Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1953

Vol. 139 No. 7

Turf Development Bill, 1953—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

It was, naturally, pleasant enough for me to be able to report to the Dáil that this turf development project is proceeding satisfactorily, that production is increasing in accordance with the programme and that the financial results are such that Bord na Móna not merely is now able to commence the payment of interest upon the capital invested in this project, and the repayment of advances previously made, but was also able in this year to announce a reduction in the price of turf sold to commercial users.

I have been gratified by the manner in which the Bill was received by the Dáil, which indicates that the project is now accepted and supported by all sections.

Deputy Vivion de Valera raised one question to which I should have adverted when introducing the Bill. I had given information concerning the supply of machine-won sod turf and milled turf for electricity production and indicated that in regard to output everything was proceeding according to plan. Deputy Vivion de Valera asked, however, how the utilisation of turf for electricity generating affected the cost of electricity. I think it is desirable to give the House available information in that respect.

For the year ended 31st March last the average fuel costs of generation per kilowatt hour were as follows: At the Pigeon House station, where coal was used, .96d.; at the North Wall station where oil was the fuel, .79d.; at Portarlington, where turf was used, .76d. and at Allenwood, where turf was used, .81d. Since the end of that financial year the prices of coal and oil were reduced and also the price of turf for the Portarlington station. At Allenwood an increase in the price of turf was necessary. So that these figures are not applicable to present operations. They are, however, the figures for the last financial year. At present, so far as I can ascertain, the fuel costs per kilowatt hour work out as follows: at the Pigeon House, where coal is used, .82d.; at the North Wall, where oil is used, .64d.; at Portarlington, where turf is used, .64d.; and at Allenwood, where turf is used, .84d.

Mr. Cosgrave

What is the explanation of the big difference between Allenwood and Portarlington?

Mr. Lemass

As the Deputy knows, the Portarlington bog is now fully developed. At Allenwood, full production is only now being obtained. The second generating unit only came into operation about six months ago. I think it must be assumed that the costs of turf at Allenwood will always be higher because the development costs of Allenwood Bog were higher than at Clonsast, where a large part of the development expenditure was incurred before the war.

The point I want to make clear is that the utilisation of turf for electricity generation does not makeelectricity dearer. Even if we were to judge the merits of turf solely upon that narrow basis, the case for it can be substantiated. From the point of view of its effect upon the national economy, there can, of course, be no question at all.

Many Deputies referred to the problems of securing the utilisation of turf for commercial purposes. Deputy Morrissey expressed anxiety as to the availability of a market amongst commercial users for turf produced by Bord na Móna over and above the requirements of the E.S.B. and many Deputies referred to the measures which are being taken to increase the utilisation of turf for industrial purposes and by local authorities in charge of public institutions.

Mr. Morrissey

Will the Minister allow me?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Morrissey

I did not exactly put it as the Minister has put it. What I was concerned about was whether Bord na Móna would be able to dispose of the machined sod turf they were producing for commercial purposes.

Mr. Lemass

Bord na Móna is, of course, endeavouring to sell for commercial purposes sod turf only.

Mr. Morrissey

I know that. The Minister knows, of course, that that is one of the things that give some concern. There is no difficulty about disposing of it for electricity generation.

Mr. Lemass

Let me make it clear that, so far as the policy of the Government in that regard is concerned, it is precisely the same now as it was when the White Paper on the turf development programme was issued in January, 1946. In paragraph 9 of that paper it was indicated that the aim would be to ensure that new power projects would be designed to use turf, that ranges, grates and stoves to be installed in houses built in turf-producing areas under the auspices of the Department of Lands or local authoritiesor with the aid of State subsidies, would be designed to use turf efficiently and economically, that boilers and equipment using solid fuel installed by local authorities in new institutions should be designed so as to permit of the efficient and economical use of turf as a fuel and that factories using imported fuels and located in areas where turf is competitive in price with other fuel should install turf-burning equipment as a condition precedent to the grant of State assistance in any form.

