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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1954

Vol. 146 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 60—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £348,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

The Estimates for my Department which I am now submitting to the Dáil are as prepared by my predecessor. They are three in number.

The first Estimate, that for the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, provides for the administration costs of the Department. It will be seen that the gross total of the Estimate for 1954-55 is less by £18,064 than the corresponding figure for 1953-54. This is more than accounted for by a reduction of £24,347 in the amount required for salaries and wages in 1954-55. This may not seem consistent with the printed Estimate where, in Part II, there is an increase of £53,673 shown against the salaries sub-head. At the bottom of the table in Part II there is, however, an amount of £78,020 in respect of increases in remuneration in 1953-54. When this amount is added to the amount in sub-head A for the year 1953-54 the increase of £53,673 in salaries and wages shown in the printed Estimate becomes a decrease of £24,347. This drop in expenditure on salaries and wages is due to a reduction in the number of staff employed in the Department by 144. This decrease arises from certain staffing economies resulting from centralisation of headquarters staffs in Áras Mhic Dhiarmada and the continuance of efforts, initiated when the Department was established, to secure reductions in the cost of administration by systematic reorganisation of major sections and the introduction of improved working methods and equipment. This over-all decrease in the number of staff has taken place even though the staffs of some sections have had to be increased, and are still being augmented, to cope with increased work arising from new legislation.

The only other figure in this Estimate which calls for comment is that for Appropriations-in-Aid which shows an increase of £124,476 in 1954-55 as compared with 1953-54. It will be seen from the analysis of the Appropriations-in-Aid figure given on page 379 of the Book of Estimates that this increase is accounted for by an increase of £124,700 in Item I of the Appropriations-in-Aid, which is the receipt from the Social Insurance Fund in respect of the cost of administering the various insurance services.

The amount which the fund will repay to the Vote in respect of the cost of the insurance services is considerably larger in the current year than it was in the previous year for the following reason:—The Social Welfare Act, 1952, gave title to unemployment benefit to persons not formerly so entitled such as persons employed in agricultural employment. This had the effect of increasing the work relating to employment benefit at employment exchanges and branch employment offices and reducing the work relating to unemployment assistance. The increased expenditure on insurance work at employment offices (balanced by a corresponding reduction in expenditure on assistance work) amounts to a large sum and, being repayable to the Vote by the Social Insurance Fund, accounts for most of the increase of £124,476 in the Appropriations-in-Aid figure.

The second Estimate with which I have to deal, that for Social Insurance, is for a sum of £2,798,000. As Deputies are aware, this payment represents the amount by which the income of the Social Insurance Fund was estimated to fall short of the expenditure of the fund in 1954-55. The payments for disability benefit, unemployment benefit, maternity allowance, contributory pensions, marriage grant, maternity grant, treatment benefit and administration were expected to reach a total of £7,947,000, including a small sum of £30,000 in respect of adjustments relating to the old insurance schemes. Income from contributions and interest were estimated to reach £5,183,000, leaving a deficit of £2,764,000, which is the figure shown in sub-head A. It will be seen that as compared with 1953-54 the amount to be provided in this Vote for 1954-55 shows a reduction of £753,482. This is mainly due to the reduction of £745,000 in the amount under sub-head A.

That the amount of this deficit is estimated to be less in 1954-55 than in 1953-54 by a sum of £745,000 is due to the fact that the cost of certain benefits is expected to be substantially lower in 1954-55 than in 1953-54, while the income of the fund from contributions and investments is expected to be higher. For example, unemployment benefit is estimated to cost £2,142,000 in 1954-55 as against £2,765,400 in 1953-54, a reduction in expenditure of £623,400.

As an offset to these reductions in expenditure the administration of the insurance services is expected to cost £1,067,200 in 1954-55 as against a sum of £900,000 which was provided for in the 1953-54 Estimate. This increase in the cost of administration is due to the increase in Civil Service salaries and to the transfer of work from assistance to insurance already referred to.

