Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Oct 1953

Vol. 142 No. 6

Vote 50—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I moved the appropriate resolutions yesterday and gave some information concerning the changes in the amounts required under the various sub-heads of the Votes. Then I proceeded to say that there had been a general improvement in the conditions as compared with last year, that the temporary trade recession which was experienced internationally in 1952 because of the liquidation of stocks which had been accumulated on the outbreak of the Korean war had ended,and our records show that industrial production here is moving up again to new records. While I say that our industrial expansion is proceeding, as some 68 new firms came to the notice of the Department as having begun business during the year which ended on 31st March last, and some 200 new proposals are at present before the Department, many of which, it may reasonably be expected, will result in the setting up of factories in the near future, that rate of progress is hardly sufficient to justify any feeling of complacency and, if we are to achieve the main objective of our industrial policy, some more substantial progress must be achieved.

However, the all-round circumstances are now favourable for greater progress, particularly the improvement which has been effected in the balance of payments during the past year. The improvement which was recorded in 1952 has continued into the present year. The deficit on invisible trade, the excess of the value of imports over the value of exports to the end of August this year, is about £10,000,000 less than in the corresponding period of 1952, and about £50,000,000 less than in the corresponding period of 1951. As the total deficit in our balance of payments last year was under £10,000,000, these statistics suggest that the position this year should be all right.

I said recently that from this on emphasis must be put in an increasing degree upon the development of export business in industrial goods wherever that is possible. In many of our industries the stage of development to the point of supplying the whole of our home market requirements has been reached and continued expansion depends upon export markets being secured. We have been giving a great deal of attention to that aspect of industrial policy during the present and past years. Investigations have been carried out and the outcome of these investigations, together with the success which some enterprising Irish firms have already secured, suggests that an expanding export business in industrial goods is possible. That result however requiresthat firms seeking exports should regard it as a separate development of their business in most cases. The styles and designs of Irish products, their packaging and marketing arrangements, will require to be adjusted to suit the requirements of the export market and it is clear that some assistance from the Government will be needed to get that started. That assistance is of course being provided under various enactments, but I do not think that we can regard the present degree of assistance as answering all the requirements of the situation and we are free to consider any other proposals or suggestions that may be made provided that they are practical and are likely to lead to worth-while results.

Last year we had the inauguration of the Irish Pavilion at the Frankfurt Trade Fair and that represented a step towards developing increased industrial exports to Western Germany and the continental markets. Perhaps it is interesting to note that that step has already proved beneficial to a number of Irish firms. The Pavilion was again utilised by these firms during the Spring and Autumn Fairs this year and considerable business was secured by Irish exporters.

Apart from that special facility afforded for the purpose of directing the attention of Irish exporters to the possibility of the West German market, there is no special assistance at present being given to encourage firms in respect of any continental markets. The organisation which we set up to encourage exports, Córas Tráchtála, is at present confined in its operation to dollar markets. Early this year, that organisation organised an exhibition of Irish goods at the Toronto Spring Fair. That was regarded as successful. A number of firms which participated in the exhibition secured substantial orders and are now showing a definite interest in the Canadian market and in the facilities provided at that particular fair.

The main purpose of Córas Tráchtála, however, is to provide a general service for dollar exporters as well assupplying them with information on market prospects, prevailing prices, suitability of their products and their packeting arrangements in relation to marketing needs, import restrictions, rates of customs duties in force, the transport facilities available and similar data of that kind. The demands which have been made upon Córas Tráchtála for that type of information cover quite a wide range of products and indicate a general interest amongst Irish firms in the possibilities to which Córas Tráchtála is directing their attention.

The House is aware that Córas Tráchtála employed an American expert team to survey the dollar export potentialities in certain selected industries. The relevant sections of that report were circulated some time ago to all the firms concerned and an abbreviated text of the report, excluding only those parts which deal with the affairs of individual firms, was published.

It is true that the report did not encourage any hopes of speedy or spectacular results. It was, however, published because it was believed that it was better to approach this problem of expanding industrial exports in a realistic spirit, fully aware of the improvements required in Irish production techniques as well as the changes in the style and designing of products which would be necessary before substantial business could be realised.

It has not operated to discourage any of the firms concerned from exploring these market possibilities, but it has brought to their attention the need for making changes in respect of these matters to which I have referred before incurring trade promotion expenditures.

Córas Tráchtála have now opened offices in New York, Montreal and Chicago and, through these offices, they are providing information and similar services to Irish exporters as well as to their American agents. The decision to open an office in Canada was taken following a prospective tour of that market carried out by Córas Tráchtála representatives whichshowed that sales opportunities for our goods existed there and, indeed, to an extent which suggested that progress might be easier in the Canadian market than in the United States market, although it has to be recognised that the far greater size of the United States market makes it potentially the more important. It is difficult to forecast at this stage the extent to which the services provided by Córas Tráchtála may need to be expanded in order to give to Irish firms engaged in the export business all the help they require.

I should like to make it clear that there is no objection in principle to expanding the help which Córas Tráchtála can give if it is clear that it is worth while doing so. They have been entrusted with certain special tasks which bear upon their main activities. They are at present undertaking special market surveys in relation to whiskey sales in the United States of America and are having consultations here with distilling and exporting firms with a view to seeing how increased export sales of whiskey can be secured. Similar consultations are proceeding with the producers of other commodities, and in a few instances they have succeeded in getting firms here to combine in marketing a joint product which, through their joint efforts, could be made available in sufficiently large quantities to make an impression upon the American market.

Mr. Morrissey

Could the Minister say whether there was a special request or consideration for opening an office in Chicago?

Mr. Lemass

No. The office in Chicago was opened for the same reason as the offices in the other centres in the belief that, through that office, contacts could be established with important business possibilities and help given to Irish firms to avail of these possibilities.

There is one other aspect of the general industrial position to which, I am sure, the House will wish me to refer and that is the progress made by Foras Tionscal in encouraging thedevelopment of new industrial concerns in the former congested area. In that connection, some explanation may be required in regard to the amount asked for in the Estimate. The grant proposed in the present year is £100,000, which is less than the £250,000 which appeared in the Estimate for 1952-53. Last year, of course, the figure put in the Estimate was arrived at by guesswork. There was no reliable data existing upon which to prepare a firmer Estimate and no real idea existed as to how the Undeveloped Areas Act would work out.

In preparing that Estimate in 1952, sufficient allowance may not have been made for the delays which inevitably occur in the development of industrial projects, the preparation of plans and specifications, the acquisition of plant, the construction of premises and so forth. According to the annual report furnished by Foras Tionscal, the actual payments made up to the 31st March of last year amount only to £31,000 but in the same period Foras Tionscal had approved projects involving grants by it to a total of £105,000.

Similarly, in this year a number of new projects have been approved of by Foras Tionscal and the amounts of grants have been decided upon. The amount of assistance to be given to those undertaking developments has been made known to them but it is not known to what extent payments may arise in the present year. It is assumed that in many cases the full amount of the grant decided upon will not have to be made by the 31st March next. I think it will prove to be the case that the £100,000 provided for in the Estimate will cover the actual outgoings of Foras Tionscal during the financial year. If that does not prove to be the case, a Supplementary Estimate will be taken. There is certainly no desire to slow down, in any way, the developments which Foras Tionscal has approved, and if the need for additional funds for Foras Tionscal should arise it will be met.

A number of new industries, someof them important, have been either begun or are about to begin in some of these western towns. Deputies will excuse me if I do not specify the individual concerns. In so far as final decisions are made and announced, details of them are contained in the annual report of Foras Tionscal, but, in regard to cases which are in progress, there are always dangers in dealing here with the plans of private firms, and of course, there is always the possibility that circumstances may arise which may prevent a particular project from going ahead, and so it is better to avoid arousing hopes in any locality as to the possibility of industrial development there until the last element of chance has been eliminated. But the indications are that the rate of progress in industrial development in the West, in consequence of the passage here of the Undeveloped Areas Act, will be greater this year than last year, and may possibly expand still further next year.

Mr. Morrissey

I can understand what the Minister has said and so I am not asking for the names of projects coming in, but could the Minister say if the proposals either put in or the proposals already approved are spread over all the counties in which there are undeveloped areas, or are they confined to one county?