I have already in the course of this debate expressed some surprise at the reluctance of a few industrial concerns and of some local authorities to utilise turf or at their action in entering into contracts for the supply of equipment designed to use fuel oil without even considering the economies of turf. Bord na Móna have at the present time a team of expert consultants who are visiting the institutions of local authorities and business concerns in all districts in which they are in a position to offer a regular supply of turf and are endeavouring to teach them that the utilisation of turf will mean a saving in costs as well as giving service equally efficient as other imported fuels. I hope to have the co-operation of Deputies who are members of local authorities in the various turf-producing counties in ensuring that commitments are not made in respect of schools or institutions in these counties for the installation of equipment in which turf cannot be used.

I have been surprised to find a reluctance to consider turf even in the case of authorities conducting institutions in areas surrounded by bogland. With the development of this Móna jet burner by the board's research department it can I think be asserted that, except where the use of oil or coal is an essential part of the industrial process involved in any factory, fuel costs for ordinary steam raising purposes can be reduced in all locations in the turf producing counties by installations for the use of turf. Free advice on that matter is available to all industrial concerns and to all public bodies from the board's technicalstaff. There is no question of making any charge for the advice. These technical experts of the board will be only too willing to go to any place where that advice is needed and put their expert knowledge at the disposal of those who seek it.

Bord na Móna also have an organisation set up for the purpose of promoting sales. That is an organisation separate and distinct from its technical staff. At an early stage in Bord na Móna's operations I, as Minister, approved of the principle of the board's not endeavouring to set up its own retail selling organisation and encouraged it to seek to develop sale for its products through existing fuel merchants where the co-operation of the existing fuel merchants could be secured. I think that is a good principle. I think it is undesirable that a State organisation of that kind should upset existing trade methods if it can adapt them to its purpose.

In some cases, however, Bord na Móna has been forced into the position of establishing its own retail services either because in certain areas no organised retail system existed or because co-operation from existing merchants was not forthcoming to a sufficient degree. Within the past six months they have inaugurated retail services in a number of towns in Counties Roscommon, Longford and Kerry and it is considered that the scheme will probably be extended to include Galway and other centres later this year.

Mr. McQuillan

When was that started?

Mr. Lemass

Within the past six months.

Mr. McQuillan

Is it not a fact that the reason that was started was because the turf could not be sold?

Mr. Lemass

No. The Deputy misunderstands the position in that regard. I will deal with the points he raised later. I am referring now to sales of machined turf produced from Bord na Móna's permanent bogs. It is for the purpose of building up the market for that turf that this salesorganisation is being built up where necessary. I still think that the board should endeavour to work within the ambit of the existing retail sales organisation provided by private traders wherever it can be done and that it should undertake its own retail distribution services only where no other course is open to it.

Perhaps I should say, in order to make clear to some Deputies who may misunderstand the position, that Bord na Móna as such has no function whatever in regard to hand-won turf. It is true that until recently a marketing organisation was maintained by Bord na Móna whose function it was to advise private turf producers as to available markets and sometimes to assist them in making the necessary contacts to enable them to dispose of their turf. Bord na Móna, however, only came into contact with hand-won turf during the war when, for reasons due to scarcity of fuel, certain temporary arrangements had to be made to collect, store and distribute hand-won turf. Bord na Móna was used because it was the most suitable organisation for the purpose, but it was always intended that it should revert to its original position in which it had no responsibility for hand-won turf at all as soon as possible.

That situation has now ended. Bord na Móna has a very big job on hands in organising the production of turf for power generation purposes. It has been given a target of 3,500,000 tons of sod and milled peat by 1960, and it will strain the resources of its organisation to the limit to achieve that target. Whatever has to be done by State organisation in relation to hand-won turf will not be a matter for Bord na Móna. In my view, the time has come when hand-won turf should also get back to the same marketing arrangements that existed before the war, seeking local sales which should be possible because of the price advantage which it enjoys. Our estimate is that there will be a market for privately produced hand-won turf this year of about 230,000 or 240,000 tons.

