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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Oct 1952

Vol. 134 No. 1

Private Deputies' Business. - Public Authorities (Judicial Proceedings) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

I move the Second Reading of this Bill. The Public Authorities Protection Act first saw the light 50 years ago in the House of Lords on March 3rd, 1892. The purpose of the Bill now before Dáil Éireann is to repeal that Act in toto. On March 3rd, 1892, Lord Halsbury, who was the Lord Chancellor in Lord Salisbury's last administration, and probably one of the most incompetent Chancellors who ever sat upon the Woolsack, introduced a Bill the Long Title of which was as follows:—

"An Act to Generalise and Amend certain Statutory Provisions for the Protection of Persons acting in the execution of statutory and other public duties."

The story of that enactment in Parliament must be one of the strangest that has ever disgraced a Legislature, and the record of injustice wrought under the provisions of this statute exemplified the axiom that a tree can be judged by its fruits.

Lord Halsbury presented the original Bill to the House of Lords with a memorandum of great length which manifestly neither he nor anybody else had ever read because by the time the final version of the Bill which he had produced reached the Statute Book it actually enacted what it was designed to repeal—I refer to the clause relating to penal costs—and, though it was described as applying to the United Kingdom, it subsequently transpired that its application in Ireland was questionable and in Scotland impossible.

The story of its progress under the guidance of Lord Halsbury in the House of Lords and the Attorney-General, Sir Richard Webster, in the House of Commons briefly is as follows: Lord Halsbury certified to the House of Lords that the Bill was substantially a statute law revision Bill and that it did no more than substitute uniform procedure for irrationally varied procedure in approximately 100 British Acts of Parliament, and on this assurance the House of Lords gave the Bill a Second Reading and sent it to a Committee of the whole House, from which it was reported without amendment and recommitted to the Standing Committee. At this stage, Lord Halsbury had second thoughts and inserted the famous, or infamous, section entitling a public authority who was a successful defendant in proceedings governed by the Act to recover from the plaintiff solicitor and client costs.

Lord Dudley secured the adoption of an amendment in the Standing Committee, which on further reflection their lordships decided to delete on the Report Stage, on the understanding that Lord Halsbury would introduce words to effect the object which the Lord of Dudley had in view.

It is relevant to mention here that one of the original purposes of the Bill as introduced was to repeal all special provisions in Public General Acts as to costs. The consequence of Lord Halsbury's amendment was not only to re-enact a special provision in regard to costs, but to extend this provision to all public authorities, and the consequences of this omnibus procedure have drawn from the judiciary comments during the last 50 years which have to be read to be believed. Lord Salvesen, in the case of Eadie v. Glasgow Corporation, reported in 1916 in the Sessions Cases, which are Scottish Reports, Volume 163, said:—

"I agree with your lordships reluctantly, because as I have taken occasion to say whenever this Act has come under my notice, I think it creates a monstrous injustice that a wealthy corporation should be entitled to hold in terrorem over any person who litigates with them the risk that he may be subjected not merely to expenses as between party and party, but to whatever expenses the corporation may choose to incur as between agent and client.”

The Bill, as amended, was sent to the House of Commons on June 20th, 1892, and strange as it may seem, its text as submitted to the House of Commons was curiously different from the text which had left the House of Lords. Certain new words had been inserted and others had been left out. The number of English Acts repealed had grown from 101 to 103, and the Bill had the unique feature in Clause 1 of having two separate sub-clauses described as (d).

Mr. Morton M.P. queried the Bill on the ground that he suspected anything that originated in the House of Lords, though this was regarded by the Speaker as savouring of impropriety, and Sir Walter Webster, the Attorney-General, assured the House that "the Bill is simply a Consolidation Bill to simplify the law."

However, when the Committee Stage was reached on the 21st June, Mr. Fowler, M.P. expressed anxiety, and the Attorney-General reiterated his assurances but said that if the Rt. Hon. gentleman wished to have time to look into it he would not press the Bill that night. But before the matter could be brought to the attention of the House of Commons again, Lord Salisbury had resigned, a general election had taken place, and on August 18, 1892, Mr. Gladstone became Prime Minister and appointed Lord Hershell to the Woolsack.

Lord Hershell, it may be said in parenthesis, was a relatively competent Lord Chancellor, but he followed in the unfortunate footsteps of his grossly incompetent predecessor. On February 6th, 1893, Lord Hershell introduced a new Bill which is the Public Authorities Protection Act as we now know it. He determined to be as expeditious and as reassuring as his incompetent predecessor, Lord Halsbury, had been, and, in addition to assuring the House that it was substantially a consolidating measure, he added that it had passed both Houses, during the last Parliament. That statement was quite untrue, but, doubtless, it was due to an oversight on the part of Lord Hershell.