Mr. Lemass

No. They are reasonably spread over all the areas. If one were to take the list of proposals approved and the proposals under consideration or in prospect, a reasonably widespread picture of development results.

Mr. Morrissey

That is what I wanted to get—that they are not confined to one or two counties.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. McQuillan

Is the Minister aware that one of the drawbacks in regard to Foras Tionscal is the interpretation of the Act, which was passed in this House, by civil servants—that is to say they interpret it in this way, that an industrialist must prove a loss by going to the West of Ireland before he can get a grant. When this Housepassed the Act it was to be an enticement to those people to go to the West of Ireland instead of the present policy.

Mr. Lemass

There is nothing in the Act about that. It was I who said here that the policy, in my view, should be to offset any commercial disadvantages arising from the location. I have had some discussions with the chairman of Foras Tionscal as to the interpretation of that policy, and I would agree with the Deputy that it is not nearly sufficient to strike an exact balance of advantages: that there should be, because of the general policy of the House in this regard, an inducement to adopt a western location if there are no very substantial objections on wider grounds to that course. I have already said that I have been struck by the fact that quite a number of industrial concerns prefer to choose an eastern location and to forgo any assistance that might be forthcoming to them from Foras Tionscal for practical and commercial reasons.

It is quite clear that there are some industries which, because of their characteristics, are not likely to be developed in the West at all and that no amount of help would induce them to go to the West; but there are a number of concerns, particularly those proposing to engage in branches of the textile industry, to whom a western location has no real disadvantage and to whom the inducement of the Undeveloped Areas Act is decisive.

I should like to make some reference to the various organisations for which the Department of Industry and Commerce is responsible, and to do so without making my statement too long. I want to make special reference to the Institute of Industrial Research and Standards, because I contemplate introducing legislation to amend the Act which was passed in 1946. The Act setting up the Institute of Industrial Research and Standards provided for its financing by means of a fixed statutory grant of £15,000 a year but, having regard to the changes in money values which have taken place in the meantime, it is quite clear that thatamount is now altogether inadequate to enable the institute to do even a fraction of the work which we contemplated in 1946.

Mr. Morrissey

It was never enough.

Mr. Lemass

I agree that it never was. I propose to avail of the opportunity of the amending legislation to effect some changes which have been found desirable in the Act, particularly in regard to standard specifications and standard marks. The House is aware of my interest in the work of the institute in the preparation of standard specifications and of my desire to see Irish industrial firms using the standard mark to an increasing extent. There are a number of Irish standard specifications now in force. Also 38 standard mark Orders have been made during the past year. The manufacturers of commodities for which standard specifications have been issued were contacted by my Department with a view to getting them to produce commodities in conformity with these specifications and to prove to the public that they were doing so by attaching the standard mark to them.

I must say that the response to these representations has been disappointing, and one of the matters which I have under consideration in connection with the forthcoming legislation is what further steps can be taken to popularise the use of the standard mark? In a protected economy like ours, the danger of protection being utilised to put on the market goods which are not fully satisfactory in respect of quality must be recognised, and the best assurance which the public can have that a manufacturer is not availing of the help given to him by the Government to pass on inferior goods to the Irish public is to get standard specification Orders made for his goods and the use of the standard mark in connection with them. Any manufacturer who adopts that course is protecting himself against any possible criticism in respect of the quality of his products. It is a matter for regret and comment that a larger number of Irish manufacturers have not adopted the standardmark and secured the advantages which its use would confer on them.

Mr. Norton

Would that be due to opposition to the adoption of the mark or would it be just indifference?

Mr. Lemass

I should say it is more a matter of indifference and a dislike of accepting all the obligations involved in the use of the mark. Of course, a manufacturer who uses the mark renders himself liable to prosecution if the goods bearing the mark are not up to the standard specification. Even though some manufacturers claim that their goods are of higher quality than those of standard specification, they have hesitated to use the mark on these goods because of the possibility of a few articles being inferior, thus leaving themselves open to the sanctions of the statute.

Mr. Morrissey

Surely the way to make it really effective is to educate the public, the consumers, as to the significance of it?

Mr. Lemass

One way I hope to get that result is by securing, with the cooperation of ministerial colleagues, that where standard specifications have been made for any class of goods involved in a public contract, only goods bearing the standard mark may be supplied under that contract. I think that would be the most effective means of all of getting use for the mark.

The Restrictive Trade Practices Act was passed during the year and the Fair Trade Commission was set up under it. To meet the expenses of that commission the sum of £17,000 was included in the Estimate. That Estimate is in a sense only a guess but I should think that it will prove to be reasonably accurate. The Fair Trade Commission have reported to me that they have received a large number of applications from different trade organisations for the preparation of voluntary fair trading rules and that up to the present they have been mainly concerned with the consultations necessary to the preparation of these fair trading rules. But there have beenother representations made to them which may involve public inquiries under the Act and some of these are likely to be held in the near future.

One of the matters we discussed last year was the arrangements for the importation of tea. I had hoped that changes in these arrangements would be operative by now but circumstances did not permit it. Tea Importers Limited, therefore, continues to bear responsibility for importing all our tea requirements direct from the producing countries in accordance with Government policy in that regard. The measures that might be taken to restore to the wholesale tea trade the greatest practicable measure of freedom to import their own supplies, subject to compliance with that policy of buying direct from origin, have been under examination in consultation with the Wholesale Tea Dealers' Association and the directors of Tea Importers Limited. It was found to be both a difficult and complicated matter, not the least of the complications being the existence of reserve stocks built up some years ago. It is hoped, however, that these consultations will result in the early preparation of a suitable scheme. In fact it is now fairly clear that there is a considerable measure of agreement as to the form that scheme should take. It is clear also that the adoption and operation of that scheme will involve legislation. That being so no changes can be made in the present importing arrangements in the immediate future. Tea Importers Limited will, therefore, continue to be the importing organisation for all our tea supplies. However, I have in mind the possibility of getting legislation passed and the new scheme in operation before the next buying season opens which will be about June of next year.

It may be interesting to note that the expectation held out that the withdrawal of subsidy on tea and the abolition of all rationing and other controls over its sale would result in the marketing of tea in a wide variety of prices, some of which would not be substantially above those prevailing when the subsidy was in operation has proved to be correct. The consumption of tea has risen since theabolition of rationing and is now probably above pre-war levels. The variety of blends of tea on sale is considerable and includes blends available at retail prices ranging from as low as 3/6 per lb.

One other aspect of policy that must come up for consideration in the early future concerns our price control arrangements. At present price control is enforced under the Supplies and Services Act. As I shall be informing the House when the Supplies and Services Bill is under consideration, the Government has taken the decision that that Bill will be the last to extend the Supplies and Services Act. It is supposed to extend it up to March, 1955, but every Minister has been directed by the Government either to get rid of the controls which are still operating under the authority of the Supplies and Services Order before then or else to produce legislation to give him on a permanent basis the powers which he still wishes to retain. So far as the Department of Industry and Commerce is concerned, the most important of these powers is that of controlling prices, and it is clear that before March, 1955, we must have reached and given effect to decisions as to permanent price arrangements because the Supplies and Services Act will then have ceased to be operative.

The Prices Advisory Body is still in existence. It must be said, however, that they have not had a great deal of work to do. Meetings are held infrequently and not very many cases are coming before them. The stability of prices which has prevailed over the present year is, no doubt, responsible for that situation. There is still a number of Orders fixing maximum retail prices or traders' profit margins in force. There are now 44 such Orders in operation, but the number of occasions on which they come up for review is few. That is one of the aspects of this question to which I am at present giving attention, but I have not yet made a decision. The possibility of linking in whatever permanent price control arrangements are deemed necessary with other activities such as was contemplated in theIndustrial Prices and Efficiency Bill, 1947, is one of the matters to which attention is being given. It is possible that in the meantime some alteration in the present interim arrangements will also be justifiable.

Mr. Norton

Is the question of reviving the Prices Efficiency Bill under consideration?

Mr. Lemass

What I said was that if it is decided that some permanent organisation to supervise prices is required, then legislation for that purpose will have to be enacted next year. If it is agreed that prices are far more likely to be affected by costs than by profits and that any system of price control which is to be effective must include supervision of costs as well as profits, then something more than the old Prices Commission will be required. I think it is likely that the decision will be in accordance with that view.

