Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1954

Vol. 146 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Fisheries (Resumed).

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture (Mr. O. Flanagan):

When I reported progress on Friday last, I had dealt with sub-head E (5)— International Fisheries Convention— and had made an observation on sub-head F (1)—Grants to Boards of Conservators and Local Authorities—and had gone on to deal with some of the activities of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. I had pointed out that this board distributes fish in five centres—Dublin, Cork, Killybegs, Dingle and Galway— and was dealing with the question of the inshore boats which had been handicapped in the past because, owing to weather conditions, they cannot fish regularly and keep up supplies. To meet this difficulty, the board has brought into operation three deep-sea fishing boats and they intend to build in the near future two 80-feet motor fishing vessels. The engines have already been purchased and plans for construction are well advanced.

The addition to the fishing fleet of increasing numbers of vessels which can spend a few days at a time fishing away from port has given rise to serious difficulties regarding supplies of ice, without which the catch cannot be landed in satisfactory condition. To meet this growing demand, the board proposes to erect two ice making plants, each with a capacity of about 50 tones a week, from which ice can be supplied to ports where fish is landed, even in relatively small quantities, and kept available in ice stores for use as required.

The board has brought into successful operation a pilot fish meal plant at Killybegs and its immediate plans include the erection of a further full-scale fish meal plant at a cost of £12,000. The operation of such production plants to deal with occasional surplus catches and to provide a market for coarse varieties of fish not suitable for the table is well recognised as an essential adjunct to a thriving fishing industry. There is considerable scope for development in this direction, not only by implementation of the plans in mind by the board, but also through the initiative of private enterprise.

As regards inland fisheries, the output of salmon and trout in 1953 was of the same order as that for 1952, both being somewhat below average. The runs of large spring fish were generally disappointing, but this was compensated for, to some extent, by fairly satisfactory grilse runs in most areas. The number of salmon taken by rod and line was greater than in 1952, but the total weight was somewhat less. This result may be attributed to the reduced captures of large spring fish in the early salmon rivers. The rod catch of sea trout showed an improvement of 10 per cent. on the previous year's figures. The total exports of salmon in 1953 were valued at £666,000 as compared with £638,000 in 1952.

Climatic conditions during the autumn and early winter of 1953 favoured the operation of stripping stations for the artificial propagation of salmon and trout. Although spawning was somewhat later than in previous years, close on 500,000 salmon ova were distributed to applicants, chiefly angling associations. The home output of brown trout ova was supplemented by 350,000 imported ova and a total of 1,200,000 was available for distribution.

Provision for Grants-in-Aid to the Inland Fishery Trust stands at £10,000, an increase of £2,240 over that provided last year. This body has made great strides in developing the fisheries which have come under its control and I am glad to say that, in its work, it has received full co-operation and enthusiastic support from anglers' clubs throughout the country. The bulk of the fisheries which have come to the trust are vested in the E.S.B. and the Land Commission, without whose co-operation the progress so far achieved would not have been possible. It is gratifying to mention that four fisheries suitable for development have been donated to the trust by private owners, whose public spirited action in this matter must be gratefully acknowledged.

To sum up the position, the total amount which it is desired to provide from public funds for the purpose of the fisheries administration in the current year comes to £295,320. The gross expenditure provided for in the Estimates now presented to the House comes to £145,320 and the advances for capital purposes proposed to be sought from the Central Fund amount to, as already stated, £150,000. The receipts or Appropriations-in-Aid expected to come to hand in the Fisheries Vote amount to £37,720, leaving the no expenditure envisaged on fisheries services at £257,600.

Deputies will appreciate that I am quite new to this office and cannot be expected to display the same results of experience as my predecessor has done in some respects, but I can assure the House that I am willing to receive and note carefully and sympathetically any observations or recommendations Deputies on both sides may have to make in their efforts to improve the fishing industry.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin:

Ní gá aon fhaitíos a bheith ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte i dtaobh ceal eolais a bheith aige ar chúrsaí iascaigh. Fiú amháin dá mbéadh sé in oifig níos mó ná mí amháin, ní dóigh liom go gcuirfeadh aon duine ar an dtaobh seo de Tigh i sáinn é agus níl sé de rún agamsa é sin a dhéanamh inniu. B'fhearr liom ibhfad, dá bhféadfainn é, an Rúnaí Parlaiminte a chur ar an eolas i dtaobh rudaí a thárla fé mo bhráid féin. B'fhéidir go bhféadfainn roint comhairle a thabhairt dó de bhárr an tréimhse a chaith mé féin fé na dualgaisí chéanna. Ár ndóigh, tá cunntas iomlán léite amach ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte, an dul chun cinn atá le tuairisciú aige fé beagnach chuile rud. Caithfidh sé féin, mar a déanaim féin, an creidiúnt a thabhairt don Bhord Iascaigh Mhara de bhárr cuid mhaith den dul chun cinn sin, go mór mhór chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé le h-iascach fairrge. Tá foireann mhaith Stát-Sheirbhísigh sa Roinn freisin agus dualgas díreach orthu sin i dtaobh cúrsaí iascaigh intíre—agus is maith ann é. Is maith cleachtach agus stuamdha ar an obair iad agus a shliocht ar sa chunntas atá léite amach ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte.

Is iontach go deo an spéis atá dá chur i gcúrsaí iascaigh ó ceannaíodh na trí báid atá fé stiúrú díreach an Bhoird Iascaigh Mhara. Ár ndóigh, roimhe sin bhíodh na díoltóirí, na hiascairí agus dreamanna eile a bhfuil lámh istigh aca i tionscal an iascaigh, ag cur anuas go minic ar an gComhlachas Iascaigh Mhara—an tainm a bhí ortha an t-am sin roimh Acht 1952 Ó tháinig an réim nua faoin Acht, cuireadh dhá dhream ar bun— an Bord Iascaigh Mhara, an dream a bhfuil an chomhacht feidhmiúcháin aca; agus an Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara, an dream a bhfuil dualgas comhairlíoch ortha. Níl ar an gComhlachas ach daoine a bhfuil lámh istigh aca i gné éigin den iascach, bíodh siad in a mion-díoltóirí nó mór-díoltóirí nó ag sailiú éisc nó in a n-iascairí. Tá cead aca bheith sa Chomhlachas sin nó tá cead ag chuile dream a bhaineas leis an iascaireacht ionadaí a bheith aca ar choiste an Chomhlachais. Bíonn siad san ag clamhsán i ngeall ar dhaoine a bheith ar an mBord nach slí maireachtála acu an iascaireacht nó aon chuid den iascaireacht.

'Sé mo thuairim é—agus 'sé tuairim go leor daoine eile, go mór mhór ar imeallbhord an Iarthair—gur fearr mar bhord dream ar bith nach bhfuil an iascaireacht nó díol an éisc mar shlí bheatha aca ná daoine a bheadh ag cur cis as an lathaigh dóibh fhéin. Is iomdha sin caint a chuala mé féin, ó na hiascairí bochta san Iarthar, chomh dona is a roinn na díoltóirí céanna leo sul a raibh aon Chomhlachas ann. Anois ós rud é go bhfuil comhthrom na Féinne dá dhéanamh ar na hiascairí, go mór mhór na hiascairí bochta nach bhfuil i ngar do Bhaile Átha Cliath tá na díoltóirí beagnach ar fad anuas ar an Stát. Bíonn siad ag cáineadh Roinn an Iascaigh agus an Rialtais, agus bíonn siad ag iarraidh cur i gcéill go bhfuil "nationalisation" ar bun ar an iascaireacht.

