Deputy Corry and Deputy O'Gorman gave notice of their desire to raise the subject matter of questions 18 and 19 on to-day's Order Paper on the Adjournment. Deputy Corry.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Youghal Bridge.
To-day I addressed two questions to the Minister for Local Government in regard to a very grave position in Youghal town. We hear a lot about bureaucracy from time to time. The livelihood of those people of Youghal is at stake in this matter and it is a very grave one for all of us who are their representatives here. I asked the Minister the following question:—
"If, in view of the evidence given at the Youghal bridge inquiry to the effect that the reconstruction of the present bridge was feasible and would reduce considerably the burden on the ratepayers, he will reconsider his decision to make an Order for the construction of a new bridge."
I based that question on the evidence given at an inquiry at which I attended for the full period of three or four days in Youghal. I listened to every title of evidence that was given there and heard both sides of the story. I suggest to the Minister that he and I are mere laymen. We do not pretend to know anything about bridge construction. The authority that was called in in connection with Youghal bridge by the Youghal Urban Council was second to none in this country and had far more experience than either the engineer employed for the preparation of plans for the construction of the bridge, or the engineers of the Local Government Department.
In support of that contention I want to say that Mr. McNamara, the engineer concerned, is an engineer of 30 years' experience at home and abroad, is a master of engineering of the National University of Ireland and full member of both the London and the Irish Institutions of Civil Engineers. He is the only consultant in this country engaged during the past few years in supervising simultaneously the construction to his own design of both fixed reinforced concrete and steel opening span bridges. Among his Irish bridges are the new opening bridge across Achill Sound, recently completed and functioning satisfactorily, it being the largest of its type in this country designed here and fabricated and constructed by Irish contractors; the new fixed reinforced concrete bridge at Burrishoole, Newport, construction of which is now finished; and designs of proposed new opening span bridge at Belmullet, and for partial reconstruction of Athlone town bridge in reinforced concrete and incorporating new opening span. Trunk road bridges abroad for which Mr. McNamara was responsible included, in Ceylon, fournew fixed type in reinforced concrete, seven in steel, one being opening span type; and reconstruction of two city ones in reinforced concrete.
My reason for saying all that is that I want to put before the House the qualifications and position of the engineer who was called in and who recommended the reconstruction of the present Youghal bridge. I say without fear of contradiction that those qualifications are far higher than the qualifications held by any of the judges in the Minister's Department.
The Minister has had the evidence that was given at the inquiry. The very low sum that was set out, which apparently is being recommended, was £335,000 and that was for a 20-foot wide bridge and was exclusive of all the road approaches. The Department recommend a 30 foot 6 inches wide bridge which, if we take it on that basis will cost at least £500,000, without considering the road approaches. The whole road is liable to landslides from above and on the estimate of the Cork County Council engineer the cost of new road approaches is at least £36,000.
Against that the proposed reconstruction would cost us £250,000, which is half the amount that would be expended on a new bridge. I asked the Minister if he would reconsider the position in view of that.
The Minister replied that a new bridge was the most economical of the various practicable proposals put forward and that he was satisfied that the existing bridge could not be reconstructed at the cost suggested in certain evidence given at the inquiry. That was Mr. McNamara's evidence. Mr. McNamara's proposals are based on the actual cost for the Achill and Newport bridges, brought up to date by reference to any changes in prices and on 30 years' experience of bridge building, both here and abroad. Are we to take the opinion of any engineer in the Local Government Department against that?
The Minister went on to state that no reconstruction scheme could be undertaken without the bridge being closed to traffic for a period of from two to six years. Mr. McNamarastated at the inquiry, and based his professional reputation on it, that the period would be from nine to 12 months for the total reconstruction of the bridge and also that transport could continue over the bridge while it was in course of reconstruction. The only time he would have to close it is for lifting out spans and putting in others, closing about once a month, generally in the night time. You have there the opinion of an engineer who has built the largest bridge in this country and several others in this country which are proof of his ability. You have his opinion, on which he is staking his professional reputation of 30 years' standing. I have here plans showing the manner in which transport can be carried on during the reconstruction of the bridge.
Will the Deputy play fair with his colleague, Deputy O'Gorman, and allow him time to speak?
