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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 1955

Vol. 151 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1955—Committee.

SECTION 1.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (1), lines 15 and 16, to delete "seven shillings and sixpence" and substitute "six shillings and sixpence."

The purpose of this amendment is to bring about a reduction in the standard rate of income-tax. If the amendment should be adopted by the Dáil, the standard rate of tax would be reduced from 7/6 to 6/6. I moved a similar amendment to the Finance Bill, 1954. I said then that the purpose of moving the amendment was to give Deputies supporting the Government an opportunity of redeeming their election pledges to reduce tax rates to the level at which they stood prior to the 1952 Budget or, alternatively, of explaining to the country, and particularly to those members of the public who had been induced by these pledges to support them in the election, the reason why they were not doing so. I must confess that I failed in both these purposes.

The discussion on the amendment neither produced any evidence of anxiety on the part of Coalition Deputies to bring about a reduction in the rate of tax in redemption of their pledges nor enthusiasm for the task of explaining why they were not doing so. In fact, no effort on my part succeeded in dragging any explanation of any kind from any member of the Government. It is true that a number of back benchers were put up during the course of the debate—Deputies Morrissey and O'Leary, Dunne and Dockrell—to suggest that if no reduction in the rates of taxation——

Did the Deputy mention my name?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

I did not speak on this.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy did speak on it. His recollection is bad. The Deputy said a few words last year. Is that what he is trying to deny now?

I thought the Deputy was referring to this year.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy was put up to suggest that even if no reduction in tax rates was made then, these reductions would be achieved in the future. But no hint of any such undertaking came from any responsible member of the Government. We got, therefore, neither any indication that the election pledges were likely to be honoured at any time nor any attempt at a reasonable explanation for the failure of the Government to do so. It is true that one Coalition Deputy; Deputy Dunne of the Labour Party, said that he had gone around his constituency and interviewed a number of those who had voted for the Coalition and had satisfied those people as to the Government's reasons for not implementing its election pledges, but he did not tell the Dáil the nature of the explanation which satisfied his constituents.

This amendment is being moved again this year for a somewhat different purpose. There is now, I think, little hope that the Government will either by accepting the amendment redeem one part of its election undertakings or offer any intelligent explanation for not doing so; but there is, it seems to me, a need to get the public mind clarified as to the reason why the present rate of income-tax and the present rates of taxation upon beer, spirits and tobacco are being maintained. Throughout the months prior to the general election the leaders of the various Coalition Parties conducted a campaign throughout the country directed towards convincing the people that the then rates of taxation were unnecessary. They described them as penal taxes devised by the Fianna Fáil Government for the vexation of the people, taxes which were not required, they said, to enable the Budget to be balanced; and they succeeded in instilling into the minds of a large section of the public the notion that these were Fianna Fáil taxes, having their origin in some mistaken conception of national economic needs and were unjustified by the position of the Exchequer.

The trouble is that the propagandists of the Coalition Government did not stop that campaign when they became the Government. They still persisted in the contention that these taxes were in force because the Fianna Fáil Government put them there and they did not attempt to answer the contention that they were continued in force because the Coalition Government wanted to keep them there.

When we were discussing the Finance Bill last year every Coalition Deputy who spoke on it described it as a Fianna Fáil Bill. Every one of them attempted to suggest that if they had had time to draft the Finance Bill themselves it would have been completely different in form. A year has passed since then and another Finance Bill is before the Dáil to-day. No Deputy opposite can suggest that Fianna Fáil had any part or any influence in the drafting of this Bill. This Finance Bill of 1955 is entirely a Coalition production. Last year, in a debate upon a similar amendment, Deputy Morrissey said at column 871 of Volume 146 of the Official Report:—

"If we are in the position to-day that we have to bring in a Fianna Fáil Finance Bill the Fianna Fáil Party and nobody else is responsible for it."

That was the defence they made last year for the Finance Bill and yet the Finance Bill this year is designed to maintain precisely the same rates of taxation, the same level of income-tax, the same taxes upon beer, spirits and tobacco as the Finance Bill of 1954— indeed, as the Finance Bill also of 1952.

Every Deputy knows the reception which the Finance Bill of 1952 received. They know that the present leader of the Government, the present Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, asserted roundly when that Bill was under discussion here, at column 1439 of Volume 131 of the Official Report, that he would repeal every one of these taxes if he were in the Government. When Deputy MacEntee attempted to forecast that in the event of a change of Government these taxes would be left unchanged, Deputy Costello, as he then was, indignantly denied that and said he would resign the next minute rather than proceed with any single provision of that Budget. He added that he would be no party to any provision of that Budget.

Every single provision of that Budget which was so attacked by the leaders of the Coalition remains unchanged in the 1955 Budget; every single tax against which the Deputies railed then is still in force and will continue in force unless these amendments standing in my name on the Order Paper are accepted by the House here. The purpose of this amendment is to try to force from the Government an admission that these taxes are necessary to keep the Budget balanced. That is not asking them to say very much. It is asking them to be honest with the Dáil and with the public. That may not be their habit, but in relation to this matter, it is surely possible to get some member of the Government to say that they are proposing to keep the rate of income-tax at 7/6 in the £ because it is necessary to do so to enable the Exchequer to get in enough money to meet its outgoings. We tried to get them to say that last year but they would not. They wriggled and squirmed when the question was put to them. Will they say it now? Will the Minister for Finance admit to the Dáil that everything they said in relation to the possibility of reducing these taxes was wrong and that they now accept—if they did not know it before—that maintenance of these taxes is necessary if Government expenditure is to be covered by revenue.

One would think that in their present more responsible status they would feel an obligation to be frank with the public in that regard. I ask Deputies, as I asked members of the public, to visualise the meeting of the Coalition Cabinet that took place in April last when the details of the Budget statement were being decided. Is it not likely—or is it likely?—that some member of that Government tentatively put the question: What is the possibility of carrying out our election pledges and revoking the taxes imposed by the 1952 Budget that we denounced? Will the Minister for Finance admit that that question was at least asked at that Cabinet meeting and will he tell the House the answer he gave there? He may not give the whole answer but he can at least give sufficient of it to enable the public to understand the position, and if they understand it they may accept it as his colleagues in the Government accepted it. Or, are we to assume that the details of the 1955 Budget, the 1955 Coalition Budget, were discussed by the Cabinet without any Minister asking that question?

This amendment also stands in a different light to that which I moved last year because, admittedly, last year we could not argue that a responsible Government could accept the amendments we moved. We knew that the maintenance of these tax rates was necessary to cover the Budget position. This year that is not so clear and it is possible to argue for the adoption by the House of some of these proposals. I will admit that not all of them could be adopted, but it should have been possible for the Government to consider incorporating in this Budget some of the proposals contained in these amendments. I do not know if the question is relevant to the debate, but I think it is: Could the Fianna Fáil Government have reduced the rate of income-tax as proposed in this amendment or reduced the rates of taxes on beer, spirits and tobacco as will be proposed in subsequent amendments? I cannot, and nobody can say, because the matter was never in fact considered, that they would have done so but I think it is possible to contend that they could have done so.

I said when speaking on the Budget that the most significant fact about it was this: that the Minister was able to prepare it on the basis of an estimate of revenue prepared, presumably, by the Revenue Commissioners, which indicated that he was entitled to expect from existing taxes £3,000,000 more than those taxes brought in last year. When the Minister for Finance went to that Cabinet meeting to tell them the details of his Budget Statement he was in the very happy position of being able to tell his colleagues that without changing any rate of taxes, they could nevertheless count on getting in £3,000,000 more than the previous Minister for Finance was able to estimate for when preparing the Budget of 1954.

But not merely had he that advantage; he was also able to tell them that because of the reduction in the guaranteed price for wheat the cost of the flour and bread subsidy would be £1,000,000 less than in the previous year. He was able to tell them also that he had got the proposal of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or at any rate the concurrence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in a proposal to tax biscuits and confectionery to an extent that would bring in practically £500,000, and over and above that, he was able to take into the Book of Estimates, as an Appropriation-in-Aid, a sum of over £750,000 representing Marshall Aid Grant Counterpart Funds. So that altogether the Minister for Finance in the Coalition Government had this year £5,000,000 to spend over and above the revenue that was available to Deputy MacEntee, his predecessor as Minister for Finance in 1954.

All the proposals of the Budget, the increase in the old age pensions rate, the various minor tax revisions which are dealt with in this Finance Bill between them will not cost £1,000,000 in this year. If, therefore, this Government had been able to keep down the level of Government expenditure to the 1954 level they would have had available for the purpose of giving reliefs in taxation a sum of approximately £4,000,000.

This reduction in the rate of income-tax which is proposed here would cost much less than that, and therefore, on the assumption that a Fianna Fáil Government would have kept the cost of Government in 1954-55 to the highest level it ever reached previously in the history of this country, the highest level it ever reached under Fianna Fáil administration, there would have been available this year £4,000,000 to be given in tax reliefs, £3,000,000 arising from the optimistic estimate of the Revenue Commissioners for tax yields, and £1,000,000 because of the reduced cost of the bread and flour subsidy. Keeping the cost of Government to the level at which Fianna Fáil had left it was not much to expect from the Government which promised to reduce the cost of government by several million pounds. I know that when Deputy McGilligan went down to Radio Éireann to announce the belief, the conviction, of the Fine Gael Party, that the cost of government could be reduced by several million pounds a year, no member of that Party knew what he was going to say. We have his word for that.

You have not.