The proceedings then seem to have grown even more confused, because the Journal of the House of Lords records the insertion of certain amendments by Lord Ashbourne and by the Lord Chancellor himself, but goes on to say that further amendments were made— and to this day no one seems to know what they were or who made them. That is the interesting part of it. There is no record of what these amendments were and there is no record of who moved them or how they were made, beyond the insertion of the note that other amendments were made.

However, when the Bill turned up at the House of Commons on March 21st, someone had discovered that the new Bill had inherited from its predecessor the strange characteristic of having its two sub-clauses lettered (d) and this blemish had been removed by their lordships.

Surprisingly, the number of statutes had increased, no one knows how, from 103 to 108. It was thought that Lord Ashbourne had a hand in it, but apparently the Scottish peers were on holiday, for no trace of their hand could be discerned upon the Bill.

On September 11th, Mr. Marjoribanks, Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, presented the Bill to the House of Commons, and "hoped there would be no objection to it, as it was a useful and necessary codification of laws existing".

Mr. T.W. Russell, M.P., who afterwards presided over the Department of Agriculture in Ireland, asked if this were not a new law. Mr. Marjoribanks said "No". Mr. T.H. Bolton, M.P., asked if it was entirely codification. Mr. Marjoribanks replied "Yes". Mr. Bolton was not so easily to be put down and is on record as saying "Entirely?" in an interrogative fashion, to which Mr. Marjoribanks cheerfully replied "Entirely" in an affirmative tone. Whereupon the Bill was read a Second Time.

When the Bill came up in Committee, it had a sponsor of no less a person than Sir William Harcourt, and he said that he understood it was—but Hansard recalls that nobody seemed to know quite what he said, but it was thought he said—it was a Bill to consolidate certain Acts and secure uniformity. Two amendments were inserted, one exempting any proceedings by any Department of the Government against any local authority or officer of local authority, the other declaring that the Act would not apply to Scotland—the Scottish members of Parliament having apparently been more diligent than the Scottish peers had been. This latter amendment declaring that it would not apply to Scotland was so hastily drafted that its results have been unforeseen and unforeseeable, and until the Act was later amended in Great Britain it continued to cause confusion and even, perhaps, miscarriage of justice in the Scottish courts.

The present position is that if any citizen brings an action against a public authority for damages, his or her action fails unless it has been started within six months of the act which caused the damage; and if the action fails, the unsuccessful plaintiff has to pay solicitor and client instead of party and party costs.

"A public authority" may mean a great many things. It may mean a county council, it may mean a dispensary doctor, it may mean a sheriff's bailiff, a Government Department or a host of other parties. A danger grows in our time, with the development of a number of quasi-Government companies, that judicial decision may hereafter add to the category of "persons" who may properly be described as public authorities a wholly unforeseen regimet of "persons" who would enjoy the benefit of this preposterous Act of Parliament.

Remember that any public body, so called, that enjoys the benefit of this Act enjoys the privileged position of a public authority against every private citizen. What is the nature of that privilege enjoyed by the public authority? If the public authority is acting in the discharge of a public duty, that public duty is owed to the plaintiff in common with the rest of the public, but the Public Authorities Protection Act applies and the public authority enjoys its protection as against the private citizen. So that, not only is the public authority immune from proceedings unless they have been started within six months of the act complained of, but also, if for any reason it appears that the plaintiff cannot succeed in his action, he may be required to pay the successful defendant public authority exceptionally heavy costs.

Over the years a great many judicial decisions have been given in cases where the Public Authorities Protection Act was pleaded by the defendant, and it would appear from the cumulative effect of these decisions that it is not by any means impossible now that a citizen might lose his right to take action for damages done to him by the act of a public authority before the citizen himself knew that a right of action existed, and this possibility was dwelt upon by Lord Justice Atkin in the case of Huyton Gas Company v. Liverpool Corporation in 1926. when he said:—

"If an act is done which subsequently causes damage, it appears to me that ‘the act complained of' in an action is the act, not the damage; and that the damage is the legal justification for complaining of the act. This form of words leads to the possibility that a person may lose his right of action before ever he has acquired it, as where damage is the gist of the action and only occurs more than six months from the date of the act complained of."

Cases have been known where aggrieved citizens have negotiated with a public authority and the negotiations continued for more than six months and then broke down, whereupon the aggrieved citizen discovered that he was debarred from suing the local authority under the provisions of the Public Authorities Protection Act, although negotiations had been begun well within the six months referred to in the Act.

This conclusion was established in Carey's case, where Lord Halsbury delivered the judgment, and appears to be the only judge who ever expressed the opinion from the Bench that "the language of section 1 of the Public Authorities Protection Act is reasonably plain and it is manifest that ‘continuance of injury or damage' means the continuance of the act which caused the damage".

