Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Feb 1954

Vol. 144 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vóta a 2—Tithe an Oireachtais.

Aire Airgeadais Gníomhathach (Proinsias Mac Aogáin)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £6,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1954, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Tithe an Oireachtais, lena n-áirítear Deontas-i-gCabhair.

'San Vóta seo is sé an tsuim bhreise iomlán atá de dhíth ná sé mhíle punt— cúig mhíle punt le haghaidh costaisí taistil na dTeachtaí (fo-mhír B) agus míle punt le haghaidh costaisí taistil Seanadóirí (fo-mhír D).

Is gá an fhoráil bhreise faoi fho-mhír B chun íoctha costaisí taistil breise de bharr na Dála bheith ina suí níos minicí ná mar a measadh. Bhí ochtó seisiún sna naoi mí tosaigh den bhlian airgeadais seo i gcomparáid le seachtó san tréimhse chéanna anuraidh. Bhí nócha seisiún agus céad agus ceithre seisiúin, faoi seach, ins na blianta míle naoi gcéad caoga dó, agus caoga trí.

Is í an phríomh-chúis le haghaidh an mhéaduithe i bhfo-mhír D ná gluaisteáin phríobháideacha a bheith in úsáid níos mó ag Seanadóirí chun freastal ar an Seanad.

Captain Cowan

I take it this Supplementary Estimate is to provide a sum of £5,000 to enable a sum of £40,000 to be paid during the present financial year in respect of the travelling expenses of Deputies. I should have hoped that the Minister would have given to the Dáil some specific details in regard to the expenditure of that sum. As a matter of fact, much as I would like to deal with it, I find I am hampered by not having the information.

Like Gaul, the Dáil is divided into three parts. We have the Ministers, the Parliamentary Secretaries, the Deputies who reside in Dublin, and the Deputies who do not reside in Dublin. As Deputies know, Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries are not entitled to any sum, at least, as I understand it, out of this £40,000. Deputies like myself who reside in Dublin are not paid any travelling expenses whatsoever and, with the exception of the parliamentary allowance that is made available for us, we receive no sum, good, bad or indifferent, from the Exchequer in regard to our membership of the Dáil. We are left, then, with a sum of £40,000 which should be explained in some detail, if even in the broadest detail, to the Dáil.

What I am anxious to know is: how much of that money for travelling expenses is paid in respect of attendance at the Dáil when the Dáil is sitting and how much is paid in respect of travelling to Dublin from constituencies when the Dáil is not sitting? Without that information I find it somewhat difficult to discuss the motion now brought before the House by the Minister.

There are charges on this particular sub-head in regard to travelling which perhaps might be saved and could be saved. I will instance one matter. If I have to communicate with any Minister or Parliamentary Secretary and do so by telephone or by letter, as I do and do successfully, it costs me a matter of 3d. for a stamp on the letter, and the telephone call is somewhat cheaper—I leave out of calculation the envelope and the stationery I use. If, however, instead of sending a letter or telephoning, I travel a distance of 100 miles to see the Minister, the cost is a great deal higher, and I want to know if that is justifiable. I want to know if, in fact, expenses are paid to Deputies for travelling to see a Minister when a letter or telephone message would do. I think the House would be interested in that matter and that the public would be interested, too.

When Dáil Éireann was established and when certain allowances were prescribed and provided by law there was then the conception of service by a Deputy or Senator as being part-time, voluntary service except, of course, in the case of Parliamentary Secretaries and Ministers who are whole-time servants of the community and in my view do a tremendous amount of responsible work for which they are very badly remunerated by the people. But the question of the Deputy is different. He accepts service in this House to look after his constituents, to deal with——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should confine himself to travelling expenses of Deputies and Senators.

Captain Cowan

That is what I am doing.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be travelling further than the Estimate.

Mr. Everett

He is certainly not being paid for it.

Captain Cowan

I thank Deputy Everett for the observation. I am certainly not being paid for it. The conception of service was that it was of a voluntary and part-time nature and the feeling is abroad—and I can only be corrected by a clear and specific statement from the Minister in regard to the amounts that are paid—that membership of the Dáil in some cases is now becoming a full-time, professional occupation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is clearly going beyond what this Estimate provides the money for. He must keep to the travelling expenses of Deputies and Senators.