Mr. Lemass

Well, did they know what you were going to say?

I believe they did. I will tell you one thing, they did not put me on twice, the way they put you on.

Mr. Lemass

I do not blame them for that.

No, but I know a lot of Fianna Fáil people blame your Party for putting you on twice.

Mr. Lemass

They will not put you on once the next time.

Wait and see.

Mr. Lemass

O.K. I take your word for it, that the Fine Gael leaders knew that when Deputy McGilligan would go down to Radio Éireann he would announce their intention to reduce the cost of government by several million pounds a year. At least, the supporters of Fine Gael must have expected them to be able to prevent it from going up and, if they had only done that, if they had only kept the cost of government at the 1954 level, £4,000,000 in relief of taxation would be possible this year. The amendment I am proposing would have been incorporated in the Bill amidst the cheers of the Fine Gael Deputies and perhaps some of the Labour Deputies.

Not sour smiles such as they get from you.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is beginning to bawl like a well-spanked baby.

The electors did not spank me. They spanked you.

Mr. Lemass

I am not denying at all that the electorate were misled by these promises.

They spanked you in any case.

Mr. Lemass

Some of them and, mind you, I find it very hard to criticise them for doing so.

I am sure you do.

Mr. Lemass

The constant reiteration of the intention of the Government Parties to pull down taxes and prices must have convinced some voters that these Fine Gael and Labour Party leaders knew what they were talking about. I read in this afternoon's paper the announcement of a prominent trade union leader which Deputies opposite should study in that regard.

We are not dealing with prices now. We are dealing with taxes. Your pledges to reduce taxes were at least as definite as your pledges to reduce prices and they came from all the responsible members of the present Coalition Government. They came from the present Taoiseach more than anyone else. It is true that the Minister for Finance, since the election, has said that there was no promise to reduce taxes at all.

That is what you were saying before the election— that you could not get them to make any promises.

Mr. Lemass

Not quite I think the Deputy is getting his propaganda lines crossed.

I am not. I am just remembering my history.

Mr. Lemass

There was no ambiguity whatever about the pledges that were given to reduce taxation.

You said there was.

Mr. de Valera

What has that to do with it?

Did not Deputy Lemass's leader say that he could not get him to make a promise?

Mr. Lemass

I have not even spanked the Deputy.

Mr. de Valera

Let Deputies opposite put up with what they are getting for a bit. They deserve it.

Will the Leader of the Opposition keep quiet? It would be better for him.

Mr. de Valera

These insinuations do not affect me. Come out with anything you want to say.

We have come out several times.

Mr. Lemass

Let us get this straight, because it should be possible to get it straight—did the Deputies opposite promise to reduce taxation or did they not?

You said they did not.

If Deputy Lemass says they did not, they probably did.

Mr. Lemass

What do you say?

I will tell you when I get time.

Mr. Lemass

Can we not see, as I said on the Budget debate, still on the dead walls of the country mouldy yellow posters stuck up 12 months ago: "Vote Fine Gael for lower taxes and lower prices"?

I do not think so.

Mr. Lemass

Let me give a few more quotations. The Chairman of the Fine Gael Party is the present Minister for Education. Is that admitted? The Chairman of the Fine Gael Party, in his election address, said this to the country:

"The first task of the new Administration will be to lighten the burden of taxation which is now crushing the people."

What is the quotation from? Will the Deputy give the reference?

Are you denying it?

Wait until we get the reference.

Are you running away from it?

Mr. Lemass

It was the election address of Deputy Mulcahy.

Mr. Lemass

In the last election.

What is the book the Deputy is quoting from?

Mr. Lemass

The Dáil Debates.

Was his election address in the Dáil Debates?

Mr. Lemass

No. My quotation from it was. Deputy Donnellan has approved of the sentiment—he could not very well do anything else because Deputy Donnellan—this time I am quoting from Dáil Debates, Volume 131——

What were you quoting from the last time?

Mr. Lemass

From Deputy Mulcahy's election address. Is that clear to you? It is clear to people of ordinary intelligence. At Volume 131, column 639, Deputy Donnellan——

No tricks, now.

Who is speaking?

Mr. Lemass

I am speaking but I am quoting Deputy Donnellan. This is what Deputy Donnellan said——

What you said he said.

Mr. Lemass

"With a change of Government and with the help of men like Deputy McGilligan again, taxation to the extent of that £10,000,000 could be reduced."

Will we start off by cutting it by £3,000,000 by passing this amendment? The Deputy is going to vote against it, is he not?

What do you say?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will have to do one thing or the other. If he does vote against it, all I want him to do is to stand up here and say why. Is that asking too much of him? Is it asking too much of any Deputy who went around the country during the election making similar promises to his constituents?

What did you say?

Mr. Lemass

I said you were talking nonsense.

You said butter could not be reduced.

Mr. Lemass

I said that there was a basis of dishonesty for the whole campaign that was being conducted then and, may I say, the purpose of these amendments is to prove I was right and I am going to prove that I was right. Is it not true that there is not a single Deputy in the Fine Gael Party or the Labour Party who will vote to-day to reduce any tax? Is that not so?

What about the butter tax?

You put on the tax.

Mr. Lemass

Again I would remind the House that the money was there to be used for a reduction of taxation, if the Government wanted to use it in that way, if the Government were able to do what they said they would do— reduce the cost of administration, reduce the level of expenditure. If they had even kept the level of expenditure where they found it, they would have £4,000,000 this year to reduce the tax on beer and spirits and tobacco and income-tax.

Who increased them?

Mr. Lemass

They had undertaken, as you know——

You want undone overnight what you did in three years.

Mr. Lemass

I do not but I want you to make a start now. Deputy O'Leary's interjection there, which was, may I say, far more intelligently put than Deputy Morrissey's similar statement, brings the whole issue of this discussion to a point—are you going to do it at all? Are you still holding out before the country this promise that taxation will be reduced sometime? Can we get, even now, an undertaking that it will be done even next year? You said last year that it could not be done then, that there was no time, but that it would be done in 1955. Here is 1955.

Will you give an undertaking that it will be done in 1956?

Cannot you wait and see?

Mr. Lemass

No. Why should we wait and see? These men who are interrupting now are the men who said it could be done immediately. Remember what the present Taoiseach said—"I would resign the next minute rather than proceed with any single one of these taxes."

So I would.

Mr. Lemass

Why do you not?

Because it is not the same position now. I am Taoiseach now.

Mr. Lemass

What is the difference, except that you have let the cost of Government go up?

You let it go up.

Mr. Lemass

You let it go up.

You put it up.

He wants to sacrifice himself.

The Taoiseach is doing something that Deputy Hilliard is not doing. He is giving up money by being in this House. That does not apply to Deputy Hilliard.

Mr. Lemass

We are talking about public funds here. Let us try to keep the debate upon that level.

What is the sacrifice?

Mr. Lemass

Does the Taoiseach contend that nobody in the country was influenced by his assertion that he would be able to repeal these taxes immediately he became Taoiseach?

I never said anything of the sort.

Mr. Lemass

I am quoting from the Official Debates of Dáil Éireann.

You are misquoting from them.

You are quoting what you put into the Official Debates.

Mr. Lemass

There is another baby beginning to squeal and he has not been spanked yet.

If Deputies are not prepared to listen to Deputy Lemass, I will have to order them from the House.

On a point of order. If we are having regard to order, may I remind you that, notwithstanding this half-hour of Second Reading speech, we are supposed to be discussing amendment No. I, which deals with a specific matter, one specific section in the Bill?

Mr. Lemass

Amendment No. 1 deals with income-tax.

I am not going to take that ruling from Deputy Lemass, but from the Chair.

In the opinion of the Chair the Deputy is going wide of the amendment which deals with the reduction of the standard rate of income-tax.

Mr. Lemass

Those who come seeking justice must come with clean hands. If the Deputies opposite are as orderly as I am this debate will proceed in a very decorous manner.

The Deputy has more grace than I credited him with.

Mr. Lemass

These are the Deputies who are appealing to the Chair to keep order. This amendment deals with income-tax—this crushing burden of taxation that the Leader of the Fine Gael Party assured the electorate in his election address would be revoked and lifted by a Government in which Fine Gael was a Party. When is it going to be lifted?

Why did you put it on? Would you tell us that?

Mr. Lemass

There is no secret about why the Fianna Fáil Government put it on. They put it on because the money it brought in was required to meet the outgoings of the Government.

No. That is not what was said. What was said in 1952?

We cannot have the debate carried on in this fashion.

It was said that the people were too well off.

They were eating too much.

Mr. Lemass

I want the House to understand that there is an essential difference between the proposal I make to the House regarding income-tax and the proposals I will make later regarding the taxes on beer, spirits and tobacco. The taxes on beer, spirits and tobacco will remain as they are unless the House votes to change them but the income-tax at the rate of 7/6 in the £ will not unless Section 1 of this Bill is passed to-day. There is that difference. The House is clear about that. In the case of income-tax the rate has to be voted every year and the question is whether you are going to vote now to keep income-tax at 7/6 or 6/6 as I propose. For the Deputies who said that a reduction in taxation was possible and who promised to bring about a reduction of taxation and who suggested that the reduction would be considerable there cannot be much choice. They will have to vote for the amendment or else they have got to make to the House and to the country a frank and honest statement why they will not. I think it is the second alternative I prefer.