Bhí se de phribhléid agamsa bheith ar an gcéad cruinniú den Chomhlachas nua agus mhínigh mé ann an scéim a bhí leagtha amach agam chun an tiasc a dháileadh ar fud na tíre níos éifeachtúla ná mar a bhí an scéal go dtí sin. Ón lá sin anuas thug mé fé deara, sa pháipéar sin atá á chur amach ag an gComhlachas, go rabh siad im aghaidh agus go rabh siad in aghaidh an Bhoird Iascaigh Mhara a chuireadh ar bun. Cuireadh mo chaint isteach sa bpáipéar agus in ionad an focal "rationalisation" a dúirt mé, chuireadar "nationalisation" isteach. Chuireadar cogar i gcluais go leor daoine mór-le-rá sa tír go bhfuil chuile chomhacht dá thabhairt anonn ag an Stáit maidir leis an iascach agus go mór mhór an iascach mhara. Tá páipéar annso agam go bhfuil scéal tugtha síos ar chaint a rinne Easbog sa Deisceart. Tá me lánchinnte nach raibh fhios ag an Easbog so fén scéal—gidh go raibh sé ag caint chomh fírinneach agus a d'fhéad sé—ach go díreach mar cuireadh isteach in a chluais é. Do cuireadh ar a n-eolas ceart é i leith na cainte a chur sé dhe, ach ní fhaca mé aon scéal ar an bpáipéar sin ag bréagnú na cainnte.

Tá me ag caint mar seo leis an Rúnaí Parlaiminte a chur ar a aire in aghaidh na daoine a mbíonn sé de ghaisce acu i gcomhnaí go bhfuil chuile saghas eolais acu ar an iascaireacht. Pé brigh faoi gairme agus faoi ceárdanna eile, 'sé mo thuairm fhéin gur fearr i bhfad daoine nach bhfuil an t-iascaireacht mar slí bheatha aca a chur ag feidhmiú na gcumhacht atá rithte san Act 1952, agus ina theannta sin dream comhairleach ar nós an Chomhlachais agus ar nós na Roinne a bheith ann le iad spreagadh agus le iad a stopadh go minic nuair bheidh siad ag dul ro-fhada.

Tá chuile muinighin agamsa as an mBord agus as an bhfoirinn atá aca. Tá trácht air sa chúntas a léigh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte amach. Tá dul chun cinn déanta i dtaobh na mbád atá ag dul amach; tá dul chun cinn sa mhéid iasc atá curtha ar an margadh; tá dul chun cinn déanta ar an airgead atá le fagháil ag na h-iascairi agus trid is trid is féidir a rá go bhfuil rath ag teacht ar thionscal an iascai.

Is minic a deirtear agus a scriobhtar comhairle don Roinn, comhairle don Bhord agus comhairle don Dáil atá i n-aghaidh a chéile. Feicfidh tú litreacha ins na bpaipéiri a rá go bhfuil sé chó ceart againne an oiread iasc a mharbhadh agus a chur ar an margadh le tír ar bith eile i n-iarthar Eorpa agus, ar an lámh eile den scéal, gheobhaidh na h-udaráis comhairle ó na daoine atá i n-ainm a bheith ag cainnt ar son na n-iascairí a rá go bhfuil an iomarca báid dá chur amach. Bionn siad ag cleamhsán faoi ganntanas éisc ar an margadh, faoi an praghas a bheith ro-árd ar na daoine bochta agus, san am céadna, bionn daoine ag eleamhsán faoi iasc ar bith a leigint isteach thar saile don tír seo. Bhéadh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte, nó fear ar bith eile a bhéadh 'na áit, ar nós an fhir agus an asail ag iarraidh comhairle 'chuile dhuine a dhéanamh agus sa deireadh thiar thall ní shásodh sé aon duine. Mar sin, táim ag tabhairt comhairle don Rúnaí Parlaiminte an chainnt seo a thógaint le grainne salainn agus a intinn fhéin a dhéanamh suas tar eis comhairle a ghlacadh le na h-oifigí sa Roinn agus leis an mBord. Ar ndóigh, bhéadh sé i n-aghaidh nádúra an duine dá dtabharfadh na daoine a bhfuil an t-iascaireacht mar slí maireachtála aca comhairle dó nach mbéadh ar mhaithe leo féin. Má tá lámh istigh agat feicfidh tú chuige nach ngortófar an lámh istigh má tá neart ar bith agat air.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an ráiteas atá léite ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Teasbánann sé go bhfuil tús maith déanta ag an Bord nua. Má choinníonn sé air, ag leanúint an pholasaí a bhí ann go dtí seo—agus nílim a rá anois ó'n am a tháinig mé fhéin isteach san Oifig ach roimhe sin—dream ar nós an Bhúird a bheith idir an pobail, na h-iascairí agus lucht díolta, dream éigin a oibríos ar nós "honest broker," sin é an bealach is fearr ar mhaithe leis na h-iascairí, go mór mhór na h-iascairí ar an imeall bhúird ó Tír Chonaill go dtí Corcaigh, agus ar mhaithe leis an bpobal i gcoitinne.

Tá cead a gcinn anois ag na dioltóirí a dhul ag tóiríocht iad fhéin thall i Sasana a gcuid riachtanaísí éisc nuair bhíonn ceadunas acu a leithéid a leigint isteach ach ní dóigh liom gur féidir, ar mhaithe le na h-iascairí, níos mó a leigint isteach ná mar atá ceaduithe ag an Bord cheana agus is ceart an cumhacht sin a choinneál ag an Bord mar, dá dtabharfaí cead a gcinn do na díoltóirí, b'fhearr i bhfad leo an t-iasc d'fhagháil san áit is saoire a gheobhaidís é ná bheith á thóraíocht ar chósta Chiarraighe nó Gaillimh nó Cósta Thír Chonaill.

Ná tugadh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte aird ach oiread ar na h-iascairí seo a bhfuil báid aca fhéin cheana, báid maithe, báid a fuaireadar le deontas Stáit go fial flaitheamhail agus anois atá ag iarraidh cineál "preserve" do dhéanamh de mbargadh na hEireann agus gan tuille báid a sholáthar. Na h-iascairí a bhfuil báid mhaithe aca, tá siad ag déanamh go maith astu. Ní'l fhios agam an bhfuil aon tsaghas eile oibre i n-Eirinn a bhfuil luach saothair chó maith le fáil as ná mar atá le fáil ag iascairí atá ag obair leis na báid atá dhá soláthair anois. Chuala mé—is deacair, ar ndóigh an chainnt seo a chruthú nó a bhréagnú —ach chuala mé go bhfuil idir £8 agus £10 sa tseachtmhain dá shaothrú ag na gnath-iascairí a usáideann na báid seo agus ní'l fhios agam aon tsaghas eile oibre nó aon tsaghas eile céird gur féidir níos fearr ná sin a dhéanamh as.

Teastuíonn san am ceadna tuille báid agus teastuíonn scaipeadh ar na báid sin níos fairálta ar fúd an chósta agus teastuíonn, níos mó ná ceachtair aca sin, tuille stáisiún, go mór mhór ar an chósta ó Tir Chonaill síos go dtí Corcaigh leis an iasc a scaipeadh agus a dhíol níos eifeachtúla agus níos saoire ins na bailtí móra intire. Ná creideadh aon duine i ngeall air gur tugadh tús áite go Tir Chonaill gurab é sin tús agus deire scéil seo forbairte na hiascaireachta.

