Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Apr 1953

Vol. 138 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 58—Gnóthaí Eachtracha.

Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha (Proinnsias Mac Aogáin)

Tairgim:

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £272,250 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1954, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin (Uimh. 16 de 1924), lena n-áirítear Deontas-i-gCabhair.

Mar a chífidh na Teachtaí ar ball beidh laghdú £14,260 sa Mheastachán seo ar Mheastachán na bliana seo caite-Is é is mó is cúis leis sin ná an fóirdheontas don Ghníomhaireacht Nuachta Éireannach, £45,000, a bheith £18,500 níos lú ná mar bhí anuraidh agus ina theannta sin méadú £9,400 a bheith ar Leithreasa-i-gCabhair.

Is é faoi ndeara an méadú ar na Leithreasa-i-gCabhair ná go bhfuarthas thar n-ais ó Chóras Tráchtála Teoranta an méid iomlán is iníoctha le foirinn na Roinne seo atá ag gabháil go lánaimsearach d'obair an chomhluchta sin. I dteannta an Rúnaí Chúnta atá ar iasacht ón gCeanncheathrúin tá sa bhfoirinn seo beirt Oifigeach Trádála maraon le fo-fhoirinn áirithe sna Stáit Aontaithe. Is é is mó is cúis leis na méaduithe sna Fo-Mhírchinn tuarastal ná gur cuireadh leis an bhfoirinn i Londain agus i Bonn, agus gnáthbhreisithe a bheith le n-íoc agus liúntais d'oifigigh ar phósadh dhóibh. Tá laghdú ar na fo-mhírchinn taistil sa bhaile agus thar lear. Tá méadú ar chostas imdhála Feasacháin na Roinne thar lear toisc méadú a theacht ar an bpostas.

Ó Mheastachán na bliana seo caite tá curtha lenár misiúin taidhleoireachta agus consalachta thar lear trí Chonsal Oinigh a cheapadh san Íoslainn. Dá thoradh sin tá d'oifigí thar lear againn seacht nAmbasáidí, ocht Leagáideachtaí, Ard-Chonsalacht amháin, trí Consalachtaí agus seacht gConsalachtaí Oinigh. Níor deineadh aon athrú ar an méid misiún eachtrannach in Éirinn-Maris gnáth, rinne an Roinn seo i bhfus agus na hoifigí consalachta thar lear an obair a bhaineas le pasanna, visae agus eastáit maraon le hobair chonsalachta eile. Is beag athrú a tharla ar mhéid na hoibre seo i 1952-53 i dtaca leis an mbliain roimhe.

Chomh fada siar le 1950, b'eol don Roinn seo go raibh roinnt sagart Éireannacha, de Mhisiún Mhaigh Nuadhat chun na Síne, faoi ghabháil ag forsaí Korea Thuaidh agus deineadh gach dícheall ó shoin, trí chaoinchabhair Rialtas na Breataine, na hEilbhéise, na hInde agus na hAstráile, chun faisnéis d'fháil faoina dtoisc.

Ba mhór ar fad an chaill linn a chlos ó am go ham go bhfuair cuid de na misnéirí sin bás i Korea Thuaidh, agus ní raibh aon eolas cinnte le fáil faoin gcuid eile go dtí le fíor-dhéanaí, nuair a fuarthas amach gur bheo fós don Mhonsignor Ó Caoinleáin, Prefect Aspalda. Mar is eol do na Teachtaí, scaoileadh an Monsignor Ó Caoinleáin saor ag Údaráis Korea Thuaidh maraon le seisear Síbhialtach Breataineacha a bhí faoi choinneáil, agus, le caoinchabhair Rialtais na Breataine, rinneadh socruithe chun go dtabharfaí abhaile é i dteannta na mBreataineach a bhí faoi choinneáil.

Mar is eol do na Teachtaí shroich an Monsignor Ó Caoinleáin Aerphort Baile Átha Cliath inné ar an slí abhaile do agus fearaimid fíorchaoin fáilte roimhe ar a theacht abhaile tar éis a chruacháis fhada.

Tá ár míle buíochas ag dul do na Rialtais atá i gceist as ucht na cabhrach a thugadar chun go scaoilfí saor an Monsignor Ó Caoinleáin, agus go háirithe do Rialtas na Breataine toisc na saoráidí a chuir siad ar fáil chomh fonnmhar sin le go bhféadfadh sé filleadh abhaile.

Le linn na bliana sco caite lean an Roinn dá gnáthshaothar faisnéise agus cultúra. Is chuige atá seirbhísí faisnéise na Roinne ná chun gur fearr a bheas eolas ar Éirinn i dtíortha coigríche agus go háirithe chun a dheimhniú go bhfoilseofar thar lear na fíorais faoin Teorainn. Eisítear agus cuirtear chun nuachtóirí cachtrannacha, agus chun daoine mór-thionchair in go leor tíortha, feasachán seachtainiúil inambíonn scéala intsuime faoi Éirinn. Scaiptear tuairim is 6,500 cóip faoi láthair agus tá fianaise ann á thaispeáint go mbíonn fáilte roimhe ag na daoine a gheibheann é agus go mbaintear dea-úsáid as sna nuachtáin eachtrannacha agus eile.

Tá "Ireland—An Introduction," a hullmhaíodh ag Rannóg Faisnéise na Roinne, a imdháil fós ag na misiúin thar lear agus ar chuairteoirí oirearca agus tuairisceoirí eachtrannacha a thagann go hÉirinn. Tá eagrán nua ar fad den leabhrán seo á fhoilsiú faoi láthair. Meastar, áfach, i dteannta "Ireland— An Introduction," go bhfuil gá le leabhrán níos saoire don phobal a chuirfeadh in iúl go simplí soiléir na príomh-fhíorais faoi Éirinn, agus a scaipfí go fairsing. Foilsíodh paimfléad, cósúil le "Ireland—An Introduction," sa bhFraincis. Tá réamhrá leis ón scríbhneoir clúil Francach úd, M. André Siegfried, agus, más maith is mithid, déanfaidh sé beart fónta chun faisnéis a sholáthar do dhaoine gan Béarla.

Eisíonn an Rannóg "Documents on Ireland," sreath páipéar a thugann eolas fírinneach faoi ghnéithe éagsúla de shaol na tíre, agus imdháiltear iad ar thuairisceoirí, lucht oideachais agus daoine eile a bhfuil spéis acu sna gnéithe áirithe sin.

Cuireadh deireadh i rith na bliana le Coiste Taighde Chomhdháil Uile-Pháirteach Dhíchur na Teorann. Na ceithre paimfléid ar an Teorainn d'fhoilsigh an Coiste—"Ireland's Right to Unity,""Discrimination,""One Vote Equals Two" agus "The Orange Card"— tá an Rannóg Faisnéise ag leanúint dá scaipeadh, mar is ar an Rannóig atá de chúram an cás in aghaidh na Teorann d'fhoilsiú thar lear. Déantar "Six County Newsheet," a thugann an t-eolas is déanaí faoi chúrsaí sna Sé Contaethe agus faoi shaothair in aghaidh na Teorann, d'imdháil ar Chumainn Bhriseadh na Teorann, agus ar dhaoine atá báidhiúil linn, mar eolas dóibh. In aghaidh na seachtaine a heisítear é.

Lean an Rannóg de cheisteanna den uile chineál d'fhreagairt a fuair an Roinn agus na misiúin thar lear ó eachtrannaigh a bhfuil spéis acu in Éirinn. I gcomhar le Bureau Eolais an Rialtais, an Bord Fáilte, Fógra Fáilte,Aer Lingus agus Córas Iompair Éireann deintear deimhin do go bhfaghann tuairisceoirí cuarta gach áis is féidir le linn dóibh bheith anseo. Breithníodh tagairtí d'Éirinn sna nuachtáin choigríche, agus, aon uair a measadh ba ghá é, deineadh beart chun ráitis bhréagacha a cheartú.

An saothar a dhéanann an Roinn faoi chaidreamh cultúra agus a déantar i gcomhar le Comhar Cultúra Éireann (An Coiste Comhairlitheach um Chaidreamh Cultúra), ba leanúntas é ar an saothar rathmhar a rinne siad sna blianta roimhe sin. Baintear úsáid iomlán as an Vóta £10,000 atá ar fáil chun na críche sin, agus táim lándeimhnitheach de gur mhór ar fad an chabhair an méid de sin a caitheadh sa bhliain atá faoi bhreithniú chun caidreamh cultúra na hÉireann le tíortha eile a chothú.

Tá tuarascáil an Choiste do 1952/53 á hullmhú faoi láthair agus, chomh luath is bheas sí réidh, cuirfear faoi bhráid an Tí í agus tabharfar do na Teachtaí í. Léireoidh an Tuarascáil go mbaineann saothar an Choiste um Chaidreamh Cultúra agus saothar na Roinne seo le gach gné de shaol cultúra na tíre.

Ag leanúint den tsreath leabhrán ar Shaol agus Cultúr na hÉireann, thug an Coiste tacaíocht d'fhoilsiú leabhráin i rith na bliana dar teideal "Books on Ireland"—is é sin leabhar-liost gairid de chineál ginearálta. Táthar ag súil gur mór an chabhair a thabharfaidh an follseachán seo do mhic léinn eachtrannacha ar mian leo dearcadh ginearálta d'fháil ar an tír seo faoi na mírchinn éagsúla. Is geall le dara eagrán é den fhoilseachán "Ireland— a bibliography" d'fhoilsigh an tArdMhúsaem in 1942.

Le haghaidh na hoibre seo go léir, theastaigh síor-aird agus síor-chomhoibriú ó chomhaltaí an Choiste agus ba mhaith liom buíochas ó chroí a ghabháil leo thar cionn an Rialtais agus thar mo chionn féin mar gheall ar an gcaoi inar chaith siad am agus saothair i mbun na mbeartas a tosnaíodh agus a cuireadh i gcrích chomh rathmhar sin.

Cuireadh an chabhair eacnamaíochta ó Aimeirice ar fiúnaí i mí Bealtaine, 1951, agus ní raibh sé i gceist chor arbith go bhfaigheadh Éire aon chúnamh eacnamaíochta ná airgeadais ó Aimeirice i rith na bliana 1952.

Cheal cabhrach ó Aimeirice níor tháinig faoi thrácht i rith na bliana seo caite maidir le Cúnamh Eacnamaíochta ó Aimeirice ach na scéimeanna chun an t-airgead d'úsáid a bhí ag freagairt do chontrapháirt sterling na ndolaerí faoi phlean Marshall a fuarthas i bhfoirm deontais. Tá an t-airgead sin i seilbh an Bhainc Ceannais i gCuntas Speisialta Contrapháirteach an Deontais. Tuairim £6,142,000 a mhóid. Tá liosta iomlán de dhá scéimeanna déag curtha faoi bhráid an Rialtais Aimeiriceánaigh. Measadh go gcaithfí cúig mhilliún go leith punt ar na scéimeanna sin. Maidir leis an bhfuíollach, tuairim £642,000, tá moladh curtha chun na húdaráis Aimeiricéanacha go gcoimeádfaí an tsuim sin chun í d'úsaid ar aon chinn de na scéimeanna a mbeadh sé inmholta é d'úsáid orthu ar ball. Is é cúis atá leis sin go mb'fhéidir go sárófaí na meastacháin do chuid acu. Ina theannta sin tá fadhbanna chomh mór sin ag baint le cuid acu a chur i gcrích go hiomlán go mbeadh i bhfad níos mó airgid ag teastáil dóibh ná mar atá á chur m áirithe dhóibh faoi láthair. Sin mar atá go háirithe maidir leis an gcloch aoil mheilte agus le scrios na heitinne i gcás beithíoch.