Mr. Norton

Does that mean the Minister is thinking of reviving the other Bill?

Mr. Lemass

I do not want to commit myself to that because that Bill was fairly wide in its scope and contained some provisions which were not directly relevant to that matter of price control.

Mr. Norton

Is the Minister contemplating a variant of that Bill?

Mr. Lemass

I have a very deep affection for that Bill. There is a sum of £26,000 provided for continuing the mineral exploration scheme at Avoca. As the House will remember, it was necessary to take a Supplementary Vote of £58,500 during the course of the year and before the main Estimate came up to be debated. That brings the total expenditure up to £85,000 in this year and that is the most that can be provided having regard to Section 5 of the Minerals Act of 1947.

When the Supplementary Estimate was under discussion here, I explained fairly fully the stage which had been reached in that exploration scheme and I do not want to go over that ground again. Mianraí Teoranta are proceeding with the exploration work and haveamended their proposals for the final stages of the work in accordance with the Government's direction that they should ensure that the maximum number of men with mining experience should be retained in their employment. The company will continue underground work at Avoca and at the same time initiate the diamond drilling programme from the surface to supplement the information which is being gained by the underground work.

I cannot now state how much the full exploration scheme is going to cost or how long it will take to complete it. The company was directed by the Government to submit a progress report before the Estimates for next year are prepared, and it is on the basis of that report the Government will decide further expenditure on the scheme. It is clear, however, that we are now reaching the end of the exploration work in Avoca, and while the results to date justify a certain amount of optimism, they are not yet conclusive. However, it is clear that within a matter of some months we will be taking decisions as to the commercial development of the mineral resources found to exist there.

There is a difficulty of a legal character arising in that connection. I mention Section 5 of the Minerals Act of 1947. That Act fixed the total amount to be spent on that exploration scheme and the maximum amount that could be spent in any one year. So far as this year is concerned, £85,000, which is the maximum fixed by the Act, will be sufficient to meet the actual outgoings of Mianraí Teoranta on that work in this year, but by the end of the year we will have reached the limit fixed by the 1947 Act. I do not think it is worth while going through the procedure of passing amending legislation to provide whatever additional amount may be required to complete the scheme, which itself will only involve a matter of some months. Instead, therefore, of providing for amending legislation I propose to ask the House to vote sufficient funds in the ordinary way to enable that work to be done withoutany special legislative authority other than that which is provided by the Appropriation Act.

Last year I asked the House to approve a Supplementary Estimate for £21,000 in respect of the Slieveardagh coalfield. I said then that I would introduce a Bill later to regularise that payment in relation to the Minerals Acts. Since then, as the House knows, the Ballingarry colliery, together with the lease of the Slieveardagh coalfield, has been sold to a private concern by Mianraí Teoranta. The legal formalities connected with the sale have not yet been completed, but when they have I will bring before the Dáil proposals for the regularisation of the payments which were made to the company out of the Supplementary Vote and which were required to keep its activities going at that period. I think that those Deputies who are familiar with the increase in activities which have taken place on that coalfield since the sale will agree with me that it was fortunate that we were able to find as a purchaser of that colliery the very enterprising firm which has taken it over.

Mr. Hickey

Why were we not able to do it ourselves?

Mr. Lemass

I would not advise the Deputy to raise that issue. I am afraid that the experience of Ballingarry will be quoted from time to time as proof of the superiority of private over public enterprise. That is certainly true as far as a competitive industry is concerned. Our experience to date shows that if the State comes into a business it has to be the only person engaged in it so that standards of comparison will not be possible.

I announced earlier this year the initiation of a scheme for the exploration of three mineralised areas in the country. A certain sum of money was provided for the purpose of carrying out mineral exploration work and an expert consultant was asked to advise as to the three areas regarded as the most promising. The expert consultant employed by the Department examined all the information available about the mineralised areasin the country and made recommendations following that survey. Based on his recommendations, I decided that exploration by way of drilling should be undertaken first on the lead and zinc deposits at Abbeytown, County Sligo. These deposits, as the House is aware, are being worked commercially but there are indications that they are more extensive than was estimated originally. It is these indications which are being followed up by the diamond drilling programme and so far expectations have been borne out, so much so that I have authorised an extension of the diamond drilling in that area.

The second area chosen for exploration is Murvey in County Galway, where it is thought that deposits of molybdenite of commercial importance exist. The third area to be investigated under that scheme has not yet been chosen.

A Deputy had a question to-day about our coal reserves. That is one of the matters that arise naturally in the debate on this Estimate. Coal deliveries are, in theory at least, still subject to international allocation, while in fact no difficulties have been experienced during the course of the past year in obtaining adequate supplies. How long that situation is likely to continue is anybody's guess. Deputies will have seen recent announcements by the British Minister of Fuel and Power that stocks in Britain appear to be adequate to meet British needs over the winter—stocks which have been augmented to some extent by imports. He also said that the continuation of exports of coal from Britain depended upon securing an increase in output.

Our trading circumstances are such that the stocks of coal normally held by way of trade are not very substantial, and it is a matter of policy for decision whether it is necessary or desirable that the Government should continue to hold any reserve stocks of coal. There are some who think we should rely entirely upon private trade to carry the stocks required from time to time; and there are others who feel that the effect on the country of anycessation of coal deliveries, even a short one, would be so serious that some reserve against that risk should always be retained. However, there is a stock of 286,000 tons of United States coal now held by Fuel Importers, Ltd. That coal was purchased in 1951 when it seemed clear that continuing difficulties in obtaining adequate supplies from England were likely to be experienced.

When, following certain discussions which took place in London early in 1952, an assurance of adequate deliveries from Britain was forthcoming, steps were taken to stop the purchase of American coal although the quantity in transit at the time had necessarily to be brought in. I believe most Deputies would feel that 280,000 tons are more than enough to hold as an emergency reserve, even assuming that the principle of holding a reserve is agreed. In any case, the Government's view is that we should liquidate some part of that stock and a decision has been taken to dispose of about 80,000 tons of it. That does not preclude the possibility of a further decision to get rid of all of it, but there is a feeling that we should not be too expeditious in disposing of this stock until the future position is clear.

The coal was purchased at a higher price than that at which coal is now available. It has been accumulating charges, both interest and storage charges, since it went into stock, so that a loss on the sale of the coal is to be anticipated. We are assuming that loss may be around £3 per ton. The procedure for disposing of the coal, whether it will be offered to coal merchants for purchase by them or made available to anybody who wishes to purchase it at a stated price, is under consideration. The coal is probably too good in quality to be used by the public utilities. It is more suitable for domestic use.

The much easier fuel situation which now exists has, of course, led to the need to restrict the special schemes for the production of turf by semi-automatic machines which Bord na Móna have operated for the past five years. That scheme, as the House knows, is entirely separate from the permanentoperations of the board under the Turf Development Acts. It was undertaken at the request of the Government when emergency turf production by county councils and other local bodies ceased. The scheme was considerably reduced in scope in the present year. It was continued only in areas where some special circumstances made it desirable to do so. In this year bogs on which any difficulty had been experienced in securing local labour or where there was alternative employment available on the board's permanent schemes were excluded. It may, I think, be assumed by the House that that scheme will end permanently this year. Practically none of the turf which is produced by these semi-automatic machines is saleable except at a very heavy loss having regard to the price at which machine turf is available or hand-won can be supplied by local private producers.

No provision is being made this year for the turf-marketing section of Bord na Móna. Henceforth it will be a matter for the producers of hand-won turf for sale to make their own marketing arrangements. We are now out of the emergency situation so far as fuel is concerned and it is better that we should get back to normal methods of working. I would, however, urge fuel merchants and consumers requiring hand-won turf to make their requirements known to suppliers well in advance so as to ensure that sufficient quantities will be produced to meet all demands. It is not necessary at present to stimulate private turf production beyond normal marketing needs and accordingly a guaranteed market for hand-won turf is not provided this year and the operations of the marketing section have, as I have said, come to an end. No precise figures for hand-won turf production are available but it is estimated that the tonnage produced for sale runs between 200,000 tons and 250,000 tons in a normal year.

