breed them from the Friesians by a cross with the Herefords. I do not know how successful he will be. He told me himself he had some cows of the Shorthorn breed that are equal to the Friesians, and I thought he would do far better to concentrate on the Shorthorn breed, where he would have a better foundation stock both for the beef branch of his business and the milk branch of his business.

There was only one matter in which Deputy Dillon expressed his disagreement with the Minister for Agriculture. In regard to every other matter, he had nothing but applause for the Minister's policy generally. He did condemn the change which has been introduced by the Minister with regard to the advisory service throughout the State. Deputy Dillon talks about the parish plan as if he were the father and mother of that plan. We all know that the author of the scheme was Father Hayes and Muintir na Tíre, and that it was taken over by Deputy Dillon in his first year of office. He very grandly announced that he would put into operation in every part of the land a parish plan, or a parish agent as he calls it, in every parish. He announced that at a rural week in Carlow.

A year later, difficulties having arisen in the meantime, he got up at another rural week, I think in Navan, and announced that the parish plan had gone up the spout. Later again, he introduced what he called the three-parish arrangement, by which three parishes would be grouped together, because he could not find enough agents to put one in every parish. He pretended he was about to introduce, in conjunction with Macra na Feirme, a three-club plan.

All these plans hung gracefully in the air until Deputy Dillon went out of office and the present Minister announced that he had no intention of following these various activities of his predecessor and that, as we need additional advisory service and since that is probably justifiable in present circumstances, his proposal was to increase the number of agricultural instructors in each county.

The Minister for Agriculture?

The present Minister for Agriculture. His plan was to increase the number of agricultural instructors in each county and that is the policy which I assume he will continue to follow.

On analysis, fundamentally there is not a great difference between the two propositions. They both achieve the same result. They both increase the advisory service. The present Minister is not impressed by the Americanism of calling these gentlemen parish agents. We are American educated to a great extent through the cinema. That name may sound attractive but the present Minister, being a cautious, prudent, plodding gentleman, does not want to make any change and he calls them agricultural instructors as they have been called in the past.

What will be the net result of this increase in the number of agricultural instructors? If the scheme is properly organised, it will mean that each instructor will have a comparatively small area. We hope that, after a time, the area will be little more than three parishes. In many cases it will be no more than three parishes. The instructor will have a small compact area in which to operate. It is essential that he should reside in the area. In a very short space of time he should get to know every farmer and his system of farming. Thus he will achieve quietly and without any Americanism or bluster what the former Minister intended to achieve. There will be close contact between the individual instructor and the farmer. Responsibility rests to a considerable extent on the county committees of agriculture. They must be very active in ensuring that local instructors reside in their areas and keep in active and very close touch with every farmer in the area, not with the farmers who have big banking accounts, who look prosperous and can make a good show. It is more essential to keep in touch with the small farmer, the man with the big family that he is trying to support out of poor land. That is the man that the local agricultural instructor should keep in touch with and try to help in getting his land into better condition and better stocked. If that is done, extensive progress will be made.

There is no reason why, under this plan which the Minister is organising, local organisations such as Muintir na Tíre, Young Farmers' Clubs, the Countrywomen's Association and any other progressive local agricultural organisations should not co-operate with the local instructor. There is no reason why they should not invite the local instructor to their meetings and discuss problems with him. There is no no reason why he should not help them to eliminate inferior cows and to take advantage of any schemes that may be in operation.

In the case of the smaller farmer, the Minister should endeavour to see if something could be done as regards fertilisers. I have mentioned the position in regard to lime and the modification of the present lime scheme. There could be some provision for short-term credit at a low rate of interest for the purpose of providing manure and seeds. The best way to help the man who is in a difficult position is to help him to get his land into condition, to get at least one good crop. There is need for improvement in regard to short-term credit. The agricultural instructor may go to the type of farmer I have in mind and may tell him, having tested his land, that its fertility is very low and that he must put so many hundredweights or tons of fertiliser into it and must reseed certain fields. As the Minister pointed out, reseeding in certain cases may cost as much as £20 per acre. All that involves considerable expense. A doctor attended a sick farmer and left an expensive prescription. The sick man inquired if he had left any money along with it. The farmer who gets a prescription from the local instructor may have difficulty in carrying it out. Therefore there is need for improvement in the provision of short-term credit for that type of farmer.

