Private Members' Business. - Amendment of Aliens Act, 1935— Motion. – Dáil Éireann (15th Dáil) – Wednesday, 1 Dec 1954

Private Members' Business. - Amendment of Aliens Act, 1935— Motion.

Mr. McQuillan

I move the motion in my name and that of Deputy Finucane:—

That in order to relieve the acute congestion which exists in rural areas in the State, particularly in the West of Ireland, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should forthwith introduce proposals for legislation to amend the Aliens Act, 1935, so as to ensure that aliens shall not acquire land suitable for agricultural purposes or the relief of congestion unless they have at least ten years permanent residence in the State; Dáil Éireann further considers that such legislation should be retrospective to the 1st day of January, 1945.

I should like to point out to the House that the motion is tabled by two Deputies who have little knowledge of legal matters. For some time past we have tried to devise some means by which a Private Bill could be brought before the House whereby the grievances which we feel exist could be remedied. Because of the fact that there is not available to us the necessary technical and legal advice, we decided that the best method to deal with the particular problem was to put down a motion calling upon the Government to take the necessary steps. We all know that the Government in office have at their disposal the most skilful legal advisers and that there is no danger that a Government will be ill-advised in connection with the drafting of sections or the amendment of sections. It is in order to ensure that no hardship would devolve on those of our nation who are abroad that we call upon the Government to take those steps rather than force private Deputies to produce the concrete proposals by which we can limit aliens from purchasing in this country land that is fit for agricultural use and which could be used for the relief of congestion.

It should be noted that there is no mention in this motion of property other than land for agricultural purposes. We have kept away completely from the question of industrial concerns, the purchase of property in towns and cities, for the very simple reason that we, as Deputies from rural areas, are not completely familiar with that particular aspect of the alien situation. I say to the House that we are completely familiar with the situation that obtains in rural Ireland to-day and this motion is an appeal to those Deputies who represent rural Ireland.

The motion is in general terms, and calls on the Government to take certain steps. I am quite sure that legal men in this House will be well fit to shoot down the motion in its present form but, if they succeed in doing so on technical grounds, then they are greater fools than I thought them to be in the past because the people in rural areas will see and understand that little heed will be given to their grievances and little heed will be given to the particular hardships under which they have to exist at present except when election campaigns are on.

I have purposely refrained in this motion from dealing with the position of Irish people who emigrated to America ten, 15 or 20 years ago. I have purposely refrained in order that the Government can take steps to safeguard the position of Irish people and the descendants of Irish people who have gone to Britain, America, or the four ends of the earth, to ensure that whenever they feel like coming home to Ireland they shall not be treated as I wish to see other non-nationals treated under this motion. In other words, the question of the definition of "non-nationals" is being left to the Government draftsman so that no hardship can be done to the people of our own race who, for economic reasons, had to leave this country many years ago or to those who are leaving it to-day.

The particular problem of the purchase of land by aliens has been raised by me in this House on a number of occasions. It has also been raised by Deputies on both sides of the House. Every time a question on the subject of the purchase of land by aliens was raised in this House an evasive answer was given. As far as I can see, a blanket of silence has been imposed by the powers that be in connection with this very important problem. Why that should be, I do not know. Attempts are made by responsible Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries to suggest that the problem is not as serious as some of us would lead the House to believe. Yet, the important point to remember is that no evidence has been produced by members of the Government to contradict statements made by me and other Deputies to the effect that this is a serious problem. When they have been asked in this House time and again for figures they have failed to make available in concrete terms the actual acreage involved and the actual amount of money spent by non-nationals on the purchase of land here since the passing of the 1935 Aliens Act.

For the benefit of those Deputies who are not familiar with the Aliens Act, 1935, I should explain the section with which I am concerned. Section 3 of the 1935 Aliens Act states:—

"(1) Real and personal property of every description in Saorstát Éireann——"

as it was then

"——or subject to the law of Saorstát Éireann may be taken, acquired, held, and disposed of by an alien in the like manner and to the like extent as such property may be taken, acquired, held, or disposed of by a citizen of Saorstát Éireann."

