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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Oct 1953

Vol. 142 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Valuation Bill, 1953—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The Bill was introduced to the House as a measure to produce great and important changes. Not only was it alleged that the measure was good and beneficial in itself but it was also suggested that it had been the basis for urging the Government to make an announcement that they were soon to deal with the valuation question themselves. So certain was the chief Opposition on that point that they said they had examined the relative dates and could make a case on that point; but very soon, because of the defects of the measure not only in itself and in what it proposed to do but in the way it would interfere with existing legislation in a detrimental way, the sponsors of the Bill were inclined to make apologies for it and to offer towithdraw it if the Government would take over the problem. Now this valuation question, owing to certain inequalities and injustices which came to my knowledge as head of the public health administration in one of the cities in this State, has made this a very burning question for me for some years past; and surely it is in the knowledge of most of us that at the annual meeting of the Municipal Authorities Association of Ireland in Arklow a couple of years ago this question was discussed very fully.

As the members of the House know, when the records of these annual meetings are prepared and published the chief contents are brought to the Minister for Local Government for his information and attention, and that was done in this case. This problem has been under examination for some time in Government circles, and the public discussion of the matter and the further impetus that was given to it by public representatives here in Dublin brought an announcement from the Government that they had the problem under examination, and that in due course they were providing legislation in a comprehensive way to deal with it, and not in a partial or haphazard fashion.

If there has been any rush in this case, to my mind the defects of the Bill which has been introduced show that there must have been some rush on the part of those who submitted that measure to the House. It is a very important question for the country, and dealing with it in a partial or haphazard way is not going to solve it. We have people in every walk of life affected by it in my experience such as the humble dweller who, in one case that I will cite, when his son was getting married put an improved window on his dwelling, tidied up and plastered the house to make it a substantial dwelling—a humble one indeed —in the suburbs of a southern city that I represent. The result was that the valuation of that dwelling, even though no extra space had been taken in, the main structure had not been in any way altered except just for an improvement of the outside of the buildingby the insertion of a bigger and better window, was increased by approximately 50 per cent To my mind nothing worse could have happened in the old landlord days than a thing like that. If a reasonable increase, a small increase, had been put on nobody would have cavilled at it, but an increase of practically 50 per cent.!

Another case I will cite is that of a skilled family of about eight members who had carried on for a number of years the manufacture of iron gates and things of that kind, ornamental iron work of various kinds. In the expansion of buildings and in the improvement of schools and churches and other things there was an improvement in the business of that firm, and when I called attention to it I was told that that building had last been valued away back in the late 80's or something like that, and that was the only excuse given for it.

There was another instance where a shopkeeper—and the Bill now introduced proposes to deal with these problems—had a shop which was divided downstairs into a number of small rooms or apartments. In order to give more space to his customers and a better appearance to the shop he removed some of those partitions and put standards instead to support the building, and his valuation went up 100 per cent., although it only meant a few coats of paint on decoration and the removal of some partition walls.

Now I am making a case not for this Bill but a case for what is to follow, a case for the deficiencies of the Bill and the cases which should be dealt with. Our rate collectors were castigated here because they reported these matters. It is in the terms of their appointment that they have to do it under penalty, consequently if they see any improvement of that kind or anything relating in their minds to what should be increased valuation they report it to the local authority. The local authority was mentioned last night, and I want here and now to absolve the local representatives from any responsibility in administering that system. The public authority inthis case is the city or county manager. And that is not the worst aspect of the case. The matter is reported to them, an inspection is made of the premises, and the result is that the owners are for some time awaiting the result of that examination. The first they see of it in most cases, in the county or the city that I represent at any rate, is when the blue books come down to the local authority from the valuation offices, the demand notes are prepared and sent out. It is then that the owner of the property sees the new bill he has to face.

He has a certain time to appeal but he has to pay the demand that is made on him there and then, either in two moieties or in one moiety, as the case may be. He can appeal, but within 21 days or something of that sort; but whatever the end of his appeal may be, there and then he had to pay up to the following March on the new valuation set on his property. If he succeeds in his appeal he might get relief in the following year.

The principal result of that kind of system is that they are so disgusted with the whole procedure that they let it go by default. Very often people go to the courts. On one occasion I remember that half a page of the Examinerwas given over to court actions in connection with the assessment of valuations. Wherever any kind of considerable relief was given by the court, costs were given against the valuation authorities. Where the change was small, no costs were given. Why should people be put to all that expense and annoyance just because they improved their property, gave employment and gave better business facilities to the public? Why should this assessment be made against them in the way it is being done? That is what I object to. We actually had to bring a motion to the Cork Corporation asking the manager that, immediately he was notified that there was an increase in valuation, he would notify the affected parties there and then so that they would have an opportunity of appealing before the assessment became effective. To my mind, it is high time that this whole problem was dealt with.

Even though a man goes to the trouble and expense of improving his business premises and making them serviceable, the valuation is on the present day letting value of the property. A man who improves his dwelling-house is doing a public service. The work that he carries out may prevent a charge on the public purse and save a public authority from having to provide a house for him. By reason of his public service, an imposition is placed upon him and his family who succeed him.

Take, for instance, the matter of farm buildings and, perhaps, particularly farm buildings in rather remote districts. Some of the farm buildings are tumble-down buildings that would need to be improved. If you go in and say to the owner that he will get a grant if he improves them he will reply: "I will, but what will my valuation be when the work is carried out?" The whole matter is a vicious circle and needs to be remedied but this Bill does not supply that remedy.

People may say that the rates will come down if the assessments go up, but the same amount of money is being collected for the public services, regardless of the valuations. The only effect would be that some system might be devised whereby these public charges would be more equitably distributed amongst the population. One of my great objections at the present time in this connection is that things are too haphazard. One house in a particular street is picked out. You question it, and you find that it was last valued maybe 50, 60 or 70 years ago. Other houses in the same street are not touched or affected at all. I think it is iniquitous that that can happen in respect of property where no structural alterations have taken place and where no new buildings have been erected. It is a brake on progress and initiative and it is a deterrent to the giving of employment. It has been responsible for the fact that there are derelict eyesores in our towns and cities. The owners are afraid to touch their property even though these eyesores are a shame and a disgrace to our community. The imposition will be sosevere that the owners are not prepared to face it. One of the reasons why we have so many derelict sites and so many eyesores in the way of houses and buildings in our cities and towns is that when a man left a building he would not reconstruct it because of the imposition that would be placed upon him. He would go into a local authority house, or somewhere else, and leave the building an eyesore. If the owner took off the roof he would not have to pay any rates on the property. Such a person should be made remove the erection completely or else put it into serviceable condition and he should not have burdens placed upon him for so doing.

