Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 31 Jul 1953

Vol. 141 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for the Salaries and Expenses of theOffice of the Minister for Agriculture and certain Services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The Supplementary Estimate is for a net sum of £10 and is made up as follows:—

		£
Sub-head	E.1.—Technical and Advisory Work in Agriculture	3,880
,,	E.4.—Research Grants to University College, Dublin	375
,,	H.—Grants to County Committees of Agriculture	29,200
,,	I.—Special Agricultural, etc. Schemes	5,800
,,	N.1.—Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 to 1949	400
		39,655
Less:—
	Saving on Sub-head P.	39,645
	Net Sum Required	£10

The provision of £3,880 under sub-head E (1), is for Technical and Advisory Work in Agriculture. This sum is required to meet estimated expenditure in 1953-54 in connection with a scheme for the propagation of pedigree seed wheat. For some years past the quality of the ordinary commercial seed wheats available to wheat growers has not been satisfactory, owing to natural deterioration and to the mixture of seeds of different varieties of wheat and of other cereals. In fact the quality of the seed in this respect was the subject of unfavourable comment by officials of OEEC who visited this country last year. It is considered that an official seed certification scheme is necessary in order to ensure that wheat growers will have available to them adequate supplies of high quality seed wheat suited to Irish conditions. Following discussions with representatives of the Flour Millers' Irish Wheat Association, agreement has been reached on the outlines of a scheme for the propagation and distribution of pedigree seed wheat.

The main features of the scheme are:—

(1) The Department will produce foundation stocks and sell these to the Flour Millers' Irish Wheat Association (or large seed merchants) each year;

(2) The allottees will arrange for the propagation of the foundation stocks through two seasons under the supervision of the Department. The produce of this seed will eventually be officially certified and sealed.

With regard to (1), the production of foundation stocks by the Department will involve the selection or production of varieties suitable to this country and their propagation under the supervision of the Plant Breeding Division from the single plant stage to the stage at which only three further years of multiplication will be required to provide the full seed requirements of the country.

As the Department has not, as yet, any suitable foundation stock, a small quantity, approximately 30 barrels, of Original Swedish Atle seed imported by Messrs. Irish Grain, Limited, is being used as a nucleus stock for propagation at Grange Farm and Warrenstown Agricultural College. It is also proposed, in 1953-54, to establish one seed certification unit in association with Messrs. Irish Grain, Limited, who have arranged for the growing by selected farmers of the balance of the Original Swedish Atle seed imported by them.

A provision of £375 under sub-head E (4) is for Reseach Grants to University College, Dublin. This additional provision is required for research into the ravages caused by the wheat midge.

In 1951 very extensive damage was done to wheat crops, particularly in the southern counties, by wheat midge. The damage in 1952 was much less.

In dealing with these outbreaks, the Department was handicapped by the lack of adequate data concerning the incidence, emergence period and biology of the midge in this country and by lack of reliable information as to the efficacy of the various control measures. Much was learned about wheat midge during and since the outbreaks referred to, but much remains to be learned before the Department will be in a position to fulfil effectively its function of adviser to the farming community in this matter.

As attacks of wheat midge may beexpected to recur, it is considered advisable to arrange for the carrying out of a detailed investigation into the matters mentioned. The Department has no officer on its staff with the required qualifications in entomology and arrangements have been made with the authorities of University College, Dublin, for the carrying out of the investigation by the agricultural zoology department of the college. The investigation will involve up to about ten weeks' field work during the summer, as well as experimental work.

The grant payable in respect of the investigation will depend on the actual expenditure, but it is not expected to exceed £375. The arrangement is similar to those already in operation in connection with investigations by the university authorities on potato root and strawberry eel worm.

Mr. Sweetman

Could the Minister at this point state whether the research already carried out into the midge problem has indicated whether any particular varieties of wheat are more susceptible than others?

Mr. Walsh

No, not yet. We have not been able to identify any wheat that is immune.

Mr. Sweetman

The farmers think that certain varieties are.

Mr. Walsh

There is a sum of £29,200 under sub-head H—Grants to County Committees of Agriculture— and £5,800 under sub-head I—Special Agricultural, etc., Schemes—and these provisions are made to finance a scheme to encourage the use of fertilisers throughout the country. The fertility status of much of the land of this country is very low, and field experiments have demonstrated that striking results in the matter of increased yield can be obtained by proper manurial treatment. Cobalt deficiency is a serious problem in many parts of the congested districts, and also in the poor areas of certain other counties, notably Wicklow, Waterford, Carlow and North Wexford. This deficiency results in considerable losses in live stock, particularly insheep. Experimental work shows that in affected areas the use of cobalt will result in reduced stock mortality and in much greater thriftiness. It is considered that a system of large-scale demonstration plots would be the most potent means of promoting greater use of fertilisers, the consumption of which in this country is abnormally low compared with other European countries.