Tá caladh-phort maith sna Cealla Beaga. Bhí cabhlach maith bád iascaireachta in san áit sin agus tá eolas a gcéirde ag iascairí na háite sin agus níorbh aon ionadh é gur thosnaigh an Bord Iascaigh Mhara in áit den tsaghas sin le haghaidh na nua-phróiseanna, fuar-stóráil, cursaí deatachaithe agus mion-éisc a dhéanamh. Ní dóigh liom go bhféadfaidis tosnú in áit níos oiriúnaí ná na Cealla Beaga. Fé mar a léi mé i gceann de na páipéirí a chuir An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara amach, ní fíor gur chuir siad a gcuid uibheacha go léir in san aon chiseán amháin. Tá sé beartaithe acu, fé mar do léi an Rúnaí Parlaiminte amach, dul chuncinn leis an obair sin ar fuaid an chósta. Is sé mo thuairm féin gurb shin é an fá go bhfuil na mór-díoltóirí anuas ar pholasaí na Roinne agus anois ionnsaíonn siad gach rud a dheineann sí. Tá paipéir agam annseo—Irish Fishing and Fish Trades Gazette—dár dáta an 3ú Túil, 1954—agus deir sé:

"Obviously the boat-building must have been conducted at a profit or at a loss—but the report does not indicate which. It is hard to understand why the board should enter this industry of boat-building, at all, in competition with old-established private firms which enjoy the greatest goodwill in the fishing community. If it costs the board money to do so, this phase of its operations becomes more incomprehensible still. Perhaps this riddle will be cleared up in the board's next report, which must now be in an advanced state of preparation."

Oilibhear Ó Flanagáin:

Cad é an ainm atá ar an bpáipéar sin?

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin:

Irish Fishing and Fish Trades Gazette. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil cóip de ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte ina oifig féin. Cuirtear cóip i gcómhnaí chuig an Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Sé an fá gur thagair mé don rud sin ná go raibh ar an gComhlachas dul go hAlbain a chúig nó a sé de blianta ó shoin ann chun a ndóthain bád d'fháil. Ní raibh lucht déanta na mbád i nÉirinn i ndán dóthain bád den tsaghas seo do chur ar fáil. Bíodh go bhfuil an obair seo ar siúl ag an mBord féin níl ach an ceathrú chuid den éileamh le haghaidh bád iascaireachta dhá shásamh. Tá go leor cainte den tsaghas sin ar an bpáipéar seo agus chífidh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte é. Bíodh sé cinnte den mhéid seo nach bhfeicfidh sé oiread agus focal amháin molta ar an bpáipéar seo muna ndeineann sé a dtoil agus má dheineann sé a dtoil ní bheidh sé ag déanamh toil na n-iascairí ná ag obair mar mhaithe leis na hiascairí.

Cuirim fáilte roimh ráiteas an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte agus guím rath ar an obair. Má leanann sé an polasaí, na pleananna agus na beartanna atá tugtha síos sa chúntas aige ní raghaidh sé ró-fhada amú. Ach ná bíodh aon díomá air má fhághann sé ó na dreamanna atá páirteach san tionscal seo cómhairle atá in aghaidh a chéile. Ní chuala mise riamh aon fhocal uathu ach amháin gurb é an Bord "the common enemy" agus go mbeidh siad go léir ina choinne. Gheobhaidh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte lideadh ón méid sin.

Mr. McMenamin:

Before I say anything of a general character about this Estimate, there are two matters I raised recently with the Parliamentary Secretary. One of these matters was the export duty of 2d. per lb. imposed on salmon last year. That, in my opinion, was wrong. The real trouble is the delay caused in the handling of the fish for export. As everybody knows, you cannot wrap salmon for export in tissue paper. The salmon have to be packed in cases. Of course, the fishermen weigh the salmon and give the actual weight of the fish in the boxes. When the cases are brought to the customs station the boxes have to be opened again and the fish reweighed in order to get an accurate return. Therefore, they are held up for so long that they miss the connection for transport to the London market and are then delivered in Dublin in a second or third-class condition. Of course, that is a serious loss to the exporters. The disputes about the weighing of boxes containing fish when they arrive at the customs station are a serious matter so far as the export trade is concerned.

The carrying companies are gravely perturbed about the matter. Naturally they are anxious that merchandise handed to them should be dispatched as efficiently as possible. Naturally, again, when things go wrong it is the transport company that is blamed whereas the transport company has really nothing to do in the matter. This is a contract between the fishermen on the one hand and the customs officials on the other.

Now there is a serious disadvantage arising through the impost of 2d. per lb. on the export of salmon. I have had no definite intimation as yet from the Government, but I hope that an end will be put to this as speedily as possible. I do not believe the sum of money involved is a very large one but the injury done to the quality of the fish delivered to the London market and the loss resulting from that injury falls on the unfortunate fisherman.

That is the serious aspect of this matter. I objected to this impost as vigorously as I could when it was introduced. To-day, I object even more strongly to it because of the complications that follow through the holding up of the fish and the unnecessary handling of the fish, together with disputes about the weight of the particular fish. It would be a simple matter if one could rush up a consignment of salmon to a customs station under one's arm, put it on the scales and weigh it there and then. Unfortunately, it is not as easy as that. Fish must not be injured. If they are manhandled in transport their subsequent marketability is affected on the London market. Any injury to the dead fish affects the price. Those who buy high-priced fish are entitled to get it in first-class condition; if they do not get it in first-class condition they will not take it.

About three weeks ago I put down a question to the Parliamentary Secretary in relation to herrings landed on the coast of Donegal in November, December and January last. My information is that these herrings were landed at Kincasslagh and were then taken by lorry some 30 or 40 miles to Downings, where they were cleaned, cured and packed. If that information is correct, why were these herrings taken all the way to Downings for the purpose of packing them there, causing serious injury to the quality of the fish because of unnecessary handling? What was the purpose? What was the cost involved by the time the fish were ready for the market? Of course, when the fish were ready for the market there was apparently no market for them and they have been lying out in the open ever since, a disgrace to the whole organisation that deals with our fisheries. Surely it should have been possible to find a market for them some place instead of leaving them to decay there. I am puzzled as to why this fish could not have been distributed to the trade all over the country. It is a very sound business motto to "cut your losses"; it is better to get something rather than to get nothing. Why were these fish cured at all? Why were they purchased unless there was a prospect of a market for them? Was it a mere whim that gave rise to this situation?

We hear talk here and elsewhere about the fishing industry being potentially the second most important industry in this country. Yet, down in Donegal there are 1,100 half barrels and 100 barrels lying on the beach at Downings under all sorts of weather for the last six months. It makes one despair about this industry. I almost feel ashamed of speaking about it but, having constituents interested in fishing, I cannot completely ignore it, much as I would like to do so.

The statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to-day is the usual stereotyped statement that leads nowhere. I will be told, of course, that we are not a fish-eating people. I would like to know how anybody can eat something that they cannot get. Outside of Dublin, where will one get fish? The Irish people cannot eat fish because they cannot get it. Why were these herrings not distributed during the season of Lent all over the country instead of being allowed to rot on the beach at Downings? I am sure a reasonably good price could have been got for that fish, a price which would have given a profit ultimately.