While I am dealing with the Social Insurance Vote I should, perhaps, mention a matter which has been dealt with since I took office.

It is a condition for unemployment benefit under the Social Welfare Act that at least 50 employment contributions have been paid or credited for the contribution year preceding the benefit year of claim. Contributions are credited for contribution weeks of proved unemployment and notified incapacity for work. Where the condition is satisfied unemployment benefit is payable at full rates. If the condition is not satisfied unemployment benefit may nevertheless be payable by reason of regulations made in January, 1953, which enable personal benefit and allowance in respect of an adult dependent to be paid at lower rates proportionate to the number of paid or credited contributions for the contribution year. The weekly allowance payable in respect of a child dependent is not affected.

The Social Welfare Act, 1952, came into full operation on the 5th January, 1953. Without special provision, persons insured under the former insurance schemes would not, until some time had elapsed, have been in a position to satisfy the contribution conditions for unemployment benefit under that Act. In order that such persons could, when unemployed during the transitional period, obtain unemployment benefit, special provisions were made, including the waiving of this condition until the beginning of a benefit year which would be governed by a complete contribution year under the 1952 Act. The first such benefit year for men began on the 7th June this year, and the governing contribution year was the 1953 contribution year from 5th January, 1953, to 3rd January, 1954.

Normally insured persons are in employment, sick or unemployed and the condition should not be difficult of fulfilment. On examination of the position, however, I found that some 40 to 50 per cent. of claimants would suffer reduction or loss of unemployment benefit by reason of this condition. It was not expected that so many would be affected. The crediting of contributions in respect of unemployment is a new feature in unemployment insurance and although the importance of acquiring credited contributions is brought to the notice of persons using local offices, it was felt that such persons had not appreciated the effect on future benefit of failure to furnish evidence of unemployment when not receiving unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance. For these reasons I considered that the immediate application of the condition would impose hardship in many cases and I therefore made regulations the effect of which is to continue until the end of the current benefit year the waiving of the condition for men who had been insured under the former insurance scheme.

The last Estimate with which I have to deal is that for Social Assistance. This shows a net decrease of £135,600 in 1954-55 as compared with the amount provided in the Estimate for 1953-54. As will be seen from the Book of Estimates, smaller amounts are being provided in 1954-55 than were provided in 1953-54 for old age pensions, unemployment assistance and widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions. The actual expenditure on these benefits in 1953-54 was, however, less than the amounts provided in the Estimate owing to the difficulty of making accurate estimates of expenditure in view of the changes brought about by the Social Welfare Act, 1952, and the Children's Allowances Act, 1952. The amounts being provided in 1954-55 for the services I have mentioned are, therefore, substantially greater than the actual expenditure on these services in 1953-54. The estimated expenditure on the Social Assistance Vote for 1954-55 is actually £442,400 more than the actual expenditure out of this Vote in 1953-54.

As the Minister has mentioned, this Estimate was prepared by his predecessor and we, therefore, cannot level criticism against him for anything that may be in it. There is one thing I just want to mention and that is with reference to the applicants for unemployment insurance who must have 50 stamps either contributed by or credited to them. I am, indeed, surprised to hear that the percentage of applicants is so high as 40 or 50 per cent. The estimate I got when I was Minister was very much lower than that. In fact, I was told that the number would probably be negligible. Indeed, you would expect that the number would be negligible, because if a person is either working or unemployed or sick, then he should qualify for his full unemployment benefit if it becomes due in the following year. But the Minister has evidently found that a very big number will be affected. In view of that, I think he was right in taking the step he did, because I gather from the Minister that it is due to negligence on the part of insured people that they did not have their insurance stamps credited to them as they might. It has given them a chance to be very careful in future. From that point of view, I think the Minister was right in giving a little more time to people to look after their own interests.

