Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Feb 1955

Vol. 148 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - City and County Management (Amendment) Bill, 1954—Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. O'Donnell)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. One of the points in the 12-point programme of the inter-Party Government formed last June is as follows:—

"To restore democratic rights in respect of local government by amending the County Management Acts and giving to local authorities greater autonomy and effective power in local affairs...."

When speaking in reply to the debate on the Estimate for my Department, I announced my intention to find out at first hand what were the relations which existed between the elected bodies and the managers. I promised that I would visit every county and county borough in the country and seek out the views of the elected members and the managers on the question of the management system. I did this in the course of the following months and I should like at this stage to express to the members of local authorities and managers with whom I have had contact my sincere thanks for their advice and assistance which I found most helpful in formulating the proposals contained in this Bill. At the meetings with local authorities I listened to various criticisms made against the present system and to suggestions as to how it might be improved. I have since given the most careful consideration to these criticisms and suggestions and I think I can fairly say that the present Bill meets the wishes of the vast majority of the local representatives with whom I spoke and that its provisions are intended to remove the defects which they brought to my attention.

One of the main complaints of elected members against the present system is their lack of timely information about the affairs of the local authority. While, under existing law, members are entitled to obtain from the manager any information they require, their general supervisory powers over the manager are effective only if prior information in regard to his proposals is available. This was frequently brought to my notice with special reference to the allocation of tenancies of houses. Many public representatives said:—

"We do not wish to select the tenants ourselves, nor do we wish the legal allocation of a tenancy to be a reserved function. What we do wish is that the list of eligible applicants as passed by the medical officer and the list of tenants proposed by the manager be discussed with us before houses are assigned to them. The councillors' local knowledge may often be of value in correcting mistakes of fact in the assessment of housing needs."

I fully appreciated this case and I intended to provide specifically for prior consultation by the manager with the elected body in regard to allocation of houses. But there were other matters also on which some representatives desired to be consulted, for example, a decision to carry out a particular work by way of contract, the making of planning decisions under interim control, the course to be taken in connection with legal proceedings and so on. When I came to consider the matter in its wider aspects, I decided that there was no reason why the elected body should not require that they be consulted by the manager in regard to any particular act or series of acts which he proposed to do before he actually did them, provided they themselves considered them of sufficient importance to wish to be consulted about them in advance. I have, therefore, included in the Bill a section (Section 2) which I refer to as the "consultation section" which gives the members of the local authority the power to require the manager to notify them of his proposals before performing any specified executive function either in a particular case or in all cases of the performance of such function.

Functions in relation to officers and servants and individual health functions are excluded from the scope of this section as the elected members' power of requisition, which I shall refer to later, does not extend to these functions.

In regard to new works of a capital nature, sub-section (7) of Section 2 is included to ensure that the elected members must be informed in advance before the local authority is committed to any expenditure on such works. On receipt of such information they may, under Section 3 of the Bill, require the manager not to proceed with the works in question provided they are not works which the local authority are required by law to undertake.

Now we come to the exercise by the elected members of an effective system of control over the acts of the manager where they find, after consultation under Section 2, that he is unwilling to meet their point of view. At present they have the power (under Section 29 of the County Management Act, 1940, and similar provisions in the various City Management Acts) to require him to perform a specified function in a specified way. I learned during my visits to the local bodies that this procedure was never invoked to any great extent, mainly because of the absence of power to obtain prior information as to the managers' proposals and also because the procedure involved is so cumbersome. Under the existing law, the notice of intention to propose a resolution requiring the manager to do a particular thing must be signed by not less than one-third of the members and a date between seven and 14 days of the date of the notice specified for the holding of a special meeting at which the resolution is to be proposed. The resolution must be passed either by more than half the total membership of the local authority or by more than two-thirds of the members present and voting. Section 4 of the present Bill is designed to provide a simple form of requisition in substitution for the existing cumbersome procedure. The notice of intention need only be signed by three members. The resolution may be moved either at an ordinary meeting or at a special meeting. A simple majority of the members present and voting will be sufficient to carry the resolution provided the number voting for the resolution exceeds one-third of the total membership of the local authority.

At present managers become appointed automatically on being recommended for the office by the Local Appointments Commissioners. It is the function of the Minister to fix the date on which the manager on appointment is to take up duty. This provision has caused the impression to be held by some local representatives that the manager is an officer of the Minister appointed by him, imposed on the local authorities and capable of being made subject to personal and extra-statutory directions from the Minister.

In order that the true position may be understood by all local representatives, Section 5 of the Bill provides that the manager will be appointed on the recommendation of the Local Appointments Commissioners by resolution of the appropriate local authority. This is to underline the important fact that the manager is an officer of the local authority by whom he is appointed in the same way as any other officer appointed on the recommendation of the Local Appointments Commissioners or otherwise.

One of the most widely voiced criticisms of the present system is that the elected members of local authorities have not enough control over increases in staff or increases in remuneration. Many public representatives drew attention to the great increases which have taken place in the numbers of persons employed by county councils since the managers took control. They admitted that such increases may have been warranted, but they pointed out that in many instances they were never made aware of the reasons for adding to the staff. Section 6 of the Bill provides that a proposal to increase or decrease the number of permanent officers under a local authority may not be submitted by the manager for sanction without consent by resolution of the elected members and that the manager may not fix an increased or reduced rate of remuneration applicable to any class, description or grade of office or employment without similar consent by resolution.

Under the law as it stands, the manager prepares the annual estimate of expenses and submits it for consideration at the annual estimates meeting. The elected members are thus placed at a disadvantage in their deliberations on the estimate, in that they have had no hand in its preparation. Section 7 of the Bill provides a new procedure. Under it a local authority will elect from amongst its members an estimates committee to consist in the case of a county council of two members from each county electoral area and in the case of every other local authority of not more than one-third of its membership.

The estimates committee will prepare the annual estimate of expenses. The manager, or an officer designated by him, will be required to attend each meeting of the committee to give advice and information as required. The manager may furnish a separate report to the local authority if he is of opinion that the estimate prepared by the committee would seriously prejudice the efficient or economical performance of the duties of the local authority. It shall also be the duty of the estimates committee from time to time to furnish the members of the local authority with whatever financial statements they require so as to keep informed of the position of the local authority's finances. This is to meet the criticism voiced by some local bodies that for the greater portion of the financial year they are left in the dark as to the financial position of the local authority or that the information given is inadequate.

It is proposed to give greater freedom to the elected members in dealing with the estimate of expenses at the annual estimates meeting. Under existing law, the members of the local authority cannot at an estimates meeting make an amendment of the estimate to which the manager objects. Consideration of any amendment proposed must be adjourned to a special meeting and at that special meeting no new amendment can be considered. The provisions dealing with the procedure at estimates meetings in both the City and County Management Acts are being repealed and new provisions applying to all local authorities are included in Section 10. This section enables local authorities to amend an estimate of expenses at the estimates meeting or at any adjournment thereof provided that the meeting may not be adjourned to a day outside the period of 21 days from the day on which the estimates meeting began.

During the discussions I had with local representatives I was surprised to find that many of them appeared to be unaware of their powers, under the Management Acts, to make regulations prescribing the procedure to be followed in regard to the reception and examination of tenders. I propose in Section 15, therefore, that there be an obligation on each newly elected council to make a formal decision as to whether to have regulations or not.

This section will also provide that the regulations may extend to the seeking of tenders as well as to their reception and examination.

Under Section 13 it is provided that the Minister may de-group any of the six pairs of counties grouped for management purposes on receipt of a request from each of two such grouped counties. As a corollary to this it is proposed in Section 12 to allow the Minister to group two counties the councils of which have requested him to do so. In Section 14 there are provisions enabling the present arrangement whereby the Dublin City Manager is also Dublin County Manager to be terminated. Consequential provisions dealing with the Dublin assistant managers are contained in Section 22.

Power is given to the manager under Section 17 to delegate any of his functions in relation to a local authority, with the approval of the Minister appropriate to the functions in question, to an approved officer of that local authority. The manager will continue to be responsible for the acts of his delegate and he may revoke the delegation at any time. He would thus be able to delegate to a responsible officer certain duties of a minor or routine nature and devote his time to his more important duties.

I have included this section because I was informed that many managers are obliged to give an undue proportion of their time to the making of orders of a trivial or routine character and for that purpose to visit towns at a considerable distance from their headquarters on occasions when their journeys would not otherwise be necessary. This obligation arises out of the requirement that everything in the executive functions of a manager which formerly required to be done by resolution of the local authority should thereafter have to be done by the manager by signed order.

The remaining sections of the Bill to which I do not make specific mention contain miscellaneous minor provisions designed to clarify or facilitate the administration of the Management Acts.

This Bill will, I believe, provide much needed improvements in the management system and will, if I can judge from my experience at the many discussions I had with them, be welcomed by the public representatives. I think I may say it represents the views of the local bodies all over the country. It should help to engender a better atmosphere for the conduct of local authority affairs by the elected members and the managers jointly. I believe the time is ripe for such a "new look" and I take this opportunity of acknowledging the cordiality and substantial unanimity with which the representatives of all the Parties assisted me in the examination of their problems in all the local centres. I also think it right to acknowledge that my predecessor in the last Dáil introduced a Bill the contents of which contained somewhat similar provisions to those now included in Sections 6, 10 and 13 of this Bill, together with some of the minor provisions which I have not detailed in my present statement.

This Bill is, I hope, presented in reasonably clear language for consideration by the members of this House. We must, however, bear in mind that many members of local bodies lack the experience possessed by Deputies in reading and interpreting Acts of the Oireachtas. When I pointed out to local authorities that their powers were set out in detail in the County Managements Acts, I received in many instances replies that suggested that either the Acts were not available to them or, if they were, they were unable to get from them a clear picture of their powers or of the procedure under which they might exercise them.

