I had not intended intervening in this debate but having listened to my friends from the South of Ireland, I was rapidly being driven to the conclusion that there was no problem for the Local Government Department except problems of the South of Ireland and the Midlands. Yet when I bought a paper this morning, I found staring me right in the face an item of news in regard to a problem with which I believe we shall be faced in Dublin almost immediately. In one of this morning's papers I saw the headline "Corporation loan fails to attract investors." I think it is initially important to ask the Minister for Local Government and his colleagues in the Cabinet to make their policy on housing quite plain, to make it plain to everybody in the city and in the country whether they intend to carry out the programme visualised in 1948, when the then Minister for Local Government stated that in Dublin he understood there were 30,000 dwellings required and that he intended to attack that problem on the basis of building up to a production of houses under the Housing of the Working Classes Act until we had reached an output of 3,000 houses per year. He said that he intended to keep the output going until this problem, not just of our capital city but the problem of the country as a whole, was solved once and for all.
I would ask the Minister when he is replying to the debate on this Estimate to make his position at least clear. I would further ask him to relieve the anxiety and the worries of a very large number of people who at present are applicants for loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. I would ask him to arrange at the earliest moment that a public statement be issued with respect to the rates of interest which will be payable by applicants under that Act in regard to moneys granted to them out of the current 4½ per cent. Dublin Corporation Loan. I have been informed that many applicants are delaying the submission of their applications for loans until they know definitely what the interest charge will be. In view of the fact that this loan bears a lower rate of interest than the last housing loan I would like to take it that there will be a reduction to the applicants but it is advisable that an official statement should be made and that applicants would be informed as to the date from which the new terms will apply.
I welcome the appointment of a new Minister for Local Government because I hope that, with a new Minister for Local Government and with, I hope, a Government following out the housing programme as announced in 1948, there will be a new deal in the housing position. When I say a new deal, I would like to recall to members of the House the position that has obtained over the last five or six years. At the end of the emergency, materials and skilled labour were short and no Government could be expected to get a housing drive under way immediately. However, the then Government made plans to improve the position and to speed up the building of houses under the Housing of the Working Classes Act. There was a slight increase in the years 1946-47 and 1947-48 and again in 1948-49. In 1949-50 the total output of houses reached a figure of 1,574, and in the year 1950-51 the output went to the highest figure for the number of houses ever produced in Dublin under the Housing of the Working Classes Act— 2,588. In 1951-52, instead of a continuation of that upward drive, there was a pause and for that year the output in Dublin was 1,982. That decline in one year might be accounted for by the difficulty of obtaining sites or other difficulties but did the output go up to the 1950-51 level the following year, 1952-53? No. It reached a figure of 2,200 during that year and then came a very significant and substantial decline; the figure for 1953-54 dropped well below 2,000.
These figures of houses built or houses reconditioned may not mean very much to somebody who has a home, may not mean very much to somebody who has a regular job, but they mean a great deal to the citizens of Dublin. We must realise that after 30 years of native government in our capital city there are still families of six in one room, in need of housing accommodation.
I was interested very much the other day when, in answer to a question by one of the Cork Deputies, the Parliamentary Secretary indicated that there were somewhere around 209 families of five living in one room in Cork. To-day in Dublin there are many, many families of six, such as families comprised of a father and mother and four children or even families comprised of four adults and two children, condemned to live in one room. Many of these rooms are hardly half a mile from this Chamber.
A particular feature in regard to housing output, in addition to the necessity of providing decent homes for our people, is the importance of such efforts in providing constructive employment.
In to-day's Irish Times, the following statement is quoted by an unnamed economist:—
"The investor is no longer keen to subscribe to any more corporation stock as they think the corporation has borrowed too much already."
Other experts indicated, according to the Irish Times, that the theory was growing that there should be a limit to public investment for such nonproductive enterprises. The building of houses for our people may not be productive from a purely financial point of view, but what more productive activity can we engage in than the provision of homes for our people in the cities and towns and villages? As I have said, the first aspect and the first effect of real effort to provide houses is that work is provided and work of a most constructive nature.
