On the motion for the Adjournment Deputy Hickey gave notice that he will raise the subject matter of Questions Nos. 40 and 41 on the Order Paper for 3rd December.
Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Cork Milk Supplies.
In reply to a question put down by Deputy Desmond and myself last Thursday the Minister for Agriculture in the course of his reply said:—
"As regards the second part of the question, proposals which have been put forward by the Cork Milk Producers' Co-operative Society for undertaking pasteurisation of the city's milk supplies would involve granting sole rights of pasteurisation to the society and prohibiting the sale of unpasteurised milk in the city. As I understand that there would be considerable local opposition to these provisos, I am hopeful that the society will be able to proceed without them. There is every reason to believe that the demand for pasteurised milk will satisfactorily expand in Cork, as it has in a number of other urban centres, once a supply becomes available."
I should like to know from the Minister if he is aware of the statement made by the Medical Officer for Health in Cork City in his report for 1953, page 77, which is as follows:—
"Of some 1,660 tests yielding an approximate proportion of 4.4 per cent positive may be regarded as a fairly accurate index of the amount of tubercle infection in the local milk supply."
Is he also aware of the high count of bacteria found in the milk received at the Dairy Science Institute of University College, Cork, as mentioned on the same page of the Medical Officer for Health's report, as a result of a test carried out for the Department of Agriculture? Is he also aware that as the result of a dirt test, it was found that of 1,534 samples examined 249 were very clean, 726 clean, 424 fairly clean, 128 dirty, and seven very dirty?
The Minister is aware that in his reply to a question last week he stated that of 2,339 samples of milk tested, 253 failed the test. That is about 10 per cent., so that of the 10,000 gallons of milk consumed daily in Cork City 1,000 gallons are not up to the standard. The Minister cannot evade his responsibility in regard to this matter, and he should insist that the Cork Corporation will see that the milk supply of that city is pasteurised. He will remember that when he came into office I expressed the hope that he would take up the work of the previous Minister and carry on the efforts he was making to get the milk in Cork City pasteurised. I am aware that the Minister told some advisory body recently that he was going to insist that skim milk from the creameries should be pasteurised. If it is necessary to pasteurise skim milk so that we can preserve the health of animals, is it not even more necessary that milk supplied to the Cork people every day of the week should be pasteurised?
I do not want to go on elaborating this matter as the figures speak for themselves. I appeal to the Minister to exercise all the powers at his disposal to see that the people of Cork City will have a decent, clean milk supply, because as a result of tests of school-children in Cork City made by the Red Cross Society the number of children found positive was alarming, and people who are in a position tospeak about these things say that that was due to the class of milk supplied in Cork every day of the week. I hope the Minister will do all he possibly can to have the milk supplied to Cork City pasteurised.
I support the case put up by Deputy Hickey. This is a matter of vital importance and I am sure the Minister will realise that this has been going on far too long. Certainly the previous Minister for Agriculture did his utmost to try and deal with this problem. It is a big problem. It is a question of vested interests, as the milk producers for Cork City are holding the market for themselves and will not let anyone else into it. We are fully convinced that the suggestions they put up to the Minister would mean a "closed shop" as it were, as nobody could agree to them. That means that this whole problem is left where it has been for many years. Does not the Minister realise that that organisation is well represented on both sides of this House, both in the Minister's Party and in the Opposition? While this struggle is going on, the Minister's may find it hard to make these people realise their responsibilities. In Cork City young children, and indeed, the people as a whole, are placed in the position of having to consume milk which medical reports clearly show to be unfit for use.
A responsible body like the Cork Workers' Council have requested the Minister to take drastic action in regard to the matter and have made it clear that they are taking it up with the sanitary authorities in Cork. While these workers' representatives are doing their utmost and are anxious to co-operate with the milk producers, unfortunately the producers are not anxious to co-operate with them. As long as that position is allowed to continue we will not get a 100 per cent. supply of clean, decent milk for the people of Cork. Some of the milk coming into Cork is excellent, but it is quite true to say that some of it is anything but good, and the Minister will be doing a good day's work if he will tell these people that this has continued too long and that it must come to an end.
