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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1954

Vol. 146 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £18,190 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach (No. 16 of 1924; No. 40 of 1937; No. 38 of 1938; and No. 24 of 1947).

The total provision in respect of the last financial year was £28,440. This year's Estimate, therefore, shows a net decrease of £1,050. Most Deputies are aware that the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate affords an opportunity for discussion on and consideration of Government policy in action during the previous year and consideration of how that policy may be expected to operate during the course of the succeeding year.

I think it will be obvious to Deputies that, in existing circumstances, it would not be either proper or expedient for me to deal in any great detail with the policy of the previous Administion. That policy has been subjected to considerable discussion over the past few years and to a detailed examination and criticism during the recent general election.

In the year 1950, when I was head of the Government, I inaugurated a practice in connection with the moving of this Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department by which I made an economic survey of the results of the Government's policy during the preceding year. I do not think I should be expected now—nor do I think Deputies would expect it of me—to give a detailed economic survey of the policy of the last Administration or even a survey of the policy of the present Government. I hope, however, to resume next year the practice which I inaugurated in the year 1950 and, in order that Deputies may be facilitated in assessing the statistical background to the annual review of Government policy and its results, I have requested the Director of the Central Statistics Office to endeavour to have the Statistical Survey published some weeks before the date on which the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate will be taken.

I do not intend to give any general outline of Government policy or to review the economic background of the last financial year or to indicate economic trends for the future. I intend to restrict myself to a very brief outline of some of the main aspects of the present economic position. From time to time it has fallen to my lot to direct public attention to what I conceived to be one of the main obstacles to economic recovery, and that was the lack of public confidence in the capacity of the Government to devise and put into operation its policy. There was a feeling of insecurity during, perhaps, I might say, the last six years, a feeling that Governments were unstable, a feeling that there would be political changes, and a feeling that the Government had not the time or the opportunity to plan on a long-term basis so as to secure effective financial and economic results from its financial and economic policy.

I think I am entitled to say that, in present circumstances, public confidence has been restored and that there is a feeling that there is no longer political instability or governmental insecurity. We have emerged from the recent general election with a clear mandate from the people and we have in this House the strength of a clear and strong and stable majority. I feel that people now are going about their affairs and conducting their businesses free at last from the worry of political insecurity and in the knowledge that a Government has been formed that has strength in this House and strength derived from the mandate of the people to carry on its policy, and that that Government has been given time to examine the position, to consider the economic facts, the economic trends and the financial difficulties and to put into operation its policies on a long-term basis.

We have no illusions about the difficulties confronting us or the nature of the tasks to which we have put our hands, but we do feel that we have now been given strength and stability and that the people have given us time within which to consider the position and to put into operation our policies and to devise them on a long-term basis. We appreciate the manner in which the public have received our advent to office and we feel that the public have shown by their attitude that they understand the serious nature of the problems confronting the Government and the difficulties they have to overcome.

I think it is proper that in this connection I should refer to the statement recently made, the helpful and responsible statement recently made, on behalf of the largest trade union in this country to the effect that in existing circumstances its members would not press for wage increases. For the success of our policy we require time and, above all, we require the co-operation of every section of the community. We feel that we will get that to a large extent and we feel that the statement I have referred to is an indication of the strength of the support and co-operation we will get from the public as a whole.

I have stated that the outline I propose to give this evening will be short and will be confined to two or three main aspects of the economic position. Normally national income statistics would provide a natural starting-off place for such an outline as I propose to give, but, unfortunately, it will be some weeks before the figures of national income for the year 1953 will be available. However, the indications and the material at our disposal at the moment show that in the year 1953 the national income was of the order of £420,000,000 to £425,000,000, as compared with an unadjusted figure of £404,000,000 for the year 1952.

Most of the increase in national income during the last year reflected increases in price, and it is probable that in real terms the national income did not increase or increased only to a negligible extent. Probably one of the reasons for the failure of the national income to expand was that while gross agricultural output increased net agricultural output showed a very slight fall. That was due to the fact that agricultural input increased and this increased input, to the extent that it took the form of fertilisers and lime, was, of course, a wise investment for the future and in accordance with the policy that we advocated and put into action during the years 1948-1951; if maintained, it should help to raise agricultural output and real national income in coming years. In this respect, we have lagged far behind other Western European countries which, since 1948, have increased their real national income in some cases by as much as 50 per cent., compared with a moderate increase of one-sixth in our case. We have a stationary population and a virtually stationary real national income; it is difficult to disentangle cause and effect, but it is obvious that the deadlock must be broken before any significant progress can be achieved. We believe that we have a policy that can break and will break that deadlock, a policy based on the wise investment of capital, and I insist in this very brief survey on the necessity for increasing the real amount of national income because that objective forms the basis of our entire policy of reducing taxation and of increasing the real incomes of the people. By increasing real national income we can secure what we secured before, increased revenues from the same or lesser taxation.

The two main components of national income are agricultural and industrial production. In 1953 the volume of gross agricultural output increased by some 3 per cent., a small but welcome expansion, and that expansion is further evidence of the success of the policy inaugurated in 1948. The volume of gross agricultural output is now about 6 per cent. above the pre-war level. Any tendency to self-satisfaction on this score must be tempered by the realisation that the general level of agricultural output in Western Europe is 20 per cent. greater than pre-war while in individual countries the percentage increase is much greater. This Government is convinced that there is considerable scope for further increases in this country, and one of our major tasks will be to help the farmers to secure these increases.