Sub-section (3) of that section states:

"Nothing in this section shall operate—

(a) to qualify an alien for any office or for any municipal, parliamentary, or other franchise for which he would not be qualified if this section had not been enacted, or

(b) to qualify an alien to be the owner of a ship or of any share in a ship registered in Saorstát Éireann, or

Under Section 3 of the Aliens Act of 1935, no alien can become a member of this House or can become the owner of a ship or an aircraft or can become part owner of a ship or an aeroplane, but any alien can purchase all the agricultural land that he likes or desires though he may not fly an areoplane above that land or be the part owner of an aeroplane which flies over that land. But he can own all the land underneath that plane. Now I call that section of the 1935 Act a lunatic section in a country where 75 per cent. of the holdings are under £20 valuation, in a country where 75 per cent. of the agricultural holdings have an average valuation of £7 6s., in a country where Cromwell took steps to drive the natives to Connaught or to a warmer place. I could not see anything wrong with a section like that if it were part of an Act of Parliament in Australia or Canada or New Zealand, where they are anxious to get good farming stock, where they are anxious to have the vast tracts of undeveloped land planted by families; but to have such an Act in operation in Ireland, where we have so many agricultural slums and where so many of our people are living on economic holdings in miserable conditions is something which I believe the public are not aware of.

In the course of my remarks on this motion I propose to give certain figures, and I challenge the Minister for External Affairs to contradict me; and if there is any suggestion, during the course of the debate which may follow, on the part of any speaker which would misrepresent the line of thought which I am developing, I will take steps in my reply to the debate, and with your permission of course, Sir, to produce a list of names of non-nationals who have purchased land here since 1941, and to give a complete history in so far as it is possible to produce it to this House. I am sure there are many Deputies who would prefer to be elsewhere than listening to the long litany I have prepared. I should prefer not to have to do it.

It has been suggested that this is not a serious problem. As I have said time and again when questions have been submitted to the various Ministers, they have pooh-poohed the idea that the purchase of lands by aliens was extensive. In Volume 121, column 454 of the Official Debates there is a question in my name addressed to the Taoiseach in connection with the purchase of land by non-nationals. On the 24th May, 1950, the present Minister for External Affairs, then Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, replied as follows to a supplementary question by me:—

"Mr. Cosgrave: I have no evidence which would justify the belief that the situation gives cause for any undue alarm."

That was on the 24th May, 1950. We can forgive the then Parliamentary Secretary who is now Minister for External Affairs. It is not his fault that he is unfamiliar with rural Ireland and with the disposal of its land. When a question of land is raised what better authority can we get than the Minister for Lands himself, then, as now, Deputy Blowick. I raised a question in this House on the 11th May, 1950, in connection with a statement made by a land commissioner who attended at a land court in Galway. The statement made by the land commissioner which I quote from the Connacht Tribune of Saturday, May 6th, 1950, is as follows. I will not mention the name of the land commissioner:—

"It was his opinion that the fertile lands of Meath which were not being run productively should be made available for the relief of congestion in the West. ‘It was a shame,' he said, ‘that 100,000 acres of the best land in the country should have recently passed into the hands of aliens'."

That statement was made in Galway by a land commissioner, by one of the men appointed by the Government to deal with the problem of congestion. I raised a question in connection with that statement in this House. I adressed it to Deputy Blowick, then Minister for Lands, and I asked him if he were in agreement with the commissioner's statement. At column 2223, Volume 120 of the Dáil Debates Deputy Blowick replied:

"With regard to Deputy Cowan's and Deputy McQuillan's statements I want to say that I agree with the commissioner,"

and he went on to criticise the commissioner for having made such a statement, in other words, for having put Deputy Joseph Blowick into hot water by disclosing what the true situation was. There the Minister for Lands agrees that 100,000 acres of land had passed into the hands of aliens, and five days afterwards the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach stated that the problem of the purchase of land by non-nationals was not a serious one at all.