Ní foláir ceadú d'fháil roimh ré ó Rialtas agus ó Pharlaimint na Stát Aontaithe chun na cistí i gCuntas Speisialta Contrapháirteach an Deontais a chaitheamh. Tá scrúdú á dhéanamh faoi láthair ag an Rialtas sin ar na scéimeanna a moladh chun an t-airgead sa chuntas a chaitheamh, agus táimid ag súil go gcuirfear faoi bhráid an Congress iad go luath chun iad a cheadú. Ní bhfuarthas fós ó na húdaráis Aimeiriceánacha aon tuairim chinnte i dtaobh na scéimeanna a moladh.

Síníodh Coinbhinsiún Consalachta ar an lú Bealtaine, 1950, i mBaile Atha Cliath idir an tír seo agus na Stáit Aontaithe. Sin an chéad Choinbhinsiún dá shaghas a rinne an tír seo. Is é a chuspóir feidhmeanna agus cearta consal na hÉireann in Aimeirice agus consul Aimeirice in Éirinn a mhíniú agus a chinntiú. Baineadh forálaáirithe as an gCoinbhinsiún, áfach, trí Phrótocol a síníodh i mBaile Atha Cliath ar an 3ú lá de Mhárta anuraidh. Baineann na forála sin go príomha le hAirteagal XVIII den Choinbhinsiún. Is é atá i dtrácht san Airteagal sin deonadh ionadaíochta i leith eastát daoine marbha. B'éigean an tAirteagal sin a bhaint amach toisc Seanad na Stát Aontaithe a bheith ina choinne ar chúiseanna bunreachtála. Ní raibh an dara roghain againn, ár ndóigh, agus b'éigean dúinn glacadh le hagóidí Sheanad na Stát Aontaithe agus aontú leis an Prótocol a dhéanamh. An uair amháin a bhí na forála sin scriosta amach ag an Prótocol, ní raibh aon bhac ar dhaingniú an Choinbhinsiúin agus an Phrótocoil ag na húdaráis Aimeiriceánacha. Rinneadh sin ar an 26ú lá de Mheitheamh anuraidh.

Ní féidir leis an Uachtárán é a dhaingniú go dtí go rithfear reachtaíocht áirithe. Ta dréachta decu reachtaíocht sin—fuarthas cuid aon ó Ranna eile—curtha le chéile agus ullmhaithe ag an Roinn seo agus táid ag an dréachtóir parlaiminteach faoi láthair. Tá súil agam go mbeidh ar mo chumas an reachtaíocht sin a thabhairt isteach sa Dáil taobh istigh de chúpla seachtain.

Mr. D. Costello

Before speaking to this Estimate, I would like to join with the Minister in welcoming home to Ireland Monsignor Quinlan. Monsignor Quinlan has won the warm admiration not only of his fellow countrymen at home and abroad but also of the whole reading public of the world, for his great courage and fine spirit in the face of the great trials he has had to undergo. Perhaps the highest praise we can give Monsignor Quinlan is to say he has followed in the finest traditions of the Irish Missionary Church and that he has added great lustre to his country. May we wish him long life and good health for the future.

On the Estimate which is before the House to-day, it should be said that the principal items which come up for discussion were discussed here as recently as February last. It does not seem to be very opportune to go into a full debate again on the various mattersdiscussed when the Supplementary Estimate was introduced by the Minister last February. I wish, therefore, merely to touch briefly on some of those matters, because I do not think the Minister replied fully when they were raised in that debate. I do this in the knowledge that I will be repeating some of the arguments and points raised then; I do so also because I believe it important that the various points of view which were raised then should be ventilated here; and I do so further in the hope that we may get some answer from the Minister on those points.

One of the main criticisms made last February was that the Government had no foreign policy. That criticism was made by several Deputies. In his reply, the Minister endeavoured to answer the charge and stated that the object of his foreign policy was a free and independent Republic for the whole of Ireland. I should like to comment by saying that we must clearly distinguish between the ends of foreign policy on which we are all agreed and the means of obtaining those ends. I think we are all agreed on the ends of foreign policy, that they are fairly simple and clear-cut. It must be designed towards the maintenance of our national sovereignty; it must be designed towards the maintenance Ireland and towards assistance in maintaining world peace. No one on this side of the House or in any part of the House or, no doubt, in any part of this part of the country will say that we should not use every means at our disposal towards reaching the goal of a united 32-county Republic. Our criticism of the Minister has been that he has given no indication, first, of how that is to be brought about or, secondly, when it has been brought about, how it is to be maintained. The things that we should be discussing here are not, in my opinion, the broad ends of foreign policy which we are all agreed upon but the means to achieve those ends.

It is quite clear that the problem of Partition has been one which has given each successive Government the greatest possible concern. The Government in office before the present Governmentcarried out a policy of bringing the injustice of Partition to the notice of world opinion, endeavouring to harness world opinion, and in particular American opinion, against the undoubted injustice which Partition is. That policy was a good one and one that should be maintained. I believe that, side by side with that policy, there is a further policy, which I have advocated here before and which I will indicate again very briefly. It is the policy of endeavouring to achieve an economic integration of the two portions of our country. I believe that by bringing about a greater economic integration between the six north-eastern counties and the rest of Ireland we can go a long way towards breaking down the political barrier and towards bringing about a more harmonious 32-county Irish State when that political barrier is finally broken down.

It seems to me that there are at the present time not only political barriers but economic and psychological barriers between the two portions of our country. We could go a long way towards breaking down those psychological barriers, the fear and the hesitancy and the uncertainty in the minds of many of our fellow countrymen in the six north-eastern counties of this country if we were to develop on the lines of economic co-operation of which we have had such fruitful experience in the last three or four years. I am referring particularly to the co-operation in connection with the G.N.R. and the Erne electricity scheme. It does seem to me that nothing but good has come from the co-operation on this economic level between the Governments of the two portions of this country. As I have indicated before, there are many fields which are wide open for co-operation on a similar level between the two portions of this country.

We are not in any way withdrawing our claim or in any way mitigating our demand for the ultimate political unification of our country, and we are not in any way prejudicing our position by co-operating with the Government of the six north-eastern counties. The co-operation that has taken place canbe continued in the future on such items as the marketing of our agricultural produce, on aspects of transport which have not been included in the agreement with the Northern Government with regard to the G.N.R. and on many matters dealing with the administration of justice in the two portions of the country. We can, I think, ultimately achieve a customs union between the Government of the six north-eastern counties and our own Government here.

I believe that we must be realistic about this problem of Partition. I believe that there is in the North a small group of fanatical, bigoted men, whose bitterness and prejudice we will never be able to assuage. On the other hand, I believe that there are many thousands of Ulstermen who, though they differ from the majority of us in the South in religion and stand to attention when "God Save the Queen" is played, all the same, regard themselves as Irishmen. To that very large and, I believe, majority of Ulstermen, we should appeal and by co-operation in as many fields as are available, and I believe there are many, we can break down the psychological barrier which divides the two portions of this country and the economic barriers which at the moment the political situation has created, thereby bringing nearer the day when the political union of this country can be achieved and making certainly easier the development of this country as a political entity when it does take place.

I referred in the debate in February also to the Government's policy in regard to the Council of Europe. The Minister did not refer to that aspect of the debate at all and I would be glad if he would do so in reply. We have been sending delegates to Strasbourg since the Council of Europe was set up. Our delegates have taken part in the debates in Strasbourg, but it is apparent that the present Government have given no indication to the Irish delegates of the sort of policy that these delegates should follow in the council chamber at Strasbourg. There are, as is well known to everybody, many vital things happening in the Council of Europe. There are many conflictingpolicies and our delegates appear to be completely at sea and take little or no part in the very vital controversies which have taken place over the last 12 months or so since the Schuman Plan came into full operation.

I might refer to one particular aspect of the work of the Council of Europe which may vitally affect economically our country. At the moment there is a plan under discussion for the setting up of what is called the Green Pool. We have been informed by the Minister that we have representatives attending these discussions. It is of vital importance that the House and the country should be informed of what the nature of these discussions is and what role Ireland can play in the setting up and establishment of the Green Pool. If the Green Pool takes the form of pooling all the steel and coal resources of the six Schuman Plan countries, if it sets up a common marketing system for agricultural produce, and if it determines the price of agricultural produce, it is quite clear to everybody that we will be vitally affected in our export trade by decisions which may be taken without our knowledge. It is of vital importance economically that this country should take part in these discussions and be informed by the Minister of what is happening. It is one aspect of the work of the Council of Europe upon which we have little or no information.

On the broader aspect of policy in regard to the Council of Europe, the Minister must be well aware, as is any representative from this country who has attended any European international gathering, that the countries of Europe desire Ireland's co-operation at the present juncture of European history, that they would gladly welcome Ireland's co-operation in bringing about a greater integration of Western Europe. It is generally felt by the representatives of the various countries at these international gatherings that Ireland has not played its full rôle at these gatherings. It is a pity that we have been hesitant in playing our full rôle in the councilchamber of the Council of Europe. It is a pity that we have not thrown our full weight and our undoubted prestige as a great Christian people into building up the defence of Western Europe. I should like to see a more defined policy by the present Government and a clearer indication by the Minister of what his views are of our rôle in the Council of Europe.

What I have said should be the aim of our foreign policy is very largely commonplace. It is commonplace that our policy should be designed towards maintaining our national sovereignty. We are all agreed that our foreign policy should be directed primarily towards the unification of our country. I think we should also be agreed that our foreign policy should be designed towards assisting in the maintenance of world peace. At the moment there is no reason why these three aspects of foreign policy should be mutually incompatible. We must make a positive approach on economic lines towards the economic integration of our country and if we make a positive approach on constructive lines towards playing a greater rôle in the politics of Western Europe all the principal ends of our foreign policy will be nearer to achievement.

Mr. Finan

It is only to be expected that the question of Partition will loom largely in the debate on this Estimate. In the past practically all the debates on this Estimate have centred round that all-important problem. If, as a result of such contributions some means can be evolved to bring about the end of Partition that will be very desirable.

I share the view of Deputy Declan Costello that a closer co-operation between representatives of the Six Counties and representatives of the Twenty-Six Counties on every possible occasion must lead eventually to a mutual understanding. It is only by close co-operation in the economic field and in every field, except the political field, that we will get a proper understanding of the mentality of the people of the Six Counties and vice versa.I believe that at the moment there is misunderstanding on both sides. I remember discussing this questionmore or less at a conversation level with a representative of the Six Counties some four or five years ago, Sir Ronald Ross, and he propounded a similar view to the one I have just propounded. He believed we kept too aloof from one another thereby giving ourselves no opportunity of understanding one another. We, on this side, asserted that Ireland is one and indivisible. They, on the other side, assert that they are a different people, with a different way of life and a different outlook and that they must maintain their independence. He believes that the more often the representatives of the Twenty-Six Counties meet the representatives of the Six Counties the nearer we will come to the ending of Partition.

Nobody in the Six Counties believes that the present situation can go on for ever. Some may pretend to believe it but they recognise that it is unnatural. No honest effort has so far been made to reach agreement. I believe that agreement and unification will come gradually. No other solution would be acceptable to the people on either side of the Border. But unification will not come even gradually if we stand apart from one another and fail to co-operate with each other.