Advisory service and agricultural education must be considered in conjunction with residential agricultural schools. As a member of a committee of agriculture, I know that farmers are often rather slow to take advantage of the scholarships provided for attendance at rural schools. That reluctance is due to a variety of causes. The son of a farmer or agricultural worker who is anxious to remain on the land will want to avail of services of that kind as early as possible but his services are very valuable on the farm and, having regard to present agricultural wages, his parents may be anxious to retain his services on the farm, perhaps in order to help in the education of younger members of the family. That may not be entirely fair to the particular boy. It should be impressed upon farmers that the young generation are entitled to the highest degree of education and technical training that can be given them so that they may become progressive farmers.

If a young boy is sent to an agricultural college where a large percentage of the pupils have no intention of becoming farmers, he is brought into contact with boys who are going on for a degree in agricultural science or for some job. On entering the school, he may be keen to become a farmer and he may leave that school at the end of the year with the idea of getting a job. Residential schools which are open to boys who intend to remain on the land should be confined exclusively to that type of pupil so that they will have the same outlook on life. These boys talk about their plans when they have finished their course, how soon they can get qualified and get a job, and so forth. I think it should be considered having schools which would be confined solely to intending farmers and agricultural labourers. With the increase that is taking place in the number of agricultural inspectors, I hope we will be able to have more continuous classes designed to teach agricultural subjects in every parish to young boys.

I would like the Minister to impress on the local committees of agriculture that every boy who leaves the primary school and who intends to remain on the land, be he a farmer or an agricultural labourer, should be given an opportunity of doing a course in a local agricultural class. No district should be overlooked. This may need a lot of organisation, but it is a necessity. I repeat that every farmer and agricultural labourer—who is a farmer with another name—should get an opportunity of doing an intensive course in agriculture. Even though the course may only be an evening one, it should be comprehensive. If the numbers interested in attending such a course are too small in a certain district to warrant the formation of a class, they should be amalgamated with those from another district. An effort should be made to reach every district. I am in agreement with the Minister's efforts to increase the number of agricultural instructors. He should follow up those efforts by trying to ensure that every one of those instructors is enthusiastic in promoting agricultural knowledge, development, experiment and research.

There is a decline in the beet acreage this year. To a certain extent, that decline is due to a certain amount of misunderstanding and misrepresentation that occurred at the time the price was being fixed. In the Carlow beet factory propaganda was circulated to the effect that the Beet Growers' Association had met the factory representatives and asked for a better price for the farmers. A price was offered which was accepted by a majority of one—the chairman's casting vote. That settlement was broadcast throughout the area, and when I heard it I resented it very much. I felt that the Beet Growers' Association had acted rather hastily when 50 per cent. of the members were against the decision, and that they should at least have held up their decision until the matter had been referred back to the growers. There was a complete misrepresentation of what happened in regard to the negotiations between the Irish Sugar Company and the Beet Growers' Association. What actually happened was that the Beet Growers' Association asked for an all-over increase of 7/- per ton. That is an all-over increase which cuts out the readjustment as between the pulp and the price of beet. They were offered an average increase of 11/-. To the average grower, that represents 4/-more than he asked. That information was not conveyed to the growers. Instead the position was misrepresented.

Who was responsible for not conveying information like that to the growers?

Those responsible were the representatives of the Beet Growers' Association on the executive of the association who voted against the price fixed. They represented almost half the members of the council of the Beet Growers' Association. They told the people that they voted against the price because it was inadequate, whereas the price offered was actually more than the one sought.

If an offer of 4/-more than was sought was made by the company, who was responsible for withholding information of that kind from the growers?

The people who circulated the reports which created a false impression.

If an offer was made by the company, somebody was responsibile in an authoritative way for conveying that offer to the growers.

Mr. Walsh

It was published in the papers.

The price was announced.

Now that we have been told that the offer was withheld from the growers, can we have an authoritative statement as to what exactly happened? Deputy Cogan does not seem to know what happened.

He is aware of what happened.

Mr. Walsh

Everyone in the country is aware of what happened.

Deputy Cogan has told Deputy Mulcahy what happened.

He has told me in a very slovenly and in a very vague way.

That is not unusual where Deputy Cogan is concerned.

I am telling exactly what happened. The Beet Growers' Association asked for an increase of 7/-. They were given an all round increase of 7/-. It is a varying increase. Instead of getting an increase in the price per ton, they were given a subsidy on the carriage of beet.

What about the extra 4/- mentioned by the Deputy?

They were given an increase——

An increase of 4/-?

Deputy Cogan should be allowed to proceed without interruption.