The fishing areas around our coasts are becoming denuded of people and in another 20 or 50 years there will not be a solitary working fisherman in one of these areas. For years one particular area in my constituency had been asking for accommodation for the fishermen for the purpose of landing their catches. At every general election one, two or three engineers went down to Donegal, probably to catch the votes of these poor unfortunate people. About a month or six weeks ago a final declaration was made that the cost of the proposed work would be too expensive. Was it not obvious the very first day that the cost of the work would be too expensive? Surely it was not necessary to wait until 1954 to inform the unfortunate people of the final decision.

These men are now without any hope for the future. There is no shelter for their boats from the north and north west winds. We are told in April, 1954, that the project is too dear and the Department could not accept it. Is it any wonder that the young men are flying as quickly as they can to Birmingham, Coventry and Cardiff where they become an asset to the community in which they live? Is the saving of our own people not worth £100,000 or £200,000? Money is wasted in other directions, spent in directions in which it is of no use to the community. As a matter of fact in some instances it is demoralising to the community.

I have spoken before on the development and the marketing of the produce of the fishing industry on a rational basis. Everybody knows that in the main, outside the City of Dublin, one cannot procure fish in this country. I suggested before that the Department should secure insulated vans that would take delivery of the fish at the ports and deliver it in the principal towns of the country. The fish should be taken in that way from the various fishing ports along the west and east coast and delivered throughout the country.

Mr. Bartley:

There are two of them working already.

Mr. McMenamin:

In what areas do they distribute the fish? We are a long time about having anything done in that way.

Mr. Bartley:

Well, it is better to have two than none.

Mr. McMenamin:

One would think from what is said here that this country was as big as America. I imagine that half a dozen such vans would be able to do the entire country. Now, we are told that we have two. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary, who I believe was born inland, that he should apply his organising and business ability to the making of a real approach to this matter of providing efficient transport so that the fish can be delivered in all parts of the country. The fish should be taken from the fishing ports in insulated vans and delivered in the principal towns, and then, in some other way, to the neighbouring small towns and villages.

That would be a simple and practical way of getting over the present difficulty. It would also mean getting the people back to the practice of consuming fish. In order to do that, it will be necessary, I think, to engage in an advertising campaign. There should not be any difficulty about that because at the moment we have two organisations dealing with hotels and catering places. Use could also be made of the menu cards which are to be found on hotel tables by having some catchy phrase on them such as "Eat more fish". That, I suggest, would be a method of encouraging people to eat more fish. It would also be necessary to give people the assurance that fresh fish in perfect condition will at times be available for them. Unless something on these lines is done the position will remain as it is. There is no use in anybody coming into this House and making statements year after year which lead nowhere. There are districts in my constituency where the fishing industry is dying out. Down through the centuries the predecessors of the people living in those areas to-day made their living out of the industry and, curiously enough, they did that without any Government aid. During the period when the Congested Districts Board was in existence, it did give them some considerable help. The position to-day is that the industry is in a state of decay. The young men will not engage in it and they are right. What encouragement is there for them? In Downings, their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers were able to make a living out of the industry, but what encouragement is there for the men of to-day when they see perhaps 1,000 barrels of herrings rotting on the beach? The fish is there but it cannot be sold. In that situation, what is the use of all the blatherskite and hypocrisy there is about the fishing industry being our second largest industry? It makes one squirm to have to sit and listen to that. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to do something to correct that situation. He has the opportunity now of doing something not for himself but for the country, and I hope that he will not fail the country or the people in those areas along the coast in the performance of the task that lies before him. I wish him every luck in tackling this problem.

Mr. P.J. Burke:

Before I say anything about the fishing industry, I want, first of all, to refer to the condition of the harbours, particularly in the North County Dublin portion of my constituency. I am only too well aware of the neglect that there has been of our fishing harbours. It is a matter on which I have been making representations over almost 11 years. I should like to see the present Parliamentary Secretary getting control not only of the fishing boats but of the harbours as well. I made representations of this kind to the previous Government and to his predecessor, and I am doing so again on this Estimate. I believe that it is not only the duty of the Parliamentary Secretary and his Department, and of the board, to supply boats but to look after the harbours as well. Although I have been making representation on these lines for years, I must confess that I have got nowhere.

As regards the harbours in my area, I have got promises. Inspections have also been carried out. In Loughshinny harbour, we have one of the best fishing fleets in North County Dublin, but the boats can only stay in the harbour during three months of the year. They have to go to Skerries for the remaining nine months, and, even in the case of that harbour, if a coal boat comes in, the fishing boats have to go out. In my opinion, if we want to do anything really serious about the fishing industry we will have to give the Parliamentary Secretary charge of the harbours. Otherwise his task is going to be a hopeless one. His predecessor, Deputy Bartley, did his best for me. He had inspections carried out and he tried to get the harbours improved. He sent his officers there to see what could be done. The Dublin County Council is in control of Loughshinny harbour; the Board of Works is in control of Howth harbour, while the Port and Docks Board is in charge of the harbours at Skerries and Balbriggan.

As far as I can see, the Parliamentary Secretary is just a cockle shell in troubled waters. We may make representations to him across the floor of the House, and then find that he is not in absolute control of the harbours. My opinion is that nothing really worth while can be done about the fishing industry until the Parliamentary Secretary is given control over the harbours along the coast. There are a few coal boats going into Balbriggan, and a few to Skerries but nothing to Loughshinny, and just a few to Howth, but if we are to be serious about our fishing industry I believe that this is a very urgent matter and it is a very sad reflection on us that after 11 years I have still to talk about the neglect of our harbours here. That goes for all Parties in this House. When you go to meet these fishermen you have nothing for them and they say: "You might as well not come here at all: you are only joking," notwithstanding the fact that I was absolutely sincere every time I met these men, but I was frustrated with every representation I made. I was told that Dublin County Council would give so much, that the Department of Agriculture would give so much more. There was a row going on before as to whether the boats should go into Loughshinny or whether they should go into Skerries, but now both harbours are in a very bad way and ill-suited to receive fishing boats or anything else such as the landing of fish. I cannot make that point too strongly because the time to do something practical about it is long overdue.

We have another harbour at Rush which silted up so badly with blowing sand that boats could not come in there and the fishermen gave up and went to get other jobs. When they did that, the sand was cleaned out but then there were no fishermen.

While I am speaking in this strain, I am not saying a word against any Parliamentary Secretary because the only thing wrong was that the official whether it was the Parliamentary Secretary or the Department of Fisheries that was in charge was in charge only of boats and not of harbours.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Is the Deputy advocating legislation?

Mr. P.J. Burke:

I am asking——

An Ceann Comhairle:

Well, now, I gave the Deputy a good innings and I think he has said sufficient.

Mr. P.J. Burke:

I am very grateful but it was the only point I wanted to stress and I am delighted to have got an opportunity of stressing it. I would like to say finally to the Parliamentary Secretary: your job will be hopeless if you do not have more power than you have. Whether it means legislation or not, I am dealing with the fishing industry and anything I say refers to the fishing industry that I am concerned with in my own constituency.