I will play fair with everyone, but I want to make my case. That is the position and on that I am basing my case that this is a matter for reconsideration by the Minister and his Department. I suggest to the Minister that he should get some expert advice on this matter. I also wish to raise the matter of the area of charge for the bridge. The Minister has relieved Cork City of liability on the ground that the people of the county were not asked to pay anything in connection with Parnell bridge in Cork City. I do not want to say anything about Parnell bridge, although I know it fairly well. A comparison of Parnell bridge with Youghal bridge reminds me of a story told by the Minister of what a certain gentleman would do if he were in good order. A comparison of the cost of erecting Parnell bridge in the centre of the City of Cork with Youghal bridge is a damned good joke. The increasing tendency on the part of the State to put the load on the rural community is unfair and unjust. How often would people from Cork City and Waterford City pass over Youghal bridge in comparison with people from outlying districts inCork County, some of whom have not enough to bring them to Cork City, not to say to Youghal? A check was kept on the number of registered vehicles from Cork passing over Youghal bridge for a month and it was found to be 23 per cent. Realising the position, the Waterford Corporation decided that they would pay 3d. in the £ of a levy for the Youghal bridge. The Minister and his Department said: "We will relieve you of that obligation. That can be met by the country boys." If that is the position with regard to Youghal bridge, I can promise the Minister that it will stay there for many a year.
The Deputy might allow Deputy O'Gorman to speak now.
I do not wish to interfere with anybody. I have made my case as fairly as I could, but I certainly would not like to cut out my colleague Deputy O'Gorman.
The matter of Youghal bridge has caused considerable worry to the people of Youghal for the last 14 or 15 years. The people of the town have suffered considerably during that time, particularly from the commercial point of view, owing to the placing of barriers on the bridge which impeded the flow of traffic. There is a long history behind this bridge. Having waited so patiently for many, many years to see something done in connection with this bridge, I am glad that the matter has come before the House at last. The Minister was down in Youghal six or eight months ago, and was interviewed by a very representative body of townspeople about the matter and stated that he would do his best to expedite the construction of a new bridge or the reconstruction of the present one. Youghal had a considerable amount of trade with Waterford and has suffered considerably because that trade has been diverted to other places. Since the bridge was more or less closed to heavy vehicular traffic, it has been very difficult for the townspeople to make a living. Nobody realises more than I do the adverse effect on the trade of the town during that time.
I think I am voicing the feelings of the vast majority, if not 100 per cent. of the townspeople, when I say that they do not want a bridge erected any further up the river than the site of the present bridge. During my five years in the Dáil, I have been promised by Ministers that the bridge would not be put further up the river. But, at the back of my mind, I always had the feeling that years ago the Department of Local Government decided that if and when a new bridge was built it would have to be further up the river. Many Deputies I am sure know the location of the present bridge and they can realise what the people of Youghal have had to endure during all these years. I thoroughly agree with what Deputy Corry said that the place for the bridge is as near as possible to the present site. If the bridge is put further up the river, I believe that the town of Youghal will be more or less isolated from the commercial point of view. On the Ballynatray road from Templemichael I have seen at least four landslides within the last six or seven years; one of them was of very serious proportions. The whole road collapsed and sank to a depth of from 12 to 15 feet.
There is another thing I want to mention. The water supply to Youghal from Boola runs right along that particular road. How any engineer could possibly suggest to the Minister that the Ardsallagh site is the most suitable beats me. I am speaking now as an ordinary layman. I have no engineering qualifications but, in supporting my colleague, Deputy Corry, I want to say that we in Youghal briefed one of the finest and most capable engineers in this country, and he holds that the bridge can be reconstructed. In this age when it behoves us to be careful in spending other people's money, he says that a saving of at least £100,000 could be effected by constructing the bridge on the present site. As one who has been sent here to fight for Youghal and, as a native of the town of Youghal, I suggest to the Minister that he should give very serious consideration and thought to the matter before he finally recommends that the bridge should be builtat Ardsallagh. This is a very serious issue for Youghal. The present bridge is at least a mile and a half or two miles outside the town, and, if the new bridge is put still further away, it will ruin the trade in Youghal town.
Another suggestion made in the report submitted to the Minister was that a fixed bridge should be erected at Ardsallagh. The Minister is aware that there is a fair amount of trade done—it is nothing like what it was 35 or 40 years ago—by vessels going up the river handling cargoes of coal and bringing down pit props from Killahala, Cooneen and other places. The town has been hit very hard commercially and financially and, before the Minister finally sanctions the erection of a bridge at Ardsallagh, he should bear in mind that 99 per cent., if not 100 per cent., of the people affected do not want a bridge anywhere further up the river. They want to have it as near as possible to the present site.