The restoration of normal coal supplies during the past year brought about some difficulties for our anthracite producers and I had to take steps to curtail imports of anthracite. Normally, there are no restrictions uponcoal imports, and the curtailment of imports of anthracite was effected by means of an arrangement with the National Coal Board in Britain and was adopted because our home producers were finding difficulty in disposing of their output due very largely to the high level of stocks accumulated by consumers and others during the threatened scarcity of 1951-1952. Imports of anthracite have, therefore, been reduced to half what they were last year and, from the reports which are reaching me, it seems clear that the position in the anthracite collieries, which was causing some concern earlier in the year, has now been remedied.

I do not propose to refer in any detail to the working of Bord na Móna, because I gave a fairly full review of its plans and progress when the Turf Development Act was before the House during last session. It will, however, be necessary to introduce a Bill in the near future to make provision for the financing of the activities of the E.S.B., and on that Bill the board's activities can be discussed in detail. I do not, therefore, propose to deal at any length with the board's work now because that further opportunity of discussing it more effectively will be available to the House.

I want to say one last word about fuel. Last year on this Estimate I referred to the tendency to convert industrial and other plants to the use of fuel oil to the detriment of total turf consumption. That matter was pursued directly with a number of industrial concerns and also through the Departments of Health, Local Government and Education. I am glad to say that in some cases at least a reversion to the use of native fuel has taken place. I had to stand firmly by my announcement that I would not consider applications for State assistance from industries located in the turf areas where the use of turf as fuel would be shown to be economical and in quite a number of instances firms which might have qualified for some form of State assistance were refused it during the course of the year because they were not equipped or were not willing to equip themselves for the use of turf. It is only by takinga firm stand that we can get results. It is not proposed to ask any industry, any institution or any similar concern requiring boiler fuel to use turf where it can be shown that there is any economy or any advantage, having regard to costs of operation, in using any other fuel. In every case where it was necessary to refuse facilities it was possible to demonstrate that native turf fuel properly utilised with the right type of equipment would actually reduce costs and that in forgoing the opportunity to reduce costs the firm was acting contrary to its own commercial advantage.

Mr. Norton

What was the basis of objection after demonstration?

Mr. Lemass

Mainly that they had decided to purchase oil burning equipment and did not want to incur the additional expense of converting it to the use of turf. I should say that nine times out of ten the objection was removed. In some cases they had to be convinced that economy was possible through the utilisation of turf.

It will be noticed that the Estimate for Transport and Marine Services shows a decrease of £850,000, compared with last year. The House is aware, however, that the financial position of C.I.E. continues to be a cause of concern. A Supplementary Estimate for £1,100,000 had to be taken in February last, making the total provision for the 1952-53 financial year £2,400,000. The provision for the present year is £1,500,000 and there is now fair reason to think that C.I.E. may be able to work within that figure. That is due almost entirely, I think, to the reduction in fuel costs which occurred during the year and to the bringing into service of the new diesel railcars.

When the Government had before it the need for an increased subsidy last year it decided to direct C.I.E. to produce proposals for its reorganisation and re-equipment, such proposals to be of a character likely to lead to a position in which the amount required by way of subsidy from public funds would be progressively reduced until itdisappeared. I received from C.I.E. its reorganisation proposals. They involve the modernisation of rolling stock and the extensive use of diesel traction. The total cost of the programme which C.I.E. has prepared is about £10,500,000. I should, perhaps, make it clear that that is additional to the £2,500,000 which the board raised earlier this year. Most of that expenditure is earmarked for new rolling stock.

It is anticipated by the board that the net improvement in the revenue position as a result of that reorganisation and after allowing interest on the additional capital that has to be raised to make it possible will be in or about equivalent to the present losses. Because of the magnitude of the capital expenditure involved, that estimate of the board was not accepted without very careful investigation of the board's anticipated costs and savings and I may say that the investigation bore out the accuracy of the C.I.E. estimate.

Mr. Cosgrave

Does that mean it will be additional to the present loss of £1,500,000?

Mr. Lemass

No. What I am saying is that the improvement of the revenue position will, it is estimated, be equivalent to the present loss and therefore wipe out that loss, assuming other costs remain the same. Before finalising proposals regarding the future of C.I.E., I, as the House knows, thought it well to solicit the views of the representatives of the trade unions who have members employed by the undertaking. I asked these trade unions to set up a consultative council to prepare and submit to me their proposals for the improvement of the C.I.E. position whether these proposals did or did not involve legislation. The terms of reference of the consultative committee which the trade unions formed were drawn as widely as possible and their report, which was submitted to me in July last, has since been published.

The reorganisation proposals of C.I.E. and the recommendations of theTrade Union Consultative Committee are now being examined in detail with a view to submitting to the Dáil proposals for legislation to give effect to the Government's decisions regarding them. The legislation will, I hope, be available to the House, if not in this session, then early in the next session.

The House is aware that the negotiations for the establishment of a joint board to operate the G.N.R. undertaking reached satisfactory conclusions and the new board came into operation in September last. A Supplementary Estimate has been circulated and is being taken with this Estimate. That Supplementary Estimate is partly required by reason of the fact that the money made available under the main Estimate is for payments to the G.N.R. Company; it is not possible to use the balance left available to make payment to the board. It is as simple as that—merely to extend the authority which the Dáil has given to make payments to the company to cover payments made to the new board. In fact, however, it is also necessary because of an anticipated increase in the losses incurred by the G.N.R. undertaking during the present year. The estimate of losses upon which the figure in the book was based was prepared in January last. It is clear, however, to date, that the losses are likely to be higher than was then assumed and consequently some additional payment will be made.

Deputies will remember that I told them that under the provisions of the Great Northern Railway Act and the agreement which was scheduled to that Act a scheme is to be prepared for the apportionment between the two areas of the profits or losses of the undertaking. The responsibility for preparing that scheme rests in the first instance on the board of the undertaking. The scheme has not yet been submitted for approval and consequently it is necessary for the purpose of this Supplementary Estimate to assume that our share of the estimated losses of the undertaking will be calculated on the same basis as that adopted prior to the agreement, up to 30th August last. On that basis, anapportionment of the estimated losses shows that a sum of £310,000 falls to be met by this House and, as the balance remaining in the sub-head amounts only to £124,000 the net amount to be provided under the Supplementary Estimate is £186,000.

If it should turn out that payments made to the company before the transfer of the undertaking to the board were in excess of the actual losses accruing up to the date of the transfer, then a credit against that sum may be available.

There is a provision in the Estimate for £541,000 for improvement works at harbours. That provision represents a substantial increase on the amount actually expended upon harbour works in the previous year. During the previous financial year, works towards which State grants had been made were in progress at Arklow, Ballina, Cork, Dublin, Rathmullen and Fenit, while the works at Killybegs and Sligo were completed. Preliminary arrangements were also made at a number of other harbours for carrying out works for which State grants had been approved. It may be of interest to the Dáil to know that since it was decided, in 1946, to adopt the principle of making State financial grants available for harbour improvement works—and that was decided solely as a special measure intended to deal with difficulties that had emerged from the war—improvement schemes have been carried out at 20 harbours, and the total cost of these schemes to date is over £5,000,000, towards which State grants of nearly £2,500,000 have been made.

In some cases these harbour works could not have been made possible at all if local authorities had not given valuable help generally by means of guaranteeing loans raised by harbour authorities for improvement works. It is, I think, desirable that in all cases local authorities should show their confidence in the future of the harbours in their areas by assisting in the financing of their improvement in that particular way. At the present time there are proposals from seven harbour authorities before me which involve substantial expenditure and which contemplate heavy State subventions.However, in some cases at least the adoption of these proposals will be dependent upon the local authorities agreeing to carry some part of the risk involved.

