It will be acknowledged that this motion, tabled by Deputy Byrne, has achieved one result. It has resulted in two very important speeches being delivered, one by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and one by Deputy Cosgrave. Of the two, I would say that the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce offered more hope for the country than that of Deputy Cosgrave. The speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce was one of confidence in the future and an assessment of the problems that lie before us and how they may be overcome. In striking contrast to that speech, we had the speech of Deputy Cosgrave, in which he could hold out no prospect of remedial measures, even with a change of Government. He is, of course, aware that while the cost of living has risen 23 points since August, 1950, an increase occurred when he was in the responsible position of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and while his Government was in power.
Private Deputies' Business. - Rise in Cost of Living—Motion.
That statement is untrue and the Deputy knows it is.
That statement can be borne out by the statistics provided in the Irish Trade Journal.
Quote them.
I will quote the figures for you. In August, 1950, the figure was 100 and in August, 1951, the figure was 111. That is an increase of 11 points in one year.
Will the Deputy give the reference as to where he got these figures?
The current Irish Trade Journal.I will get the reference.
Why does not the Deputy quote from the Irish Trade Journaland not from a scrap of paper?
The Deputy must be allowed to make his speech in his own way. He has given the reference.
With respect to you, Sir, the Deputy is quoting or purporting to quote from an official document. I am entitled to ask him to give the reference and make his quotation from the official document, not a scrap of paper.
He has given the reference.
I will have plenty of opportunity of confounding that.
Deputy Cogan is in possession and he must be allowed to make his speech in his own way.
It is well known that you got into a panic at that time.
I would not care to be in the panic in which you are now.
We are not in a panic.
If you knew what the people are thinking of you, you would be.
Deputy Cogan must be allowed to make his speech in his own way.
I have got the reference. The page is 228 of the Irish Trade Journal—cost-of-living essential items index numbers, base 1947, 100. We will take 1950. In August, 1950, it was 100; November, 1950, 102; February, 1951, 103; May, 1951, 109; August, 1951, 111. These are the figures I have quoted, and they are given on page 228 of the currentTrade Journal.There ought not to be any question about that.
There will be.
That is that half of theincrease in the cost of living occurred prior to the change of Government. Therefore, if there is any charge to be made against anybody for increasing the cost of living, half of the guilt of that rests on the inter-Party Government. I do not think, however, it is altogether right to blame either the inter-Party Government for the increase of 11 points up to the time they went out of office or to blame the present Government for the further increase. In the main, the increases in the cost of living were brought about by increases in the cost of imported raw materials and imported essential goods and by increases in wages.
I think that that fact ought to be recognised and that there ought to be a more realistic approach to matters of this kind. Bandying charges across the House on falsified figures does not get anybody anywhere. It is about time that Deputy Morrissey, after being in and out of office, ought to begin to acquire a sense of responsibility similar to that which appears to have been acquired already by Deputy Cosgrave, because Deputy Cosgrave made a serious speech. He was not trying to score little narrow Party points. He was trying to face up to the problems in his own way as he saw them. As reported in the Official Report for Friday, 6th March, column 2496, he said:—
"I do not deny that some decisions which may have to be taken will be unpopular."
That is a very useful kind of statement for a Front Bench member of the Opposition to make, because he raps on the knuckles Deputies like Deputy Flanagan and others who claim that they will solve all our problems by one wave of their hand when they get into office.
Running through all of Deputy Cosgrave's speech was a note of pessimism. In the course of his speech he said that he did not know how these difficulties were to be overcome or how they could be solved. He said:—
"The position that now exists is that it is difficult to see what immediate remedy can be applied. The suggestion of the Minister that itwould require substantially increased taxation in order to reintroduce the subsidies is undoubtedly true..."
Again at column 2496 he makes it quite clear: "We do not believe there is any easy solution of these problems."
Deputy Cosgrave and some other Deputies tried to make some capital out of things that have happened recently. Both Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Cosgrave tried to condemn the Government for increasing the price of butter. They knew perfectly well that that increase was rendered necessary in order to provide a better price for milk producers. When they condemn the increase in the price of butter they are indirectly attacking the farmer, his rights and his standard of living. They know that the increased price of milk was rendered necessary because of the increased wages paid to agricultural workers. Therefore, when they attack the increase in the price of butter they are attacking the standard of living of the lowest paid workers here, the agricultural workers.