I believe schemes like the Erne electrification scheme and the G.N.R. agreement will help. No opportunity should be missed in the economic field of meeting and discussing with the people of the North matters of common interest. It is true that America can play a big part in the solution of this problem. She holds a strong hand in relation to this matter, and particularly in relation to Britain's interest in it. I know that Britain has always maintained that this is a purely domestic question. I know that it has been said that they will agree with any solution of the problem provided it is mutually satisfactory but there is no doubt that recognition by the people of the Six Counties of Britain's obvious determination to maintain that status so long as it suits her will perpetuate the present unnatural division of our country for a long time to come. It is here that America can influence British opinion.

Any representative of this country who, either at home or at international conferences, says anything to antagonise the great American people is not doing a service to our people in the solution of this problem. That has unfortunately occurred in the past. If we antagonise the Americans we will lose very good friends. There is a growing feeling here that it is the thing now to deride the Americans. Apart from the fact that America is to-day the leading world power, there are many of our own people living in America. Yet, Deputies and Senators go out and insult the American people and in doing so they are not making any contribution to the solution of Partition. I believe the Americans could and would bring sufficient pressure to bear on Britain to compel a solution of the Partition problem here.

Reference has been made to the Council of Europe. I happen to know a good deal about that council and I can tell Deputy Declan Costello that the Irish delegates to that council have played a very important part in all the deliberations of that council. It was most edifying in 1949, the first year in which that council sat, to find delegates going out from the different Parties here who could say very hard things about one another at home but who spoke with one voice on this question of Partition when they spoke in Strasbourg. They were animated by one mind.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not like interrupting the Deputy, but the Chair would like to know if we are discussing the two Estimates together, because the Council of Europe comes under international co-operation.

General Mulcahy

I have a motion to refer that back, but I merely want to refer it back on a particular point of a technical nature.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is anxious to avoid a duplication of the discussion.

General Mulcahy

I do not intend to open any broad discussion on the policy in relation to the Council ofEurope or anything else, and, if it is agreeable to the House, we can consider that the general discussion will take place on this motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

On policy?

General Mulcahy

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good.

Mr. Finan

As I was saying, the manner in which the Irish delegates acted at that debate was very agreeable. I think Ireland's main reason for entering the Council of Europe was to ventilate the whole question of Partition. I can assure Deputy D. Costello and every Deputy here that, by the time that first session ended, there was not any delegate from any of the 14 countries represented who was not made fully aware of the situation which exists here. To my mind, they had a very sympathetic understanding of the whole position. I feel that that was important from the point of view of Partition. It may be that it might have been better timed, and, personally, I thought that myself. The timing may not have been quite as good as it might have been. I know that the impression was created by the British people, before the Irish delegates arrived, that they were purposely going to wreck the Council of Europe.

I want Deputies to remember that in 1949 a very tense situation existed on the Continent. That was the period during which those concerned with the defence of Western Europe were talking about the Pyrenees as "the first line of defence". The people of Europe did not feel very happy but they felt that in the Council of Europe they had a body in which they might congregate to arrange for defence. The fact that it was suggested that a delegation might be going there to wreck their hopes did not augur a very hearty welcome for the Irish delegates. Notwithstanding that, before the close of the session, the delegates from other countries were well satisfied that the Irish people had an important problem to air and that they did it well. They were also satisfied that if that problemcould be remedied Ireland could and would play a very important part in Western Europe.

Ireland's interest, naturally, in the Schuman Pool is not very great except from the point of view of being a consumer country. Indeed, even in that regard, she has not a very great interest in the Schuman Pool. It is possible that coal and steel will be made available at a lower price than the British prices for the reasons that labour is much cheaper on the Continent than it is in Britain, that the sources there are more accessible and more developed and particularly because, in the future, those industries will have the advantage of the technical and skilled assistance of German engineers who, I believe, cannot be surpassed. It is quite likely that a combination of those important factors will bring about cheaper coal and cheaper steel in the Schuman countries and that Ireland might then become a customer. If that situation developed to a very serious degree, it would have consequences on British coal and steel—consequences which would affect us very seriously. Coming, as I do, from the West of Ireland, I am only too well aware of the vast amount of emigration that takes place from our western seaboard to Britain. In fact, in recent years, emigration, unfortunately, is not confined to any one particular area of our country.

There is scarcely any county now from which people do not emigrate. Any dislocation of the industrial life of Britain will be reflected here and on our people. Therefore, though we might gain a small advantage in purchasing cheaper coal and steel from the Schuman countries, we might lose far more from the point of view of our people who seek employment in Britain. Unless there were a very great disparity in price, I doubt if it would be good policy on our part to purchase from the Schuman Pool countries rather than from Britain. In the same way, the opposite applies with regard to the Green Pool. We are a producer country. To-day, food on the Continent of Europe is very much dearer than it is here. It is difficult to understand why that is so,but the fact remains that you can get only a very modest lunch practically anywhere on the Continent for £1. Naturally, they are anxious to bring down the price of food and we, being an agricultural producer country, are not anxious for that reduction from the point of view of our agricultural community.

I do not want to go into too many details on this question now, but there are good reasons why the Irish delegates and the Irish representatives took the action and the part they took both in regard to the Schuman Pool and to the Green Pool. Our attitude was very clearly defined with regard to the Green Pool by our Ambassador in Paris, Mr. Cremin. From personal knowledge, I can say that the interests of this country can always be safely reposed in Mr. Cremin's hands. I doubt if we could have a more capable or worthier representative at any international conference.

I want to summarise what I wish to convey. Firstly, the importance of the closest co-operation with the people of the Six Counties on all economic matters. Secondly, the necessity for getting, on every possible occasion, the interest and influence of the American people and the American Government in respect of the vital question of Partition. Thirdly, that our delegates at any international conference should never forget that, though they have a vital part to play with regard to developments among other countries, the interests of Ireland must come first.

I shall conclude with a few remarks in relation to our application for membership of U.N.O. I do not know whether or not my opinion is shared by the Minister, the Department, or anybody else, but I feel that this country has been very humiliated by the continuous hanging-on and knocking at the door of U.N.O. for admission. I think that the decent, intelligent and noble thing to do would be to indicate quite clearly that we are withdrawing our application for membership of that organisation and that we are no longer interested in it.

Mr. Kyne

On behalf of my Party Ishould like to join with the Minister and Deputy Costello in welcoming back to this country, alive and well, thank God, Monsignor Quinlan. I trust that his return is an indication of the easing of the tension which has existed between the East and the West, that it will mark a solution of all the questions outstanding between the different peoples of the world and that we may now hope to see peace amongst the peoples of the world.

On last Wednesday I asked the Minister a question in connection with the report of a radio talk given by the Irish Ambassador in the U.S.A. The object of that question was not to endeavour to misconstrue what the Ambassador said or to put the Minister or his Government in any false position. It was intended to draw the Minister's attention to the particular report and to give him an opportunity of clearly stating the position of Ireland in regard to neutrality and to deny any inferences that could be drawn from the report, a copy of which I handed in with my question. I was surprised that the Minister in his reply took the line of denying that the interpretation which I have placed on the report could lawfully and rightly be drawn from it. I had hoped that he would have taken the opportunity to place on record without any doubt the actual position of Ireland on the question of neutrality.

I will quote for the House just a portion of the report which appeared in the Irish Pressof 30th March, 1953, and I suggest that the inference I drew was not an unusual one and was one that was likely to be drawn by people in this country and by people outside it:—

"Mr Hearne described Ireland's foreign policy as neither neutral nor isolationist. ‘It is a policy of non-participation until we are satisfied that the principles of the North Atlantic Treaty, which we entirely accept, are going to be applied to us as well as to every other member of the group', he said".

I suggest that a lawful interpretation of that would mean that should we getthese principles applied to us we would then become members of N.A.T.O.

Mr. McQuillan

When did he make that statement?

Mr. Kyne

The report is given in the Irish Pressof 30th March, 1953 and says:—

"Washington, Sunday:—The Irish Ambassador, Mr. John J. Hearne, said in Washington to-day that Ireland accepts the principles of N.A.T.O., but will not join it because Ireland is partitioned".

Is it not a fair interpretation of that report to say that if we were not partitioned we would be in N.A.T.O.? I wanted to give the Minister an opportunity of stating clearly that, irrespective of Partition or any other question, the neutrality of this country will not be bargained away for any particular object or for any particular thing.

Mr. McQuillan

Hear, hear!

Mr. Kyne

The importance of neutrality to this country is evidenced by the desire expressed by all political shades and opinions in this country. It is important to us and I suggest it is important to the world. I feel there is a need in this world to-day for small democracies clearly stating that under no circumstances will they be drawn into the orbit of one side or the other with the condition that under certain circumstances they would be compelled to go to war. It is desirable in the interests of peace that small nations like Ireland and Switzerland should clearly state that under no circumstances are they going to join any organisation that may eventually lead them into armed conflict. I would like to see Ireland placing on record that expression of opinion and I think it is desirable in the interests of Ireland and in the interests of the world.

I am surprised that Deputy Finan has taken the line that it is not desirable that the application of Ireland to enter the U.N.O. should be continued, because in that I believe there is no bargain where the neutrality of thecountry would be involved. There is a belief amongst some people that membership of U.N.O. would involve this country in a commitment, under certain circumstances, to take part in armed conflict. I would say to anyone wishing to know the attitude of certain small countries who are at present members of U.N.O., such as Switzerland and Sweden, that there is no such obligation. You contract only to be a member of a world organised group of nations who, should war break out between members, would in every way endeavour to see a peaceful solution of that war. I would feel that Ireland owes to itself and it owes to the world that the application should be continued, and, please God, with the easing of the tension between East and West, we may soon see a withdrawal of the veto that has up to this prevented our application from being accepted.

I know the Minister in his speech said that references to Ireland in the foreign Press were examined and if it was felt desirable steps were taken to rectify incorrect statements. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to a publication that has been sent to me from an Irish exile in England. I wonder if his Department has taken note of this article and if he has sent any contradiction and repudiation of it. It was published in the Daily Mirror,Thursday, 9th April, 1953, and it was written by a person signing himself Fergus Cashin. Of all the scurrilous, incorrect and insulting articles that I have seen at different times in foreign papers in connection with this country, I think this takes the lead. I will quote but two parts of it—because a thing like this should not be quoted— to give an idea of the contents:—

"Officially the Festival is called ‘An Tóstal' (Gaelic for ‘At Home') and was intended to be a three-week Festival of Irish art and literature. Then a small town in County Cork put an end to all that nonsense when it announced that its cultural programme consisted of: three dances, a film show, a céilí (an Irish folkdancing get-together), a hurling match and a game of pitch and putt. The name of the town is Blarney."

In another portion the article deals with the bowl of light:—

"The bowl looks like something out of an ice-cream parlour—stands 15 feet high in what appears to be a half-sunken submarine with fountains playing in it—and is the biggest joke of the festival. So six Civic Guards stand around to protect it."

It continues, even in a much more scurrilous manner, to describe the activities in other towns and cities of Tóstal committees. I would say that if the Minister's Department has not already noted that harmful article it should now take steps to repudiate such anti-Irish propaganda as is being published by British papers, that it at least should protest and endeavour to undo whatever harm is being done by this writer who, whether he is Irish or not, is trading under an Irish name. In conclusion, I should like to express the hope that the present easing of tension between countries in the West and countries behind what is now called the Iron Curtain will continue and that in a short space of time the peoples of the world will be permitted to live as it was ordained they should —in peace and harmony with one another.