The expansion of our merchant shipping fleet is Government policy, and in consequence of that Irish Shipping Ltd. has placed orders for approximately 40,000 tons of new shipping. Some of these are due for delivery in 1956 and some in 1957. One oil tanker of 3,000 tons is due for delivery next year. There is one dry cargo vessel of 9,000 tons also due for delivery in the near future. An additional collier of 1,400 tons is also being built. The existing collier was placed on charter to C.I.E. for the cross-Channel coal trade. When the new vessels have been delivered the Irish Shipping fleet will total 118,000 tons. Deputies will, no doubt, have been pleased to note that Irish Shipping Ltd. made a profit on their recent year of operation notwithstanding some difficulties prevailing during the period, and I hope that that situation will continue, because it will, of course, facilitate the process of financing the new building programme, which is estimated to cost about £6,250,000.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that the first large ship to be built in this State since 1937, that is the new vessel, the Isolde, built for the Irish Lights Commissioners, was completed at a Dublin dockyard during the year. Everybody concerned and in a position to offer expert opinion paid tribute to the workmanship and finish of that ship, which was stated to be of high quality and a credit to the Irish craftsmen. It is a splendid advertisement for the capacity of Dublin ship building, and I hope that it will lead to increased business in our yards.

The Estimate for Aviation and Aeronautical Services shows a decrease on last year. Aer Lingus continues to expand their business. There was an increase of 9 per cent. in the passengers carried in the year which ended March last, but in that year there was some slight reduction in the number of flights. Unfortunately, the operations concerned did not producea profit. There was, in fact, a loss from the company's operation of £83,813 and it is possible that that loss may be repeated in the present year. It is, however, a measure of the company's confidence in the future that, instead of looking for subsidies from the Exchequer to cover that loss, they have decided to carry it forward in their accounts in the hope of wiping it out by future profits.

One of the most remarkable developments so far as civil aviation is concerned was the increase in traffic at Shannon Airport which occurred during the year. There was a substantial increase in both the number of aircraft landings and in the number of passengers passing through Shannon in 1952 and that increase has been repeated in the present year to date. Shannon Airport is, however, still operated at a loss in the sense that the total revenue received from the airport services is less than the total expenditure involved in providing those services but, of course, it is necessary to take into account, before any fair picture can be drawn, the many indirect benefits which result from the existence of the airport and which it is not always possible to evaluate in terms of money.

The House will remember that last year I got a Supplementary Estimate to provide funds in connection with an arrangement then in contemplation for the operation of a transatlantic service by Aer Linte in partnership with an American company called Seaboard and Western Airlines. The agreement between Aer Linte and Seaboard and Western Airlines contemplated the leasing of aircraft from Seaboard and Western for an initial period of about 3½ years. It was contemplated that at the end of the 3½ years' experimental period it would be open to Aer Linte to assess the prospects of the service more accurately and to decide if those prospects seemed good enough to operate it with its own aircraft. It was considered for a number of reasons that that service should begin in 1953. However, under the practice of the United States, the sanction of the United States Civil Aeronautics Corps was required for that proposed service. The decision of the Civil AeronauticsCorps was considerably delayed. That may have been due to the fact that there was a change of Government in the United States about that time, or possibly through pressure of business on the board, but it was not given until January, 1953, and at that date it was clearly impracticable to attempt to begin to operate the service in this year. Further than that, the Civil Aeronautics Board decided to impose a limit of two years on the operation of the arrangement. The delay in giving the decision made it impossible to commence the service in 1953, and the two years' limitation made it, in our view, impossible to commence it at all, because it was contemplated that the service would probably lose money in the first two years of its existence but could hope to recover those losses if continued over a longer period. Nobody would undertake the risk of offering a service limited to a life of two years. Consequently, the whole project was abandoned. The future possibilities in regard to transatlantic operation are again under consideration by the Government, but it may now be assumed that the arrangement contemplated for operation in the present year will not proceed.

I informed the House in November last that the Government had decided to establish an airport in Cork with a view to the operation of scheduled air services from that city. A very detailed technical examination was required so as to enable decisions to be made as to the location, character and cost of a suitable airport there. A number of reports were received on various sites in County Cork. The information which was acquired as a result of these investigations is now being embodied in a report which will be submitted to the Government. The decision to establish an airport in Cork has been taken. The only questions remaining open for further consideration are where it is to be and the exact form it is to take.

Further expenditure will be necessary during the course of the year both at Shannon Airport and Dublin Airport which are now too small to handle the increased number of passengers usingthem. Therefore, extensions of the passenger-handling facilities at both airports are under consideration.

The Tourist Traffic Act was passed last year. An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte—organisations set up under that Act—have been functioning. The Act provided that An Bord Fáilte should be paid a grant not exceeding £250,000 in any one year. Since then, the board has been extending its organisation and preparing its plans generally and getting itself in a position to fulfil the task given to it to do under the Act. It has not, however, made as much progress as we might have expected. In the present financial year a provision of £140,000 will be required by the board. I have caused representations to be made to the board with a view to having it consider what measures it should take to expand its rate of progress and to get ahead more speedily with the fulfilment of the task entrusted to it. I think the House is aware of the importance which should rightly be attached to the development of the tourist trade and we cannot afford to proceed with plans for it on too leisurely a basis. However, a new grading scheme for hotels was prepared by the board, after consultation with the industry, and has been put into operation this year. A scheme for guaranteed loans for the construction, extension and improvement of hotels was introduced in December last and, in fact, a number of applications for guarantees under that scheme have already been granted.

Steps are being taken to promote the formation of local development companies at tourist resorts and a scheme of guaranteed loans for resort development has also been announced by the board. The importance of promoting local enterprise of that kind in the development of holiday resorts will be obvious. I trust that the facilities which will be available to the local companies under the board's scheme will be used. That Act also empowered the board to protect historical places, sites and shrines; to provide access to places of special interest, and to provide notices and signs appropriate to such places. The board tell me that they have been in consultationwith the various other authorities interested—the Commissioners of Public Works and the National Monuments Advisory Committee—and have prepared plans of certain historical places such as Tara, Clonmacnoise and Cashel. I hope that next year it will be possible to record a considerable increase in activity by the board under that head. Plans for the better sign-posting of roads are also being made and are now being proceeded with.

The Act provided for a similar grant of £250,000 to Fógra Fáilte, which is the publicity organisation, and it is estimated that a sum of approximately £235,000 will be required to meet the expenditure of Fógra Fáilte during the present year. The adequate discharge of publicity functions demands the operation of a comprehensive and continuous publicity campaign. The amount which we can afford to provide for that purpose is small in comparison with the expenditure of other countries but I think it is well spent and that a considerable measure of success has been achieved. Fógra Fáilte made arrangements for the direction of tourist bureaux both at home and abroad and negotiated an agreement with the Tourist Association for the management by it of the tourist bureaux in this country.

There are some matters which I know Deputies are interested in and to which I have not referred, but it would take me too long to deal with them in any comprehensive way now. Perhaps I should mention one further matter because I know that I will be asked about it and that it is better to explain the position now than to have it misunderstood during the course of the debate. A special arrangement had to be made a couple of years ago to secure the liquidation of a debt due by the Irish tanners to the carcase meat exporters. Under that arrangement — which had its origins in the time of the previous Government—certain payments were due to the exporters of carcase meat, payments which were designed to compensate them for the fact that the price of hides abroad was higher than the price at home.

When the price of hides abroad fell —as they did fall very substantially— a very difficult situation arose and, in fact, no payments were made until a substantial debt was accumulated. Arrangements were made to liquidate that debt. A company was formed called Associated Irish Tanners, Ltd. They borrowed money from the bank, paid the amount due to the carcase meat exporters, and then proceeded to recover the amount due to the bank by a levy upon the hides purchased by their own members. That arrangement has continued in existence since then and it will be necessary to continue it until some date in the middle of next year. The proceeds of the levy have not yet liquidated the debt due to the banks, and until that debt is liquidated the present controls will have to be maintained. I have already indicated that it is my intention that when that debt has been discharged the existing system of controlling the prices and the export of hides and skins will be reexamined. I know that some Deputies have misunderstood that arrangement. It is one that I certainly would never have liked to bring about, and it is one that I am anxious to get rid of as quickly as possible. However, there is no way by which the debt which the tanning industry has acquired—whether or not they should ever have been saddled with it is another question, but they have the debt—can be discharged except in that particular manner. The sooner the situation can be cleared up by collecting enough from the levy to clear off the debt, the sooner I will be pleased and the sooner the industry can be removed from a variety of Government restrictions.

