No, Sir. The Minister said that he was satisfied with the work that was proceeding in connection with the consolidation of local government law—simply the consolidation of the various Acts; and as the Minister mentioned himself that he is satisfied that such work is proceeding satisfactorily, I am simply saying that I am not satisfied that so many years have elapsed and still the position remains as it is. My words in that respect, of course, are not directed personally either against the Minister or the present Government, because this position has unfortunately been the same in all the years back. I am suggesting to the Minister the urgent necessity of having this work completed at the very earliest possible opportunity.
Members drew attention to the necessity for a true sense of co-operation between local authorities and the Department of Local Government. We all desire that happy position to obtain, but if we are to achieve that true sense of co-operation which is essential the Minister must understand that our desire in rural Ireland, whether we may be called bogmen or men coming in with sugáns is immaterial, is that the fewer circulars that are sent to local authorities in connection with various trivial matters the better it is for local government. Perhaps in the past local government may have had its weaknesses in the various localities. After all, there is no system perfect either in this country or elsewhere, but from my experience of members of all Parties in a certain county council I would say thatbecause of their interest in local authority matters and in the areas that they represent it is deplorable that these men are not able through a greater sense of freedom as the elected representatives on those various councils to give more than at present owing to the system in operation whereby so much is more or less ordered by a Department of State.
Mention has been made of housing throughout this whole debate. Perhaps we again will approach this problem from different angles. I cannot blame members of the Government Party if they say that in their particular areas they are satisfied that progress in housing is satisfactory. It is because we are speaking here on an Estimate closely related to the everyday life of the people in rural Ireland that we consider it essential to discuss the various matters on this Estimate as we ourselves see them. I noticed that the Minister, in introducing his Estimate, made no reference to the building of houses by local authorities under the direct labour system. He mentioned that recently he was satisfied that the figures tend to show that through competition from the various builders competing for various contracts, prices are inclined somewhat to be reduced. Competition will nearly always tend to do that, but I consider that it would have been only fair and just to the various local authorities who have put into operation a direct labour system to refer to that important angle in connection with housing. Some local authorities found it somewhat difficult to start off such a scheme. Some of us who have been connected with building activities in other spheres can understand quite clearly the advantage many a builder may have through the amount of materials he has which will do in connection with various building projects. Some local authorities when starting out on this important measure of direct labour naturally had to start as it were from scratch and had to provide the necessary materials; but I am convinced that while the building by direct labour of some of those schemes undoubtedly proved much superior in finish and also cheaper in price, a continuance of that system,because of the materials in hands when some jobs are finished, would enable the councils or local authorities quite clearly to show that their prices for the building of houses would also tend to be reduced. Let me say to the Minister that in my experience and in the experience of many members of local authorities houses built by direct labour are far superior to those built by contract. I am not blaming contractors.
Any of us who may have some connection with building knows that a builder will build according to specification laid down by the architect but no further, and if he complies with the specification then his job must be passed as O.K. We also know, however, that on many occasions engineers in local authority employment, when not satisfied that everything may be as good as they wish, may desire that extra materials be used in the building of houses under direct labour and also that if necessary more time be allocated to their completion. Who is going to gain more than the local authority itself? We all know from sad experience of seeing cottages around the country that were built long ago at a time when the system of contract was in operation, that it was certainly anything but satisfactory. On many occasions men had contracts for such cottages who knew nothing whatsoever about building but just depended on getting a few outside men to do the work for them. We must realise now that whatever about the overall cost of houses, the owners of such houses are the local authorities, and ultimately the people who are paying the rates can claim that because of their contribution to the building of those houses they are entitled to see that they are built in a proper workmanlike manner. I believe that direct labour, the system not even mentioned by the Minister, proved, as I know by comparison of figures myself, the one and only way of breaking a vicious ring around the 1948-49 period when contractors were quite prepared to divide between themselves the spoils in many areas where housing was essential. I know by statements issued by the Minister himself—he made it quite clear—that all thingsbeing more or less equal he definitely was in favour of the contract system.