I have very hard feelings about this whole matter. I have made representations and I am glad to see that they are having some effect and that the Government are tackling the matter. However, the measure before the House is simply dealing with the matter in a piecemeal way—just as is happening now with certain properties. That, in itself, is objectionable. Furthermore, there are some matters in this measure which would make confusion worse confounded. For that reason, though I feel very keenly on this question, I am sorry that I do not find myself in a position to agree to this measure which is now submitted for our approval.

I listened to every speech made in this very interesting debate. I want to congratulate the sponsors of this Bill for having, by introducing this Private Members' Bill, drawn public attention, through the speeches that have been made in this debate, to one of the most interesting matters that can be discussed or reviewed in this House.

I agree with the principle of the Bill but I am by no means enthusiastic —in fact, I am very suspicious—about the manner in which this measure will be administered if it is passed into law in its present form. I agree with the principle but I am afraid that the principle is intended to apply only in a very limited way. I do not think that a principle as important as is contained in this Bill should be confinedto any small or reasonably small section of our citizens.

The traders who will benefit immediately if this measure is passed into law in its present form will be in a much more fortunate position with regard to the payment of rates than any other section of citizens. The trader or businessman whose premises are revalued and whose rates are increased as a result of improvements carried out is in the happy position that he can pass these increases on to his customers by way of increased charges. He is an unpaid rate collector, and the trader or businessman who does not make proper provision in the charges he makes to his customers for every commodity he sells over the counter is not a good businessman. He is in a position to recover every charge—rates, wages, interest charges and everything else— and he is a bad businessman if he does not make provision for 10, 20 or 30 per cent. profit, in addition.

That does not apply to the farmer, the producer or agricultural labourer, and I want the mover of the Bill, or any of his colleagues who have signed it, to make it quite clear whether the principle contained in the Bill can, either in its present form or in any way in which it can be amended, be extended to every other section of citizens. I am aware and I have to bear in mind—I have a letter which I received from the Department of Local Government to-day which I could read to confirm what I am saying—that there is a scheme now about to be sanctioned by the Minister for Local Government—it will be sanctioned in the next few days—giving 2,400 tenants of labourers' cottages in County Laois the right to purchase their cottages under the 1936 and 1950 Cottage Purchase Acts.

I am aware, as every other Deputy representing a rural constituency is aware, that, as soon as the tenants of these cottages acquire that right, one of the first things that will have to be done, particularly in the case of cottages in which there are large families, is the provision of an additional room or two to provide proper accommodation for these large families.

That has been done even before now, and, where it has been done in my area, the county council concerned has either charged the tenant a lump sum payment for the additional room built by the local authority or have added a certain amount per week as rent. I want to be assured by Deputy Sweetman, by Deputy O'Higgins or by somebody giving enthusiastic support to the Bill in its present form, that the tenants of labourers' cottages who build additional rooms or carry out any other necessary improvements will receive the full benefit of the Bill. Otherwise, I do not like the idea of voting in favour of a Bill, the principle of which I agree with, when I feel suspicious that its full benefits can be given only to businessmen and traders, as it appears to me from the contents of the Bill and the speeches made in favour of it. I shall gladly welcome an assurance in this regard from Deputy Sweetman or Deputy O'Higgins.

I was rather surprised by the speech delivered by Deputy MacCarthy because he has a long and honourable experience of the work of one of the principal local authorities in the State. It appears to me from the way he delivered himself here that he was not aware or fully satisfied that these increases in valuations and rates, following the carrying out of improvements, are initiated by the local authority. To show the kind of confusion that exists in other places, I can say that one of the county councils in the counties I have the honour to represent passed a resolution less than a year ago protesting against increases in valuations following the carrying out of improvements to farm and business premises in the county. With other Deputies for the constituency, I was requested to accompany the chairman, vice-chairman and selected members of the council on a visit to the Commissioner of Valuation. I told them outside the door that they were in a bit of a jam, that they were coming up there to protest against increases in rates following the carrying out of improvements, without knowing that it was their own local authority and the county manager, in particular, who was mainly responsible.

We waited outside the door of the commissioner's office for a considerable time, and the county manager did not turn up. I suspected he was not going to turn up, and my suspicion was well founded, because he did not do so. I went into the commissioner's room with the deputation, and I want to pay a tribute to the commissioner and the staff around him for the courtesy and consideration I have always received from him on the limited number of occasions on which I accompanied deputations or made representations in the case of an appeal. The commissioner, his colleagues and his staff are merely carrying out the law, and they do it very courteously. If they have to say: "No; we cannot do all you are asking," they give a very full and detailed explanation, and any intelligent person can carry that explanation back to the people for whom he speaks.

I went in there on that occasion and it was only after half an hour or so, when the commissioner came to reply to the deputation, that the representatives of the county council discovered for the first time that they were there under false pretences, and that it was the rate collector, in the first instance and the county manager mainly, who were responsible for the increase in rates as a result of the improvement of premises. The deputation went home and the next time a discussion took place on the matter, it was not as friendly in all respects as it was on the occasion on which they appointed the deputation to see the commissioner under false pretences. Is Deputy MacCarthy fully satisfied even now, following the statement of the Minister for Finance, that these applications for increases in valuations, followed by increased rates, are and must be initiated by the servants of the local authority and the county or city manager concerned?

I stated in the course of what I said how the thing is initiated, but I said that it is in the terms of appointment of the rate collector, and that he is obliged to do it. What I objected to, as I said, was the excessive assessments imposed as a result of these requests.

My education has been considerably improved on this matter by the debate. I received some lessons from the Commissioner of Valuation and his staff, and I now accept what Deputy MacCarthy has said.

I heard a speech delivered by a colleague on my left in which I heard for the first time charges of political prejudice against rate collectors in the carrying out of their statutory duties in this connection. I am not a member of the local authority, but it was the first time I heard political charges of that type bandied about. There may be some rate collectors who suffer from loss of memory or bad eyesight and who cannot see every case in which improvements have been carried out, with the result that some fortunate citizens do not come under notice; but I have yet to learn, and I represent my constituency for over 31 years, that any kind of political prejudice under any particular type of Government or any particular political complexion on any county council, has been manifested in matters of this kind. I am not satisfied that that charge can be substantiated, so far as I am aware, of what is going on in my constituency.