I think it is time to get away from that attitude of irresponsibility. Better wages cannot be paid to the agricultural worker unless the price of food is increased. Higher wages mean higher prices. One cannot increase general expenditure to subsidise prices without increasing taxation. Higher expenditure means higher taxation. Higher wages mean higher prices. It is nonsense for Deputy Dunne to suggest that the increase in the price of food and other essential commodities has been brought about because of excessive profits gained by those engaged in the respective industries. There is no excessive profit for the farmer or the creamery in the production of butter. If one analyses the cost of production one will find that the heaviest items of cost come under the heading of raw materials and labour. What might be saved as a result of reducing profits would be very, very small and would have very little effect on the cost of living.
Deputy Cosgrave knows all these things. Because he knows them and because he is honest he does not make the flamboyant speeches that someother members of the Opposition insist on making. Deputy O'Higgins made a flamboyant speech when he said that the decontrol of bacon had resulted in an increase in the price of bacon and at the same time a reduction in the price of pigs. In actual fact he is entirely wrong in relation to the price of pigs because in the two years prior to decontrol the price paid to the farmers averaged about 200/- per cwt. and since decontrol it has averaged 250/-.
There has been some increase to the farmer, a very necessary increase because the production of pigs was going down. The production of pigs had gone down very materially under the inter-Party Government because the price paid to the farmers for their pigs was not a satisfactory one. It would be a good thing if those who profess to be interested in the cost of living, in wages and in the standard of living generally of our people would get down to the problem in a serious way. It is desirable that an effort should be made by voluntary cooperation between the trade union leaders and employers to prevent any further rise in the cost of living and any further substantial rise in the general level of wages. There may be need for adjustment in regard to some of the lower paid workers. That is true of the lower paid State employees just as it is true of the ordinary workers outside. In fairness to the general community I think the time has come when people ought to be satisfied with a reasonable reward in order to keep the cost of living under control. In the case of the few who are very lowly paid something should be done.
I presume the Deputy with his usual sense of fair play will take up all the time available. The Deputy knows that this debate must finish at 10.30.
If it were not for the interruptions of Deputy Morrissey I would have concluded before this. Deputy Morrissey is indulging in his usual tactics. I appeal now to Deputy Dunne, to the leaders of the Labour movement and to employers to sit down around a table and realise that this isa serious matter. The country can only be saved by stabilisation of conditions generally. It is a bad thing that prices should fall too low. It is equally bad that they should rise too high. Everybody should be satisfied now to adjust matters in a reasonable way, prevent the cost of living rising and by increased efficiency and increased production and employment provide for a raising of the general standard of living of our people.
I hope the Fianna Fáil Party are feeling quite happy with their defenders. Deputy Cogan purported to quote official trade statistics.
I did quote.
Who was talking about interruptions? I have not got the document before me but from recollection I am satisfied that the Deputy was quoting figures and trying to compare figures that were not comparable. The Deputy said that the cost of living in August, 1950, was 100. The cost of living in August, 1947, when the Fianna Fáil Government at the time established a new cost-of-living index, was 100. The inter-Party Government administered this country from February, 1948, to August, 1950, without the cost of living increasing by as much as one point. That was over a period of two and a half years. The Deputy is now supporting a Government under whose administration the cost of living has increased more in the first six months than it did in the previous three and a half years.
It increased by the same amount in the last six months of the inter-Party Government.
Of course the Deputy cannot take it. The Deputy counts for very little and he will only count for a very short time. The Deputy is here by the accident of 17 votes. Otherwise he would not be here at all since 1951.
That is not relevant to the motion.
I do not mind what any Fianna Fáil Deputy says. I can listen to them even if I do not agreewith them, but when I hear some Deputies preaching about zeal and effort it makes me feel a bit sick. When I hear a Deputy deliberately twisting figures in relation to pig and bacon prices over certain areas I cannot but be annoyed. When I hear such a Deputy, and some of his colleagues too, holding himself out as the only member here who has any interest in or any right to speak for the farmers I cannot but be irritated. Perhaps one should not waste too much time on Deputy Cogan. He is not concerned with the merits of any motion that comes before the House. He will vote for and play with that side of the House for whatever length of time he remains there. He must do that because immediately he ceases to do that he ceases to be a member of this House.