One of the ways in which Governments can help farmers to increase agricultural output is by guaranteeing prices, and, particularly in relation to wheat policy, an indication has been given in the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture in the last few days by the Minister for Agriculture of our policy in that regard. But that such a course is not without danger is well exemplified by what is happening in this case of Irish wheat. The area under wheat this year is estimated very approximately at 460,000 acres. Yields per acre have been increasing substantially in recent years, but, even discounting any further increase this year, it is estimated that 460,000 acres will in a normal year supply us with up to 90 per cent. of our wheat requirements, a much higher percentage than ever before.

Dried Irish wheat costs up to £10 a ton more than foreign wheat, and the differential is likely to increase rather than decrease since the tendency is for the price of imported wheat to fall. The total annual excess cost on the basis of 460,000 acres is in the neighbourhood of £4,000,000. This is the cost to the country of a native wheat policy based on the present guaranteed prices. The high acreage achieved this year gives rise to other problems, as, for example, the handling, drying and storage of the crop, the suitability of a grist containing 90 per cent. Irish wheat, and the question of our obligations under the International Wheat Agreement. A point worth stressing is the fact that in the main it is the large farmers and the people who have taken conacre who have obtained the greatest benefits from the high profits which can be made from Irish wheat. In many cases these high profits have been made by tearing the heart from the land by a policy of quick cash returns. I fully realise that this is a difficult and controversial subject, and I do not wish the Dáil to draw any false conclusions from my reference to the matter. It is well, however, that we should realise the problems created by the present policy. These problems will not be solved by ignoring them.

The problems which face us in the industrial sector are less complex though not necessarily less difficult. Here, too, production has increased, but all that was done in 1953 was to recover the ground lost in 1952. Unless industrial production constantly expands no economic progress takes place—in fact, during every recorded peace-time year except 1952 statistics show such increases in this country. It is, therefore, merely in accordance with previous experience that the production of transportable industrial goods should show the maintenance of such an upward tendency.

Taking the two years 1952 and 1953 together the rate of progress is the lowest recorded for any two years since the war; and so, while it is comforting to know that industrial production is increasing, it is all too plain that considerable further progress will have to be made if the ratio of industrial employment to the total persons at work is to be increased from our abnormally low figure of 20 per cent. to the average Western European figure of over 30 per cent. Progress along these lines and the maintenance of a prosperous agriculture are our only hopes of curing the running sores of emigration, unemployment and under-employment.

Since October last, there has been some improvement in unemployment. Nevertheless, unemployment is still at a disturbingly high level. In the year 1953 almost one out of every ten insured persons was out of work. Making all allowances for the extent to which the live register includes persons unemployable or temporarily unemployed, the fact remains that the unemployment percentage is far too high. While it is perhaps dangerous to oversimplify, and while it is necessary to substitute for the policy of work merely for work's sake a policy of wealth creation, it is nevertheless true to state that the figures of unemployment taken in conjunction with emigration serve as a measure of the success or failure of economic policy in this country. I can assure Deputies, the House in general, and the country as a whole that the unemployment problem is very much in the mind of the Government, and that our constant object will be to work towards a solution of the problem both by encouraging private enterprise and by implementing a programme of productive State capital investment.

In recent months references have been made to the disimprovement which is taking place in our external trade. This first became noticeable towards the end of last year but has been accentuated in the opening months of this year. The trade statistics for the first five months of this year show that the import excess was almost £6,000,000 greater than in the corresponding period last year. Several factors have contributed to this result; the large stocks built up following the outbreak of war in Korea have been exhausted, and in addition, the revival of industrial production after the collapse in the year 1952 required an increasing flow of imported raw materials and semi-finished goods. The substantial reduction in import prices from their post-Korean peak has come to an end, and the tendency is for import prices to be very slightly higher than last year. Factors which caused a substantial but temporary increase in the export of certain goods are no longer operative.

In 1952 and 1953 the balance of payment deficits were small and easily financed. It is clear that unless present trends are reversed the deficit this year will be substantially greater. The increase in the balance of payments deficit must be considered against the background of all the causal factors, not the least of which in the circumstances of this country is the extent to which the increased deficit is accompanied by a corresponding increase in the rate of domestic capital formation. It is unfortunately one of the defects of our statistical machinery—nor are we alone in this— that information regarding gross capital formation does not become available until some time after the year to which the information relates. Fortunately, at this stage, the import excess has by no means reached unmanageable proportions, and, while I am not to be taken as assuming the mantle of a prophet in this hazardous field, may I venture the opinion that we are not likely to be faced with any crisis before the end of the year? Again, as I said in 1951, our balance of payments situation is a problem; it is not a crisis.

The ordinary citizen may find the balance of payments a somewhat abstruse concept. He is more interested in matters which affect him immediately and directly, such as the price of consumer goods. We have heard a good deal of talk in recent months about the stabilisation of the consumer price index, but the index has been stabilised at too high a level for people's incomes. The Government are committed to reducing the cost of living in relation to people's incomes, and this result can be achieved either by reducing prices, or, while maintaining prices, by increasing incomes. Not the least of the benefits which would result would be the establishment of a firm and lasting base for the revival of personal savings. It is only when prices are stabilised in relation to incomes that people will really respond to a savings campaign. Expressed as a percentage of national income, savings are far too low and substantially below the level which can and must be reached, if economic progress is to be achieved.