I listened very attentively to the Minister for Finance in the very lengthy speech he delivered on this matter. There is only one complaint, but it is a serious complaint, I have to make against the Minister. Are we not entitled to hear something of the type of legislation that will be introduced in the very near future in accordance with the terms of speech made outside this House by the Taoiseach some time ago? It is no harm to give us the general framework of the proposed measure. I know it would not be right to ask for the details but there is no harm in asking that there should be some more detailed statement of Government policy in regard to this question than was contained in the general terms of the proposed amending legislation given by the Taoiseach outside this House some time ago. I have an idea that any and every Act passed by theBritish House of Commons which affects this country should be subject to review in this House. Some of these Acts should have been reviewed and repealed long ago. Here we have an Act which is 101 years old. I have not heard anybody protest because Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Sweetman are asking for the revision in a modest form of an Act passed 101 years ago.

Apart from this Act, are Deputies aware of the fact that there are many old Victorian Acts passed during the period when we had representation in the British House of Commons that have been reviewed so far as they affect Britain but which have not been reviewed or repealed as they should be in this Legislature? Is that not a disgraceful state of affairs? I saw a decision given in the courts recently in the form of a reserved judgment. Judgment was reserved because the issues raised were very complicated. That reserved judgment was held up for seven weeks because I suppose the judge—and I am not criticising the decision of any judge—knew as the eminent counsel engaged in the case knew, that the particular Act upon which the case was based had been drastically revised in the British House of Commons but that the necessary revision had not been carried out, as it should have been carried out here by amending legislation. That amending legislation should have been contained in the Harbours Act of 1948. I am not going to refer further to that judgment but I do press Deputy Sweetman, Deputy Morrissey or Deputy O'Higgins to give us some further assurance that the Bill, to which they are now asking the House to give a Second Reading, will be a measure the benefits of which will not be confined to any small section of our citizens but that the principle of the Bill will be applied to every section in the State.

As a member of a local authority, I am very glad indeed to have an opportunity of voicing my opinion on this Bill. I gladly support it and I do so because I feel, from myexperience of public life in the City of Limerick, that grave injustices have been inflicted as a result of the increased valuations placed on many premises. Having listened last night and again to-night to many of the speeches delivered, I do not think that so much opposition should be levelled against this Bill merely because it came from this side of the House. I was very glad to hear Deputy MacCarthy who knows the position in Cork, just as I do in Limerick, voice his opinion on it. Some years ago, not many years ago, I must confess that I was somewhat in the same position as that in which Deputy MacCarthy finds himself in Cork. I remember when the valuation officers came into my particular street, William Street, in Limerick. Nobody seemed to know who they were or where they came from. They gave no information of that kind but I will say, in fairness to them, that they were very courteous. They visited me the same as they visited everybody else. I asked the particular man who called on me what his business was and he told me. He told me of the hot reception he got in some places and I told him of the hot water into which I got as a result of his visit to some of my neighbours.

I must say at the outset that I considered the valuation officers who came to Limerick were very fair-minded men. I also consider that in dealing with any representations we made to their higher officers here in Dublin, they were reasonable, and in no way could it be said that they were vindictive. I felt, to my grief, that they were carrying out their duty, but while you may praise a man for doing his duty, you must remember the hardships that are imposed as a result of an Act which, as has already been stated, is over 100 years old. I believe that the repeal of that Act is overdue and that this Bill is a step in the right direction.

It may be argued that this Bill affects a section only and that it does not go far enough. If that be so, it is the duty of the Government in my opinion to bring in a better Bill and, if they do, we shall gladly support it.I am a member of the Limerick Corporation on which all shades of political opinion are represented, and we are unanimous that, as things stand at present, grave hardships have been imposed on many people as a result of revaluations that have occurred in recent years. As a member of the Chamber of Commerce in Limerick for a number of years, and also as a member of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, I know that this has been practically one of the leading questions raised at every meeting so that there must be something wrong. People do not start talking for nothing. I never saw any division of opinion in the bodies of which I am a member as to the hardships imposed by this Act. It is true, perhaps, that in many cases an adjustment was needed but, if so, it is evident that this Act, now over 100 years old, was at some time or other administered unfairly—in other words, that somebody got away with it. If the Act is wrong, to that extent we have no grievance against the valuation commissioners.

The point I want to stress here to-night is concerned with the case of every shopkeeper or person engaged in business who, through his industry has accumulated a certain amount of wealth and capital, and is prepared to put that capital into the business. I feel that that man is entitled to spend his money to the best of his ability and judgment. There is no doubt that any businessman or any man engaged in industry to-day is pretty well watched by the Revenue Commissioners.

They are very well able to take care of their own end of things and to take a slice of any profits for which his industry or initiative is responsible. If the capital which has been left is applied by him to improve his business or an industry in which he is interested I think all credit is due to him. I say that as an encouragement a remission of two-thirds should be given as in the case of new houses. Perhaps a two-thirds remission may be considered too generous, but there should be some sliding scale at least. For that reasonI support this Bill because it is a step in the right direction.

I am at present chairman of the An Tóstal Committee in Limerick City. We got instructions from the authorities in Dublin to see what we could do to brighten our city and attract tourists and to make our city more attractive even for our own people. I am proud to be able to say that last year in Limerick we made a very great effort to do that in co-operation with the authorities in Dublin and I can say that the citizens of Limerick did their part. We are prepared to do that again this year. Part of our programme is to go around the principal streets getting the people to brighten up their shops and have more illumination; in other words to go to considerable expense. If by that means we can induce people with capital to put that capital into their business premises and improve them, it is only fair that we should ask through this Bill that some consideration would be given to them.

If a man spends two or three thousand pounds on a business premises it is unfair that the valuation officers should come along some months afterwards and increase his valuation by 50 per cent. or perhaps 100 per cent. I think that that man should be held up as an example to others because he has improved his premises. For that reason I think some concession should be given to him. If a two-thirds remission is not given it should be a remission of some substantial size.

It was stated by one of the speakers last night that people should not be shouting about increased valuations, that they had their remedy. We know that there is a remedy, but it is very expensive. I had to deal with a number of cases of this kind in Limerick, and I found that while the increase in some cases was only a small one, in other cases it was a substantial one. It was decided to have some test cases of private houses and shops in what we call the leading business street and a secondary street. A comparison was made last night between the number of increased valuations and the small number ofpeople who appealed against them. The reason for the small number is that all the people did not go into court and pay substantial fees to solicitors, barristers, valuers, etc. Instead of that, test cases were taken. I believe that very few accepted this imposition as being something which they should have placed upon them.

