Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Apr 1955

Vol. 150 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—County Cork Burial Grounds.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

At Question Time to-day I asked the Minister for Local Government whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction that exists in the Ballyvourney district because of the indiscriminate rejection of applications for the right of interment in St. Gobnait's burial grounds and, if so, if he will take immediate steps to terminate this situation. The following is the reply which I received from the Minister:—

"When a burial ground is closed to further interments on grounds of public health and decency, it is the practice to refuse exemption to any person claiming right of interment who is not either—

(a) a widow or widower whose late partner in marriage is already interred there;

(b) a single person of advanced age who is the sole surviving member of his or her family.

If it appears that adequate space will be available in the grave, persons within these categories may be exempted from the terms of the Closing Order. I consider this is a most reasonable approach and in applying it to St. Gobnait's the most lenient interpretation possible has been adopted. Since the closure 52 persons in the special categories have been refused exemption. A further 88 claims were allowed because soundings of the graves indicated that the depth available was sufficient. The total number of exemptions is now 111 and although this is abnormally large any further claims on the basis indicated will be sympathetically considered."

I am completely dissatisfied with the Minister's reply. Let me preface my remarks by saying that, in dealing with St. Gobnait's burial grounds, we are not dealing with an ordinary cemetery. St. Gobnait's burial grounds are regarded as a place of sanctity and reverence and pilgrimage and the reason why that cemetery is so revered is that it contains the remains of St. Gobnait who was interred there some time about the sixth century. People from various places in County Cork and, indeed, I might say, from all over Munster make pilgrimages regularly to these burial grounds. It has been held that as a result of these pilgrimages, many cures have been effected.

The Minister is already well aware of the indignation with which his Closing Order was received by the people in the Ballyvourney district, irrespective of who or what they may be. The general opinion there is that there was no need whatsoever for this Closing Order. I have inspected the cemetery myself and I have heard the viewpoint of the residents in the district and I must say I fully agree that there was no need whatsoever for the making of this Order by the Minister. In my view, the Minister erred when, in August last, he signed this Order closing the burial grounds.

What gave rise to the Closing Order was a report from the county medical officer that, in the interests of public health and decency, St. Gobnait's cemetery should be closed. I realise very well that the county medical officer of health is probably a capable man, but I do not believe he viewed this question from the aspect of the great tradition behind this cemetery because he is not of the religious persuasion of the majority of the people in the district. That being so, he may have discounted the great tradition associated with St. Gobnait's burial grounds and which was so very forcibly put before the Minister prior to his making of the Closing Order and again subsequently.

When the Minister is replying he will probably tell me that all the people who had any grounds for objection had a right to come before the inquiry and make their case while the inquiry was being held. Some of them did. However, the Minister can visualise the difficulty involved for people of 70 and 80 years of age to come before an inquiry and to have to go before a peace commissioner and make a statutory declaration in respect of a right of interment in St. Gobnait's cemetery. I submit that that was an unfair and unjust burden to place on those people, and when I say that I am not satisfied with the findings of that inquiry I am expressing the view of practically every person in the Ballyvourney district. Deputy McAuliffe will bear me out in that statement and so will the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, who represents portion of the Ballyvourney district. Again and again, the Irish people have upheld their faith and fatherland, and they are doing so again now in this controversy. St. Gobnait's cemetery is held in reverence by the people of Ballyvourney——

Minister for Local Government (Mr. O'Donnell)

I hope every cemetery in Ireland is.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It is particularly so in the case of St. Gobnait's cemetery. It is the aim of the people of the Ballyvourney district that their remains will lie in the same grounds as lie the remains of their revered saint, St. Gobnait. The county medical officer of health was the only person who believed, at the outset, that this cemetery should be closed. He made a report to the Minister that, in the interests of public health and decency, the cemetery should be closed. For more than 1,400 years people have been buried in that cemetery. We must bear in mind the fact that the population of our country was almost three times as large as it is to-day and we can assume, therefore, that the number of burials in the past was far in excess of the number of burials that take place at the present time. The Minister cannot put forward or adduce any evidence of danger to public health or decency by reason of burials taking place there through the centuries. Now, after 1,400 years, a county medical officer of health in Cork has made this report—and the report is upheld by some inspector who was sent down by the Minister and it is upheld by the Minister himself.