It is true that in certain western counties the output of hand-won turfincreased enormously under emergency conditions and that the reduction of activity in hand-won turf to normal dimensions is causing some economic upsets there. It was precisely because we desired to restore the conditions of comparative prosperity that existed in those areas during the time of maximum demand for hand-won turf that we decided to establish there small power stations to be based upon hand-won turf purchased from local private producers. Four of these stations have been planned. It will take a couple of years to get them into operation, but the work of getting them established is, I am told by the E.S.B., proceeding as rapidly as possible. The purpose of these stations is definitely a social one. It is to improve the social conditions in these areas. I do not want to suggest that it will be possible to work them on as economical a basis as the much larger stations located on midland bogs. They will be less economic than the larger stations, but the economic consideration is of less concern than the social advantages they confer.

There is the further consideration that if a situation should arise in which hand-won turf was required for other purposes in another fuel emergency, then these small stations could be closed down without any considerable upset to the electricity supply system and the turf diverted to other purposes.

Mr. McQuillan

That development will not come for a few years more and in the meantime why not keep the semi-automatic bogs in production this year?

Mr. Lemass

These semi-automatic bogs were also a residue of the emergency period. After the war the county councils were relieved of responsibility for turf production. Bord na Móna took over the work the county councils had been doing in some instances. It is true that they operated on a much reduced scale as compared with the work the county councils were doing during the war. A number of these bogs have been closed down since and this year there was a further reduction. In every case the bog chosen for the discontinuance of work was one inrespect of which either the board experienced difficulty in getting enough workers to keep these bogs operating last year or are now in a position to offer alternative employment to the staff concerned.

Let us be quite clear. That form of production is entirely uneconomic. Heavy losses were sustained and considerable difficulty was found in disposing of the turf. In fact, a large portion of the turf produced was ultimately disposed of at a heavy loss to the E.S.B. The E.S.B. took it although they did not require it. It would not be possible to continue diverting these turf supplies to the E.S.B. without upsetting the turf production programme of Bord na Móna which is designed specifically to produce turf for those stations.

Mr. McQuillan

Was it not proved during the period of office of the inter-Party Government that several of these bogs were economic units but that the uneconomic bogs were lumped in with them with the result that they became uneconomic?

Mr. Lemass

None of the semi-automatic machine bogs were economic. It is necessary to remember that as late as 1951 there were fuel scarcities, and that deliveries of coal from Britain were much shorter even than the quantities the British had contracted to give us. That situation is changed. To attempt to market that turf at a loss through local markets would, in my view, completely destroy the market of the private turf producer. That, I think, would be very undesirable. If the turf was sold at a loss at a subsidised price the competition with local private users would be unfair.

Mr. McQuillan

Did they not do that?

Mr. Lemass

No. It is true that the turf last year was offered for sale at a price which was unremunerative from the point of view of Bord na Móna. The bulk of that was shifted to the power stations. In some cases, where the production was a considerabledistance from the power stations, the price paid by the E.S.B. for the turf did not go far beyond the actual cost of transport.

Mr. Morrissey

In some cases. In other cases it could not be shifted at all.

Mr. Lemass

I think it is all shifted now.

Mr. Morrissey

Some of it was not fit to be shifted.

Mr. Lemass

Any desire to carry on semi-automatic turf production for relief purposes would have to be implemented through the local authorities or some other body. It is not the business of Bord na Móna. In the case of Roscommon bogs they would argue very strongly that they are at present encountering considerable difficulty in recruiting sufficient workers for the permanent bog at Lanesboro' where they are not merely able to offer employment but also houses for workers who would come to take emploment in that locality. That brings me to the board's housing programme concerning which some Deputies were seeking information.

Mr. McQuillan

Before the Minister goes on to discuss the board's housing programme, is he satisfied that the marketing section to which he has referred is doing an efficient job with regard to procuring a market for turf?

Mr. Lemass

The marketing section is concerned only with marketing Bord na Móna's own machine-produced sod turf. Is the Deputy clear about that?

Mr. McQuillan

Why was not this marketing section asked to get a market for the surplus semi-automatic turf on the bogs at Roscommon?

Mr. Lemass

It was.

Mr. McQuillan

It failed to get it.

Mr. Lemass

It failed to get it.

Mr. McQuillan

It was given to Roscommon County Council. I pointed out that in Galway there was a first-classmarket in regard to the semi-automatic produced turf. Has the marketing section made any effort in that regard?