It would not be possible to have the proposed scheme of demonstration plots financed by the county committees of agriculture. Some of them could not afford it, and the others would not be prepared to seek the additional income necessary to enable them to bear the cost. It has, accordingly, been decided to have the necessary funds made available from the Exchequer.

The provision of £29,200 under sub-head H is intended: (1) to enable 20 manurial demonstration plots with tillage crops and 20 such plots on grassland to be established in his district by each instructor in agriculture in the country, the necessary manures to be provided free of charge to the plotholder by the committee of agriculture whose expenditure, subject to a fixed maximum, will be recouped by the Department: and (2), to enable 200 special demonstration plots to be established by the instructors in agriculture in cobalt-deficient districts, each plot to be dressed free of charge to the farmer with Semsol containing cobalt at a cost of £2 10s. per plot.

The provision of £5,800 under sub-head I is intended (1), to enable ten manurial plots with tillage crops to be established by each of the parish agricultural advisory agents employed by the Department in the congested districts, the necessary manures to be supplied direct by the Department free of charge to the plotholder; and (2), to enable 500 special demonstration plots dressed with Semsol containing cobalt (at a cost of £2 10s. per plot) to be established by the parish agricultural advisory agents in their districts.

The provision of £400 in sub-head N (1)—Diseases of Animal Acts, 1894 to 1949—is required for the purpose of making a contribution towards abnormalquarantine charges incurred by private importers of pedigree live stock as a result of the detention of their animals in Glasgow quarantine station for the period May to October, 1952, under the precautionary measures necessary to prevent the spread of foot and mouth disease to this country.

Mr. Rooney

I move:—

That the Supplementary Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I do so because there is an item of £162,000 mentioned——

Mr. Sweetman

It is the original dairy produce item of £162,000 on which the Minister is making the saving.

Mr. Walsh

We are going to use that money for these purposes.

Mr. Rooney

I am moving that the Supplementary Estimate be referred back for the purpose of discussing this matter and I should like to remind the House that, on 16th June and on a previous occasion, I put down questions to the Minister asking for information concerning butter and the various items of cost which made up the total retail price of 4/2 to the consumer. Unfortunately, the Minister refused to reply to that question and said he would deal with the matter in the course of the debate on the Estimate for his Department.

Mr. Walsh

Which he has not been allowed to do.

Mr. Rooney

I feel that this is an undesirable practice. It began two years ago when his big brother, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, refused to answer questions put down here. I propose to read the question to indicate to the Minister the information I require and which I hope he will give on this occasion. At column 1260 of the Dáil Debates, Volume 139, of the 16th June last, I asked the Minister:—

"If he will name the main items included in the £162,000 provided under sub-head P of Vote 27 for winter storage and loss on sale ofimported butter and state how this amount is calculated?"

The Minister's reply was that he would deal with the matter on the Estimate for his Department. I should like to know from the Minister now why he could not answer the question on the 16th June and why he delayed replying to that question until to-day.

Mr. Walsh

I did not say you were going to get the answer even now.

Mr. Rooney

That is what I am afraid of. I followed that up with a further question, asking the Minister:—

"If he will ascertain from the Butter Marketing Committee or whatever body is responsible (a) the names and number of firms which have contracted to wrap imported butter in 1 lb. packets; (b) the sum per cwt. allowed in respect of such contracts; (c) the total sum paid to such firms since 13th June, 1951, and (d) how many tons of imported butter were wrapped?"

To that question, the Minister replied:—

"As I informed the Deputy on Wednesday last, 10th June, the information he requires is not available in my Department. The Butter Marketing Committee has no control over this trade either, and I know of nobody in a position to furnish the information sought."

Mr. Walsh

Quite true.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am reluctant to interrupt the Deputy, but I cannot see how this is relevant on the token Vote now being asked for by the Minister. The Minister is looking for no money in respect of the matter being raised by the Deputy.

Mr. Rooney

This is the only opportunity I have got.

Mr. Blowick

Is the Minister not proposing to use, behind the token Vote of £10, the £162,000 for dairy produce in another sub-head?

