Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 1954

Vol. 146 No. 11

Adjournment Debate. - Cork City Milk Supply.

Mr. McGrath

At question time to-day I asked the Minister for Agriculture whether in view of his statement of the 1st July, 1954, when replying to the debate on the Estimate for his Department, regarding the Cork milk supply and having regard to the fact that the Cork Corporation had passed a resolution recommending pasteurisation, he will state what action he proposes to take in the matter. The Minister replied:—

"Since my return to office, I have resumed active encouragement of the project promoted during my previous term of office through the Cork Milk Producers' Co-operative Society, Limited, for the pasteurisation of supplies of milk for Cork City. I am glad to say that the society have now informed me that they are making the necessary arrangements for the establishment of pasteurising plant, which I confidently expect will be in operation before the middle of next year. It will then be a matter for the Cork Corporation to implement its intention, of which it decided to give public notice in March, 1952, to request the Minister for Health to make an Order under the Milk and Dairies Act prohibiting the sale of milk other than pasteurised or highest grade milk in the Cork County Borough."

I do not want to make any political propaganda out of this, but in the Minister's reply to the debate last week he tried to put the blame for the condition of the milk in Cork on the corporation and on the county council, and, as he pointed out to me to-day, he said that if the milk supply in Cork was not as good in two years' time as the milk supply in Dublin the fault would lie on those two bodies and, he said, on the Lord Mayor of Cork and the chairman of the county council. The Minister said at column 1053 of Volume 146 of the Official Debates:—

"I must make it clear that I cannot go ahead at my end as expeditiously as I would like unless I have the help of the Lord Mayor of Cork, Deputy McGrath, and of the chairman of the Cork County Council. I can say, however—and it is my duty to say so—that if the Cork milk supply is not as good as the milk supply of the City of Dublin within two years from to-day the fault will lie at the door of the Corporation of Cork City and of the County Council of Cork County."

I know that the Minister for a great many years has been very interested in the supply of milk to Cork City, and that in Volume 129 of the Official Debates at column 989, he made this statement:—

"In regard to the Cork milk suppliers—I tried to cover it up for two years but I will cover it up no longer—in certain respects the position was a scandal. I appealed to the Cork milk suppliers to help me to set right that scandal and not to take their profits at the expense of burying their neighbour's children. I say that the man who definitely knows that tubercular milk is going into his neighbour's house which may fatally infect his neighbour's child is worse than a man who commits murder in cold blood."

He went on to say at column 991:—

"I must say the Cork Corporation, after some persuasion, passed a resolution in regard to pasteurisation, but the Cork County Council was persuaded not to pass it. If I had been returned to office I would have come to Dáil Éireann to seek power to force the Cork County Council in this matter whether they wanted it or not. I was reluctant because I did not want to disclose facts which I did not think ought to be disclosed, but I challenge the Cork milk suppliers now to publish the tests that are in existence of some of the milk that was collected and tested in the Cork distribution area."

The Minister is now returned to office, and what we want to know is, is he going to introduce legislation in this House to compel the county council to pass a resolution in favour of compulsory pasteurisation? He states to-day that he has been promised by the Cork milk suppliers—I think he calls them the Cork Milk Producers' Co-operative Society, Limited, whoever that body is; I do not know, although I know a good number of the producers and they do not seem to be in favour of pasteurisation. I do not know who this body is.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

Are you in favour of pasteurisation?

Mr. McGrath

I am in favour of getting good clean milk for Cork City.

Mr. Dillon

That is not the question I asked the Deputy. Are you in favour of pasteurising the Cork milk supply?

Mr. McGrath

I will reply to you this way—from the reports we have got from our——

Mr. Dillon

The simple answer to it is "yes" or "no".

Mr. McGrath

——from the reports we got from our medical officer and our veterinary officer there is no other course open. I am in favour of it.

Mr. Dillon

Fair enough.

Mr. McGrath

And I have said that before now.

Mr. Dillon

That settles it.

Mr. McGrath

But I did tell the Minister during the debate on his Estimate that there was a great improvement in the milk supply while we had the services of a whole-time veterinary officer in the county council who was inspecting the sources of the milk supplied.

Mr. Dillon

You want the milk supply pasteurised now?