This is not surprising, as Lord Halsbury was himself the original author of the Act, the ambiguity and unsatisfactory character of which has been the subject of comment ever since it was first introduced in the House of Lords 50 years ago.

As late as 1926, Lord Justice Scrutton commented in Huyton & Robey Gas Company v. Liverpool Corporation (1926): "If time runs from the act this leads to the startling result that you may lose a cause of action before you have got it."

The provision as to punitive costs has been commented upon eloquently by Lord Salvesen in Eadie v. Glasgow Corporation (1916), when he said:—

"I have taken occasion to say whenever this Act has come under my notice, I think it creates a monstrous injustice—that a wealthy corporation should be entitled to hold in terrorem over any person who litigates with them the risk that he may be subjected not merely to expenses as between party and party, but to whatever expenses the corporation may choose to incur as between agent and client, and that, I suppose, irrespective of the fact that the corporation has the services of the town clerk, who undertakes this work for a salary, with the result that the award of expenses goes, not to pay for the litigation, but to reduce the other expenses of the corporation by being credited to the general fee fund. I have never been able to understand the policy of the statute. The ordinary expenses of litigation are quite sufficient to deter responsible people from engaging in reckless litigation against a wealthy corporation, and actions by persons who are of no substance will not be diminished in number by the risk of the litigants being subjected to expenses between agent and client, because they litigate with an absolute sense of freedom from responsibility.”

In these circumstances, I am submitting to Oireachtas Éireann that this Act should be repealed, and that a new situation should be created in which all public authorities will stand in respect of their torts vis-a-vis the rest of the community in exactly the same position as an ordinary citizen, enjoying no greater nor lesser privilege than anybody else. It will be for public authorities themselves to make the case hereafter on the merits, if they wish the Legislature to confer upon them a privileged position before the law which nobody else enjoys.

It is a good thing in any free community that there should be an independent judiciary, at whose bar of justice, all persons, great and small. may meet on a basis of equality to have their just claim enforced and their rights protected. It is the purpose of the Bill which I now submit to Oireachtas Éireann to establish this principle in Ireland.

I want to warn the House against a particular danger. I trust the Minister will not think me guilty of any discourtesy because I inquired of the Chief Government Whip what the Government's attitude would be. The Minister was good enough to let me know in broad outline what his view of the situation was. It did not entirely deviate from my point of view nor did it entirely coincide with the proposals that I was submitting to the House, but I do want to suggest to the Minister and to the House that we would be quite mistaken if we allowed our judgment to be unduly influenced by the measures adopted in the British House of Commons to remedy the situation created by the Public Authorities Protection Act 50 years ago.

About 12 years ago or more legislation was introduced into the British House of Commons to amend the original Act. Under the amendment I think the public authority in England now has either a year or two years in which its liability continues, but I am going to submit to the House that that amendment by the British Legislature was the fruit of an uneasy compromise devised to placate a very powerful vested interest in Great Britain which was acrimoniously represented on the floor of the House of Commons, which is the Municipal Bodies' Protection Association representative of all corporations and town councils and similar bodies in England, Scotland and Wales who were, not unnaturally, most anxious to preserve this unreasonable privileged position vis-a-vis the ordinary citizen.

A long and acrimonious debate took place and members of Parliament on every side of the House pressed on the Attorney-General that he should accept amendments designed to repeal the Public Authorities Protection Act altogether. Under pressure from the municipal authorities in England he found himself unable to go that far, although, from close perusal of the debate, I could find no point of principle taken by the Government of the day in defence of the old Public Authorities Act of 1892.

The House may be interested to know that the original Act of 1892 or 1893, having been passed on the representations that it was a mere codifying Act, nobody appeared for the first three or four years, to be aware of the extraordinary privilege that it conferred on corporations and local authorities until a malignant town clerk in Dundee suddenly adverted to the persecution that he could operate on his neighbours by the use of this piece of legislation.

There are those who suggest that he got at Lord Halsbury through Lord Dunedin, who was a "butty" of his, and that he fooled Lord Halsbury and the rest and, having lain "doggo" for two or three years after the Act of Parliament was passed, he proceeded to use it and it was only then that municipalities in Great Britain and in Ireland woke up to the fact that they had had conferred upon them by this statute a privilege which they had never heretofore enjoyed and the nature of which Parliament never understood. Since then it has been invoked more and more and I think there is a Scotch case now in existence where an obiter dictum from the Bench suggests that, even where the officers of the local authority feel that equity demands that this defence should not be raised, they have a duty to raise it and that they must plead it whether they think it is equitable to do so or not.