I know of a case in Limerick where a valuation of £300 on a factory was increased to £800 because substantial additions were made. The directors decided to get a man who had experience of valuations to go into the matter and, as a result of his examination and the way in which he presented the case to the valuation officers, the valuation was reduced by £100. Is it not evident that something was wrong there, that somebody had blundered? Is it a case of thinking of a number or having a shot at it or doing what the income-tax people do? If they have a suspicion that you are not paying what you should in income-tax they will double or treble what they think you are earning and then say to you: "Prove to us that you are not earning that amount."

When such things are happening I think it is about time for the Government to bring in a Bill to rectify matters. We should not be talking about who brought in this Bill. Even if they were members of Fine Gael it ought to be to their credit. If it removes grievances or injustices that exist owing to an Act of Parliament which was inherited by this State I think all sides of the House should be in agreement about it. If they are not in agreement with the Bill, they should say so. I am glad that Deputy MacCarthy spoke as he did. I am sure he spoke as the people of Cork whom he represents wished him to speak, and that is to bring to the notice of the authorities injustices which can be imposed on them.

Many people will say: "It is a nice thing to see that man's premises improved, but after all he has the money and what about it?" I know of business houses in Limerick which eight or ten years ago were doing a very substantial trade, and as a result of improvements the valuations were increasedwith the result that the owners are paying very much higher rates, and, unfortunately, our rates in Limerick are on the increase. Because of the drive made in Limerick to cure the slum problem which existed and the transfer of people to other areas those people lost a lot of their customers although they have to pay high rates, high income-tax and high charges to the E.S.B. People who started shops in these other areas have now developed substantial businesses. But as a result of that the valuation officers have not come back and said to these business people: "How is business now?" They are not concerned with them.

As far as I can see in Limerick and from what I am told there is very little use in asking for a reduction in valuation because they will not reduce valuations except in very extreme cases. They will, however, be only too glad to increase valuations.

I am very glad, indeed, the point was brought out to-day that the responsibility for these valuations did not rest with the local representatives. I can assure the House that in Limerick City we were blamed for a very considerable time for supporting it on the quiet if you like. I certainly never supported it. Neither did any member of the council I represent. It is the manager, city or county, who is responsible for listing certain properties for revision and that revision has taken place to the disadvantage of many.

It is mentioned in the Bill that valuations should not be increased unless improvements are carried out. I think that is only fair. If a business man, through lack of capital or other circumstances, is unable to carry out improvements to his house to bring it into line with his neighbour's house, I do not think it is fair to go to him and say: "Your neighbour's house is valued for so much. We must come in and give you a dart as well." Is it fair to go to a man and increase his valuation because his next-door neighbour has put in a new shop front, got the shop revalued and has sublet half the premises in flats thereby deriving a very big income?

It is very hard to get an answer to another matter about which people inquire very often. One is often asked on what basis valuations are made. You are told one time that it is on the letting value and another time you are told it is on the 1914 value, the 1921 value, or the present-day value. As far as I can see, there is no fixed basis on which the valuations are made. I think it is about time that a Bill was brought into this House to clarify the whole matter. If a man is going to improve his premises by spending £2,000 or £3,000 thereon, he should be told that he will be pounced upon two or three months afterwards and made pay a substantial increase in valuation and, as a result, pay the increased rates. Let it be understood from the word go that there is an increase, and that the increase will be a percentage increase on a sliding scale. To my mind, something of that nature would result in a number of people carrying out much needed improvements to their premises. They would improve the look of their street and give valuable employment. Any man who is prepared to put money back into his business is to be commended in many ways.

It is unfair that from time to time many people have been put under a shadow of suspicion because they make protests against the injustices imposed on them. I feel that every citizen has the right to air a grievance. It is only proper that we, as public representatives, should air these grievances in the Dáil and let the authorities who are responsible know the position and feelings of the public.

I listened attentively to the discussion for two hours last night. Many good points were made on both sides of the House. I hope this Bill will be accepted. If the Government reject it, let them give us in its place some better proposition on similar lines. If they do that, we will gladly join with them in remedying an injustice of long standing.

I should like to make a few observations on this question of valuations. Like most Deputies on both sides of the House, I am notentirely in agreement with the methods of valuers. I am not in agreement with this particular measure either. It is a measure of class legislation as it provides for one section of the community only.

I was somewhat surprised to hear my friend, Deputy Davin, express doubts as to whether it will apply to labourers' cottages. The Deputy knows as well as I do from reading the Bill that there is no provision in it for labourers' cottages or even artisans' dwellings in our towns and cities. They will not be considered under this particular Bill. I hope that the Government will, before long, introduce a comprehensive measure similar to the one they introduced in 1938 or 1939 and which eventually was dropped.

No businessman, farmer or any owner of property will contend that property in this State to-day is only of the same valuation as it was in the day of the Griffith valuation. That does not bear investigation and is not worth discussing. I have some experience in regard to the question of valuations. I want to disagree with my friend, the Mayor of Limerick, when he says it is the manager's function. That is not so. With the permission of the Chair, I will quote two documents showing the arrangements with regard to increasing valuations. They are official notices which must appear on the notice-board outside the courthouses and municipal offices throughout the country. Notice No. 1, Annual revision of rateable valuations: Decision on Appeals, is as follows:—

"Notice is hereby given that the Commissioner of Valuation has on the 2nd day of February, 1953, transmitted to me a list of his decisions on the appeals to him for the Borough of Drogheda. The appeals list is open for inspection at my office and the extracts therefrom may be taken during the usual office hours. All notices of appeals to the Circuit Court against the Commissioner's decision should be lodged with me on or before the 23rd February 1953."

That is due notice and it is followed by another:—

"Notice is hereby given:—

1. That the Commissioner of Valuation has, on this date, transmitted to me lists of the several tenements and hereditaments in this Borough with their respective valuations, and has shown in these lists the revision of the valuations which have been made by him during the past year.

2. That the said lists will remain open for inspection at my office, and the extracts therefrom may be taken between the hours of 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. for 21 days from the date hereof.

3. That any person aggrieved in respect of such valuation may within 28 days from the day hereof by post or otherwise deliver to me a notice in writing duly signed by him, the said person aggrieved, or by his known agent, setting forth the grounds of such grievance."