I accordingly propose that, if and when this Bill is enacted by the Oireachtas, a memorandum of its contents and of the contents of the previous Management Acts (so far as unrepealed) will be circulated to every member of every local body and that each manager will thereafter be required to circulate copies of that memorandum to every member of the local bodies for which he is manager, following each local election. The memorandum will give in short and simple terms an account of the powers which the Acts confer on the elected representatives and of the methods by which these powers may be exercised.

Mr. Smith

There is nothing very exciting in this Bill now before the House. I am in no way surprised at that fact, because as the Minister has stated, an amending Bill introduced by myself had passed its Second Reading before the last election. When the present Minister made his first public announcement I think he dealt with the County Management Acts. I was rather surprised when he seemed to convey the impression that he had drastic intentions as far as these Acts were concerned. Whether he had or not, or whether as a matter of fact he had given much thought at all to the subject, he seemed to speak in a way that suggested to me that he intended going very far towards restoring the position that existed prior to the introduction of the extension of the management system.

I was wondering just how far he could go, and I hazarded the guess at the time that when he had an opportunity of thinking matters over, perhaps he would find that it would not be as easy as it seemed at a distance, and so we have before us a simple amending Bill which undoubtedly, as the Minister admitted, provides for a number of useful amendments, which I would regard as useful to the Management Acts: the right of the local representatives to determine whether or not the number of staff should be increased, the right of these elected people to determine the conditions under which they should serve—I mean as far as pay is concerned—the clarification of the position as far as the determination of the rate is concerned. All these are useful improvements which were, as has been stated, included in the amending Bill of 1953.

But there is a provision here which does not make sense to me, and the only reason I can find for its inclusion in the Bill is that it is intended as a sort of dressing-up to make it appear that there was something in these proposals that, in fact, the proposals do not contain at all, as an effort to relieve this Bill of its bareness, and that is this proposal regarding the estimates committee. Did any man ever hear of a committee of the county council being made responsible for the preparation of the estimates, or the committee of a corporation assisted by say the county manager, county secretary or some member of the staff? Did anyone ever hear of a proposal to the effect that any member of a board of directors should be made responsible for that work, which is surely and clearly the responsibility of the manager? I admit, of course, that you can say: "Is it not an offer of further power to the local elected body?" Even if we know in advance that it is a power they are not likely to exercise, it can always be said that if they do not exercise it why should they ask, why should they dispute or contend that powers have been taken from them by the Management Acts?

I always thought that the way in which—in most counties anyhow—this business was done, even before there was a Management Act at all, was the correct procedure, and that was that the estimates were prepared by the secretary of the county council and later by the manager, I suppose, in consultation with the secretary. If the county council so decided, they had an estimates committee to which the estimates were referred. That committee went into those estimates very thoroughly and after they had completed their consideration of them they reported back to the body as a whole. They in turn discussed them item for item, having there the officials who were responsible for their preparation and who would be called upon to justify each provision that was proposed there.

Just think of the nonsense which a provision such as is included here means. Where you have in a county four electoral areas, it means asking eight members of an electoral body to come together and actually prepare the estimates. If they do not prepare those estimates it will fall, as it should, as the duty of the manager to see that they are prepared. I am not saying a provision like this will do any harm, but it seems to me purposeless to include it when every sensible man knows it will never be used and should not be used. Think of the time that will be wasted by these eight, ten or 12 individuals who will form this estimates committee. Think of the number of occasions on which they will have to assemble and of the number of occasions on which they will have to have local officials before them. Do we not know that that is not a practicable proposition in any shape or form?

There is nothing in the Bill that is not all right, as far as I know, except that one provision. Even that is a harmless kind of thing and I venture to say that it will not be used in any single case by any local authority. It is a complete reversal of the way in which all business institutions go about their work. Although this Bill might look a little plainer without such a provision, I still think it would be better without it. I would be inclined to ask the Minister to reconsider this matter and to follow the procedure that has been adopted all down the years and which has proved in regard to this question to be quite satisfactory.

When the previous amending Bill was before this House I remember, in concluding the Second Reading discussion, saying to all the Deputies here: "This surely is not a political matter". I have heard the management system discussed and criticised in this House by Deputies over a long number of years and I have heard that criticism down the country as well. I think we can now approach a Bill like this in the way I was prepared to approach it in 1953 by extending to every Deputy in the House, representing whatever Party, whatever interests he might, an open invitation to put down considered amendments and, with the experience we have now gained from the operation of this system, to let us have a clear and open discussion. We could in fact leave to the House the determination of any question that might be raised on the amendments as to the improvements that might be effected in the managerial system.

I do not think that even if those who have been talking glibly about the disadvantages of that system were given the freedom they would take responsibility for its abolition. In regard to the previous proposals that were introduced here, I was just glancing at some of the speeches that were made on the Second Reading debate and they were all along the lines that what I was proposing was not revolutionary, and so on.

We have another Bill here emanating from other sources which is in or about the same, and it is in or about the same for the reason that people have come to understand how difficult local administration has come to be. Even members of local bodies have come to understand that local affairs and local administration are so complicated that those members could not be expected to give the time that would be necessary if they were to do justice to their task.

The management system, therefore, has come to stay. The amendments that are proposed here will be helpful. They will restore some further responsibility to the elected representatives and they will maintain what I think is very desirable, a fair balance between what is to be in future the responsibility of the manager and the responsibility of the elected representatives. I have nothing but approval to offer in relation to the proposals here except for the fact that I do not like the provision to which I have referred and I would be glad if it could be eliminated.

Mr. T. Lynch

If the Minister was in any doubt as to whether his Bill was a success or not he need be in no doubt now when he has heard what his predecessor has had to say. I am a member of a local authority and I have always been an opponent of the managerial system, often a lone wolf. However, I have come around to see for myself that there are certain functions that a manager must have. The statements which the present Minister for Local Government has made might have appeared to be revolutionary but he was brave enough to go around to every county council in the country, consult them freely and openly as to what they thought, what they wanted, what functions they would like to have restored or what functions they would like the manager to continue with. I was present at one of those conferences and the Minister put the question straight: "Do you want all your functions restored?" I personally said I did but my colleagues said "no, they did not," and they did not want to have anything to do with the employment of staff.

There are several other things which the manager has, as his reserved functions, that they were prepared to let him have. However, managers have often employed staff and officers without consulting the council and it has often been a source of great annoyance to the members of local councils to read in the newspapers that more staff and more officers were to be employed —especially when members of the public would question them about the matter and their only knowledge would be what they had just read in the newspaper about it. The Minister is giving the council power, by requisition, to prevent the manager from spending money on doing things they do not want him to do.

Deputy Smith mentioned estimates committees. He says the councils will be wasting their time drawing up estimates. I have not as low an opinion as that of our county or borough councils. I would not consider it a waste of time or a waste of the time of any councillor to have one's say in the drawing-up of estimates. In my view, it is a power we should always have and I am grateful to the Minister for it. Estimates were always prepared by officials behind closed doors and handed out to us practically as a fait accompli. This departure by the Minister is good and I compliment him on it. While on the subject of estimates committees I suggest that the Minister should allow the number to be greater.

I come now to the appointment of a manager. I do not like the Local Appointments Commission. I never liked it and I never will like it. I might say, at first, that I am not trying to make a job for anybody. I just want to say that there was an official in Waterford—and he is not a man who would vote for me—who, in my view, got a very raw deal. He was a very able and competent official. He had not university qualifications. When a vacancy occurred in a rank higher than his own he should have been promoted to it. The trouble, of course, is that, when such a man might go for interview before the Local Appointments Commissioners, some young man who might have some small experience as a county councillor, but who might have had a distinguished university career, would beat him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot see how the Local Appointments Commissioners can be discussed on this measure.

Mr. T. Lynch

I was hoping they could. However, if I am not in order I will desist. I want to compliment the Minister on this Bill. It is a great thing for local authorities to get back any of their powers. I consider that the Minister has given back to local authorities the powers that councillors and members of corporations all over the country asked him to restore. He took a consensus of opinion and acted accordingly upon it in the Bill. I welcome this Bill and I am glad that I am a member of this House to welcome it.

Mr. Childers

I have very few words to say about this Bill except that I should like to recall to the House the circumstances under which the county management administration commenced back in the 1940s. In the period about 1944-45, a number of representations were made to the then Minister for Local Government suggesting that the powers of the county managers were too wide and that they were keeping themselves too aloof from their county councils. Two separate memoranda were sent in the years 1945 and 1946 to all members of local authorities throughout the State pointing out that there could be a reasonable interpretation of the extent to which county managers should co-operate with members of local authorities and that there were a number of things that could be done by local authorities which although not expressly named in the County Management Act were, nevertheless, possible to be done without breaking the law.

There are certain sections of this Bill which are simply legal repetition of suggestions given at that time to members of local authorities as to how they could interpret the County Management Act at that time. For example, it was made perfectly clear that there was no reason why members of local authorities should not form estimates committees and roads committees to discuss in considerable detail and in their own time the estimates for the county council. The only difference in this Bill is that it states a definite procedure and announces that there must be a given time of 21 days between the commencement of discussions on the estimate and the time the estimate is closed. I may be wrong but, so far as I know, there is nothing to prevent a county council, in an informal manner, from doing that to-day—and they need not call the estimates committee the "estimates committee" if they do not want to. At the present time, there is nothing to prevent them from discussing estimates before the period in which they have to be passed and before the rate has been struck.

I come now to the section of the Bill in which a county council may direct a county manager to do certain things. So far as I know, there are quite a number of county councils at present where there is a friendly co-operation between the county manager and the members of the local authority. In the ordinary way, the county manager submits proposals and takes advice, when given, by the local authority. There are county councils to-day where although the county manager can increase the staff, if he so desires, without the consent of the local authority, in fact there can be informal deliberations on that matter. I am not objecting to that being made legally enforceable. I want merely to say, in defence both of the more efficient local authorities and the more co-operative managers, that many of the things recommended in this Bill are being done in an informal way to-day in a number of county councils. I am glad the Minister has now put these into legislation so that they can be done in legal form. I wanted to make that statement because at this time—back in the 1940s—we took very great trouble to try and make for a very flexible procedure.