It goes, perhaps, with his outlook on local government. Let me say to him: "It is a long road that has no turning." These houses will be judged yet as to the way they were built. Years will provide the time for judgment on them and on the houses built under our present system, a system reintroduced, more or less, by the present Minister, who deviated from the line and the example of a Corkman as Minister for Local Government, followed by a Deputy from Limerick. Perhaps it is because Ministers for Local Government in Southern Ireland are more in touch with the problem of securing proper housing that we can say the present system of giving contracts to contractors is one of the greatest weaknesses in the operation of local authorities under the present Minister.
The Minister mentioned the 1947 survey. Here, again, we may differ. He seemed quite satisfied with the accuracy of the 1947 survey. Let me say here and now that I disagree completly as to the accuracy of that survey. A certain member of the Minister's Party who happens to be a member of a local authority with which I am connected and other members of the Minister's Party and various other Parties realised that the survey, so far as we were concerned, was totally inadequate and unjust as regards the provision of houses for people who needed them. It would not be safe for us to assume at this stage that the survey was anything like correct.
Figures were given here regarding the number of houses in the course of erection and the number of men employed. I, naturally, disagree with Deputy Burke on this issue. If we take into consideration the number of houses in course of construction in August, 1950, and compare it with August, 1953, we will see that there were 3,286 fewer houses in the course of construction in August, 1953. An equally important factor is that there were 5,551 fewer employed in August, 1953, as against August, 1951.
In reply to a question in the House yesterday the Minister admitted thatin respect of rural areas in which some of us have a particular interest there were over 1,000 men fewer employed in September, 1953, as against 1951. How can we say we are satisfied with the progress of building operations in rural and city constituencies when the system under which we are now working permits each year fewer houses being constructed and fewer men being employed?
I know that the few points we may mention on this Estimate will get very little consideration from the Minister who considers that his way and his way alone is going to prevail. It does not matter. We are still determined to draw attention to some of these points and where credit is due we are neither afraid nor slow to give it. But where, in our opinion, constructive criticism is necessary, we will also offer that.
Deputies also spoke about the system in regard to housing grants, particularly with reference to reconstruction grants at the present time. The system in operation during the few years of the inter-Party Government in connection with reconstruction grants was admirable. It was intended to show the great importance of real local government. Unfortunately, after the change of Government, that system was altered. Applicants for reconstruction grants during the periods 1948-49-50 were able to call at the offices of the local authority and apply through the local authority for their grants. Unfortunately, we have this mad idea of centralisation and Dublin is regarded as being Ireland. We have this vicious idea of people in Dublin thinking that they and they alone have a say in this country. A system was introduced whereby grants would again have to be applied for through the Department of Local Government.
Why should the Minister or the Government decide to alter the system and give back to the Custom House a right which was exercised by the local authority and the individual who in our opinion counts for so much in rural Ireland? Why was the old system not allowed to operate—that system which was in operation during thetime of the inter-Party Government when people had the right to have their claims dealt with by the local authority? Instead, officials are sent down from the Custom House to every local authority office and they get all the files and take them back to the Custom House.
Let me say that I certainly sympathise with the officials in the Custom House who had to do their very utmost to unravel the terrible complications involved in trying to straighten out this problem in connection with grants. I do not blame in any way the officials who were placed in such an invidious position and who found themselves snowed under with extra work. I blame the Minister and, through him, the Government for reintroducing a system which reveals that they are not interested in giving even such small powers to the local authorities.
I was very pleased to hear so many Deputies, including members of the Government Party, draw attention to the present unsatisfactory system in regard to the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. As I said at the outset, I give credit particularly to members of the Government Party from Donegal who stated quite clearly that in their opinion things were not so good in connection with this important matter. I referred to this subject a long time ago and, therefore, I am not going to repeat myself at length. All I want to say is that the system in operation is not satisfactory. The man who is anxious to build his own home and who should be helped is not being given that help and cooperation which we, as members of local authorities, consider he should get. In union with the other members of the various Parties, I would ask the Minister to direct the attention of the managers in the various county council areas to the system. The system operates well in some areas as against areas, including Cork, where the would-be applicant suffers such grave disadvantages. In my opinion, the system was introduced to help these people and they should be helped.