Mr. McQuillan

I should like to say at the outset that I agree completely with the remarks of Deputy Kyne on the question of Ireland's position vis-à-visthe major world Powers of to-day. I think the article which he quoted here giving the remarks of our representative in the United States deserves serious consideration. It is very easy after a while to gull the people into the belief that the present world setup, with on the one side the American nation and its satellites, and on the other side Russia and her friends, is the outcome of a dispute between Christianity and paganism and that there is nothing else involved. If that were true, naturally the feelings of most Irish people would be in sympathy with the members of the group who represent Christianity. I believe that it is essential to remember that some of the countries who up to recently were under the influence of the so-called pagan States or who wereup to recently behind the Iron Curtain have for reasons best known to themselves decided to throw in their lot with the so-called Christian nations.

I wonder do many people in this country realise that if we were to give up our neutrality, it is quite possible we would be in the forefront with Marshal Tito to help him in his conflict with his former friends? I am sure nobody in this country desires to see that happen. I think it is essential that small democracies like Ireland and Switzerland should be there as an example to the rest of the war-torn world of how to live in peace, an example that might be followed by their bigger neighbours. I, for one, would not agree that we should alter our present status under any circumstances. I personally do not for a moment believe that any Party in this House would tolerate any change from the present arrangements but we must make our views clear to other nations of the world that have any doubt whatever about our stand in this regard.

The question of membership of U.N.O. was raised here, and again I find myself in complete agreement with Deputy Kyne. Whether we agree that U.N.O. has functioned satisfactorily or successfully up to the present does not enter into this. So far as we are concerned, it is representative of practically all the nations of the world and, that being so, there would be no question, if we were admitted to that assembly, of having to bargain our neutrality or of having to take one side or the other in any dispute on any question that arose for consideration. There is a big difference between membership of U.N.O. and membership of the North-Atlantic Treaty Organisation. There is a big difference between having our representative sitting in U.N.O. headquarters and having our representatives at Strasbourg listening to statements there.

I listened to Deputy Finan telling us what great work the Irish representatives have accomplished in Strasbourg, but one of the few thingsof which we heard in this country or to which publicity was given in the newspapers in regard to the activities of the Irish representatives in Strasbourg, was a discussion between Irish representatives and Scotch representatives on the relative merits of Irish and Scotch whiskey. There was a great deal of publicity given to that as one of the highlights of a discussion that took place in Strasbourg in which Irish delegates participated. There was also an intervention by one of the Irish delegates at Strasbourg in which he more or less suggested that, in the event of another war, all the children of Europe should be sent to Ireland.

I think that the main subject for discussion in this debate for years past has been the question of Partition. I listened carefully to the Minister's opening statements and I must say that I never heard a more pathetic or anaemic statement in my life. In the course of his introductory statement he told us that we had appointed a new honorary consul in Iceland, that we had a bulletin with a circulation of 6,500 for the benefit of journalists, telling them all about Ireland, and that his Department was working in collaboration, mark you, with C.I.E. and Fógra Fáilte in answering questions of foreigners who are interested in Ireland. He told us that £10,000 has been spent in promoting cultural relations. He did, of course, welcome, and rightly so, Monsignor Quinlan home from Korea. That was the sum total, or what I interpreted as the sum total, of his contribution. I hope he will have a lot more to say in his reply.

I had hoped that we would have heard a little more about the question of Partition. I want to say now that we have in this House Deputy Aiken, the Minister for External Affairs, and up to a few minutes ago Deputy Mulcahy was sitting opposite him. Nobody will deny that, when the fight was at its toughest for the measure of freedom which we have here to-day, these two men and their comrades did tremendous work. I want to bring theminds of Deputies forward from 1922 to 1953—a period of 30 years. These two Deputies have sat opposite each other in this House, members of two different Parties, and they have spoken about Partition for 30 years. I ask anybody here to-day whether, with all the talk, all the repetition and all the suggestions we have had since 1922, we are to-day any nearer a solution of the problem of the Border?

We had the suggestion by Deputy Declan Costello that there should be more co-operation with the North, and we had Deputy Finan telling us that he was talking to a Unionist member in the North four or five years ago who told him that we did not mix enough, that the people on both sides of the Border should get to know each other better. It is not very long since a motion was brought into this House in connection with the desire of a number of Deputies to throw Dáil Éireann open to the representatives of the North, whether Unionists, anti-Partitionists or anything else, and the very same Deputies who talk about co-operation with the North walked into the Division Lobbies to vote against their admission to the House. Let us be practical about the whole thing.

I agree that we must have co-operation and must hold out the hand of friendship to the people in the North, but I want to pose this question for Deputies: how long would Partition last if Britain took her dirty hands out of the North of Ireland? Economically, the Six Counties would have no hope of existing on their own. The proof is there—we need not go into the details—but there can be no denial of the fact that, as an economic unit, the Six Counties have no hope of survival on their own, if Britain took her hands away. Britain has no notion of removing her control or her power from the six north-eastern counties. With centuries of cunning behind her statesmen in her foreign policy, Britain is able to suggest to the peoples of other nations that the question of Partition is one solely for Irishmen to solve.

We all know perfectly well that Britain has a vital interest in theNorth of Ireland, a vital tactical interest, especially in military affairs in relation to keeping bases in the North of Ireland, and anybody who has read Mr. Churchill's speech when the war was over will realise how much Britain appreciated the fact that she had a grip in the North of Ireland. He let the cat out of the bag in that speech when he more or less suggested that he had intended for a while to grasp the Twenty-Six Counties as well as the Six Counties during that period. Thank goodness, he was frightened off, or, at any rate, was forced to think twice about taking over this portion of the country.

We will have to be very practical about this whole question of the North. Deputy Declan Costello suggested that amongst the other barriers between the Twenty-Six Counties and the Six Counties was the language barrier. There is a language barrier and in this House to-day we had the Minister reading his statement on his Estimate in Irish to a handful of Deputies, 50 per cent. of whom did not understand what he was talking about. He read that speech in Irish and an English version was handed around the House so that Deputies would know what he was talking about. Let us be sensible about this. If we had 20 or 25 representatives from the Six Counties here to-morrow, in what language would a speech on an Estimate be read?

I am glad the former Minister for External Affairs has come into the House because there is one matter upon which I hope he will give some information to the House, that is, in connection with his visit a little over two years ago to America when he flew to see President Truman. I had great hopes at that time that this visit of the then Minister to President Truman meant that we were to have the whole might and weight of the American nation thrown behind us in our fight to end Partition, but we heard very little about the results of that meeting, in spite of the fact that that meeting was used in the course of a general election to point out that the then Minister was working on lines which would ensure, if he were giventhe opportunity, that Partition would be ended within a period of four years at the outside. We were given to understand that this sudden visit to President Truman had a good deal to do with the problem of Partition. Unless there was something terribly secret about the visit I hope the former Minister will enlighten us on what exactly took place at that time.

I might as well give my views now on those people who come over here to Ireland as allegedly representing anti-Partition views in the United States. We have had a number of gentlemen addressing meetings in various cities here for the past few weeks—telling us all about Partition and what we should do about it. These visitors have been accompanied by some northern anti-Partition people who have also suggested to us what we should be doing about Partition down here. As a matter of fact, not so long ago I listened to some of these anti-Partition representatives making public speeches on how the Border came to be there. Without being too critical of these people, I believe that talking in Limerick, Galway, Roscommon or Dublin will not improve matters. I do not believe it is worth wasting time talking in the Twenty-Six Counties about the ills of Partition. I do not want to be taken as suggesting that these people are insincere or anything like that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister would have no responsibility for speeches made by the parties mentioned.

Mr. McQuillan

I believe that any speeches and descriptions of that nature should be made in the area in which it is necessary to make them— in the six north-eastern counties. I think the people of those counties should feel that we know plenty about Partition here; that we know about the evils of Partition and that we are behind them completely in any action they may take or desire to take towards ending the evil that has divided. our nation for the last 30 years.

I have already said that, as an economic unit, the Six Counties could not last or hold out and that the evil genius behind Partition is Britain. The tragic part of it is that she has so much power and influence in the world and is in a position to put her views across on other nations that the question of Partition is purely a domestic problem to be solved by Irishmen themselves. We all know her form with regard to the nations under her thumb. We all know that as far as Britain is concerned mere talk will not force her to remove her grip from the six north-eastern counties. Talk on the part of the representatives of the present Indian nation did not achieve the freedom they have there to-day. Any country that ever came under British domination never got away from Britain by talk alone. I am convinced that Britain is not one whit worried about all the protest meetings that may be held in London in regard to Partition and is not one bit worried about all the protests our representatives make in Strasbourg.

I shall not pursue the matter any further except to say that if we have any hope of bringing the question of Partition before the world forum our only opportunity of doing that is by pressing as hard as we can for admission to U.N.O. I think that is the one place where our problem should be spotlighted. There is an opportunity there to spotlight our problem. I hope we do not follow the suggestion of Deputy Finan and others that we should now withdraw our application for membership of U.N.O.. I think we should press now harder than ever for membership. As soon as we get a chance to make our views known in that assembly, I feel sure the representatives we would send there would do a great job to embarrass the British nation and help to force her to change her attitude in regard to the North.

Mr. Blowick

I think there is not a home in this country that is not intensely gratified and pleased at the news contained in this morning's newspapers that the Right Reverend Monsignor Quinlan has arrived home safelyand in comparatively good health. We are all very grateful for that. I know that our kith and kin outside the country will be equally pleased and gratified to see he has come home safely. I think we should all feel that perhaps this is the first step towards the easing of the tension that exists in the Far East. Perhaps it may be an indication that the war there is about to terminate. I sincerely hope so. There is another aspect of this matter and that is the part that our neighbours across the water played in effecting the Right Reverend Monsignor Quinlan's release and exchange.

Mr. Dillno

Hear, hear!

Mr. Blowick

I cannot help feeling that perhaps that incident, small as it is to the British, may be the foundation upon which can be built a better understanding between this country and England. I think it will lead to a warmer friendship and a better understanding between the Irish and English people. I sincerely hope that this is only the beginning of many such acts of friendship between the two countries. There remains now only the one outstanding grievance, but perhaps this incident, the assistance which the British gave us in conveying Monsignor Quinlan home from Moscow, will shed a ray of sunlight and help to cement the friendship between the two countries. That, I think, would be for the betterment and improvement of relations on both sides of the channel.

It is unfortunate that some of Monsignor Quinlan's colleagues in the battle to bring light to the pagans in some of those countries are not with him to-day, particularly a western priest, the Reverend Father Canavan of Headford, the news of whose death only became certain within the last few days when Monsignor Quinlan and his colleagues were about to be brought home. I am sure that all Deputies, as well as the people outside, will agree with me when I say that we were saddened by the fact that some of his colleagues met their deaths by violence at the hands of some of the people in Korea.

