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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 31 Jul 1953

Vol. 141 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Comptroller and Auditor-General (Amendment) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is necessitated by reason of the special and peculiar position which one member of the Civil Service bears in relation to Dáil Éireann. The Comptroller and Auditor-General, as the House knows, is an officer of Dáil Éireann, appointed by the Dáil, but in order that he may be completely independent in the exercise of his functions of ministerial or other pressure, his salary, unlike that of the ordinary Civil Service, is not carried on the Vote for any Department but is charged to the Central Fund. On account of that and because any increase in his salary requires legislation, this officer has been placed at a serious disadvantage compared with his colleagues in the Civil Service by reason of the fact that it has not been possible to give him the benefit of the two recent arbitration awards. Consequently, while all the other members of the Civil Service and while his subordinates in this very important office have had their salaries increased substantially since 1951, he has not been granted any commensurate increase.

The position, in fact, has now been reached, as Deputies will see from Vote No. 5 of the Estimates, that a subordinate in the office is being paid a higher salary than that which the head of the office himself is entitled to under the existing law.

If this Bill is accepted by Dáil Éireann and passed, the effect of it will be, as I have said, to give to the Comptroller and Auditor-General the benefits which the rest of the Civil Service have derived as a result of the arbitrations of 1951 and of 1952.

The Minister did not say what is the amount.

The amount which will be involved will be that he will get an increase of about £525.

I, on behalf of the Party, want to oppose this Bill, not with regard to the present occupant of the position but simply because I maintain that the Government's action is inconsistent. No wonder it is said outside that it is the rich man's friend; the more you have, the more you will receive. During the week we discussed the question of granting increases of £400 and £500 to persons in high positions who, in my opinion, pending the readjustment of salaries of lower paid men, could very well afford to wait. I see nothing different in opposing this Bill from opposing the increases for these others. We must try to satisfy the people outside by removing the impression that we are concerned only with the wealthy people, which is causing discontent. People will take advantage of the action of this House during the week in all Parties, with the exception of the Labour Party, voting for substantial increases of salaries while forgetting that we are granting only a very small percentage to the weaker sections of the community. Lower paid persons and men in certain jobs are at present unable to get any increase owing to the depression. The responsibility rests upon the Government for that action. They are solely responsible for what is taking place at present.

The Minister pointed out that the occupant of this position did not receive any increase in 1951. I do not think he was in that position then. I think it was in 1951 that he was appointed. However, I am not concerned with this matter from a personal point of view. I believe the present occupant is a worthy official. I am sure, as Deputies, we are all very pleased to know that he is independent of the Government and independent of this House.

No, he is not independent of this House.

He is an officer of this House.

We are not allowed to debate his judgments or decisions in this House.

Oh, yes, you can.

Only on the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee.

Not like the Chairman of the E.S.B.

I wish on behalf of the Party to raise the strongest opposition to this increase of salary for the same reason as I said I opposed increases for other men. Until we do justice to the lower wage-earning section of the community I will oppose any increase to men who have over £2,000 a year.

I am sorry that Deputy Everett has seen fit to play politics in this matter—very sorry—in view of the Deputy's past record as a member of the Coalition Government. The Deputy has alleged that he is going to oppose this because the person who is affected by this Bill is a person who occupies what is one of the key positions in the State from the point of view of protecting the taxpayer and, accordingly, his salary is commensurate with his responsibilities. The Deputy cannot, like Pontius Pilate, wash his hands of the proceedings of the Coalition Government who, in May, 1951, when they were already trembling on the tight rope, just preparatory to their fall, granted the restoration of the super cut to the higher civil servants under which secretaries of some Departments, without any question of arbitration or anything else, were granted increases of salaries amounting, I think, to about £60 a year. That was not done by the Fianna Fáil Opposition. That was done by the Government of which Deputy Everett was then a member, in which he was then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and we did not hear from the Deputy any protest against that.

When the Arbitration Act, 1951, was being considered, the fruits of that arbitration were applied to everybody, even to men who carry higher salaries than the Comptroller and Auditor-General carries and I did not hear the Deputy say that he was opposed to giving general effect to the arbitration award. When the Government came to consider the question of giving effect to the arbitration award of 1952, the Deputy did not get up to protest and say: "You should not apply this principleto the higher-paid officers in the service." On the contrary, the Deputy then attacked us because we were not giving the civil servants in general, including the most highly paid civil servants, enough. He wanted us to distribute another £1,000,000 among the public officers.

Now a Deputy with a record like that should at least not try to do an injustice, because that is what it would be, to an officer who, as I have said, performs very important functions, whose duty it is to see that the moneys voted by Dáil Éireann for carrying on the public services are expended in accordance with the wishes of Dáil Éireann for the purposes for which they were granted, and who in that way exercises a very important control over the actions of the Executive of the day.