I am extremely glad the Labour Party have not had their way on this occasion in regard to one section, which was in the last County Management Bill but one, in which it was understood that members of local authorities could give or withhold home assistance. We considered that a highly undesirable feature of that Bill —undesirable, because it is generally considered to be a good principle of democracy that the people who have the giving of money for a particular service should not be the same people as those who decide who shall have it. We considered that there should be some independent authority between them and the givers. Such a system works for honest administration and impartiality of administration in this and every other democratic country of the world. I am very glad to see that that particular feature is not in the Bill now before us, because it would seem to me to be introducing a system which all of us would wish not to have in this country. Apart from that, I have very little more to say on the Bill except to express agreement with the statement of Deputy Smith that some of the sections can best be discussed in Committee and to say that I am glad this Bill resembles to a considerable degree the Bill we had in mind before we left office. I hope the Bill will result in greater and more friendly co-operation between managers and local authorities.

Mr. Hughes

I wish to congratulate the Minister on introducing the Bill. I believe that the Minister went to a lot of trouble to ascertain the views of members of county councils all over the country. He visited every county, discussed the particular problems of local government with members of each county and, as a result of that, we have the Bill now before the House. I think that all Parties will agree that it is a move in the right direction and that it restores to local bodies many of the powers which they formerly held. Some people may feel that the Bill does not go far enough, that it is not restoring to local authorities all the powers that should be given back, but I believe that when the Minister interviewed the members of various county councils and corporations, he found that that was not the view that they held. I know that when he visited the county council, of which I am a member, members definitely agreed that they were not anxious to have all the powers formerly held by county councils given back. The different parts of the Bill will definitely give considerably more power to county councils than they now possess, as large powers as members of the county councils require.

Deputy Smith referred to the proposed estimates committee and considered that it would be valueless. I believe that that is a very useful part of the Bill because under the present position when an estimate is presented by the manager, very little opportunity is given to members of county councils of going into every detail at an estimates meeting. If an estimates committee is set up, I believe the members of that committee will have time to examine the estimates fully, although it does not necessarily mean that they will prepare the estimates. The intention is that they will examine every portion of the estimate with the manager and the officials and any doubts which they may have in regard to any particular matter will be cleared up. Then, when the council meets, members will be in a position to examine the estimates fully and have all their problems smoothed out. My experience is that under the present system it is very difficult to get all the points raised clarified. I think, therefore, that an estimates committee can be very useful.

The proposal in another portion of the Bill giving powers to the county councils to deal with tenders is also a very important innovation. In the past it has been our experience, in regard to tenders for housing schemes and large schemes of that nature, that one knows nothing of what is happening with a big tender of that type until it appears on the papers. That seems to be an extraordinary position. You just know no more about it than any member of the public. That state of affairs will be changed by this Bill and tenders can in future be examined by members of the county council. I think that the Bill on the whole is a very useful measure and that it will help very considerably to solve the difficulties and the problems which have confronted members of county councils up to the present. County councils definitely were not looking for the restoration of full powers. This Bill, however, goes some distance towards restoring a more equitable balance in local administration. It is taking some of the important functions and powers, the possession of which by the county manager was regarded as objectionable, and proposing to hand them over to the local bodies. I think the Bill will help considerably to smooth local administration.

Mr. Blaney

Like other Deputies who have already spoken, I must say that generally I am in agreement with the Bill now before the House. I should like to congratulate the Minister on introducing it, particularly as it very closely resembles the measure which the previous Minister brought before the House a year ago. The outstanding feature about it, a feature that will go down as something worth while in regard to the Bill, is the inference that may now be justifiably drawn, that the present Government just as the previous Government are satisfied that the County Management Act is something that is necessary, something that we cannot do without. I am glad, for that reason, to see this Bill coming from the present Government so that, once and for all, this question may be removed out of politics and out of public life from every platform in the future, this question of the County Management Act which was condemned roundly by the Parties composing the present Government when it suited them.

A typical example of their attitude to it is indicated by a few of the expressions which I have taken at random from the report of the debate on the Bill brought in by the last Minister in February of last year. Deputy Blowick, speaking on the 25th February, said that the County Management Act was a first-class administrative blunder. He said, on the same date, that the 1954 Amendment Bill was a shabby attempt to catch up with what was originally a bad Act. I wonder whether Deputy Blowick, and many others who expressed similar opinions in our day, are now satisfied that the County Management Act is not so bad, that in fact it is something on which we can build a proper county administration in future, an administration that has grown over recent years out of all proportion to what one would have expected some 20 years ago. The services now being rendered by local authorities absolutely rule out, by the nature of the wide field they cover and the amount of work that must be done administratively, any question of giving back to local representatives all the powers that they held in the old days when they had very little to do in comparison with councils of to-day.

In regard to a point that has already been raised by Deputy Smith, I agree with the principle of Section 17, the establishment of estimates committees and giving them statutory authority. While agreeing with the principle, I think, like Deputy Smith, that the manner in which it is proposed to operate it is not a workable proposition. Take, for instance, Donegal County Council. We have a system working at the moment which is a purely voluntary co-operative system between ourselves and the manager and which, if given statutory effect, would be an ideal system. I think that is what is aimed at in the section but, from the way it is worded, the section is not very clear.

Our system is, briefly, that we set up an estimates committee to which the manager, guided by his officials from the various branches of the county council, brings the estimated demands on our finances for the coming year. Having got those demands made out in detail, we then sit down and we take time —someone on the other side of the House suggested we would have to take time in the future—to consider these demands; we take approximately four full days on estimates in conjunction with the various executives of the different sections of the county council and with the manager in attendance. We go through the estimated demands for the coming year. We query any item that we think should be lower. In some cases we may think the demand is not adequate. If general agreement is got around the table amongst the seven, eight or ten members appointed as an estimates committee, the manager, in consultation with the officer in charge of the particular section, usually agrees to try to reduce by a reasonable amount the figure set down, if that is considered desirable by the committee; on the other hand, if a good case is made, the estimated demand may be increased. That system operates very well in our county. Under the present measure statutory authority could be given for such a system.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but would the Deputy look at sub-section (2) of Section 9?

Mr. Blaney

I am dealing now with paragraph 5 of the White Paper which has been circulated to us. Will it operate in the way in which it is outlined there?

Mr. O'Donnell

No. That is merely a brief memorandum. Would the Deputy look at sub-section (2) of Section 9?

Mr. Blaney

I am afraid that is not exactly the point I am trying to make.

Mr. O'Donnell

If I misconstrued the Deputy, I am sorry.

Mr. Blaney

Paragraph 5 of the White Paper provides that a local authority shall elect from amongst its members an estimates committee, and it goes on:—

"It will be the duty of the estimates committee to prepare the annual estimate of expenses and to furnish the members of the local authority with financial statements in such manner and at such intervals as the local authority may direct."

That is the explanation of the section to which I refer and that procedure is the procedure which I think is unworkable. My fear is that it will work in a negative way because it will be the duty of the estimates committee under this to produce the estimates: in other words, to make up the estimates for the year. That is different from the system which I know now works very well in my own county; that is the system whereby the manager prepares the estimates in advance, presents them to the committee and lets the committee fine-comb them; and subsequently, the results of that examination are presented as a joint effort to the council. It appears to me, though I may be under a misapprehension, that this proposed committee will actually be expected in the first instance to provide a detailed estimate of expenditure for the year, or to bring out a balance sheet at any other time at which they may be requested to do so by the council.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps this matter could be argued on the Committee Stage.

Mr. Blaney

Probably the Chair is correct in that. I am not really localising the matter; I am merely pointing out an instance where the system works exceedingly well and the manner in which it works. That is a system to which I would like to see legislative authority given. Perhaps it would be better to leave this until the Committee Stage, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has suggested, but I hope I have conveyed to the Minister some idea of what I have in mind. Any change he can bring about without adversely affecting the principle underlying the idea would meet the requirements, I think, of quite a number of people on this side of the House.

In relation to the conferences held by the Minister, I agree that the idea of going to the county councils was a very good idea. It had, however, the defect that only the chairmen and vice-chairmen of committees were invited to attend; it so happened in Donegal that the vice-chairman was not invited.

Mr. O'Donnell

I hope the Deputy understands the reason.

Mr. Blaney

I understand it, but I still think that had there been a greater number of selected members present the results might have been even more satisfactory. But, as things are now turning out, I do not think we will hold that against the Minister or his Department.

There is one matter upon which I would like to have some clarification. I have referred to it on previous occasions. Possibly it is covered in the Bill in a roundabout way. In connection with the letting of houses, Section 2 provides that the manager shall inform the members of the local authority of his proposals. I have no wish to have the letting of cottages given back to councils as such. I believe the present system should continue in operation, with this added safeguard: at the present time the county medical officer of health draws up his list; the manager goes through that. Now the safeguard I wish to have added is that, before the manager finally makes his order, the list should be presented to the council so that if members of the council have any information at their disposal which might have the effect of altering the agreed priority, that information can be given before the order is actually made. I understand that such an order, once made, is irrevocable.

Mr. O'Donnell

Section 2 provides for that.

Mr. Blaney

That is all I want. Taking the Bill in general, as I started so shall I finish, by congratulating the Minister on bringing this measure before the House and removing these matters out of the political ambit for the future.

