Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Mar 1955

Vol. 149 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Defence.

Minister for Defence (General MacEoin)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1955, for the Defence Forces (including certain Grants-in-Aid) under the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts and the Defence Act, 1954 (No. 18 of 1954), and for certain administrative Expenses in connection therewith; for certain Expenses under the Offences Against the State Acts, 1939 and 1940 (No. 13 of 1939 and No. 2 of 1940) and the Air-raid Precautions Acts, 1939 and 1946 (No. 21 of 1939 and No. 28 of 1946); for Expenses in connection with the issue of Medals, etc.; for Expenses of the Bureau of Military History; and for a Grant-in-Aid of the Irish Red Cross Society (No. 32 of 1938).

All the payments for which this Supplementary Estimate is taken can be met from savings on the other sub-heads of the Vote for Defence for the current year. The Estimate arises primarily from the fact that the original provision in sub-head Y (3), which is a Grant-Aid sub-head, is not sufficient. I will deal with that sub-head first. A sum of £16,000 has already been voted under sub-head Y (3) for grants to units of An Fórsa Cosanta Aitiúil and An Slua Muirí. This was based on a grant of 15/- per effective member of the F.C.A. and 10/- per effective member of an Slua Muirí. This method of financing the F.C.A. units was not found satisfactory as some of the smaller units did not get the minimum amount necessary for their operation, and a new scheme was brought into operation as from 1st January, 1955. This provides for the payment of grant at a flat rate of £170 per annum to each unit. To qualify for this grant each infantry unit is required to have a minimum effective strength of 150 and each non-infantry unit, a minimum effective strength of 75. Of the total of 108 units, 107 have qualified for the £170 this year, which is considered to be a satisfactory development. In addition certain balances of grant from 1953-54 have also been paid this year, bringing the total required to £21,000.

The excesses on sub-head C—Pay of Civilians attached to Units, and sub-head S—Barrack Maintenance and New Works, arise mainly from the carrying out of three building projects estimated to cost a total of £117,500 for which specific provision was not included in the original Estimate. This year the expenditure on these projects will be: Sub-head C—£33,750 for labour and sub-head S—£42,000 for materials and contract work, that is a total of £75,750. Provision for the completion of these works has been made in the Estimate for 1955-56. The necessity to devote greater attention to the ordinary repair and maintenance of barracks also contributed appreciably to the excess on sub-head C.

The excess on sub-head G—Subsistence and Other Allowances—arises from an increase in the rates of allowances payable to officers and N.C.O.s on duty with the F.C.A. and the payment of arrears of these increases with effect from 1st April, 1952.

The increased cost of compensation under sub-head U arises from accidents to Army vehicles. Expenditure under this sub-head is difficult to estimate with any degree of accuracy, and this year we were unlucky in that the payments were heavier than normal. The number of accidents, however, was not abnormal.

The increased expenditure on the Reserve under sub-head Y (2) is due to the numbers reporting for training in all components of the Reserve being greater than anticipated, particularly so in the case of the F.C.A.

All the payments for which this Supplementary Estimate is taken can be met from savings on the other sub-heads of the Vote for Defence for the current year.

Mr. Traynor

There is very little in this Supplementary Estimate that one can argue about. I am glad to find that the F.C.A. units have reached a standard where 107 out of 108 can qualify for the grant, which is almost 100 per cent. qualification. It is desirable that that should be so because as the Minister himself said on a former occasion it is on a defence unit of that kind that we might have to rely in a time of stress or danger. Beyond saying it is a desirable thing to see that development I have not much more to say. I notice that the Reserve Defence Force is coming up in very large numbers now and that the addition to the original Estimate is due to that.

There is one point I want to raise with the Minister. I did not see his statement, but I understand that, shortly after the general election, when addressing a post-election meeting at Drumlish, he made a statement to the effect that he had found, on assuming office, items to the value of—I think he mentioned £117,000—for which no authority had been secured. To my mind, that was a rather serious statement. It was only brought to my notice recently. I have not seen the statement even yet, because it was apparently published only in local newspapers. To my mind, it was a rather serious statement to make, because it was a reflection, first of all, on his predecessor who happened to be myself, and secondly, it was a reflection on the officers of the Department, because I cannot see how any Minister could start schemes to the value of £117,000 without securing full authority therefor.