Now, it may be too soon—I suppose it is—to expect to be told by the new Government what we are going to get with regard to increased benefits in the social range of insurance or in social assistance. I just want to say that, looking through the local papers, I found that the present Minister posed a question to the people in Wexford during the election. When speaking in the Bull Ring, he asked them how could they expect an old age pensioner to live on 21/6 a week, or even 24/-, or how could they expect an unemployed man with a wife and three children to live on 50/-? He was a little bit inaccurate in speaking of 50/-. As a matter of fact, the Fianna Fáil Government had provided for a little bit better than that. Any man who is unemployed or sick, if he has a wife and three children, is allowed 50/- unemployment benefit and 6/6 children's allowance. Even so, the inaccuracy, I suppose, as things went in the election, was hardly to be compared with the ordinary inaccuracies we heard. We can take the 50/- as usual enough, anyway. However, the question was posed to the people in the Bull Ring and, I suppose, the people who were listening naturally came to the conclusion that the man who put that question when he got power in his own hands would answer the question by saying that it is not possible for an old age pensioner to live on 21/6, or for the recipient of sickness allowance or unemployment benefit to live on 50/-. Therefore, we may expect when the Labour Party comes back into power——

You said 21/6 was enough.

You spoke to the people about external assets and asked the people of Wexford at some meeting how they liked to have £49,000,000 or £56,000,000 leaving the country to be invested in England. The Deputy muddled the people of Wexford so much that they did not know what he was talking about, and he did not know himself. I only want to ask the Minister whether, in his reply, he will give an indication when this matter of increased benefits under social welfare will be considered. I do not want to embarrass him by saying that if I were there I would do it. I think it could not be done. I think we were spending as much as we could out of the national income on sickness and other benefits. That is another matter.

The Minister thought it could be done. He did give a clue as to how he thought it could be done when speaking in Gorey. Deputy O'Leary was also there on that occasion. I think that was the time Deputy O'Leary was talking about Tulyar. The Minister on that occasion said that the Government should have power to create and control credit. That is one way of doing it I admit, but I do not approve of it. If the Minister gave the impression to the people of Gorey that one way of doing it was to create and control credit, we had better hear a little more about it and see whether it could be done that way. I am not impugning the Minister's honesty. I think the Minister was honest in thinking this could be done. I am sure he was honest when speaking in Gorey in thinking that the money was there and that it was only a matter of the Government doing something about it by creating and controlling credit. I think he was honest when he spoke in Wexford when he said that it was impossible for an old age pensioner to live on 21/6 or for a sick person with a wife and three children to live on 50/-. I am not in any way impugning his honesty. I am not expecting an answer, but perhaps the Minister would give some indication when we can expect to have an answer from him and the Government as to when this matter will be dealt with.

There is one point to which I wish to direct the attention of the Minister. There is considerable concern and, in many cases, disappointment, with regard to the standards on which maternity benefits are being paid. I believe the matter rests more or less with the local authority.

I think it is a matter for the Department of Health.

At any rate, as far as I can learn, different authorities are accepting different standards as a qualification for the payment of these benefits with the result that in different counties different standards prevail.

If the Minister says it is a matter for the Department of Health, would not the Deputy wait until the Estimate for the Department of Health is under consideration?

I certainly bow to your ruling, but I understood the Minister in his statement to make some reference to that.

The Minister says it is a matter for the Department of Health.

I should like to call attention to some anomalies which exist, particularly in Limerick. I think the Minister will agree that they are predominant throughout the country. I refer to the inexcusable delay in paying people entitled to unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance or any benefit under the Social Welfare Act. I think the Minister will agree that in some cases people have to wait for five or eight weeks. I heard of a case recently in which there was a delay of three or four months. There is a continuing grievance in all these cases. If the Minister cannot expedite the payment of these benefits, then would he at least examine the possibility of providing more adequate funds and not the meagre amount paid out in public assistance? It is a great hardship for people who have been earning a certain wage that, due to no fault of theirs, they have to wait for some weeks to get benefits under the Social Welfare Act. It is very humiliating to have to turn round and not alone accept public assistance but in some cases assistance from the St. Vincent de Paul Society. We all agree that that society does excellent work in this country, but the days are over when the citizens should have to humiliate themselves. I would ask the Minister particularly to direct his attention towards expeditious payment.