Mr. Walsh

Portion of it, yes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The practice has been that the debate ona Supplementary Estimate, particularly one for a token Vote such as this, is confined to what is in the Estimate and to what the Minister is seeking the money for.

Mr. Sweetman

Is it not also normal to include with the sub-heads for which the Minister is seeking the money the sub-heads from which he is taking the money?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No.

Mr. Sweetman

The Chair appreciates that the matter would arise out of sub-head P from which the sum of £39,000 is being taken. It does properly arise on sub-head P. I understand that we are entitled on a Supplementary Estimate to discuss the additional sub-heads brought in and the sub-heads from which the money was taken. Of course, if that is not so, then I am afraid we will be able to put it off for another day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The debate ought to be confined to the purposes for which the supplementary sum is required.

Mr. Rooney

When I put down those questions I was told to wait for my answer. I am still waiting for that answer. I am putting the questions to the Minister once more. The Minister is asking permission from the House to steal £39,000——

Mr. Walsh

No.

Mr. Rooney

——out of the total of £162,000 under sub-head P in the Estimate Book.

Mr. Walsh

I do not have to steal at all.

Mr. Sweetman

Transfer.

Mr. Blowick

What about "pinch"?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think the Deputy could raise this matter with more relevancy on the main Estimate.

Mr. Rooney

I consider that I am entitled to bring this matter up, because it relates to the total sum of £162,000. A sum of £39,000 has to be taken from that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Deputy were allowed to do that, it would widen the debate on a token Estimate. The Deputy will get an opportunity of raising this matter on the main Estimate when it will be more relevant. I do not think it is relevant on a token Estimate.

Mr. Rooney

I think I was directed to take up the matter on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Walsh

I did not give you any directions. Do not blame me.

Mr. Rooney

Am I to take it that we are going to be given this information by the Minister?

Mr. Walsh

I will give you all the information you are entitled to get.

Mr. Rooney

There is a feeling amongst the community that the difference in the price of butter of 3/3 and 4/2 is not justified.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy appears to be continuing to discuss something which the Chair has ruled out of order. The Deputy should obey the ruling of the Chair. He can raise this matter later.

Mr. Cogan

It seems to me that Deputy Rooney has nothing in his head at the moment but butter.

Mr. Blowick

That is a most profound observation.

Mr. Rooney

No one heeds Deputy Cogan, not even the people in Wicklow. He even got his answer in connection with Baltinglass. I will wait for the Minister to give the reply. Can he indicate now whether he intends to give this information on the Estimate or whether he will answer a question I will put down next week to procure this information?

Mr. Walsh

If you had let me close the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture I would have given you all the information you needed. The people opposite would not let me close the debate.

Mr. Rooney

If you so rule, Sir, I will have to wait to hear the Ministeron another occasion. I will not press the point now but it is a matter of considerable importance to this community, especially when there are nearly 20,000 cwt. of imported butter worth £400,000 lying in cold storage at the moment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should now pass from the question of butter.

Mr. Rooney

Very well, Sir. I will not detain the House any longer. I only intended to deal with butter and, as I said, Deputy Blowick wants to raise another matter.

Mr. Blowick

I am sorry that the rules of the House prevented Deputy Rooney from enlarging on the subject he was speaking about. I would have been more than pleased to get the information he was seeking because I think that we will all need it on this side of the House during the coming three weeks. Perhaps, the same reason that makes us so determined to get the information compels the Minister to hold on to it like grim death.

Mr. Walsh

If you had let me finish the debate, I would have given it to you.

Mr. Blowick

I was delighted to hear that the Minister was embarking on the cobalt experimental plots. I want to pay a compliment to the officials of the Department who are concerned with that. I think I am correct in saying that this matter of deficiency in trace elements was responsible for a lot of disease in crops and stock. Without going too deeply into medical terms, I feel that these same deficiencies in crops and stock are responsible for a good deal of ill-health and may be responsible for diseases in human beings. I was more than glad to see that the Minister's Department is keeping pace with world advances in science along these lines. As far as I and my Party are concerned—I am sure the same applies to everyone in the House—we will be behind the Department in any research they carry out in that field.

Whilst speaking, the Minister outlined a scheme of small plots and gaveus the cost as being £2 per acre. Lack of cobalt, particularly in mountainous areas, is playing the very devil with black-faced sheep. Instead of taking a particular plot, why not restrict the number of plots and take a particular typical farm in an area where sheep rearing is carried on, dress half the farm, whatever the cost, and leave the other half undressed? The farmer could be asked to co-operate by having half the plot undressed and the other portion dressed. By that means the Department would accumulate some very useful information. If he dresses a plot of grazing land I do not see how the results will be fully appreciated.