It is alleged that a resourceful town clerk of Dundee used to engage litigants in benevolent negotiations and keep them negotiating for six months, and then laugh heartily at them when the proceedings were instituted. If Deputies are interested in the details of that story, I must refer them to the speech of Mr. McQuisten, M.P., in the British House of Commons in 1938, when the amending legislation was being enacted. It is a pretty story. He says he knew the town clerk of Dundee when he was a very small boy, and that he was even an office boy to the town clerk. "You pays your money and you takes your choice." If Mr. McQuisten's story be true, we will not be surprised at the nature of the enactment. Certainly a study of the procedure by which the Bill was railroaded through the British House of Commons will, I think, make it manifest to everybody that nobody in the House of Lords or the House of Commons knew what the Bill was about. I think it was passed on false pretences, and that it was brought in originally to abolish the whole system of punitive costs, and wound up by making what had never been law before, the system of punitive costs applicable to all actions of tort.

I can see that it will be difficult for Deputies to believe that the story of this enactment is as I described it. I think there is available to anyone who wishes to check it abundant evidence to prove that the story I have recited is true. The Act is disreputable in its history. Its enactment was clearly an error of judgment and its effects were never intended by the Legislature which enacted it. It has created a vested interest that should never have been created. All I am asking Oireachtas Éireann to do is to put our local authorities and public bodies in exactly the same position as any individual citizen or any limited liability company or any other persons known to the law; to leave local authorities subject to the same Statutes of Limitation as apply to the rest, and from that point of departure that all will be equal before the law

If public authorities have a case to make—and I do not think they have— for a special Statute of Limitation restricting citizens' right of action against them, let them make it. Oireachtas Éireann can consider the case they make on its merits. But, until public authorities successfully do that, I suggest to the House that Oireachtas Éireann should do no more than this: put public authorities in the same position before the law as any other person in Ireland, put no penalty on them, but do not confirm any improper privilege which they at present enjoy.

I ask the House to bear in mind that the principal sufferers under the existing statute are people who have been in the employment of public authorities and have suffered an injury, the full consequences of which do not manifest themselves for some months after the injury has been done, or somebody whose property has been injured and the consequences of the Act which did the injury have not manifested themselves for eight or nine months after the act causing the injury was done when such persons have no right of action against the public authority at all.

That this may be made abundantly clear, let me conclude with two types of cases which constitute a very grave injustice and which this Bill is designed to put an end to. A man works for a public authority and sustains an injury. Perhaps he hits his knee or strikes his elbow. No immediate evil consequences emerge, but nine or ten months later arthritis develops which good medical opinion attributes to the injury he has received. He sues the authority, and even if it transpires that the damage from which he is then suffering, the cripplement which he is then suffering, is attributable to a blow received from a vehicle managed by the local authority seven or eight or nine months before, he finds that he has no right of action against anybody and that he is obliged to suffer.

The other type of case is the case of a person whose property, say, adjoins a public road and as the result of some carelessness on the part of a local authority damage is done to the foundations of his house on the 1st March. The damage done to the foundations of his house does not extend to the fabric of the house, say, until September or October following. When it manifests itself in the fabric of the house, a contractor is called in and tells the householder that his house is in a more serious condition than was thought at first. He traces the crack in the wall or whatever it may be to its source and discovers it to be in the foundations and says, "This has been done as a result of a very heavy vehicle which was too heavy for the roads passing or re-passing unduly frequently adjoining your premises." Then it transpires that the local authority had heavy vehicles in that area and used the road in the vicinity of the house to excess or in some circumstances so used the adjoining road as to shake the foundations of the house. Although that man's house falls down, even though it is admittedly due to the injury done to the foundations of the house nine months before by the local authority, the local authority is obliged to plead the Public Authorities Protection Act. The fact that the man brought the action the moment he perceived the damage is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the action was instituted more than six months after the act of the local authority which ultimately resulted in the damage complained of, and that non-suits him. He has no remedy against anybody.

I exhort Oireachtas Éireann to set an example to legislatures everywhere and, where it is possible to undo injustice to the humblest of its citizens, expeditiously and effectively, we should not be restrained by red tape or bureaucracy, or undue caution from remedying injustice no matter how humble its victim may be. To a labouring man or to the tenant of the humblest cottage in this country the loss of his health to one or of his home to another is as great a tragedy as the collapse of a palace or the decline of the strongest and healthiest amongst us. We ought not to stand by paralysed by the venerable character of a fraudulent statute under which that situation has been created which debars us from action. We have the power and I am suggesting to this House we have the duty to put right what is now wrong, and in doing that we do not in the least diminish our ability to add to our Statute Book any statute that it appears to us proper to put down, giving to local authorities any special position we think is equitable and just to give them if and when they make the case that the public weal demands that they should be so privileged. All I am asking is that public authorities be put in the same position as every other citizen under the law and that nobody, public or private, shall be accorded a position of privilege unless and until he has made a case before this Oireachtas that it is in the interest of public weal that he should have privileges that his neighbours do not enjoy.