I have had cause on many occasions to draw the attention of the local authority to the fact that the peoplewho are gaining the benefits under this particular Act are those who can very well afford to do without them whereas other people who are anxious for such benefits cannot avail of them. Ultimately the local authorities themselves are suffering by this because if people are denied these advantages they have no alternative but to apply for a local authority house.
Deputies also mentioned the question of the purchase of cottages and houses. Some members drew attention to the number of cottages—it is rural cottages I have in mind—that has been purchased in some counties and the very small percentage of the total number that has been purchased in other counties. It is quite obvious to some of us who have studied this even in a small way that nobody but a fool would apply to purchase some of these old cottages built 50 or 55 years ago. In fact, it is a mystery how some of them are standing up. I have openly advised the tenants of these cottages under no circumstances to purchase them. I realise that if the houses that are being built at the present time are put under a system of purchase, if the years of purchase and the annuities are made favourable, then it is undoubtedly up to the tenants to consider the matter, but neither the county council nor the Minister should expect the tenants of these very old cottages to purchase when the clause is there condemning these people, in the event of purchase, to be liable for the maintenance and repair of such houses, many of which are tumbling down.
The Minister may say that it is the duty of the local authority to put such cottages in repair before the final purchase form is signed. That is true but, like everybody else, even local authorities do not at all times carry out their duties. I have known many cases of tenants appealing against the local authority when the House was supposed to be completely repaired. I know from my own experience that these cottages were not properly repaired, but I have yet to hear of the case of the tenant winning his appeal. It seems always a case of the inspector from Dublin favouring the local authority or the engineer. He may suggestthat some minor or trivial matter should be attended to, but that in my opinion is not sufficient. As long as local authorities fail to put such houses in proper repair there is little use in their complaining about the cost of repairs, because the fault lies at their own doors. I have never been and never will be in favour of tenants purchasing cottages that were erected 50 years ago and over.
Mention has been made of the problem of rent. The rents being charged in rural areas are too high for some people to meet. Every member here who is connected with these areas realises the uncertainty of employment in many of these districts. Men who have no hope of getting a job with a farmer or with a local authority during certain periods of the year face nothing but unemployment. The Minister may say that the Government are giving a fair contribution towards building these houses. I am not going to take the credit for that away from him. The local authorities may say that the ratepayers are also contributing heavily, but what is lost sight of very often is that many of our hospitals and sanatoria are full at the present time with young people as well as old people from rural Ireland, people who are being condemned to ill-health owing to being denied the right of owning a decent home. The provision of homes is as important as anything else. Homes and hospitals are required—there must be a connection perhaps—but if the decent homes are there, then very often the hospital is not needed.
May I say as a member of a local authority that too often we are faced with the problem on these local councils that a majority of members fail to realise the grave problem which confronts them. Some are prepared to continue the system that has been in operation for so many years, the operation of a programme which we believe is out-moded.
There is one particular matter to which I wish to draw attention. Unfortunately I had occasion to clash with the present Minister here on a certain difficulty extending over a long period. I knew, of course, the Ministerwas not correct in his approach and notwithstanding the fact that the Minister most determinedly steered the same course on the motion for the adjournment of the House, is it not a strange thing that after two long years the Minister had to put his name to the paper giving sanction to the building of 26 houses in a little village in County Cork, the erection of which was held up for that lengthy period? Never once did I blame the officials concerned. Even now I will not do so because I am not so satisfied that the officials were at fault. Members of this House were called and the Minister unfortunately accepted advice which it took two years for him to find out was not correct. I am glad at this stage that the 26 houses in this village are being built for the purpose of seeing that 26 decent working-class families go into occupation of them.
While that may be so, I would like to refer to another matter of equal importance. Deputy Burke asserted that there was no hold-up in building or in obtaining sanction for building. I remember on a few occasions inquiring from the Department—and as far as I remember also through questions in the House—as to why sanction was being held up in connection with a scheme of houses in South Cork in places such as Ringnaskiddy. A request was sent up to the present Minister for Local Government asking for general sanction for this scheme. It was sent up, not this year but in February of 1952. Up to the beginning of this week, according to my information, the Minister has not yet given such sanction. I am aware that there were certain problems related to portion of the scheme, but there was no difficulty whatsoever as regards the greater part of it. It is not very creditable to say that we have to draw attention here to such an extraordinarily long delay in giving sanction to the South Cork Board of Health and the Cork County Council to build houses for these people.