There were other questions with which I do not intend to bother the House. The machinery that was set up by the Government in order to keep a check on the purchase of land by aliens admits my point. Again in Volume 121, column 901 of the Official Debates the present Minister for External Affairs, in connection with the system the Government was setting up to check the purchase of land by aliens, stated:

"The proposed record will be incomplete in so far as it will not contain particulars of cases in which purchases of land by persons other than Irish citizens are exempted from payment of the 25 per cent. duty by sub-section (13) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1947, but it will in my judgment be adequate for the purpose in view."

In other words, there was a loophole in the system they had for keeping a check on the purchase of land by aliens. Having failed by question in this House to get definite figures with regard to the purchase of land by aliens, I proceeded through various sources, through contacts I had in different counties, to compile a list of farms purchased by non-nationals in the last twelve years. It will surprise the House when they get the figures and before I actually give those figures I want to draw a little comparison in connection with the work that has been going on by the Land Commission for the relief of congestion and compare it with the situation that exists in the relief of congestion and with the money spent by aliens on the purchase of land here and with which so many economic holdings could be set up.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but, of course, the administration of the Land Commission as a Department of State may not be discussed on this motion.

Mr. McQuillan

I am only drawing a comparison. I have no intention of criticising the Land Commission. I am purely on Government policy. To compare the figures for the ten-year period ending 31st March, 1951, a total of 117,000 acres was acquired for division by the Land Commission for a total inclusive fee simple price of £1,100,000. In 1947 the price paid for land by non-nationals reached the figure of £1,000,000 that is to say, in one year as great a sum was paid by non-nationals for land as was paid by the Land Commission for land for the relief of congestion for ten years previously.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is clearly a discussion on the administration of the Land Commission. If you compare what the Land Commission paid with what aliens paid, surely you are discussing the administration of the Land Commission.

Mr. McQuillan

I am only trying to point out that the land purchased by these aliens could have been used by the Land Commission.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not. He is saying the Land Commission expended a certain amount of money for the purchase of land for division among congests and such, and he is contrasting that with what was paid by aliens. That is clearly a reflection on the Land Commission administration.

Mr. McQuillan

The suggestion will be made in this House that the acreage of land purchased by non-nationals is negligible. I have pointed out that in 1947 they spent £1,000,000 here on the purchase of land. It is misleading for Deputies to get away from the actual suggestion in this motion by pointing out that the purchases made were limited, because what counts is the actual acreage of land purchased not the actual number of purchases or sales made. So far as specific cases are concerned many of the purchases by individuals in relation to land for agricultural purposes exceeded £50,000. I have here Press reports of sales, published official returns, and some parliamentary replies, and they all indicate to an extent the size of this problem. I have already pointed out that these aliens purchased land where the land is most fertile and the lists that are available show a tragic picture in counties like Meath, Westmeath, Kildare, Tipperary, Cork and Limerick. All these purchases by aliens are made in the most fertile areas of these counties. I have listed here on one page from the Press the names of 25 buyers with an aggregate purchase of land running to almost £500,000. The purchase of one individual alone approached the £200,000 mark. In one county we have a record of 50 extensive estates now in the hands of aliens and on these lists we have nobles, dukes and earls.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. O'Donovan)

When was this, may I ask?

Mr. McQuillan

I said we have lists here. If the Deputy was here when I pointed out how long I am getting these lists in view of the fact that I failed in this Dáil to get them, he would know.

Mr. O'Donovan

I take it that the Deputy is making no allegations against the Chair

Mr. McQuillan

None against the Chair. I shall come back now to where I was. I have pointed out that these aliens, especially the military groups, have purchased land in every strategic position in this country. No doubt, if their services are needed, Britain will be well served in the future—if the need arises. I should say that when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle pulled me up, he brought my mind back to one very important aspect in connection with this motion. I am mainly concerned with seeing the end of congestion in this country. It is to ensure that whatever agricultural land, and land that is fit for the relief of congestion, is available will be kept for the Irish congest that I have deliberately put this motion before the House.

It is rather significant that when the question of congestion is being discussed here on an important motion like this, the Minister for Lands does not think it worth his while to attend and the question of the solution of congestion is going to be dealt with by two individuals who, with all due respect to them, have a very, very limited knowledge of rural Ireland. The least we might have in this House now is the presence of the Minister for Lands so that he could give his views on this problem and tell us, in so far as it lies within his power, how many holdings could now be established if the land that has been purchased by aliens had been purchased, instead, by the Land Commission. This question of the gradual reconquest or resettlement in this country by non-nationals is very important because it is still going on while, at the same time, we export between 22,000 and 25,000 young persons every year from our country.