Mr. D. Larkin

We welcome the introduction of the present measure in so far as it goes one step further towards putting power back into the hands of local representatives and, in doing so, removes a little more of the power out of the hands of the appointed managers. However, I am somewhat worried as to whether or not under sub-section (3) the manager does not still retain all his powers because in sub-section (2) provision is made for the council to direct the manager to report on his proposals; mark, he is only to report. Now sub-section (3) quite definitely and clearly excludes certain of his functions. I feel that particular section can do with some further examination.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

With regard to the provisions in the Bill concerning the appointment by local authorities of estimates committees I am inclined to agree to some little extent with Deputy Smith when he expressed the view that there might be some difficulty in carrying out the provisions in full. However, I would suggest that where the Bill provides that the estimates committee in certain cases would consist of one-third of the members, this provision might be amended and the local authorities themselves afforded an opportunity of fixing the number to be appointed to the estimates committee. It is true that certain authorities do examine the estimates each year very carefully but there has been a difficulty. The difficulty exists up to the present—and I think will exist until this Bill goes through the House—that the estimates being examined by the committee are the estimates produced and submitted by the city or county manager. Those estimates already have been prepared in many cases by principals of the various departments and have been submitted most likely to the manager. They may have been improved upon or they may have been increased.

The Bill, in providing an opportunity for the elected members of the local authority to discuss the actual preparation of the estimates and to discuss, before the final draft is made, the proposed expenditure under every heading each year, is I think doing a service. Whether the local authority concerned operates these provisions or not is a matter for the particular local authority. Provision is made whereby, if the local authority fails to do so, the preparation of the estimates will be carried out in time to have them passed. The Bill does provide certain improvements to the various Management Acts. It does provide some little restoration of powers to the councils and for those reasons I welcome its introduction. I would, however, conclude on the note on which I opened— that I feel sub-section (3) of Section 2 might be examined again with a view to ensuring that a power which is apparently given to the elected representatives is in fact a reality and not an illusion.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am quite satisfied with the Bill, too, and should like to congratulate the Minister on not having put into it things which were threatened and foreshadowed as a result of previous references. We had before the House last year a similar Bill and in view of the fact that we had a similar Bill which passed at Second Reading, people were inclined to think from references made by the Minister time and again that this Bill would propose drastic amendments to the much maligned Managerial Act.

Mr. O'Donnell

It comprises every single, solitary recommendation made by the Donegal County Council.

Mr. J. Brennan

So it does. That is the reason why I congratulated the Minister because he did not include the things he had threatened and which we were led to believe might have been included in this Bill. If he had said we were satisfied with the Bill before the House already we would expect just the Bill we have got. We are glad to have got that. I agree with most of what is in it, but when the Minister made references to serious changes which he proposed to make we all awaited something much more drastic. We are glad we did not get that kind of a Bill and congratulate the Minister that he did not succumb to those early temptations to which he gave expression at the outset. This Bill does nothing more than give statutory effect to what was already in practice where there was goodwill between managers and elected representatives. That is exactly what this Bill is and that is what the Bill introduced by the Minister's predecessor also included. It may not be the practice in all counties to have consultations between the managers and the local authorities; it may not be the practice in certain counties for the managers to take into their confidence the members of the local authorities, but in so far as I can see the provisions in this Bill give statutory effect to what was already in practice in counties where good relations existed between the managers and the elected representatives.

To my mind that is a vindication of the Managerial Act and I should like to reiterate what Deputy Blaney has said that we welcome this Bill in so far as it signifies the approval of the anti-Fianna Fáil sections of the House of the Managerial Act. Often we had to contest local elections in the past knowing that in every election since the managerial system came into existence we had to listen to candidates representing themselves as opposing the managerial system by their frequent allegations that they were deprived of powers; that it was not their fault that people were deprived of powers which the local representatives should have; that Fianna Fáil were responsible for that incongruous Act. Naturally the inference to be drawn from that type of campaign was that at the first opportunity the County Management Act would disappear. The present Minister and anyone who has any common sense must know that, having regard to the volume of work at present being dealt with by local authorities, it would be impossible to have that work carried out by an elected body that had the same powers as elected bodies had prior to the enactment of the County Management Act. It simply could not be done.

In his opening statement the Minister referred to powers which local authorities had under the County Management Act and said that Section 29 of the 1940 Act was not invoked. That is quite true. We felt that, while it was not necessary to invoke those powers, the powers provided for in that section served a useful purpose. The very fact that the manager and the elected representatives knew that those powers existed was in itself a safeguard and obviated the necessity to invoke the powers. The sections in the present Bill will serve the same purpose. It will not be necessary to invoke them because the manager will know that these powers exist and the elected representatives will know they exist. For that reason the harmony which has existed in the past will continue and the Bill we are now discussing will have no marked effect where matters were already running smoothly.

There has been contention regarding the section which requires an estimates committee to be set up. Personally I am not inclined to take the same view as some Deputies have expressed with regard to these powers. I agree that it is not necessary to have the section worded as it is but I do not take the view that the estimates committee will have to get down to it with their coats off to prepare the estimates each year. They will use the council's staff to prepare the estimates, as has been done in the past, and will go into them to see where they can be curtailed or increased and their word will be the last word so far as the estimates are concerned. That is my view about the estimates committee. At a glance one might think that is was imposing a burden on the committee which it would not be capable of performing and would not have the time to carry out.

I may on Committee Stage ask the Minister to amend that section somewhat. I do not think it is right that an estimates committee should be formed on the formation of a new council and allowed to continue until the expiration of that council's life. The estimates committee should be appointed annually and should be constituted each year at the annual meeting so that membership of the committee would rotate and members would have a chance of serving on the estimates committee. In that way all members of a local authority would have the experience of acting on the estimates committee.

Mr. O'Donnell

Sub-section (2) of Section 7 provides for that: "A local authority may by resolution revoke the appointment of an estimates committee." They may revoke it at any time. In case there is any doubt I will certainly bear the Deputy's observations in mind.

Mr. J. Brennan

It is not desirable that the same members should act on the estimates committee during the lifetime of the council. It is not necessary for me to repeat what Deputy Blaney has outlined in regard to Donegal County Council where the estimates committee is appointed each year. That estimates committee on some occasions has worked until 1 a.m. paring down estimates which had to go before the council. It is wrong to say that there was a complete rehash of all that work by the council. The general body of the council were glad to know that the estimates were reduced even by the smallest degree and their only desire was to reduce them still further. There was no rehash of all the work already done. The estimates committee were working satisfactory and were proving to be a very useful committee of the council.

There are some sections which one would like to see amended on Committee Stage. By and large, the Bill is by no means revolutionary. The tendency is to give extra powers to the elected representatives but, on the whole, the Bill is a vindication of the managerial system. Now that all Parties in the House have subscribed to the managerial system, we can settle down for all time agreed that the system is good, that it is necessary and that it shall continue.

Deputy Lynch said how brave the Minister was to face the county councils. We are a civilised group and we welcome Ministers when they visit us. I am sure the Minister secured some useful information. When one reads the Bill one is inclined to ask the Minister was his journey really necessary. Perhaps it was inasmuch as the Minister was satisfied that, with the exception of some small details, the people generally were satisfied with the managerial system as operated under the various Acts. I do not think that anybody will quarrel with it as everybody in this House admitted in the past that the Act was on trial, that it was going through a probationary period and was subject to periodical review with a view to improvement. This Bill is one of the improvements, I hope. As time goes on, other Ministers or other Governments may see fit to make further amendments so that in time it will become the perfect instrument of the local authority and the legislation will enable local authorities to carry out the increasing volume of business.

I approve of most of what is in the Bill but I expected that there would be more in it having regard to statements made by members who are now on the Government side of the House when they were in opposition. I would have liked to see some of the load removed from local authorities. I would have liked some of the burden to have been shifted to the central authority.

Mr. O'Donnell

We are trying to decentralise and I thought that was the aim of everyone in this House.

Mr. Blaney

The financial burden.

Mr. J. Brennan

Now, the Minister is well aware that taking the burden off the ratepayer depends by no means on decentralisation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not seem to have any relevance to the Bill.

Mr. J. Brennan

With all due respect to your ruling, I believe that we are entitled under this Bill to discuss the duties of local authorities. I am expressing my view that I am disappointed that the Minister has not shifted some of the increasing burden and the volume of work from the local authority to the central authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy was discussing the burden of finance a few moments ago.

Mr. J. Brennan

We must necessarily relate it to finance.

Mr. O'Donnell

The other day it was said that I was not giving them enough power.

Mr. Allen

It is worry he is discussing.

Mr. J. Brennan

One could have powers without having financial responsibilities and an increasing burden. When one considers the system whereby local authorities are financed, one fully appreciates the serious difficulties that must be faced as time goes on. I only refer in passing to a haphazard and irregular and irresponsible rating system whereby valuations are struck in one case at a very high figure on the person who is bold enough to improve a building or put up new buildings, as against the person who has the pleasure of living in an older dwelling and has not ventured to carry out any renovation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is opening up the discussion. The question of valuations does not arise on this.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am only referring to it in so far as it demonstrates the erratic means by which finances are raised from our rating system, whereby the haphazard valuations of rural Ireland——

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy is aware that poor law valuations have gone up 50 per cent. in the past two years.

Mr. J. Brennan

Some of them have gone up and some have remained static—that is where the injustice exists.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

None of it can have any relation to the Bill.

Mr. O'Donnell

But he gets it in all right.

Mr. J. Brennan

I managed to get it in, anyhow.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not try to manage anything of the sort.

Mr. J. Brennan

We will pass on and hope to discuss it another day. Really the most serious and important side of local administration is concerned, but as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle prevents me from dealing with it now I will have to wait for another opportunity.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle does not prevent you, but Standing Orders on irrelevancy prevent the Deputy.

Mr. J. Brennan

When I said I expected more drastic amendments to this Bill I had in mind some of the statements the Minister made in the past. I expected we would have no longer—mind you, it might be no harm, it is a matter of opinion—such a thing as a rate collector. The Minister was giving his well balanced view on the previous Bill just a year ago in column 1150 of the 25th February, 1954, when he said——

Mr. O'Donnell

What Bill was I discussing?

Mr. J. Brennan

The Managerial Amendment Bill introduced by your predecessor, the forerunner of the legislation we are discussing now, the unfinished symphony of the last Government.

Mr. O'Donnell

I have no doubt it was a fairly broken symphony, was it not?

Mr. J. Brennan

It is fairly well a replica.