The following figures will give an indication of the effect of speeding up the housing drive. In 1951, the end of June, there were 3,206 houses either under construction or being reconditioned, and there were 3,028 men employed in that work, including work of construction and site development work. In 1952, the number of houses and flats under construction and being reconditioned, in the same month, was 2,899. The number of men employed was 3,599. But in 1953, when this decline took place, the corresponding number at the end of June for houses and flats under construction was 2,123 and for men employed 2,699, a falling graph. Now we are faced with the position that in the last week in May there were only 2,203 houses or flats under construction and the number of men employed on that work or on city development was only 2,329.
At the beginning of the century our city was described as having the worst slums in Europe. A lot of work has gone into removing that slur on our city. But we are still a long way from reaching our goal, and our goal should be that every man with a family should have a house of his own. In 1948 it was estimated that 30,000 dwellings were required and, after six years, it is now estimated that there are 20,000 dwellings required to solve the housing problem. Consequently I think it is necessary that an official statement on the matter should be issued. It is not, however, just sufficient to issue Government or ministerial statements, because it is too easy to say that we are able to build 3,000 houses yearly, but it is another thing doing it.
Not only, as Deputies have mentioned, have we difficulties with the Department of Local Government in regard to the rural areas but we have to face the same difficulties in the city, and I think that unless some definite effort is made—and the Minister for Local Government is the one on whom the responsibility must fall—to coordinate the work of this Department and the responsible local authorities, no matter what plans are made to speed up the provision of houses there will be no very successful result.
In the few years immediately ahead the problem in Dublin will be one of extreme difficulty. With the last extension of the city boundary by some 6,000 acres and the building since then we have reached the position that there is only one substantial area of virgin sites on which cottages can be built, and to continue at the proper rate in the provision of houses it is essential that plans be expedited for the construction of dwellings in the central city areas on every available vacant site and on every site that can be acquired. I would, therefore, suggest that in considering this question of central city development the Minister should take into account that our present limitation in regard to the height of flat dwellings means approximately a 33 per cent. reduction on the housing of any specified area. In other words, if an area is taken over for the purpose of development for houses o for building working-class flats, under the present regulation we immediately face a loss in density of some 33 per cent. and out of every 100 people in the area accommodation must be found, not just temporary accommodation, but accommodation on a long-term basis, for some 33 per cent. in some other place.
We have in the city many derelict sites. Plans have been made for some of them. In one particular area, Lower Mount Street, I think plans were submitted something like seven years ago. I think we did get approval for these plans about a month ago. The peculiar position we are in as between two sets of officials is that the plans have to go back and forward for one, two, three, four and five years and our people have still to live in some of the insanitary dens in which they are living.
In reply to a question by me the other day the Minister indicated one of the difficulties, that in the City of Dublin we are able to build 3,000 houses per year but, for some reason or other, we cannot get a housing architect. Surely Deputies on all sides of the House will agree that if we are to build homes for our people and if we are to consider what I think is essential, the question of building modern high flats, we at least require an architect in charge responsible to nobody but the city manager or elected representatives. We are offered an architect who will be an assistant to another architect and the architect profession, having some pride in their craft, pride in their profession, know that—and although we have been informed that three separate attempts were made to fill the post since 1948 it has not been found possible to get a person with the qualifications. I would seriously ask the Minister to look at that position.
It is necessary and advisable that the Minister and the Department immediately examine again the difficulties of acquisition, the difficulties of obtaining possession of ground for building, and consider again the question of reviewing their existing machinery. One of our troubles in Dublin—I think the City of Cork has it to a lesser extent—is that we are not a self-contained town, we are not dealing with problems arising just from the natural increase in the population. We are dealing with the problem in the City of Dublin of an increase in the beginning of this century of from 300,000 to 550,000. We are not dealing with the problem that we may expect in the course of natural increase in the population that there will be 100 or 200 more houses required after a number of years. Our position is a very fluid position. Unfortunately, the sufferers from that fluid position in many cases are people who have their roots, and the roots of their fathers and forefathers before them, in the city. Consequently, we think it is desirable that the question of housing in Dublin should be looked upon and dealt with as an emergency measure. Within five years, if we build 3,000 houses, we may have an increase in the population of a further 10,000 and we are nearly as badly off as we were before.