I would like to second this motion. I reserve my right to speak later on.

Major de Valera

Anybody who has had any practice in dealing in any capacity with this Act will feel that some amendment, at any rate, is necessary. I must confess that I am to this extent in agreement with Deputy Dillon. I have always found it very hard to see what was sufficient justification for the enactment as it stands in the Statute Book. Anybody who has had any dealings with the matter in court—and particularly solicitors who are the people really concerned with this Act in the first instance very often as it is an inevitable problem for them if there is any question of action involving a public authority at all—will realise that the Act as it stands is both dangerous and has in fact worked a number of injustices. The question is not so much whether it should be amended. I think we all agree on that. The question is whether it should be obliterated or whether there is any degree of protection needed for a public authority in this matter at all.

Deputy Dillon has gone into some detail about the Act and he stressed the question of costs which is important enough. However, I think that the reason why the matter crops up frequently, where people are most confronted with it, is in regard to the first part of the enactment, the time limit. This is the matter which really causes trouble and although I am going to repeat some of what Deputy Dillon said I am doing it more from the point of view of trying to make a nett summary of this point rather than trying to reiterate what he said. The point is this. Is there justification for an enactment which specifies that a public authority must be sued for its act of neglect or default within six months of that act of neglect or default, and if it is not sued within that period, is it right that the public authority should be completely immune from action? Under the interpretation of that Act as I understand it you must sue within six months of the ceasing of that act of neglect or default whether that is simply a single act of neglect or default or whether it is a continuing process. The public authority must be sued within that period, and I think that the Leader of the Opposition was one of the leading counsel in the case that decided that here in this country.

It went very much further than that.

Major de Valera

I know it did but that is, so to speak, the guts of it. Is that a fair position to have? Actually as I recall the case it was a case where a county council were repairing a road; a steamroller caused some change in the ground surrounding a house and damaged the foundation or the ground upon which the house was lying. The damage did not become apparent for a matter of some years afterwards but the actual act which occasioned that damage had ceased long before the damage became apparent. The first time the plaitiff had any idea that he had anything to sue about at all he was too late within the terms of the Act to succeed. That is as I understand the case in a very broad way. Is that a fair type of situation to have? Is there any justification for it? Frankly I think there is not. I have known a case where that same section has been the cause of actions never being brought, people consulting a solicitor too late and on taking advice, finding they had wakened up to their cause of action too late and that in fact they could not even take the initial steps. In that way many actions which should have been laid against the public authority have, in fact, not been brought and the person injured has been left without redress. I think many practitioners on both sides of the profession have had that experience and for the residue all we have to judge by after that are the tested cases. But the point I would like to interject at this stage is that such cases as the Carroll case which I referred to, and were reported upon by no means represent the totality of the injustices that have resulted from this Act. In other words, it is not an answer—I do not anticipate this answer but it is no harm that I should make the point—to say you can go through the report and turn up so many instances and that it has only worked injustice in a few cases. I would estimate that it has worked injustice in a greater number of unheard cases that never even got to the court than it has in the cases which reached court, because the cases which reached court were only the cases where the advocates involved were able to put up a case that they could have some reasonable chance of fighting.

In the Carroll case there was a very excellent argument put up and acknowledged as such in the Supreme Court by the Chief Justice. Nevertheless, the Chief Justice and the court found itself constrained to adhere to the view of the previous case—I think it was Carey's case to which Deputy Dillon has referred—and that was that. The case failed. If there is that background, it certainly is a question for examination— even the one simple and straightforward case, and it is only one case, that can arise under it of a county council doing something on a road. No damage is apparent to me or my property for some time, but, after six months have elapsed, it becomes apparent to me that I have suffered and am suffering damage. After the six months, I am debarred from action and have to take it, whereas, against a private individual, I would be in a position to have my remedy and to get justice. Is there a case for that? Frankly, I have always found it very hard to say that there is. I can see certain administrative reasons advanced, and I can see the argument put up that a public authority wants to know where it is. In the case of a county council, the rates have to be struck, notice given, and so forth. I have always felt, however, that the answer to that argument was that the county council will go on from year to year, and it is not a matter of such paramount importance what year the charge is levied, especially when it is weighed against the question whether a plaintiff is to have redress at all or not.