A good deal was said during thecourse of the debate and also on previous occasions about the U.N.O. Might I repeat a suggestion that I put up to the Minister for External Affairs in this House in regard to a league of small nations? We could count the number of big nations on the fingers of one hand, but there may be up to 100 small countries in the same position as we in the Republic are. A league of small nations would prove of immense benefit, and I think the Minister for External Affairs should examine the possibility of inaugurating some such league. As a rule, small nations are the ones that suffer from aggression in time of war, or from greed on the part of some of the greater Powers. If most of the small nations of the earth could be got together in one solid group and would stand by one another loyally, they would constitute a powerful front if any of the greater Powers took it into their heads to be greedy or aggressive.

Both the last world wars were fought on the territories of small nations. The small nations were ruthlessly trampled upon. Their towns and cities were bombed and their people were crushed aside. The columns, the tanks and the armoured cars of the bigger nations simply hooshed their way ruthlessly over those countries. I think that, if the Minister could succeed in getting together a league composed of the small nations of the earth, it could become very powerful. If we had that, I think the larger Powers would think twice before attempting acts of aggression against the small nations. It would be well, I think, if such a league could be established and if there was amongst those small nations a fair amount of loyalty so that they would stand in with one another if any attempt were made to attack them. I think the suggestion is worth considering. That is not to say that we should not retain our membership of the United Nations if it is considered to be to the best advantage of this country that we should do so.

The question of Partition comes up here each year when this Estimate is under discussion. I cannot help reflecting on the attitude of the present Ministerfor External Affairs and of the present Taoiseach during the period when the inter-Party Government were sitting on that side of the House. The present Minister, and particularly the present Taoiseach, seemed to have got a travel mania. They were in the United States to-day, down in Australia to-morrow and in India some other day. They travelled all over the world as if some kind of madness had seized them, determined to do everything to end Partition at that particular time. But they did nothing at all about it during the 16 years they were in office before that. There was then a frozen silence on the whole subject. I remember, when I came into the House in 1943, how the Taoiseach used to look over here when some members of the Clann na Talmhan Party dared even to mention the fact that there was such a thing as a Border up in the North. The Taoiseach seemed to want to give the idea that he had the whole thing carefully in his own hands, and that the ordinary hoodlums of T.D.s who dared to mention Partition were doing damage and were making damaging speeches.

The very moment, however, that the inter-Party Government came into power in 1948, the present Taoiseach and the Minister set off to travel around the world. I thought we would never see them again. I was in terror that some American scientist might invent a rocket which would take them to the moon and leave them there with the inhabitants of the moon. But now that they are back in power again they are sitting there calmly and doing nothing except that we have some kind of document circulated by the Minister. I believe that 6,500 copies of it have been circulated. In a milk-and-water kind of way the Minister says that he knows that this particular document is meeting with approval from certain Press representatives from the point of view of giving information to the world about Ireland—not Partition, mind you.

I think that kind of unrealistic attitude on Partition is doing more damage to this country than anything else. The Border will eventually go but I believe that kind of thing isputting its abolition farther off. I am afraid that England, which must be watching us fairly closely, cannot help feeling at least the present Government are not sincere and do not care two hoots whether the Border is there or not. I think that at the very least the question of Partition should be kept in the limelight the whole time and should be stressed by our delegates at every opportunity that presents itself so as to let the world know the injustice that is being done to this country.

It has been pointed out that the existence of Partition is of advantage to Britain. Somehow, I do not believe that. I do not believe that it can be of any military advantage to England at the present time in view of the developments that have taken place in regard to the production of engines of war during the last ten or 15 years. I believe that, if the American people were made fully aware of the position, they would not stand for such an injustice. The Americans are a fair-minded people. They have done a great deal for the freedom, the enlightenment and the uplifting of nations, of peoples of every colour and race all over the globe, and I believe that if the true position were put before them in a straightforward and manly way, with none of this going behind doors or of whispering behind hands, it would be far better, because I believe that what is being done is doing irreparable damage. I have been told that by Americans who would be anxious to be on the side of right and to do the right thing. They imagine that we have some reason here in the South for holding the Border as it is and for that reason they do not take the question of Partition too seriously at all.

That view has been expressed to me by a few Americans. It would be well if they knew what the real position is. When Deputy MacBride was Minister for External Affairs he initiated a campaign which he admirably carried through at great personal inconvenience to himself, in the hope of keeping the question of Partitionbefore the Americans. I think that he did more good during his three and a half years in the inter-Party Government as Minister for External Affairs than has been done from 1921 down to the present. I say that because I like to give credit where credit is due. I think the present Minister could very usefully take a leaf out of his book.

Mr. Dillon

Instead of colloguing with the kangaroos.

Mr. Blowick

The kangaroos are not interested in the Partition of Ireland. The poor creatures do not understand what it means. The Minister made mention of Marshall Aid in the course of his opening speech. He slipped over, I think in a mean way, the fact that, attached to the Marshall Aid which this country received, was a free grant, if my memory serves me right, of over £6,000,000. Let me say that Deputy Seán MacBride, while Minister for External Affairs in the inter-Party Government, was largely responsible for the grant which America paid to this country, and this country can thank him largely for it. I think that the Minister, seeing now that he occupies the position of a Minister of State, might at least pay that compliment to his predecessor in office instead of slipping over it and almost showing an unwillingness to admit that we got that grant.

I think that ill becomes the Minister. I should like if, when replying, he would give us a little bit more information with regard to the projects which are to be submitted to the American Government in order to get the necessary permission or sanction for the spending of the remaining portion of that money here. He did not make himself very clear on that in his opening statement. Could the Minister, when replying, give us an accurate figure or even a nearly accurate figure of net emigration? Since the abolition of travel permits we are absolutely in the dark. We would be only too glad to welcome a decline in net emigration. I am afraid that that is not the case. In the West of Ireland I see trains and buses filled to capacity with boys and girls leaving the country. Duringthe period of the inter-Party Government we brought that almost to a standstill, and I regret very much to see train-loads of people from the poorer areas leaving the country.

Of course, the present Government has decided that everything the inter-Party Government was doing was wrong. They should change that attitude and adopt the one which we adopted. We did not condemn a thing simply because it was initiated by Fianna Fáil. If it was a good thing we continued it and improved it where possible. The present Government should adopt the same procedure. They are cutting down on afforestation and on the land rehabilitation project. They are making dangerous alterations in all these schemes, which were designed to stop emigration, to make the best possible use of the land and to try to induce the youth to stay at home. If the labour of our young boys and girls is valuable to a foreign country, such as America or England, it is much more useful to us.

Due to 700 years of occupation by a foreign power our country was very much neglected and when an Irish Government took over the reins of office in 1922 the country was largely undeveloped. We were still behind the times in comparison with many of our neighbours. There was tremendous leeway to be made up. One of the ways to do that is to induce our young people to stay at home and to imbue them with the idea that Ireland is worth living in and worth building up. A certain amount of progress has been made but a good deal more remains to be made. A person returning to this country after an absence of 25 or 30 years must be impressed by the improvement in housing and roads.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is widening the debate. We are dealing with the Estimate for External Affairs. The Deputy should relate his remarks to the various subheads.

Mr. Blowick

I am speaking on the question of emigration. We have no means of eliciting information as tonet emigration. That is a matter proper to the Minister's Department and I want to bring home to the Minister the necessity of keeping a check on it. The House should know exactly the number leaving temporarily and returning and the number leaving permanently.

I do not want the Minister to think that I am advocating a return to the system of travel permits which was necessary during the war. His Department should devise some method of checking what the net emigration is so that any member of the House who inquires can be given the information. It is a mistake to travel along blindly. On a few occasions recently the Taoiseach had to admit that he had no means of knowing the figure of net emigration, particularly as regards people seeking employment abroad. The whole question of inflow and outflow is mixed up somewhat on account of tourist and holiday travel and a certain amount of trouble would be involved in disentangling the figures. Members of the House should have some means of checking what the actual outflow is and what the net emigration is, particularly in respect of persons seeking employment abroad.

We get weekly or monthly returns of unemployment figures and know what the position is in that regard but I submit that those returns are not correct unless they are related to the number of young persons leaving the country. The Minister should make some effort to have the position examined, not sit back in careless idleness and apathy and simply allow the thing to go on. He should keep his finger on the pulse.

I am not advocating a return to the system of travel permits or passports which was a source of annoyance and irritation to travellers. I want to impress on the Minister that when a Deputy asks the Minister for External Affairs or the Taoiseach for the figure of young persons emigrating during a given period the figure should be available. The Minister should take steps to have these figures availablefor a Deputy who may want the information.

Mr. Rooney

With Deputy Blowick, I feel the nation should know what its losses are from emigration and that some attempt should be made to discover the figure of net emigration. A couple of years ago the Fianna Fáil Party were very anxious about this question of emigration and took advantage of the situation in which travel permits were required to get figures for propaganda purposes. They put against those figures the figures they had regarding the thousands of people returning from the second World War who had been fighting for Great Britain and tried to make the case that shortly before the change of Government a larger number of people came into the country than went out of it in a particular year. Those people were obliged to leave this country for an existence. The existence they had was in the ranks of the British Army during the second World War.

We ought to have some system of checking the numbers of our people travelling to and from the country. People travelling by plane, and I presume the same applies to people travelling by boat, are presented with a card asking them to state the purpose of their visit and the probable duration of their stay. That information should be sufficient to enable the number of emigrants to be calculated.

The position was changed during the period of office of the inter-Party Government because we reached a stage when we had to advertise for people— tradesmen—to come home in order to help us to pursue vigorously the building campaign which we set about towards the end of 1948.

The economic position has become so bad now that there are 30,000 more people unemployed to-day than there were this day two years ago and, of course, that figure does not include the people who could not get work and who were obliged to leave the country. As a member of a county council I have had experience of families who have moved into new housesduring the last two or three years clearing out and leaving those houses vacant and available for other families. That is happening in every part of the country. Every Deputy has had that experience. It is due to the economic conditions being brought about by the present Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are discussing the Estimate for the Department of External Affairs.

Mr. Rooney

I was relating it to emigration. Some Deputies referred to neutrality. Neutrality appeals to people. Before the last Great War the Taoiseach said that we could not hope to be neutral in the event of a world war. However, when the world war broke out it was found possible to form here a Council of Defence which included members of all political Parties and at that time neutrality was decided upon. At least, that is what it was called but I would ask was it neutrality or was it non-participation?

During the war a number of Allied airmen found themselves in this country by accident, probably as a result of an air crash. Those allies were not brought to the Curragh for internment. They escaped by one means or another across the Border, to serve in the army again, but when we had German airmen landing in this country under similar conditions, crashing here as a result of an air battle, they were interned in the Curragh. If we want to say that we were strictly neutral instead of being non-participants, I think the argument falls in view of these facts.

The Minister's statement to-day indicated that not much progress has taken place in his Department and that there has not been much change. He mentioned that an honorary consul has been appointed to Iceland and that the Department was particularly active in scattering leaflets during the year in relation to Partition. It was indicated also that a portion of his Department was engaged in connection with Córas Tráchtála, which was established not so long ago. That was a progressive step, as the expansion of our trade is a most important thingto be pursued by the Department of External Affairs. I was glad to see in his statement that some extra staff were taken on also to operate under the Department of External Affairs in connection with the expansion of trade. I hope that will have good results, and I regret that the Minister did not give us a report of the progress being made—which I am sure is being made—and the achievements of that section of the staff now engaged in connection with Córas Tráchtála.