With reference to the boats—we have 50-foot boats for fishing for North County Dublin and the fishermen are anxious to do their best. They are anxious to take advantage of every opportunity they get for fishing. They have a number of grievances from time to time. They would not be human otherwise—and they want protection. I am all for protection of inshore fishermen. If we cannot encourage inshore fishermen to do better, to catch more fish and put them on the market at more competitive prices, then the fishing industry as we know it in this country, will completely disappear. There are a number of families traditionally associated with fishing over hundreds of years and the last speaker made one point with which I thoroughly agree when he said that what has happened our fishing industry is this: that a number of our people have been faced with buying fish that has been tainted and as a result of that— they were "caught" once or twice— they said: "We will buy something else". That is what turned many of our people against purchasing fish.

The only way in which that can be remedied is by ensuring that as well as having fresh fish in Dublin we will be able to provide means of transport to transfer the fish in good condition to the inland towns. On many occasions I have had numerous complaints about the condition of the fish in such towns because it is not properly handled when it is sent down the country and the people do not like to buy it when it is in a bad state. I believe the only way to change that is to do as the previous Parliamentary Secretary did — provide quick freezing and transportation of the fish to be sent to the large inland towns so that it will arrive in proper condition. Otherwise the fish industry will slowly decline. Our inshore fishermen have but one market here and if there is a glut in the Dublin market they have no other place to send the fish unless they have a few friends down the country to whom they might chance sending it.

I am all for private enterprise, but I believe that in order to put the fishing industry back on the map, we have to go a long way beyond private enterprise and call for State enterprise. In doing that, so far as fishing is concerned, I mean ensuring that the fish will be put on the market in inland towns in proper condition and so encourage people to become fish-minded again. Many of our people think it is a penance to eat fish because it was not supplied in proper condition and they have turned against it. It was the manner in which it was handled that was responsible for that. We have to try to get away from that outlook which has grown up over a long number of years because of the manner in which fish had been handled. While there are many large wholesalers of fish in the country who might be able to do this they feel perhaps that they are doing all right here in Dublin and able to make a living and are reluctant to go beyond that. Then, the fish that is sent to hospitals and institutions is often tainted and that should not be the case.

I say here that we want to make our people eat more fish and to do this it will have to be handled properly. That means more intervention of State enterprise. Fishing is a valuable industry to our country: other countries have proved its value and we here in Ireland have, I must say, a very long way to go before we can really say we have a fishing industry. We are only at the tail of things and we have a long journey to go and in order to achieve our aim the only thing that can be done is to give the Parliamentary Secretary more money and power to carry out his job.

The previous Parliamentary Secretary started to introduce the quick freezing plant but unfortunately he was not long enough there to carry out the ideas he had to improve the fishing industry. We have had reports from time to time about the fish-meal factories that have been established in other countries. Here we are importing fish-meal, and if we can see our way, with the improvement of our inshore fisheries, we could perhaps establish a factory to make fish-meal here. This would be very welcome to the fishermen of the country and to the people as a whole. It would be another advance towards trying to produce things in this country that we are in a position to produce and avoid having to pay foreign labour to do what we can do ourselves.

We are importing a lot of canned fish of all kinds into this country. I know we have got a long way to go, but if we had a canning industry here we would be able to can some of the fish we require ourselves instead of having to import it and pay foreign labour for doing things we should be in a position to do.

These are practical things that I have repeatedly referred to in this House during the debate on fisheries. I know these schemes cannot be taken up overnight but I nevertheless feel that we should be further advanced after all the years of native government we have had here. I must say we have advanced a good deal in giving our people better boats. I remember 31 years ago when we had small boats fishing from some of the harbours that have 50-foot boats now. I know the difficulties that the officials of the Department had in encouraging people to get larger boats. Now that the people realise the advantage of larger boats they want better harbours to accommodate them and more luck to them. The natural trend is to encourage our people to go more out to sea and to catch a greater variety of fish. I want to say to our inshore fishermen that the more varied the supply of fish they land, the better chance they will have of making a living. Unfortunately, they sometimes land a type of fish of which there is a glut on the Dublin market. Then they have no way of disposing of them unless An Bord Iascaigh Mhara buys them and dumps them, unless they can otherwise dispose of them. If we had more quick freezing plants or a canning industry we would be in a position to help these people to a greater extent.

Another grievance which I have often stressed before arises from the condition under which the hire purchase system is operated. I think that fishermen of good standing should not be obliged to pay down initially so much of the purchase price because that condition is deterring many good fishermen from acquiring boats. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary may say that if a man is worth his salt, he will have sufficient money to enable him to put down the required amount but there are many good fishermen who owing to circumstances over which they have no control, cannot get sufficient money to make the initial deposit even though the fisherman is allowed to pay for the boat as he earns.

I know that the previous Parliamentary Secretary was very charitably disposed towards these people, and I must say that I have had the same experience with the present Parliamentary Secretary, but I do feel that if a little more leniency were shown or a little more help given to these struggling people it would be a very great help to them. The complaints I receive come from people whose fathers and grandfathers were fishermen before them. Through no fault of their own, they are not able to pay the initial deposit required and in that way they are prevented from carrying on an occupation which has been traditional in their families. I come from a part of the country where there are a number of islands off the coast and on these islands there was quite a number of fishermen when I was a child. These people have since left the islands and gone to England and America. I say that in a locality where you have good fishermen who are anxious to get larger boats they should get every encouragement possible, because, so far as I can see, if the decline in the fishing industry is allowed to go on unchecked, especially having regard to the fact that people down the country are no longer inclined to eat fish, in 20 years' time there will be no fishermen left. Many of them have taken up other occupations. Any encouragement which we can give them to remain in the fishing industry should not be withheld, and I think we should give the Parliamentary Secretary all the power and all the money he needs to develop the industry to the greatest possible extent.

Mr. Coogan:

I should like to bring to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary the question of the transport of fish in the West of Ireland, and when I say "the West," I mean the whole coast line down as far as Kerry. The position at the moment is, as we know, that C.I.E. has to get 12 hours' notice if they are to provide lorries for fishermen. We know that time or tide waits for no man, and now I think we can say the same of the C.I.E. They are not prepared to provide a lorry unless they get 12 hours' notice. I suggest that representations should be made to C.I.E. with a view to getting them to provide more facilities for our fishermen. This is a matter that the Parliamentary Secretary should take up with C.I.E., if fishing in the West is to be made an economic proposition. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to make a note of the points I have mentioned.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

Coming from a constituency where fishing was formerly a very important industry, I think it would not be right for me to allow this Estimate to pass without making a few brief comments. First of all, I am very glad to see in charge of the Department of Fisheries, a man like the present Parliamentary Secretary, a young, active man with energy and push behind him. I believe that under Deputy Flanagan's control of the Department much benefit will accrue to the fishermen of this country. I have great faith and confidence in him. He has displayed his energy in this House over the past nine or ten years and represented his own constituents in a very capable way and I believe that if he puts the same vigour into the Department of Fisheries the condition of the average fisherman will be very much better.

Fishermen have been neglected in the past. I have had complaints every day from fishermen throughout the West Cork constituency, an area where fishing was always recognised as the second most important industry. It is indeed very painful to see sons of old fishermen compelled to emigrate to England and other countries while the industry is on the decline and very much on the decline. Similarly people living on the islands off the West Cork coast—and I believe this is typical of the position throughout the country— have no alternative but to emigrate.