As regards the matter to which Deputy MacCarthy referred, the Minister mentioned that it was a matter for the Minister for Health. There are two maternity grants—I think there is a maternity grant by the Minister for Health of £4 and there is a maternity grant of £2, which the present Minister deals with. I would urge him to make a public statement on the whole question of maternity benefits, jointly if possible with the Minister for Health, as there is grave misunderstanding throughout the country. I would also ask the Minister to bear in mind the hardship experienced by individuals who could be eligible for the maternity grant. Due to certain circumstances when the Act was framed, it was not envisaged, for instance, that a person who was idle one week and who in the week his child was born was working, could be turned away and might become a member of the public assistance class. It is very hard on a person to have to suffer a loss of that kind. The main thing to which I would draw the Minister's attention is the undue delay, particularly in Limerick.

I would draw the Minister's attention to a matter in which he himself has been interested for the last 12 months and which the South Cork Board of Assistance has been interested in and on which they had a deputation to the previous Minister. I know there were difficulties, but the position is difficult for recipients under the Special Employment Period Orders from March to September or October when benefits are denied to certain people in the rural areas. I know the Minister will recall the matter when I say there were certain women recipients of the benefit who last year or the year before were victims for the first time under the new system. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the position of those people. The position that obtained during the last 12 months was very unfair to them.

I understand there is a file in the Department dealing with a certain controversy with the South Cork Board of Public Assistance in connection with the application for payment by certain traders for footwear under the free footwear scheme. That is going on for a very long time. While the Department may not be in a position to allow the grant, from their side of it, they should consider the point that the members of the board and the county manager are in favour of meeting the applications and paying the amounts they believe the traders are in fairness entitled to receive. I would ask him to have this matter investigated and have fair treatment given to these people also.

Like the last speaker, Deputy O'Malley of Limerick, I think it would be very important to get some sort of statement—jointly with the Minister for Health or otherwise—as regards these maternity and other grants. It is amazing that there is such a large number of people in rural areas who are not aware of where they stand as regards these benefits. I do not know what the position is in this city or in Cork City. Some people believe they are entitled to grants and are not being treated fairly. It is quite likely that they are being treated properly but because they are not familiar with the circumstances prevailing in connection with the grants it is only right that the information be made available to those people in a concise and clear way.

Finally, I should say to the Minister, as a young Minister in his Department, he knows—and I know he knows—the obligations imposed on him in the office he holds. He knows that I also know his views regarding the old age pensioner, the widow, the orphan and the blind. It is vitally important for us never to lose sight of our obligations to these people, who are far more important than any political question or political theories inside or outside the House. I am not interested in what any speaker said during the general election campaign, whether in the Bull Ring in Wexford or in Patrick Street of Cork City, but I am interested, as every member of the Party here is interested, in the position of the old age pensioner, the widow, the orphan and, above all, the blind person. We expect the Minister to give his closest attention and to use his best endeavours in those matters. We believe he will do that. We are satisfied that these people will be placed in a somewhat better position than they have been in years past, while the present Minister holds this office.

I do not mind what Government was here in the past—I am not interested in that, but in these points regarding social welfare. It is vitally important that in social welfare activities we look at both angles. We must see what we can give as a State, what we must give to those who need so much from us at the latter end of their days. It is also vitally important that we see where we stand as regards the cost of living for those people. I expect the Minister, together with other members of the Cabinet, with a true sense of co-operation, to see that these sections of the community to whom the Department of Social Welfare means everything, are not lost sight of in the years to come or in the many years during which the Minister may hold the position he is in to-day.

It is amusing, when one comes here after a general election, to hear the ex-Minister for Social Welfare and for Health tell us what should be done.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and, 20 Deputies being present,

As I was saying, were it not that there was a change of Government, thousands of unemployed men would have had their assistance cut off. The new Minister for Social Welfare restored it on the 6th June last. That is not so very long ago.