We are told by people in responsible positions that the pool of land available for the relief of congestion is very limited. As a matter of fact, some of them go to the extent of telling us that there is no more land available for the relief of congestion, and that the congests in the nine counties in the West and South must do as they are and must continue to eke out a miserable existence in these agricultural slums. I want to emphasise here and now that, without touching one lazy Irish rancher, 5,000 economic holdings, with an average of 30 acres, could have been established if the Land Commission had acquired this land that has been handed over to aliens. When I say 5,000 new holdings, let me draw this comparison: between 1931 and 1953 the Land Commission in all that period—a period which was looked upon as the time when the biggest drive was made for the relief of congestion—only established or created roughly 13,000 new holdings. Admittedly, during the same period they made extensions and rearrangements in other parts of the country, but the number of new so-called economic holdings created between 1931 and 1953 was approximately 13,000.

If the amount of land that has been sold to aliens in the last 12 years had been acquired we would have to-day 5,000 further new holdings of an economic nature and that would go a long way towards solving the problem of congestion in a number of counties. Let me emphasise that some of this prime land which was purchased by aliens was purchased at a lesser figure per acre than it is costing to reclaim land under the land project. I do not know whether Deputies are prepared to believe me, especially Deputies from the city areas, when I tell them of the conditions under which our congests have to exist. There seems to be an idea when the word "farmer" is mentioned here that a farmer is the type of man who has a Chrysler car and a £50 valuation. Let me tell the House that the majority of the so-called farmers have little more than slum holdings. The majority of them cannot live on or out of these farms. They must seek work elsewhere. If they cannot get work at home they go abroad. To a great extent they depend on the paypacket sent home by their sons and daughters from Britain and America to keep the homestead going. I am not concerned here with the man with the big valuation who has plenty of bullocks. I am concerned with the small uneconomic holder who is due a decent standard of living in his own country and a chance to rear his family.

Let me emphasise further the urgency of this motion to city Deputies by demonstrating what the position is in the West of Ireland, particularly in relation to Roscommon. I will just give an example of one electoral area in which there are 408 holdings; of these, 348 are under £5 valuation. There is a small Garda barracks in that area and there is always a queue of men looking for unemployment benefit. There is no work in the area. The sons and daughters reared in the homesteads there emigrate to England every year. These people rear large families for export. In case anybody thinks these figures are exaggerated the name of that locality is Kiltullagh, at the far side of Roscommon near Castlereagh. On the opposite side of the county, near Rooskey on the Shannon, there is an estate there which has been in the hands of the Land Commission for 20 years. There are 435 holdings and the majority of them are under £7 valuation. For 30 years these people have been told there is hope around the corner; the Land Commission is about to consider their case.

Deputies know what that means. These people are in dire need of new houses. They cannot go ahead and build. They would be foolish to do so because, should they build on these slum holdings, in three years' time the Land Commission may decide to migrate them. Therefore, they live from day to day in hope. While they are living in those circumstances, helping to fill our sanatoria with their offspring, the finest land in the midlands is sold into the hands of non-nationals. Does any Deputy blame me for putting down a motion of this kind when conditions such as I have described in these two areas alone exist all over the West?

I am not motivated with any antagonism towards foreigners. I am full of anxiety, however, to ensure that the claims of Irish people come first. It is my motto that wherever there is an acre of land suitable for the relief of congestion and available for purchase by an alien, that land should be acquired by the Land Commission for the relief of congestion. I think it is a shocking position that after 30 years of native government our young people are leaving rural Ireland. We set up commissions to inquire into the reasons why they leave. We do not need any commission to tell us that the reason why is because they cannot live in it.