I want them to come into the House and admit that the rate of income-tax of 7/6 is not now and will not be in this year a Fianna Fáil tax; that it is a Coalition tax enforced unanimously by the Coalition Government, a tax enforced because the Coalition Deputies will this afternoon vote to keep it in force. That is what I want the House to do on this amendment. I want to get the position clarified and to make it clear beyond doubt that the rate of income-tax is as it is because the Coalition Government wants it at that level.

I think there is an obligation on the Leader of the Government to give some explanation as to why it has to be at that level. Let us get the figures. How much does a shilling in the pound represent in revenue? Am I correct in saying that it represents £3,000,000? If we reduce the rate of income-tax the revenue will be cut by £3,000,000, just about the amount of the estimated expansion of revenue this year if the Revenue Commissioners are accurate. No doubt, the Government could not forego £3,000,000 this year. It is true that Deputy McGilligan, on behalf of Fine Gael, promised to reduce expenditure in one year by several million pounds but nobody now takes him seriously. Nobody thinks that the Government could cut expenditure by £3,000,000 this year. They were not able to prevent it going up by £3,000,000 last year. Will we get an undertaking from the Government that there will be no further increase in expenditure this year and that next year the same bill will be presented to us so that we can hope that the rates of taxation will remain unchanged without any increase having to be proposed?

Deputies are apparently easy in their conscience on this matter. I would not like to be in their position. I do not feel it is possible for them to do what Deputy Dunne alleged. He went round his constituency and was satisfied that all these promises were not going to be kept and was quite happy about it. I do not believe the people were.

The old age pensioners come first.

Mr. Lemass

According to the ruling of the Chair, I have got to stick to income-tax. I will have a few words to say about beer. I know that Deputy O'Leary disagrees with Deputy Norton, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in regard to whiskey. Deputy O'Leary said he preferred to see the price going up whereas Deputy Norton promised to bring it down. We can also speak on the subject of tobacco. These are prices that you undertook to reduce. There was from a leader of the Labour Party an undertaking in specific terms that they would not even enter into a Coalition Government unless they got in advance an assurance that these promises were going to be implemented. They did not get the assurance. They are still in the Government and are going to stay there tied to Fine Gael as long as they are needed.

The Deputy was tied to four Independents for a long time.

Mr. Lemass

The purpose of moving this amendment this year is somewhat different from last year. Last year the main aim was to expose the hypocrisy of Coalition leaders and the falsity of their election pledges. This year the purpose is to get this question of the need for these taxes out of the realm of political controversy and to make it impossible for Cumann na nGaedheal leaders to describe them as Fianna Fáil taxes——

Mr. Lemass

——and to make it abundantly clear that they are enforced because the members of the Coalition Government, Labour and Fine Gael alike, have decided to keep them in force at their present rates.

Deputy Lemass is very anxious to get the public mind clear. That is the Deputy's trouble. The public mind is so clear that he is sitting where he is to-day. I always knew that the Fianna Fáil Party could not take defeat. There is this to be said for them. Any one of them can take it better than Deputy Lemass.

Mr. Lemass

On a point of order. The Deputy has not spoken about the amendment yet.

The Deputy cannot take it but he is going to sit there and take it. I am at least entitled to as much liberty from the Chair—I am perfectly sure I will get it—as Deputy Lemass got. I hope to make better use of it. The Deputy spoke about honesty and implied there was no honesty on this side of the House. If there is any member of the Fianna Fáil Party who is going to lecture this side of the House or anybody in public life on honesty, I think Deputy Lemass might leave it to anybody but himself.

That has nothing to do with the amendment, which deals with the reduction in income-tax.

Might I remind the House that Deputy Lemass spoke for 40 minutes on an amendment to which he made only a passing reference until called to order by the Chair? I am asking for the same liberty as Deputy Lemass got for the past 40 minutes— no more.

No Deputy will be allowed to indulge in personalities, as the Deputy is doing.

Deputy Lemass indulged in personalities. He mentioned my name at least half a dozen times in a cheap, sneering way.

He mumbled something about me to the stenographer.

He did not even know you were there.

I am replying, Sir, to Deputy Lemass. The Deputy, like his colleagues, is trying to get it across, so to speak, that the reason why he is sitting on that side of the House is because of Coalition pledges or promises, as he called them. Not at all. They are sitting there, not because of any pledges or promises but because of their own performances. No pledges or promises that we could make would have induced the people to kick them out if it were not for their own performances and their own breaches of promises. The Deputy who said, with his colleague, that there was no necessity, and there was certainly no intention, of increasing the duty on drink or putting it back for the second time is just as fond of talking about honesty as he is about truth.

Mr. Lemass

I made no such statement.

Sit down and take it. The Deputy's one aim is to drive dishonesty, humbug and hypocrisy out of public life.

He will have to go himself.

May I suggest that there is nobody in Irish public life who could make a greater contribution to that aim than the Deputy himself? All he has to do is to resign. The Deputy can find nothing bad enough to throw at people on this side of the House, who are dishonest, who are humbugs and hypocrites, who are three-card tricksters. The Deputy has much more experience than anybody on this side of the House——

That was an open confession, anyhow.

The exposure of yourself you have just made.

Deputies are now talking as if it were the members on this side of the House who increased the rates of income-tax. But there is one thing Fianna Fáil have made clear through Deputy MacEntee, Deputy Dr. Ryan and, I think, Deputy Childers, that if they were in the Government now and if they had any money to spare—and I doubt very much that they would have—it would not be applied to increases in old age pensions or widows' pensions but it would be applied to a reduction of income-tax. That was made perfectly clear. That cannot be denied. The statements are there on record.

Mr. Lemass

The old age pension goes up every time there is a change of Government.

The only thing is that it goes up more when we are in.

It was not this Government, this Party, or any of the Parties associated with this Government that imposed the duties on beer, spirits and tobacco.

Take them off. That is all we want.

They were put on by Fianna Fáil in 1947 and they were reimposed when they came back. That was not the only thing they did when they came back.

Why are you keeping them there in 1955?

Every one of your constituents that takes a pint is paying 3d. extra because he voted for you and then Deputy Lemass talks about the burden of taxation. The Deputy has not been able to produce one document in this House in which any member supporting the Government, much less the members of the Government on this side of the House, pledged themselves to reduce income-tax by 1/- or to reduce the tax on beer, spirits or tobacco and I challenge the Deputy to produce it in this House. I am not challenging the Deputy—the gentleman of truth and honour, the gentleman who wants nothing but honesty in public life—to hold up a copy of the debates in front of him and quote what suits himself and not what is in the copy of the debates. That is what the Deputy was trying to do within the last half hour.

Mr. Lemass

I gave the volume and column every time.

This play-acting will not get the Deputy anywhere.

Mr. Lemass

That is the flimsiest excuse yet.

All this play-acting will not get the Deputy anywhere except where he is. Do not have the people outside laughing at you when you are accusing the people on this side of the House of being hypocrites and of being dishonest. The Deputy talked about coming in with clean hands. May I say this, that if Deputy MacEntee, as Minister for Finance, was forced to increase income-tax, to increase the price of bread by 50 per cent., to do all the things he said he had to do in the 1952 Budget, there is no single member of that Party and no ex-member of that Government opposite who contributed more to that situation with his wildcat schemes than the same Deputy Lemass contributed, and Deputy MacEntee knows that better than any man in this House?

This is not relevant to amendment No. 1.

I am saying that 7/6 would not be on the income-tax if it were not for the gentleman that treated us to the play-acting for the last 40 minutes. The Deputies opposite realise quite well that it was not any promises of ours but their performances that made the people kick them out and will keep them out. Deputy Lemass is sore and he cannot conceal it. He is so sore and bitter that he, a Deputy with so many years' experience in the House, came in here this evening and indulged in the sort of cheap little sneers that would not be worthy of Deputy Corry.

Mr. Lemass

Or of Deputy Morrissey.

He thinks he will influence the local elections by this play-acting he is carrying on here this evening.

That is what he is after.

Or is it headlines in the Irish Press to-morrow morning? But the people of this country know and are not being fooled. They have a great deal more intelligence than the Opposition Deputies give them credit for. Apart from all these promises which the Fianna Fáil Party made, their selection of candidates in the last general election was very clever; their rejection of candidates was even more clever. Would Deputy Lemass like me to name four or five Deputies of the Coalition that kept him in office?

Mr. de Valera

And kept you lonesome.

The Leader of the Opposition should not be losing his temper so early in the evening. I remember saying on many occasions during the long 16 years that Fianna Fáil were in office that I was perfectly satisfied that Fianna Fáil would never be able to suffer five years in opposition, much less 15.

Mr. de Valera

This has all been said before.

We have been told that taxation in the country is still high, that 7/6 in the £ income-tax is too high. Deputy Lemass was talking about relieving taxation in relation to industry, a Deputy who has been 19 years in office out of the last 23. Nineteen years.

They ruined the country.

What is the Deputy talking about?

About Deputy Lemass complaining about high taxation after spending 19 years in the House himself.

Mr. de Valera

And doing a lot.

I am not talking about what he did but of what he did not do and the chief knows that quite well.

Tell us anything your Government has done?

Mind you they have done a lot and the people are quite happy. There is an atmosphere of confidence in the country at last. There is confidence in the country and a feeling of security and of satisfaction which is reflected in the £5,000,000 extra which Deputy Lemass tells us this Government got but which I say they never got.

We never started any blue shirts.

Yours were brown.