My recollection of securing authority is a rather long drawn out modus operandi. For instance, you have, first of all, to get authority from the Department of Finance. Having got the authority of that Department, you then have to submit it to the Government who, in due course, give the necessary approval. Then it has to be submitted to the House which is finally responsible for giving authority for the spending of public money. That being so, I find it difficult to understand how the Minister could make that statement. It may be that he misunderstood the position at the time he made the statement. If that is so, I am sure he will make honourable amend.

Perhaps the explanation is to be found in the statement which he gave the House when introducing the original Estimate on the 16th June, 1954. He said:—

"A number of major works, including the provision of more than 80 houses for soldiers at Blackhorse Avenue, Dublin, are on hands. Three of these——"

He was speaking of the general scheme of work that was being undertaken by the Corps of Engineers. He continued:—

"Three of these—an ordnance store at Cork, a gymnasium at Galway, and certain works at Naas barracks—were to have been carried out by the Office of Public Works, but have been transferred, since the preparation of the Estimate, to the Corps of Engineers, as the Office of Public Works saw no possibility of being able to make an early commencement on them. They are, therefore, not covered by the Estimate."

I presume these are the works to which the Minister referred, but it appears that the statement created the impression that there was something in the nature of a scandal abroad. I think that the Minister ought to correct that now, if what I have read out is the true statement.

What actually happened was: the Army authorities were pressing very strongly for these works, the matter was taken up, and in due course agreement, or at least approval, for carrying out of the works was secured. It was understood then that the Office of Public Works would be in a better position to carry out the works than the Corps of Engineers, and therefore the Estimate for the Office of Public Works carried the amount in the Book of Estimates, and duly got approval in this House. Again, the position was that the Office of Public Works could not meet its commitments because of the urgent demand of the Army, and they suggested that the matter should be transferred back to the Corps of Engineers. The position then was that a sum of money had been voted to the Office of Public Works, and it was not, therefore, in the Estimate for the Department of Defence.

It would only be a matter of coming to this House with a Supplementary Estimate to get approval for the amount required. That is, when looking through this supplementary statement, beyond the sum of £23,740, I do not find anything that would be likely to cover the £117,000, unless it is included in the original Estimate of £179,019. I do not think it is. In view of the statement that this situation was discovered by the Minister, a situation in which schemes to the value of £117,000 were being undertaken without authority, and in view of the statement which I have read out which is the Minister's own explanation, I think it should clear up the situation. I hope to hear the Minister say that this is the actual position.

General MacEoin

I am glad that Deputy Traynor approves of the development of the F.C.A., and I am glad that the F.C.A. is improving in numbers and efficiency. I invite all our young men to take part in this Army force. I know that the Deputy will join in welcoming them, and assuring them of our appreciation of their services.

I do not think there is any matter I wish to refer to except this dispute between my predecessor and myself, over the matter to which he referred in the last part of his speech. When I took over the Department of Defence my objective was to effect savings as far as humanly possible, and to eliminate all sorts of things without materially affecting the efficiency of the force. I believe that I met with some success, but, having gone along a certain line, I found then that there were works in progress for which no provision was made in the Estimate of the Department of Defence. I found that there were three works amounting to £117,000, and such an amount, even in an £8,000,000 Vote, is no small matter.

I thought that, as Deputy Traynor has said, there was some provision made for it in the Office of Public Works. There was not. There was a token Vote of £600 for the Department but there was no provision made in the Office of Public Works so that I could take the money from Public Works into Defence. Therefore, the Defence Vote had to carry the work that was being done. What I said here when moving the Supplementary Estimate was that I would have to come to this House to get approval for that expenditure. The House had not, at this stage, approved of it—nor have they approved of it up to this day. This is the first time this House has had an opportunity of approving of this particular expenditure.

With the assistance of the then Tánaiste, Deputy Lemass, I was taken to task by my colleagues in Longford-Westmeath for making, as they alleged, a false statement at Drumlish. I did not make a false statement: I made a statement of fact. I am now asking the House to approve of this expenditure. It is true that, by careful management, I have been able to effect economies sufficient to cover it, but if we had to get the amount we should have—or that was visualised by my predecessors in their Vote—then, instead of coming here for a Supplementary Estimate of £10, I should be coming here for what we have been able to expend—as set out, between material and labour, a total sum of £75,750. I admit I was out that far—that the schemes visualised an expenditure of £117,000. Because of bad weather and other circumstances, we were not able to expend the £117,000 this year, but a good deal of the work has been done.