While they are fleeing from parishes all over the west we have the fine fat bullock in the midlands grazing on the ranches under the benevolent eye of the alien, bringing him in wealth. I will not widen the scope of this debate as to the relative value per acre where land is producing beef, or tillage or dairying. In this House, before the end of the debate, we will have lip service from people in relation to land policy and land resettlement. I shall hit hard at anybody who starts on lip service unless he is prepared to put his theories into practice. The people have been listening long enough to this promise that congestion will be solved. How sincere are these politicians? I have heard them myself. I do not want to name them here. How many politicians to-day have reaped a rich harvest out of the sale of their country to non-nationals? I wonder could we have the figures of the amount of money handed over to prominent people here for the sale of the land of Ireland under the name of auctioneers' fees.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely we cannot discuss the auctioneering business on this motion.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not intend to discuss any individual. No names will be mentioned as far as I am concerned. I am referring to the lip service paid by politicians to the problem of resettlement and to the so-called anxiety they have expressed to see that as many of the people of Ireland as possible are established on the land. While they cant along these lines on public platforms, when they go to their offices they proceed to sell the finest land in Ireland to non-nationals.

A question was asked here in the Dáil on December 13th, 1950, addressed to the then Minister for Finance. He was asked to state the amount of stamp duty received on the purchase of land by aliens. The amount of stamp duty for a period of two and a half years, the period ending 30th June, 1950, was £181,000 approximately. If we calculate the amount of money spent by non-nationals on the purchase of land on the amount of the stamp duty, we find that they paid to the owners of land almost £750,000 for the land in these two and a half years. The stamp duty added to that brings the figure up to £900,000. That is the amount spent by aliens in the two and a half years ending 30th June, 1950, on the purchase of land. In the three-year period, which includes that two and a half years, the Land Commission paid £360,000 for all the land they acquired in fee simple and the owners of the land received approximately £260,000 out of that, so that we have the fact that in two and a half years non-nationals spent £900,000 on the purchase of laid here while the Land Commission spent £360,000 in acquiring land to relieve congestion in three years, including that two and half year period.

It is only by getting figures from various Departments that we can get any idea of what is happening so far as the purchase of land by aliens is concerned. The situation became so bad on the British Labour Government coming into office, that the Government here was forced by pressure of public opinion to increase the stamp duty. In 1947 the stamp duty went up to 25 per cent. I am not an expert in finance but I gather that the devaluation of the £ would to a great extent counteract the increase in the stamp duty. At any rate, so far as I am personally concerned, this 25 per cent. stamp duty was anything but sufficient to discourage these people from coming in. It has not proved successful. In this motion we call on the Government specifically to deal with the problem of agricultural land, that is suitable for the relief of congestion. We are not asking the Government to deal with property in any other sense, either industrial concerns or other property owned by companies. The motion is directed solely towards the question of land suitable for agricultural purposes and for the relief of congestion.

The latter part of the motion states:

"Dáil Éireann further considers that such legislation should be retrospective to the 1st day of January, 1945."

That is a matter on which I should like to hear the views of other Deputies before we come to any final decision. The main thing we want to establish is that it should go out from this House that the land of Ireland is for the people of Ireland, that we have no animosity towards foreigners as such in this House or in the country, but that this being a small country which has not yet solved its land problem, we do not feel ourselves in a position to allow land here in Ireland to be purchased or acquired by people of a different race. It may be, as I have already said, all right for Australia, Canada and New Zealand to welcome incoming farming stock in order to build up and develop these countries but is it not a tragic situation that we are pouring out of this country the finest farming stock year after year when we could help to fix up so many of them on economic holdings here at home?

I would ask the Government to accept the motion and, if they are not prepared to accept it in its present form, that at any rate they would indicate to the House that they are prepared to take the steps necessary to ensure that the land of this country will be reserved for Irishmen and that they will get first preference. Not being legal-minded, and having no technical advice at our disposal, we put down this motion as ordinary lay Deputies in the hope that we would have the sympathy of the majority of Deputies from rural Ireland on our side. When you know in your hearts what is right and what should be done, I think it would be a tragic position to see our efforts defeated on the grounds that we have failed to meet the necessary requirements in regard to legal drafting and so forth. As I said, we do not hold ourselves out to be experts on these matters and it is on that basis that we expect the Government to treat the motion in the spirit in which it has been moved by me.