This is not an academic matter or a question of thrift for thrift's sake. It is agreed on all sides that only by increasing productive investment can we hope to break the deadlock of a stationary population, high unemployment and emigration. While we can draw, in part, on our external assets to finance the increased investment, such a course is dangerous, unless it is supported by a high level of savings which alone can afford a firm and lasting basis for increased capital formation. The Government realise that mere exhortations to save are not enough and they intend to take energetic steps of a practical nature to achieve increased savings at all levels, so that the country may be in a position to finance that policy of wealth creation which alone can provide an expanding economy and really profitable employment for our people.

As I emphasised at the outset, our aim is and must be to increase real national income, to stabilise prices in relation to incomes, to reduce the burden of taxation, to provide increased incentives to save. It will be the Government's aim to ensure that the necessary proportion of the increased investment will be taken by private enterprise. These are the problems which must and will be faced and solved in the coming years.

Mr. de Valera:

I was rather amused in listening to the Taoiseach's statement with regard to the uncertainty which was abroad for some years and which affected, in his view apparently, development here. I think he is projecting into the minds of the outside community, the commercial and industrial community, preoccupations and ideas of his own. It is natural enough that the head of a Government and also the leader of an Opposition should be rather disturbed by uncertainties such as a small majority in the House, but I do not think there was abroad during the past six years any feeling of instability of Government which would have affected either industrial effort or agricultural effort. There was a world situation abroad which did have consequences. The Korean war had consequences and the slump after it had consequences, but what happened here followed a pattern very much the same as that in other countries, as is proved by the statistics of these countries.

I think, therefore, there is nothing in the point the Taoiseach has made with regard to political instability here. He is undoubtedly in a much better position from a purely political point of view than he was on the former occasion. He will have fewer preoccupations about having a constant majority than he would have had if as was the case at one period he had only a small majority of three or four, in the same way as we had. I might remark in passing that it is very extraordinary that, when the previous Coalition Government were supported by three or four people, these people were admirable, but when the same people supported us, there were hardly any words could be got to indicate how detestable they should be regarded by the community. I pass then from this point with regard to political instability. The position is that the Government, the Coalition, if they are able to get some adjustment of their divergent views, have a majority which will relieve the Taoiseach and members of the Government from anxiety with regard to putting any policy upon which they may be agreed into operation.

Coming now to the general background of the economic situation here the position is that there was some years ago a situation with what might be called artificial prosperity—created by the Korean war in the 1950-51. period. Then there was a depression and if it were shown on a graph the curve would show the depression that existed in 1952 or so, when we happened to be the Government in office just as there was an artificial boom when the present Taoiseach was previously in office. From that slough, the bottom of that depression there was in 1953 a very definite rise, a rise which was shown in a variety of ways which I have already pointed out in a statement I made when the present Government was being constituted. It revealed itself in an increase in the real national income, which real national income was depressed in the last two years during which the Coalition were formerly in office. It showed a definite increase in that year and so far as I know all the indications were that that increase would be continued into the year 1953.

As the Taoiseach has pointed out we have not yet got the figures for the national income for 1953 and, therefore, we are not able to state definitely that the real national income continued to increase in that year. I would be greatly surprised if what the Taoiseach has foreshadowed should actually be the fact, viz., that the real national income should begin to level off again. It seemed to me that the indications were that it would continue to increase. The Taoiseach has indicated that the cause for his conclusion was that the net increase in agricultural output has not corresponded with the gross increase.

Everybody here will agree with the Taoiseach that it is desirable that the national income should show an increase in real terms and that everything we can do to bring that result about should be done by everybody who is interested in the welfare of the country. The Taoiseach, apparently, has come to the conclusion to which I came, that the chief hope of that is by increasing our agricultural output. There is no doubt that our agricultural output compared with that of other countries is exceptionally low. An examination shows that the way to improve the situation would be to increase the amount of tillage and give to the soil generally the lime and fertilisers it requires. A good deal of progress had been made in that direction and, as a Government, we were confident that the steps taken were successful up to the point at which we were leaving. There was a definite prospect that if the methods that had been instituted were continued with vigour they would give very considerable results in coming years. The Government can be assured that everything it can do to stimulate agriculture and to bring about an increase in agricultural output will be welcomed from this side of the House and that everything we can do to help in that direction will be done.

The Taoiseach has touched upon the difficulty that follows from the policy of guaranteed agricultural prices. He indicates that this year something like 90 per cent. of our wheat requirements will be home-grown; I did not get quite as high a figure as that from the information supplied to me. That that does constitute a problem we were fully aware. Even with the lesser percentage which I understood was likely to result it was constituting a problem and we were facing it by having a definite policy in that regard. We felt we should aim at having at least two-thirds of our wheat requirements produced here. There would be a certain amount of fluctuation upwards and downwards from that but that would roughly be the aim which would best serve the national interest.

I feel certain the Government will come to a similar conclusion. The optimum amount of Irish wheat in grist, and so on, was considered in arriving at our conclusion and I doubt very much if the present Government in considering the matter will come to a conclusion which will be in any material respect different from that to which we came. It is important, however, to secure that at least that percentage will be grown in the country and to realise that anything like a reversion to the results that followed the previous policy of the Coalition Government would be nationally unsound. An increase in tillage is necessary to get the best results from our land and to increase our agricultural output, and that must constantly be kept in mind.