In these two official notices the procedure is set out with regard to valuations and there can be no deviation from it. The person responsible, in the first instance is the rate collector. He is bound by statute, first of all, to notify the town clerk, and, in the case of a rural community, the secretary to the county council who in turn notifies the Valuation Office. It, in due course, instructs one of its valuers to call and make an inspection. I listened this evening to Deputies complain about a valuer arriving in a town and of nobody knowing who he was and with no one to meet him. Personally, I think that is the proper procedure.

I myself built some property in the form of new houses. I knew nothing about the valuer's visit or of his inspection of the property until he delivered his report to the town clerk when, of course, I was fully informed of the amount of the valuations. I then had an opportunity, if I wished to avail of it, of appealing against his valuation. I felt, however, that I could not conscientiously object to the value that he had put on the property. For some reason or other, the yardstick employed for that purpose is that valuations are based on the letting value of the property.

I do not think anyone in business, of which I have some knowledge myself, will contend that, if a person improves his property, by additions to it or in some other way, he has not increased the letting value of it. What I find most fault with is the system that you find in operation in towns, such as the one I come from. I am sure the Mayor of Limerick finds the same thing in his city. It is this, that you see very substantial premises in which business has been carried on for a long number of years and in which the turnover must run into some thousands of pounds a year, and yet the valuation is about £14 a year. You get the other side of the picture when you see the valuations on artisans' dwellings. This is something that Deputy Davin should be interested in. In our town, we have carried out a number of housing schemes. Tenants are taken from slum dwellings, on which the valuation was 10/- or 15/-, and transferred to new houses with a valuation of £10.

I do not know what other public bodies have done in connection with valuations placed on houses provided by them, but we in Drogheda—the corporation—on behalf of the tenants, appealed to the courts and got the £10 valuation reduced to £8. Now, even on an £8 valuation, the tenants of our artisans' dwellings are, in my view making a very substantial contribution to the total over-all rate which at the moment is about 39/3 in the £. Taking a round figure, it means that, in many cases, an unemployed man is contributing as much as £12 a year to the rates. I do not know if the representatives of any other town or city have gone to the trouble of investigating minutely the contribution which the tenants of artisans' dwellings are making to the rates. I think if any of them have done so they will agree with me that, by and large, the tenants of artisans' dwellings and of small dwellings constitute the vast majority of the ratepayers in many of our towns.

I think that their contributions would represent 75 per cent. of the total rate collected. That is somethingpeople should ponder on, particularly when they are being asked to vote for a Bill of this kind. The Bill stinks of class legislation and, as a democrat, I certainly would not support it, not even if it were a Government measure.

I think the best thanks of the House are due to those who introduced this Bill. I say that, not because of what is in it, but because it gives an opportunity to Deputies to discuss what is a very vexed and serious problem. The position is bad enough in the country where we find the local rates increasing year after year, with no indication that the position is going to change for the benefit of the ratepayers.

You can stop that by stopping progress. If you want amenities, you must pay for them.

The fact, at any rate, is that the rates are being increased year after year, and that valuations are being increased. Deputies and the people generally, must admit that the maintenance of our local institutions is becoming a heavy burden on the ratepayers. I am not suggesting for a moment that the people on this side of the House are the only people who are concerned about that. I am sure that Deputies on the Government side have also been approached by their constituents about it, not in one county but in every county. The people are for ever asking when increases in the rates are going to stop. The Valuation Office disclaims any responsibility in connection with that, and says that, so far as the rates are concerned, it is the business of the local authorities. That is so, but why are valuations made at all? Is it not mainly for the purpose of collecting the rates?

In view of the amount of legislation passed through this House recently and the burden which the operation of it is going to throw on the rates, I honestly believe that the ratepayers cannot continue to maintain our local institutions. I have no hesitation in saying that this situation is, in large measure, due to the policy of successive Governments here. They, in aneffort to popularise themselves with the people, introduced and passed through this House an amount of legislation, and then put the burden on the local authorities of operating it. The different Governments that we have had, all did that.

It is grossly and manifestly unfair that any Government should enact legislation without making the necessary provision for the financing of it from the Central Fund. I do not think this Bill is going to improve the situation very much as long as the present formula with regard to valuations continues, namely, that the basis of the valuation shall be net letting value. While the formula is there, I do not think that even the valuation commissioners can do very much in the matter. It was pointed out to me on one occasion when I was a member of a deputation to them, that the valuation commissioners are there to implement the law. That is the law, that the basis of valuation shall be the net letting value, and until we alter that formula and substitute another—and I am not going to suggest for a moment that it is easy to substitute another; I recognise that difficulty, too—we will not improve the situation. It is inconceivable to me how it ever did form the basis of valuation at all. I cannot see why, if a private citizen wants to improve his house at his own expense, there is an immediate obligation on the Valuation Office to increase his valuation. I do not see the justice of it.

Reference was made as to who was responsible for this. Everybody knows that in the first instance it is the rate collector and everybody knows, too, that rate collectors are human beings. I do not think it was necessary to suggest a penalty on the rate collector for failing in his duty in this regard, because he knows quite well that the more the valuation increases the more poundage he collects. There is a good incentive there without any threat whatever.

I have always held that it is unfair, and indeed it is bad business, to put a valuation on a farmer's out-offices orbuildings, because it seems to me that to do that you might as well put a tax on his plough, on his mowing machine or on his harvester; you might as well put a tax on the ordinary implements of his farm as put a tax on his out-offices.

I do not think there can be justice done to the farming community on the question of rating until farm buildings are derated, not for a year, two years or even seven years, but entirely. Nobody here will deny that the present system as it operates is a curb on progress in spite of what Deputy Walsh says. People around the country are quite prepared to improve their homes and their out-houses but they are deterred by the fact that they would be increasing their own liability to the local authority by doing so. I think it was always held that one of the greatest curses of landlordism in Ireland was that if a farmer improved his holding the landlord's agent immediately came along and increased the rent and rates. I heard it described in my time as one of the greatest arguments against the landlord system. How can that system have altered after 30 years of native legislation when, if a farmer, a shopkeeper or a citizen in any other walk of life tries to improve the amenities of his home at his own expense, he leaves himself liable to a higher contribution to the local rates. It is high time that some Government did deal with this question, and that is why we should be thankful to the member who introduced this Bill.

Although this measure may have many shortcomings and may have some provisions with which I totally disagree, it does serve the purpose of focusing public attention and the attention of the Government on this very important question to see if something can be done to remedy a situation and a law which are definitely a handicap to progress here.