Mr. O'Donnell

Get a lawyer to explain it and you will see the difference.

Mr. Briscoe

We have a good lawyer here and he finds great difficulty.

Mr. O'Donnell

I know he has; I just dread his explanation.

Mr. J. Brennan

I want to quote what the Minister said in discussing the previous Bill:—

"If we are going to curb the power of county managers in regard to the employment of staffs and increases in remuneration in future, I think we should give some thought to the past and to cases where redundant staffs have been employed."

The Minister goes on then to make the suggestion that the legislation should be made retrospective and suggests that rate collectors are not essential, that the rate demand could be issued through the postal service and collected in the same manner.

Mr. O'Donnell

We are giving you that power now, the very thing I said, under that Bill—if you want to exercise it.

Mr. J. Brennan

To abolish rate collectors?

Mr. O'Donnell

We are giving you that power now under the Bill.

Mr. J. Brennan

That is a very naïve way the Minister has taken to do it. Instead of doing it himself he has thrown the responsibility on the local authorities to do it.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am told all along I should give you more power.

Mr. McQuillan

That power was there already.

Mr. J. Brennan

The responsibility rests with the local authority.

Mr. McQuillan

It is there all the time.

Mr. O'Donnell

That is the proper place to have it.

Mr. J. Brennan

That may result in one county abolishing rate collectors and another county allowing them to remain, creating a position where there would be no uniformity in the system. The Minister should have been bold enough to take a definite step one way or the other.

Finally, I wish to refer to the fairness of the Bill. As some Deputies said, it is not a revolutionary one, it contains no particularly exciting proposal and merely gives statutory effect to what was already done in practice where there were good relations between the manager and the elected representatives.

Mr. Desmond

With some of the remarks of Deputy Brennan I agree. It is as we go along that we see the flaws in various Acts. We have seen them in the past and have been able to take some action. Until this Bill has been in operation for some time we will not see the points in it which need attention. It would be fantastic for anyone to suggest that it will not be necessary to have further amending legislation to improve it as time goes on. Various members have been able to get up here and discuss these things in a frank and sincere manner as members of local authorities. It is an advantage to see that we are discussing this matter, not simply as politicians but as representatives of local authorities, trying to get a system compatible with the true sense of local government.

Deputy Blaney mentioned the letting of houses. We have been continuously pointing out the importance of operating a system such as he mentioned this evening, whereby the advice and information of the members of county councils is put at the disposal of the manager and the county medical officer. If we are coming to the stage where that advice is at their disposal, they will be able to tighten up flaws that exist in various areas. That would be an advantage in supporting a measure like this. However, there will be time to discuss that on the Committee Stage. As those who have spoken already have covered most of the points, it would be fantastic for us to keep others from speaking now who may have other points to put forward.

There are two items I wish to deal with. I am interested in Section 9, which Deputy Brennan mentioned, but from a very different angle. I agree with the section, in regard to the estimates committees, but as a member of a local authority in a county with 46 members, this section could not possibly give us the satisfaction we need. We are at present dealing with estimates of the local authority for the coming financial year, amounting to about £4,000,000. We are entitled to ask the Minister, in regard to the setting up of the finance committees, with two members from each electoral area, how long they would take to do the job.

It is fantastic to set up an estimates committee unless they are going to do the job. How long would it take these members to go through and consider to the best of their ability an estimate amounting to £4,000,000 in the year? When that would be done—it is, of course, intended that during the whole discussions, which would be essential, they would get the advice of the manager or his officials—have we any guarantee that after all that length of time that those members of the estimates committee might take in going through it, it will shorten the discussion on the estimates themselves? Personally, I believe it would not. I believe it is fantastic to think that members of a local authority could, by being put on to an estimates committee, devote as much of their time as would be necessary to make a success of a committee on finance of this nature. There is no need at this stage to dwell any further on it.

The other section I would like to mention is, I think, Section 18. I fully understand the right and necessity of the managers to have the power of delegation in connection with their duties. That is essential, but I do believe that it would be more advantageous for everyone concerned —the managers, officials and members —if this power were delegated, as it were, after each election period. At the present time in the different counties we have county surveyors and if at any time the county surveyor is ill or away on leave or anything like that, the man who is taking his place is known to all the members. I have seen—as other members will have seen —orders made by a deputy for a county manager. We see those after they have been made, but we never knew that such a man was acting for the county manager. I believe it would be possible after each local election, when there will be old members going out, maybe, and new members coming in, to have it made known to the members to whom such powers are being delegated.

Mr. O'Donnell

Section 2 will give that power, Deputy.

Mr. Desmond

Yes, but my point is that I am quite prepared to say that on paper that does apply, but I am not prepared to say, bearing in mind our experience of the different interpretations which county managers and law advisers have put on these things in the past, that it will apply in practice.

Finally I should say this. The members are satisfied. Deputy Brennan said he was pleased it did not go any further. As a whole the members agree there are certain advantages in this Bill. Under Section 4 we had problems which we thought might arise and at first glance it did not seem it would be of any help in solving them but we now believe we can utilise that section to the advantage of the local authorities and the people whom they represent. One thing which is missing in this Bill and to which I would like to draw special attention, is that there is no mention whatsoever in it about one association that we hear a good deal about and that we all know carries out some extraordinary functions and extraordinary decisions. This is a City and County Management Bill and we realise that without a manager we could not have such a Bill, but I still say that if we are to have local government as we want it, and if we are to have democracy as we want it, for the betterment of the system of local government in this country we should have less of the county manager's association. It is not what is being done in the open that worries some of us; it is what can be done between a Minister and his Department and such an association. Even at the present time, a trade union or any such negotiating body is supposed to have a negotiating licence, but can any Minister for Local Government or any other Minister show where there is such a thing as a negotiating licence for this association? I am worried about this because I believe some of us are in an extraordinary position when we speak on this Bill because we have had the happy experience of having had the co-operation of good managers, but that does not relieve us of our responsibility in connection with this Bill. As long as there is a county managers' association operating behind closed doors, as long as circulars can go from the Minister and his Department to that association, we are not going to have proper local government in this country. I know the Minister believes he is doing well in introducing this Bill and we are hoping for the best, but inside this House, perhaps, as well as outside some of us are determined to make it quite clear to the Minister, his Department and the county managers that because of our determination to make local government the success we want it to be we will have to make sure that everything possible we can do to smash the grip of the county managers' association in this country will be done by us as members of local authorities.

Mr. McQuillan

This question of amending the County Management Act has been under discussion for many a year now and to my recollection the first experience I had of this matter was in 1948 when it was a subject in the general election campaign. The inter-Party Government between 1948 and 1951 made efforts to amend the Management Act and they had introduced a Bill towards the end of their term of office. However, the inter-Party Government fell before that Bill they introduced had a chance to be enacted and become law. When Fianna Fáil took over office in 1951 they also expressed themselves as being anxious to bring in amending legislation to restore more power to the local authorities, to the county councils, and they introduced their measure in 1953. An extraordinary thing was that that Government fell shortly afterwards. So I hope there is nothing significant about the fact that this is the third introduction of such legislation and I hope on this occasion the measure will become law, even though, as Deputy Brennan, I think, has already suggested what will become legislation by this Bill is already in operation in many local authorities wherever a reasonable county manager has been in charge.

The intention behind the Bill, I gather, is to restore the democratic rights of the people and of their representatives, but, to my mind, what is contained in this measure is really something to flatter the ego of the various councillors. It will give them an idea, in time for the local elections, that far more power will lie in their hands, but I wonder if local representatives who make a study of this measure and realise the implications of certain sections will be so anxious to offer themselves again. Up to this, the county manager was a very suitable cockshot. He could be used on many occasions by the local representatives, but there is one section in this Bill dealing with the estimates committee which is going to pin down the councillors and under which the responsibility for increases that may take place will be laid at the door of the councillors and the county manager can no longer be blamed.

This estimates committee which it will be mandatory on a council to set up may sound very attractive and desirable, in that the council watch-dogs will be there to pare, to inspect and to cut expenditure and to act generally as watchdogs for the ratepayers. We all know that in recent years tremendous sums of money are expended by local authorities, and if these large sums are to be expended and if we are to have efficient and speedy day to day administration, we must have some form of effective control in a local authority which is capable of acting immediately. If this estimates committee is to function successfully, I believe it must meet at least once a week and I do not know if that will be possible. It may be possible in urban areas, but it is a horse of a different colour where the rural areas are concerned.

This estimates committee will meet and many of the councillors will have no technical knowledge or ability to deal with the problems facing them in the matter of expenditure. The county manager, I presume, will sit in on the deliberations and I should like to know at this stage on whose side the county manager will be. If this estimates committee is to function as many of us would like to see it functioning it will be necessary to have practically a financial adviser or a group of financial advisers or experts available to it, apart altogether from the council officers. I do not intend that remark as any criticism of the action of council officers, but they are subject to the control of the county manager and it might not suit them to express their views openly to an estimates committee, if these views did not coincide with the opinions or outlook of the county manager and I see a grave difficulty there for this committee. They will be up against it immediately if they are to meet the council employees—they are skilled men with years of experience and training in their particular line—and it might be asked how eight or ten men who can only devote themselves in a part-time way to the vast amount of work that is entailed hope to be able to put their arguments across or to put their case across against these experts.

The system up to the present has been that the estimates are prepared by the county manager, or by the officers under his control, and he puts them together and presents them to the council. There is a general criticism and a hullabaloo at council meetings when the time comes for striking the rate and all sorts of suggestions are made as to what can be pared down, what item can be removed and what item can be postponed until the following year, but at the back of each county councillor's mind is the knowledge that the county manager is responsible, that it is his responsibility to prepare the estimates and the responsibility of the council members to try to suggest where reductions can be made in so far as they are capable of making suggestions along particular lines. The county manager now can sit back. The estimates committee will have to prepare the estimates, and, when the general meeting takes place, the county manager can say to the committee: "Gentlemen, these estimates are your baby now and not mine". I will come back to that at a later stage.