I have yet to learn that Deputy Hickey and Deputy Desmond are reflecting the views even of the citizens of Cork in regard to this matter.
They are not?
No. I should like to make that clear.
That is not true.
At a conference 12 months ago between the members of the corporation, corporation officials and the Milk Producers' Association certain decisions were arrived at. We all know that pasteurisation will not make dirty milk clean.
It would make it safe, anyway.
Doctors differ in regard to that just as in regard to other things. As a result of the conference which was held, a large number of milk producers in the vicinity of Cork went to a great deal of expense in putting in plant for the cooling of milk. They put in special milk-cooling plants that cost about £300 at least. The report for 1952 shows an enormous increase in cleanliness. The whole question of the Cork City milk supply would have been met long ago if the Department of Agriculture had extended the area, as they were requested to do. The recommendation for extension on behalf of the Cork Milk Board is lying in the Department for the last six years. It was sent there at the time when Deputy Smith was Minister for Agriculture and has been lying there ever since.
When you have milk pouring into Cork during certain winter months from creameries and the supply of that milk is not being governed at the source and there is no inspection at the source, you cannot help having a certain amount of unclean milk in the city. That period of shortage is the only period of the year in which unclean milk is supplied in the city.
That is not so.
We have a couple of Deputies coming up here representing half a dozen people and pretendingto speak on behalf of the citizens of Cork.
We got more votes than Deputy Corry. Do not forget that.
I had a row with you, too, and you lost your deposit.
May I ask that we discuss this serious matter in a calm atmosphere?
I am endeavouring to discuss it calmly.
Tell the truth.
I am telling the truth, but it is too much for a person like Deputy Desmond. Those people put in those plants by agreement with the Lord Mayor and members of the Cork Corporation and at their request. Are they now to scrap them in order that the Cork citizens might have something else? Are Cork citizens to be compelled to take pasteurised milk whether they want it or not and whether they like it or not? We heard a lot about the cost of living from Deputy Hickey and others. Are the poor of Cork to be compelled to pay at least 4d. per gallon more, in order to get the milk pasteurised for Deputy Hickey's taste? That is a question Deputy Hickey and the Workers' Council have to consider. These are rather stubborn facts. We saw a strike in Cork City a few months ago over milk, because people were not prepared to pay the price for it. Still we have this demand. If some people can afford to pay for it, we have no objection to their paying for it.
You are aware they were buying sour milk.
They were never asked to buy sour milk. The plants were put in for cooling milk in Cork City. That is being carried out. I have seen pasteurised milk sent out from the Dairy Science College in Cork, as compared with fresh milk, and the people refused it. I have seen it returned. Those are facts Deputy Hickey cannot go beyond. Every pint sold by the Dairy Science people, University College,Cork, is pasteurised milk. It was refused by the people for whom Deputy Hickey pretends to speak here. When vendors in Cork found themselves short a few gallons, they went up to the university and got pasteurised milk there, but when it was taken to the customers they would not accept it. Still we have Deputy Hickey asking to have the citizens of Cork compelled, whether they like it or not, to get this pasteurised milk and pay an extra 4d. per gallon for it, when the cost of living is—as Deputy Hickey has been "bawling" about day in and day out—so high at the the present time.
So far as I can glean information on this question of the unsatisfactory quality of the milk in Cork, I think it was brought to the notice of the Department in 1948 that there were some people who desired to have their milk pasteurised. A number of suppliers formed a co-operative society to pasteurise milk, and they got recognition in the Department. It was suggested to them to go ahead with the project. I understand there was unanimity amongst milk suppliers then in having the milk pasteurised, but some time later, in 1949, when this scheme was being proceeded with by the society or by the Cork suppliers who wanted it, a dispute arose amongst them. Some were in favour of having the co-operative society and having the milk pasteurised, while others objected. The group that favoured pasteurisation went ahead. They were looking for money. They tried the banks first of all, then the Industrial Credit Corporation, but could not get money to start. Later they went to the Agricultural Credit Corporation and were guaranteed a sum of money on condition that they put up a certain sum themselves. That was some time last year. I received deputations from the co-operative society, or that portion anxious to go ahead with pasteurisation, and I asked them if they were prepared to go ahead. They said they were, if they could get the money.