This is neither the time nor the place in which to go into some of the matters referred to here by Deputy Corry in relation to the professional men who were called upon to express opinions one way or the other on the erection of the proposed bridge at Youghal. Even if there was time, it is not a subject in which I would willingly intervene at all.
Cork County Council asked the Department to make an Order for the erection of a bridge at Youghal. My Department asked the Cork County Council to make a report on the matter. Now the council, of which Deputy Corry is a member, proceeded in the usual way to advertise for a consultant. I take it they received applications from many engineers as a result of that advertisement and the Cork County Council of its own volition appointed a consultant, a gentleman named Mr. Roughan. The only comment I have to make upon the professional gentleman, to whose personal qualifications reference has been made here, is to say that it was a pity that the Cork County Council did not see fit to appoint the other gentleman instead.
As Deputy O'Gorman has stated,was in Mallow recently and I was also in Youghal and I met a deputation there which expressed grave concern because of the length of time in which Youghal bridge had been left in its present condition. That deputation also expressed the view, like Deputy O'Gorman and Deputy Corry, that they had a very deep preference for the existing bridge and its location.
In reply to a supplementary question here, not knowing what the consultant employed by the Cork County Council would have to report, not knowing what evidence might be tendered at the inquiry that is bound to be held following the receipt of such a report, not knowing what might be said by the technical experts employed by the Youghal people to make the Youghal case, not knowing any of these things and being a layman, I gave an assurance, and I gave it honestly, that if the report of this gentleman and if the report of the inspector who was sent there to make the inquiry, even if the evidence was loaded not too heavily, but to some extent, against the existing site, I would go out of my way—I could not afford to take a very dangerous chance being a layman—to try to arrive at a decision that would meet the wishes of the residents of Youghal; and if, as a result of my consideration of the inspector's report and the evidence that was tendered on both sides and with an approach in favour of the Youghal view at the back of my mind, I was forced, having regard to the facts as revealed to me, to abide by the decision given in reply to a parliamentary question, I must have had very excellent reasons for doing so.
The claim has been made—and I have assured the House that I will not deal with difficult and intricate problems associated with bridge construction—that Youghal bridge could be reconstructed on its present site without interfering with the flow of traffic over the bridge. That claim has been made by a professional man. I have had the evidence of the Cork County Council's consultant and of my own staff in relation to that contention but, apart from that, havinglooked at Youghal bridge on a number of occasions, having travelled over it and, speaking as a layman, the technical expert who could prove to me that Youghal bridge could be reconstructed on its present site to take modern traffic and stand the test of time would have a somewhat difficult task on his hands. Although that claim has been put forward, in my opinion, it has been successfully countered by the technical people advising in the matter. As a layman, I have no hesitation in accepting the point of view that if Youghal bridge were to be reconstructed on its present site the bridge would have to be closed for such a period of time that the Youghal people would not bear to contemplate.
Since this whole matter has been broached, I am concerned, not as some people would have one believe with the purpose of placing this bridge at a particular point but with the purpose of alleviating a problem that has existed for a number of years in Youghal. I would ask the Youghal people to approach the matter in this way. There was no hostility towards the people of Youghal at the back of our minds when we arrived at this decision. There was no question of officials, technical or otherwise, shoving down my throat things that did not make good sense to me. With that background in mind and having agreed to the need for a bridge at Youghal, is it not better that those concerned should say: "It is not the way we would like it, but let us get on with the job; let us remove the present eyesore and replace it by something suitable to the town of Youghal, to the surroundings of Youghal and to the importance of the countryside around Youghal."
I have no time to deal with the question of cost but, as I tried to convey in reply to a supplementary question, I have no doubt at all but that the decision we arrived at as to the method of financing the work is a fair and reasonable decision. After all the people of Castletownbere are making roads approaching Cork City. The people at Bantry are doing likewise. This question as to who is using a particular bridge and who should pay for it is a wee bit childish. If people wishto assess accurately who is to pay for the different services in the different counties, one half of the population would have to be employed as officials to determine how these matters should be approached. A bridge is required at Youghal. Every reasonable inquiryhas been made into the matter. A determination of the expenditure has been arrived at. Let us now get on with the work.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.2 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 22nd May, 1953.