I want to refer to something which is not in the Bill and, first, I want to deal with the question of politics in local administration. Fianna Fáil have always maintained that politics should enter into local administration, in so far as the members who go forward on their Party ticket follow through in a smaller way with the major policies of the Party. Personally, I believe that the less politics we have in local government, the better. That is, of course, only an opinion, but I feel that if councillors' minds are working along political lines and if councillors are ready to jump at certain little political attractions, for the sake of an argument, their minds are not concentrating on the work for which they were elected. At times, it is a godsend to a county manager and others to have these little political bickerings going on because it gives the administrative staff an opportunity to slip across items on an agenda as quickly as can be, while, perhaps, a heated argument between two political groups is going on.

The Minister, before he introduced this measure, went around to all the local authorities and listened in a democratic way to the views expressed and I presume he felt that it was not desirable to incorporate a section which would preclude Deputies from taking part in the deliberations on local government. If that decision has been arrived at as a result of the overall view of the country, we will have to bow to that majority view, but, in my short experience of local government, I have found that Deputies on a local authority line up on a somewhat similar basis to that which is to be seen in this House. If there is a T.D. who happens to be a member of the Party with a majority, he will act as the leader of that section and a Deputy who is a member of the Opposition Party will act as Opposition leader in the local authority. The majority of the county councils will line up under a Party Whip just the same as in this House. I do not like that. I think it is wrong. If the Minister had a look at how the business is conducted in Roscommon County Council he would find that there is no such thing as an overall majority. The inter-Party Government have not got it. Fianna Fáil have not got it. It is held by the Independents. As a result of that I think it will be agreed by other members of the county council that we have very little political bickering on this county council because neither one side nor the other is in a position to enforce its views.

I want to express disappointment so far as I am personally concerned that there is not some effort made in this measure to cut out the political business in regard to local authorities. I can see the Minister's difficulty, especially in view of Deputy Mulcahy's recent statement at the Ard-Fheis, that in these particular local elections Fine Gael were going to contest them on an out and out basis to remove the majorities of Fianna Fáil. If the Minister's own Party leader issues Party policy on these lines, I can see the reason why it would be impossible in a measure of this sort to make provision whereby Deputies would be debarred from taking their seats on local authorities.

There is another matter to which reference was made and that is the appointment of rate collectors. The one function that has been left to local authorities all through is the power to appoint rate collectors. I do not think there was any greater curse in local authorities than this power of appointing rate collectors. I tried on a number of occasions by motion in our own council in Roscommon to ensure that wherever a vacancy occurs the rates would be collected by post and that no fresh appointments of rate collectors would be made. I discussed the matter with several councillors. They all seemed agreeable but when it came to taking a decision I suppose they felt that they should hold on to the one power they had. They decided a number of rate collectors would be appointed. There were actually seven appointed in one group in the last couple of years.

Mr. James Tully

Who selects them —the Independents?

Mr. McQuillan

They ganged up. Both sides came together but I can assure the House that when it came to the actual appointments no criticism could be levelled. All Parties got a fair crack of the whip.

Mr. Corry

They all voted.

Mr. McQuillan

I feel very strongly on this question of rate collectors for this reason. Next Monday in our own county council in Roscommon we have to appoint two. For the last six months it was nearly impossible to get to bed at night with streams of potential candidates.

Mr. O'Donnell

Postpone the appointments until after the local elections.

Mr. Kennedy

Rate collectors are better paid than Cabinet Ministers now with the poundage.

Mr. McQuillan

There is more interest taken in the appointment of these collectors than there is in the actual rate struck. Councillors are taken away from their rightful duties and they are annoyed by constant pestering by these applicants. The result is that many things can happen in a county council due to the fact that the councillors' attention has been diverted to the selection of candidates. It provides a topic for the countryside for months on end. I would like to see a section in this Act making it clear that wherever a vacancy occurs in future for a rate collector it would be filled by post. We do not need to interfere with any of the present rate collectors at all. Let them carry on as they are. That should be carried out all over the country.

Mr. Kennedy

Amalgamate.

Mr. McQuillan

I think it is wrong to have different systems in operation.

Mr. O'Donnell

If the Deputy wishes to put down an amendment to that effect, I will leave it to a free vote of the House.

Mr. McQuillan

I will take advantage of that offer. I will leave the matter at that. In conclusion, there is one point I want to come back to. I think there would not be any criticism worth while of the managerial system, as such, if the first loyalty of the managers appointed up to the present was to the local authority. If that loyalty was there; if the managers acted as advisers and watch-dogs for the local authorities and helped to push the Custom House further away from the local authority, then I do not think we would have any need for this legislation. But from what I can see in my short experience the county managers are under the thumbs of the moguls in the Custom House. No matter what the views of the local representatives may be and no matter how strongly a council may feel in a particular matter, if the Minister for Local Government or some of his officials take up the phone in the Custom House and ring up the county manager that is the end of it so far as the local authority is concerned.

It is very hard, even at this stage, to know, when the Managerial Act was introduced, whether the idea was to gather more power into the Custom House and at the same time give the idea to the local authorities that plenty of power was still left in their hands. It was a good thing for the Minister or the Department of Local Government to be able to contact within an hour every county manager in Ireland and get into operation the policy of the Custom House. That is the reason why that view and that outlook prevented the County Managerial Act from being a success and which caused so much dissatisfaction throughout the country.

If we could get back to the stage where the county manager's first loyalty was to the local authority and so forth much would be achieved. I will instance a proof for the Minister of what I said. Not so long ago a certain county manager—I think it was in Monaghan—commented on the question of the supply of books in a particular library. To my mind it was a very fair comment. A number of craw-thumpers did not like——

Mr. O'Donnell

What does the Deputy mean by "craw-thumpers"?

Mr. McQuillan

——the statement. The next thing I discovered was that the Minister for Local Government gave a rap on the knuckles to this county manager. Is it not quite clear that it is the Minister for Local Government who is the real boss?

Mr. O'Donnell

With respect, I merely commented on the statement he made. I am sure I am quite entitled to comment on the statement a county manager makes.

Mr. McQuillan

If I thought the Minister was going to adopt that line, I would have produced his statement.

Mr. O'Donnell

I merely commented on what he said.

Mr. McQuillan

The Minister took that county manager to task for the statement. He definitely did. I do not think the Minister was entitled to do so. The only reason I mentioned it was to show that as far as the managers are concerned generally they must look to the Custom House for advice and not to the local authority. The county manager on that particular occasion was thinking of the financial situation, and how money could be saved for the local authority. He was told otherwise by the Minister. I will not take up the time of the House except to say that I welcome the measure even though it is not very revolutionary. I want to thank the Minister for his suggestion in connection with submitting an amendment regarding the appointment of rate collectors.

Mr. Allen

When this Bill was circulated to the House Deputies read it, and expected to see a lot of revolutionary changes.

Mr. O'Donnell

Would the Deputy suggest one thing he would like, and see if it is not in it?

Mr. Allen

My last statement was a preface to my further remarks, and I hope the Minister does not object. We expected it because of the pronouncements of the Minister since he assumed office. One of the reasons was the pronouncements made by groups that supported the Minister. Because of the criticisms which came mainly from groups that supported him we and the country expected to see some revolutionary proposals in the Bill. Now the Minister——

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not think they were ever as bitter against it as the Deputy was.

Mr. Allen

If the Minister would not interrupt I would be better able to proceed.

Mr. O'Donnell

All right, I will interrupt no more.

Mr. Allen

We were all relieved, anyhow, when we got the Bill, and we saw for the first time in ten or 12 years that the County Management Act which it is proposed to amend by this Bill, was being accepted. For the first time it is the fundamental local government law which will enable local authorities to carry out their functions as members of a local authority. So far so good. I am speaking for myself and I believe to a great extent for the members of my Party.

The County Management Act was a piece of legislation which enabled local authorities to carry out their functions very fully. I always believed that. As a member of a local authority I saw that under the County Management Act the council was restricted in no way in carrying out their democratic functions fully. Under the Act county councils met once a month. It was their duty to deliberate and make certain decisions. Afterwards they handed over to that day month to the secretary of the county council, the county engineer and the principal officers of the council. The management of the council's affairs was never detrimental to the best interests of the county. Actually it took a lot more time. The members of the local committees had much more time than they have at present to deal with day to day things with which the county manager now deals.

As a member of a local authority I know that when the County Management Act came into operation a general purposes committee was appointed. Each year for the past ten or 12 years they met about five, six or seven days to consider the estimates. They considered every single iota of which the estimate was composed. They had full detailed information in respect of every item. We insisted, and had no difficulty in doing so, that the county manager, the secretary and the other officers provided us with every bit of information required. The Minister's proposals in this Bill put that into official form, so to speak. What has happened in Donegal—I heard Deputy Blaney and Deputy Brennan saying that—has happened with other county councils. In the same way they had full power under the County Management Act to insist that the county manager provide them with all the information required, and they had full power to consider the estimates in detail before they came to the estimates meeting. As a result of our deliberations in my council we always succeeded in reducing the county manager's estimate. We were often enabled to do that because we made him show cause why he required that particular demand he was making on the council.

I think under Section 7 the Minister proposes to empower a county council to set up—I think it say they "may"— may do.

Mr. O'Donnell

"Shall."

Mr. Allen

I think it is obligatory on them to set up an estimates committee, and prepare an estimate. I would suggest to the Minister that the wording of this section is in many ways unfortunate. He does not say that the secretary of a county council should lay before them proposals for an estimate.

Mr. O'Donnell

Indeed he does, and the county manager can provide them with any assistance they may require.

Mr. Allen

If it is in the section it is quite all right, if this is what it would mean. The Minister winds up the section by saying that the county manager may prepare an estimate. He does not add to the reserved functions of the council in this respect, except in so far as they may be by resolution under Section 19. But the Schedule of reserved functions is not added to.

Mr. O'Donnell

Did you read Section 19?