Reference was made to economic co-operation with Northern Ireland. I am glad to see that progress is being made in that direction. We have only to look at the negotiations which took place concerning the G.N.R., between the Stormont Government and Dublin, and also the Erne hydro-electric scheme. In addition, of course, there has been the co-operation regarding the observatory established in Armagh. Those are matters for congratulation and encouragement, as they mean that our country is being treated as an economic unit and not as two separate nations, even if they are two separate economies. Even where there are two separate economies, there are many things in common between the northern portion of the country and this portion of it. That has been recognised in the interest of all parties concerned and of the nation in general.

One would think that the residents of the portion of Ireland under the Stormont Government are not Irishmen, but we have several examples where those people boast of being Irish and of being just as Irish as the people in this end of the country. Advantage was taken by Great Britain at a very critical time in our history, of the measure of sentiment that may have existed amongst residents in a portion in the North of Ireland concerning Great Britain at that time; and we have the situation that exists now and has been the cause of concern for such a long time.

Before the Fianna Fáil Party became a squealing political child in 1927, Partition was the main issue amongst them, but gradually, from 1932 on,they began to drift away from that plank in their platform and we now find that they are further away than ever from the issue. We find particularly that since the present Government came into office nothing in the nature of a practical approach has been made concerning this question. Apparently, the Minister has not followed in the footsteps of Deputy MacBride, who was in personal touch with President Truman shortly before the change of Government. Our people at that time were holding their breath awaiting an announcement concerning this issue. Unfortunately, the issue was lost in the Deputy Dr. Browne controversy which blew up at that time and no doubt put back the question of a solution for Partition for many years to come—unless there is a change in the policy being pursued at the present time by the Minister for External Affairs.

I would like to put this suggestion to the Minister concerning another measure where co-operation might be an advantage. Some years ago it was estimated that unless we have a population of 1,000,000 in Dublin City it would not be economic to arrange for television. That being so, we must depend on the possibility of receiving it from across the Irish sea. I was reading the other day the result of the tests which took place in Northern Ireland.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How is this relevant to the Estimate?

Mr. Rooney

I mentioned co-operation regarding the G.N.R. and the Erne scheme and I was going to suggest, if I am in order, that the Minister should examine the possibility of co-operation between Northern Ireland and Dublin in the provision of television services.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be a question for Posts and Telegraphs, not for External Affairs.

Mr. Rooney

Very well, Sir. In the years that have passed, we have seen that the political difficulties between this country and Great Britain have been resolved to a great extent. Weare recognised on an independent status in this part of the country. As a result, we have been able to carry on trade with Great Britain and expand it. Similarly, they have been able to meet us on better trading terms than previously. I would like to know from the Minister whether he has examined the possibility of expanding our trade with the Continent. The figures do not show that very much progress has been made in that direction. The former Minister for External Affairs, Deputy MacBride, was a very valuable commercial traveller for this country besides being the country's representative. He succeeded in opening up channels for new trade to various countries.

Mr. Cogan

Import trade rather than export.

Mr. MacBride

That is completely wrong.

Mr. Rooney

Deputy MacBride will be able to give the details concerning the new trade which he found for this country, with many other countries outside Great Britain. There is no use in my trying to answer the point made by Deputy Cogan as Deputy MacBride will be able to deal with that. There is a possibility that we may be able to get cheaper coal if the Schuman Plan is adopted. The possibility of getting coal from outside Great Britain was considered before. It was considered at a very critical time when the economic war was in progress, which the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs said was deliberately embarked upon by Fianna Fáil. An attempt was made then to import coal from Europe but it did not prove to be a success or to be economic. Up to the present it has been found that coal from Great Britain is the best proposition so far as cost is concerned.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce and not for the Minister for External Affairs.

Mr. Rooney

Very well, I will not proceed on that line. I wanted to make some suggestions to the Ministerfor External Affairs regarding the expansion of our trade. I went on that line because I know that the former Minister, Deputy MacBride, was very active in connection with the expansion of our trade and I felt it was a matter which should be referred to by the present Minister for External Affairs.

Mr. Cogan

I agree with you, Sir, that Deputy Blowick wandered a bit from external affairs when he referred to the question of afforestation. He was not only out of order in that reference but also untruthful, because I can say from the records of the House that the planting programme in regard to afforestation has expanded very considerably over the last two years. That is also true in regard to the numbers employed. I will get back now to external affairs. The most pleasant feature of the Estimate of the Minister is that there is a reduction for the coming year in the total cost of that Department. That reduction is welcome. It is gratifying that in some Government Departments, at any rate, efforts are being made to secure economies. It is particularly gratifying that an effort is being made to put the Irish News Agency on a commercial basis to make it pay its way. I am one of those who objected to the Irish News Agency, mainly on the ground that it was being financed by the Irish taxpayer to compete against ordinary commercial concerns and against Irish journalists who are endeavouring to earn their living. If the policy now is to compel the Irish News Agency, gradually or progressively, so to manage its business that it will be able to operate without State assistance, then there cannot be any serious objection to this agency.

I know that, in launching this news agency, the then Minister for External Affairs made a rather foolish statement when he announced that it would not deal in what he described as "hot news". Of course, we all realise that any news agency that does not deal with hot news can have very little hope of maintaining a commercial existence, because newspapers are not very much interested in news that is not hot.

However, the House, I think, will be prepared to wait and see how this news agency develops and how it will be able to operate within the reduced State aid that is being given to it. I understand that the people in control of the agency are journalists of very high standing and very considerable ability. There is, therefore, the possibility that they will be able to make a success of it.

In regard to its performing its main function, that is to fight for the reputation of this country in the outside world and to combat the evil influences which seek to disparage this nation, I wish it success. I also, of course, wish it success in its efforts to bring before and to keep before the whole civilised world this nation's claim for unity. The first right of any nation is to control its own territory and to be left in free and undisputed control of that territory. In propagating our claim to that fundamental right, the Irish News Agency can do very useful work, and I would be glad to hear the Minister say to what extent and how far that work is being carried out. In the performance of its duty of upholding this nation's honour and reputation, the news agency must set itself to combat the deliberate campaign of misrepresentation, abuse and ridicule which is being carried on against this nation throughout the whole English-speaking world.

I have described that campaign before, and I think the only proper description for it is, not a smear campaign but, even more expressively, a sneer campaign. Those who seek to be little this country do not now depict us as criminals. They paint us as imbeciles, queer people, people who are dominated and controlled by the Catholic Church, and not allowed to live a normal, healthy life. Only to-day in a newsagent's I came across a glossy American periodical which featured an article under the heading: "Life among the Irish." A more appropriate heading would have been: "Hate against the Irish." That article was written by an alleged Irishman, by a renegade who probably earns a substantial living ridiculingand defaming his own country. The only charitable thing one can say about him is to quote a phrase used by the late Canon Sheehan in one of his novels: "There is not in this earth or in the nether Hell a more contemptible being than he who, seduced by the glitter and glare of foreign civilisation, has come to despise his motherland."

A number of alleged journalists earn quite a substantial living by defaming their own country for the amusement of other nations. It is a hateful business and one that should be strongly condemned. I happen to know something about this particular article in this magazine. I know that a photographer visited my constituency and visited the homes of decent people living there. He took photographs under false pretences for the purpose of this article, as we now know. He went into farmhouses and said he would like to get an authentic picture of Irish life. Naturally, Irish people being always over-courteous to foreigners, he was helped in every possible way and given every facility.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Deputy tell us how this arises on the Estimate?

Mr. Cogan

It arises because we have in this Estimate provision for the Irish News Agency. I think the House should know what that agency has to deal with and what it has to combat and overcome. I want to stress the fraudulent means that are employed in the defamation of our country so that the Minister will do something to cope with the situation. This photographer went into the home of decent farming people. They live in a substantially built farmhouse containing five or six well-furnished rooms. One photograph was taken of the kitchen or living-room and that photograph was reproduced in this magazine. It completely misrepresents the particular family. The caption says: "Crowded quarters are another detriment to marriage. Family in Baltinglass lives in kitchen of small farmhouse." This is not a small farmhouse. It is a commodious farmhouseand the family is in no way deterred from marriage since the eldest is only 18 or 19 years of age, and one does not normally expect people to marry in their teens. Another point made in the article is that the Catholic Church, by its teaching, prevents Irish Catholics from marrying. This particular family are members of the Church of Ireland.

From that Deputies will see how fradulent and unscruplous are the methods adopted to defame this country. I urge the Minister to impress upon the news agency the necessity for dealing effectively with these matters. One can deal with a straightforward lie but it is difficult to controvert a sustained campaign of ridicule. One can only do so effectively by a carefully planned and deliberate campaign of publicity. The Irish News Agency should concentrate on throwing the limelight upon progressive work. There is no doubt that this nation has made considerable progress over the last 30 years. Our housing programme represents a tremendous achievement over the last 20 years. Our roads are being improved every day. We have many large-scale State-aided industrial enterprises, such as electrification and turf development. These are the things that should be publicised. So also should the work of enterprising industrialists who have built factories and operated them efficiently. The work of progressive go-ahead farmers should be publicised.

In the article to which I have referred there is a reference, together with a photograph, to a farmer in Baltinglass. His age is given as 39 years whereas in actual fact he is only 30. He has packed a tremendous amount of work and solid achievement into his short life. Yet, he is represented in this article as one of those frustrated people who has no opportunity of marrying in his own country. If the Irish News Agency was giving publicity to that particular farmer they would show what the young man has achieved, how he has improved his farm and increased his productivity one hundredfold over the last ten or 15 years.

Now that the news agency has been put on a commercial basis I hope some effort will be made to direct its activities in the interests of the nation. We know that its primary function is to deal with Partition. I think we might deal with Partition even more effectively by stressing the progress we are making rather than by merely debating the question of Partition and our fundamental rights in relation to the unification of our country. We should not be afraid to paint a true picture. We should not be afraid to hold up our heads because of what we have achieved. If we had that, through the Department of External Affairs and through the Irish News Agency, we would do useful work and advance towards the solution of the problem of Partition.

I am one of those who hold, in regard to Partition, that there is a great deal of value in the idea of extending co-operation with the Government in Northern Ireland. Some of us may not like the people who rule there but nevertheless we have to acknowledge that they are in possession there and that they have been in possession there over a long period. Over the past few years, we have met them on various occasions in negotiations in regard to commercial matters. Those meetings have been fruitful and beneficial and have, in a way, helped towards bridging the gulf between this part of Ireland and the separated area.

I think that that type of approach should be continued. It would be a good thing if there were a permanent council of some kind which would meet regularly to discuss matters of common concern between the Republic of Ireland and the Six-County area. I know that I am on very dangerous and perhaps contentious ground when I say that I think also that it would be a good thing if Northern Ireland were encouraged to withdraw a little more from the United Kingdom and even to achieve some form of dominion status so that there would be less external control and influence in the Six-County area than there is at present. These are all matters of importance which deserve to be carefullyweighed and carefully considered. The advantages and disadvantages must always be taken into account.

Before I leave the question that I have raised regarding the honour, reputation and prestige of this nation throughout the world, I think it is no harm to refer to the homecoming of Monsignor Quinlan. We rejoice that one of Ireland's national heroes and one of Ireland's great ambassadors has come home after a long period of intense suffering. It is a source of joy to everybody in Ireland that he has arrived home safely. Irrespective of whether one lives in the Six Counties or in the Republic of Ireland, and irrespective of religion, it is a source of joy to every Irishman to see this great man come back triumphant to his own country. It is also a source of great sorrow to the Irish people— sorrow mingled, perhaps, with a little pride—that a number of our missionaries abroad have lost their lives in the course of the present conflict.