In the United States and other countries pretty advanced research has been made along these lines. I am glad to see that our Department of Agriculture are up and doing and keeping pace with the foremost scientists of the world in this regard. In carrying out this work they not only do a good job for the prosperity of the country but they contribute very appreciably to the health of the people, the crops and the stock.

I crossed swords with the Minister before on the subject of the strawberry eel worm. Could the Minister tell us what is happening in that regard? The money used in this particular sub-head appears to be devoted entirely to the wheat midge. Fortunately, we have not yet seen in the West of Ireland this infamous midge. I have the greatest sympathy for the Department and for the farmers who are trying to conquer this pest in the particular areas it ravages. In connection with the strawberry eel worm, I believe that the particular section of the Minister's Department which looks after this matter are doing very fine work which I appreciate. I think a few words of praise and gratitude from somebody in the House for the officials would not be out of place. As a matter of fact, it is only right to give credit where credit is due. What hope is there for establishing an eel worm free foundation stock of strawberries?

Mr. Cogan

I think it is right that the Minister should be complimented on introducing this SupplementaryEstimate and upon the purposes for which it is required. There is in the first place a substantial grant for the improvement of seed wheat. There is nothing more urgently necessary at the present time. In every tillage county there is considerable complaint coming from farmers that it is very difficult to secure seed that is reliable as to both variety and germination, but particularly in regard to purity of variety. In practically every field of wheat at the present time or in a very large proportion of wheat fields at the present time we notice a considerable admixture of various varieties. The time has come when strong and vigorous action must be taken to eliminate that situation and to ensure that the farmer who buys seed wheat can be practically certain of getting the variety that he wants in its purity.

It is essential that if this scheme is to be carried out it ought to be carried out very thoroughly. In the first place you must get the pure foundation of seed and then in the selection of growers the greatest care must be taken. In addition to that there must be an inspection of the growing crop to ensure that no admixture will be allowed to enter into the grain. Of course, in addition to that adequate measures must be taken to protect the seed in the threshing and subsequent operations, so that once we secure a pure variety of seed the purity of that variety will be maintained right through. The certificate of the Department will be one upon which the ordinary farmer can rely with absolute security. That is a very important step, and it is one upon which the Minister must be congratulated on taking.

We may take it from this Supplementary Estimate that it is the fixed policy of the Government to continue to guarantee prices and a secure market for wheat because farmers are coming to realise that the guaranteed price for wheat offers them one measure of security in their difficult farming operations for which they are very thankful. The more wheat that is grown under State guarantee the more farmers will have a secure income. Inaddition to that, the growing of wheat under a State guarantee will ensure that a market will be available for the other grain crops, because every 1,000 acres of wheat grown will mean that that much less will not be competing with the growers of oats and the growers of feeding barley. For that reason we should welcome this particular Estimate and this particular grant in respect of the improvement of seed wheat.

It is also satisfactory to note that a scheme has been in operation as we all know through the county committees of agriculture for experimentation and demonstration in regard to the use of fertilisers. This scheme was introduced by the Minister some months ago and I think the county committees are cooperating as far as possible in carrying it through. They have good reason to co-operate since they are getting a grant from the Department covering the cost of the fertilisers.

The fact that the consumption of fertilisers is exceptionally low in this country as compared with other tillage countries is a justification for this forward step, and it is by practical demonstration that the value of fertilisers will be brought home to every individual farmer. Prices have been reduced during the past year and I hope they will continue to fall and that as a result of the visual demonstration in every parish farmers will realise the value of using fertilisers and the increased output that can be secured from the land by adequately dressing the soil.

In this connection I hope the Minister will ensure that the county committees will carry out these demonstrations in the most effective way possible. First of all, it is desirable that the experimental plots should, wherever possible, be convenient to the public road so that they can be seen. It is also desirable that they should be clearly marked and that there should be controlled plots that is, plots not treated with the fertiliser so that everybody passing can see the difference between the plots that are treated and the plots that are not. In that way we will ensure that the best possible value is secured from this expenditure.