Benefits under the national health insurance remain at only £2 but I might say here that the ex-Minister for Health and Social Welfare imposed a £4 maternity grant on the local authorities. That money had to be provided out of the pockets of the ratepayers. Representatives of seven county councils went on a deputation to Deputy Dr. Ryan while he was Minister for Health and Social Welfare. There were representatives of Cavan, Wexford, Kilkenny and three or four other county councils. The only information that Deputy Dr. Ryan gave those representatives was that the arrangments would be on a 50-50 basis. The result was that from the 1st January of this year Wexford county council had to make a provision of £2,000 to meet grants under the maternity scheme.

Deputy Dr. Ryan talks about what the present Minister, Deputy Corish, said and what I said in Wexford. Anything I said was true. I told the people that there would be a change of Government. At the expense of the State, Deputy Dr. Ryan sent letters to every person in Wexford informing them of what he intended to do to improve the health of the people.

We are discussing the Estimates of the Department of Social Welfare. We must confine ourselves to that.

Quite so.

The general election has been fought and it is over.

The Fianna Fáil Deputies raised this matter first. It is only right that I should answer them. It will generally be agreed that the country welcomes the change of Government. We look to a future for the old age pensioners, for the widows and for the orphans. There was no future for those people while Fianna Fáil were in office. We must not forget that when Deputy Dr. Ryan was Minister for Health and Social Welfare he stated in this House that 1/6 extra was sufficient to enable the old age pensioners to meet the increase that had taken place in the cost of living. Those are hard words but they are the words which the ex-Minister uttered in this House when he was asked questions about the plight of the old age pensioners as a result of the steep rise in the cost of living which took place shortly after Fianna Fáil took office in 1951. Now, however, Deputy Dr. Ryan is worrying about those people.

This Government is in earnest about improving the lot of our people and reducing the cost of living. Please God, when he shall have completed the five years of office which lie before this Government, the promises which this new Minister for Social Welfare and myself made in our constituency will be fulfilled—and Fianna Fáil will be forgotten. I believe that things can be improved in this country. I know that every Deputy sitting on the Government Benches has the confidence of his constituents. It is the people's voice that is speaking here to-day—not the voice of a minority Government such as we had here for the past few years. The sooner the Opposition realise the full facts of the situation and get down to the job of working, as an Opposition, to further the welfare of our people and of our country, the better, because national progress has for too long been held up by politics and by the one-Party system.

Our new Taoiseach, Deputy J.A. Costello, will fulfil the promises which were made to the people before the general election. When Fianna Fáil were in office, they were not thinking about the old age pensioners nor about the widows and the orphans. That has amply been proved by their actions during the three years they were in office. During that time, money could be got for the purchase of an expensive racehorse, for Constellations, and for other things but nothing could be found for the old people——

Why did you not sell the horse?

We will, if we can get the money that you gave for him.

Good man. You will get it. Try it. You will make a profit.

Order! Deputy O'Leary will now come to the Estimate.

I realise that it must be very difficult for Deputy Dr. Ryan to be in opposition now after having been in office for 20 years. However, for the sake of our people, I think Fianna Fáil should do their best in this House to promote the interests of the nation in every possible way and not, for instance, put down silly motions opposing their own Estimates.

Withdraw that statement. It is not true.

Deputy O'Leary must come immediately to a discussion of the Estimate for the Department of Social Welfare. He has not yet said a dozen words in regard to the Department of Social Welfare.

I am answering some of the statements which were made by members of the Opposition.

The Deputy has not said anything on the Department of Social Welfare. If he continues on that strain, I have only one remedy to secure relevance in this House and I shall apply that remedy.

If it is an offence that one should speak one's mind in this House and tell the Opposition what one thinks of them——

That would not be parliamentary.

An opportunity will be afforded the Deputy to do that in general terms later but, for the present, he must keep to the Estimate which is before the House.

I want to emphasise that it is hypocrisy on the part of Deputy Dr. Ryan to attack a Minister who has been in office only a few weeks. In my view, it is unfair and unjust.