There is another matter which might be attended to by the Minister. It is not something for which he is responsible, as it has been in operation for many years. I refer to reconstructionwork. I know a person is eligible for grants for re-roofing a house or putting additions to it. It would help us greatly in rural Ireland if the grant were made available to those who found it necessary to do general repairs. In many cases the roof and accommodation may be all right, but through the continuous effect of weather over the years, general repairs may be necessary. Those people find it difficult to provide the money for such work. If grants were made for general repairs—provided the inspectors were satisfied they were of a capital nature and of vital importance —it would help the people concerned. It would also help local authorities if such houses were put in proper repair.
In regard to water supplies, no matter how we manage, it is impossible to meet the demands of every local authority for general water supplies to villages. As a member of a local authority I realise that one of our greatest problems is that of providing water pumps in various localities, not just in villages, but where there are groups of houses. We find the cost of sinking wells and fitting pumps, to the extent of £300, makes our commitments very heavy. If this problem could be dealt with in such a way that the local authority could tackle it in a more determined manner, the provision of these amenities would make things more comfortable for people in rural areas. In the case of a village, the people are in a position to make themselves heard sooner than the people living in a few small cottages, or in areas more or less isolated. Attention to that matter would help us greatly in solving this problem.
Many speakers have referred to main and county roads. It is quite likely that my views may be considered as different from the views expressed by members of the Opposition as well as members in the Government Benches. No matter what Government may be in power and no matter what money they may be getting through the Local Loans Fund, on account of the various commitments in other Departments— health, and social welfare, in particular—it is not possible to meet the demands of every local authority infull, to put every road in proper condition.
One of the biggest offenders—and I am sorry to say it, but let my words be recorded—is none other than the Cork County Council itself. We all have been anxious to get as much as we can in Government grants. Consistently, year after year, officials have been asking for a certain amount of money to give the local people decent county roads. What have we found? Year after year, the recorded vote consistently shows opposition to the full estimate being passed, none other than a handful of Labour members voting for that full estimate. In fairness to everyone, and because I am a firm believer in local government, I say that many members of political Parties, and a few Independents, when thrown in, fail to realise their own personal responsibility towards the people who elect them. We want good county roads as well as good main roads, but as long as members are imbued with a system which should have been abandoned and abolished long ago, so long will the people in rural areas be justified in saying that their representatives are not attending to this important problem.
While I place the responsibility as far as I should on local members, I would suggest to the Minister that, though we all realise the excellent work being done on main roads, we would prefer to see the programme somewhat altered so that the county roads would be put in better condition.
The authorities concerned are giving us an excellent road between Dublin and Cork. Whether it is to bring us more quickly to Dublin or to get us out of Dublin more quickly I do not know. However, it is the county roads that form the biggest problem. A substantial grant should be given towards the improvement of county roads, and, what is very important, towards their maintenance also. If the Minister would increase the amount and allow a grant for the maintenance of county roads, and if he would place the responsibility on local authorities to provide an equal share, perhaps we could then force those members on the local authorities toface the problem and give the people in those areas the roads to which they are entitled.
Representatives on urban councils have undoubtedly a problem to solve, owing to the difficulty of striking anything additional on the rates for roads within their jurisdiction. However, it would be beneficial and helpful if some contribution could be made to such councils, which would help them to solve that problem in urban areas for the people they are trying to serve.
Even though many members of the Opposition have already spoken about the Local Authorities (Works) Act, it is of such vital importance that I, too, wish to draw attention to the failure of the present Administration in connection with that Act. People may say there has been too much talk about it here, but the difficulty is that we hear so much about it in rural Ireland. We hear complaints from people who themselves saw many advantages accruing from the operation of this important Act over a few years. We find that £1,750,000 was provided for these works in the 1950-51 Estimate, but unfortunately the figure has dropped to £400,000 in the 1953-54 Estimate. That in itself is a justification for our complaint and for our opposition to this particular Estimate. I move to report progress.