With regard to industry I am glad to think that there is a very different outlook on the part of some of the Parties in the Coalition from that which obtained when I stood in these benches first. A very definite change has taken place and now it is fully realised that there is no essential conflict between manufacturing industries and agriculture or between our town and our rural populations, that fundamentally, each benefits by the prosperity of the other and that by developing our manufacturing industries we are, in fact, providing in the first place a secure home market—the securest market we can have—for the farmer, and providing also for his sons, for the rural population in general, a source of employment. An increase in employment in industry indicates the degree to which emigration is lessened because there is hardly a doubt that the change in the rural population would have taken place in any case and that if these people did not come from rural areas to our cities they would have gone to cities abroad.

Our aim ought to be to maintain as far as possible the rural population. I agree with some of the statements that were made from the Labour Benches recently to the effect that every effort should be made to bring to smaller towns and villages suitable industries. I know our Minister for Industry and Commerce did everything in his time that he could to induce private enterprise to go out into the country areas; there was no special encouragement given from the Government side to those who were establishing industries in the neighbourhood of Dublin.

As far as the smaller cities are concerned our aim was to enable them to be built up so as to be much greater than they are in comparison with the capital city.

We are also agreed that the tariff protection for our industries, which was constantly under review, is to be maintained. I do not think that those who are engaged in industries in the country need have any fear as regards that policy being continued. When we were in office we pointed out that in future tariffs would naturally have to be kept under review. I was asked a question during the election period as to what our attitude was and I indicated, in terms such as I am using now, that we regarded protection as necessary but that it should, of course, be kept under review so that it would be most effective in protecting our industries and at the same time ensure efficiency so that the goods would be produced as cheaply as possible, thus enabling the consumer to purchase them at reasonable prices.

With regard to the problem of the balance of payments, I think I pointed out when I was on the other side, as the Taoiseach has pointed out now, that a change was taking place and that, whilst in the last two years the balance of payments was something about £9,000,000 each year and was within manageable dimensions, this year it seemed to be changing and seemed to be going up fairly rapidly. I did not think—nor do I think statistics indicate—that there is any danger of its getting unmanageable this year; but I would not agree with the Taoiseach in saying that when we had reached £61.6 millions or practically the £62,000,000 we had not reached a stage which might not unfairly be called a critical situation. The words "crisis" and "critical" and "alarming" have been used, but each one of us might not use these words in precisely the same sense. Certainly, if we were to go back again to anything like the figure of £60,000,000, I think we would regard it as very, very critical. The test would be that in two or three years of such deficits we would have exhausted our net external reserves—a most serious situation.

When I was in office I was not able to get anything like a figure for what should be regarded as a sound reserve, the sound reserve that we would be particularly anxious about maintaining and the figure which would be such that if it were not maintained we would regard the situation as dangerous. I think that about £120,000,000 is regarded as our present net reserves. If you get a deficit in our international balance of payments that would exhaust that reserve in anything less than a decade, I think you are in a situation which will have to be most carefully watched. This year if it goes up to £20,000,000, as might be possible, that means only six years; if you had that figure for six years; you would exhaust these reserves.

One of our troubles has been that these external assets, these external reserves or net reserves, have been built up during the war years. I think they were mainly built up during the First and Second World Wars. In those years we were not able to get in the goods that we had been getting in, there was forced abstention on our part; and as a result these external assets were built up. In normal times it will not be easy to restore these assets if they are once lost. These assets are essential. Every country tries to maintain a certain reserve in external assets. If by the deficit in our payments we exhaust these reserves in a few years, we become a debtor nation fundamentally and we will not be able to restore our creditor position easily again. Therefore, it is desirable that we should watch our reserves very carefully.

As the Taoiseach pointed out, these reserves will be affected by our policy of capital formation. Common sense would suggest—and I am sure there is agreement about it—that we ought to try to put capital into productive enterprises. Undoubtedly, we will have to put a certain amount of capital into amenity projects, but we must be careful that there is a proper balance between the amount put into amenity projects and that put into productive enterprises. If we can put our capital into productive enterprises we are on the safe road, but if we put it into amenity projects mainly the likelihood is that we will exhaust our capital resources, unless we are able to get sufficient home savings to meet the bill. That was one of the principal economic weaknesses during the period in which we had this very large international deficit of payments. At the same time, the savings were nil. In fact, I think there was to a certain extent a dissaving; in other words, we were consuming more than we were producing. Most people will agree that if we are to have a capital development here we ought to try to provide to the utmost extent for our capital development by equivalent current savings. If we are able to do that we will be in a position in which we will not necessarily have to draw on our external reserves. But that is not going to be easy.

Whilst we can all agree with the Taoiseach and with the Government— I expect that the Taoiseach has given a general indication of Government outlook—on the aims that we have in mind, ultimately it is the question of means that matters. It is right to have the proper outlook but everything depends on the means that are to be taken. That is where we differ. Fundamentally we have a difference with the Government because they have suggested programmes which in our opinion are not compatible. I know that if we press them now on these points they will have the plausible and ready excuse that they have not yet had time to assess the situation. During the election campaign, however, they spoke not as people completely outside but as people who had experience of Government and who were supposed to know what the position was and did in fact know what the position was. They suggested that it was only a question of their changing from this side of the House to the other and that everything was going to be changed overnight. You were going to have less taxation—which, of course, everybody would like—and at the same time increased benefits, more subsidies and other things. It is on the incompatibility of that type of programme that we differ. We differ, therefore, not in the ultimate aims, those objects people ought to have in mind who are interested in the welfare of the country, but in the steps, the methods, that are to be taken to achieve those aims.