Mr. Lemass

As far as Galway is concerned turf can be supplied at the board's permanent bog at Attymon to anybody who requires it. Bord na Móna is now concentrating upon its one job of selling its own production. Up to the present Bord na Móna's permanent production was not sufficient to meet the requirements of the E.S.B. This year it looks as if the output of Bord na Móna will be running ahead of the E.S.B. requirements and that situation is bound to arise one year or another between this and 1960 when the whole programme will have been completed. In some years the board will be moving faster than the E.S.B. and in other years the E.S.B. may be moving faster than the board. The aim is to keep Bord na Móna expanding in line with the needs of the E.S.B. Developments in regard to milled peat will, of course, take place in or about 1956.

With regard to housing, I think I should make it clear that Bord na Móna is not undertaking the building of houses for the purpose of making a contribution to the national housing programme. It is building houses for the purpose of offering an attraction to suitable workers to take employment with them. In the case of Lanesboro', the Longford County Council proposed to Bord na Móna that workers employed by it and living in county council houses should be transferred from these houses to the board's houses. Bord na Móna did not consider that because they said they had no need to provide houses for workers already comfortably housed. The board's aim is to have houses available when suitable workers are available so that they can be immediately accommodated in the vicinity of their work. Therefore, the board would always aim at having in each area some houses not allocated as an inducement to people to take employment with them. They are still in a position to offer employment to a fairly considerable additional number of workers,and only this morning they advertised for these workers indicating, as one of the attractions of the job, the availability of houses in the vicinity of the work at reasonable rents.

Deputy Morrissey asked me about turf by-products. So far as peat wax is concerned that process has been brought to the commercial stage, but further investigations are now proceeding with a view to locating bogs in which the peat is particularly suitable for the application of that extraction process.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister is telling us something which I was told over three years ago. Over three years ago I was informed that they were satisfied it was a commercial proposition and that the bog to be exploited for that particular purpose would be located in Donegal or Kerry. Has there been any further progress for the past three and a half years?

Mr. Lemass

This is one of the industrial propositions which I have given to the industrial development authority. It is only in the past six or seven months that they secured the services of an expert who is going to investigate the peat in a number of bog areas with a view to deciding which is the most suitable for the application of this process. I gather that the difficulty in securing the commercial development of this process was that it was more likely to be successful as a business proposition with some types of peat than with others.

Mr. Morrissey

That is so.

Mr. Lemass

There is some talk of the manufacture of insulated wallboard by a Swedish firm. How definite that prospect is, I do not know but, at any rate, Bord na Móna have been cooperating to the extent of preparing and forwarding various samples to the firm for tests.

The position in regard to peat moss is not that handling and transport costs here have affected the board's competitive position in the Americanmarket but rather that, following upon devaluation, the increase in shipping freights made the net price which they were able to secure in the American market uneconomic. Up to the present, Bord na Móna have succeeded in obtaining a somewhat better price in America for their peat moss than other continental countries supplying that market but the board think that some of these countries must be selling at prices which are recognised to be unremunerative but which are nevertheless accepted for the purposes of getting dollars and, in other cases, it is clear that they must be able to obtain lower freight rates than are possible here. Bord na Móna have continued to maintain supplies to the United States in order to keep contact with that market but the fact is that far more remuneraive markets are opening up here, in the Six Counties, in Britain and in the Channel Islands. The increased output which they hope to secure in this year will be designed mainly for these more profitable markets.

Naturally, the whole question of what is going to replace the bogs when they are worked out——

Mr. Morrissey

Before the Minister moves to the discussion of another matter, is he in a position to say anything as to the progress, if any, being made in regard to the production of gas?

Mr. Lemass

No. A committee was set up to supervise that investigation and I understand that it is now preparing its report. I have not seen the report, however, and I do not know what its recommendations are likely to be. A very considerable amount of investigation has been carried out by that committee through the staff that was allocated to it and various types of plant in use in other countries have been investigated. However, I prefer not to say any more until I get the detailed report.