I know it is rather difficult to rectify that position. It has been put to me by many fishermen that the main havoc to the industry arises from the presence off our coasts of foreign trawlers. Off the West Cork coast we have trawlers, from Spain mainly, almost every day of the week. The three mile limit seems to be no deterrent whatever to them. It is the general complaint amongst fishermen in many places that these people come close in to the coast without any regard for the three mile limit and take away whatever fish is available. I think that more power should be given to the Fishery Department to enable them to have vessels capable of dealing with these foreigners going around the coastline. I raised a question here a few years ago as to the possibility of increasing the three mile limit. Many fishermen feel that it would be a marked advantage if the limit could be increased to six miles. That probably is a major issue as it raises an international question but from information I have received of late, I believe that the limit has been increased in Norway and in one or two other countries. If that is the position I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to inquire as to the possibility of increasing the limit to six miles in this country. As I say it would be a marked advantage to fishermen all round our coasts.

The second obstacle with which the fishermen have to contend is the fact that they are forced to "make do" with ill-equipped boats. Unfortunately, most of these men have very little capital and they cannot invest in new boats which are, indeed, very costly. The price of any fair type of boat is in the region of £5,000 or £6,000. I am very well aware that the Fisheries Board makes loans available for the purchase of such boats but these loans are of little value to many of the fishermen I know—and I think it would be general throughout the country—because in order to qualify for one of these loans they have to put down a percentage of the total amount and, into the bargain, they have to get solvent sureties. Even though these people are very honest and decent and hard-working they find it very difficult, in view of their financial circumstances, to get sureties. No person would like to go surety in respect of a four-figure sum of money no matter how honest the borrower might be and the House will appreciate the difficulties facing a fisherman who has no other means and whose family would have no other means at their disposal should anything happen. Consequently, the main cry of the fishermen in that district is that they cannot avail of these loans.

Mr. Bartley:

The sureties were abolished 20 years ago.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

Does the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture seriously tell this House that a fisherman can apply for a loan in respect of a modern boat costing £5,000 or £6,000 and lodge 10 per cent. of the cost of it and get the boat without any surety whatsoever?

Mr. Bartley:

Yes.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

The former Parliamentary Secretary did not put that into practice during the three years he was in charge of the Department of Fisheries, so far as the fishermen of West Cork are concerned. Inquiries were sent all over the country to ascertain the financial standing of the applicants.

Mr. Bartley:

20 years.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

You made none of the boats available to the fishermen of West Cork, mainly on the grounds that they were not solvent.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

Deputy Bartley should address the Chair.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

The statement which has just been made by Deputy Bartley that money to purchase boats will be made available to fishermen throughout this country without any security whatsoever is information to me and it certainly will be information to the fishermen of West Cork.

Mr. Bartley:

Without sureties.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

Without security.

Mr. Bartley:

Sureties.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

Would Deputy Bartley be so good as to define the difference between "sureties" and "securities"? He did not do it for the fishermen during the three years he was in office. I dislike having to make that comment. I challenge Deputy Bartley here and now on the accuracy of his statement that substantial loans will be made available to fishermen to purchase equipment without any securities whatsoever.

Mr. Bartley:

Without sureties.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

I say that that is not the position.

Mr. Bartley:

Sureties.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

What is the difference?

Mr. Bartley:

No personal sureties are now required. They were abolished 20 years ago.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

That being so, will the former Parliamentary Secretary answer this question? I ask the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to bear with me for a few minutes as this is very interesting and very important.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

The Deputy can put his questions through the Chair.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

Yes. Did Deputy Bartley, when he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture and in charge of the Fisheries Branch, make loans available, without securities, to fishermen in this country and, if so, can he tell us the approximate number of fishermen who got these substantial loans without any securities whatsoever? None of the people in West Cork would qualify or could qualify for such loans. Will the former Parliamentary Secretary now tell the House the approximate number of fishermen in this country who were able to avail of such loans without any security whatsoever? I will wait for an answer.

Mr. Bartley:

They are all getting them.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

Could the Deputy give us any idea of the number of fishermen involved? It is impossible to define "all" in this context.

Mr. Bartley:

Since 1931: every fisherman since 1931.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

The position is that these loans are not made available. I have contacted the Fisheries Branch sufficiently often to be well aware of that fact. If such loans were made available without any securities of any kind, they must have been made available to some of Deputy Bartley's friends in West Galway during the three years he was in office.

Mr. Bartley:

That is quite true. They got them in Galway.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

They did not get them in my constituency. Deputy Bartley may have helped some of his key men in Galway. That has been the policy of Fianna Fáil all the time. Possibly the Deputy did benefit some of his friends down there by giving them such free loans in respect of the purchase of modern fishing boats. His seat in West Galway is rather shaky and possibly Deputy Bartley did go out of his way in that matter with a view to being returned to this Dáil.

Mr. O. Flanagan:

They will not want them in Laois-Offaly. That is a consolation.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

What I am trying to impress on the present Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O. Flanagan, is the need for reviewing the whole position in so far as the supply of equipment to fishermen of good standing is concerned. Where a group of decent, honest, hard-working fishermen apply to this Department for a substantial grant and loan to enable them to provide themselves with equipment, and submit a good case, they should be enabled to go out on the waters and compete with foreign trawlers by being given such grants and loans. It is very difficult for these fishermen to get securities and, in many cases, it is very difficult for them to put together the percentage of money which is required: the minimum percentage would be 10 per cent. of the cost of the equipment.

I believe the Parliamentary Secretary could devise some system whereby suitable credit facilities would be made available for these fishermen or whereby they would be given a certain length of time, wherein they would have an opportunity of earning something from the boats, before they would be asked to pay the 10 per cent. in full.

I should like, now, to refer to applications which are made from time to time to the Department in respect of the improvement of piers and slips. At many points along our coastline, we have very inadequate piers and slips. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary—when these applications come before him and when he sees that they are supported by satisfactory evidence as to the advantages of the work—to bear in mind the urgency of the matter and to give the applications as sympathetic a hearing as possible. In particular, I want to refer to an agitation which has been going on for the past four or five years in the Schull area of my constituency. The local fishermen are seeking a grant from the Department of Agriculture for the erection of a breakwater there.

As has been pointed out by these fishermen and by their representatives in this House for the past three or four years, the erection of a breakwater would be of immense benefit to the fishing industry in Schull. As things are at the moment, the boats are in danger every stormy night. The fishermen live in the fear that, after a stormy night, there will be no sign of their boats the following morning and that they will be swept out to sea. They made a very strong case in the matter to the former Parliamentary Secretary but with little avail. I trust their application will receive a more sympathetic hearing from the present Parliamentary Secretary.

There is another important point to which I should like to refer—it is a a matter which I cannot properly understand—and that is the reservation of certain fishery rights in this country. I referred to it some years ago when I spoke on this Vote. Long stretches of rivers are entirely reserved to certain people. In some cases these people are of a foreign element. They are neither Irish in name nor in origin. I cannot see why they should get these rights as the rivers should be free to every man and woman to fish if they wish and if they get a licence to do so. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to examine that question very closely and carefully, because it is amazing to find miles of rivers confined solely to those people and their friends, while Irishmen are not allowed to fish them. It is about time to take away these rights from such people. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to examine the question as closely and as carefully as possible with a view to reviewing the whole position and withdrawing from these people the rights which they now hold and to which they are not entitled.