Mr. Allen

I read Section 19 and I think it is only referring to Section 4 of the Bill. But when more power is being given to the council it probably should have been set out in the Schedule of reserved functions. In the present Act one of the reserved functions is the making of the rate, and in making a rate the local authority had all the time necessary for considering the estimate in detail in order to make that rate. When the County Management Act came in first, I want to respectfully suggest, it was regulations made by the Minister for Local Government which interested councils more than anything else. The requirement is still there. Under the 1940 Act all the information a manager need give was under five or six headings. That requirement was made by the Minister for Local Government——

Mr. O'Donnell

Under this Bill he can give any information which they may require.

Mr. Allen

But there is no provision in the Bill, there is no provision in the regulations made under the 1940 Act, that he must give detailed information to the members of the council.

Mr. O'Donnell

Section 27 of the original Act has not been revoked.

Mr. Briscoe

Under this Bill, if the council disagree with him, he can refuse to accept their disagreement, and go on, on his own.

Mr. O'Donnell

On the estimates.

Mr. Allen

The regulations made by the Minister, I would suggest, have to a great extent overridden that as far as local government is concerned.

Mr. O'Donnell

Then they would be ultra vires.

Mr. Allen

If they were put in such a way——

Mr. O'Donnell

You cannot put anything in "in such a way".

Mr. Allen

Many of us have experience of that. We know what can happen by regulation. We know about other regulations that were made by the Minister for Local Government. For instance, under regulations district charges were made county-at-large charges. There are many things that could happen by giving the Minister for Local Government the right to make regulations. I was discussing this estimates committee. I want to suggest to the Minister that he appears to be giving them certain powers but at the same time he is taking those powers away from them by providing that the manager can object, under any heading, to any estimate that the finance committee think is sufficient for the expenses of that particular section of local government administration.

Mr. O'Donnell

The council can still strike the rate.

Mr. Allen

He may disagree.

Mr. O'Donnell

Of course, he may.

Mr. Allen

And he can make a rate himself.

Mr. O'Donnell

He cannot. The local authority are the only people who can strike a rate.

Mr. Allen

He can prepare an estimate.

Mr. O'Donnell

They are two different things.

Mr. Allen

If the council refused to make an estimate I assume the same council would refuse to pass the manager's estimate. I think that section would need to be clarified before it can function smoothly.

Mr. O'Donnell

If the Deputy will look at the section he will see that it is only where the committee fail to present an estimate that the manager presents one.

Mr. Allen

Present an estimate that pleases the manager. Is that not what it means?

Mr. O'Donnell

It is not.

Mr. Allen

I may be wrong but I read that into it. I would like the Minister to look that up. The section as it is may be the cause of friction between the council and the manager, and what the Minister sets out to do may not altogether operate. With regard to the selection of the committee I would suggest to the Minister that it should embody either on Report or Committee Stage a provision that the members should be selected through some system of proportional representation of the whole council. I think that would give fair representation to all.

Mr. O'Donnell

What about Deputy McQuillan's area where there are non-politicians?

Mr. Briscoe

Independents become politicians very quickly.

Mr. Allen

The Americans have a very apt phrase for those people who like to describe themselves as non-politicians: "They do not belong." Anyone who sets out to describe himself as a non-politician does not belong. Everybody is a politician, at least I hope he is. I hope everyone takes an interest in public affairs in this country. If a man says to me: "I take no interest in politics" I know very quickly that he is not on my side. This man tries to put a white sheet around him and pretend——

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy come back to the Bill?

Mr. Allen

I know what Deputy McQuillan was speaking about. Other than in the appointment of rate collectors, or something like that, I never saw any politics in local authorities. Once they are elected they function as a body.

Mr. O'Donnell

Why have politics at all if they finish on election day?

Mr. Allen

There is no politics in the elections.

Mr. O'Donnell

Did you read Deputy Lemass?

Mr. Allen

Did you read the speech of the Minister for Education, Deputy Mulcahy? The Minister for Local Government went around the country telling members of local authorities that in his opinion Deputies or Senators should not be members——

Mr. O'Donnell

He told them no such thing; he merely sought their advice.

Mr. Allen

I read it on the public press.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow this discussion to continue. It has no reference to the matter that is in the Bill or what should be in the Bill.

Mr. Allen

If the Minister wanted no Deputies or Senators as members of local authorities it should be in the Bill.

Mr. O'Donnell

He did not want any such thing. He merely sought the advice of the country.

Mr. Davin

And took it.

Mr. Allen

With regard to this finance committee, as far as the council of which I happen to be a member is concerned I see no objection to the section, Section 7, except that it should be redrafted——

Mr. O'Donnell

If the Deputy likes to put down an amendment to redraft——

Mr. Allen

——to make it plain as to the functions of the manager, of the council and also of the council's staff, that they should prepare the estimate and the members of the finance committee consider and recommend it to the whole council.

Mr. O'Donnell

I have no doubt the Deputy can amend it much better than I.

Mr. Allen

Not nearly as well. The functions should be carefully divided. The staff of the council should prepare the estimate for consideration by the finance committee and the finance committee report as a result of their deliberations to the whole council. A while ago I spoke about matters prescribed by the Minister under the Act. Section 9 (1) says:—

"An estimates committee shall, in each local financial year, prepare during the prescribed period and in the prescribed form an estimate..."

This form prescribed under the Act of 1940 just shows a bulk amount under five or six headings. It is no advantage to the whole council for the finance committee to prepare an estimate in that form because it gives them no information. There are five or six well-known headings under which an estimate is prepared, and if it is the only function of the finance committee of the council to report to their council in the approved form, they will get very little information, not nearly as much as they are getting at the present time.

In his opening remarks the Minister promised to send a memorandum to members of local authorities all over the country with regard to the provisions of the Management Act. I want to suggest that he should go a little further and send out a much more elaborate memorandum dealing with local government law in general.

Mr. O'Donnell

When I come to do the other Bills I will probably do that, but I have confined it to this one for the moment.

Mr. Allen

It would be a good idea to widen it to that extent. The Management Act is only a very small part of the code of local government law under which local authorities are asked to administer different Acts. With regard to the preparation of the estimates and the powers of the local authority to vary the estimates in any respect I said in the House on other County Management Bills that almost 90 per cent. of the total estimate of any county was statutory and no local authority had any power whatever over it.

Mr. Davin

Does that apply to roads?

Mr. Allen

It applies to most things. Take, for instance, mental hospitals. I would point out that 97 per cent. of the costs of running a mental hospital are statutory: wages, salaries, pensions, food, clothing, maintenance. There was very little a finance committee could do about statutory charges. Health services: there is little or nothing they can do in that respect beyond getting full details of the cost of every single item of the services. They might not provide as much as might be required. With regard to home assistance, they would probably have some power to cut or increase the estimate. They have power in that respect and they have that power at the moment without reference to the manager at all. Housing: they have power in regard to money for repairs to houses but not as regards loan charges, and so forth. Roads: they have certain limited powers there. They must provide for the wages of the workers in their employment. They must provide for the officers, the engineers and for everybody concerned on the roads. If you like, they can determine what they will spend on repairs—in other words, what materials or what number of workers they will provide over and above the number already designated for pension or superannuation purposes, what machinery they will buy and so forth. However, from year to year it varies very little indeed. With regard to the amount of power they will wield in that respect, I would point out that even local authorities before them had very little. Generally, every local authority provided their road estimate, that is, what they believed was reasonable to carry on the service. They bear in mind what the total rate will be for their particular county. They would be more liberal if they felt the rate would not be too great a burden on the ratepayer.

Mr. Davin

They are not compelled to pay so much on county roads, for instance.

Mr. Allen

About 90 per cent of the total amount spent by the local authority is semi-statutory. There is one other section here which deals with remuneration or increasing the number in the employment of the council. I have a very grave doubt in my mind about that section. First and foremost, I cannot see any advantage in it to the employees of the council. If the County Management Act did one good thing from the point of view of all officers and servants of local authorities it improved their status. They are reasonably uniform all over the country. It was much easier for the representatives of the employees to deal with two or three dozen county managers than to have to deal with 500 or 600 local authorities. You have the uniform scales of remuneration applicable to all clerical officers——

Mr. Davin

Is the Deputy aware that there are different rates for two counties where the same county manager is supervising?

Mr. Allen

There is very little difference in the rates for clerical officers or engineers or medical officers——

Mr. Davin

There are different rates in Carlow-Kildare, different rates in Laoighis-Offaly——

A Deputy

Is the Deputy talking of road workers?

Mr. Allen

I will come to that in a second. All clerical officers and all professional officers have, I think, uniform rates over the whole country. In my view, that is desirable. With regard to road workers, I would say that generally there is very little difference. There is a small variation in the rates of wages, here and there, but it does not vary very much. I suppose it is higher around Dublin and Cork. Otherwise it does not vary to any great extent. I suppose that some are slower than others in coming up to the higher rate.

I feel that the question of the remuneration of all officers and servants should have been left in the hands of the county managers. Members of local authorities know quite well that it is the one function the managers did not like to perform: it was a bit difficult for them at times. They would love to throw it back on the members of the local authority: they would love them to do something they should do themselves. In my opinion, it is much better that the managers should negotiate with the representatives of the particular section of the employees—whatever section it may be—and fix the scale and have the scale reasonably uniform in the whole country. It is bad for the employees and bad for the councils to throw this back, as it were, in the melting pot. I will go a bit further and say that I fear this provides an opportunity to sections of councils to make political propaganda at councils' meetings. That is all the good that this can do. With regard to numbers——

Mr. Davin

Is the Deputy aware that, linked up with the section he is now discussing, there is a proposal to amend the Industrial Relations Act, which affects the whole thing?

Mr. Allen

It is not set out here. If it is proposed to set up an arbitration board, I cannot see any sense in this.