Mr. Finucane

I wish to second the motion. My reason for doing so is that I am of opinion that all the land now left in this country is needed for the relief of congestion and for the settlement of the land problem by migration and otherwise. We all know that after the last war a rush was made by foreigners to purchase lands in Éire because they regarded it as a sound investment. They benefited from the rights conferred by the three F's in the same way as any national but the yearly income from the lands they purchased is not spent for the benefit of this country. I am supporting this motion because I believe it is an honest one and that some day some Government must face this problem. The time is, I believe, now opportune to tackle the problem before it is too late. For the last 12 years, I have put a number of questions in this House in regard to land division in Kerry but in that period of 12 years not one farthing has been spent on the acquisition of land in that county. I had been asked to put down these questions by the people themselves who wish to have their land acquired by the Land Commission in order that they might be transferred to counties like Meath, Kildare or Dublin. Not one farthing has been paid for such land in that period of 12 years. I have another instance in which within the past three years the Land Commission proposed to acquire a certain farm but six months ago the Land Commission indicated that they were not now prepared to take that farm.

I believe this is an honest motion and I would ask the Government to accept it in the form as put down.

Mr. J. Brennan rose.

Mr. MacBride

On a point of information, might I ask the Minister if he would be in a position to obtain and make available to the House before the debate is resumed particulars of the area of land and the value of land acquired by aliens, say, during the last six years? It would facilitate the House if such an estimate could be made available.

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Cosgrave)

I do not think there is an accurate figure which would give the particulars the Deputy requires. Efforts were made to get this figure. I think it is only an approximate one.

Mr. MacBride

Even if the official estimate could be made available, it would be useful.

Too often we find when trying to get a purchaser for a farm in a congested area or mountainous district that the people whom one would expect to be interested in purchasing the holding are themselves prepared to sell, if they could get a reasonable price, and get out. While that position remains it is difficult to see why it should be necessary to put a further embargo on foreigners coming in, by way of increased stamp duty or otherwise, to prevent them buying holdings which are lying derelict in hundreds with nobody attempting to buy them. It is clearly a position where the Land Commission must come in and make some definite arrangement whereby these holdings would be taken over at an economic price from those who are prepared to sell them and who want to get out and given to the adjoining holdings or to those who are prepared to take them and work them successfully.

I would not say that in all cases it would be suitable to have them allocated to the people in the adjoining holdings because very often they are not terribly interested in the holding they have or very often they are people who themselves are prepared to sell out if they could find a suitable purchaser. They should be given to some person who is prepared to work them and to make a success of the holding generally.

That, in my opinion, is the solution that will meet the general requirements of this motion. Any more towards that end will find the support, I am sure, of every Deputy representing a congested area.

A different problem may exist in the better areas but, certainly, if you are going to put restrictions on the number of people who will be able to purchase holdings it should be the duty of the Land Commission to make alternative arrangements to ensure that these people find some means of disposing of their holdings when they want to and at the same time give an opportunity to increase the smaller holdings in the same area.

That is my attitude towards this matter. I am speaking entirely from the professional experience and from my own experience and I would say that it is not my experience that foreigners have created any serious problems in the congested areas by buying up holdings.

Mr. McQuillan

On a point of order. Nobody has suggested that they have created a problem in the congested areas. It will be a solution to the problem in the congested areas if the non-national is prevented from purchasing fertile land in the good counties.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. McQuillan

It is a point of explanation.