When the inspector's report was submitted to the Department there was a serious delay before the signing of the declaration closing the cemetery because the Minister and his Department were aware that there were very good reasons for not making the Order. When the Order was made, the people banded themselves together for the purpose of protesting against it. They issued circulars to the Deputies representing North and West Cork constituencies. A deputation of local people, together with the Deputies in question, met the Minister some time ago. If I am interpreting correctly the viewpoint of the Minister at that meeting, he made it quite clear that all elderly people would be granted the right of interment in Ballyvourney cemetery. He also made it clear that the claims of widows, widowers and single persons of advanced age would be granted. Out of more than 600 applications only 111 have been granted and 52 persons in the special categories have already been refused the right of interment there.

I claim that that is unfair and unjust on the part of the Minister and that he did not give us a true picture of the position when we went before him as a deputation. The Minister should have explained to the local people who came to Dublin that it was within his rights and his functions, if he so decided, to refuse right of interment to these aged people and I can tell you that that refusal has been made in some cases where the people are more than 80 years of age and I can also tell the Minister on their behalf that they resent his attitude very much indeed.

The next item we have to deal with is whether this Order was justified and on whose information was it made. On whose report does the Minister say that any particular person should be denied right of interment in Ballyvourney cemetery? My information is that the Minister asked for a report through the county medical officer of health from the local health officer and that the local health officer, in conjunction with the caretaker of St. Gobnait's Cemetery, investigated every application made for interment. Let me say this much to the Minister: the people down in Ballyvourney have no faith whatever in the local caretaker.

An Ceann Comhairle

An attack may not be made on a local official under the privilege of this House. The Deputy is charging the Minister with doing certain things and his charges must be against the Minister and the Minister only.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

You did not give me time to complete my statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy said that people in that district had no faith in a particular person. That is said under the privilege of this House and the person concerned has no means of redress. The Deputy will keep his charge directed towards the Minister.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It is a pity you did not allow me to complete the sentence. The people have no faith in him because the man has been in that position for only a few years.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not alleviate the charge one iota. It is a charge against a public official under the privilege of this House.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am putting it to the Minister that he is relying for a report on the county medical officer of health. The county medical officer gets it from the health officer, but, in the final analysis, the people of Ballyvourney believe that it is the caretaker who makes the recommendation. They further believe that he has no right whatever to make that recommendation.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy persists in that attitude, I will have to ask him to resume his seat. I have already cautioned him. I will not allow any charge against a public official under the protection of the privilege of this House.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

This is a very important matter, so far as these people are concerned, and it is part of my duty and one of the obligations on me to put as forcibly as I can their viewpoint before the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will make the charges against the Minister—the Deputy responsible to this House for the administration of his Department.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I make the charge that the Minister has not taken proper steps to ascertain whether these applications should be granted or rejected. That is quite in order. I believe that the Minister has erred very much in not doing so and that there was an obligation on him to see that every application was closely and carefully scrutinised. The deputation which came before the Minister, and the local people, supplied data indicating that there is a big decline in the number of interments in Ballyvourney cemetery in recent years and they claim that, if the Minister or his Department did not interfere, the position would rectify itself by reason of the fact that an extension has been made to the cemetery. An unfortunate feature is that no further extension can be made, having regard to the nature of the land in the area contiguous to the cemetery.

The people there claim that the whole position would have come right without any interference and what I am asking the Minister to do is to reconsider the whole question of the closing of this cemetery and the rejection of a substantial number of applications by elderly people, widows and widowers, in that district for right of interment. I ask him in the light of all the facts that have been put before him by the representatives of the two constituencies and by the local people themselves to review the whole position and at least grant all the applications which have been submitted by people of, say, more than 50 years of age. If the Minister sees fit to refuse these applications, I want to make it perfectly clear to him that I intend to test the matter in the House by way of a Private Member's Bill, as I am fully entitled to do and as I believe there is an obligation on me to do, if I am to interpret correctly the viewpoint of the people in that area whom I have the honour to represent.