Recently, they made an agreement with the Bank of Ireland for a loan togo ahead, but at this time the objection to pasteurisation grew. A large number of suppliers of milk to Cork City objected, and as a result there was no hope of the society fulfilling the obligations which were being placed on them, if they were to get the sole right of pasteurisation in Cork City. I met them some time during the year and asked their intentions. I pointed out that if they were to get the concession they were looking for, a monopoly of pasteurisation, it would be necessary for them to carry out the suggestion made in 1949, that within a certain period of time they produce 10,000 gallons of pasteurised milk.
For a few months we heard nothing either from the Cork milk suppliers or the co-operative society. On the 3rd December, 1953, I sent the following letter to the secretary of the Cork Milk Producers' Co-operative Society, Limited:—
"With reference to your letter of 11th November, following the discussion between representatives of your society and officers of this Department and the Department of Health on 28th September, about the society's proposals for pasteurising milk supplies to Cork City, I am desired by the Minister for Agriculture to state that he has personally reviewed the whole matter very carefully in the light of the definite division of opinion which has arisen locally in regard to certain aspects of the project, viz., compulsion and the limitation of pasteurising rights to one group.
The Minister has come to the conclusion that the society's project, on the lines at present proposed, would be gravely hindered by serious local opposition (including opposition from a number of producers) and that the promoters would probably as a result suffer heavy losses. He, accordingly, regrets that he no longer finds it practicable to proceed on the lines originally conceived, and he would be glad if the society would examine the question of initiating the project without the introduction of compulsion or of sole rights to pasteurise, which are the points giving rise to contention locally. Ifthe society could go ahead accordingly, it seems to the Minister that the demand for pasteurised milk by consumers will expand satisfactorily once supply becomes available, while the very serious difficulties which it is now clear would arise under the plan as originally conceived, would be avoided."
That was so. The original idea was that 10,000 gallons would be supplied.
I could not give any society the sole right to pasteurise because of the disputes that had arisen in regard to the supply of milk to Cork City itself. If there was a withdrawal of milk so far as Cork City is concerned, the people there would be left without milk. If I were to compel the society to produce 10,000 gallons of pasteurised milk within a certain period, and if they failed to do so, then I would be under no further obligation to continue the monopoly that had been given to them. My suggestion in my letter to the secretary of the Cork Milk Producers' Co-operative Society, Limited, was why not go ahead and pasteurise the milk and if the demand in Cork City for pasteurised milk is such as Deputy Hickey has stated it to be then I am sure they will have no difficulty in selling it.
I think it would be unwise and unfair of me to give a monopoly to anybody and to place obligations on the society. A certain number of milk producers in Cork are anxious to instal pasteurisation plants. On the other hand, a number of milk producers—I am not sure whether, infact, the number is larger or smaller— are not prepared to have the milk pasteurised. This question can be solved very readily by the Cork people themselves. If they want pasteurised milk, then why not tell that to the people who are prepared to pasteurise it and let the pasteurisation plants go in? I do not think I would be justified (1) in giving sole rights to any group or society and (2) in placing an obligation on that society to do a certain thing within a certain specified period —an obligation which they might not be able to fulfil.
I might say, in passing, that I have been told that at a recent meeting of the corporation there were divided opinions amongst the elected representatives of Cork City. Some favoured the introduction of pasteurised milk in the city while others disagreed. Various arguments were put forward regarding pasteurised milk and unpasteurised milk; I will not go into these matters now. The position to-day is that if anybody in Cork wishes to sell pasteurised milk, there is no objection. University College, Cork, is selling pasteurised milk. I do not know whether or not the demand is sufficient to encourage them to expand the pasteurisation of milk but I know that they are offering it for sale. If the group that were interested in the pasteurisation of milk are anxious to pasteurise their milk and to offer it for sale in Cork, there is no objection.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10th December, 1953.