Mr. McGrath

I want a good milk supply, but what I want now from the Minister is this—when he is telling me that this co-operative society of which I know nothing is prepared to pasteurise the milk now without it being made compulsory, are they prepared to go to the expense of setting up this plant: that is if the milk which is being supplied at present will continue to be sold, and that these people are going to take the chance of spending all this capital on a pasteurising plant without getting any guarantee about compulsory pasteurisation coming into force?

As far as the corporation is concerned, he will have no difficulty in getting a decision on that. The corporation passed a resolution long ago and have sent that to the Department of Agriculture as the Minister is aware. They passed that resolution when they received a letter from the Department of Agriculture on the 21st February, 1952, and they sent it to the Department on the 18th March, 1952. I do not know if the Minister is aware or not that the Cork Milk Board area covers a good deal of the suburban area outside the county borough over which the corporation has no control whatsoever. Those producers are supplying inside and outside the city.

What we are troubled about is the Minister's statement, in reply to a supplementary question to-day, that he hoped to have this going early next year. What I want to know is, is he sure that those people will go ahead with this scheme if the county council will not adopt compulsory pasteurisation; and if the county council will not pass it, will the Minister tell us now that he will do as he promises, as I read it there before—will he bring in legislation compelling the county council? The Minister knows that nearly every producer of milk supplies some share of tubercular milk, and I think that if he was really sincere—and he certainly has great knowledge of the Cork milk supply—he would start his scheme for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis in the area which supplies the City of Cork with liquid milk.

Mr. Dillon

They can start it themselves.

Mr. McGrath

You made a statement here on the lines of what your predecessor said, that it was going to start in Limerick.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, but it can in addition be started by any individual farmer. Any individual who wants to join the scheme can do it anywhere if you get him to join it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps we could have less use of "you." Let us have the third person.

Mr. McGrath

Would the Minister not think that the most suitable place in which to start the scheme would be where the lives of the neighbour's children, as he described it, are concerned, where they are being supplied with tubercular milk, and so help to prevent these people from being supplied with infected milk? The Minister says that the man who does that knowingly is worse than a murderer. I remember hearing him, when he was in office before, and his immediate predecessor telling us that they were all interested in the Cork milk supply, but what I should like to know is what are they going to do about it? Is this scheme to go ahead whether the county council agrees with the pasteurisation of milk or not? That is the vital point. If these people are prepared to raise this capital and start this plant to give us properly pasteurised milk, that is all we want. I know the Minister is interested in this, and I do not want him to be put off by people in his Department or even by the county council. All we want is a good supply of milk, and we want to know what steps the Minister proposes to take with regard to it.

Mr. J. Lynch

I hope this question which has been raised so often over the past five or six years will not tend to become a hardy annual.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. J. Lynch

There were some encouraging signs in the Minister's reply to-day in that the co-operative society to which he referred seems to be willing to start this pasteurisation scheme. I know that the Minister is well aware of the defects in the Cork milk supply, but at this stage it would be no harm once again to refer to the report of the Cork City Medical Officer of Health for 1953. At page 77, he refers to the fact that of some 1,660 samples of milk taken there were 4.4 per cent. had a positive tuberculin reaction. I think the Minister was in the House on 3rd December last when his predecessor answered a question and gave figures in respect of 2,339 samples tested in 1952 for the presence of tubercular bacilli. Of these samples, 253 failed to pass the test, so that it would appear that, of the 10,000 gallons of milk being consumed daily in Cork, approximately 10 per cent. contained tubercular bacilli. There can be no doubt that it is a situation that badly needs remedying and the purpose of putting the question on the Order Paper was to clarify the steps the Minister proposes to take because they did not appear to be clear, and, in Cork particularly, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding as to what the proposals are for cleaning up the city's milk supply.

I do not need to go into the background of it. The Minister is only too well aware of the steps taken by his predecessor. He knows that the co-operative society demanded that they be given the sole right to pasteurise milk in Cork if an Order was sought under the Milk and Dairies Act, 1935. I think his predecessor indicated in December last to the society that he was not prepared to do that for more than one reason, one reason being that he thought they would not be in a position to supply 10,000 gallons of pasteurised milk every day every week. During the course of the negotiations, the co-operative society sought credit facilities from the Agricultural Credit Corporation and from the Bank of Ireland, and I think that ultimately the Minister indicated to them that he, through the Dairy Disposal Board, would put up whatever money they wanted, that they would erect and operate the plant and if the society cared to step in at a later stage they would get the plant at whatever it had cost the Dairy Disposal Board.