This question of subsidies arises. If you are to decrease prices of essential goods by means of subsidies, the money for the subsidies has to be found and the only way to find it is through taxation, through the revenue that would be got from taxation. It has been suggested by those opposite that in certain circumstances the same rates of taxation will yield a higher amount. It remains to be seen whether these circumstances will arise or be brought about. It would look as if we are going to provide this year nearly £10,000,000 in subsidies. There was £7.7 millions before we brought in the Budget and added £900,000 to that, making roughly £8.6 millions.

Now the butter subsidy, I think, is £1,250,000. That is, £9.8 millions or so, not very far off the £10,000,000 that is being provided this year. Is it not quite obvious that, if you did not provide these subsidies—the famous £10,000,000 is coming up again—we would need £10,000,000 less in taxation? The question will naturally arise for anybody who is anxious about producing the best results in this country: is that the best way? Is it better to put £10,000,000 on taxation to provide the subsidies? It is a nice question. From the point of view of the politician it perhaps looks all right. You appear to be lowering the price of bread and lowering the price of butter. You are giving it to everybody and you are taking it from everybody. The only point that can be made in connection with it is, are you taking it in the same proportions? If you try to examine and see where exactly the benefit lies, it is not easy to find the dividing line and find whether, in fact, the poorer sections of the community are being benefited.

A line opposite to that which they are taking at present was taken by the Labour Party when we first introduced subsidies on a large scale to get over what we thought at the time was only a temporary situation. The Labour Party at that time and the present Government Parties—all of them— went out on the basis that the people had to pay for these through an increased price of tobacco, increased price of drink and so on. My answer, I remember, was that it was better that the money should be spent on the more essential foods, bread and butter, but I was met by the Labour Party at that time who said that I did not regard a pint for a worker or a pipe of tobacco as necessary. They are gone to the opposite side now and probably the truth may lie in between. However, you cannot have it both ways.

The Taoiseach stated certain principles, principles in general to which I had no objection. I was wondering why they were not published generally. It is rather remarkable that they should have been completely omitted from the Press that was supporting the Taoiseach. One of these principles was that it was very important to get the community to understand that promises of benefits were promises by politicians to take the people's money from them and spend it for them. I do not know whether that principle will be acted upon by the Taoiseach. In some of the statements that were made when the Coalition Parties came together it would seem that that was conveniently forgotten and that these benefits were supposed to be things which would be conferred by the bounty of the Government on the community without cost to the community. In fact, that, at the same time as these benefits were being conferred, you would have reduced rates of taxation. Under very exceptional circumstances that could happen but I do not think that one can normally plan on the basis that that will happen. I think you will not have another Korean boom to depend on and you will not have a convenient sum available in Marshall Aid, so that it seems to me, in regard to the problems confronting the Government in dealing with these matters, the basic facts are not the same as they were in the year 1950-51.

As far as the Taoiseach's statement is concerned, I have said all I want to say. We are not opposing any of the aims but we have more than reason to doubt the efficacy of the methods which are indicated by the Coalition programme. We are content to wait and see. We have pointed out and the Government by their action have pointed out very effectively that it was not a question of changing from this side of the House over to the other side and it was not a question of doing these things overnight. The Government have now definitely demonstrated that fact to the country although there was during the election a definite suggestion in the propaganda of the various Parties that these changes would come about at once.

Who said that?

Mr. de Valera:

Some of the statements were quoted here. Deputy Dunne, for instance. We had quite a number. They were of the same type as Deputy Morrissey's statement on a couple of occasions on this side of the House when he said that within 24 hours anybody who wanted to work could be put at work. It was quite a different story, however, when they got into office. Of course, if the people are wise enough completely to discount statements of that sort, well and good. There were at least close on 600,000 of the voters who, evidently, did not believe them. How many of the others did believe is a matter that we have to wait and see. I say sincerely that, from the country's point of view, we will be glad if it is possible to burn the candle at both ends and make it grow longer in the burning. That is what, it seems to me, is suggested by the programme that was put forward, as far as practical details are concerned. If this conjuring feat can be done and it becomes more than a conjuring trick, if it becomes a reality as far as the community is concerned, we will be very happy about it.

I did not think the Taoiseach would deal in this statement with fundamental matters. I thought he would probably take the line that some of the other Ministers took, that they were such a short time in office that they did not know how things stood and that they would require time to see what was going to happen. I am glad that he did make these fundamental statements, about which we agree. Now it becomes a question of seeing how the means will work towards securing the ends.

Mr. Lemass:

There are a few matters that I think the Taoiseach should deal with. The worst thing that can happen the trade of this country is uncertainty as to Government policy. During the week-end the Minister for Agriculture made a statement regarding what he described as the raw materials of the agricultural industry.

I put down a parliamentary question for him. I did not realise that he had gone to attend a conference in Paris. The statement made by the Minister for Agriculture was vague and uncertain, but it affects the livelihoods of a lot of people. He implied that the Government was going to take taxes, tariffs and quotas off the raw materials of the agricultural industry. Are the Government going to do that or are they not? A statement one way or the other must be made. Every worker employed in factories producing these goods and every firm engaged in these trades are at the moment in a position of uncertainty, and uncertainty is deadly to trade progress.