I would like to hear from the Minister that the policy adopted by his predecessor in regard to the provision of houses by direct labour units is put in the wastepaper basket. Of all the most reactionary decision, unfortunate decisions, this was one of the worst. Here at any particular time we may be faced, as we were faced before, with the possibility of putting some hundreds of men to work for a short term by utilising a direct labour unit set up in 1948 by the then Minister for Local Government, the late Deputy Murphy. During the last year or so, during the life of our Minister's predecessor, we had to go on more than one occasion and almost appeal to let men be put to work. This sounds most peculiar when we consider that yesterday in the debate Deputy Briscoe was telling us a lot about the same Minister's activities and special works. There were 400 men employed on special works—I hope they are kept in employment and I hope we increase the number—but it is little consolation to unemployed workers in this city if 400 men are placed in employment on special works and there is a reduction of around 1,000 men in the building of houses. That has happened in the last few months.
We have also to consider the indication that has been given that it is intended to amend the County Management Acts. I submit that the amendment should not be confined to county management but should include the Act governing the county boroughs and that the County Borough of Dublin be included in the proposed amendments. We have—contrary to what Deputy Corry said—a fairly good manager, who gets on reasonably well with the local representatives. He is prepared, within limits, to hear their views and to accept their advice on matters that come within his scope. We submit that the amendment of the Acts should not have the effect of taking the power from the manager and transferring it to the Department. If the powers of the managers are to be returned to the elected representatives—as I think it is proper to do—return the powers to the elected representatives and do not bring in an amendment which will substitute some clerical officer in the Department for the present manager. Our experience is that we can get some progress from the manager—some progress.
On this point I may be permitted to refer to an answer given by the Minister for Local Government. I was somewhat perturbed and amazed at the Department's treatment of a recommendation sent by the manager on the question of differential renting in October, 1952. The particular recommendation sent forward had been under consideration and discussion by elected representatives from August, 1950, until October, 1952.
According to the Minister's reply of the 16th June, the city manager indicated in his reply that the city council were fully informed of the financial implications of the proposed amendments before they made their recommendation. Surely, when the manager had made the recommendations and, in answer to a query, had made his statement, he was not again going to be asked to make further observations. However, we can take up that matter in another place, where I intend to raise it. I mentioned it specifically here because of the fact that the amendment of that scheme is urgently necessary in view of the inability of many of Dublin's families to meet the rents charged under the scheme.
It must be borne in mind that, increasingly over the years, workers and their families have been compelled, through no fault of their own, to accept accommodation three, four and five miles away from their work. I think the distance is now almost six miles out from the centre of the city. The extra expense they are burdened with, arising out of increased transport costs not only for themselves but for their families, is a serious addition to the cost of living of the average working-class family living in Ballyfermot, Finglas and other outlying districts which you might almost describe now as towns. Their outgoings are so heavy that it is almost impossible for them to meet the rents under the particular schemes. I need hardly say that the burden is particularly heavy in families where there are the father, mother and three, four or five young children to be catered for and where there is no other financial support coming into the house except the father's earnings.
I know that the Minister is going to be a very busy man, but, on the question of the general housing position, I would ask him to have a word with his colleague, the Minister for Education, and with the Board of Works with a view to seeing what can be done about the deplorable position of primary schools. This morning I received a report that, at its next meeting, the corporation will be asked to approve of the allocation of some 14 acres of land at Finglas to the education authorities. As Deputy Burke can testify, houses are being built in Finglas now for almost the past three years. There are hundreds of children there, and if these children are to attend school at all they must travel into the centre of the city, some five miles away from their homes. That has been the position in practically every case where the corporation—with Government assistance, of course—has launched substantial housing schemes. Schools are not provided for two, three or, maybe, four years after the completion of the schemes——