Mr. Dillon

Who proposed that? I did.

Mr. J. Lynch

Yes. I am not taking any credit from the Minister. I have just said he did so. At all events, it is with the utmost goodwill that the question is raised and with a sense of deep concern for the milk supply in Cork.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, God forgive the pair of you!

Mr. J. Lynch

As consumers of milk in Cork, we know well the defects there are in the milk supply.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister may laugh but we are sincere.

Mr. Dillon

God forgive you.

Mr. J. Lynch

We have been receiving complaints weekly about milk going sour, about milk which is bought in the morning, particularly in summertime, often being unfit for use, particularly by children and infants, in the afternoon, and it is to obviate that position that we ask the Minister to take whatever steps are open to him to ensure a clean milk supply for Cork.

I am inclined to agree that pasteurisation would be the best solution, but I know that there is some objection locally to pasteurised milk, because, in periods of short supply, when the milk suppliers were obliged to go to University College, Cork, for extra supplies, in some instances, they found their customers unwilling to accept the pasteurised milk. There is that problem, but whether it is Grade A or pasteurised milk, or both, we hope the Minister's forecast will come true that by next year we will have a pasteurisation plant in Cork. In the meantime, we ask the Minister whether a reversion, particularly during the summer, to the former system of twice daily deliveries could be brought about. It was suspended largely for reasons of the difficulty of suppliers getting the necessary petrol to make deliveries and we ask the Minister to consider that aspect if he finds that there may be some undue delay in bringing pasteurisation into operation.

Mr. Dillon

I am very slow to misjudge my fellowman but I am very nearly sure, as I am that there is an eye in a goat, that the Deputies who have raised this matter on the Adjournment have done it for the sole purpose of creating sufficent apprehension in the City of Cork as will frustrate the plans I have made to get the Cork milk supply pasteurised. They are willing to wound; they are afraid to strike. They will not say ‘yes' and they will not say ‘no', but they are going to frustrate my endeavour to get the Cork milk supply pasteurised. I want to make this clear: nobody can stop the Cork milk supply being pasteurised except the Lord Mayor of Cork and the chairman of the Cork County Council. That is as clear as crystal, but the Cork Corporation has published a notice of their intention to pass a resolution asking the Minister for Health to make the appropriate Order and if the Cork Corporation does not pass the resolution, the Minister for Health cannot make the necessary Order. Is the Cork Corporation going to give effect to the undertaking which they have given in their public notice of the intention to request the Minister for Health to make the order? The sooner the Cork Corporation does that the better; and let us not dance around the mulberry bush.

Mr. McGrath

It will be done if the pasteurised supplies are available.

Mr. Dillon

Do not try to bulldoze me. You have had 20 minutes and I have only ten. I intend to fix responsibility clearly and plainly on the Lord Mayor of Cork and the corporation to determine whether the people of Cork will get a clean milk supply or not. If they will do their part I will do mine and there will be pasteurised milk for everybody within the municipal area controlled by the Cork Corporation if they pass the necessary resolution in time.

In regard to the Cork County Council, I cannot make the Cork County Council pass that resolution, but if I cannot make them do it I will do what Deputy Thomas Walsh prevented Deputy Dr. James Ryan from doing last year and that was getting the necessary legislative powers to amend Section 33 of the Milk and Dairies Act, 1935, in time to make the Order. If you want the details of that I will read the letters out of this file from Deputy Dr. Ryan to Deputy Walsh deploring the fact that Deputy Walsh was withdrawing from the position of requiring suppliers of milk to Cork City to pasteurise their milk and saying that if he was not prepared to press forward with the scheme, then he, Deputy Dr. Ryan, would feel doubly justified in coming to Dáil Éireann for the necessary amendment of the Milk and Dairies Act, 1935, to force the local authorities in Cork to do what was necessary in order to get the milk supply of Cork City pasteurised. I believe, and I will continue to believe, unless evidence is produced to the contrary, that the Cork Corporation which covers two-thirds of what is commonly called the City of Cork will make good on their declared intention to make the necessary request to the Minister for Health compulsorily to pasteurise the milk supply of Cork City or in that part for which they have responsibility. On foot of that guarantee I guarantee that the co-operative societies setting up a pasteurisation plant in Cork will be given full scope to establish themselves and on that guarantee they are prepared to go ahead.