Let him answer——

Deputy Dr. Ryan was in office for 20 years and he did nothing.

I did not call the present Minister a "Red," as you did. I did not attack him at all.

Deputy McGrath.

I had no intention of intervening in the debate on this Estimate until I heard Deputy O'Leary's speech.

And you were inspired.

Deputy O'Leary said that Fianna Fáil did nothing in the way of providing social services for our people. It is interesting to note that, for three years, Deputy O'Leary supported a Coalition Government which had promised to bring in a Social Welfare Bill and which did not do so until just before they went to the country seeking re-election, which they failed to secure.

That is more of it. Is that in order?

Fianna Fáil introduced unemployment assistance into this country. There was no unemployment assistance until Fianna Fáil came into power.

Because there was plenty of unemployment.

Because Fianna Fáil created unemployment. They had to do something.

I am talking about 1932.

Next, we shall be back to 1916.

I would remind Deputy McGrath that he should confine his remarks to the year 1953-54.

With due respect, I am replying to statements made by the Minister on the conduct of the Department. Fianna Fáil introduced widows' and orphans' pensions, children's allowances, free footwear and many other benefits of which the members of this House must be well aware. While the Coalition Government were in office, we waited for the Social Welfare Bill which they had promised the people and, as I said a moment ago, that Bill was not introduced until just before that Government had to go to the country. Fianna Fáil were not long back in office in 1951 when they increased the old age pensions by 2/6 and then by a further 1/6, making 4/- in all.

Will the Deputy now come to the Estimate which is before the House?

I take it that there is provision in this Estimate for old age pensions and children's allowances?

Not for the years to which the Deputy is referring.

Surely I must compare what it is intended to do with what has been done?

The Deputy will deal with the Estimate which is before the House.

It is very hard to have to listen to a man attacking the only people who put Social Welfare Acts through this Oireachtas, and the only people who were interested in improving the country. It is very hard to have to listen to such attacks by Deputy O'Leary whose only concern at one period, while I was in this House, was for people who had deserted from the Irish Army and joined the British Army.

And you were against it?

Certainly.

You were against it.

I certainly was.

The Deputy should keep to the Estimate.

I would like to ask one question. During the marches of the unemployed in Dublin Deputy Kyne, the Chairman of the Labour Party, said that all those unemployed people should get £3 per week. Is it the Minister's intention in the near future to increase the unemployed men's benefit or assistance to £3 per week? This was said very publicly to incite those men to continue their marches through the city and it undoubtedly had a big effect during the recent election.

There is one other matter on which I would like to support Deputy Desmond and that is the question of free footwear which was supplied to poor people in Cork a few years ago. Deputations have come to two Ministers about that where the traders supplied free footwear which was not as specified by the Department and was not official free footwear. As I understand the matter the fact was that the official free footwear was not available and the people supplied the other and have since been refused payment. One small trader had to go out of business. The South Cork Board of Assistance have repeatedly requested the Department to sanction the payment for this and the last letter they got recently was to the effect that the Minister would have no objection to the board paying for them, if they wished. The county manager says that that does not give him sanction and that he would be surcharged if he paid.

I should like to ask the Minister that if the board paid their half of it at any rate would the Minister give a guarantee that that official would not be surcharged? I think it is an injustice. It went on during the time of Fianna Fáil and I think during the period of office of the inter-Party Government but it is going on a good while and those people are without their money. Surely permission should be given at least to allow the board to pay its half. I strongly appeal to the Minister to consider that matter.

In wishing the Minister well in his new office, I should like to suggest that in the Social Welfare Act of 1952 he has an instrument for doing great good and I hope he will see that that instrument is used to the full. I should like to take this opportunity of asking the Minister for some information as to what savings are effected by the discontinuation of the payments from voluntary national health and whether he would consider the question of the restoration of those benefits?