They were given an increase of 11/- as compared with last year, which was given by way of subsidy on the carriage of beet. Deputy Keane does not want Deputy Mulcahy to get a clear explanation of the position. Does Deputy Mulcahy not know that a new system of subsidising the carriage of beet was introduced this year? Is he not aware that that subsidy provides for the free transport of beet to the factory? In actual fact, that subsidy amounted to 4/6 in the case of suppliers living near the factory, as compared with last year, and almost 20/- in the case of suppliers very distant from the factory. Therefore, the people living near the factory did not get the 7/-increase which they asked, but the people living far away from the factory got almost 20/- of an increase. The average increase for the growers in the whole area was in or about 11/-.

Who were supposed to get the 4/- increase?

Mr. Walsh

That was the average for the whole area.

Surely Deputy Mulcahy understands the law of averages.

Eleven shillings average.

Eleven shillings is the average increase over last year. Has that sunk into your massive brain?

I think you are availing of a conversation at which I was present yesterday.

I have not discussed this question with anyone during the last six months. I think I am endeavouring to deal with this matter in a serious way because it is a rather serious problem. It is a very great pity that the position was misrepresented and misunderstood by a great number of decent, progressive growers throughout the country.

The Deputy's allegation was that this information was withheld from the growers.

Mr. Walsh

No.

That was the Deputy's allegation.

Mr. Walsh

It was misrepresented. There is no doubt about that, and, as a result, we are short 3,000 or 4,000 acres of beet.

Owing to the price.

Mr. Walsh

Due to the propaganda.

Of course, it was due to the price.

Deputy Cogan on the Estimate.

I have been trying to impress the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that this is a very great mistake. Propaganda of a very unjust type was used against people and, as a result, there was a serious decline in the acreage of beet this year.

What about the pulp?

I hope the matter will be better dealt with in the negotiations for the coming year. Deputy Keane referred to the pulp. The position in regard to the pulp is that the growers' association asked for an increase in the price of pulp to be offset, of course, by an increase in the price of beet. They thought that would be more equitable and just for various reasons.

What a terribly philanthropic institution to be associated with.

It is no use endeavouring to deal with a person who pretends to be stupid. Perhaps I should not say that the Deputy is stupid. The price of pulp was increased.

I am not as blank as you are.

The increase in the price of pulp was offset by an increase in the price of beet. The position, therefore, is exactly the same as it was. The only net increase in the price to the grower, as compared with the previous year, was in the subsidising of the transport of beet, which works out on an average at about 11/-. Some of the very members of the council of the Beet Growers' Association, who went about advising not to grow more than one acre of beet, and who grew only one acre in order to keep their names on the register of the Beet Growers' Association, were the very people who advocated that the price be increased not to 12/- or 12/6, as it was, but to 15/-. That fact cannot be denied. They asked the sugar company to increase the price of beet pulp to 15/-. They then had the audacity to protest at the way the unfortunate people were being treated. All that was misrepresentation. It was a very discreditable type of misrepresentation.

As far as I knew, I did not think that there was any political implications behind it but, as the matter developed, I began to see that there were. It was one of those things that was designed to discredit the existing Government and to upset their efforts to make this country self-supporting in regard to sugar. I hope this matter will be dealt with very efficiently in the coming year and that in respect of whatever price is agreed on between the growers' association and the factory, or whatever negotiations are carried on, the same opportunities for misrepresentation and misunderstanding will not arise.

It must be remembered that the campaign against the growing of beet had gained considerable ground before the Irish Sugar Company launched out with the publicity campaign to explain the true facts of the case in so far as they could. I hope and trust that, as a result of the friendly, frank and free negotiations between the growers' association and the factory a price will be fixed next year by agreement which will be satisfactory to all concerned, and that the facts in regard to any agreement entered into will not be misrepresented.

There is no doubt that the beet crop does not give a very big return to the man who has only an average yield. I hope that through the efforts of the advisers of the Department of Agriculture and the active co-operation of the local instructors working in conjunction with the advisers of the Irish Sugar Company we will succeed in overcoming the difficulties in regard to production so that we will bring our yield per acre up to over 11 tons per acre. If we can do that we will have what will be a very profitable crop for the farmer.

Sugar beet not only gives a valuable crop to the nation in so far as it provides employment and a valuable foodstuff in the way of sugar but it also provides additional feeding-stuffs on the farm. More important still, it leaves the soil in a cleaner, better and more fertile condition. Whatever is done in the future, I hope we will not have a campaign, based on falsehoods and misrepresentation, against the growing of sugar beet.

When the Minister introduced his Estimate last night, I thought we would have a harmonious discussion, avoiding all class of muck and dirt and that all the Estimates would be disposed of within the next week.