Deputy Dillon has been asking questions about the export policy of certain Irish firms who are selling their products abroad at lower prices than prevail at home. I have tried to explain to him that the prices charged for the goods concerned at home are regarded as reasonable, in relation to their cost of production, by the Prices Advisory Body. It is quite clear that goods can only be sold abroad at the market prices prevailing abroad, but if a sufficient volume of business can be built up, export sales, even at lower prices, can help to bring downand keep down the cost of commodities at home. In the particular case to which Deputy Dillon refers, it is quite clear to me, from my examination of the position, that if export sales ceased, the cost of the goods in the home market would have to go up because the lower output would increase the cost of their production. We cannot hope to develop export sales on any other basis than getting for our goods the prices prevailing in export markets.

It is not unusual for industrial firms in every country to develop export markets from time to time by making their goods available in them at prices which they could not maintain for a long period, prices lower than they would normally seek to recover their costs and overhead expenses; but in case there should be any misunderstanding of the position affecting the particular firm concerned, a misunderstanding which perhaps might lead to action against their exports under the trade agreement of 1938, I want to make it quite clear that there is no suggestion whatever that they are subsidising exports from home market prices and that the prices at which they are selling abroad are the highest prices they can get abroad. If they can get increased prices for these goods outside the country, there will be nobody better pleased than they.

Mr. Cosgrave

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. The procedure of discussing Estimates at this time of the year is unsatisfactory from the point of view of having a proper discussion on the results of the previous year and comparing the figures for the previous year with the prospects for the current year, but a situation has developed here in which business has got into arrears, and I suppose there is no alternative to discussing Estimates whenever it is possible to get them considered by the House.

I believe that the results contained in various publications published by different Government Departments, as well as the statistics available, show that it is time to consider what hasbeen achieved in the industrial sphere. Looking back over the results for, say, the past 30 years, a considerable amount has been achieved. Progress in many directions has been made and, in other directions, maintained, but the overall picture requires definite examination in order to see whether the results that have been achieved and the progress that has been made justify the co-operative complacency which sometimes appears in statements by the Ministers and which is shown by a cursory glance at the statistics for industrial employment, as well as the figures for new industries.

If the figures are examined, it is apparent that, although there has been a substantial rise, from something over 100,000 persons in insurable industrial employment in 1926, when the first census was taken, to something approximating to 220,000 persons in 1951-52, and although that figure is itself satisfactory, when account is taken of the large numbers who have left employment on the land, it is true to say that those who have been absorbed into industrial employment no more than compensate for the large numbers who have left work on the land. In fact, the only compensatory feature from an employment point of view is that if the industrial expansion had not proceeded as rapidly as it has, a much larger number would have been obliged to seek work elsewhere.

There are, of course, many other advantages from the point of view of trade and from the point of view of the general economic strength of the country in that we have produced here, as a result of the expansion of industry, goods which we formerly imported or goods which we imported to a greater extent; but the position which has developed shows that there has been very little real progress in the sense of providing employment here for the large number each year who reach employable age, because the majority of those people reaching employable age each year seek employment either locally or in our cities and towns, and those who fail to find it emigrate. The emigration figures, I believe, prove that the trend which has manifested itself over the years hascontinued in this year and, with a few exceptions in odd years, the numbers emigrating show little tendency towards abatement or substantial reduction.

When the Industrial Development Authority was established, one of its functions was to examine the effect of protection on industrial development, to ascertain what had been achieved and inquire into what prospects there were of further development or what prospects might be available if certain proposals were adopted. I believe that, since the alteration in the work of the Industrial Development Authority, no body is charged with that responsibility, and I think it is correct to say that some body, other than the Dáil or Seanad, should inquire into the effect of protection in order to ascertain what has happened and in order to get a general picture, so that the House and the country may have available up-to-date information on the results of protection in particular industries.

It is not possible to get a complete survey in a short period or a complete survey over the whole field, but, selecting at intervals particular industries, it ought to be possible to get a picture of the effect of protection, the long term prospects before these industries and the incidence of costs and other matters which affect those industries, or which affect consumers or customers who buy in the case of certain industries and who are obliged to pay higher charges because of any assistance which is provided here. That position, if it were examined, would, I believe, reveal information on which it would be possible to assess the future policy which should be adopted and from which useful particulars could be presented to Deputies and to the country as to the effects in various spheres of the industrial expansion. The Industrial Development Authority is, I understand, now solely confined to an examination of new industrial projects, to assisting the establishment of new projects or the extension of existing projects. It was certainly understood when that body was established, that while engaged in that particular aspect ofthe work, it would take into account and examine other matters such as those to which I have referred.

The Minister in the course of his speech referred to the fact that the Prices Advisory Body was still in existence. It seems strange that he had to give that assurance to the House. I had, as one of the matters which I intended to raise on this Estimate, a note to inquire as to what had happened the Prices Advisory Body, had it ceased to function or had it been shorn of its activities, because it is functioning nominally but not effectively and is doing nothing to operate an efficient system of price control. It is, I think, well to remind the House that one of the published terms of the present Government's programme, immediately prior to its advent to office, was to operate an effective system of price control and, incidentally, to maintain food subsidies. Since then the cost of living in this country has reached the highest level ever known.

It is true that there was an insignificant drop in the figures for August last of one point. Is the Prices Advisory Body to be superseded or replaced by some permanent body set up under legislation in the future, or is it to be assumed that its days are numbered? I believe there is still useful work before it if it is allowed to function effectively and if the general picture of prices, costs and so forth, is placed before it or even if specific cases are referred to it for examination. When the Prices Advisory Body examined particular cases referred to it either in public or in private, in some cases the public, if they did not get a reduction, at any rate got reasons for the high cost of the commodities in question. In other cases, they were fortunate enough to get a small reduction and, in one particular instance that comes to mind, a substantial reduction was effected as the result of an inquiry by the Prices Advisory Body. This year has shown that import prices in almost all countries have fallen and, as a result of the fall in import prices, the cost of living in a number ofcountries showed a reduction as well. In some cases there was a small increase.

Recently the O.E.E.C. published the result of a survey carried out by that organisation for the Council of Europe. That survey showed, for a number of member countries, the position in regard to the cost of living for the first six months of 1953 and for the first six months of 1952. It is significant that the biggest rise in the cost of living of any of the member countries as published in that report occurred in Ireland. The figures in that report on page 12 show that for the first six months of 1953 as compared with the first six months of last year, the cost of living had risen in this country by plus nine, or nine points. Norway and Britain were the two countries, next to Ireland, in which the largest rise occurred and they showed an increase of four points. In some countries there was a small reduction and in some others the change was negligible. But the two countries that showed the largest increase in the cost of living other than this country were Britain and Norway, each of which showed an increase of four points. In this country during the first six months of this year there was a rise of nine points. We know that the figures published recently for the August indices have shown a drop of one point. In that situation, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs recently described 1953 as being the best year ever. In what way the description "the best year ever" was intended to apply, it is difficult to understand.

Pending the dissolution or the death of the Prices Advisory Body, and in order that some effort may be made to implement the undertaking given in the programme published by the Government before it was elected, I would suggest that a number of categories of foodstuffs or a number of commodities should be referred to that body for examination. Even if it may not be possible to get a reduction in prices, at any rate the public will be afforded,by a careful examination by that body and by the report which will be published afterwards, reasons which will enable them to decide what are the factors which are responsible for the rise in the cost of living in the first six months of this year, a rise which surpasses that of any other member-country of the O.E.E.C. and which brought the cost of living to the highest level we have seen since figures were first compiled for the country.

That high cost of living has had its effect not merely on those people who are in employment but has pressed even more heavily on those who are seeking work. The whole aim of industrial development, as well as to provide the goods we require, is to provide employment. Despite the claim which the Minister made that the trade recession has passed, I think anyone who is familiar with the conditions in at least one trade will agree that there is as great a recession, if not a greater recession, in the building industry at the present time than at any time in recent years. There are fewer people employed at present, according to the figures published by the Central Statistics Office, on house building and construction than in any recent year, either in the immediate past years or in the years since the war ended and the industry got going again when supplies became available. The latest figures show that there are approximately 7,000 operatives, including skilled and unskilled, employed as against 12,000 or 13,000 in the same industry within the last two years. That recession in the building industry has been reflected in a general recession throughout the City of Dublin and in many parts of the country as well.