Captain Cowan

I am doing my very best to keep to that.

An Ceann Comhairle

My appreciation of the Deputy's best is greater than that.

Captain Cowan

It will not look so very well that a matter of this importance is not going to be discussed because of some technical objection to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am concerned only with order and relevancy. I have no other consideration. This is a Supplementary Estimate and wider discussion cannot be entertained on this Estimate. If the Deputy wishes to raise that matter in a wider fashion, he should wait till the main Estimate comes before the House.

Captain Cowan

I am raising it now in regard to an additional £5,000 that is proposed to be paid. It is a serious matter as far as the people and the Dáil are concerned and, if I might submit, Sir, with respect, it is the type of matter on which a Deputy should not be rigidly confined.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is bound by Standing Orders just as much as any other Deputy.

Captain Cowan

I shall do my very best within the rules of order to deal with the matter. The Minister is asking for an additional £5,000 and has not indicated why he wants that money.

Mr. Aiken

He has.

Captain Cowan

The Minister has not indicated to whom that £5,000 will be paid.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies and Senators.

Captain Cowan

Yes. The Minister has not indicated whether that represents additional travelling expenses to Deputies and Senators when the Dáil or the Seanad is sitting or whether it represents additional expenses to Deputies or Senators who travel to Dublin to see Ministers when the Dáil or Seanad is not sitting. I think, with respect, that I am entitled to ask the Minister for a statement. I am perfectly certain he has all the details available.

If this additional £5,000 arises because Deputies travel to Dublin to see a Minister rather than spend 3d. on a stamp and write to him, then it seems to me that there is some matter that might be considered and that might be discussed. Looking at it in a broad general way, when the matter of our expenses is one for consideration by the people, the fullest information should be available not only to the Deputies but to the people whom the Deputies represent. I am endeavouring to get from the Minister the fullest information possible in regard to this matter, not for my own personal information, but for the information of the people of this country whom we represent in the Dáil. I would ask the Minister to make perfectly clear now the circumstances under which this additional money is available.

I had intended, if I had got some additional days, to put down a question to the Minister and to ask him, in respect of members of the Dáil and the Seanad, the actual amount of travelling expenses paid to them (1) while the Dáil or the Seanad, as the case may be, is sitting in order to enable them to attend the sittings, and (2) to deal with other aspects. It is desirable in the national interest that the fullest information in regard to this matter should be made available to the Dáil, and I ask the Minister to do it. I hoped, in a matter of this importance which affects ourselves, that the fullest information would be available to the people, and it was for the purpose of obtaining that very full information that I intervened at all in this matter. If you rule, a Cheann Comhairle, that I am not entitled to raise the matter now as to whether expenses should be paid to a Deputy for coming 200 miles to Dublin by car to deal with a matter that could be dealt with on a sheet of paper and the payment of 3d for a postage stamp——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy already said that three or four times.

Captain Cowan

I am asking if I can raise the matter now and develop it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will give no decision in advance. I am ruling that out: it does not arise on this instance.

Captain Cowan

If you rule that the Minister is not entitled to give me or the House——

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not say that the Minister is not entitled to give it. I am saying that the Deputy must deal with the matter before the House in the White Paper—that is, the money asked for in respect of travelling expenses for Deputies and Senators. That is what I say.

Captain Cowan

I am raising it as a supplementary. As far as this £5,000 is concerned I will object to its being voted by the Dáil if any part of it is to be spent on paying car hire or car expenses of a Deputy to travel to Dublin when the Dáil is not sitting to see a Minister or an official of his Department in regard to a matter that could properly be covered by a short letter bearing a 3d. stamp. I should hope that my intervention will enable this matter to be cleared up in the public interest and cleared up by the Deputies who may feel that they should avail of the travelling expenses arrangements to involve the State in substantial travelling expenses for matters that could be covered by a cheap telephone call or a very inexpensive stamp on a letter.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the sixth time the Deputy has said that. I must ask him now either to discontinue his statement or to bring in some new matter that will be relevant.

