Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Oct 1952

Vol. 134 No. 1

Leinster House Incident.

An Ceann Comhairle

In connection with the incident between Senator Quirke and Deputy Dillon which took place in the precincts of the House on 24th July last, and concerning which complaint was made by Deputy J.A. Costello in the Dáil on that day, I have to inform the Dáil that I communicated the terms of the complaint to the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad. The following reply was received:—

"Ceann Comhairle:

Fuaireas do theachtaireacht faoi dháta an 25ú Iúil, 1952, i dtaobh an ionsaí a rinne an Seanadóir L. Ó Cuirc ar an Teachta Séamas Diolún, Déardaoin, an 24 ú Iúil, laistigh de mhaighin Dáil Éireann agus i dtaobh an tsáruithe a bhí ansin ar phribhléidí na Dála.

Tá orm a chur in iúl duit gur ghabh an Seanadóir, Ó Cuirc a leithscéal mar leanas leis an Seanad i rith suí an Tí inniu, an Chéadaoin, an 30ú Iúil:—

I wish to express my regret for having assaulted Deputy James M. Dillon in the precincts of the Houses of the Oireachtas and apologise to the Seanad for any reflection on its good name caused by my action. At the same time I extend my apologies to the Dáil for my conduct towards a member of that House and I trust that the good relations which have at all times existed between the two Houses will not be in any way impaired in consequence.

Tar éis éisteacht le leithscéal an tSeanadóra rith an Seanad an rún seo a leanas:—

That the Seanad accepts Senator Quirke's apology and requests the Cathaoirleach to transmit its terms to the Dáil and to express the regret of the Seanad that the incident has taken place and the hope that the harmonious relations that have existed between the two Houses may not, in any way, be disturbed.

Tá orm a iarraidh ort brí an leithscéal agus rún Sheanad Éireann a chur in iúl do Dháil Éireann.

(Sínithe) Liam Ó Buachalla,

Cathaoirleach.

30ú Iúil, 1952."

Mr. Dillon

So what? I would like to inquire from the Ceann Comhairle what steps he proposes to take to prevent the continued prosecution of what is a careful Fianna Fáil organised conspiracy?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will, perhaps, limit himself to the incident.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, sir. I say the incident referred to is the fifth assault on Deputies of this House by members of the Fianna Fáil Party. I want the Ceann Comhairle to tell the Seanad that we do not give two fiddle-de-dees for their pious observations and that we intend to take measures in this building to restrain Senators or others who go rambling through our corridors looking for drink and fight. The only way to do that is to request the Commissioner of the Garda to take the same precautions in the corridors here as he takes at the North Wall, and that is to provide a sufficient number of Guards to restrain violent individuals who seek to disturb the peace of these premises.

Now, Sir, it is you, the Ceann Comhairle, who, I submit to you, is responsible for the decencies being observed in this House. If the Senators cannot behave themselves I suggest you should throw the Seanad out and let them get their own place. If the Fianna Fáil Deputies will not behave themselves I suggest that you get a sufficient number of Guards in order to ensure that they will be thrown in the Bridewell until they sober up and conduct themselves. I am suggesting——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy wanted to put a question, I understood, asking what had been done. I have given some consideration to the matter and so have officials of the Dáil. They have given a good deal of consideration to this matter. As the Deputy knows, we are not in complete control of all the building. The Ceann Comhairle has no control except over the Chamber. I endeavoured to make that clear on the occasion on which the regrettable incidents occurred— that I could not deal with matters that did not arise within the Chamber. I made that as clear as I could. That is my understanding of the position at the moment. Regarding the passages and the corridors and other such places, the Ceann Comhairle has not any control. I was endeavouring, with the expert advice that I can obtain from the officials, to see what could be done.

There is, as Deputy Dillon knows, a motion on the Order Paper which sets out a certain procedure by which that desirable object might be achieved. I suggest that the position ought not to be prejudiced until some attempt is made, through the machinery of that motion, to achieve that object.