Mr. James Tully

On a point of order. The section does not do what the Deputy suggests. It does the opposite.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Allen

The section proposes to give power to the council in certain respects. The manager cannot increase or decrease the remuneration of the members of the staffs without coming to the council. Is that not so?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is really a Committee point.

Mr. Dunne

That is not what Deputy Allen has been talking about.

Mr. Allen

The Parliamentary Secretary told me just now that it is proposed to amend the Industrial Relations Act, that all these officers and servants of local authorities——

Mr. Davin

I did not say "officers".

Mr. Allen

Where does the council come in? With regard to numbers, I believe the provision in this Bill is sound. It is something on which there is often friction between the management and members of the local authority—especially as to the numbers of clerical staffs and professional staffs in his employment. To prevent him from bringing on as many professional or clerical staff as he thought he needed, that is a good provision in itself. I agree with it, but I do not agree that the onus, which is at present on the manager of deciding the terms of appointment and the conditions of employment, should be taken out of his hands. They should be made to perform their function in that respect whether it is onerous or popular.

I do not think I need hold up the House further on the Bill. The Bill will do good, in so far as for the first time in 12 years the County Management Act is accepted on all sides of the House. It is accepted as the fundamental law under which local authorities perform their functions. It may, of course, be amended, as any other Act of the Oireachtas can be amended, at some future time. If these amendments proposed by the Minister are accepted by all sections of the community, that fact in itself is something to be grateful for. I hope the Minister will be luckier than two of his predecessors were in the two Bills which they introduced to amend the Act. He is not, I hope, a superstitious man, otherwise he might be influenced by the fact that two of his predecessors who introduced a Bill to amend the Act went out of office before the Bills could be passed into law and after the elections they were no longer Ministers. Even though the Minister comes from a part of the country in which there is said to be a good deal of superstition—the North of Ireland —he is obviously not superstitious having regard to that fact.

I want again to draw attention, though it may not be in order on this Bill, to the regulations made by Ministers for Local Government under different Acts. They are never made in consultation with members of local authorities. They are made in consultation with county managers and they are not always made with a view to bending the law in favour of the local authority or to make it work smoothly. I hope the Minister will bear that in mind when he is making new regulations under this Bill.

Mr. James Tully

Since I am in the position of the hurler on the ditch—I am not a member of a local authority —I did not intend to take part in this debate.

Mr. Kennedy

You are lucky.

Mr. James Tully

Maybe I am lucky but because of some of the remarks made here this evening, I am tempted to give my views. At the outset, I do not know what Deputies who referred to the question of the appointment of rate collectors actually meant. The suggestion made by Deputy McQuillan that rate collectors should be appointed on a non-political basis seems to me to be impossible of achievement in this country at the present time. I should like to see the Minister inserting in this Bill a section which would take the power of appointment of rate collectors entirely out of the hands of local authorities because of the fact that, even inside the last few months, I have had the opportunity of watching groups of politicians jockeying for position in regard to the appointment of rate collectors and nothing seemed to matter except the political affiliations of the people who were candidates. For that reason I think the Minister should consider a change and should agree that such appointment should be left in the hands of the county manager. I also think that the allocation of houses should remain a function of the manager, since that was long a matter with which politicians played around.

Listening to the debate one thing struck me very forcibly, that no matter where one turns in this House, there appears to be general agreement on the point that there seems to be no such thing as a bad manager. It is like the old man with the pint—there may be good managers and better managers, but there is no such thing as bad managers. I am afraid I could not agree with that point of view as a trade unionist who has on occasion negotiated with a number of county managers. For that reason, I am glad to see certain sections included in the Bill. Where you come across a bad county manager, there is only one way to deal with him and that is through decent elected representatives, who will deal with him in the way he should be dealt with.

So far as the estimates committee is concerned, although I have no intimate knowledge of the administration of local authorities, I am afraid I could not agree that the estimates committee will work in the way the Minister suggests because the striking of a rate and the drawing up of estimates are matters for a group of experts who are paid for doing that job. To suggest that a group of councillors drawn from each electoral division should be set up for the purpose of drawing up estimates is, in my opinion, ridiculous because you have one of two things to consider. First the idea might be that the Party who had a majority on the council would try to have people of their own brand of politics on the committee for the purpose of doing with the estimates what they think best from the Party point of view. Then, on the other hand, you have to consider the possibility that the people who have a majority on the council would try to put their opposite numbers on the estimates committee in order to put them out of favour with the electors. The drawing up of an estimate can be a very unpopular thing, and if the responsibility can be saddled on certain people, these people would get it fairly hot when they came up for election later.

I think the last speaker was entirely wrong in the remarks he made with regard to the fixing of wages. Possibly he did not study the Bill at all because he referred to the fact that county councils would be given power under this Bill to discuss wages and the working conditions of employees of the council. That is not so, as I read the Bill and I think I read it aright. Under the present Bill, it is suggested that the local authority would have no power other than the provision of money. That, in theory, is what is happening at the present time but, in practice, it may not be so. I think it is quite as well. While I do not agree with the County Management Act, at the same time I think it wise to leave the discussion of wages a matter between county managers and representatives of the trade unions. The fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister has stated that the Labour Court will be able to intervene in cases of dispute in the near future should wipe out any difficulties that may arise in that case. For that reason, I think it is best to leave the matter as it is.

So far as reference to politics in councils is concerned, I am afraid that is something that we cannot get away from. Whether we like it or not, when certain matters arise, members of the various political persuasions will line up on their own particular side of the fence and there is nothing this House can do to prevent that. Whether or not Deputies or Senators should be members of councils is another point. I, personally, think they should. Those who do not come forward are, I think, dodging their responsibilities. People can do very good work on these councils and it is their duty to accept that responsibility if the electors elect them to the councils. That is my personal opinion. Possibly others may not agree with that opinion. I would like to compliment the Minister on the Bill and to congratulate the House on the way in which most members speaking to this measure have discussed it; they have shown thereby their willingness to co-operate in the betterment of our local government administration.

Mr. Kennedy

Deputy McQuillan discussed the appointment of rate collectors. Unfortunately I am not armed with all the facts I would like to have when taking part in this debate, but my mind goes back a couple of years when the Department suggested to us, and I suppose to other county councils too, an amalgamation of the smaller areas, the making of the rate collectorship a pensionable position and the giving of a living wage to the rate collectors themselves. The argument advanced by some that the rate collector only works for six weeks, and so forth, is beside the point. The rate collector has a big responsibility. He has care of big moneys. He has to compile the register. He has other duties. The Minister, in the course of Deputy McQuillan's speech, interrupted to tell the Deputy that if he introduced an amendment on the Bill he, the Minister, would leave it to a free vote of the House. By way of interjection at that point, I said that certain rate collectors at the present time have more pay than Cabinet Ministers. That is so in a few counties. Deputy James Tully knows what I am talking about. The poundage in some cases is immense. The point I want to develop is that if, by way of amendment to this Bill, the Department's scheme to amalgamate areas obtains, then in all new appointments there could be a fixed salary of £500, £600 or £700 plus certain emoluments for quick rate collection. The cost of collecting the rates under such a system would not be so high and there could be an inducement of 2½ per cent. to the ratepayer who would send in his rates in full direct to the council. That matter should receive consideration in relation to this Bill.

I come now to the estimates committee. I think such a committee would be very useful. In my county we have a finance committee. It meets two or three times in the year and has proved of tremendous help to the general council. It examines seriatim the various items prepared by the manager and makes a report. It prevents rambling discussion while pinpointing certain items in the estimates. I think the suggested committee would be of invaluable assistance to the councils.

In relation to the tenders committee, we were given a legal ruling under the Act at present in force that we had no right to have a tenders committee. For that reason we have never tried to exercise such a right. Now, according to the Minister, that right does exist and he has clarified the situation in this measure. I welcome that step because such a committee is very necessary. Councils are spending tens of thousands of pounds. If such committees are set up suspicions in relation to particular firms getting all the contracts will be done away with. I will leave it at that. Huge stocks of machinery are being bought by councils now for road purposes, and everything else, and those in the trade should have an opportunity of tendering in the knowledge that they will get a fair deal.

Deputy McQuillan talked about politics and the right of T.D.s to be county councillors. We have a constitutional right to be elected to any body in this State. People have that right in every democratic country in the world. We have no right to deprive our people of it. If they choose to stand as town commissioners, urban councillors, or anything else, they are perfectly entitled to do so and it would be contrary to democratic principles to try through the medium of a Bill here to deprive any Deputy or Senator of that right to be a member of a public body. With regard to keeping politics out of local councils, I am afraid my education has been sadly neglected. I do not understand the word "politics" at all. I am like Joxer Daly when he says: "What is the moon? What are the stars?" When I hear people in this House talking about politics and politicians, I go back for my philosophy to Joxer Daly. I never heard such hypocrisy talked about there being no politics in county councils. The very minute the members go into the council chamber they go in as politicians. It is a very good thing for the country that they should act in a particular way and that all the matters that arise should be debated to the fullest extent.

Summarising my approach to this Bill, I welcome the estimates committee. I have made a suggestion about rate collectors. I shall be glad to have clarification in relation to the question of tenders. Above all, I welcome the conversion of the Labour Party to the principle of the managerial system.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am doubtful if we are converted.

Mr. Kennedy

I am glad my friend, Deputy Murphy, is converted to that principle and will support this Bill; it is one of the finest things that has happened in 1955.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I take it that the purpose of this Bill is to improve local government administration. It is undoubtedly a step forward, but it is a very small step. This Bill is a somewhat bulky one, but its contents are not quite so substantial as its bulk would lead one to believe. I am an unrepentant opponent of the County Management Act, 1939, and I am sorry that the present Minister has not seen fit to bring in more drastic amendments than those contained in this measure. I hope that before this passes into law effect will be given to several vital amendments.

The County Management Act was enacted originally in order to improve local government administration. Has it achieved that purpose? I do not think it has, irrespective of what angle we view it from. It was charged at one time that members of county councils were corrupt. Are not the members of county councils elected on the very same basis as the members of this House? I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.