Do not mind them; you can always know when you are hitting them. What Deputy Lemass does not realise is that one cannot go on with this play-acting. Deputy Lemass cannot get up here and put himself forward as a great champion. The Deputy's general rule is to accuse everybody on this side of the House of being dishonest and of being unscrupulous. They can give out themselves but they are not able to take it.

They have to take it.

They have and the people of this country are quite satisfied. They know all this play-acting of Deputy Lemass and they are not being fooled one bit.

Mr. Lemass

What is the Deputy worried about then?

I am not worried. I have nothing to be worried about but Deputy Lemass unfortunately has from a political viewpoint. I have nothing to worry about. This Government is here for its full term and it will come back again at the end of its term. Both the Leader of the Opposition and Deputy Lemass as well as Deputy MacEntee are quite satisfied Fianna Fáil will never govern this country again.

It is your last term.

Are Fine Gael governing the country?

Deputy Flanagan never will anyway.

The Parliamentary Secretary is swallowed up by them.

I will swallow you too, brother.

There must be order in the House.

If taxation is to be reduced even along the lines to which Deputy Lemass is now apparently converted then the only hope for the people of this country is in the present Government. There was one thing in which Fianna Fáil were entirely consistent: for the whole 19 years they never reduced taxation. Never once in the 19 years did they do that. Every year from the beginning there was a climbing of taxation year by year. They never proposed a reduction in taxation except when in opposition. That is true.

Mr. de Valera

It is not true.

Is it true?

It is not.

How often is it not true?

Why are you not reducing taxation?

I did reduce it every year I was in office.

Deputy Lemass should not be trying to displace Deputy Davern.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Morrissey would not put this across the people of Tipperary. He did not put anything across Tipperary.

If I live until to-morrow I will have represented them for 33 years. That is not so bad.

Mr. Lemass

But you are getting farther and farther away from the quota.

And the House is getting farther and farther away from the debate.

The Deputy does not make any reference to the vote he got last time from his strict honesty. He was so conscientious about it that he did not notice he got only 17,000 instead of the 34,000 he used to get.

Deputy Morrissey never got 34,000 in his life.

I got more than you did.

I doubt it. At least I was not afraid to run on my own.

I want to say that I should like to see a reduction in income-tax. I also want a reduction in the prices of beer, spirits and tobacco.

All you have to do is walk in with us.

But the only way of getting them is by keeping this Government in power. The only way of getting taxation even higher than its present level is——

By voting for Fianna Fáil.

That is the only sensible interruption there has been since I started. I do not want to speak as long as Deputy Lemass did but as far as I am concerned I certainly shall not lecture this House on honesty and clean hands.

It is too late in the day now.

Deputy Lemass does not seem to have realised what has put him and his Party across to the far side of the House. I would give a lot to have the Deputy's voice this evening. As it is, I am afraid I will hardly be able to reach him.

The whole performance given by the Deputy this evening was one of the most shameful and irresponsible performances that any person in the position of Deputy Lemass has ever given in this House. Deputy Lemass knows perfectly well that the quotations about which he was talking were quotations showing what the position was in 1952 and, in case Deputy Lemass might be in any doubt about the future and the assertions I personally made a year ago, if he did not receive a copy from Deputy Harris of what I said then, I am going to send a copy of that leaflet across the House to the Deputy now.

I repeat everything that is there. What I did in that leaflet was to show the level at which prices stood in 1951 when the inter-Party Government was in office and the manner in which those prices increased after three years of Fianna Fáil; and I asked the people to answer that increase with their vote, and I am very glad to say that they did. What Deputy Lemass does not realise, even yet, is that what put him and his Party across on that side of the House was not anything that was said on this side of the House but simply their own record of promises—the promises of himself in Cork and of Deputy MacEntee here in Dublin, that they were not going to reimpose certain taxes and then, on coming into office, immediately reimposing them.

What about the Minister's false promises to reduce taxation?

The people knew last year exactly where they stood in relation to Fianna Fáil. They knew the record of Fianna Fáil in those three years. It was not a record with which the people were satisfied and it was because of that that the gentlemen now opposite transferred from this side of the House; and it is that same record in those three years that will keep them on that side of the House for a great many years to come.

Deputy Lemass has put down here in an entirely irresponsible way, particularly irresponsible coming from the person who hopes to lead that Party when Deputy de Valera decides to relinquish leadership, amendments which have a total value of approximately £12,500,000. That is roughly the effect of the amendments Deputy Lemass has tabled. Deputy Lemass says, on the one hand, that he does not want the amendments passed; he says, on the other hand, that he is asking the House to vote in favour of them. His colleague, Deputy MacEntee, when he was speaking on the Budget, suggested that it was a balanced Budget. Deputy Lemass is now, therefore, trying to unbalance it to the extent of £12,500,000. Perhaps the Deputy would wish that we would cut out certain items on the expenditure side. I could give him a selection.

Mr. Lemass

So could the Attorney-General, Deputy McGilligan, obviously.

Over what period or in what time?

Take Vote 62, for example: if we wiped out the whole of that we would have more or less the figure to which Deputy Lemass's amendments amount. It seems to me quite incomprehensible that we should have Deputy Lemass putting down these amendments after a Budget, from which this Finance Bill flows, which Deputy Lemass and every member of the Fianna Fáil Party accepted and against which they did not challenge a single division. That seems to me to underline the irresponsibility of the Deputy in tabling these amendments.

Like Deputy Morrissey, I do not understand what the Deputy's reason is. He can, without usurping the functions of the Dáil for such irresponsibility, adopt other methods by which he can get headlines in the Irish Press, if he so desires. I do not think it can be just for that purpose that he has tabled these amendments.

I do not know whether it was the intention of Deputy Lemass to suggest in so far as the first amendment is concerned that it was better to reduce income-tax than to subsidise butter, for example, or to increase old age and widows' pensions. I do not know whether that is his intention. For sheer irresponsibility on the part of a person who claims to be responsible, it would be very hard indeed to find anything comparable to the amendments tabled by the Deputy to-day.

Quite frankly, I believe that what brought about these amendments was that Deputy Lemass lost his temper the other day, said he would introduce amendments and could not very well go back on his words. There must be some explanation for the extraordinary performance we have been given this evening.

I do not propose to make any apology for this section of the Bill or for the fact that I am asking the House to oppose this amendment, as I will ask the House to oppose all the other amendments put down by Deputy Lemass. I believe that what is wrong with the Deputy is that he knows the country is satisfied that the Budget on which this Finance Bill is founded is a Budget well suited to the needs of the people at the present time. The country accepts that this is a good beginning for this Government after 12 months in office and the country is quite happy and satisfied to give this Government, after this initial start in this Budget, another term of years to work out its plans and its policy and put them into operation.

The Deputy need not expect me or any single one of my colleagues to come in here and apologise for anything that is in this Bill because we think it is a good Bill. It is one with which the country is quite satisfied. It is one which meets the times in which we live. I am flattered because of the manner in which Deputy Lemass suggests by these amendments that in 12 short months we are able to overcome all the damage that Fianna Fáil succeeded in doing in their last three years in office.

The Minister has suggested that the reason why Deputy Lemass put down the amendment to reduce income-tax by 1/- was to unbalance the Budget. That is not so. Deputy Lemass had a much more difficult task and a much more difficult purpose in view when he put down these amendments. He put them down to extract from the Taoiseach, first of all, and from the Minister for Finance and the other members of the Government, and those who are supporting them in the House, the reasons why income-tax should stand at 7/6 in the £. Why is it that? It has not been reduced. The Minister for Finance has been good enough to pass across the floor here a leaflet which is familiar not merely to all the members of this House but to every voter in the country. In it he contrasts the prices of certain commodities in 1954 with what they were in 1951.

Of course, we all know what was the main factor in increasing the price, say, of bread, and the price of butter and the price of tea in 1954 as compared with 1951—it was the Budget of 1952 and the Minister knows that just as well as I do. Why had the Budget of 1952 to reduce subsidies in order that that Budget might be balanced? Because the Fianna Fáil Government in 1951 had inherited from its predecessors, the Coalition, after the general election of that year a Budget which ultimately showed itself to be unbalanced to the extent of £6,700,000. That is not the first time——

Do you remember when you said——

That is not the first time a Coalition Budget was found to be unbalanced.

It was a pity you did not say that then.

There was a Budget in 1949 which was unbalanced. There never was a Budget introduced by the Coalition——

What about C.I.E.?

Will Deputies cease interrupting?

——at any time which fully covered the current expenditure of the Government of the day.

That is not what you said then.

The Deputy does not know what he is saying to-night. He reminds me of his broadcast. He broadcast twice and his colleagues did not know what he was going to say. The Deputy's difficulty is that he never knows what he is going to say until he begins to transmit. However, it is not Deputy McGilligan who is in issue here. It is a much more important question. Why is it that the Coalition Government has not brought down prices? That might not be strictly relevant to this debate, but why is it that they have not brought down income-tax? After all the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government just a little while ago told everybody that the greatest boon which the Minister for Finance could confer in the common interest would be a reduction of 6d. in the £ in income-tax.

All we are asking him to do is to explain why it is that the Government cannot fulfil the somewhat optimistic expectations of the Taoiseach. I am not saying it was a pledge or promise: we will say it was not; and, of course, where lawyers are concerned, words lose all meaning and all shape and function; they just appear to be whatever they happen to think they mean at the time. But why is it that in the year 1955 the Government has not been able to fulfil the optimistic expectations of the Taoiseach expressed in 1952 that if he were seated where he is sitting to-day he would be able to reduce taxation by £10,000,000 or, at least, he would be able to refrain from collecting taxation to the extent of £10,000,000? I am getting a bit mixed on this but that does not matter: the real point is—why is it, again, that in this year's Budget and in this year's Finance Bill the Government has not been able to reduce taxation?