The question of valuation of local authority housing schemes was one of the points a deputation of which I was a member raised when we visited the Valuation Office. In the town of Castlerea the valuation of cottages erected last year or the year beforewas £8; at a rate of 35/- in the £ on an ordinary worker's cottage. Does that seem to Deputy Walsh or to any other Deputy a fair demand on a man whose wages often do not amount to £4 a week? On reflection, I think that the sensible thing for the Minister to do is to inform the House that he will examine this question thoroughly and bring in a comprehensive covering of the matters about which there is dissatisfaction. It has been suggested this is class legislation. That is ridiculous. Surely in this country there is no such thing as class. We are all one class.

Indeed, Deputy, there are more than that. I wish you were telling the truth.

There may be people who imagine they are of a different class.

There are two Irelands still.

There are not. I am afraid Deputy Hickey is very pessimistic. It is time, after 30 years of native Government, that it disappeared. In my view, at any rate—and it would not be bad for Deputy Hickey to adopt it in his own mind because it often can carry conviction—there is only one class and we all belong to it.

I would be delighted if that were the case.

But even if it is class legislation, I would say this for it, if it is going to remedy a disease that exists among that particular class it has something to recommend it; and perhaps if we can remedy the position in one class we might remedy it in the other classes as well. However, I do not agree that there are classes.

I admire your innocence.

Who are the other classes?

What class is Deputy Cogan in?

I am not in the same class as you,

I do not agree with the argument against this Bill put forward by the Minister that it would be unfair to the cottage dweller or the farmer to adopt this measure because a man of a certain class would be improving his position without making any further contribution to the local rates. Has not the man the other alternative; he need not improve his position, he need not spend any money and he will not make any contribution to the local rates? I do not think that is a sensible argument from the Minister. It is entirely optional to the man to improve his holding, but if he does it is he going to be victimised?

Deputy Cogan must be aware of at least one glaring injustice that occurred in this city, when he and I were members of a ratepayers' association. A gentleman from Deputy Walsh's constituency complained that premises which he had in Middle Abbey Street and which, before they were improved, had a valuation of £14, were given, after they were improved, a valuation of £300. In the light of that, and I assume the man was telling the truth——

This Bill will give you no relief.

I am not saying it would, I am not claiming anything like that; but I am claiming credit for the men who brought in the Bill to give the opportunity of hearing the views of Deputies on the matter. I hope something will be done to remedy this and to change the outmoded system of local taxation and valuation. Surely there must be room for alteration in legislation that is 101 years old, especially when it was enacted by an alien government? Or are we to be happy and contented and say that the British ran this country for 700 years in that way and that we will follow their methods?

Tradition dies a very hard death.

I must say to Deputy Finan, when he says that there is only one class, what we say in my part of the country: "You're a harmless man." That is the caption theywould give him, as they would not think he was serious in making that statement.

I agree with Deputy Davin when he refers to the Act of 1852 and says it is completely out of date. I say that is correct, especially as far as Dublin is concerned. In 1852 you could go as far as Dolphin's Barn Bridge on the south side and, on looking over the bridge, find cabbage fields there. On the north side you could go as far as Ballybough Bridge and find fine big fields. You could go as far as Finglas Bridge and there you would find fields again. Dublin certainly has grown a great deal since 1852, since the times of bows, bonnets and hoops, and it is time that something was done to alter this Act.

The danger I see about the present Bill, or any Bill is this. It should be made perfectly clear that if we are to interfere with the present basis of valuation, that is, the annual letting value, we should know clearly what new principle is to be substituted as a new basis. I think that is the proper approach to it. I have heard very little here as to what is suggested as a substitute or a new principle. No one spoke about that. I am not an expert by any means, but I feel that in the case of Dublin you must take into account always the question of increasing or decreasing the value of any property. If the premises is wholly reconstructed and set up for a different purpose, surely we must take notice of that. For example, it could happen around Mary Street or Little Denmark Street that a property would be reconstructed which was formerly a tenement. What is the value of that property to be now? It is right in the heart of the city and one would have to take notice of such a property reconstructed for a different purpose. You cannot get away from that problem.

I agree with Deputy Walsh that this Bill or any Bill is this. It should be and will not do an awful lot for the ordinary ratepayer. I know it is coming from a constituency where there was a great number of tenement houses and there still are a few and this Billmentions them, as it provides for a limitation of increases in the valuation of tenements. I hope that in the next five years there will be no tenement houses in Dublin. They were a scourge and the slum landlords were the scourge of the city. Every effort we can make in the Dublin Corporation we will make, to wipe out the tenement houses. I for one, with a great knowledge of the city, must say I would be glad to say "Amen" to the slum landlord. They are certainly not a credit to the city; where they came from I do not know, but certainly they are a disgrace. Anything the corporation can do to wipe them out will be done and then I say it will be good riddance.

What we really need is an equitable distribution of rates. Take, for example, the area of North Frederick Street, Gardiner's Row and Gardiner's Place, on the way to Croke Park. At one time there were reasonably big houses there—fine hotels like Fleming's Hotel and other such places which during the "Trouble" were well known to many a Deputy who was "on the run". That area is in my constituency now. The valuation there was very high. Now Dublin Corporation comes along and takes over some of those houses which went into bad repair. They have erected corporation flats right opposite the big houses, yet those people are still paying on a high valuation, as much as £52, £62 and £70 per year. They are certainly feeling the pinch.

Is this Gardiner's Row?

Gardiner's Place. Some of them are in the hands of trade unions now. Of course, they can well afford to pay the valuation.

A Deputy

It is the worker's money.

It is the worker's money, I agree. On the other hand, you have other properties such as small shops out in Dolphin's Barn direction where new housing schemes have been built up. Those shops have certainly increased a great deal in value. It is tough on the people in my constituency to have to pay the piper still, while thepeople on the far side of the city in neighbourhoods which have improved considerably and who are in business premises, benefit a great deal by the new housing schemes, though they still remain at the old valuation. I do not think that is equitable and it will be a step in the right direction if we can find some arrangement for an equitable distribution of rates, especially in the City of Dublin.