Mr. J. Brennan

It at least explains the matter so far as I am concerned that the point behind this motion is that all the lands which may be available for the relief of congestion would be left in the hands of the nationals so that they may be divided in order to relieve congestion. If that is the point, it is a reasonable and good point. It is certainly not the point I have read into the motion. The motion, so far as I see it, refers to the relief of congestion and then asks for a further embargo to be put on non-nationals purchasing land in this country to prevent them purchasing land which should ordinarily be left for nationals. If it is intended that it should apply to the large estates sometimes purchased, I am sure, by foreigners, so that these estates may be available for distribution for the relief of congestion in the congested areas, then it is a very good point indeed. At the same time, it will have to be followed up by a definite arrangement on the part of the Land Commission to take over these derelict holdings and have them allocated among the people in the areas in which they are lying derelict at the moment, without any purchaser taking any interest in them. We have far too many of these holdings and every Deputy coming from a congested area can bring to mind several cases in every townland in his constituency—instances of holdings lying derelict with nobody taking any interest in them at the moment, but which are available for anybody who will offer any sort of reasonable price, so that the owners may get rid of them. In many cases, the owners have long since emigrated. Some are in America and some in England and other parts of the world. A number are still occupied by people who are anxious to dispose of them, and if the Land Commission will make an arrangement whereby they will take these over, I would strongly support any move in that direction.

Mr. MacBride

The motion raises an extremely important question to which, I think, insufficient attention has been given, namely, the extent and degree of foreign capital invasion. It raises it in regard to the question of land, which, of course, is probably the most serious aspect of any large-scale influx of foreign capital. I think the Deputy bringing this motion forward has done well to do so at this time, because there is undoubtedly very considerable uneasiness at the apparent vast influx of foreign capital, in land in particular, in the course of the past few years. It is a matter that would cause a considerable amount of uneasiness in any country. It is always regarded as a dangerous sign and one that should be checked. In addition to agricultural land, there has been a good deal of evidence of the influx of alien capital in land values as well in the City of Dublin and indeed in many business spheres. Particularly in recent times, we have seen reports in the papers of old established big business firms changing hands. That undoubtedly is a matter which does not arise on this motion, but I think it deserves a good deal of attention.

One of the difficulties in dealing with this question, as Deputy McQuillan has pointed out, is the apparent difficulty that exists in obtaining accurate information, and Deputy McQuillan is quite justified in saying that there has been some form of reluctance on the part of the Departments responsible—I am not blaming the Ministers but more the Departments themselves—in making this information available. One always has the feeling that it is a question of using a corkscrew to get information of that nature from the Department of Finance. They are always very touchy on this question, but that is a completely mistaken policy on the part of the Department of Finance because it only increases the uneasiness that exists. I hope the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will use their best endeavours between now and whatever date the discussion on the motion is resumed to ensure that the fullest information possible is made available to the House.

Certainly the figures which Deputy McQuillan has relied on are very alarming and it is a matter in respect of which the House is entitled to have very full information. Another matter upon which information would be useful is the type of legislation that exists in other countries to avoid just this very evil. The influx of foreign capital, particularly in land, is always, as I have pointed out, regarded as a dangerous sign and I think that most countries at some time or another have had to legislate in order to protect themselves from it. I am subject to correction, but I think that in many European countries you will find that there is legislation which forbids the acquisition of land by a non-national to the extent of more than, say, five or ten acres, more than an area sufficient to enable a farmer who wishes to build a house and come to live here to do so.

It would be useful in considering this motion if the Minister could possibly obtain particulars of the type of legislation which exists in other countries in regard to that. I think that in European countries there is generally some type of legislation to restrict the acquisition of land by non-nationals. Whether it is a complete prohibition or a limited one which operates under licence, I am not quite certain. It would also be useful to have an indication of the maximum quantity of land which a non-national is permitted to buy in other countries.

There is a good deal in what Deputy Brennan said. I feel that farmers do not wish to come to acquire land in a congested area, or those who do are usually more the better type of non-national who comes over and acquires a place as a holiday resort or something of that kind. The non-nationals who, I think, are the most harmful are those who come and acquire vast tracts of our best land to use it as a source of income for themselves, either by using it as a ranch or by working it themselves. The whole question is so closely woven into the major economic problem of the country that it is very hard to discuss it just by itself. Our whole economic problem is based on our non-utilisation of our land, labour and capital. I probably wearied the House on other occasions by pointing out the mad economy which we have accepted so readily for a long time here whereby we export capital that could be utilised here in the development of the land. As a result of the export of the capital that should be utilised to develop our land we ultimately export our people. Land is one of the three essential ingredients for the creation of wealth. It is obvious therefore, that any large influx of foreign capital in land is bound to have a prejudicial effect on the economy of the country.