With regard to disease in live stock, I am particularly interested in the prevalence of disease in pigs. I do not know whether the Minister can utilise portion of this money for that purpose. Disease is even more widespread among pigs than is generally known because, naturally, people engaged in the breeding of pigs are not very much inclined to give widespread publicity to the fact that there may be infectious disease among them. I think the Department should investigate this matter thoroughly. There are various diseases such as swine erysipelas in which the pigs die at various ages even up to the time when they are fit for the market. There is also another form of disease, a type of pneumonia which attacks the very small pigs even in the suckling or weaning stages and while they may recover, and in many cases do recover, their lungs are affected and they become unprofitable pigs afterwards. The fact that there is a considerable amount of disease, the fact that it is infectious and that it is difficult to eradicate does constitute a serious source of loss in the pig raising industry here.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This sub-head deals with disease contracted in quarantine.

Mr. Cogan

I am trying to stretch this Estimate a little further to enable the Minister to utilise the money for this purpose. It may be that this disease may have come in from across the water. I read in a farm journal a short time ago that nearly 50 per cent. of the pigs in great Britain are affected with this disease—I think it is described as pig influenza—from which they do not die but recover and afterwards become bad thrivers and carriers of the disease. It may be possible that some of this disease may be brought into the country from outside.

I am sorry that Deputy Rooney did not get an opportunity of demonstrating the butter which probably he had been churning in his mind over the whole morning.

Mr. Blowick

Before the Minister concludes, I should like to call his attention to the fact that, in the Partry-Ballinrobe area, there has beena complete failure of the potato crop grown from seed supplied by the Department. If the Minister has any information in regard to that matter, if he cannot supply it to me now, perhaps he would drop me a line in the course of the next few days and let me know what is the cause of it and whether any compensation will be paid to people who have suffered the loss of their crop, the loss of the ground devoted to the crop and the fertilisers spread on the crops.

Mr. Walsh

I am sorry I have to disappoint Deputy Rooney again as I am not permitted to give him the information he sought but in concluding the debate on the main Estimate I shall give him all the information, possibly more information than he would like.

Mr. Blowick

If you do not supply us with the information now, we shall only have to form our own assumptions and our assumptions may be three times worse, from the Minister's point of view, than if he told us the truth now.

Mr. Walsh

I do not think that I have been guilty at any time of telling the Deputy an untruth. No matter what it is, I shall always tell the Deputy the truth, but the trouble is that it is converted into an untruth by the time the Deputy deals with it. Regarding the £162,000 which we had to find as a result of the importation of New Zealand butter last year, the increase in the price from 3/10 to 4/2 enabled us to save that money. If that windfall, as the Deputy described it, did not come from New Zealand butter it would have meant that we would have to get that money through the Exchequer in the form of new taxes. Does Deputy Rooney want further taxation?

Mr. Rooney

How much are the packers getting?

Mr. Walsh

Does Deputy Rooney subscribe to further taxation? If it was not found by increased taxation, it would have involved a reduction in the price of milk because the creameries would have to make a contribution to pay for the cold storage. The windfallcame our way and we are utilising it to save the taxpayer and to give a price for milk to which we feel the farmer is legitimately entitled.

Mr. Rooney

I was not allowed to refer to this matter.

Mr. Walsh

As regards the wrappers, I do not know anything about the wrappers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Rooney was not allowed to develop this point so the Minister might pass from it.

Mr. Walsh

I should not like to disappoint him, but if you, Sir, say that I should not enter into it——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Not on this Vote.

Mr. Walsh

Deputy Blowick raised the question of cobalt deficiency and complimented the officers of the Department on what they had been doing to supply cobalt deficiencies in certain areas. I should also like to pay a tribute to the officers of the Department for the work they have done in that regard. They have certainly done a wonderful piece of work for the country in discovering what was the cause of it. I attribute the loss of wool, and the incidence of bad wool in mountainous districts, to a deficiency of cobalt. I am also informed that losses at weaning time may be attributed to a deficiency of cobalt.

It is not necessary to cover the whole of the ground in an effort to correct cobalt deficiencies. You can pick a patch in a field, give it a dressing and that is sufficient. The animals, by going there and eating the grass there, are able to supply their want of cobalt. We are merely carrying out experiments at the moment but I hope that, as a result of the experiments and the demonstrations that have been carried out, farmers in these mountainous districts will utilise the information which we are placing at their disposal as a result of these demonstrations and have the necessary dressings applied to their land.

As regards strawberry eel worm, investigationsare still going on. Investigations are also being carried out in regard to potato root worm and are making satisfactory progress.