I do not want to labour the matter any further because I should like the Minister to hear some of Deputy McAuliffe's comments. I am sure he will bear out every word I have said. I have sufficient faith in the Minister to feel that there will be no need to go into this question at a future date, that he will give heed to the many representations made to him by the people of this district and that he will review again all these applications for interment and grant them. If he does so, he will be acting in the best interests of the people and will earn the gratitude and thanks of the people of Ballyvourney district. That is the message they have given me for the Minister. I have put it before him and I hope he will consider it as favourably and as sympathetically as it is entitled to be considered.

Mr. McAuliffe

I join with Deputy Murphy in the views he has expressed in relation to this cemetery. He has covered the ground very fully and has presented the case very forcibly to the Minister. There is one point I should like to make quite clear, with regard to the deciding authority whenever an application for right of interment is made by a particular family. We are led to believe that the only way in which this is decided is by driving into the ground an iron bar or spoke. I do not think that is fair because any body who goes out with a bar of iron to decide whether a coffin is underground or not may easily meet the old board of a coffin or a stone and I feel that it is wrong for the Minister to rely on that information. We are led to believe from people in this part of the area that that is so and those of us who represent the people of this district undoubtedly have a right and a duty to bring the matter to the attention of the proper authorities. We are doing so and I am very glad that Deputy Murphy has raised this matter here to-night, because, knowing the Minister as we do, as a man with a thorough knowledge of rural Ireland, I am sure he will give the situation very careful consideration.

There is no need for me to refer to what Deputy Murphy has pointed out —the general position with regard to this cemetery. The people of every part of Cork County have a special regard for it and every year there is a pattern to that cemetery and people pay a special visit to it in a particular month. In view of the fact that the people have this special interest in the cemetery, it is the duty of the Minister to do everything in his power to ensure that the people will be safeguarded and that their rights will be safeguarded. We know at present that a considerable number of people who have been separated from their partners desire to be buried with them. That case was made to some of us by people in the locality and I join with Deputy Murphy in putting that point to the Minister and in urging him to give very careful consideration to applications made in cases where a wife or husband has died and the remaining party wishes to be interred in the same grave. I hope he will give the matter raised by Deputy Murphy very sympathetic consideration.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. O'Donnell)

One would imagine from the speeches made to-night by Deputies that my predecessor did not initiate the proceedings for the closing of this graveyard of St. Gobnait's. That is not true. The Deputies who have spoken are members of the Cork County Council, and in January, 1952, that council——

Mr. M.P. Murphy

On a point of order. The Minister has stated that both Deputies are members of the Cork County Council. We are members of the Cork Board of Health; we are not members of the other body.

Mr. O'Donnell

I wish to point out that Cork County Council——

Mr. M.P. Murphy

This is a misrepresentation of the facts. It is the Cork County manager who is concerned.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must be allowed to speak surely.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

With due respect, the Minister should not be entitled to misrepresent the facts.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is not misrepresenting. The Minister is making his statement.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

He is fairly watchful of us.

Mr. O'Donnell

In January, 1952, Cork County Council applied to the then Minister for Local Government for an Order closing the old part of this burial ground to further interments. This application was supported by a report from the County Medical Officer to the effect that the old portion was obviously filled to capacity, and that further interments would be prejudicial to public health, public decency, and the respect due to the remains of the dead. It appeared, incidentally, that the County Medical Officer had been reporting adversely on the condition of the burial ground for many years prior to the county council's request.

In conformity with the request mentioned, a public local inquiry was held into the question of closing the old burial ground in October, 1952. At this inquiry, evidence was given by county council officers which made it plain that the cemetery was grossly overcrowded, and that burials were taking place in graves which could not decently or properly accommodate further coffins. I should mention, perhaps, that every opportunity was given to the local people interested to appear at the inquiry and make their case either against the closure, or in favour of their own continuing burial rights, if the cemetery were closed. Comparatively few appearances were, however, made by applicants for burial rights, and no real evidence was offered to disprove the necessity for closure on public health and other grounds. Having considered the evidence, and the inspector's report, the then Minister made an Order prohibiting further burials in the old portion of the cemetery as from the 1st September, 1954. I did not make the Order. The then Minister made the Order prohibiting burials from the 1st of September, 1954.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister should make it clear. He was down for making the Order.