As far as the recession in building is concerned, the main effect of it has been felt in Dublin. There is a paper reduction in the figures on the unemployment register—and I use the words "paper reduction" advisedly—but it is a matter of comment that only this week I saw Gardaí controlling the traffic outside the labour exchanges so great was the queue of those wishing to register. It is significant in the light of that set of circumstances that any claim can be made that the traderecession has passed. It is true that it has eased for some businesses. Some businesses have found conditions easier. Some of the stocks that were accumulated in the past have been disposed of and more normal conditions appear to be returning. But as far as the building workers are concerned, and from the point of view of the City of Dublin the building industry is one of the most important if not the most important industry, the effects not only on those directly employed but indirectly on business and trade have been considerable.

The situation is such that not merely is there no ground for complacency, but I believe the large numbers seeking work, the large numbers registering, according to the published figures of the Department of Social Welfare or the Central Statistics Office, must give the House and the country cause for the gravest concern. If the trend as shown by the numbers employed in the building industry continues, then the situation which has developed over the last couple of years will have serious repercussions not only on those directly concerned but throughout this city and the other cities and towns where a similar situation has developed.

The Minister referred to the establishment of Córas Tráchtála and to the reports of the American experts who visited this country and who examined the prospect of increasing exports to the dollar area. If there is one matter which has been the subject of careful examination it is the possibility of extending and developing our trade to the dollar area. The reports which were published and which have been circulated by Córas Tráchtála referred to a number of factors and to the difficulties which confront manufacturers in this country and exporters to the United States as well as the problem of maintaining supplies of goods which are already sold there in small quantities.

What I think the House would like to find out is to what extent industrial concerns in this country have benefited by or paid attention to the reports as affecting their particularconcerns. It is entirely within the choice of any industrial concern whether they decide to sell in the dollar area or not. But I think that in the case of the concerns which enjoy the benefit of protection and which get from the State any assistance by way of tariff or quota or are in any other way beholden to the State for help and assistance, where an examination has taken place either by officers of Córas Tráchtála or by any of the team of experts who have visited this country and carried out an investigation under the auspices of that body, they should be required to furnish to the Department of Industry and Commerce the reasons why they are not making greater efforts to sell in the dollar area or, if they find particular difficulties, what these difficulties are.

I have no doubt that a number of bodies and organisations and individual firms which have endeavoured to get into the American market have gone to Córas Tráchtála and have benefited by the advice given. But as the team of experts commented on the fact that it was possible for this country to sell $1,000,000 worth annually of woollen and worsted goods on what was taken to be a conservative estimate, then I believe that the concerns which enjoy any measure of protection here should be required to furnish the Department of Finance an explanation, or reasons if they find difficulty, for not extending their sales to the dollar area.

It is satisfactory to note that in some commodities a substantial improvement has taken place and that exports have been developed. I note particularly that according to the September issue of the Irish Trade Journal and Statistical Bulletin, whiskey is one of the commodities that shows prospects of increased exports. In that connection, I think it is not generally understood that distillers have particular problems which other concerns are not obliged to face. They have the problem that when a distilling programme is undertaken in any particular year the whiskey will not be sold that year or the next year, but that in five or seven years' time a particular quantitydistilled will be sold either on the home or the export market.

They have to take into account the effect of taxation in the home market as well as the prospects abroad. I believe it would be informative to get a statement from the distilling industry as to the effect the heavy rate of taxation at home has on the distilling programme. There is no doubt that, while the export trade and home trade are entirely different from the point of view of price, the effect of the present high rate of taxation and the substantial drop in consumption, if it continues, must provide problems for the industry which no incentives from the point of view of offering facilities can affect if the high rate of taxation continues and if no accurate estimate of the future trend is available to them.

I believe that for a variety of commodities we have good prospects in the dollar area if we avail of the facilities, if the quality of the goods measures up to the samples initially sent abroad, and if the production is adequate to the demand. In a great number of cases these different reports refer to the fact that initial consignments sent abroad were excellent but that when additional consignments were ordered either the quality was not up to standard or the volume of production was not adequate to the demand. That situation is one which only the manufacturers can remedy themselves. If it is brought home to them that it is in their own interests as well as in the interests of the country, then we can maintain the market which has already been secured for some commodities and extend the others.

I should like to have from the Minister, when he is concluding, some account of his visit to the United States and Canada and what he considers are the prospects for a further extension of goods to the dollar area and what the general picture of trade may be for our exporters who wish to develop trade there.

The establishment last year of two bodies to manage the tourist industry, was, in our view, unnecessary overlapping. I do not think that anything hashappened since the bodies were set up last year which would bring us to alter that view or bring anyone who examines the position to alter that view. The most recent figures show the tourist trade is either static or shows a slight decline. The year 1952 shows that, although there were probably more tourists or visitors here than in the previous year, the expenditure declined by almost £2,000,000.

The figures for this year, so far as it is possible to assess from reports, would indicate that there is no substantial improvement. I believe that there is a great deal of unnecessary overlapping and duplication. It is not within the rules of order to discuss here any alterations in the legislation but certainly nobody can be satisfied with the publicity arrangements which were made in connection with An Tóstal last April.

In that connection, I think it is well that serious consideration should be given, between now and the opening of An Tóstal next year, to an altered date for the future. I know that this matter has been the subject of considerable discussion between the Department of Industry and Commerce, An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte. In addition, numerous references have been made to it by local organisations throughout the country.

While one view may be on the basis of local requirements and tradition, the Department, An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte have to take into account the avowed object of An Tóstal which was to extend the tourist season. It was initially undertaken, I think, at the behest of the experts who came here from America and examined the whole tourist trade. Initially, it was to be held around St. Patrick's Day in order to attract visitors of Irish extraction who would come here in order to celebrate the national festival. This year it was undertaken during the Easter season and, because of the gap between Easter and the beginning of the normal tourist season, a great number of people considered that it was undertaken too soon.

The results next year may give a better estimate on which to base the decision to run An Tóstal during future years but certainly the decisiontaken this year before An Tóstal had ended to run next year's An Tóstal without any proper assessment of the results which had been achieved was, I believe, taken without due consideration of the factors involved.

A number of hoteliers have remarked to me that if An Tóstal could be undertaken immediately prior to the normal tourist season some extension of the season might flow from it. The general impression appears to be that because it was taken this year at Eastertime and because Easter was fairly early there was too wide a gap between the ending of An Tóstal and the beginning of the normal tourist season. Certainly, the whole question requires careful consideration and, if possible, the harmonising of conflicting views.

The publicity arrangements which were undertaken this year in many parts of the Continent and the United States were entirely inadequate and were undertaken far too late to have any effective result. Many people who came from abroad expressed the view that they saw, except in one or two cases, very little about the arrangements for An Tóstal and very little which would indicate to them that this country was making a serious effort to attract a larger number of tourists.

The figures appear to indicate that, despite the efforts that have been made, there has been no substantial increase in the number of tourists. There may have been special circumstances this year because of the Coronation in Britain which attracted tourists from America who would normally have come here. If that is a reason for the lack of any substantial improvement, then it may be understandable. But so far as it is possible to gauge the position, no substantial improvement has taken place in the number of visitors being attracted to this country by the amenities we offer and by the prospects of an enjoyable holiday here.

I believe that the new grading system which is being operated by An Bord Fáilte should enable people to get a better picture of the facilities which are available in Irish hotels andwill generally give a better picture from the point of view of the various organisations in this country to assess the facilities which are available. In addition, it will provide proper standards which visitors and even people from this country enjoying holidays at home may expect to get.

In that connection, the loan facilities which are provided under the legislation could be availed of to a far greater extent by hoteliers. I believe it would pay hoteliers themselves to avail of these facilities. It is satisfactory to know that some loans have already been made and many hoteliers are showing their willingness to make improvements in order to attract tourists to the country or get greater business for themselves.

The Minister referred to the fact that it was proposed to bring in amending legislation in connection with mineral development. As I understand the position, the present prospecting programme in Avoca will shortly come to an end and the money provided will either be exhausted or exceeded in the near future. I think that, before further legislation is undertaken, the House should be given a more comprehensive picture of the position.

The initial reports of the prospecting work which had been undertaken there held out fairly optimistic prospects. The money which was provided over the last few years enabled continuous work to be carried on, and it was anticipated that by now sufficient data would be available on which to base a permanent programme for the future. Certainly, before amending legislation is introduced, the House should be given more information, and facilities should be provided for a full examination of the position. I hope that the reasonably optimistic prospects that were held out some time ago, of a long time development in Avoca, have not been lessened by recent discoveries or results there.