Deputy Cogan wisely remarked that the quality of seed wheat in the country has deteriorated to a considerable extent. One need only go through the country and see different crops of wheat and oats to realise the admixtures that are taking place. If we are to have the full return that we should expect from our wheat crops, it will be necessary, first of all, to provide good seed, then to have good cultivation and, thirdly, to see that adequate fertilisers are applied. We have good cultivation in most parts of the country and it is our intention to provide good seed for the farmers so as to enable them to obtain higher yields from the acreage under production. Of course, it is also essential to apply a sufficient quantity of fertilisers to ensure the best results. As a result of the wheat scheme worked in conjunction with the millers, we hope to be able to supply in the next few years a sufficient quantity of pure line or pedigree seed.

As regards demonstration plots, I think everybody will agree that demonstration plots are an excellent means of educating our farmers in the use of better methods in agriculture. As a result of a general survey which has been made it has been discovered that the country is badly in need of lime and fertilisers. Our use of fertilisers was abnormally low as compared with the continental countries. The purpose behind these demonstration plots is, as I say, to educate our farmers in the necessity of using more lime and fertilisers. Experiments have been carried out in various parts of the country, in Johnstown Castle, for instance, and in many other counties, to demonstrate the use of different types of manurial dressings.

We are making an all-out drive to educate our farmers in the use of lime and fertilisers and to show them the benefits that are derived from this practice. Our lecturers and agricultural instructors in the various counties have lost no opportunity of impressing on farmers the importance of using more lime and fertilisers. Ifwe are to have greater efficiency in agriculture we must have greater yields and more production from the land. During the past year we have by advertisement in the provincial and daily Press, and by the issue of pamphlets urged farmers to use greater quantities of lime and fertilisers. Any Deputy who wishes to see results of a greater use of fertilisers and lime where farmers have carried out the wishes of the Department in that respect and have used the knowledge that was placed at their disposal, need only visit various areas of the country to see the crops that have been produced there.

In my opinion this harvest may possibly be one of the best we have had in this country for a long number of years, particularly where proper use has been made of lime and fertilisers. That is the purpose behind these demonstration plots. It is our intention to have 20 such plots per agricultural instructor all over the country. We are also anxious to have some small pilot farms in the counties outside the congested districts. We also have our schemes for the congested districts. It can be said, therefore, that this is a widespread national scheme for the purpose of educating our farmers in the use and value of lime and fertilisers.

Deputy Cogan referred to pig diseases. At the moment research work is being carried out on pig diseases in the veterinary research station in Thorndale. Had I been permitted by the Fine Gael Opposition to conclude my speech I would have referred to the question of live-stock diseases. I have that matter under very active consideration at the moment. Diseases in live stock present one of the major problems. Substantial losses have been experienced. It is horrifying to think that we lose practically one-fifth of the calf population each year through disease. We must seek to find a remedy for that situation in order to avoid these losses in future.

With the help of Providence, when we come back in October, and when Fine Gael Deputies agree to let metalk and not muzzle me any longer, I will be able to tell the people what we are doing in relation to the schemes I have in mind for the benefit of the farmers. Of course, Fine Gael is afraid to let me talk.

Mr. Sweetman

As the Minister is taking this line, might I point out that he has not got the requisite number of Deputies to listen to him?

Notice taken that20Deputies were not present; House counted and20Deputies being present,

Mr. Walsh

I was referring to next October. I hope we will have more Fine Gael Deputies here then to listen to me.

Mr. Sweetman

You will have one more anyway.

Mr. Walsh

Possibly the muzzle will be taken off then and the Fine Gael Deputies will let me talk. They have refused on this occasion.

Mr. Rooney

That is quite wrong.

Mr. Walsh

Possibly that is because they would not like to hear what I have to say in reply to many of the points raised in the debate.

Mr. Rooney

The Minister chopped up the time himself.

Mr. Walsh

I got no time. Everybody on the opposite benches talks lawyers' talk.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That has no connection with this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Walsh

We will have something to say in October when we come back and are given an opportunity of talking.

Mr. Rooney

There will be no dissolution then?

Mr. Walsh

No. Do not get that idea into your head. There will not be any dissolution. I think these schemes are all very necessary. Money is being made available for demonstration plots and I am hoping that they will be a complete success. I know that FineGael does not like to see any progress under the aegis of Fianna Fáil, but I hope they will give their help in making these demonstration plots a success because that is the only way in which we will educate our people in the use of lime and fertilisers. It is the only way in which we will increase production from the land and achieve greater efficiency. It is the only way in which we can increase the incomes of the farmers.

Motion—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"—by leave, withdrawn.

Question put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 5th August, 1953.