The Minister is also aware of certain local government officials who are through their office debarred from making contributions to the widows' and orphans' pensions. I would ask him to consider that matter to see if it could be rectified. In taking up his new office I am sure the Minister will have an approach that no other Minister would have and I would ask him to consider the question of the abolition of the means test. We have heard complaints in regard to investigations of old age pensions. This morning I had a letter from an old lady in which she stated that she had been awarded a pension and mentioned the fact that she applied on the 14th February, 1954. I suggest that that is altogether too long a period for anybody to wait for an old age pension.

I would be inclined to accept the statement made by Deputy Dr. Ryan, the former Minister, with regard to the proposed reductions in unemployment benefit, that he did not understand what repercussions there would be if this section of the Act were to come into operation on the 7th June. I cannot say what he would have done in the same circumstances had he been returned as Minister for Social Welfare, but I only hope and trust he would have acted as I did when I assumed office and when I realised that some 11,000 or 12,000 men who were on unemployment benefit would be reduced substantially in relation to the amount they had been receiving before the 7th June.

I think I would join with Deputy Dr. Ryan in an admonition to those people who may be applying for unemployment benefit to be much more careful of their contributions and to seek the credits which they may get during the present year. By staying in bed too late in the morning, by being too careless to go down to sign or through being ill on one, two or a maximum of three days and not notifying this illness to the local exchange these people can reduce their credits and the consequence of it will be that their unemployment benefit will be reduced and may be cut of entirely unless they take greater care in regard to the matter.

One of the things that influenced me when I made that particular decision last week or the week before was the fact that there was a regulation, since revoked or repealed, which meant that a person who received less than 30/- for a job of work done during the week was not entitled to a stamp or a credit and that militated against him in endeavouring to have 52 credits during the year. Inasmuch as that regulation was in operation for approximately three months, I considered it to be unfair in respect of many in receipt of unemployment benefit.

I want to tell the House and Deputy Dr. Ryan that any sentiments I expressed when I spoke in the recent election with regard to old age pensioners and those in receipt of social welfare benefits are still my sentiments. I think it is known now to the House and the country that they represent the sentiments of the present Government as well.

The political pledge of the present Government in respect of these benefits is embodied in the statement made prior to the formation of the Government. It means an increase in old age, blind and widows' and orphans' pensions, an improvement in the Workmen's Compensation Acts, provision of retirement pensions for men at 65 and women at the age of 60 years, an increase in mortality benefits and an increase in maternity grants. I am sorry to see that the former Minister, Deputy Dr. Ryan, who happens to be a colleague of mine in County Wexford, should accept the defeatist attitude that it is not possible to make increases for such people as old age pensioners, blind people and those who are at the present time in receipt of widows' and orphans' pensions.

If I said in the Bull Ring in Wexford that I thought 21/6 was inadequate for old age pensioners on which to live I believed it and I still say the same thing at the present time. I think that every person across on the other side of the House will share those views, but I am not prepared to accept the defeatist attitude that it cannot be done, that an increase for these people is not possible. When we consider how many other things can be done at a cost to the State of substantial sums of money, it is only fair that this House should approve of any measures that might be taken to improve the lot of these people who cannot exist on the allowances that are given to them at the present. There is no point in boasting of what was done last year or the year before or ten years before that or when a cut was made in old age pensions. We must consider these cases on their merits. If we consider that 21/6 is not good enough for the old age pensioner the Government should move heaven and earth to try to see that increases are given. As far as this Government is concerned, improvements in respect of all these benefits will be made. I am not in a position nor do I think anybody would expect me to say at this stage exactly when those increases will be given or to what extent they will be given, but I want to say this, as Minister for Social Welfare, that as far as I am concerned, there will be no avoidable delay in making my proposals to the Government with regard to improvements for the particular categories to which I have referred.

I may have been misquoted by Deputy Dr. Ryan or misreported by the Press, but I do not ever remember saying that one of the methods by which we could get money to pay increased social welfare benefits would be if we took powers as a Government to create and control credit. If my memory serves me accurately every single one of my speeches in respect of the creation and control of credit was in respect of further capital development. I never implied or inferred that old age pensions, unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance would be, could be, or should be increased if we had the power to create and control the credit of this country.