We know why it is that they have not been able to reduce it, because we had to balance the Budget of 1951 which the present Attorney-General introduced as Minister for Finance. Not only that, but we had to implement pledges which were given by the leaders of the Labour Party and members of the Labour Party that they would bring in a Social Welfare scheme. We also had to implement the pledges which were given that there would be a new Health Act. We have done all these things. State expenditure has been increased correspondingly and I am quite prepared to concede that the Government is not able—if you like—to reduce taxation to the extent to which they promised, to the extent to which they led the people to believe they would reduce it if they were returned to office after the last general election. I am quite prepared to concede they cannot do everything they told the people they would do but why is it they cannot do this little bit? Why is it they cannot confer that greatest boon in the common interest which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government said the Minister for Finance would willingly confer if only he had the money?

It is not, therefore, to unbalance the Budget that this amendment has been put down but it is to extract an admission from the Government that they cannot reduce taxation because to reduce taxation in present circumstances would be to unbalance the Budget, and if all these amendments were to be accepted we would be back in the year 1951 in precisely that position in which the Coalition Government left the country when it left office in 1951. The reason why the Government is not in a position—let us be quite frank about it—to reduce taxation, to reduce income-tax by 1/- and so on, is that if they were to do so they would, as the Minister for Finance himself has suggested, unbalance the Budget and therefore we would be back in 1951.

We do not, of course, want to go back to the year 1951. We had the hard and difficult task, which brought us a great deal of public odium, of trying to save the country, getting the country out of the mess in which the Coalition had left it in 1951. We have done that; we do not want the people to go back to 1951, but we have carried the burden, the odium and the opprobrium which was connected with the 1952 Budget. We have carried it now for three years and we are going to compel the members of the Coalition and those who support the Government to accept responsibility for balancing the Budget. That is why we put down these amendments. We are going to put their methods on proof. If the present Government think that taxation can be reduced, if they think there is a single item of expenditure on the other side of the Government account that can be cut out, if they think that in one way or another we can get economies to the extent of £3,000,000, then they can vote for this amendment and reduce taxation and expenditure. But if the Government supporters do not believe that Government expenditure can be reduced to that extent, then I would say: by all means, vote against this amendment because you do very much less harm to the country by assuming the responsibility that is properly yours than by bringing in an unbalanced Budget.

We fought hard and we suffered a great deal—so far as our political careers were concerned, that does not matter—but we suffered a great deal otherwise——

You spent £250,000 on a racehorse.

Mr. Lemass

He is still there too.

And now Deputy O'Leary is buying oats to feed Tulyar.

And the bottle of stout he gets as well.

Deputy O'Leary might cease interrupting, even at this stage.

The choice, therefore, is a very simple one. We are not asking the Government to do anything to unbalance the Budget, but we are asking the Government to prove by their votes in the Division Lobbies that they cannot reduce taxation because there is not any single item in the expenditure of the Government which they can cut out in the public interest.

Not even the C.I.E.

One can talk to intelligent people but one cannot deal with that sort of an interruption.

Deputy Coogan should cease interrupting.

There is no point in prolonging this debate unduly. I only hope that, before the amendment is put, the Taoiseach will get up and tell us precisely why it is that he has not been able, having had 12 months to consider the matter, to introduce a single economy which would enable him to reduce taxation and, in this particular instance, to reduce the standard rate of income-tax by 1/- in the £.

He is looking for a fairy godmother such as you got in C.I.E.

Deputy Lemass announced the other day—I was not here but I read it in the newspapers— that he was out to drive humbug out of public life. Is not that so? He has had far more success than he says. There were four priceless humbugs in this House the last time who are now out of it——

That has nothing to do with the amendment.

——people who supported the humbug that Deputy Lemass was responsible for as second leader of the Party. Three people opposite me lost heavily in the last election through humbug—their own humbug. Deputy Lemass lost a colleague in his constituency; Deputy Aiken got rid of one colleague; Deputy MacEntee lost an associate—I do not know whether I can call him a colleague—but certainly our people had to go and sympathise with Deputy MacEntee because he seemed to be on the way out and I must say that we are more pleased to see him here than the man he substituted. These are three great testimonials to Deputy Lemass's desire to get rid of humbug.

Why was Fianna Fáil beaten in the last election? Was it because we said we would bring down prices or taxes, as is alleged against us? It was not.

Mr. Lemass

That is what you said yourself was the reason.

I will tell you why. It was because, No. 1, Deputy Lemass and Deputy MacEntee were responsible for making specific pledges to the electorate after 1951, one, that they would not cut subsidies and the other that they would not restore the taxes on beer, spirits, entertainments and tobacco. Is not that so? Were not those promises made? And they came in and soon afterwards they cut the subsidies and reimposed the taxation. That was dishonesty to the public. Was it or was it not? It is all very well to laugh at this but am I not right in saying that these pledges were made that the taxes would not be reimposed and that there was no question of cutting subsidies? If that is not right, I can get the quotations but I think those things are accepted, are not they, and is it not a fact that the subsidies were slashed and that taxes were reimposed? It was deceit on the public.

Mr. de Valera

It was because we needed £15,000,000 to balance our Budget, what you are trying to do now.

Let me come to that. Do not get too excited all of a sudden. There is a rod in pickle and I did not pickle it. Deputy MacEntee left it in pickle for the chief. Why did Deputy MacEntee say, in 1952, that the subsidies had to be reduced? It is not the reason given now.

Mr. de Valera

It is.

It was not. Do not interrupt me, please, because I can get the quotation again here. What was the pivotal phrase with regard to subsidies? Am not I right in saying this—Deputy MacEntee said, as Minister for Finance, that the Government had given careful consideration to the question of subsidies over six months and, as salaries and wages had advanced by more than the increase in the cost of living since 1938, there was no economic or social justification for subsidies? Was not that the reason for it? Will Deputy de Valera, if he proposes to speak in this debate, ask somebody to give him the volume?

Mr. de Valera

I do not care what the volume is.

Mr. de Valera

I know that you can take a particular part of a speech.

The only thing is that, if you think now that a better explanation could have been given, you can say it, of course, now.

Mr. de Valera

It was given then.

I am quoting from a typescript. If this is challenged, I will get the Official Debate. It is column 1138:

"The Government have given careful thought to this problem——"

that is, food subsidies——

"over recent months. They are satisfied that, as incomes generally have already advanced more than the cost of living, and as essential foodstuffs are now no longer scarce, there is now no economic or social justification for a policy of subsidising food for everybody."

Mr. de Valera

A Budget unbalanced by £15,000,000.

Why did not Deputy MacEntee say that?

Mr. de Valera

We said it.

You did not.

Mr. de Valera

We did say it.

There is the introduction to the subsidy. As a matter of fact that is in the right-hand column on the left-hand page but before that you get this phrase:

"Food subsidies were first introduced in October, 1941, to offset prospective increases in flour and bread prices at a time when a wages stabilisation Order was in force and a rise in the cost of living might have caused hardship."

Have a bit of honesty about this. Was not the reason given—whether it was the real reason or not—was not the reason given for slashing the food subsidies that there was no economic or social justification for them?

Mr. de Valera

The reason given was that there was £15,000,000 needed to balance the Budget.

Get column 1138.

Read column 9 of the Dáil Debates where you indicated that it was not the duty of a Government to provide work for the unemployed.

This is scarcely relevant to amendment No. 1.

It is very relevant to Deputy MacEntee's talk about subsidies and the reason the 1952 Budget had to be brought in. If that was allowed, I claim the right to reply.

Deputy MacEntee referred to it in passing and the Deputy will be allowed to do so, but the Deputy is quoting it at length.

It is not a subject I would like to pass over too quickly, as the other side would like to be done.

It is not relevant to amendment No. 1.

Amendment No. 1 is on the basis that there is some money to spare and therefore should be used to reduce income-tax. I prefer to spend the £3,000,000 or so that we had in our hands this year, by heavy effort on our part, on subsidising bread.

Mr. Lemass

But you did not.

By subsidising butter and by giving the relief to the old age pensioners that we gave.

Mr. Lemass

That only cost £1,000,000. What about the other £2,000,000?

Butter represents £2,000,000.

Mr. Lemass

And you got £1,000,000 off the flour subsidy.

I know it is not understood.

You reduced old age pensions.

There is something booming over there like the Tuscar Lighthouse. I wish it could be put out.

Mr. Lemass

That is trying to prevent this wreck. It sees the wreck.

He does. He is looking down at it. I am trying to chart the rocks for the future.

Deputy Davern might allow the speaker to proceed.

Did you say something about Deputy Davern, Sir?

I asked him to allow the speaker to proceed without interruption.

He is not interrupting; he is only making noises; I do not know what they mean. He is going to make another noise. I am sorry. He is in a paroxysm. Am I right in this, that Fianna Fáil did get rid of a certain amount of humbug in their time? The three Deputies I look at lost each a seat. They got rid of four people, some of them wandering disconsolate in the Seanad, some have even retired from the corporation, but they did get rid of four people whose absence we ought to be congratulated on. It is because they backed, against their promises, the people who broke their own promises in their turn.