A couple of Ministers were this week visiting a factory in Newbridge where binder twine, a raw material of the agricultural industry, is made. Is the tariff going to come off binder twine? Various Deputies now sitting behind the Government attacked the idea of a protective tariff on barbed wire and agricultural fencing. Are these tariffs going to be retained? During the course of the recent general election campaign we had a statement from the present Minister for Agriculture regarding agricultural fertilisers which was in part contradicted by the present Taoiseach. Does the statement last Sunday mean that the question of the quota on agricultural fertilisers is under consideration by the Government?

It is important that these questions should be answered and that the people engaged in these trades and the workers employed in the various firms should know precisely where they stand. The worst possible situation is to leave a vague impression abroad that the Government may do something without any definite indication of what that something may be. Every trader in this country who may carry a stock of barbed wire, binder twine or some other agricultural raw material is debating whether the statement of the Minister for Agriculture means that the conditions of trade affecting these goods are to change and the desirability of reducing or minimising their stocks. That is inevitably the consequence of uncertainty, and it should be the concern of the Government to remove that uncertainty quickly.

The Taoiseach spoke about the importance of increasing agricultural production. One Parliamentary Secretary has on more than one occasion since the change of Government, stated that the previous Government intended to put an export tax on cattle. That statement, made by a Parliamentary Secretary subsequent to the change of Government, implies a discovery from official records of an intention on the part of the previous Government to charge an export tax on cattle. The statement is not true. I know that the present Minister for Lands made that statement on many occasions during the election campaign. It was just his usual election nonsense. I will say this much for him, that he has not repeated it as far as I know since he became a Minister but the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture made the statement more than once and has endeavoured to convey the impression that there was definite information behind it. The statement is not true. There is not the slightest shadow of foundation for the statement but its repetition in that way implies it is something that might happen in the foreseeable future with another political change.

Clearly any acceptance of that view by a large section of producers in the country could even to-day affect the prospects of securing that expansion of agricultural production which is required. There is an obligation on the Taoiseach to discipline his Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries to see that they do not make any reckless and untrue statements of that kind, particularly statements that may be damaging to the trade prospects of particular firms and particular industries.

He did not say anything about mousetraps

Mr. Lemass:

Not that I know of unless you would regard a mousetrap as an agricultural implement. He does not know what he is talking about and nobody knows what he is talking about. The part of the Taoiseach's statement I heard was very vague. It may have been written by a lecturer in economic science in National University.

The Deputy did not hear very much of it. He heard only the last few sentences.

Mr. Lemass:

It would be better if he came down to definite indications of what the Government intends to do in specific matters.

Did the Deputy ever hear what G.K. Chesterton said?

Mr. Lemass:

I am prepared to have my education improved.

He said that there was nothing so practical as theory.

Mr. Lemass:

There was nothing so theoretical as the portion of the Taoiseach's speech which I heard.

And, therefore, so practical.

Mr. Lemass:

May I again remind the Taoiseach what we discussed last week! Is there any prospect that the tax on beer, spirits or tobacco will be reduced this year?

Let the Deputy read the leading article in the Irish Times.

Mr. Lemass:

Let us have an answer —either yes or no.

Is the Deputy getting thirsty?

Mr. de Valera:

We are thinking of the 80,000,000 "half ones."

Mr. Lemass:

The Taoiseach during the election campaign gave a very definite indication in regard to the tax on spirits. He argued that by an alteration in the tax on spirits he could get more revenue for the Government. Will that happen?

The Minister for Finance it is true made a statement here which implied that the only change in prices to be expected this year was in the case of butter but on the next week-end the Minister for Industry and Commerce went round the country and made a speech which implied that other reductions in food prices will come in the near future. Is that true or not?

Of course it is true.

Mr. Lemass:

One of the Deputies on the Government side says: "Of course it is," but it is necessary to be definite in these matters. When a Government tries to imply by vague suggestions that things may happen which may mean profits or losses to a multitude of traders, then the conduct of business is bound to be affected. The one thing a Government must do is to be definite and to say nothing until it can be definite in matters of that kind. The Minister for Finance has already good reason to learn the possible consequences of public uncertainty in that regard. The decline in the tax yield from tobacco and beer in the first quarter of this year was due entirely to the statements made by present Ministers during the election campaign, the belief they created that reductions in the taxes on these goods were going to follow a change of Government. If that uncertainty is not removed, then the tax yield will continue to decline with the turnover of these commodities. I think there has to be now or in the near future a very definite and authoritative statement with which all Ministers are agreed in respect of these matters.

The effect of uncertainly will be unemployment—unnecessary unemployment, unnecessary trade depression, and the Government must try to minimise the danger of that by confining its public statements of changes to matters that are already decided. I again ask the Taoiseach to say whether the statement made by the Minister for Agriculture last Sunday regarding taxes and quotas on the raw materials of agriculture means that the Government has taken any decision in regard to these matters? If it has taken any decision, what is the decision and what are the commodities affected? Is there any foundation for the expectation held out by some Ministers of some changes in food prices in the near future and, if so, in respect of what food prices? I strongly urge upon him and his colleagues not to talk about these matters until they have some-things definite.

Did the Deputy believe the price of butter would be reduced?

Mr. Lemass:

On the contrary, I had such tremendous faith in the Deputy's integrity and in his colleagues' guarantee that I expected the price of butter would come down to 2/10 a lb.

The Deputy voted against it.

