Deputy Cosgrave gave notice that he would raise on the motion for the Adjournment the subject matter of Question No. 58 on the Order Paper.
Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Temporary Engineers.
I wish to raise the subject matter of this question on the Order Paper for the purpose of impressing upon the Minister the effect of the circular letter E.L.7/52. This circular letter deals with a number of matters to many of which no objection has been taken, and although it applies to all local authorities the effect of paragraph 57 is confined almost entirely to Dublin Corporation and the corporation of the borough of Dún Laoghaire.
The position is that at the end of two years from the date of issue of the circular, which was in June of last year, temporary engineers who have completed a two years' period with the corporation are liable to have their services terminated. Normally local authorities have few persons in such positions, but as applied to Dublin Corporation the position is entirely different. As I understand it there are 84 engineers employed by the corporation. Thirty seven are permanent and 47 are temporary. Of the 47 temporary engineers 21 must leave the employment of the corporation on the 23rd June, 1954, and a further ten before the end of next year. These men are all engaged on what are described as major schemes—schemes dealing with housing construction and development, drainage and sewerage and water supply schemes. In the past when they applied for those temporary positions they did so on the basis that given satisfactory service in the particular position to which they were appointed, they could eventually look forward to a permanent position either with that local authority or some other similar position under other local authorities after appointment by the Local Appointments Commission. As the position stands a great number of temporary appointments are subsequently filled by permanent appointmentsthrough the Local Appointments Commission. The temporary engineers in the main deal with the major schemes to which I have referred. Some of these schemes are long term schemes dealing with the housing programme and so forth, and the position is that quite a number of these temporary engineers are married people with families and they are now obliged to decide whether they will seek alternative positions elsewhere or await, if the Minister so decides, an amendment of the particular article referred to, or alternatively wait on until next June or later in the case of some of them and seek other positions elsewhere. The circumstances in which this circular was issued which I have referred to earlier dealt with a number of matters, but the position which affects these engineers is that they realise that because of one particular case or probably certain individual cases there is a feeling that they may, if allowed to continue in a temporary position, ultimately have a claim to permanent appointment irrespective of any application being made by any of them to the Local Appointments Commission.
I think that if the Minister examines carefully the representations that have been made to him and if he inquires from the city manager or from the engineering department in the Dublin Corporation, and also, I think, in Dún Laoghaire—but there are not so many affected there—he will be informed of the circumstances in which these men were appointed, the conditions under which they accepted the particular appointment, recognising that although the positions notified were temporary that in the past whenever they were appointed to similar positions, provided they gave satisfactory and efficient service, they could look forward to permanent positions either with the particular local authority, in this case the Dublin Corporation, or accept an appointment from the Local Appointments Commissioners to other local authorities.
I note from the Minister's reply that he has transmitted the representations received from Cumann na nInnealtóiríand from the engineers concerned to the city manager and that he awaits his observations. My purpose in raising this matter to-night is to impress upon the Minister the urgency of the problem from the point of view of the persons concerned. I think it is true to say that they have given satisfactory service and that they are engaged on schemes which will provide work for engineers, for craftsmen, for skilled and unskilled personnel for a great number of years, and that if they are dismissed or if their services are terminated next June or before the end of the year it will mean waste and overlapping and delay in implementing those schemes. In the normal course, provided their work was satisfactory and the service rendered up to the requirements of the superior officers, those schemes they are engaged upon would continue under their direction. As this circular stands at the moment, if their services are terminated next year new staff will have to be brought in. It may be that an entirely new staff would not be required immediately because of the fact that 21 of them will fulfil the two-year period on the 23rd June and a further ten before the end of next year, but it is inevitable that in a big change-over of this sort there will be delay, a certain amount of waste, and a general upheaval in the arrangements which these various schemes contemplate, without taking into account at all the personal considerations of the persons involved. I would, therefore, urge on the Minister that he should amend the particular paragraph of this circular letter and that he should do so without delay in order to allay the anxieties of the engineers who have given and are giving efficient service to the Dublin Corporation.