The answer to what Deputy MacEntee has said—and I want to say it for the last time—is this, that if he is going to try and impress upon the people the reason for his 1952 Budget as being that there was an unbalanced Budget, he forgot to say that in 1952 when he came to the food subsidies.

I have said down the country and I have always got a certain amount of enthusiasm at meetings that I have addressed on this point, that it must be unique in modern politics to have done what Deputy MacEntee did, with the support of all the people then around him, in 1952.

Most Governments go out and do more than they are entitled to for the sake of the betterment of the people and in order to see that they will lead more comfortable lives, be better off and have a rising standard of living. Deputy MacEntee took revenge on the people in 1952. From 1948 to 1951 we had given them a better standard of living than they had previously enjoyed. He said so. That is the great thing you have got to remember. There was no economic or social justification for food subsidies because the increase in wages and salaries had advanced more than the increase in the cost of living. Were we right in saying what we said—that the people were too well off from the Fianna Fáil point of view?

Let us come to taxation and the rates of taxation. Some of these days we will get agreement on what certain words mean. I said there are to be found by a Minister for Finance who was serious about his quest several millions any year. I wonder what Fianna Fáil pretends that means to them?

What does it mean to-night? It might mean a different thing to-morrow.

If the Deputy will carry forward for a fortnight I will be very pleased to give him the information. It means a plurality of millions— more than one. Is that right? If it is not right what does it mean? Give me an interpretation other than more than 1,000,000.

Get counsel's opinion on it.

We have saved nearly £6,000,000.

Why not give it to the people?

You will get the distribution if you wait long enough.

All we are looking for to-night is 1/-.

That is in addition to what we have already saved.

This is the three card trick.

I see three cards in front of me but I do not know what the trick is. Let me get to the point. We have given a subsidy on butter. It is a costly subsidy.

Mr. Lemass

You took it off bread.

The price of bread has not increased so far as we are concerned. That is the great contrast. How much has bread increased by your deliberate efforts? The price of the loaf went up by 50 per cent. That was not a fortuitous thing. You intended that because the people were too well off. That is what you said. We have in any event given a subsidy in regard to butter. Other reliefs have also been given including reliefs for children and other people.

The so-called balanced Budget of last year depended on the £1,000,000 Deputy MacEntee was to get from C.I.E. That was not there this year. There were reliefs given last year, the full impact of which has to be borne this year. They are about £250,000 short of £7,000,000. That is the situation.

We could have accepted a resolution to bring down the income-tax. It would cost £3,000,000. I want to know how many Deputies there are on the opposite side of the House who on a free vote in their Party would vote either to give the old age pensioners relief and have the subsidy on butter or give £3,000,000 in regard to the income-tax. Which would they opt for? Will anybody give me an offer? Would it be for the income-tax, because that is what you are going to vote for? Then we would not have the money to pay the old age pensioners or the money to give for the subsidy on butter. Which is better for the community in this single resolution? I hope I may be allowed to speak of the £10,000,000 that might have been saved at the rate of £1,000,000 per minute.

That is outside the special terms of the amendment.

In support of the amendment the matter of the £10,000,000 was brought in. It is now said by Fianna Fáil that I had said in 1947 that if I were elected to the Department of Finance in 1948 I would have thrown off £1,000,000 per minute and continued that for 11 minutes. According to Deputy Lemass I would have been perfectly right because the ex-Government at which I am looking in October, 1947, had put on taxation to the point at which, according to Deputy Lemass, the £11,000,000 was easy for me to give away to the community in 1948 because it was over-taxation. The only difference apparently between 1947-48 and 1951-52 was the choice of the wrong year. It was said that the circumstances put us into power in 1948 but the circumstances did not put us back in 1951-52. The whole finances of the country got cluttered up to the point where it was impossible to clear up immediately the mess we were left. When we came in the last time we made such a good start that the people opposite are very gloomy.

Let us just go back over the months. When we met about a year ago and announced the butter subsidy Deputy Lemass said it could only be done by sacking civil servants. He thought we would have to get rid of 4,000 civil servants in order to get the money for the butter subsidy. The subsidy was put on and not a single civil servant lost his post. Deputy Lemass said there was only one way of saving money and that was to sack civil servants to get the money for the butter subsidy. We were told the Estimates were going to go up but they did not. We were told there could be no reductions in the Budget but there were.

The Deputy is travelling very far from the terms of the amendment.

I am against this particular reduction because I think we have made better use of the money available to us.

It is interesting to see that the Taoiseach sat where he is ever since 7 o'clock and did not intervene in this debate. He made a slight offer to get up but Deputy Morrissey pressed him back and delivered himself of the words he spoke. Why has not the Taoiseach intervened in this debate? During the 19 long years the Government were in opposition he used to complain year after year about the rate of income-tax.

Deputy McGilligan, the Attorney-General, says that the rate of income-tax was Fianna Fáil's revenge on the people. It is the same income-tax that was put on in 1952. It will collapse unless it is reimposed. Is it for revenge it is going to be reimposed? Is it because the people are too well off that it is being reimposed? That is why they say we imposed it. The Taoiseach should at least say why he is not resigning instead of reimposing this 7/6 income-tax. We will have more to say when the other amendments come up for discussion. No member of the Labour Party has intervened in this debate so far. They all kept as clear of the House as possible——

Nearly as clear as the Deputy for the past month.

——during the Second Reading, but they promised they would see that taxation was reduced. They would not take jobs in the Government until it was. According to Deputy Dunne they would not even discuss taking jobs in the Government until taxation was reduced. Deputy Mulcahy, who is the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, said during the last election that the first thing the Government would do would be to lighten the burden of taxation now crushing the people. It was not something they would do after five years but the first thing they would do. Deputy MacEoin said they would abolish or relieve once again the penal taxes that had been imposed by Fianna Fáil in the 1952 Budget.

The Taoiseach is now leaving without intervening on this amendment, without justifying the imposition of the 7/6 rate of income-tax. Deputy MacEoin did not say when he was speaking to the people on the 28th April last year that they were going to cut out the penal taxes after three or four years. They promised they would do it immediately, as I pointed out. Now last year it was said by the Coalition groups that they could not relieve taxation in three days. They have now had 365 days plus several days to consider the matter.

A plurality.

A multiplicity of days in which to carry out their promises that they would do something immediately. We did not expect them to relieve unemployment, as Deputy Morrissey once said any Government could do, within 24 hours. We did not expect them to do it in 24 hours, but they have now had over a year to carry out the promises of an immediate reduction in taxation.

We did not put the people out of employment as you did.

You put them into employment in England and America as fast as you could, and Deputy O'Donovan said it was one way of relieving the list of unemployed. That is how it is being done.

On a point of order. I said nothing of the kind.

It was quoted here last week.

If the Parliamentary Secretary says he did not say it, that must be accepted.

It has been quoted. I will get the quotation.

Is it in order, Sir?

We will get the quotation.

Until the quotation is produced should the Deputy not withdraw the statement?

The Parliamentary Secretary says he did not make the statement and until the Deputy gives the quotation the statement must be withdrawn.

Until I give the quotation I will withdraw the statement. Somebody else will give the quotation or I will give it later on. What amazes me is the brazenness of the Coalition in regard to this whole matter. There will be another day on which the electors will be consulted and one of the things they will remember, some of them at any rate, is the cynical behaviour of this Government in relation to what they said to the people and the basis on which they got votes at the last general election. There is a lot of lawyers in this Government and their hangers-on may think they can talk themselves out of any situation, but the people will show them, at the first opportunity, that they cannot talk themselves out of that.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted, stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 53.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll: Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard.
Question declared carried.

Immediately before I sat down the Parliamentary Secretary denied he made a certain statement. I said he had made the statement and that I would withdraw it unless I were able to prove that he made it. I now quote from column 489 of Volume 148 of the Official Report:

"After all, we have what has been called the safety valve of emigration. Whether or not you call it a safety valve does not matter a great deal but at least it does help in the problem of creating full employment."

That was a very different thing from what Deputy Aiken says I said.

It is the same thing.

I will not allow any more of this.

I have raised it because the Parliamentary Secretary misled the House, the Chair and the people.

The Deputy said I suggested our people should be employed in England and America.

What else does it mean?

That closes the incident.

During Fianna Fáil's 16 years 500,000 people left the country.

Remember the Tuam beet factory.

I am calling the Chair's attention to the fact that there is so much noise in the House that it is impossible to hear the Chair.

I quite agree with Deputy MacEntee.

That is not unusual, Sir.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 2:—

To add to Section 2 a new subsection as follows:—

Notwithstanding anything contained in the Finance Acts, 1920 to 1954, a taxpayer shall be entitled to make a deduction as aforementioned in respect of each child whose income in his or her own right does not exceed £120 per year.

In this amendment there is nothing contentious. The purpose of it is to ensure that the rate of allowance will be in accordance with the decrease in the value of money. In the recent Budget, the allowance for a child was increased from £85 to £100. Under Section 21 of the Finance Act of 1920, paragraph 3, it is provided that no deduction by way of allowance shall be granted in respect of any child who is entitled in his own right to an income exceeding £40 per annum. The income-tax for a child was increased from £36 in 1922 to £100 in 1955, but no increase has been made in the income which a child can have without affecting the relief to the parent.

I will give the Minister a specific case in point. It is the case of a widower with one child, the child having an income of £49 per annum in his own right. As his income is in excess of the £40, he cannot obtain the child allowance against his income-tax. If he did obtain this allowance it would reduce his income-tax, payable for 1955-56, by £37 10s. If the child had not an income in excess of £40, this taxpayer would be entitled to a housekeeper's allowance which is £100, and it would reduce his income-tax liability by a further £37 10s.