If the former Minister thinks I tried, by inference or implication, to create a scandal, I want to state here and now that I did not intend any such thing and that, if any such inference was there, I withdraw it. What I asserted was that he had undertaken an expenditure of £117,000 this year for which this House had not given its approval either in the Vote of the Office of Public Works or in the Defence Vote. In my speech at Drumlish—and I suppose that, as attention has been called to it, I am in order in making this explanation—I tried to explain why it was that I was not able to do as much as I should like to do. In my own hearing, the former Tánaiste and the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs spoke at Athlone during the general election and boasted that they were making provision for an expenditure of £60,000 on work in Athlone Barracks. They appealed to the electors of Athlone to support the people who could do such a great piece of work. I said it was very sound, if they could do it.

It was only natural that I would refer, in my reply, to their promise of £60,000 worth of employment for which this House had not voted the money. I do not assert or wish it to be inferred for a second that the former Minister for Defence was in any way responsible for any malpractice. On the contrary, I believe that he would do what I would do myself, that is, build all he could and do all he could for his troops. I was speaking on the broad general principle of making a grand bid during the general election and of the fact that the money was not provided for in the Estimate for the Department of Defence or in the Estimate for the Office of Public Works.

Mr. Traynor

I am not concerned with what anybody else said in regard to the election. My only concern is in connection with a statement that a sum of £117,000 was being expended without authority. We all know that money cannot be expended without the authority of this House.

General MacEoin

The House is only now being asked to approve of this expenditure. This is the first time.

Mr. Traynor

This is a serious situation because the Minister stated in this House, when introducing the Vote for the Department of Defence, that the Estimate was transferred from the Office of Public Works to the Corps of Engineers and that the approval was there. We cannot have it both ways. The Minister cannot make a statement here and then forego that statement unless he only read the statement when he was making it for the first time. I have before me Volume 146, No. 3, of the Official Report of Wednesday, 16th June, 1954. At columns 326-7 it is stated:—

"Three of these—an ordnance store at Cork, a gymnasium at Galway, and certain works at Naas Barracks—were to have been carried out by the Office of Public Works, but have been transferred since the preparation of the Estimate, to the Corps of Engineers as the Office of Public Works saw no possibility of being able to make an early commencement on them. They are, therefore, not covered by the Estimate."

General MacEoin

I said that three of these works were to have been carried out by the Office of Public Works but the only provision for them in the Estimate of the Office of Public Works was an Estimate for £600 for public works and buildings to meet the quantity surveyor's fees in respect of the gymnasium at Galway. I do not see how the Deputy could argue that the £600 for the surveyor's fees for the gymnasium at Galway could be translated into a new building at Athlone, the work at Naas Barracks, and so forth. When I was asked where I would get the money, I said I would have to bring in a Supplementary Estimate. I do not have to bring in a Supplementary Estimate for more money but I have to bring in a Supplementary Estimate now to get the £10 to carry it because I effected a saving in the Department.

Mr. Traynor

Actually, the Athlone project was not involved. The Minister definitely stated that the works were for Cork, Galway and Naas. There is no use in trailing in Athlone now. Athlone is the centre of the Minister's constituency. I have no doubt the Minister was fighting a stern election battle but I am not concerned with that. I am concerned only with the misrepresentation that was involved in the statement made by the Minister—a misrepresentation that, to my mind, reflected on me as a Minister and on the officials of the Department of Defence. As I have already said, neither I nor my officials could put up works for which no approval had been secured, no matter what the sum.

General MacEoin

The Deputy is quite correct. Athlone was not included anywhere but the question is when was authority given to go on with the Athlone project? So far, that authority has not been given. I hope the House will give that authority to-day.

Mr. Traynor

Is there a suggestion that I was doing anything unjust or illegal?

General MacEoin

I do not say so but I suggest the machine to which the Deputy has the honour to belong succeeded in doing, somehow, what I could not do without money.

Vote put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimates 46, 48, 54 and 56 reported and agreed to.