I feel that any Bill the Government may bring in will help where there is any reconstruction to improve a business in the hands of small business people; but, as was mentioned earlier in the debate, a big shopkeeper or big businessman or big factory can pass on any increase in rates to the consumers. That might not happen in all cases—sometimes there is a fixed price on the commodity or something of that kind and it may not be possible—but from what I know of the accountants in Dublin and elsewhere they are a very shrewd lot of men. They would be able to see that those for whom they work succeed in passing on any increase in rates or valuation to the consumer of the commodity that is manufactured by that concern. I certainly am satisfied that, on this Bill introduced by the Fine Gael Party, all of us here have been able to give our views and I think they have been put fairly and squarely. I am sure they must agree now that this Bill certainly is for the businessman and not for the ordinary ratepayer.

There should be an equal distribution of rates. I cannot emphasise that too strongly. We here in Dublin would like the Government to get down to the job of altering the 1852 Act and they should see to it that there is an equal distribution. People are suffering heavily because of the burden of rates and that is particularly true of my own constituency. I would suggest that the Government should try to make a solid effort to clean up the position. The 1852 Act should be altered to suit our times and that alteration should not be made halfheartedly. Certainly there are many Acts that need alteration but I think the 1852 Valuation Act should get priority. I would like to see theMalicious Injuries Code altered, but I would be out of order in dealing with that now. The 1852 Act is completely out of date as far as Dublin is concerned because Dublin has expanded beyond anything envisaged when that Act was introduced. There is urgent need in the City of Dublin for an equal distribution of the rates burden.

It was very lucky for the Fianna Fáil Party that they should find a big, fat, smelly red herring to drag across the trail of this debate in making the suggestion that there is class legislation in this Bill. Deputy Gallagher and others seem to think that classes still exist in this country. Certainly there are classes: there are the spivs and the chancers who find room in the Fianna Fáil Party——

That has nothing to do with this Bill and the Deputy should relate his remarks to the Bill.

——and the honest, straight people on this side of the House. Apparently Deputy Gallagher and the other Government speakers have not taken the trouble to study this Bill, since from the very outset they have been annoyed because of its introduction here by Fine Gael Deputies Sweetman, Morrissey and O'Higgins. In the past the Fianna Fáil Party has thrown Valuation Bills into the wastepaper-basket. They are annoyed now because this proposed legislation will bring about certain long-overdue reforms. I will quote just one sentence from column 303 of the Official Report, Volume 142, to indicate briefly what the general purpose of the Bill is. Speaking on the Bill, Deputy O'Higgins said:—

"First of all, it proposes that henceforth the valuation of no building, whether it be a dwelling-house, factory, a pigsty or a shop may be increased at the instance of the local authority or anyone else unless improvements or alterations have been carried out to it."

That should be fairly easy of interpretation by any Deputy who wishes to understand the Bill.

Let us go back to the history of this Bill. On the 8th November, 1952, that is less than 12 months ago, representations were made by a large section of traders to the Government asking for a revision of the valuation system owing to the heavy impost placed upon their businesses under the existing system. Let me quote the reply to that nation-wide campaign. On 21st October, 1953, at column 308 of Volume 142 of the Official Report, the text of a letter in relation to these representations is given:—

"The Ministers for Finance and Local Government were approached regarding the possibility of introducing legislation to ameliorate the lot of traders whose premises might be revalued to their pecuniary disadvantage because of the food hygiene regulations, and the Commissioner of Valuation was also consulted. It is regretted, however, that it is not considered feasible to amend the Valuation Acts in one particular respect so as to grant concessions for the cases in question."

That was the attitude of the Government on 8th November, 1952, in relation to a revision of valuation for business premises. It became obvious to the Fine Gael Party that a revision of the Valuation Act of 1852 was long overdue and they introduced this Private Members' Bill which is now the subject of debate. That Bill was printed on 3rd June, 1953, and it was then that the Fianna Fáil Party realised that they had adopted the wrong attitude in relation to this very vexed question. There was thereupon a change of heart on the part of the Government. They were forced by public opinion to make that change, even if they will not admit they were not forced by this Bill to alter their attitude towards the effect of the Valuation Act of 1852 in its application at the present time.

The Minister for Local Government then came forward to forestall the Private Members' Bill introduced last June, and on 7th August he announced that the Government proposed to introduce a Bill providing for some remissionof rates. Last November the Minister for Finance and himself expressed regret that they were not prepared to give any consideration to a proposition of that kind. Remember, the Taoiseach also realised the importance of the effect of the 1852 Act upon the community at the present time, and he decided to curry favour with the community, particularly with property owners and tenants of dwelling-houses. He announced that it had been decided in principle that a substantial remission of rates should be granted for a period of years on the valuation of new buildings and on the total increase in valuation as a result of premises having been improved and revalued. There was the Taoiseach rushing in to save the situation and wipe out the embarrassment that had been caused to the Fianna Fáil Party by the introduction of this Private Members' Bill.

Why was it not introduced during the three and a half glorious years?

Because you were so busy obstructing the work in this House.

If the Deputy will read the debate of the 8th March, 1950, he will find the answer to that and if he pays me the compliment of waiting until I speak, I will tell him.

Or March, 1953.

Deputy Cogan should not start to crow so soon. He is definitely under control now. We will be glad to hear from Deputy Cogan what his attitude is in this matter. Is he in favour of the proposals in this Bill? We in the Fine Gael Party have already indicated that we are in favour of a comprehensive measure which would include the items proposed in this Bill. We do not claim that the Bill is not capable of extension.

It certainly is.

We know it is and it is a matter for the Government to decide so far as comprehensive proposals are concerned. They must face up to their responsibility in thismatter if they are not prepared to accept the measures proposed in this Bill.

The Minister for Local Government indicated recently, in order to offset the embarrassment caused by this Bill, that it was proposed to give some remission of rates. Is it proposed to give that remission of rates at the expense of the farmers who pay rates in respect of agricultural land? We remember that he indicated to county councils a proposal which would mean an increase of rates on farmers' land of something like £350,000 in a full year. Is he proposing now to give a remission of rates at the expense of owners of agricultural land in respect of the supplementary grants?

Deputy MacCarthy spoke on this matter. Every word he said made a good case for this Bill and then he said he would vote against it. Other Deputies who put forward constructive arguments in relation to valuation made a case for this Bill. It is regrettable that we have not heard from a responsible member of the Government that the proposals contained in this Bill will be accepted, that they will be prepared to include these proposals in legislation. They can be assured by the sponsors of this Bill that they will have support for any legislation which will incorporate the proposals contained in this Private Members' Bill. Nobody will dispute that at present ownership of property is a liability rather than an advantage.

That is a new one. Try to take some of it from the owners and you will see whether it is a liability or not.