Mr. O'Donnell

I did not make the Order, and I have no power to cancel the Order. I should like to point out that this is not the only place of pilgrimage which has been closed. Remember that Clonmacnoise, one of the most revered spots in the country, was closed. I have nothing but respect for cemeteries, and I have also great respect for the dead. I want to see the dead properly and decently buried at a sufficient depth.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

And the dead always were in Ballyvourney.

Mr. O'Donnell

I might point out that the law governing burials requires a depth of four feet from the surface level to the top of the coffin. I have gone further in the case of St. Gobnait's. I have allowed three feet nine inches as sufficient space in which to bury and cover the coffins. I think I have gone a long way. I am sure that neither the Deputies nor the relatives of the dead would like to see these coffins laid on the surface of the ground, and covered over, as I have seen in some graveyards.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

You did not see it there. You were never there.

Mr. O'Donnell

I was most reasonable, I thought. I cannot cancel the Order made by my predecessor. I can do nothing about it, but I might add to the list of exceptions to be buried there. That is the sole function I have got. I have allowed 111 names. The county council, the local authority, and the clergy, realised the overcrowding, because they themselves acquired an addition to the graveyard. The graveyard was becoming so overcrowded that they procured an addition to it. I am making no effort to close that additional ground which was acquired by the diocesan clergy there.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Is the Minister aware that two doctors are among the applicants?

Mr. O'Donnell

None of us like to see the graves of our forefathers closed. We may talk in generalities, but when it comes to individual cases we do not like to see these graves closed up. I have had personal experience of having the graveyard in which my forbears are interred, closed. None of us likes it, but we have to like it from the broad point of view, and we have to see, in the interests of common decency and public health, that overcrowded graveyards should not continue to be used. I think we must answer in the affirmative. I am prepared to give both Deputies the undertaking that if they can make cases, if any individual can make a case to me for burial in that particular graveyard, and there is more than three feet nine inches from the surface of the soil to the top of the coffin, I am prepared to reconsider favourably such an application. I know that I have turned down applicants, old people, but when soundings were taken, we found that the coffins were less than two feet from the surface.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is incorrect.

Mr. O'Donnell

I would ask the Deputy to take the word of the gentleman who went there and took the soundings. The Deputy did not. I did not see St. Gobnait's.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I did. Soundings were taken when I was there.

Mr. O'Donnell

Did you take the soundings? I understand that exception was taken to this boring machine being used on the graves, and I find now from the Deputies that other than authorised persons have been taking soundings there. That discloses, therefore, a very serious matter. I accept the Deputy's word that he was present.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is to disprove the contention that this burial ground should be closed.

Mr. O'Donnell

I did not make the Order. Let that be quite clear.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister gave me the impression that he did make it.

Mr. O'Donnell

I did no such thing.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It is alleged that he did.

Mr. O'Donnell

If the Deputy refers to the 1949 Amendment Act he will see where he may requisition the county manager for information.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am glad the Minister did not make the Order.

Mr. O'Donnell

You can rest assured that I did not make the Order. The Order was made by the then Minister, and it was to come into force on the 1st September, 1954. I had nothing to do with the fixing of that date. I have not even power to cancel the Order. All I can do is to add to the schedule of permits for further interments in it. I am prepared to take, and have taken, a very liberal view in that respect. I have allowed 111 people to procure further interments there. I think that is a very liberal view in view of the fact that the deputation assured me that there would be very few applications for interments in that particular portion of the old graveyard. I am not finished yet. If the Deputies or applicants can put up a reasonable case, I am prepared to add to the schedule of permissive users of the graveyard. I want the Deputies to be clear that the initiative in this case was taken by the Cork County Council, that the Order was made by the then Minister, and I have had neither hand, act nor part in the making of it. The only thing I did was to add to the terms of the schedule.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 28th April, 1955.