The other points in the Bill are of some importance, I suppose, but I think the kernel lies in this question of the six months' period—the question whether there are to be party and party costs or solicitor and client costs is, to my mind, incidental. Personally, I would probably subscribe to the view that party and party costs would probably be more correct, but the fundamental matter is the six months' limit. I have yet to be convinced that there is a case at all for it, but, suppose there is a case for some sort of time limit or projection—suppose we say there is an administrative reason, that there is a particular risk to a public authority that a public authority or public body is more vulnerable in litigation, just because it is impersonal, than the private individual. We have all heard that kind of argument advanced. Suppose we say that there are arguments with regard to the provision of evidence, difficulties in regard to proof and so on. These may constitute a case for some protective legislation, but they certainly do not constitute a case for this rigid period of six months.

I understand that the Minister's attitude is that he is sympathetic but is not prepared to repeal the Act as such, but to consider it from the point of view of drastic amendment. If that is so, I wonder what can we consider. There are, for instance, the provisions in the Workmen's Compensation Acts. There, there are two provisions in regard to time—the time for commencing an action and, I think, the time for making it known, although I have forgotten the exact details. Both of these provisions differ from the provision here in that there is provision for reasonable cause for not taking an action, an escape clause which enables the court to entertain an action if reasonable cause or something to that effect is found. I think, too, that something similar will be found in the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931, which has been the subject of some rather severe interpretation.

There may be alternatives, but I wonder if, in the long-run, they are good alternatives. Each of these provisions—perhaps more so than this provision—has been the cause of all sorts of interpretations as to what is and what is not reasonable cause for delay. Because of the flexibility of the enactment, more cases get to court and there is much more on the record than there is under this Act. The net result still is that you have a number of sometimes conflicting decisions with a state of uncertainty for the litigant, a state of uncertainty which, in practice, will frequently involve him in additional expense because it means additional research and advice. I have always felt, speaking personally, in regard to the Workmen's Compensation Acts, anyway, that, in practice, you were nearly in this position, that either you had to interpret it more or less rigorously, as to some extent was done in regard to the Landlord and Tenant Act, or it had to be watered down so much that the provision did not mean an awful lot at all, and might as well not be there for all the good it did.

I mention these things here because the net problem which will arise, if we agree that this provision, as such, must be so radically modified as, in effect, to go, but that there would be some need for protection for local authorities, is that we then have to weigh up what kind of practical protection can we give and, in the long-run, will that practical protection be fair to all parties, and, if it is, will it be worth while putting in at all. These are the difficulties that arise and naturally, having no proposals before us as to what the alternative would be, it is not possible to go any further. This much, I think, we can say, that it is time this matter was considered and this provision, as it stands, radically altered.

Am I not right in saying that the effect of this Bill would be to give a local authority the same Statute of Limitations as that which the rest of us enjoy?

Major de Valera

The Deputy's Bill is a matter, in effect, of simple repeal.

And of putting a local authority in the same position as every other person.

Major de Valera

Yes. With less information in a sense than Deputy Dillon has on this matter, I understand the position to be that Deputy Dillon's proposals are proposals for repeal. The Minister's attitude is that he is in agreement on the fundamental point in regard to the section, that it will be necessary radically to amend it, but he wants to look into it from that point of view.

But Section 1 contains an express proposal for a Statute of Limitations in respect of actions against public authorities.

Major de Valera

It has no greater force and effect than a repeal, in a sense. I can see that there may be other limitations in the background. There may be all sorts of things in the background to which I have not adverted—other Acts and so forth—

With regard to special limitations, but addressing myself specifically to the Public Authorities Protection Act, 1893, on which the Deputy based his whole case, the Bill is just the equivalent of a simple repeal. Leaving out what I might call special common law development in regard to corporations, and there has been some, and leaving out other enactments in the same sense, you have the position wherein, at the passing of this Bill in 1893, a corporation was in the same position as an individual. The Bill conferred privileges. Its repeal would remove these privileges and to that extent put the corporation back in the position contemplated by Section 1. It is in that very simplified sense I am now considering it.

The form of the Deputy's first section in this Bill raises yet another important matter for examination. I do not intend to go into the particular matter at the moment, but I would suggest that this is not the best way in which to achieve the Deputy's object. Let us examine the specific pre-1893 position of, first of all, a public body. If we were to examine thoroughly that position now we might find ourselves unduly complicated in our examination. As far as the main issue is concerned, it seems to me that the Deputy's main object is a simple repeal. It may be necessary—I say "may be", because I have never been able to see any very cogent arguments as to why it should be necessary—to have some protection for public bodies either by way of the time limit I have already mentioned in reference to other Acts or in some other way.

In excess of what the ordinary citizen enjoys?

Major de Valera

I am merely examining this question because, notwithstanding the Deputy's excellent presentation of his case which would convince anybody with no further information at his disposal that this was a complete aberration on the part of the introducers of the 1893 Bill, I am still not completely convinced that some reason for it did not exist.

Did the Deputy ever hear of any?

Major de Valera

Frankly, I did not. Certainly I heard none that convinced me.