I am glad I am raising a stir in the Fianna Fáil back benches. So far as the Valuation Bill of 1852 is concerned, under the present system, ownership of property is a liability. Property owners are liable annually for payment of a tax called rates, for income-tax and general taxation.

And surtax.

Modern legislation imposes increased liabilities on property owners. It was stated in the debatethat the Health Bill will impose a further burden on property owners, on the owners of factories, business houses and on the tenants of dwelling-houses.

They are the people who made huge fortunes and should be within locked doors, according to some people.

Tenants of private dwellings?

People with Chrysler cars.

This is an example of the difficulties facing property owners at present. Legislation is passed and the local authority is required to place the burden on the community. In Dublin County Council the rates were increased by 4/- in the £ this year in respect of T.B. allowances. The same burden must be carried next year by the ratepayers in order to pay the allowances. In addition, they will probably be obliged to carry the burden of the Health Bill.

It will be a pleasure, not a burden.

We must wait to see whether the Health Bill was intended for the waste paper basket instead of the pious motives which have been expressed.

We cannot discuss the Health Bill on the Valuation Bill.

I am relating it to the fact that under the 1852 Valuation Bill which this Bill seeks to amend in certain respects an increase in rates will be caused by the Health Act or any other legislation in respect of which the ratepayers will be required to finance the proposals. The ratepayers at the present time are required to contribute to the provision of public amenities which, in a general way, they cannot or do not enjoy. The money is collected from them in the form of rates, based on valuation. They are paying this form of taxationfor certain amenities which can be enjoyed by everybody but themselves.

Deputy Rooney is making a case now for absentee landlords.

Mousetrap, keep quiet.

You got caught out with mousetraps.

We will hear Deputy Davern in a moment. We would like to know whether he is for or against this Bill. Is there anything in this Bill that he is prepared to oppose or, if he is prepared to accept the Bill, why does he not whisper in the ears of the Cabinet members a request to accept the Bill or to introduce new legislation which will embody these proposals?

There is no whispering in the Cabinet.

Not by the Deputy, I agree.

If the Government consider that they are capable of bringing in modern legislation in relation to this matter they should not delay in doing so. They are going to get cooperation from this side of the House and in fact they have got a headline so far as certain aspects of this problem are concerned. Here in this country particularly a revision is necessary, because if we compare the rates being paid in Dublin City here, exceeding 30/- in the £, with 14/- being paid in Belfast, we can see that there is something wrong either with the basis of our valuation here or with the level of the rates paid or the amenities which those rates are expected to finance. Let us remember that in Northern Ireland there is derating——

The Six Counties.

——but here in Dublin where the rate is 30/- in the £ rates are also payable in respect of agricultural land. They are not payable in respect of agricultural land in Northern Ireland but still the rates in Belfastonly amount to something like 14/- in the £. It should be possible to draw a proper comparison in order to see where the defect is here in this country and in our local authorities. Let us remember that when valuations are being applied at the present time certain standards are considered. As some Deputy mentioned, the measuring tape is used apart from the other factors which are taken into consideration when a valuation is being applied. Then when that valuation has been applied, if we take, for instance, a private dwelling-house or business premises, one or the other, and we examine the amount of the valuation decided upon and then compare that with a business premises or a private dwelling-house of ten or 20 years ago, built at that time, providing the same accommodation and the same amenities, we see that there is a very big difference in the valuation which applies to those premises although there is only a matter of ten or 20 years in the difference; and so far as private dwelling-houses and business premises are concerned it is probable that the materials at that time were better than the materials used now in the modern dwellings and still higher valuation is applied. The result is that after the period of remission has expired very high rates will be payable in respect of such premises, compared with similar premises providing similar accommodation.

Major de Valera

Do you want that changed?

I did not say that I wanted it changed. I am giving you examples.

Major de Valera

Because, you know, this Bill would keep that situation there permanently. You realise that?

I did not say whether it would or not.

Major de Valera

I know, but I am telling you.

As well as that, at the present time we have a situation where people are afraid to cause alterations to be made in theirpremises, or extensions, improvements or renovations, because they realise that if these improvements and alterations are made it is possible that the valuations will be increased and consequently they will be obliged to pay higher rates to the local authority concerned. That system as it operates is holding back progress as far as the improvement of buildings is concerned and the provision of better amenities in business premises.

This Bill proposes three reforms in what is set out in the existing Valuation Act of 1852. It may be argued that many more reforms are necessary, but it is considered on this side of the House that at least these three reforms should be carried out as soon as possible. If the members of the Government consider that other reforms are necessary it is up to them during this debate to point out these reforms in order that the Government in framing any new legislation which they propose to introduce can have those reforms included. This debate is affording a very valuable opportunity to the House and to the country which will enable the Deputies to point out the many defects existing at the present time in relation to rateable valuations. I regret that the Government have been adopting a negative attitude to this matter. I think the country expects, and certainly the owners of property would expect, a practical approach to this problem instead of destructive criticism, instead of an attitude of trying to belittle the proposals contained in this Bill. I believe it would be better for the Government to alter the attitude which they have adopted in this matter. It is only right to expect that we should adopt the same view as Deputy Norton on this Bill, and I am going to quote what he said in relation to this matter. He said:—

"I look upon the Bill simply as a device to get certain things done and to deal with hardships, the relief of which might appeal to members of any and every political Party in the country. The present law, or if not the law certainly the practice, in respect of valuation of premises, is outmoded."

Will the Deputy give the reference?

That reference is from column 311, Volume 142, Debate 21st October. I think that that remark of Deputy Norton——

Major de Valera

Did he say "device"?

Yes, he said "device." What is wrong with that?

Major de Valera

It is a bit rough on the Fine Gael Bill, is it not?

He pointed out to every member of this House——

I could not hear Deputy de Valera's last remark.

Major de Valera

I said that it was very rough on your Bill.

No, what is wrong with the word "device"?

Deputy Rooney on the Bill.

Has Deputy de Valera any better word to suggest for that? For instance, could we consult the dictionary on this matter? I think the dictionary will show that the word "device" there is all right and is acceptable, and Deputy de Valera, I am afraid, is trying to see in that word things that are not there.

Under the food and hygiene regulations many owners of business premises were obliged to carry out certain improvements, and if they did not carry out those improvements and alterations and enlargements they would be liable to be put out of business, so they had a choice of either remaining in business and having those alterations carried out——

Would Deputy Rooney move the Adjournment?

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m., until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 3rd November, 1953.
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