It is no harm to consider the important contribution not only spiritually but nationally that these missionaries are making on behalf of the Irish nation. They represent a great spiritual empire and nobody can view these zealous young Irish men and women leaving our country to spread the faith in other lands without feeling pride in our nation, without feeling that Ireland is still the mother of saints and heroes and that she is not a nation that can be despised and ridiculed. I hope that everything the Minister can do through his Department to rescue and assist members of religious orders will be done unhesitatingly and unsparingly. We should also be grateful for the help that has been given us freely by British and other embassies, and representatives, in the work of assisting our Irish nationals in other countries and particularly where they are caught in the maelstrom of war.

I think that almost every Deputy in this House will feel a certain amount of sympathy with Deputy Blowick in regard to his suggestion about a league of small nations—sympathy because the ideal which he advocates seems so impossible in the cold reality of the present world situation. I do not thinkthat any of us would like to see Deputy Blowick, zealous as he is, going on a crusade to Czechoslovakia, Poland or to any of the Balkan States, advocating this new league of small nations. However, I do not think we should blame any man for being an idealist no matter how unreal his ideals may be.

While I have not always approved of the idea of membership of the United Nations. I think that, in the present world situation, our application for membership ought not to be withdrawn. I think it ought to be possible, in the present changed political atmosphere of the world, to look forward to the acceptance of Ireland's application and to Ireland's becoming a member of U.N.O. Ireland can contribute very valuable help towards the solution of world problems and our representatives can also, perhaps, achieve a considerable amount of good for our own nation—particularly in advancing the ideal of national unity.

I was glad, as a farmer, to hear Deputy Finan say to-day, as a result of his visit to the Council of Europe, that food prices are higher on the Continent than they are here. Many of us have almost been led to believe, from speeches we hear from time to time in this House and from some speeches we hear outside this House, that food is dearer in Ireland than anywhere else in the world. It is a good thing that Irishmen sometimes visit other countries and find out a certain amount of useful information. I think it is a good thing that Deputy Finan went to Strasbourg and found out that there are farmers in other parts of the world who charge more for the produce of their land and labour than the Irish farmer. It is always a popular thing to demand cheap food but, if cheap food means putting the farming community out of business, then I do not think it is a sound policy.

Deputy Rooney made one particularly foolish suggestion. He is usually good at making foolish contributions to debates here, but his suggestion that we should buy more coal from Europe and less from Britain does not seem to have much merit. Anyonewho has the real interests of this country at heart must acknowledge that the general national policy should be to cut down on imports of coal generally, but if we must import coal at all it is better to import it, all things else being equal, from whatever nation buys the greater portion of our agricultural production.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Rooney was informed that that question did not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Cogan

It did not arise. It was out of order and I think it was also a foolish suggestion. In regard to the Marshall Aid grant, I, like other Deputies, would like to have a little more information from the Minister as to the schemes towards which this grant is to be applied. It is true to say that the last E.C.A. representative here, Mr. Paul Millar, was very strongly in favour of that grant being used to a substantial extent for the subsidisation of lime. Being an observant visitor to this country he realised that lime deficiency had a good deal to do with our relatively low agricultural output. He fought against our then Minister for Agriculture and fought betterly and fiercely against him to have a lime subsidy scheme introduced and he did suggest that the grant moneys under E.C.A. would be made available for the purpose of subsidising the application of lime to our land.

I hope it will be used for that purpose, because it is one of the most useful purposes to which we could devote moneys granted to us by a friendly nation, and it is one of the ways in which we could contribute most to helping to achieve what that friendly nation had in mind when they gave us these free grants. What America hopes for from this country is that we will make our nation more productive, particularly in the matter of food, and thus contribute to the easing of the economic problems not only of our own nation, but of the whole of Western Europe. I do not think there is any way you could use money more beneficially for the increase of agricultural production thanby applying it in the form of lime for the land, and, notwithstanding the fierce opposition that was offered to that scheme by the particular Minister for Agriculture——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That subject would arise under agriculture.

Mr. Cogan

I want to refer to the general question as to whether we should give even conditional support to the North Atlantic Pact. Our Ambassador in America has been criticised for his statements in that regard, but we must take into consideration the realities of the existing situation. We cannot contemplate a situation in which Ireland, freed from all external control, occupation or aggression, would not be willing to co-operate with the civilised Christian nations of Western Europe in their common defence against aggression. Joining as a free nation with other friendly and free nations in an organisation to avert attack and to avert war does not mean entering into war. It means perhaps helping to preserve peace.

The last matter to which I want to refer is the suggestion that was made yesterday that one of our delegates to the Council of Europe should be objected to, apparently on moral grounds. I am against this "holier than thou" attitude on the part of any members of this House. We ought not to tolerate that kind of thing unless a Deputy has committed some terrible crime, such as murdering somebody on a church holiday or on a Sunday, or some other awful moral crime. There should be no objection to his being sent forward as a representative of this country if he is freely selected by his fellow-Deputies.

Mr. A. Byrne

With other Deputies, I wish to join in the welcome that the House has given to the Very Rev. Monsignor Quinlan on his homecoming, and I express the hope that it is the forerunner of the homecoming of many others, no matter in what walk of life they are engaged. The irony of it is that during the week of his homecoming we read in the papers thatindividuals are leaving this country claiming to represent Ireland but who I say, will misrepresent Ireland, and they get passports to go to Moscow. I have been asked specially to ask the question: did these few individuals who are going away to misrepresent Ireland travel on Irish passports or on British passports? I hope the Minister will tell us if his Department have freedom to issue passports to individuals to travel to Moscow to misrepresent the country. I hope he will make the position clear to the general public outside who are interested and who have written letters to me protesting against passports being issued to such individuals. I earnestly hope the Irish News Agency will make it clear that these people represent nobody in this country. There may be a few here and there who are advocating this policy but they do not represent 10 per cent. of the citizens of this country. It is to be hoped that that will be made clear.

I want to ask the Minister: are we making full use of our trade representatives abroad? I had reason to draw attention quite recently to the fact that there are two prices for steel in Great Britain and that for all our requirements of steel Ireland had to pay the higher price and as a result cannot compete against British dockyards for the building of ships in this country. That has caused considerable loss of employment in Dublin City and in other parts of Ireland, resulting in the emigration of great numbers of our shipbuilding workers. Our shipbuilding workers had to go abroad.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of steel purchases would seem to be one for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Mr. A. Byrne

When on a previous occasion I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether we were utilising to the full the services of our representatives abroad, and particularly our representatives in England, to claim that Ireland, as an external member, if you like, of the British Commonwealth, should get a certain priority in supplies of materials, I was told that that was a matter for the Department of External Affairs. I seethat these representatives are appointed and are paid by the Department of External Affairs, and I am suggesting that it would be no harm if the Minister would, through his representatives, seek agreements which would bring some benefits to this country by way of an exchange of materials. If we have goods to export to Britain, we do not want merely to get pound notes for them. We want steel and other raw materials in exchange for the goods we export, so that employment can be provided for our workers here at home, instead of compelling them to travel to get that work and of having to keep two homes. I put it to the Minister that our trade representatives should approach the authorities abroad and point out that we are exporting valuable goods to them and that we should get in exchange the raw materials we require.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a question that concerns the Department of Industry and Commerce, and it could be raised more appropriately on the Estimate for that Department.

Mr. A. Byrne

With great respect, I bow usually to your ruling, but when I raise this question with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, I am told that the trade representatives are subject to the Department of External Affairs. The question I am raising is, perhaps, a matter of joint responsibility, but our trade representatives abroad are largely responsible for keeping industry in full swing in this country.

A number of Deputies have referred to the question of emigration. That, again, is a matter with which the Department of External Affairs is concerned, inasmuch as I see an item in the Estimates for "extra receipts payable to the Exchequer—fees (stamps) for passports, visas and consular services, £17,000". It seems that there must be a great number of passports being issued still, although the necessity for passports has passed. I should like to ask the Minister what he is doing to try to solve this emigration problem. Thousands of our boys and girls are going to Britain inthe hope of getting employment. I want to say that, so far as housing is concerned, they are bearing no more hardship than British workers, who are badly handicapped by the shortage of housing due to the recent war. At the same time, I wonder are we paying sufficient attention to our young people who emigrate? Do we follow their activities or inquire about their welfare after they have left this country? The fact that they leave our shores should not end our responsibility so far as their future welfare is concerned.

I should like to deal briefly with the subject of Partition, to which reference has been made by a number of previous speakers. I think I can safely say that there is no Deputy who is not anxious to see Partition abolished. Would it not be wise for the Minister to use his influence to obtain an audience in this House for the elected representatives of Northern Ireland?

Donnchadh Ó Briain

The Six Counties.

Mr. A. Byrne

I do not suggest that they should be allowed to come here and discuss matters affecting only the Twenty-Six Counties, but I think that they should be allowed to come here periodically. I think that members of Parliament up there, who want to put forward their case in regard to Partition, should be allowed to appear in this House at least once a month or, at any rate, that they should be given an opportunity to state their case here so that we can read in the Official Debates an account of what exactly they want. If we keep the Nationalists from Northern Ireland out of this House and are just content to read the speeches they make here and there, which sometimes are not fully reported, and accept these speeches as the case from Northern Ireland, I think that would be wrong. Perhaps I should refer to the Six-County Parliament instead of to the Northern Ireland Parliament, because of the fact that that Parliament has jurisdiction over only six counties out of the nine in the province. Thesemen should have the right of audience here.

I remember in the old days, when a compensation commission was set up following the 1916-22 troubles, representatives of the Dublin Corporation were allowed to appear at the Bar of the British House of Commons to state their case. Having witnessed members of the municipality presenting their case at the Bar of the British House of Commons, I often thought why should the Northern Ireland representatives not have an opportunity of presenting their case at the Bar of the Dáil so that we would have an official record in the Dáil Debates of their memorials, requests and general requirements.

Looking down the list of salaries and wages paid in the Minister's Department, I must say that the Minister is not showing a very good example because the salaries paid to some of his officials are not in any way equal to those paid for comparable work in private concerns outside. I notice that a large number of the employees of the Department are in receipt of very moderate wages and allowances. I am wondering whether I can induce the Minister to press for an increase in these wages or at least press for the implementation of the award of the Arbitration Court so far as his staffs are concerned. The Minister must remember that Department staffs—the higher officials and the lowly paid workers—have sent protests to every member of the House in regard to the Government's attitude to the arbitration award. Every member of this House has been circularised pointing out that civil servants have to bear the brunt of the increased cost of living just the same as other members of the community.

I mentioned before during the debate on the Estimate for the Minister for Justice that members of the Garda and officials of that Department were very badly paid and that the time has come when the Minister and the Government generally should show a good example and pay decent wages. Only yesterday I was passing through a working-class area—and it was afairly good working-class area—when I was stopped by a woman who said to me: "Oh, Mr. Byrne, the price of potatoes has gone up again to-day." I want to know when will the Government pay their employees a reasonable wage? When will the Minister make a recommendation for the implementation of the arbitration award?

Finally, I should like the Minister to make some statement to the House in regard to the issue of passports for those who recently went to Moscow. I should like the Minister to say who is responsible in this regard and if he will get the Irish News Agency to make it clear to the world that they do not represent this country in any way. I ask him also, if departmental regulations will permit him, to make inquiries as to the number of Irish men and women now unemployed in Great Britain, as I think that is a matter that should be attended to.