Did the Deputy ever hear of any reason whatever, whether or not it was convincing?

Major de Valera

I did. I have heard of adminstrative reasons. I have heard rather tenuous reasons. There may be reasons and I think the best approach now, having got the measure of agreement that we have because all Deputies, irrespective of whether or not they are lawyers, appreciate the point involved, would be to have this question examined objectively by the Minister.

If the Minister finds as a result of that examination that there is no reason for any particular protection a simple repeal can be dealt with and the matter can be finalised thereafter. To say the least of it, I think it is premature to introduce the Bill in the form in which it has been introduced to-night.

Will not the Bill have to be committed to a Committee of the House after Second Reading and can it not be examined there?

It has been for six months in the hands of the Minister.

Major de Valera

I am talking now as a private Deputy. The Minister will investigate the position, I suggest. I am merely expressing my own view when I make that proposal.

Can the position not be investigated more effectively by a Committee of the House?

Major de Valera

Should it be necessary to make provisions for some protection in lieu of the protection that exists at present I think it would be better to do the job as a whole and not do it piecemeal. I have not examined all the implications of Section 1 but the naïve—I do not use that word in any derogatory sense—phraseology of the section suggests to me that there is in local government a body of legislation in relation to common liability which should be examined before we can accept Section 1. I doubt if it would be safe for us to pass the section as it stands without having the position formally examined by somebody such as the Minister and his Department or a Committee of this House. There is agreement in principle but I think we ought to see the other side of the picture and if there is need for compensatory protection for a public authority I think we should at least debate that before we proceed to pass the Bill even in the preliminary stages.

Surely the Deputy accepts the principle of equality before the law?

Major de Valera

Yes, but while equality before the law can be very simply stated it is very difficult to define.

Why should a corporation be in a privileged position?

Major de Valera

Public bodies might be of a different type.

There is such a thing as a limited liability company.

Major de Valera

That is so, and a limited liability company is in a different position. The problem is not as simple of solution as one might imagine. We accept the principle of equality but one cannot just write the matter off in terms of simple equality. Corporate bodies cannot be simply equated to one another.

I fully support the proposals in this Bill introduced by Deputy Dillon. The principal proposal is to repeal the Public Authorities Protection Act, 1893, and to enact that, so far as public authorities are concerned, they will be subject to and have the same rights as private individuals in their actions against private individuals.

We have here a body of law dealing with the limitation of actions by private individuals against private individuals or corporations which do not come within the scope of the Act of 1893. Most of that body can be found in the Common Law (Procedure) Act. That is not similar to the Statute of Limitations in England. As far as the laws are concerned in relation to this matter they do require examination, particularly from the point of view of deciding whether or not they are appropriate to modern conditions. I had intended that this particular Bill would be introduced by the Government of which I was at one time the head. I had also intended that other matters, such as the Statute of Limitations, Lord Campbell's Act and some others, should be examined and the law modernised.

I think this particular Act with which we are dealing now is in need of urgent repeal. In my view it is a relic of the bad old days of privilege and class, the days when the landlord and the rich merchants were the principal ratepayers and it was in their interest that a measure of this kind should be enacted in the British Parliament in the extraordinary and rather peculiar manner outlined to-night by Deputy Dillon.

I find no principle underlying this Act. As has been pointed out by Deputy Dillon, and he has been supported in his argument by Deputy Major de Valera, this Act has worked in particular cases the grossest injustice. Deputy Dillon has pointed out that the father of this measure was the late Lord Halsbury. His dead hand has reached out from the grave to our Supreme Court and it was a dictum of Lord Halsbury that was followed by a majority of our judges in the Supreme Court in the case of Carroll and Kildare County Council to which Deputy de Valera has referred. That particular decision was given by a majority of three to two. The position of the unfortunate plaintiff was that he was the plaintiff in an action for damages because of the negligence and default of the Kildare County Council in connection with steamrolling operations outside a small public-house in County Kildare. So far as my recollection serves the action lasted for something over a week.

My colleague was the late Circuit Judge O'Connor, then Mr. Art O'Connor. A jury decided in favour of the plaintiff. An appeal was taken by the Kildare County Council because the plaintiff got a verdict under the direction of Mr. Justice Martin Maguire and in the Supreme Court the case lasted for more than a week as far as I remember.

The argument went deeply and subtly into the construction to be put upon one particular phrase, or two or three words in a section of the Act. In the end the whole case of the Kildare County Council was resolved upon the dictum of Lord Halsbury, whose iniquitous measure this was. Unfortunately, three out of five judges decided to follow him. Therefore, the plaintiff—Mr. Carroll—had to forgo his claim and to pay costs.