Captain Cowan

I am not an inventor. I cannot invent arguments where the matter is so clear, precise and limited. I am making it perfectly clear that I will object to that unless I receive from the Minister a very comprehensive statement in reply explaining how this additional expenditure arises and why it is necessary to ask this Dáil to give us this Supplementary Estimate of £5,000.

Mr. Hickey

Deputy Cowan speaks about travelling expenses. I take it that he is referring to transport expenses. I think a number of people feel that the Deputies have not alone transport expenses but also expenses for hotels, and so forth. When Deputy Cowan speaks about travelling expenses I should like everybody to understand that there is no such thing as travelling expenses and that there are only transport expenses—as far as I know, anyway.

Mr. Desmond

The discussion which we have just had has been very interesting. I may say that my hands are clean and that, therefore, I have no hesitation in giving my views on the matter. I know that Deputies coming from the country can also say the same of themselves. What a certain Deputy from Dublin says here on this matter does not worry us. There is no need to dwell on it. If I had anything to worry about then perhaps I would be slow about standing up here and speaking on this matter. I should like, however, to say to the Minister, through the Chair, that I treat in the fashion of contempt it deserves the statement we have just heard from the Deputy from Dublin City. It may be that he is disappointed that he is living in Dublin; it may be that he is disappointed that he had not the luck, long before now, to be elected for a country constituency.

Captain Cowan

I take it, a Cheann Comhairle, that all this is perfectly in order?

Mr. Desmond

As a country Deputy, I should like to make it clear that I come to Dublin only when I have to— then, and only then. When I find it necessary, I come to Dublin to attend to the duties which have been imposed on me; that amounts to the travelling which I do. I know that every Deputy can speak for himself. When the day comes that Deputy Cowan will come openly in front of the public, with some of the sections outside this House who are adopting this sinister attitude, then let Deputy Cowan say he is one of those for whom we have no respect.

Mr. Aiken

I think Deputy Cowan is trying to raise a very wide issue on a very narrow Supplementary Estimate. The Dáil has decided that members will get certain travelling expenses. Earlier in this financial year the Dáil voted a sum of £35,000 for the travelling expenses of Teachtaí and £5,500 for the travelling expenses of Seanadóirí. Those Estimates were prepared on the basis that the Dáil would meet this year about the same number of times as it met last year but, actually, in the first nine months of this financial year the Dáil met on 80 occasions as against 70 occasions in the first nine months of the previous year. That is the reason that we have to come to the Dáil and ask for an additional sum for the travelling expenses of Teachtaí from now to the end of the financial year. The Seanad expenses have gone up by £1,000—from £5,500 to £6,500.

Captain Cowan

Would the Minister repeat the figures, please?

Mr. Aiken

They are in the White Paper that the Deputy has. The Seanad travelling expenses were estimated to cost £5,500 and the Deputy will see from the Supplementary Estimate sheet that they are now estimated to cost £6,500, that is, an additional £1,000. Between the Dáil and the Seanad, the travelling expenses are estimated to cost £6,000 more than they were estimated to cost at the beginning of the year.

If Deputy Cowan wants to contest the whole basis of travelling expenses, as to whether Deputies down the country should have their travelling expenses by car or train met, he will have to raise it in some other fashion than by means of a debate on a Supplementary Estimate of this kind.

Captain Cowan

May I put a question to the Minister? I take it we are in Committee on Finance.

An Ceann Comhairle

I called on the Minister to conclude.

Captain Cowan

May I put a question to the Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. I will, allow the Deputy to ask a question.

Captain Cowan

Can the Minister help now by breaking up the £40,000 into two parts, one, the amount paid to Deputies and Senators to attend sittings of the Dáil and Seanad and the other the amount paid to Deputies and Senators to travel to Dublin when the Dáil and Seanad are not sitting? Can the Minister help me with that information?

Mr. Aiken

I have no such breakdown of the figures for the expenditure for this or any other year, but I have informed the House and the Deputy that the reason for the additional £5,000 for travelling expenses for Deputies is that the Dáil in the first nine months of this year met 80 times, as against 70 in the previous year. Therefore, in order to enable Deputies, to come to the Dáil on ten additional occasions we are providing an extra £5,000.

Captain Cowan

I will ask the Minister by question to break it down.

Supplementary Estimate put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.