I am not sure or clear as to what case the Deputy has been making —whether he has been urging me to withdraw the article referred to as far as it extends to engineers or whether it has been for the amendment of the regulation. The principal question at issue as far as I am concerned is, was there need for such a regulation at all? I would like to assure the Deputythat the issue of this particular regulation was not a matter that was decided hastily, and it was included in the general circular because it was felt over a period of years that some such regulation was necessary. I think the Deputy himself has made an excellent case against the employment by the Dublin Corporation, or any such body, of a staff of engineers numbering roughly, as he stated, 80—30 of whom were permanent and 47 of whom were temporary. The Deputy himself has made the case that much of the work on which these men were engaged was not of a temporary nature and, therefore, there was no reason why the number of temporaries should be so weighted. I understand that the corporation have recently submitted proposals to my Department for the appointment of, I think, 23 permanents. Of this number, we have been able to indicate our approval to the appointment of 14. The others will be examined later, and our decision will be conveyed to the corporation without undue delay. As the Deputy has stated, 21 engineers will be affected somewhere around the month of June. I realise, and I think the Deputies too, that this regulation will undoubtedly affect a place like Dublin City in a much more substantial way than it would a local body.
We have been in consultation with Cumann na nInnealtóirí. The officers of that organisation have had interviews with officials of my Department. I think we have conveyed to them that this regulation was not made as a result of any desire on our part to bring hardship on any individual or on any home. I think that the cumann itself appreciated and approved of what this regulation aimed at. I take it that that organisation is speaking largely for the individuals who will be affected. It is not a matter of their being opposed in any way in principle to the regulation in question. In fact, they approved rather than disapproved but they felt that the impact of this regulation will, perhaps, have some —as they put it—serious effects on certain individuals. I want to assure the Deputy that I think, from the experience we have had, that there is a need for having a regulation which willcover local bodies everywhere—and not the Dublin Corporation alone—so that, in the employment of temporary engineers or other technical officers, some time limit will be placed on such appointments. When this regulation comes into force, I admit that, to some extent, it will have the effect that the Deputy has described in the case of Dublin and, maybe, of Dún Laoghaire. I do not know whether places such as Cork City or Waterford or Limerick would be affected to the same extent.
These 21 engineers will not be affected until June next. The 14 vacancies will be advertised and filled by open competition, say, before the months of March or April.
Mr. A. Byrne
Why not promotion?
Deputy Byrne, by his interjection, has shown the need for a regulation such as this. We have in this country a system of competition in the filling of these posts but it is a common practice in local bodies that if an officer who is appointed in a temporary capacity is there for any space of time a campaign is immediately launched to make his appointment permanent. That kills the whole effect of the competitive basis that has prevailed here for many years.
At the moment, I do not see how you can amend this regulation to meet any certain set of circumstances that could arise out of its enforcement as far as the body which the Deputy has in mind is concerned. If you amend it, if you extend it, the problem will still have to be dealt with. If you amend it in so far as Dublin Corporation is concerned, then you will have to amend it in so far as the whole country is concerned. I do not think that the difference between two years, two and a half years or three years will meet the type of case that the Deputy and the organisation which speaks for these individuals have in mind. Anyhow, we have invited the cumann to make whatever suggestions they may think fit, for the alleviation of any hardships that might result from this regulation. We see the need for it. If we had not seen the need for it, it would not have been inserted inthe general circular. We know that its implementation at this particular point may have some results such as have been described by the Deputy. If my Department can do anything to meet that situation, if it arises, at the same time preserving what is aimed at in the circular and in the regulation, then it will be found that we will be entirely co-operative.
If the Minister could speed up the working of the Local Appointments Commission, that might alleviate some of the effects in so far as the commission's delays are concerned.
I think we will have ample time. No matter how slowly they move, we should have ample time to discuss with the organisation any outstanding problems that will be there after they have made theirrecommendations regarding the filling of these vacancies.
The other point is that the circular dealing with other local authorities is quite acceptable but that, in view of the very large number of temporary personnel in Dublin, its full effects here were probably not appreciated.
It was because of the enormity of the problem that we felt there was a need for it.
Are these 14 posts, which the Minister mentioned, additional ones?
Yes.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Thursday 5th November, 1953.