The Parliamentary Secretary has only been in office for a short time and it would be unfair to make any further comments. As I said at the outset, I represent a constituency where there is a greater percentage of fishermen than in any other constituency and I am quite satisfied with the man who is now in charge of that Department. I know very well he will do everything he can to ensure that the fishermen of this country will at least get the fair and square deal to which they are justly entitled.

Mr. Palmer:

I had no intention of speaking in this debate as these Estimates were produced by the previous Parliamentary Secretary. However, owing to some remarks made by the Parliamentary Secretary, by Deputy Burke and by Deputy Murphy, I cannot let the occasion pass without going back for a moment and giving a kind of résumé of the position in connection with fisheries since I came into this House in 1948. The position then was —and what I say cannot be contradicted—that a fisherman could not get a boat or gear or equipment unless he deposited with the Sea Fisheries Association a sum comparable to 50 per cent. of what he proposed to purchase. When we came into office in 1948, the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, who was in charge of the Fisheries Department, reduced that to 20 per cent and then to 10 per cent. and even 5 per cent., and he made a statement in this House, which he carried out as far as I know in my constituency, that any fisherman who had paid up all his commitments would not be left without a boat or gear provided he could show that he was a good fisherman. That was carried out.

In 1951 we left office, and when Fianna Fáil came into office that was carried out for a period; but the position when they left office was that no fisherman would get gear and equipment unless he paid 100 per cent. deposit. Furthermore, there were restrictions imposed on the importation of this equipment into the country. The Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, in his time, gave definite instructions that any such equipment required by fishermen should be imported free of duty and that there should be no delay in the customs because of the necessity for such equipment. That was the position after we came into office in 1948 and the position when we left office in 1951.

Furthermore, before 1948, our inshore fishermen had not suitable boats. They were old and derelict and ill-equipped. Provision was made by which our inshore fishermen would be provided with boats with which they could go out to sea to some extent. What did Fianna Fáil do in their term of office? They purchased five German trawlers which were supposed to be secondhand. Manned by Germans, they were brought across the North Sea. Some of them, I think, were almost wrecked. It is a pity they were not all wrecked; it would be much better if they were. They were brought to Killybegs or some other place on the north-west coast. I believe they were to be worked from various places on the western sea-board provided Fianna Fáil continued in office, but luckily they did not continue in office.

We do not want those boats. We want to make provision for the inshore fishermen. We want very quickly to make provision by which they will get all the necessary equipment, boats and gear and whatever they want, as was promised by Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture, as he is now again with a Parliamentary Secretary. We want to go back to that and make all the necessary provision for our fishermen so that they will have the best of boats and gear and everything they want on the best terms possible.

When those German trawlers were purchased we did not really know what they were to do. They must have cost an immense sum of money. They are certainly deleterious to the work which our inshore fishermen wish to carry out. All provision should be made, and I am sure will be made, by this Government and the Department of Fisheries to ensure that our fishermen will have the best of boats and gear, so that our fishing industry will again reach the position which it once held of being second only to agriculture, if the fish are there. Some say the fish are not there. Some say they were there until the Fianna Fáil Government came into office in 1932, because the fishermen were very prosperous up to then. We can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that those of us who are interested in the fishing industry will give him all the necessary information during his period of office and will do everything possible with all sections of our people so that once again the fishing industry may be made prosperous.

When Fianna Fáil came into office in 1951 they set up a board called An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. I can tell you that there are people on that board who know nothing about fishing. It is simply a political board like various other boards and we have no confidence in it. I hope that before this Government is long in power some board will be set up entirely different from that. If any board is set up at all, I hope the members of it will know something about fishing and will ensure that our fishermen will have the necessary equipment to catch the fish and, when they do catch them, that provision will be made to market them even in the remotest villages and rural areas in this country. Fish should reach those areas in perfect condition. At present when the fish reaches certain areas it is not possible to get it in fit condition to purchase. There should be something like insulated vans so that when the fish would be caught it would be sent off at once, or C.I.E. should make provision for its transport to different areas. We are not supposed to be fond of fish, but if it were delivered fresh and in proper condition to the people they would certainly make full use of the commodity delivered.

I could be talking for the next hour about the whole fishing industry but I do not want to develop the whole position. I just want to refer to some things that were said by Deputies; but I can tell you this, Sir, that if the people of this country wish the fishing industry to prosper they must take it out of politics entirely and make all provision necessary for the welfare of our fishermen, not only to equip them well but also for their protection when out on the high seas, giving them the best equipment possible and doing everything then, when they come into land, so that the fish will be delivered to the people in the freshest manner possible.

Mr. O. Flanagan:

I feel that the last sentence so capably and efficiently uttered by Deputy Palmer was the most common-sense and practical sentence of the whole debate, when he said that the fishing industry should be taken out of politics completely. I fully share his views in that. I do think that mixing the two is regrettable, and has proven so in every industry in which politics take a more important part than the advancement of the industry itself. I hope and trust that, whatever may have been the past of fisheries, so far as politics and fisheries are concerned from now on, they may be considered completely divorced. I would give a guarantee on my own behalf, and I am sure can give it to the House on behalf of the Minister, that we will see to it that as far as the fishing industry is concerned it will be kept aloof from politics.

Mr. Bartley:

Could the Parliamentary Secretary indicate in what way politics have been introduced into the fishery industry by me?

Mr. O. Flanagan:

I am serious in the observation I have made, and I want to give every Deputy and all Parties in this House an assurance that in so far as that important industry is concerned it is going to be kept aloof and away from politics.

Deputy Bartley in the course of his speech has paid tribute to the work of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and to the efficiency of the board. I feel that I have not been in office sufficiently long to examine fully the activities of the board. I do not know the personnel of the board, except many of them by repute. I have not had the pleasure of meeting all the members of the board, but I do hope, now that the Estimate and the busy time in so far as this Department is concerned are passing, to make myself more familiar with the workings of the board so that I may have a thorough grasp of all its activities. I hope that time will give me an opportunity of meeting the members of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and examining very deeply and thoroughly their activities in every possible respect in so far as the terms of reference of that board are concerned.

I want to assure the House—and I am sure that Deputy Bartley will accept the guarantee—that any help that can be given to the fishermen and to the fishing industry in general will be given. I am not saying that he has not been generous in the past with that help. I only wanted to take this opportunity of assuring the fishermen and all concerned in the fishing industry that so far as we are concerned if they feel at any time that they have matters connected with their industry about which they desire an interview, through their Deputies or direct themselves to the Minister, in so far as the Minister for Agriculture and I are concerned they will be pushing an open door. We will always be pleased to meet them, to discuss problems with them; and, furthermore, we shall take very great pleasure in examining very fully and closely the important points of view which they may have to raise. Not alone will we give a sympathetic hearing, but we will do what we possibly can to further their interests and to be guided by their advice which, I may say, is the practical advice from the industry itself which must come from the fishermen. I give this House a further assurance that if any occasion arises on which, in the interests of the fishing industry, any group of public-spirited citizens desire to put forward their views so far as that industry is concerned, they are a thousand times welcome either to the Minister or myself. We will be very pleased to meet them.

I think that Deputy Bartley will agree with me that for the current financial year we have a fairly good programme on hands which will be of great advantage to the fishing industry. He may recall that, as I endeavoured to point out when introducing this Estimate, it is hoped in the current financial year to provide advances from the Central Fund to a total of £150,000. The chief items to be financed out of this sum are the provision of boats and gear being issued on hire purchase terms. We are going to spend approximately £75,000 in that respect. On that may I refer to Deputy Murphy of West Cork, when he queried the question of the purchase of those boats?

