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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 May 1955

Vol. 150 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Insurance (Intermittent Unemployment) (Extension) Order, 1955.

I move:—

That the Insurance (Intermittent Unemployment) (Extension) Order, 1955, made by the Minister for Social Welfare, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, and laid before Dáil Éireann on the 10th day of May, 1955, pursuant to sub-section (2) of Section 15 of the Insurance (Intermittent Unemployment) Act, 1942 (No. 7 of 1942), be confirmed.

The Insurance (Intermittent Unemployment) Act, 1942, established a scheme of insurance, usually known as the wet time scheme, under which insured persons and their employers pay weekly contributions into a fund known as the Supplementary Unemployment Fund and, in return, insured persons are entitled to compensation at prescribed rates for working time lost due to the weather. The scheme is administered by the Department of Social Welfare. There is no State contribution to the fund but the cost of administration is borne out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas. Up to the present, the scheme has been confined to manual workers employed in the building trade, but there is power to extend its provisions by Order to manual workers in other trades. No such Order may come into force until it has been laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and has been confirmed by resolution of each House.

The scheme had its origin in the discussions which led to the settlement of the building trade strike in 1937. One of the complaints of the workers at that time was that they suffered considerable loss of earnings due to the time lost owing to the weather, and the then Minister for Industry and Commerce undertook to prepare a scheme of insurance to compensate them for such losses. It has been a feature of the preparation and administration of the scheme that representatives of employers and insured persons have been consulted. At consultations prior to the formulation of the scheme a committee comprised of representatives of employers and workers sought to have the provisions of the Act applied to workers in the civil engineering trade but it was considered that, having regard to the experimental nature of the scheme, as a whole, it should be confined in the beginning to the building trade.

The building and civil engineering trades overlap to a considerable extent. Many civil engineering contracts include work which comes within the definition of "employment in the building trade" contained in the Act and many firms, the bulk of whose work is in the building trade, also carry out engineering contracts. Workers frequently change from one industry to another. Those who have had long spells of employment in the building industry during which they paid contributions into the fund feel aggrieved when they are debarred from receipt of benefit during spells of employment in the civil engineering industry.

Experience of the operation of the Act has shown that some work carried out by painting contractors, for example the painting of bridges and public lighting standards, does not come within the definition of employment in the building trade and there has been constant pressure to have the benefits of the Act extended to all work of a kind commonly carried out by painting contractors.

It is now proposed that the benefits of the Act should be extended to employment in the civil engineering and painting trades. After consultation with representatives of employers and workers, draft definitions of employments in these trades were prepared and discussed at length with State and semi-State bodies which would be affected by extension. Certain exclusions were suggested and they have been embodied in the Order where it is considered that the conditions of employment render it unnecessary that persons in these employments should be insured. They cover broadly all civil engineering work carried out directly by local authorities, Government Departments (exclusive of major marine works), the railway companies and the E.S.B. The primary consideration in framing the exclusions was that persons engaged in these employments receive either full or partial payment for time lost by reason of the weather. This, in effect, reduces the scope of the proposed extension, so far as employment in the civil engineering trade is concerned, to work actually undertaken by civil engineering and public works contractors. Painting work incidental to the excluded employments is also to be excluded.

It has been found extremely difficult to form an estimate of the number of persons who would be brought within the scope of the scheme by extension to employment in the civil engineering and painting trades. On the information available, however, it is estimated that the number will vary between 3,000 in the slack periods in these industries to 10,000 in the busy periods and the weekly average number employed has been estimated at 7,000. It is thought that the demands made by workers in these trades on the fund will be proportionately greater than those made by workers in the building trade. Employment on civil engineering works and on painting contracts is more susceptible to interruption due to the weather as the amount of work available under cover is considerably less than in the building trade. The income to be derived from the classes to which it is proposed to extend the Act is estimated at £18,000 per year and the expenditure at £24,000. In order to qualify for benefit an insured person must have at least 12 stamps to his credit, and it is thought that this will reduce expenditure in the first year to about £18,000. The estimated total income and expenditure of the fund after the first year are £100,000 and £99,000 respectively. The cost of administration of the scheme will not, it is thought, be materially increased by reason of extension.

Before making the Order, did the Minister consider whether it would be desirable to apply it to road workers?

That aspect was considered.

I think further consideration should be given to that because this class of workers probably loses more time on account of bad weather all during the winter than any other class. Some of the local authorities have discussed this matter before now and felt that further consideration should be given to it and that if possible men in the employment of local authorities over the winter months should be included under this. I should like to hear from the Minister on what grounds they were excluded?

As I stated at the beginning, before this Order was drafted there were long discussions between the two congresses and representatives of the employers. Both parties were aware of the conditions under which road workers worked, but having regard to the following fact they decided that they would not be included in this Order, that is, that every county council except three have arrangements whereby stoppage of work due to inclement weather is paid for. The Deputy will probably remember that there was a circular sent from the Department of Local Government, I think, in 1950, suggesting a draft scheme to them and that, as I said, was adopted by all county councils except three.