Deputy de Valera mentioned cases in which damage was proved to have been caused by a local authority to a private individual. It was not ascertained and was incapable of being ascertained until after the expiration of the period of limitation provided by this Act. Therefore, the action could not be brought against the local authority and, if brought, involved the unfortunate sufferer in a liability for solicitor and client costs, which, for the benefit of Deputies in the House who may not be familiar with these matters, meant a very considerable additional burden.

It is unnecessary for me to go into all the matters that have been dealt with by the two previous speakers. It appears to be accepted that this is an iniquitous measure that is long due for reform.

The number of bodies that have been endeavouring to bring themselves within the ambit and scope of this iniquitous measure is astonishing. Córas Iompair Éireann tried it out for a good while. Fortunately, they were not successful in their efforts. We have documents upon the files of the court in connection with actions brought by private individuals who were injured through the negligence of bus drivers or otherwise. However, because the actions were not brought within a period of six months after the injuries were received, Córas Iompair Éireann was not held liable. My recollection is that we put into the Transport Act. 1950, a provision making it definitely clear that such a procedure was not to be possible for Córas Iompair Éireann, although this body, being kept alive by the taxpayers' money, is, to a very considerable extent, a public authority. I do not think that the Electricity Supply Board ever made the case that they are a public authority, although they might very readily have done so. I think I am correct in saying that they never tried to bring themselves within the ambit of this Act.

Deputy de Valera has referred to the provisions in other Acts. He seems to think that some limitation ought to be put down for the protection of public bodies. I agree that the same limitation as applies to private individuals should be applicable, where practicable, to public bodies. They should stand in relation to the community in exactly the same position as the ordinary citizen, enjoying no greater or no lesser privilege. The Deputy referred to provisions in the Workmen's Compensation Acts and in the Landlord and Tenant Act. He knows that the statutory limitations in those Acts cause grave injustice from time to time. The more of those statutory limitations one puts in, the more injustice is being done to humble individuals. Mr. Carroll, who brought an action against a Kildare County Council, was a humble man with a very small holding, and he was involved in liabilities that must still be an immense burden on him.

I see no justification in principle for having a limitation for public authorities other than the limitation that applies to private individuals. I am speaking from recollection, but I think that Section 57, sub-section (7), of the Local Government Act, 1898, provided that actions against local authorities where the claim, if it had to be made, was payable out of the poor rate, had to be brought within six months. That worked out in practice to be such an injustice that the then Legislature, and our own Legislature since we took over control of the State, brought in amending legislation providing that the period could be extended. It is my opinion that the injustice has been wiped out by the provisions of the local government legislation passed within recent years.

The periods of limitation put in by statute caused hardship and injustice in the case of the Landlord and Tenant Act. I was engaged in one of those cases to which Deputy de Valera referred—the Burke case. There is no doubt that, through no fault of their own, great injustice has been caused to litigants. Perhaps the clerk overlooked to serve notice, although instructed to do so or, perhaps, the party bringing the action was ill. The period of limitation passed, and they were deprived of their right. All experience goes to show that, while stale demands should not be given any hearing, this House ought to be very slow to re-enact any provisions which will give further privileges to local authorities. It is said that there are administrative difficulties. Deputy de Valera thinks so. My idea would be to give the same period of limitation to local authorities as is given to private individuals.

Major de Valera

I heard that suggestion, but I have never been convinced of it.

The Deputy as well as I is familiar with cases in which a number of private individuals had good cases against local authorities but shrank from bringing them in because of the appalling liability that would be theirs if the cases did not go well. They were thereby deprived of their just rights.

Major de Valera

The position has been even worse than that. There have been cases which were certain to succeed and where it has been said: "You are a month out and you have no action."

We have also got examples of individuals who have good cases but who are afraid to run the risk. It is suggested that public authorities are more vulnerable. Perhaps they are. Perhaps the jury takes the view that the broad back can bear a heavy burden. Against that I want to emphasise that, in bringing heavy litigation against public authorities, private individuals take immense risks. Public authorities have very much bigger resources and enjoy greater facilities for the conduct of litigation than do private individuals.

It was said that the justification for the provisions such as those in Section 57, sub-section 7 of the Local Government Act, 1898, was that the ratepayers should be the persons to pay for a claim in the particular year in which it was made. That cannot be used as a justification for the provisions, because it is correct to say that no proceedings can be brought within a particular fiscal year owing to the necessity for awaiting courts; no High Court action can be brought to a conclusion within the fiscal year in which the action comes up.

The administrative difficulties to which Deputy de Valera referred, if they exist at all, which I doubt, are more than counterbalanced by the fact that local authorities have big resources at their disposal and have greater facilities than have private individuals for the conduct of litigation. I feel that the Minister would be only doing what justice requires and what the general public approves if he arranged that public authorities would stand as regards actions in exactly the same position as private individuals.

I move the Adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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