Section 19 of the 1920 Finance Act states, as regards a housekeeper's allowance, that a child means a child in respect of whom a deduction is allowed under this part of the Act. With a child's income over £40, a child allowance is not granted, and, according to the Act, it likewise follows that the housekeeper's allowance cannot be claimed. The individual in this case is paying income-tax at the rate of 7/6 in the £ because his child has an income of £49, or £9 over the statutory figure of £40, and so his income-tax liability is increased by £75. This is made up of £37 10s. on the tax allowance and £37 10s. on the housekeeper's allowance.

I suggest to the Minister that my amendment is most reasonable, and that its acceptance would not cost an awful lot. The value of money has decreased very considerably, but that has never been taken into consideration. The increase in the allowances bears no relation to the actual decrease in monetary values. The allowance in 1922 for a child was £36, and in 1955 it is only £100.

There is a certain amount in the case made by Deputy O'Malley to-night, but he was wrong in the case which he made when speaking on the Budget. On that occasion, he suggested that the parent who invested money in National Loan for one of his children would automatically, by so doing, lose the children's allowance if it brought in an income of over £40 a year. That would not be so, because, in the ordinary way, unless capital funds are set aside as an irrevocable, trust, the income arising from a transaction of the sort mentioned by Deputy O'Malley is treated as the income of the parent and is not treated as the income of the child. That was the case which the Deputy made on that occasion.

On the case that Deputy O'Malley made to-night, his facts are accurate. I agree that it would be proper to have this question somewhat fully examined but I do not think it can be met to the extent which Deputy O'Malley suggests in his amendment. Candidly, I do not think that a mere alteration in that way is all that is necessary. Take the case, for example, of apprentices and learners. We do not want to put them in a worse situation than the child of the better-off person who is not doing anything after she is 16 years. I think there would be a case for easing the effect of the application of the 1920 Act, but I do not want the easing of it to create further anomalies which would mean that we would have to deal with it again in a different way next year.

I suggest to Deputy O'Malley that it might be better if we leave the situation as it is until next year, and until we examine the whole question of this allowance for children, and see how we can fit it in with apprentices and learners.

I would appeal very strongly to the Minister that he should consider this amendment sympathetically.

I could not accept the figure.

That may be. The figure, I think, was chosen by Deputy O'Malley because it seemed to bear some relation to the actual deduction made in respect of a child. I think the Deputy has not done full justice to the case in the way in which he has presented it, because he has presented it entirely on the basis of the person who pays income-tax at the full standard rate. Therefore, his income may be fairly substantial. But, of course, it could happen that the child had an income in his own right derived from a legacy which had been bequeathed to him by some friend of his or by some distant relative, and yet the child's parents might be in comparatively poor circumstances. If that were the position, the parents would be deprived of deducting, for their own benefit, and mind you that is a consideration, the allowances which would be paid to them in respect of the child even if they had a much more substantial income, and the child itself had no income in its own right.

The Minister gave a case in point when he referred to the case which Deputy O'Malley had put on the Second Reading of the Bill. He said that a person might make a substantial investment in, say, a national loan and devote the income for the purpose of educating a child, or something like that.

If that happened, it would still be treated as income of the parent.

That is precisely the point, and the parent will be allowed to make a deduction in respect of each child——

——though he would be much better off perhaps than the other example I tried to outline, the case of a parent in comparatively poor circumstances—say an ordinary middle-class parent, a civil servant or somebody else occupying a clerical position in business and yet through the generosity or testamentary disposition of some distant relative or friend the child might have an income in its own right which would be in excess of £39. I do know, of course, that there are a great many anomalies in relation to various other allowances, not merely the allowances in respect of children, under the income-tax code, but we do not deny any single section of the income-tax payers the benefit of some relaxation merely because we cannot remove every anomaly at one and the same time. It seems to me it would be fitting as the Minister has seen his way, and I am in agreement with him, in respect of the allowances for children, to increase them, that perhaps he would go some way even at this stage to meet Deputy O'Malley's point. I do not think it would impose a very great burden on the Exchequer.

It is not a question of cost that is worrying me.

I know. We did meet him to some extent and he might consider the position in the next Budget or perhaps even before then. The Minister might be able on the Report Stage to bring in an amendment granting an easement in respect of apprentices as well as children under the age of 16 or who are undergoing full-time education.

That aspect of it is extremely difficult. It would not be possible for me to deal with apprentices and learners before the next Budget.

I know there are difficulties but perhaps on the other hand he might meet Deputy O'Malley.

I am always a most reasonable man, and having heard my predecessor, if Deputy O'Malley and my predecessor will be satisfied, I would increase the figure to £60 to make it quite clear that it would exclude, therefore, a holding of £1,000 in any of the national loans for example.

That is something to go on.

That would be increasing it by 50 per cent. The cost would not be of a very substantial nature but I could not consider going anything higher than that until I had gone into whole question of apprentices and learners. If the Deputy will accept that, I will introduce an amendment.

I will accept that.

I wanted to make one section amicable, anyway.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Perhaps before we pass the section the Minister would give us some idea of the purpose which is to be served. Would not this put businessses carried on for the purpose of charity in a very favourable position as compared with businesses carried on in order to provide those who work in them or who own them with a livelihood?

I think the Deputy has misunderstood the position. There are certain schools, for example, where because some of the teachers in the school are paid teachers and are not therefore working within the terms of the charitable purpose of the order which runs the school, that has the effect at present of disentitling them to the relief. There are equally other cases of lay schools where the whole foundation and purpose is a charitable trust but because of the fact again that the masters are paid they would not be qualified without the section. Similarly, there are nursing homes attached to some of the hospitals in Dublin which are at present assessable to tax. The effect of this section will be that if those nursing homes are run for purely charitable purposes and it is the primary purpose of the charity to run the nursing home like that it will not be assessed.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

On Section 4, the Tánaiste promised me on the Second Reading of this Bill that he would answer a point I made on the Second Reading in relation to this section. As the Tánaiste has come in and gone off again I would like some one of the Labour Party to explain their attitude on Section 4 in relation to their attitude on the postponement of the Health Act. Under Section 4 the Minister gives a relief. Reliefs from a Minister for Finance are always welcome, but I want to know will some member of the Labour Party explain to me why it is that they have agreed to postpone the Health Act which gives relief to the lower and middle sections of the community, the small farmers and the middle sized farmers—why they deny them the reliefs of the Health Act, and jump in to give reliefs to income-tax and surtax payers.

It used to be that the Labour Party were very keen on no means test. Now there is no means test if you have £600 or £700 a year. There is no means test over that. Anybody over that they are prepared to help if he insures himself and his family against medical expenses and hospital expenses, but below that there is a means test and they will not give this subvention from the State as a help to the people who are not income-tax payers to insure themselves even though they are not getting any benefit from the Health Act.

Under the Health Act a man who has a national health card pays for his stamp every week but can still only get medical benefit for himself—nothing for his wife and nothing for his children whether they are one month or ten months or ten years in hospital. If he has paid his national health stamp and he wants to insure his family he has to pay his full part. If he has a wife and three children he does not become an income-tax payer until he has £600 a year. If he wants to insure himself, he has to pay a full £ note of his own earnings for every £ which the insurance will cost him, but a surtax payer will get the State to help him, to give him a subsidy on every £ he pays to insure himself and his family.

I want to know why it is the Labour Party are so anxious that the surtax payer should get this subsidy, while at the same time they appear to be anxious to deny the rights of the Health Act to the ordinary workman on national health who is stamping a card or to the small or medium sized farmer under £50 valuation. That is a fair question to put to the Labour Party and it is a fair question to put to members of Fine Gael.

It is a very foolish question.

The Tánaiste said he would answer. There are now three or four members of the Labour Party here and I want them to carry out the promise made by the Tánaiste to answer it, and to answer it to the satisfaction of the people.

Are you sincere?

The last venture of the Tánaiste in Social Welfare was his increase in the national health stamp away back in 1948.

That does not arise on this.

This is an insurance against sickness. There is another class of people paying a tax for insurance benefit. They are paying it to the State and their tax was increased by 6d., but they got no increase in benefit.

That does not arise on this.

These people are getting a subsidy and they are getting it, I am sure, partly at the expense of the people who are giving the extra 6d. on the national health stamp, the workers, without getting any increase in benefit.

I have told the Deputy that that does not arise relevantly on this. I am allowing the Deputy to proceed, but I am not going to allow him to go back as he seeks to do.

This section deals with the person who insures himself against medical and hospital expenses and there are two types of people who do that.

The provisions introduced a year or two ago in respect of Social Welfare do not relevantly fall for discussion on this and the Deputy will confine himself to the terms of the section.

The section deals with people who insure themselves against hospital, nursing home or sanatorium expenses or against medical expenses. There are two classes of people in this country who do that. One class goes to an insurance company and pays a premium. When a person in that class falls ill or when a member of his family falls ill, he sends the bill to the insurance office. In the other case, the State compels people to pay their insurance premium to the State and normally one would expect that the State would be as generous as the insurance company, and that when such an insured person sends in his bill, the State would meet the expenses, but the State will only do that if he has over £700 a year. That is the means test. If a man, his wife and three children are insured with the State, the State charges him more than it used to charge him owing to the Tánaiste's activities in the previous Government, but the Tánaiste left that person to draw exactly the same benefit as he drew when his premium was less.