The most significant feature of our trade in the past year has been the reduction in the balance of payments deficit. That reduction has also brought about a change which is worthy of comment. Last year, of ourtotal exports over 86 per cent. went to Britain and the Six Counties as against 84 per cent. in the previous year. That figure shows, despite the efforts that have been made to secure alternative markets and despite the various trade agreements which have been negotiated over the last few years that, if anything, our dependency on our nearest neighbour for the bulk of our exports appears to have increased rather than diminished.

The figure is significant from many points of view, but especially because of the fact that a substantial proportion of our exports are of agricultural origin. The Minister for Agriculture, in reply to a recent parliamentary question, referred to the fact that, before the British Ministry of Food is disbanded, or handed back to private enterprise for the buying of food, consultations will take place between the Government, or his Department, and the appropriate Departments at the other side. I hope that as long notice as possible of that decision will be given to Irish exporters. Mention has been made in articles in the British Press, as well as in statements in the House of Commons, of the intention to wind up the Ministry of Food this year. What effect that will have on prices, on marketing conditions and on our pattern of trade is a matter of speculation, but it is reasonable to assume that some results will flow from it. The longer the notice that our people, particularly our exporters and those interested in the live-stock trade, can get of that decision the better it will be so as to enable them to base their immediate plans and aims. It is to be hoped that the Government will give adequate notice of the proposed decision in so far as it is possible for them to do so.

In the Estimates this year, there is a reduction of over £2,000,000 in the sum required to subsidise flour and wheaten meal. I wonder if the Minister can say whether that reduction is due to a reduction in the price of imported wheat?

Mr. Lemass

That is the total reduction in respect of all food subsidies, but in fact the cost of subsidising flourand bread is somewhat up this year. I should have mentioned that it may mean a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Cosgrave

That applies, then, to all food supplies?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister, in his concluding remarks, referred to the reserve stocks of coal, and to the fact that it will be necessary to provide a sum in the Estimate for fuel subsidies. The circumstances in which that coal was imported were briefly referred to. It was imported, mainly, during the rush to buy in stocks after the Korean war started. It is always a matter of opinion as to what may or may not be an adequate stock to provide a reserve against future contingencies. It is significant that recently the British Ministry of Fuel and Power made an announcement to the effect that it expected that coal supplies this year would be adequate to meet demands. In that connection, I do not know whether it would be worth while trying again to get from the British a reduction in the differential that exists in the export price of coal compared to the price at which it is sold on the home market.

Since the war ended, we have made repeated representations to the effect that the price differential was unfair to us, and although no reference to price was made in the 1938 Agreement, the differential has operated to the detriment of consumers in this country. It has raised costs on domestic consumers as well as on industrial concerns, and I believe that we should continue to press the British Ministry of Fuel and Power for the wiping out of that differential. I know that this is a matter which has been the subject of negotiations and discussions over the years. The fact that it still continues, many years after the emergency supply difficulties have ended, makes it all the more reasonable why we should continue to press our objections to it.

There is another matter on which I should like to get, if possible, some further information. It was referred to to-day at question time and has been the subject of some comment inthe Press. I appreciate that the Department of Industry and Commerce has no control over the imports of timber, and I recognise that, while the situation exists, it is generally not possible to take any effective steps, short of reimposing control. I know Deputies may say that we have, over a number of years, both during the period of office of this Government and of the previous Government, imported timber from Russia. Apart from the fact that special circumstances may have operated there for the buying in of stocks after the Korean war started and from whatever source they were available, I believe that the vast majority of the people of this country do not like to have this country importing timber from Russia. I do not blame the Minister or the Government for that situation; I merely suggest that when supplies are available elsewhere we ought to take them from that source. If they were imported during the period of office of the inter-Party Government there probably were the different circumstances that there was a rush to buy from whatever source supplies were available, but with the easing up of supply difficulties and the updoubted dislike of the vast majority of our people for the Russian system of government, we ought to decide as a matter of policy not to buy from that source. That view is reinforced by the fact that although we buy some commodities from Russia and from other countries behind the Iron Curtain, in the main, none of these countries buy any quantity of goods from this country. We have probably some trade with Czechoslovakia but, by and large, none of these countries buy goods from here. If supplies are available elsewhere I believe we ought to take them from there.

It is an extraordinary situation that less than a year ago we exported from this part of the country to the Six Counties quantities of timber. Again I appreciate that that matter is one for private enterprise, but in a matter of this sort where currency is provided and where State facilities are freely granted, then I believe the State should enter into the matter and should take a general supervisory view of the whole situation. The fact thatwithin the last year we had special trains running to export timber that was available here and that in less than a year we imported timber from Russia prompts us to consider the whole question, and I would suggest to the Minister and the Government that the matter should be examined from that point of view.

The Minister mentioned that it was proposed to introduce legislation in the near future to increase the amount of money made available for the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards. I believe that proposal will be welcomed by the House. Experience of that organisation since it was set up would show that the money provided as well as the facilities for research were entirely inadequate, and the fact that the standard specification or standard mark which has been made available under that Act is not more widely used by manufacturers is probably due to the fact that a great number of people do not realise the importance of proper standards and the importance of industrial research.

This country probably lags behind many European countries in industrial research. We have undoubtedly skilled technicians and technicians of the highest repute in many spheres who are available to carry out this work and who are anxious to do it. I know that for a number of years they have been pressing to get an increased grant as well as to get permission to extend and re-equip the buildings which are available for industrial research. I look forward with interest to the proposals which will come before the House in extension of the work which has already been done.

The Minister mentioned that it was hoped this year to make arrangements for future tea imports and that it was not possible up to now to secure agreement on the arrangements for the import of tea by wholesalers and tea importers. In that connection I think the main interest of the public in tea imports is twofold. Will it mean better quality teas or cheaper tea? The public generally are not greatly concerned with how tea is imported if they can get good tea at reasonable prices. Since the ending of control last yearthere has been a great improvement in the varieties and types of tea made available and of course that has meant teas at different prices. For a long time different interests have been pressing for freedom to buy abroad. I do not know whether it is possible to harmonise the different views of the various interests concerned but it is to be hoped that an arrangement will be made which will enable freedom of action and at the same time guarantee continuous supplies to this country in the event of any future emergency or future difficulties.

The Minister referred to the fact that the experts who carried out mineral exploration had reported on a number of areas and said that it was proposed to start operations in Abbeydown in Sligo and Murvey in County Donegal. I would be interested to know whether these operations in Sligo will be additional to those of the private company that is operating there. As I understand the position a private company was established which carried out certain work there.

Mr. Lemass

That can be judged from the fact that for the exploration which took place in the area the private company are paying part of the cost.

Mr. Cosgrave

It is in conjunction?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Cosgrave

In the case of Donegal I would like to know whether it will be carried out by the experts or by private enterprise. The Minister referred to the position of C.I.E. and to the fact that proposals have been put before his Department for capital reorganisation. In that connection he expressed the hope that it would be possible to work within the limits of the losses provided for in the Estimate. While it is satisfactory to note that development, a number of people are anxious to know whether the dismissal of staff in C.I.E. is to continue.

When the 1950 Act was passed a specific section was put into it and undertakings were given by the thenMinister that normal wastage due to retirement or due to particular positions becoming redundant would operate to allow people to retire. Since then, in the last year or so, a great number of people have had their services dispensed with and at different times very many of the employees expressed concern and alarm at the future prospects for them with the company. That situation was the subject of comment by these employees as well as by the trade union organisations' representatives. I think that when the undertaking was given in the House, that undertaking should as far as possible be honoured or adequate time given as well as proper compensation paid to those who had their services dispensed with. A number of these employees were probably temporary hands who would normally be taken on for particular work at certain periods but the position as I understand it is that greater numbers have since had their services terminated than it was ever expected would be dispensed with in the immediate future when the 1950 Act was passed.

Mr. Davin

Would the Deputy mind stating, because he should know, whether an undertaking was given that those with three years' service and over would not be prejudiced by any future reorganisation.

Mr. Cosgrave

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.