There are months still to go.

Deputy Dillon set a good headline, I must say. But we had a little contribution from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture who thought he had been maligned, blamed in the wrong or that he had been called an unworthy name. We then had a reply from the ex-Minister for Lands in the last Government which will not help the decorum with which this Estimate should be debated.

I have been listening to the most amazing amount of tripe for the last hour or two. We were told that we should do this and that and that the Department should do this and the Minister should do that. Now we have been told about the black pig and that the Department should examine the possibilities of discovering some more suitable breed to cross with the Large White York. Anybody with any sense of responsibility should impress upon the farmers in areas where black pigs are being reared the necessity for eradicating the black pig immediately and producing a pig whose bacon will be acceptable to consumers. Anyone who knows anything about pigs knows that the Large White York is the most suitable. Deputy Cogan is supposed to be a farmers' candidate. Yet he talked about reintroducing the black pig or some other breed in this country.

On a point of order. The Deputy stated that I said the black pig should be introduced. I said nothing of the kind. As a matter of fact I said the direct opposite, that we should eradicate it.

I am sorry if I have misrepresented Deputy Cogan but he made such a number of suggestions to the Department that I would not be surprised if some of those hard-skulled individuals would not misrepresent him also. Perhaps I have done a good day's work in preventing the Department from looking for this wonder pig we are to produce in this country. I say stick to the Large White York with the long side and both producer and consumer will be satisfied.

There is a widow living in my town whose son was an agricultural worker. He was dissatisfied with his avocation in life and decided to join the Army. Incidentally, he was a loss to the neighbourhood as he was a very good worker. After a period of 12 months he wrote to his mother and told her that if she would be in a certain place on a certain day he would be passing through with his regiment and she could meet him. She went there and met him and they had a reunion that night. Discussing the matter later with some neighbours, she was loud in her praise of the fine lot of lads she saw, but, she said, "I was very sorry to see that they were all out of step but my Paddy." Fine Gael got out of step with Deputy Cogan, Fianna Fáil are getting out of step with Deputy Cogan, the inter-Party Government were out of step with Deputy Cogan. Incidentally, I am afraid that Deputy Dillon will become an obsession with Deputy Cogan before he is finished. I do not remember how many times Deputy Cogan mentioned him, but it looked as if his contribution was on Deputy Dillon and not on agriculture.

I know that the Minister when on this side of the House took the Deputy very seriously when he suggested some fantastic schemes, but they were dropped very quickly when he assumed the responsibility of office. I am sure the Minister will not fall for the act which Deputy Cogan has been putting on here with his nicely modulated voice. We got a certain amount about agriculture from him but we got 90 per cent. of tripe.

I should like to know if the Minister intends to amend the Agricultural Workers (Half-holiday) Act which was passed by the inter-Party Government. As representing the agricultural community, he should do that, because if inducements are not held out to the agricultural workers, the drift from the land will continue. Until all the amenities which town and city workers are enjoying are extended to agricultural workers, the drift from the land will continue.

Mr. Walsh

It has been introduced.

The Minister should use his influence with the Minister for Local Government to have the operations under the Local Authorities (Works) Act extended. There is no doubt that the work done under that Act did a lot of good to the countryside; a substantial amount of land was reclaimed and made arable.

The Minister is not responsible for the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

He is responsible for agriculture.

He is not responsible for the Local Authorities (Works) Act, and it must not be discussed on this Estimate.

I am only asking him to use his authority on behalf of agriculture. With all due respect to you, Sir, I think I am entitled to ask the Minister for Agriculture to request the Minister for Local Government to carry on with the Local Authorities (Works) Act as far as work on small rivers is concerned, where farmers on both sides of those rivers are benefiting.

Having asked the Minister, the Deputy might pass on to the Estimate.

There was very good work done under that Act on land bordering rivers.

The Minister is not responsible.

Then we will come to something for which he is responsible. I should like to refer to his promises before the election with regard to the price of milk. I am not confirming Deputy Dillon's statement that the Minister promised that the price would be raised to 1/9 per gallon, but I have a hazy recollection that he mentioned 1/6.

Mr. Walsh

Yes, you are on the right track now.