I hope he will also consider the point I have made with regard to the Northern Ireland representatives sitting here for one day at the beginning of a session and taking an interest in matters such as water supplies, electricity, food prices, and so on, together with the question of reciprocity in the matter of old age pensions or workmen's compensation. I am not asking that they be allowed to vote on any big issue. I am merely putting forward their point of view and they have told me that they do not want to come in here to vote between the two big Parties or to take sides politically. They want the two big Parties, however, to get interested in a settlement of Partition by good will. It is only by good will and by showing progress in this part of the country, with willing exchanges of views on what is good for both parts, that Partition will be ended.

Mr. Gallagher

I join with the Minister in expressing sympathy with the relatives of the Irish priests who were put to death in North Korea. The parents of these Irish martyrs deserve the prayers of everybody in the country because their sons died in defence of the Catholic Faith. I join also in the welcome to Monsignor Quinlan and I feel that the reception which he gotfrom the Dublin people yesterday must be an answer to Deputy Byrne who is worried about the men who are going to Moscow. We attach far too much importance to gentlemen such as these who leave the country. It has been made perfectly clear in papers recently by the trade unions in Dublin and elsewhere that these men have no connection whatever with Irish trade unions, and I am sure the directors of the Irish News Agency have sufficient intelligence to spread throughout the world the fact that these two people are not representative of any Irish trade union. As an ordinary Irish worker, I should like that to be made clear.

The attack by Fine Gael Deputies on Fianna Fáil for our anti-Partition policy amuses me greatly when I realise that, overnight, Fine Gael, including Deputy Byrne and Deputy Dillon, were changed from ardent Commonwealth followers to Republicans. Whether that is a wise thing or not or whether it is to the advantage of the country, only history will tell but it is to Deputy MacBride's credit that he did change the Fine Gael people from Commonwealth followers to Republicans overnight. It is rather strange, however, to hear them attacking us now.

Earlier in the session, I referred to the news agency and reminded the Minister that he said when he returned to office that he proposed to give the news agency a fair trial. To his credit, he is carrying out his promise and giving it a fair trial. I asked how long the trial would last—a year, two years or five years—and I referred to the agency concerning itself with sporting matters. I felt that that was not a right thing for it to do, as there was sufficient coverage of Irish sporting affairs and they had very little to do with Partition. I am glad to see—I do not say that I was the cause of it-that since then the news agency have dropped their sporting activities. That was wise because reports of G.A.A. or soccer matches, speedway racing or dog racing, are of no interest to people outside the country and very little space in foreign papers will be provided for them. I am glad it has curtailed its activities in that respect.

The Minister says he is now prepared to see the news agency work on a commercial basis and that is the only way it can be done. I do not want to be accused of criticising it too severely, but I still feel that there should be a time limit to the trial, because quite a good deal of money is going into the news agency and it will have to come to an end sometime. If the Minister and the directors think they can make it succeed on a commercial basis and make some money, or at least hold its own, I agree they should be given the chance. As I say, I am pleased that they have given up their covering of sporting events, because it is not a paying proposition and there is no great value in it from the point of view of outside countries.

Deputy Finan made the point that he had found food prices in other parts of the world very different from here. I have travelled a good deal in connection with sport, and I found the same thing; and when people like Deputy Byrne get up here to speak of the cost of living, we should remember that things are not as bad here as they are in other parts. Naturally, we are concerned with what happens here, but we must be concerned with what happens outside as well. On the whole, we are not too badly off. Things could be better, but we are not as bad as some people would have us believe.

I got rather a fright when Deputy Byrne said he was protesting against the application by some persons for a passport to go to Moscow, because I had just made an application to go to Poland in connection with sporting activities, and it was rather a coincidence that he looked over at me when he spoke about his protest. I should like to go to Poland to referee matches and see how the people live there. Then I would possibly be able to tell Deputy Byrne more about it. I was relieved to discover that he was not accusing me of going behind the iron curtain for other reasons.

I think that the publications in connection with Partition which the Department of External Affairs are sending out at the moment are goodand interesting documents and should interest everybody. Whoever deals with those publications in the Department of External Affairs deserves great credit. They are fine publications in every way, and are well presented. I, for one, appreciate them. Everywhere I go I bring as many as possible of these pamphlets with me. They are certainly appreciated. I think that the Department is doing a very good job in that direction. I suggest that they should keep up the good work, because it is appreciated very much.

In conclusion, I should like to see the news agency put on a proper basis. It should not take so much money from the Exchequer. It may have its good points, but there should be a limit. I hope the news agency will be put on a proper, sound, financial basis, and that it will make money as quickly as possible.

Mr. MacBride

I, too, would like to express the general feeling of pleasure that exists at the homecoming of Monsignor Quinlan. It is certainly a matter for satisfaction that Monsignor Quinlan should at least have been able to come home. The Irish people, I am sure, will rejoice at his homecoming.

I would also like to express satisfaction at the fact that the Minister is about to appoint an honorary consul to Iceland. Iceland is a small country which has many links with Ireland. It faces many of the problems which we face here. Like out island, Iceland is a small island in the Atlantic, and inevitably has many problems akin to our own. The fact that it is a small country and not a big Power should not prevent us from developing friendly and close relations with it. I often thought, indeed, that, in addition to appointing an honorary consul, the Minister for External Affairs might well undertake occasionally to visit Iceland and establish direct contacts with the Icelandic Government.

One matter, for instance, which is of common concern is the question of the territorial fishing limits. I raised this question on a number of occasions in this House but, so far, I am afraid Ihave not got much satisfaction from the Minister and his colleagues. There may or may not be good reasons for the apparent lack of interest in that regard. Nevertheless, I mention it now to indicate one way in which we might benefit by closer association with the Icelandic Government.

The question of our territorial fishing limits is one of tremendous importance nationally and also for our fishing industry. The Norwegian Government extended its fishing limits in accordance with its concept of international law. That right was challenged by the British Government and the matter was referred to the International Court of Justice at The Hague, where a decision was given in favour of Norway. The Icelandic Government acted immediately and extended its fishing limits in accordance with the decision of the International Court. The net effect was to increase substantially the territorial fishing limits of Iceland.

We constantly suffer here from poaching by foreign trawlers. Many of our best fishing grounds have been severely damaged by foreign trawlers. I think we should have acted with a good deal more speed. So far, it has been impossible to receive even an indication from the Minister as to what the attitude of the Government is in regard to the decision of the International Court of Justice at the Hague. The application of that decision to our territorial fishing limits would, I think, increase very considerably the area from which we could keep the foreign trawlers. The net point at issue is whether the base line of the three-mile or five-mile limit should be determined by reference to straight lines from the islands and peninsulas that surround our coast or whether is should follow the contour in general.

It should certainly have been possible for the Government and the different Departments concerned to have examined the position by now. At first when I asked question, having read a number of reports in the newspapers, I was told that the Government had not even got a copy of the decision of the International Court. Then I was told they were going toobtain and consider it. I suppose I asked about a dozen questions in the course of the year as to whether they had considered it and I always got the answer that the matter was still under consideration. The Minister should try to speed up consideration of the matter. I know that probably it is not the fault of the Department of External Affairs but that of the is not the fault of the Department of Agriculture, who deal with these matters and who may have certain views. I think this matter should be disposed of at an early date.

While on this subject I think that if the Minister gets an opportunity of indicating in any way the interest of the Irish Government in the stand taken by the Icelandic Government he should do so. The Icelandic Government took its stand on the decision of the International Court of Justice at The Hague. It was immediately subjected to pressure of a very strong character by the British Government. First of all a number of notes were sent to the Icelandic Government protesting strongly against the decision of Iceland to extend her fishing limits. This was followed by threats of an economic boycott and in some cases an economic boycott was attempted against Iceland, a small country weaker than ours.

We have often found ourselves faced with similar questions in the past and have always been grateful for any gesture of sympathy, even if only a gesture, that we received from other countries. We, as an island nation, should indicate our sympathy with the attitude which the Icelandic Government have taken up in this matter. My only regret is that the Icelandic Government should have been more active in the matter than ours. We should have been able to move side by side with them in the assertion of our fishing rights. However, it was not my intention to raise the matter at this stage.

I would like to take this opportunity of saying a word of welcome to the new American Ambassador who has been appointed and who, I understand, iscoming to Ireland next week. Mr. William Taft is not merely the grandson of one of the most famous and distinguished of American presidents but is, in addition, a friend of Ireland. Mr. and Mrs. Taft were here for a period of time in connection with the E.C.A. programme and, during that time, I think everybody who had any dealings with Mr. Taft appreciated his very sincere and genuine interest in this country. I am extremely glad that he was the choice of the President of the United States for this post here. We are lucky to have a man of his sympathies and a man of his ability to discharge this function here.

Now, coming to the statement made by the Minister in introducing his Estimate, I think it is a pity that the statement made by the Minister in introducing an Estimate here should be so completely devoid of any indication whatsoever as to what the foreign policy of this State is, if any. From beginning to end of the statement there is not the slightest indication that this State has a foreign policy: that this State is even aware of the fact that it is usual for a country and a Government to have a policy in regard to external affairs.

We are a young nation, with little or no experience of external affairs or of the running of foreign services. Anybody would probably still think that the Department of External Affairs was an unnecessary luxury and would probably fail to appreciate the importance of its work: to appreciate even the important economic results that flow from the work of the Department. All this makes it all the more necessary that the political head of the Department should, at least, once a year, seek to give a general outline of the assessment which he makes of the international situation. I think the Minister must be the only Minister of Foreign Affairs or of External Affairs in the world who can get up here and introduce his Estimate without even mentioning that there is an international situation in the world, or mentioning that we have any policy. I think he must be unique in that position.I cannot visualise from any experience I have that that could happen in any other country. I do not think that the Minister will be able to find one other Minister for Foreign or External Affairs in any other country in the world who can get up and say nothing about foreign policy.

Apart from the fact that, on account of our lack of experience or lack of tradition in regard to foreign services, which makes it all the more necessary to make the country aware of the functions of the Department of External Affairs, I think there is another aspect to this silence on the part of the Minister, a silence which, on the first occasion, I was inclined to excuse on the grounds that he probably had not got his feet properly into the Department and had not time to consider policy generally, and, therefore, preferred to remain silent. But that, of course, no longer applies. He has been there now for two years, and should know by now what policy his Government is pursuing.

Another reason which, I think, makes it desirable that the Minister should give a review of the international situation when he introduces his Estimate, at least once a year, is that he is in possession, naturally enough, of reports from the various diplomats, embassies, Ministers and consuls which we have throughout the world. He, presumably, receives reports from abroad. He, presumably, receives reports which enable him to make some assessment of the international position. I can well understand, of course, that these reports are not for publication and that they contain many things which should never be disclosed, but it does seem to me that the House is entitled to have from the Minister at least his assessment, based on those reports, of the international situation generally.

We have seen, for instance, reports recently in the papers that it is possible that the opposition of Russia to the admission of this country to U.N.O. may be withdrawn. Surely, we are entitled to have some indication from the Minister as to what his policy is with regard to that. Firstof all, is it likely that the objection will be waived, and, secondly, if it is waived, what is the Minister's intention with regard to it?

I think, accordingly, that the Minister should seriously consider altering the practice which he has made of getting up in this House and introducing the Estimate for hisDepartment without saying one single solitary word in regard to the policy of his Department. I move to report progress.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 29th April, 1953.