That is not relevant.
Are we discussing Deputy Cogan?
The Deputy had better keep quiet. He has a lot to learn yet. He is very young.
I do not pretend to know as much as Deputy Morrissey.
The less knowledge people have, the more vocal they become. I want to thank Deputy Byrne for his indulgence. I am sorry I had only three minutes.
Mr. A. Byrne
At column 2483, Volume 136 of the Official Debates of 6th March, 1953, Mr. Lemass said:—
"Nobody is denying that the cost of living has gone up, that prices have risen. What has happened is, in my view, permanent."
The Minister for Industry and Commerce says that the cost of living as it is to-day will not go back. I am pleading for the people who are on low wages, small pensions and small incomes. They are not now able to buy the necessaries of life to keep them in good health. With the price at which foodstuffs stand at the present time the low wages group cannot buy sufficient ordinary food. It is because ofthat I am asking the House to censure the Government for their failure to keep the cost of living within reasonable bounds so that ordinary working-class people, people on small incomes and small pensions and those who are Government employees could have a reasonable standard of living. Most of us, having received a circular in this connection, know that there are employees in the Civil Service, married men, with only £5 per week. What are these married people in the Government service to do if the Government refuses to give effect to the arbitration award? It is true that the person in receipt of £5 per week would receive only 10/-, but it would be 10/- towards the increase in the cost of bread and in the cost of butter. I am asking the Government to ensure that these people will be able to buy the ordinary necessaries of life.
I would like also to say a word or two on behalf of the unemployed. It is impossible for people to live on the small incomes they receive from the employment exchange. People receiving domiciliary treatment for tuberculosis are at a similar disadvantage and those on poor relief are not getting any increase to meet the increase in the price of foodstuffs. I am asking the House to tell the Government that the increases that have taken place must not remain permanent and that the Government will be failing in its duty if it does not take steps to reduce the cost of living.
As I quoted, the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that what has happened is, in his view, permanentand that we are not going to get back again to pre-war prices. Nobody wants to get back to pre-war prices but if the people cannot get sufficient food, the Government should provide the money to get that food. The Government should set an example in this regard by providing compensation for the cost of living to its own employees. Women cleaners, for instance, receive 15/- less than the rate paid to E.S.B. cleaners.
What has that to do with the motion?
Mr. A. Byrne
I am condemning the Government for their failure to keep the cost of living within reasonable bounds. The amount paid to employees in Government service in many cases is not sufficient to enable those people to buy food. When the bread subsidies were removed the price of bread rose from 6d. to 9d. When the subsidies were removed, the Government gave nothing to the soldiers, to their wives or families, to the Gardaí or postal workers, to meet the increase in the price of bread and butter. These people cannot engage in alternative employment. They must give their full time to Government service. In regard to industry the number of unemployed is growing at the rate of 1,000 a week for the last six months. The Government is not doing its duty because it is not trying to solve the important problems of unemployment and emigration, of low wages and high prices. Only to-day, I was speaking to a group of women who said: "Mr. Byrne, when are you going to get rid of that gang?" Motion put.
Tá
- Beirne, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Byrne, Thomas, N. J.
- Carew, John.
- Collins, Seán.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Crowe, Patrick.
- Dillon, James M.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Norton, William.
- O'Donnell, Patrick.
- O'Gorman, Patrick J.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Finan, John.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Hession, James M.
- Hickey, James.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Lynch, John (North Kerry)
- MacBride, Seán.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Madden, David J.
- Mannion, John.
- O'Sullivan, Denis.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Roddy, Joseph.
- Rogers, Patrick J.
- Rooney, Eamon.
- Spring, Dan.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, John.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
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- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Breathnach, Cormac.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick.
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- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Cogan, Patrick.
- Colley, Harry.
- Collins, James J.
- Cowan, Peadar.
- Crowley, Honor Mary.
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- Cunningham, Liam.
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- de Valera, Eamon.
- de Valera, Vivion.
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- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Little, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
- McCann, John.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- McGrath, Patrick.
- Maguire, Patrick J.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moran, Michael.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ormonde, John
- O'Sullivan, Ted
- Rice, Bridget M.
- Ryan, James.
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- Sheldon, William A.W.
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