It is true to say that if a fisherman deposits 10 per cent. of the total cost of the boat he will be sympathetically considered by the board for a boat, but it must be taken into consideration that some of those boats cost from £7,000 to £8,000. I think that the State is taking a great risk in paying and providing 90 per cent. of the cost, and that the board is reasonable in its request when 10 per cent. is asked from the fisherman as a deposit. The State is treating him reasonably in giving him 90 per cent. of the total cost of the boat, gear and equipment. I may say that I agree fully with Deputy Palmer that the conditions which now prevail are far from the conditions that prevailed prior to 1948 in that respect.

Mr. Bartley:

Was it 50 per cent. in 1948?

Mr. O. Flanagan:

I want to express to Deputy Murphy my thanks for the very kind words which he has spoken about me. I only hope and trust that I will be able to live up to the high expectations of Deputy Murphy in that respect. I can assure him that I will do what I can.

Deputy McMenamin raised a very important point, and I should like to refer to it, with reference to the continuation of the levy on exports of salmon. Deputy McMenamin also raised this matter in a recent parliamentary question. I have had some discussions with the Minister, and I can assure Deputy McMenamin that his views received full consideration. The matter is one, however, which involves financial considerations, and it is proposed to submit it for the consideration of the Government at an early date. That is the position in so far as that is concerned.

The Deputy spoke also of a consignment of cured herring which is at present at Downings and he said, if I remember correctly, that that consignment had been there for approximately six months. It might be well for me to remark at this stage that I have been only a month in office, so that this consignment must have been there for five months before I took office. Whatever state of affairs exists at present in relation to that consignment, we are taking every care to ensure that it will not happen again, and I am satisfied that the officers of the Department and the management of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara are leaving nothing undone to see that that consignment is disposed of with the least possible loss. I have asked continuously what progress has been made with regard to its disposal and I am satisfied from the information placed at my disposal by the officers of the Department that everything humanly possible is being done to dispose of it.

I can assure Deputies that, so far as we are concerned, everything possible will be done to have a market for that consignment. It is only right to remark that the herrings at Downings must be cured at some particular point and Downings is regarded as the most suitable point. The Deputy has said that the fish was taken from Kincasslagh to Downings. That may be so.

There is a very special problem, as the Deputy probably knows, at Glengad and to make the harbour at Glengad suitable and satisfactory would cost in the region of £500,000. That is something which must give us thought. However, plans are awaited from the Donegal County Council for an alternative scheme and it might be well if the Deputy and other Deputies concerned got on to the Donegal County Council and asked for an expediting of whatever plans are being prepared in the engineer's department of a less expensive type.

The Deputy also asked for the sale value of the herrings in question. That figure is a figure of approximately £3,000, but it is well to mention that there is no demand in the home market for such cured herring. It is well that should be placed on record, but he may rest assured that everything possible is being done to dispose of them and I will keep in close touch with the management of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to ensure that they are kept alive to the necessity of disposing of them with the least possible delay.

Deputy Burke made a reference— and I suppose there is a lot in it—to the state of repair of fishing harbours. It must be borne in mind that that responsibility rests on the local authorities and that county councils have full power and authority in the matter.

Deputy Murphy referred to the breakwater at Schull. I recently met a deputation of the fishermen led by the parish priest of Schull and I was impressed by the case they put forward, which was backed by the Deputy's recommendation. I have been informed that, within the past few days, the engineers of the Office of Public Works, at the request of the officers of this Department, have been carrying out a survey in relation to the representations put forward by the deputation and the parish priest whom I met at the offices of the Department last week. I can assure Deputy Murphy and the interested fishermen of Schull who put up a very good case for the provision of a breakwater in that area that no time will be lost in having the matter fully, carefully and sympathetically examined.

Deputy Coogan of Galway referred to the transport of fish by C.I.E. and I was rather surprised by the observations he made. If he will be good enough to give me instances of such treatment by C.I.E., I shall have the matter investigated with the least possible delay. I can assure him it will be looked into and, when it has been, I will communicate with him directly with regard to it. I am grateful to him for drawing my attention to the matter.

Deputy Burke also referred to the imports of fish and said he was amazed by the amount of fish imported. It may be interesting for Deputy Burke to know that we export a greater value of fish than we import. I have interesting figures here which show that our imports of fish total £616,629 and our exports, including our exports of salmon, eels, shellfish and other fish, £884,963, showing a balance in favour of our fish exports of £268,334, which I regard as very gratifying.

Mr. O'Leary:

Does the figure include the salmon caught by foreigners in this country and exported?

Mr. Bartley:

It does not.

Mr. O. Flanagan:

It is a very gratifying figure and I am very pleased that we are in the position of having such a balance in favour of our exports.

With regard to inland fishing, I do not know if my predecessor holds the views I hold on this matter, but I should like to issue a warning to poachers and to ask the support of angling clubs and even the support to a greater extent of the Garda Síochána in putting an end to poaching. Poaching—this poisoning and gassing of waters and the other means by which poachers work—should be looked upon as a more serious offence than it is. The more serious the view a district justice takes of poaching, the nearer he will be to my heart. Serious steps will have to be taken to end poaching and I trust that angling clubs will be alive to their responsibilities in this respect. I have seen a number of files and I am going to show no leniency whatever in this matter. I am not prepared to make any recommendations to the Department of Justice for mitigation of any fines imposed. I do not see any reason why I should, and I hope that district justices and others in authority will look on it as a very serious matter. The more severe and the heavier the penalties they impose on poachers, the greater the appreciation they will have from me.

I do not propose to add anything further except in praise of the Inland Fishery Trust. In the short time I have been associated with this Department, I have been given a very good account of their work. I can assure them that they will have my full support and co-operation. I should like again to express thanks to the E.S.B. and to the Land Commission for their co-operative spirit, because without their assistance the progress that has so far been achieved would not have been possible. I would like also to thank those who have made donations in that respect to the Fishery Trust.

I do apologise to Deputies for not having a fuller and a more accurate grasp of the proceedings of this section of the Department, but I hope by the time I am presenting my next Estimate that I will be more familiar with the activities of this section; and I am sure by the time I am presenting my fifth Estimate I will be fully conversant with their activities.

Mr. Bartley:

Might I ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question? I have made due observation myself of the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary has just taken over office and therefore could not be expected to know a great many details about it. For that reason, I take exception to a statement made by Deputy Palmer. He took advantage of the Parliamentary Secretary's lack of information—and I am sure he has got the information from the officers since this statement was made—and said that a fisherman could not get a boat in 1948 unless he put down 50 per cent. of the cost as a deposit. Would the Parliamentary Secretary now put it on record whether, in fact, that was the position or not?

Mr. O. Flanagan:

The Parliamentary Secretary was not in office in 1948.

Mr. Palmer:

I want it on record myself, because I know the facts.

Mr. Bartley:

The rules of the association provided for a deposit of 20 per cent., which was reduced to 10 per cent., and that was not changed. What Deputy Palmer stated was a palpable untruth.

Mr. M.P. Murphy:

You spoke a few untruths yourself.

Mr. Palmer:

The facts as stated by me are correct.

Mr. Bartley:

It is not a fact. Fifty per cent. is not a fact.

Vote put and agreed to.