That aspect is considerably worsened when one appreciates the degree of congestion that exists throughout the whole of rural Ireland. Deputy McQuillan referred to rural slums in Donegal, Leitrim and in the West generally. He is quite right. Both holdings of £5 and £10 valuation are completely uneconomic. I would nearly wish that there was some prospect of being able to deal with the position by stopping the acquisition of land by aliens. I am afraid that would probably not deal with it but it might be a step in the right direction.

As I said at the beginning, it forms part of this whole problem—it seems to have become rather acute in recent times—of the influx of foreign capital. I have no objection to foreign capital coming in when it is for industrial development and when it is accompanied by technical "know-how" or knowledge, particularly if the influx of foreign capital for industrial development is primarily intended to secure the development of the export industry. But in the case of the acquisition of land there is no question of the alien coming here and bringing with him technical knowledge. There is no question of his enabling land to be used which would not otherwise be used. If the land was left in the hands of nationals or taken over by the Land Commission or even by the Forestry Department it would be used. It certainly would not remain unused.

I would ask the Minister to try and obtain for the House as much information as he can. Possibly he will have difficulty in worming it out of the Department of Finance who never like to reveal these figures which they must have. Even if they are not accurate figures, at least they give a reasonable approximation of the area of land at present in the hands of non-nationals in the country.

The motion itself is not ideally worded but I think it should not be approached from any narrow viewpoint. It should not be approached on the basis that there are certain portions of the motion which are not approved of by everybody. I think the intention behind the motion is what should be considered. I am quite certain, if there was any inclination on the part of the House to adopt the motion, that by agreement the wording could be so altered as to get over any technical draw-backs there might be in it. Therefore, I would ask the House to approach the motion not so much from a narrow legalistic point of view as from the intention behind it of enabling us to ensure that land will not be sold to aliens while there is congestion.

Probably the best way of dealing with the position would be to limit the area of land which a non-national could purchase to whatever area may be necessary to provide facilities for the non-national who may wish to come here and build a house in which to live himself. Let it be five acres or even ten acres if you like. I would not suggest that we should even be niggardly on that but certainly it should be limited to an area which might reasonably be required for the building of a private dwelling-house.

Apart from the land which is acquired for agricultural purposes, there is also the problem of the land speculator, the non-national who comes here. That has been quite an acute problem in recent years in and about the City of Dublin. Non-nationals have come here and bought areas of land for speculation. Some bought the land just because they had the capital and they re-sold it. Some bought the land, did a certain amount of development and then re-sold it. I think that has been done on quite an extensive scale. In a number of cases I think they have also evaded the payment of any stamp duty by utilising a company which was formed prior to 1947. As a matter of fact, quite a brisk trade has been done in the sale of "dead" companies formed prior to 1947. These companies were bought by non-nationals. As the companies were registered here prior to 1947 these people could then purchase the land and avoid paying stamp duty. It was a form of tax evasion if you like but something which was within the law. It had been practised extensively. The Minister might also try to obtain some information from the Department of Finance as to their view of the extensiveness of that type of land purchase in recent years.

Mr. Moran

If I interpret the motion correctly or the idea behind it it is a reflection of the feeling in the minds of Deputies from the congested districts of the utter failure of the Land Commission to deal with the land slum problem. In so far as the intention behind the motion is such as is stated, there are a few matters I should like to deal with.

If the relief of the land slum problem is the main thing in the minds of the movers of this motion I am very much afraid that even if the motion were passed and the Aliens Act repealed it would have little or no effect upon what the movers of the motion are trying to get after. It is quite apparent now to everybody that although technically the Land Commission have powers to come into the open market and purchase land, they have not been doing it. Their machinery is such that these powers are useless as far as the solution of the land slum problems are concerned. They have been making absolutely no headway with that machinery largely, I think, either because of the lack of discretion on the part of local Land Commission officials to purchase land as it becomes available on the market without referring to Dublin or to some cumbersome machinery of the Land Commission so that their hands are tied. I move the adjournment of the Debate.

Debate adjourned.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 1 Dec 1954

Private Members' Business. - Amendment of Aliens Act, 1935— Motion.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Dec 1954