As a matter of fact, I think the scheme that is in operation by these county councils who have already adopted it is much more advantageous to the workers than probably this would be. One of the attractive features as far as the worker is concerned is that no contribution is paid, and I doubt very much whether the workers in my constituency and Deputy Allen's constituency would prefer to be included in this Order as against having applied to them the wet time scheme that the various county councils have.

The Minister is no doubt aware that large numbers of men are laid off by county councils in the slack period in the winter months and if they could be employed during the days that men can work, the local authorities would carry many more men during that period.

That is a horse of a different colour. They are not laid off merely because there is inclement weather in the slack period of the year.

It is due to inclement weather. There is no output.

They are not laid off merely because there is inclement weather. The season generally is probably not suitable for the type of work they would be engaged in on the roads.

I think the Minister is right there. After all, if a county council has, say, a staff of 400, they would be looked upon as permanent staff and would have continuous employment; then there would be other people who would be employed on a temporary basis. I would like to see certain sections of the workers coming under this. I refer particularly to forestry workers who have to break off work due to inclement weather. Will they be included? We have the forestry workers who belong to a Government Department. The county council workers, as far as I know, are not cut off constant employment; they are kept working; if they get to the job they are all right. I think Deputy Allen is wrong, that he is referring now to the temporary workers. There are 700 in all.

They are all workers.

There are permanent and temporary ones. Do you want only the temporary ones to come in under this?

The temporary ones have to live, too.

It would be better to have them all in.

I am not objecting.

It would be more sensible to have them all, the temporary and the permanent, coming under the wet time scheme.

This is quite irregular. I allowed the Minister to reply. This is a motion before the Dáil; it is not in Committee. However, I am not going to curb the discussion.

What has been said is germane to the motion up to the moment. It was only in an interjection that the Minister intervened.

I will allow Deputies to contribute to the debate if they wish and keep the Minister to reply at the end.

The point I want to raise is that raised by Deputy O'Leary. I also would like a clear undertaking from the Minister that the forestry workers would be provided for in this Bill. He said that nearly all the local bodies have adopted the 1950 scheme. It might be adopted to some extent, as Deputy O'Leary said, as regards the men in permanent employment, but I doubt very much if the men who are casual or temporary workers are covered by that 1950 Order at all.

There are periods of the year when local authorities have only ordinary maintenance work on roads. There are other times when there is work under grants from the Local Authorities (Works) Act and other grants from time to time, including ordinary road maintenance grants. These men are not provided for. They are human and they have families to rear, and they should get some advantages and some protection as do men who happen to be so fortunate as to be on a permanent staff.

I agree with Deputy O'Leary that the forestry workers should be provided for. They are employed often in places where they have no proper shelter and are exposed on the hillsides. On a wet day they are quartered or let off half time. Some provision should be made by the Minister to cover that class of worker.

I welcome the Order and would suggest to my colleagues to leave well enough alone. As regards the workers on the roads and even in forestry, I think they are very well done for and the less books and regimentation we have about them the better. We have provided for wet time for road workers and I think it is applicable all over and that they are better off—I agree with the Minister —as they are than they would be by paying a contribution for wet time stamps. That is my personal opinion.

The Minister, to conclude.

Deputies will agree with the former Parliamentary Secretary, who says this is an improvement. It would not be any harm for me to say that even with this improvement there is somewhat of a risk in overdrawing on this wet time fund, or supplementary employment fund as it is called. Deputies will probably remember that we had very bad weather during the past winter and it was impossible in certain places for normal building operations to be carried out in the usual fashion. Consequently there was a big drain on the fund. Again, the strife that we had a month or two ago, affecting very much the building operations especially here in Dublin, resulted in very reduced contributions being paid by the workers.

This is a gradual improvement and if I can find a case later on for the inclusion of such workers as have been mentioned here by some of the Deputies I certainly will have no hesitation in introducing the appropriate Order. Deputy O'Leary asked about forestry workers. As I explained, they are not included.

That is a mistake.

The workers' and employers' representatives are satisfied that they are adequately covered. I am informed by the Department of Lands that on a day on which work cannot be carried out in the forest, a half-day's wages is paid. I suggest that that would probably be better compensation or at least equal to what would be provided under this particular Order. The workers in the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna have their own schemes. In the case of Bord na Móna the workers contribute 3d. a week, I think, and they are compensated to the extent of 10½d. per hour. The problem in the county councils is well catered for by this scheme which has been adopted. As far as unemployment in the winter is concerned, the county councils might be able to help in that respect. I do not think it would be suggested that out of this fund we should pay something that would be like unemployment benefit. If there are long periods like that when casuals have to be left off, they will make application to the local exchange and if they are entitled, they can draw unemployment benefit or unemployment insurance.

If I see a case for the inclusion of certain workers—such as road workers, county council workers or forestry workers — I will have no hesitation in bringing in an Order. However, at the present time I do not feel that I could stretch the resources of the fund to include any more than are provided for under this particular Order.

Motion put and agreed to.
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