As a practical farmer I am sure the Minister probably had costings of his own at the time, that he did not make public statements just for the sake of exploitation. I do not believe a man in his position would do that. I am sure he carried out some little experiments. I know of the experiments he carried out since he went to Merrion Street—the Mitchelstown one. Recently Mr. Barry, Secretary I.C.M.S. seemed to be very annoyed with something that the Minister said. Since Mr. Barry took on the responsibility of a member of the Costings Commission a paper has been issued and in its first edition it gives the result of the costings carried out by the Mitchelstown creamery at 1/6 per gallon. It mentions one farmer who had a herd of cows producing on an average 800 gallons of milk a year and that through having such a good yield his costings were more. That is not a very good start off by people who are to be responsible for the costings experiment in this country under the ægis of the Minister. Surely the farmer with an average 800 gallons yield produced milk more economically than farmers with only a 480 gallon average and whose cost of production was 11.94 pence. Mr. Barry should know very well, as well as the vice-chairman who is also on the Costings Commission, that 480 gallons was the average for the cows at Mitchelstown and that 11.94 pence was the average cost. The Minister should let the people know the exact costings in connection with the Mitchelstown creamery. I have a certain amount of sympathy with the Minister, but I have no doubt that the increase of one penny in the price of milk was given as a matter of political expediency when he took over the office of the Minister for Agriculture. If such was not the reason the Minister when a Deputy deliberately led his constituents astray by giving 1/6 or 1/7 a gallon which could only be a national figure.

I am very glad that the Minister referred last night to the success of the land rehabilitation scheme. Undoubtedly, according to the statistics given to us by him, that scheme is going on, as the old saying has it, like a house on fire. It is a good man who will carry on another man's idea. I do not give a hoot who started this scheme. The proof of a man's honesty is that he is willing to carry on anything that he believes to be a success even though it has been initiated by some other man. If the people are going to benefit by that plan, it is immaterial who initiates it or completes it. The chief consideration is that the plan is being carried out in such a way as that the agricultural community will derive very substantial benefit from it.

In regard to the question of fencing under that scheme, I took the matter up with the officer in charge and I suggested that oak posts, properly treated with cresote, were very nearly as substantial as concrete posts. Their life would be anything from 20 to 40 years, if they were properly treated with creosote. There would be a very substantial reduction in the cost of fencing some farms where oak stakes are available if such stakes were used in preference to concrete stakes and I think that the Minister should give consideration to that. I do not want him to accept it as a general rule for I recognise that every herring must hang by its own tail, but such an arrangement would afford relief to many people who may not be able to afford concrete posts or who may not be in a position to get them made. Perhaps the Minister, in his charity, will make some reference to that matter when replying.

Since my advent to this House, I have always prefaced my remarks on the Estimate for Agriculture by saying that the whole key-note to the agricultural economy of this country is production. "P" is the operative letter and "production" is the operative word. I am very glad to see that, so far as milk yields at the moment are concerned, the Minister is carrying out an intensive effort to produce a better type of dairy cow which of course will eventually mean an increase in milk yields. The figures read out by Deputy Cogan, in one of the most creditable parts of his contribution, to my mind, to this debate, gave the comparison between Denmark and Ireland. I believe that if the Minister will continue the various insemination centres he has set up, perhaps in the foreseeable future we may have the cow with the 500 gallon yield and, mind you, that would not be too bad. Six hundred gallons is excellent but 500 would not be too bad either and I should like to have a 700 gallon yield if we could manage it. I believe that by perseverance and initiative there is every possibility that we can produce a cow here that will average 500 to 600 gallons. That would mean an increase of 200 gallons on the average yield of the moment.

I mentioned here when Deputy Dillon was in office—I think it was on the Supplementary Estimate—the necessity of establishing a veterinary service for dairying centres. I am still of the same mind as I was in that regard three or four years ago. I believe that a veterinary service is complementary to the success of any plan you put into operation. You may call it a parish plan, a Muintir na Tíre plan, a Dillon plan, a Walsh plan or any other plan. I believe that where you have a big dairying centre, you must have a veterinary service somewhat on the same lines as the dispensary services are operated for human beings at the moment. That is of vital importance. We have, unfortunately, a very heavy mortality list in calves and, without making any direct allegation, I think I can say that I believe a lot of that is due to the treatment of the calves immediately after calving, and perhaps to failure to have them injected against black-quarter and the various other diseases they get when they go out on after-grass. I am sure that the majority of the casualties take place between these periods. As Deputy Dillon pointed out, it means on a conservative basis £2,500,000 for this country every year. I am sure that a great many of these calves could be saved if proper veterinary attention were available. Most of them unfortunately belong to the small farmers—the four, five, six or seven-cow farmer. He finds it very hard to employ a veterinary surgeon. I believe that the Minister should give every consideration to the setting up of these services in dairy centres.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again this afternoon.
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