Mr. Cosgrave

On the experimental matter. Could the Minister say if anyinvestigations are carried out concerning the elimination or the reduction of deposits of turf in chimneys? One of the problems in urban areas is that of chimney fires. The briquettes are very satisfactory.

Mr. Lemass

The Institute for Industrial Research have prepared some material about that. It was one of the investigations they carried out in co-operation with Bord na Móna. I know that one of their claims for the jet burner is that it leaves no deposits.

Mr. Cosgrave

That would not be of any use for domestic purposes.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Cosgrave

The briquettes are very satisfactory, but that is one of the problems.

Mr. Lemass

They leave a deposit. To come back to the subject of the reclamation of the cutaway bog, the first advice I got was that the reclaimed land of the midland bogs would be suitable for agricultural purposes. So far as I know, there has been no change of view about that. I am informed that the Mayo bogs, when worked out, will be suitable for afforestation or are more likely to be suitable for afforestation than for agriculture. In no case yet, however, has the work proceeded to the point where anything practical is done in that regard. In the case of the midland bogs, the land is still required for spreading grounds. Only after a very considerable portion of the bog has been worked out will an area be available for experiment and which will not be required for the board's immediate operations. I know, however, that Bord na Móna have been in consultation with the Forestry Division, on the one hand, and have themselves carried out certain experiments, on the other hand, with a view to ensuring that some valuable asset will still be left there when the work on the bogs is completed. The top layer— the spagnum moss—which is removedin the first instance, is preserved with a view to restoring the fertility of the land when the bog is worked out.

Deputy McQuillan was, I think, slightly unfair to Bord na Móna when he quoted Stacey May as saying that their development work was painfully slow. I do not think Mr. May was criticising the Bord na Móna organisation. He was referring to the characteristics of the work and drawing our attention to something that we all know, namely, that there is no possible means by which the development of a bog can be speeded up. It takes from two to three years to drain a bog and nobody has discovered how to do the work in a shorter period. Consequently, it was necessary to give the board ten-year programmes—targets to be reached within ten years from the date of starting. The only thing I can say is that, to date, their progress is such that there appears to be no reasonable doubt that the target in respect of each programme will be realised within the prescribed period.

Personally, I think that we have in Bord na Móna a very efficient organisation composed of people who are real enthusiasts for their work. I have found, and I am sure others have the same experience, that people going to work on the bogs get into a mood in which either they come to hate the sight of a bog or else they become real enthusiasts. By this stage, Bord na Móna is composed largely of people who are enthusiasts and, with an organisation of that kind, you can get things done far more effectively and expeditiously than by another type of organisation where the same enthusiastic drive is not forthcoming. The fact that everything has gone according to plan so far is, I think, the best assurance that it will continue to go according to plan in the future.

Mr. McQuillan

Could the Minister give any hope that the same enthusiasm which he says exists in Bord na Móna for turf could be infused into the E.S.B. for its consumption?

Mr. Lemass

I mentioned the fact that there is now a technical committee composed of representatives of the two boards that meets to eliminate causes of disagreement between the two organisations and to ensure that their joint plans are interlocked. I think I can say now that there is no longer any problem in that regard. The E.S.B. have now accepted not merely the whole idea of developing power from turf but, what was more difficult, the idea of doing that through the use of turf in the milled form.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

Have the workers the option of working either at the fixed rate or on piece-work?

Mr. Lemass

They have the option, except that they earn more at the piece rate.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

The only reason why I have asked the Minister the question is that yesterday I received men who had walked from the Curragh to Dublin in an effort to get back to Wexford. When they went to the Curragh and elected to work at piece-work, and were getting on well too and hoping to earn good money, they were forcibly switched to fixed rate work which was 1/10 per hour. One of them was a married man. It meant that he would earn £4 9s. per week and that, after paying £2 to Bord na Móna for his digs and keep, it just was not worth while. If those are the conditions that apply to them, then Bord na Móna will have difficulty in getting the required number of workers there.

Mr. Lemass

I could not deal with individual cases. All I know is that Bord na Móna themselves say that practically all the work is paid for on piece rates and that, on these rates, a worker can earn at least 2/4 per hour.

Brendán Mac Fheórais

It does not work out.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 16th June, 1953.