Deputy Davin is getting a hair restorer now.

There are only two points to which I intend to refer in concluding this debate. One point that I think is deserving of a reply is a point raised by the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy de Valera, and the other is that made by Deputy Lemass. There is only one point emerging from the speech of Deputy de Valera, Leader of the Opposition, which calls for any reply. His speech, which was general in tone and substance, was one with which I could agree in most respects, but in regard to his suggestion that there had been, during the course of the election campaign, something in the nature of a guarantee or promise that everything would be changed overnight, I want to enter here on the records of this House a most emphatic denial. If there was one thing clear and definite during the course of the general election campaign so far as I was concerned it was that I was making no promises.

Mr. de Valera:

That is true for the Taoiseach.

From Ringsend to Castlebar, from Castlebar to O'Connell Street and, again, in Bray and Grey-stones on the night before the by-election in Wicklow, I made that statement: anybody who was voting for me or voting for anybody associated with me was voting on the assurance that I gave that I was making no promises to anybody.

No, but you had the lads by the hasp.

What about the Taoiseach's advertisements?

I listened to Deputy Lemass in hysterical and raucous tones——

Mr. Lemass:

Raucous, no doubt, but not hysterical.

——shouting to the crowd: "Ask him? Ask him? Ask him?" I heard the same repetition in Donnybrook from a meeting held by Deputy MacEntee and the then Deputy Dr. Browne: "Ask him?""What is he going to do about this, that and the other?" What was I going to do about all the things about which I refused to give any assurance whatsoever? At no stage did I, or anybody connected with me, give any promise to anybody in the course of the general election campaign; and I want here and now to nail as utterly untrue the suggestions made during the piece of political buffoonery to which this House was subjected by Deputy Lemass during the debate on the Finance Bill.

What about the £10,000,000?

Everybody knew—I hope that I can say this without any undue self-esteem—that if there was to be a change of Government I would be the unfortunate instrument who would bring about that change. The very fact that that was so was conscious to my mind and apparent in every utterance I made. I was not so anxious to get into that position that I was prepared to make an irresponsible statement. I was prepared to stand upon the strict truth and upon the one solid basis that any Government with which I would be associated would make no promises. I want to make that clear. Deputy Lemass can continue with his political buffoonery this year and for the next four years because everybody who listened to me during the course of the general election campaign knows that what I have stated was the fundamental basis upon which any new Government founded on an association of the various Parties comprising an inter-Party Government would be formed.

Mr. de Valera:

What was the meaning of the promises of the various Parties then?

What promises?

I will not follow the ex-Taoiseach's reflection now on Deputy Lemass's alleged quotations last week. Every speaker in the Fianna Fáil Party throughout the country made an effort to suggest that I, and my colleagues, were promising, if we got into Government, a reduction in taxation, a lowering of the cost of living, the giving of increased benefits and increased social services. We were asked how we would do that. I made it clear to everybody that I was making no promises and I challenge any Deputy to show anything to the contrary.

(Interruptions.)

Order. The Taoiseach should be allowed to continue without these interruptions.

Every candidate of the present Opposition Party was striving to make propaganda out of the statements I made. Not merely would I not allow myself——

On a point of order. The Taoiseach has challenged any of the Opposition——

That is not a point of order. The Taoiseach, concluding.

This is an interruption by a Deputy who is new to this House. I hope that in the process of time the Deputy will learn the courtesies of this House. I refuse to allow Deputy Lemass or any of his back benchers to draw me. His ally, the Irish Times, came to his assistance in an endeavour to put me in difficulties by addressing ten questions to me. I will read a few sentences from that, and only a few. It was the basis of the famous, ill-timed, ill-advised attack through the medium of the Irish Times editorial the day before the actual election. I will quote only a few sentences from these answers:—

"I do not, therefore, propose to repeat the action of our opponents in 1951, when they made specific promises which they subsequently broke. They failed to keep their specific promises to maintain subsidies and not to restore certain taxes. I am prepared to make only one promise—to provide good government to the best of my ability."

There was my statement published by the Irish Times in an effort to put me in political difficulty and secure, so far as they could, that certain votes would not be given to me. I suppose, when people make promises at political meetings, the electorate think they will get benefits. The corollary to that is that if one does not make promises one does oneself political damage. I took that risk, and I took it most deliberately. I took the very definite resolution that in the 12-point programme we made no promise; we merely set out aims.

Why does the Taoiseach say "we"?

I subscribed to one promise in that 12-point programme, namely, to reduce the price of butter. At no stage during the course of the general election campaign did I or my associates——

(Interruptions.)

If that discourteous Deputy cannot in the course of his first few days here control himself——

Mr. Lemass:

A Deputy opposite has described a Deputy on this side of the House as an "eejit".

It is a fairly mild description.

The Chair did not here the remark. If the Chair heard the remark the Deputy would certainly have to withdraw. Such a remark should not be made.

None of us heard the remark.

Mr. Lemass:

It was the "eejit" from Waterford who used it.

At no stage did I at any time say I intended, if elected, to reduce the price of butter. I did, however, have the experience—and this experience was corroborated for me by members of my own Party and by members of the Labour Party subsequently—that I was asked at Ringsend by the women and the children one question, and one question only: "Will you reduce the price of butter?" I was asked that question by the women and the children at every meeting I addressed throughout the country. They asked nothing else but: "Will you reduce the price of butter?" I did not say I would, but I made up my mind that if I were ever in a position to do it, I would do it.