Deputy O'Malley referred to delays in the payment of benefits. In that he may have been voicing the opinions of practically every Deputy of this House. We have all had experience, and I have as much experience as anybody, with regard to the delay in the payment of different types of benefits. I have not yet examined the whole position, but I know that many complaints have been made. Having regard to the number of claims that are examined and paid out in the Department from week to week I think that the delays occurring in payments form a very small percentage of the total payments made; but, as Deputy O'Malley has pointed out, even if there are 30,000 payments made it does not lessen the hardship on any particular person who is waiting two, three, four, five or six weeks for his or her particular payment. I have been presented with the schedule of the procedure or machinery with regard to these payments from the time the person has become ill until the time he or she receives payment. I propose to have that particular schedule and that particular machine examined with a view to seeing if there can be any short circuit. Deputy Desmond raised that point, too, and, as I say, if we were to have the usual debate on these particular Votes I am sure that practically every Deputy who would speak would have mentioned delays in the payment of benefits.

The matter of the footwear scheme in Cork has been referred to by Deputies Desmond and McGrath during this debate. That is the first I have heard about the difficulty, and I can only say, with respect to that scheme in Cork, that I will have it examined with a view to seeing if anything can be done.

I know that I am not entitled to talk about maternity grants. There are, it is true, two alternative grants, one of which is administered by the Department of Social Welfare and the other by the Department of Health. To receive one, one must qualify and have a certain number of stamps in respect of a particular period, but the maternity grant paid by the local authority is not on an insurance basis, and it is paid by the local authority having regard to the person's means. As far as I am aware, there has been issued by the Department of Health a regulation which sets out means in respect of different sizes of families and, as far as I know, the regulation is pretty uniform for the whole country; but, as I have pointed out before, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, it has nothing at all to do with the Department of Social Welfare.

I think that those are the main things which have been mentioned in this debate. In conclusion, I would like to thank the Deputies who wished me well in my new office, and to say that, as far as I am concerned, I will try to do my best for those people for whom I am responsible.

I was, unfortunately, unable to get in before the Minister rose to conclude. Might I be permitted to put a question to him?

The Deputy is entitled to put a question.

With regard to the suggestion to decentralise made before the Minister assumed office, I know that he has not had time to examine it, but I presume he will, and in his examination of it I would ask him to have regard not only to decentralisation of personnel but to decentralisation of authority, which I would suggest to him would be of great importance in abolishing the delays about which complaints are made at the present time—that is the making of decisions which have to be made at least in the bigger offices throughout the country. That is done at the present time in Dublin and is often the cause of complaint not only by the recipients of benefit but by the officials themselves in the larger offices throughout the country. That is the only point I would like to make.

In the examination which I referred to of the subject of the delay in payments that aspect of the matter certainly will be considered.

Before you put the question, could I say arising out of the Minister's reply that he referred to Deputy Dr. Ryan saying that it was not possible to increase these benefits of the Social Welfare Act? He said it was not possible in present circumstances, but qualified that by saying that it was not possible until the financial footing of the country became sounder, and that until such time as it had become in a stronger position we were not in a position to increase those benefits.

The Deputy is entitled to put a question but not to make a second speech at this stage.

I want to refer to some points mentioned by the Minister.

The Deputy can put the question to the Minister arising out of the Estimate but nothing else.

Does the Minister agree that the Fianna Fáil Party in the last election in their pamphlets and on the platforms stated that in their view the present allowances were meagre?

I did not listen to any Fianna Fáil speeches in the last election. I was too busy.

Does the Minister agree that statements he read in the paper by Fianna Fáil Ministers were to the effect that the Fianna Fáil Party considered that the present allowances under the Social Welfare Act were the bare minimum in their opinion?

Did you not say in Limerick that they would be reduced?

We cannot have a second debate on the Estimate. The Minister has been called upon to conclude.

I must congratulate Deputy Carew on his maiden speech.

Will the Deputy please restrain himself?

Vote put and agreed to.
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