I think that the Deputy has not enhanced his public reputation by the line which he has taken to-day. I know that he can go down and try to make some political capital on the platform. But I warn the Deputy that he and the members of the Labour Party who were members of the late CoalitionGovernment have to carry responsibility for the very substantial increases in remuneration which were granted by that Coalition to the higher civil servants, so that the position is now that the higher civil servants are drawing salaries—and have security of tenure and pensionable rights—which are far in excess of the salaries which Ministers enjoy during the period that they hold the confidence of Dáil Éireann.

I do not wish in saying that to detract from the merits of the highest civil servants. I think that as they work hard and carry important responsibilities on behalf of the people of this country and help us to carry on the day-to-day administration of this State, their remuneration is not higher than that which they would earn, and readily earn, outside if they were in private employment. I only wish to stress the inconsistency which exists between the Deputy's past actions, private actions if you like, and his public utterances to-day.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68 ; Níl, 16.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Belton, John.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finan, John.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Norton, William.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Mac Fheórais and Spring.
Question declared carried.

I would ask the House to give me all stages of this Bill to-day, the reason being that the present holder of this office has been deprived for so long of the benefits which he would have enjoyed if his salary had not been fixed by law and if the two previous arbitration awards had applied to him.

It can be taken on Tuesday next.

The House is not sitting on Tuesday next.

On Wednesday, then.

Of course, there is a disadvantage there, too. The Seanad will be sitting next week. They will not be able, in view of the fact that they will be considering the Health Bill, to deal with this unless we pass it this week. They will have to come back specially to deal with it and I suggest that the case for the increase having been established on grounds of justice and equal treatment for all concerned, it would be better if the House saw its way to give us all stages of this Bill to-day.

We would have no objection in normal circumstances to passing this through all stages to-day. The Minister refers to the Seanad. Is the Minister not aware that the Chairman of the Seanad and the Chief Government Whip in the Seanad discussed with the Leader of the Opposition in the Seanad yesterday that the Seanad ought not to meet next week; that it should meet the week after; that the Dáil was meeting next week to transact certain business. I understood it was agreed, or at least it was definitely suggested, by the Chairman and the Chief Government Whip in the Seanad that the Seanad should not meet next week as the Dáil was meeting. I do not know how the Minister can harmonise his persuasive argument on that point having regard to what happened yesterday in the Seanad.

I am not in a position to controvert the statement which has been made by Deputy Mulcahy in regard to the facts. I understand it was not the Chief Whip or the Leader of the Government Party in the Seanad —when you talk of Parties in the Seanad—who made that suggestion, but I did understand when I left the Seanad yesterday that it proposed to meet next week to deal with the very urgent matter of the Health Bill.

But only after the talks that I have referred to took place. It was argued in the Seanad that it could afford to wait until the week after next and that instead of coming up specially both Bills could be taken then.

In any case the Seanad will have to take the Workmen's Compensation Bill.

Was it not stated that the Seanad was going to sit during the month of August and during the month of September? That is in the newspapers this morning—that a prominent Senator on the Government side said that they had decided to work in August and September.

To dispose of urgent business. But I am not in a position to speak with the same omniscience apparently as Deputy Norton.

That is a wonder.

I never tried to beomniscient, and I do not want to quarrel with the Deputy.

Splendid.

I know that he is just as overworked and as anxious for a holiday as anybody else in this House.

We will shorten yours by a week, anyway.

I hope you will keep in good humour over the week-end, but I do not know that any arrangement has yet been made as to whether it will be necessary for the House to meet next week. In so far as the business of the Government is concerned, all of it could be discussed, and very satisfactorily discussed, to-day.

Very satisfactorily? Ask the Tánaiste my views on that.

No time for amendments.

Let us keep to this.

I think that the House, having passed the Second Stage of this Bill, which is a two-clause Bill, requires no very great time to consider amendments. Deputies are either for the Bill or against it. The Labour Party has already indicated its views in the matter. Of course, they are completely inconsistent with the action of the Labour Party when it was in power.

We are discussing the Bill now.

I would suggest that having regard to the views which the House has expressed by such an overwhelming majority we might be allowed to proceed with this Bill and get on with the business of the House.

This is part of the policy to suppress the House next Tuesday or Wednesday.

The Deputy is not right.

Certain Standing Ordershave to be complied with. This cannot be taken to-day.

If the Deputy insists on his pound of flesh——

The pound of flesh for the working man does not seem to be forthcoming. It is a pound of bone.

If the Deputy insists on his pound of flesh—he might be a better object for that, perhaps, than a lot of others of us.

Is the Minister pressing?

I cannot press. I can only do my best to secure justice for this man.

You will get justice with your vote next week.

We will not be meeting next week.

The Tánaiste has given us an assurance to that effect.

I am afraid, then, that this matter must stand over, and we will order it for next week.

Committee Stage next Wednesday.

Your affability came too late.

Well, it is better than yours, which never arrives at all.

Do not spoil it before you go.

A good week-end to you.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5th August.
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