Deputy de Valera referred to the fact that we were suggesting that we could confer benefits out of some bounty of our own and without any cost to the taxpayer. I refer Deputies on the Opposition Benches to the reports of my speeches which are in the possession of Deputy Lemass. They will find there that in speech after speech I said plainly and clearly that no benefits could be given to the people out of some governmental bounty, but must come from the taxpayer. Anybody who voted for me in the election—mark you, a few did vote for me—and for my colleagues knows those were the principles upon which I would, if it became necessary, endeavour to form a Government and carry on Government, and try to repair the almost irreparable damage committed by the last Government. I made no secret of the difficulty of that task and I made no secret of how unnecessary it was that the people should have suffered the hardships they had suffered.

Mr. de Valera

Where is the £10,000,000 now?

The £10,000,000 has been spent.

Mr. de Valera:

How?

When speaking on the Budget of 1952, the amount of taxation which I then said, and now repeat, was unnecessary, was a sum of something between £8,000,000 and £10,000,000. I demonstrated that at the time and it was proved to be true in the course of events.

Mr. de Valera:

It proved to be the opposite.

Two years have elapsed since that Budget was introduced. The same taxes were allowed to continue but expenditure went up by £10,000,000. The Deputy should look at the Book of Estimates and the Book of Expenditure. This additional expenditure of £10,000,000 was covered last year and the year before by the same taxes, which I said were £10,000,000 in excess of the 1952 requirements. That is the answer and the proof.

Mr. de Valera:

It was £2,000,000 short.

You were financing an additional £10,000,000 by the same taxes that you put on two years ago but which were unnecessary at that time. It was necessary in the last two years because you increased expenditure by some £10,000,000.

Deputy Lemass speaks about uncertainty and about the necessity for our giving a clear statement because of uncertainty in trade. The one remarkable feature of recent weeks, since the change of Government, has been the stability and calm in business and in the community generally because of the change of Government. Any uncertainty that has been created has been created by speeches of the type and character that Deputy Lemass has been indulging in in the last few weeks. He has been indulging in the political buffoonery which we have witnessed here and which did him much more damage than it did us in the country. Unfortunately, they tended to do much damage to the people, but I am glad to say that our people have demonstrated that they have reached the stage of political maturity and judgment and are able to assess, at their proper value, speeches of the type which Deputy Lemass has been indulging in for some time past.

Deputy Lemass said, only a short time ago and on many occasions towards the end of 1953, that our international balance of payments problem had been solved. According to Deputy MacEntee, the then Minister for Finance, the outstanding problem that he had to solve was to produce correctives in the Budget of 1952 for the deficit in the balance of payments. It was because of these so-called correctives that were put into that Budget in 1952 by the then Minister for Finance that our people suffered such unnecessary hardships within the last few years. These were supposed to correct the balance of payments crisis that was referred to by Deputy Lemass and by Deputy MacEntee in 1951. Deputy Lemass when on this side ran away from that in the discussion on the White Paper on external trade but Deputy MacEntee stuck to his guns. Deputy Lemass ran away from it and agreed with me. I then said that there was no crisis but a problem.

Deputy MacEntee called it an outstanding problem and said that, because of the deficit in our international balance of payments, it was necessary to introduce the economic correctives that he imposed on the unfortunate people of this country by the Budget of 1952. What did these correctives constitute towards a solution of that problem? Ill-considered action and wrong remedies were devised for a non-existent disease and the country has suffered ever since. Now at the end of all that our people have suffered —the hardship and the austerity— and, notwithstanding what Deputy de Valera has said that hardship and austerity should be necessarily imposed on the people for the purpose of correcting the adverse balance of trade, we now find ourselves in the position this year that we are facing the same problem of an adverse balance of trade though not perhaps of the same magnitude.

In spite of all that has been done, that is the position that we take over after three years of austerity, three years of unnecessarily high taxation to deal with this so-called crisis in our balance of payments. We pointed out at the time that what did happen was going to happen, that our agricultural exports were going to increase and to correct the very situation then so much talked of. We hope to do the same again, to increase agricultural production by our policy on agriculture on our return to office.

As I have said, any uncertainty there was was created, not by any speeches of the Minister for Agriculture, but by speeches of the type that we have listened to from Deputy Lemass trying to create uncertainty about this, that and the other.

Mr. Lemass:

Will the Taoiseach answer the question?

We will deal with the problems in our own way.

Mr. Lemass:

I did not ask the Minister for Agriculture to speak.

We will decide in our own way and in our own time. The truculent remarks of Deputy Lemass are designed for the purpose of creating uncertainty. The Deputy referred to modern electioneering methods. I refer to the words from the circular asking for funds to which Deputy Lemass put his signature before the general election. These modern electioneering methods are the same sort of methods which were adopted by him here to-day suggesting that people were going to lose their jobs. In the short time which was at my disposal when speaking over Radio Éireann during the election campaign I had to waste very valuable minutes repudiating the suggestions made by Deputy Lemass that all those people in fertiliser factories and in industries of various kinds were going to lose their jobs. He was at the same game then as now.

We are here as the result of the general election. That game did not work then and it will not work now. We have a serious job to do and we are here to tackle it seriously. We are here not for the purpose of getting any political kudos or for purposes of our own. We have a job to do. We believe that we have a proper policy and that we are going to succeed.

Question put and agreed to.
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