Mr. Dillon

May I submit that we want no motion to tell us how we ought to behave ourselves in civilised society? If I go down to the purlieus of the back of the North Wall without proper police protection, I am looking for a back eye, but I am entitled to assume that in the precincts of Oireachtas Éireann conduct appropriate to the purlieus of the back of the North Wall will not be practised. If the Fianna Fáil Party want to introduce into this building, the conduct——

Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland)

The language used here you would not hear in the North Wall.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Whiskey tester.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order! I do not think the Deputy is improving the position by continuing the discussion until such time as an opportunity will be given to say what the machinery of this motion can do. I quite agree that decent conduct ought to be innate in everybody, whether it is a member of the Dáil or a member of the Seanad and in the vast majority of Deputies and Senators that conception of decency exists.

Mr. Morrissey

Has existed for 30 years.

An Ceann Comhairle

Until such time as the effect of that motion is tried out and we have some concrete motion put before us——

Mr. J.A. Costello

I do not want to interrupt you, Sir, but it seems to me that your remarks are assuming that that motion will be passed. Apparently, you have overlooked the fact that I gave most specific assurance that, so far as we were concerned, we would do everything in our power to prevent that motion being passed because it seemed to us——

Mr. Lemass

If you do not want rules, stop grousing about their absence.

Mr. J.A. Costello

This remark will be peculiarly applicable to the Tánaiste — it is the dictatorship of the majority that is enshrined in that motion. Dictatorial methods are very dear to the heart of the Tánaiste. It appeared to me, when you used the words "when the machinery of the motion shall be tried out", that the words assume that the motion will be passed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Tried out as to what the Dáil will do with the motion.

Captain Cowan

May I suggest, starting a new session, that we would forget all the nonsense of the last?

Mr. Dillon

I am not in the least interested in tripe of that kind. The same Deputy and his colleagues on the Fianna Fáil Benches, if it suited their hands, would start the same conduct to-morrow. My interest is, if the Ceann Comhairle cannot in his authority control the place, whether the Garda will be installed to deal with the type of people who frequent this building? Otherwise, no civilised citizen will be able to move about in it. The only way you can deal with the itinerant drunk is to throw him in the Bridewell until he makes up his mind to abide by the law. All I am asking is that in Dáil Éireann, as elsewhere in the City of Dublin, if people go rambling about looking for drink and fight, they will be thrown into the Bridewell until they cool off. I want nothing else — no undertaking from Fianna Fáil. They are not worth the breath used on them. I want such deployment of the resources of the community as to ensure that the minimal standards appropriate to the purlieus of the North Wall will at least be maintained in the precincts of Oireachtas Éireann—nothing more.

Mr. Byrne

I think Deputy Dillon is not being altogether fair to the North Wall. If a man at the North Wall was about to strike a person he would give due notice.

Mr. MacBride

Arising out of the questions that have been discussed I would like, a Cheann Comhairle, to make this suggestion, which I hope will prove acceptable: that you, with the assistance of officials of this House, should consider the position carefully and make proposals as to how best to reach the ends we are all desirous of reaching. If a proposals is introduced by either side of the House to deal with the question it will naturally be received with a certain degree of suspicion and Party feeling. Perhaps you, in conjunction with officers having long experience of this House, could examine the position with a view to formulating proposals to the House to deal with the unfortunate incidents which have arisen, and which we trust will not recur.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies will understand that two Houses are concerned—the Seanad and Dáil Éireann. Of ourselves we cannot impose rules and regulations upon the Seanad.

Mr. Dillon

We can throw them out.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a matter that must be approached in a sensible and discreet fashion. I suggest that the matter should again be submitted to the Committee of Procedure and Privileges to see what rules or regulations they can frame or suggest that would meet the unfortunate difficulties that arose.

Mr. O. Flanagan

Might I suggest, a Cheann Comhairle, that you give careful consideration to the question of the closing down of the bar on this premises? There would then be less drunks looking for trouble.

Captain Cowan

That is a black-guardly statement.