Will the Deputies opposite me approach the Cork County Council and urge them to do in respect of the remainder of the City of Cork what Cork Corporation is going to do for the part of Cork City for which they are responsible? The Deputies representing Cork City could go to their colleagues on the Cork County Council——

Mr. McGrath

And to your colleagues.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, I will go to them, and I will say in public that every councillor of the Cork County Council has a duty to collaborate in making the request upon the Minister for Health to make the necessary Order under Section 33 of the Act in order to ensure that we can get for the people of Cork a milk supply fit for their children to consume. Every day that that is delayed by the county council the men of that county council must answer to the parents of the children who die as a result of their failure to make that request. As certain as we are in these rooms children will die in Cork City as a result of contaminated milk if we do not take steps forthwith to remedy the matter. The county council and the Cork Corporation have a duty——

Mr. J. Lynch

Does the Minister suggest we are not sincere?

Mr. Dillon

I am gravely apprehensive that this matter was raised in this form for the purpose of creating sufficient perturbation in the minds of those who put their hands to establishing a pasteurisation plant that something may go wrong between this and the time they set up and that they could not proceed with pasteurisation. Deputy McGrath will appreciate that men who invest such a large sum of money would want some enduring guarantee and those men are accepting the guarantee I am giving.

Mr. McGrath

The people who suggested this before objected to going ahead unless they got compulsory pasteurisation.

Mr. Dillon

The men concerned in this enterprise have undertaken to put up the pasteurisation plant; they have got the capital to do it and they are going ahead on the guarantee that pasteurisation will be there or tuberculin tested milk is there the day when they are starting.

Mr. McGrath

There is no need to bother about the county council at all.

Mr. Dillon

I have to look to the Cork County Council to do as much as the Cork Corporation have promised to do. I have got no promise from the Cork County Council but I can say to Deputy McGrath and Deputy Lynch that it is their duty to bring all the pressure they can to bear on the Cork County Council to adopt the same action as that promised by the Cork Corporation. If Deputy McGrath thinks that all that is necessary to be done has been done by the Cork Corporation he is under a misapprehension. After the public statement of what they intend to do, I am telling him now that there is another step which the Cork Corporation has to take and that is to make the formal request.

Mr. McGrath

Does the Minister not know they cannot do that until they are satisfied pasteurised milk will be available in that area?

Mr. Dillon

I believe they can take the steps of requesting the Minister for Health to make the necessary Order if they think steps are necessary. It may be a matter of agreement between the Minister for Health and themselves as to when the steps are necessary. It would, I believe, be a good thing to take the next step since it might be a good example for the Cork County Council. The sooner we can get the county council to take a similar step the sooner we can have the whole area covered by the Order. I do not know whether the Deputy knows or not, if Cork County Council does not take that step I believe it is the intention to get legislative powers from this House to enable the Minister for Health to make an Order of this character for any area where it is urgently necessary, whether the local authority asks him or not. As far as I am concerned, I would much sooner have this thing done at the request of the two local authorities whose jurisdiction extends over what is commonly known as the City of Cork. Anything they can do to expedite that preliminary measure will be warmly welcomed by me.

Mr. McGrath

Does the Minister still believe that the Cork Corporation did not do everything they could reasonably be expected to do?

Mr. Dillon

I am not talking about "reasonably expected". There was not a word in my answer to suggest any criticism of the Cork Corporation.

Mr. McGrath

There was indeed, in your reply last week.

Mr. Dillon

I am talking about the answer I gave the Deputy to-day. The Deputy went on to say the Cork Corporation had done everything. I do not say they had any bad intention but the fact is they have not done everything. They have given notice of their intention to do everything. The next step is to do what they have undertaken. The sooner that is done the better it would be from all points of view. Furthermore, it would have been better if Deputy McGrath and Deputy Lynch, instead of raising this matter on the Adjournment, had come to my rooms where Deputies know they are welcome and can get all the information they require. Let them now combine with me in achieving what they say is our common purpose and that is to get the necessary order made by the Cork Corporation and to bring whatever pressure they are in a position to exercise to bear on the Cork County Council.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 15th July, 1954.