The Deputy is deliberately ignoring the instructions of the Chair in this matter——

He is too dumb to understand.

——I have told him that the provisions of the Social Welfare Act do not fall relevantly for discussion on this section. The Deputy must confine himself to the section before the House. I am not going to discuss the matter any further with the Deputy.

I want to deal with an interruption by some member of the Labour Party, if I may be allowed. He has said I was too dumb to understand. Why are they so dumb on this Bill and on the Health Act?

Why ask foolish questions?

They are being as mute as mice on this business, but they will walk into the Division Lobby to support giving a subsidy to a person with a wife and three children with over £600 a year and they are also going to walk into the Division Lobby to postpone giving the benefits of the Health Act to people under that figure.

Of course, you are all wrong and you know it.

There are only two of you, so keep quiet.

Do I understand Deputy Aiken seriously to object to this section, or is he going in for another piece of the play-acting we had earlier from Deputy Lemass? Deputy Aiken knows perfectly well that the position of the type of people he mentions is entirely different. No question of a subsidy is involved in this and it is not merely the person with the larger income who will get the benefit. The type of person to whom an insurance like that appeals is not the person with a large income, but the smaller middle-class person who would be in a situation, Health Act or no Health Act, of having himself to find his own medical expenses. The figures the Deputy gave have no relation whatever to the truth of this. The Deputy himself knows quite well, without my explaining it to him, what exact figures would be covered.

The Minister has made a few remarks which have no relevancy at all to what I said. The fact is that a man with £600 per year, with a wife and three children, pays no income-tax.

Therefore, he is denied the advantages of the Health Act and will get no help from the State to insure himself and his wife and family against illness or hospital expenses; but if, instead of having £600 per year and a wife and three children, he has £6,000 or £60,000, the State is going to give him a subvention.

Does the Deputy really seriously suggest that this sort of people use insurance like this?

That is the fact and that is the law.

Question put and agreed to.

The Labour Party support it dumbly.

The Deputy has a hard neck to talk about it.

Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.

Amendments Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 can be discussed together.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment No. 3:—

Before Section 7 to insert a new section as follows:—

Sub-section (2) of Section 14 of the Finance Act, 1954 (No. 22 of 1954) is amended by the deletion of "nine pounds, four shillings and sixpence" and the substitution of "five pounds, twelve shillings" therefor.

All these amendments deal with beer. I am sorry if I have to irritate members of the Labour Party further, but the fact is that my study of the election records shows that promises in regard to beer were far more definite from members of the Labour Party than from members of Fine Gael. These promises were quite definite and I am certain that they will not be repudiated. They cannot very well be, in view of the character of them.

Do you remember what your Leader said about light beer?

Mr. Lemass

This promise relates to all forms of beer. They started off with a circular issued by the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Norton. Deputy Norton, as a candidate in his constituency, sent a letter signed by himself to all the publicans in the constituency, a letter in which he said:—

"In view of the serious effect of increased taxation on cigarettes, beer and spirits, which no doubt has had an injurious effect on your trade, I trust that you will find it possible to give me your number one vote in the forthcoming election——"

That was as distinct from voting for Deputy Sweetman.

"——and kindly ask your relatives and friends to do likewise, so that with the aid of the Labour Party I may advocate in the new Dáil a reduction of the taxes which so adversely affect your business and the consumers generally."

This is the new Dáil. If that promise or undertaking of the present Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce to the publicans in his constituency is to be redeemed, it has to be redeemed now. It is here he has to advocate the reduction of the taxes "which are so adversely affecting their business". I hope some member of Deputy Norton's Party will support me here this evening in advocating a reduction of those taxes.

We did not support you when you put them up.

Mr. Lemass

Will you support us in taking them down? Mind you, none of us think that the taxes will come down. We know quite well that the taxes are not going to come down— and Deputy Norton on that occasion did not assert that they would come down but said he himself would advocate in the Dáil their reduction. That is what I am doing—on his behalf, shall we say?—with the moral support, if not the vocal support, of the Labour Party.

What about Deputy MacEntee in Rathmines and Deputy Lemass in Cork?

Mr. Lemass

I will take support from any quarter. We know that Deputy Dunne and Deputy Casey both said on behalf of their Party that they would not join any Coalition until they got an undertaking that this tax would be reduced. Of course, Deputy Davin's word of honour and several similar equally definite pledges were given.

I want to thank the Minister for Finance for having sent me over this copy of his election leaflet, because this is precisely the type of thing I have been talking about. When I was talking about fraud on the people and about humbug, it was this leaflet I had in mind. This was a leaflet issued by the Fine Gael Party in the recent election. Deputy Sweetman, I admit, cut out a lot of the trimmings, whereas the Leader of the Party issued the same leaflet with a lot of additional wording about reducing high taxation, reducing rates, and about the high cost of living. Deputy Sweetman, being a lawyer, thought it unwise to commit himself that far, so he issued the leaflet in this form. Here is set out in pictorial form a list of commodities with the price of each and headed: "1954—after three years of Fianna Fáil, these prices operated". On the other hand there is another column, similar in character, headed: "1951—with the inter-Party in power, these prices operate".

Good stuff, is it not?

Mr. Lemass

The comment is "Answer this with your vote—1, Sweetman". What was the ordinary member of the public intended to take from that leaflet?

To put you out.

Mr. Lemass

Was that leaflet intended to lead him to believe that if the Coalition Party went back into power these 1951 prices would be restored?

We did not want them to forget what you had done for them.

Mr. Lemass

Was he expected to believe that? I must prefer the flatfooted promises of the Labour Party, the frank dishonesty of the Labour Party, to this type of lawyer's quibbling. So far as the Labour Party was concerned, there was no limit to the promises. The price of beer was to come down. There was an undertaking that it would come down before they would even support a Coalition.

We were not as definite as you were in the previous election.

Mr. Lemass

They were as definite as that. No one could possibly have been more definite than that.

Remember the 17-point programme.

Mr. Lemass

You went frankly to the people and pointed out that there was no limit to your promises. Never was so much promised to so many by so few.

Mr. Lemass

The most definite of the promises was that the price of beer would come down, that the price which according to this leaflet in 1954 was 1/3 would be reduced to 11d. You said that.

Mr. Lemass

What is more, you said you would not join a Coalition until, before it was formed, there was an undertaking given that that would be done. I know you did not mean that and events have shown that the Labour Party did not mean that, that the promise was given with their tongues in their cheeks and that it was broken in the week of the election.

Deputy Tully should cease his interruptions.

Mr. Lemass

I think more credit should be given to the Labour Party for their blatant, open dishonesty than should be given for this type of business—the poor sucker was led to think that this was a promise to reduce prices, but the lawyer was there to say: "I did not say that, I did not commit myself in so many words."

You said in the election that they were making no promises.

Mr. Lemass

Was this intended to be a promise? What exactly was it intended to convey to the public?

To show that you had put up all those prices during your three years of office and that you put them up deliberately.

Mr. de Valera

Therefore, you must bring them down.

Mr. Lemass

That was what Deputy Sweetman had in mind, but the Leader of the Party thought he had better point a moral, because he printed the same leaflet, from the same block——

I have not got a copy of it.

Mr. Lemass

Ah, but I have.

Let us have a look.

Mr. Lemass

It says:

"(a) All these increases in prices have been deliberately imposed by the present Government;

(b) They have taken unnecessary sums from your pocket by increases in taxation and in rates."

Mr. de Valera

Restore them.

Mr. Lemass

It continues:

"(c) They believe that they can spend your money better than you can yourself;

(d) Do you want relief from high taxes, high rates and the cost of living?"

Mr. de Valera

Give it to them.

Mr. Lemass

It continues:

"Do you want to live and spend your money in your way? If so, change the Government by voting in the order of your choice for the Fine Gael candidates."

The Minister for Education, then Deputy Mulcahy, is not a lawyer and did not appreciate the difficulties which would be caused to himself by putting these trimmings on to the Fine Gael leaflet. The cute Minister, then Deputy Sweetman, made it more ambiguous—"Answer this with your vote!" Answer what?

Answer the way you deliberately increased the prices.

Mr. Lemass

May I take it that this leaflet was not intended to convey to the electorate that a Fine Gael Govment would reduce these prices? Was that leaflet not intended to convey to the voters that these prices would be reduced?

It showed your record and that is what you do not like.

Mr. Lemass

Will you give me a "yes" or "no"? Was that leaflet intended to convey to the voters the suggestion that these prices be reduced?

What price is butter there?

Mr. Lemass

They will squirm and twist and run away, but they will not answer the question—but the public will answer it.

Sure, they did— emphatically.

Mr. Lemass

Perhaps even the publicans will answer it. Just at the present time, I am told there are going around the country emissaries of the Fine Gael Party asserting on behalf of the Fine Gael organisation——

Who told you?

Mr. Lemass

——that this increase in the price of beer or whiskey they are looking for will come after the local elections. They promised a reduction in the price, but right now the agents of the Fine Gael Party are promising the publicans an increase in price, but saying: "Do not press for it until after the local elections,"

How many publicans have you in your Party?

Mr. Lemass

That method of doing business is a bit discreditable. I am sure those publicans, being very innocent men, will respond to that promise, made sub rosa at the moment, and will cough in with their contributions to the local election fund and give their support for the Fine Gael candidates. Perhaps they may even get the increase in the price after the local elections and, once again, we will have the usual attempt of justifying that course by the Fine Gael Party. Once again we will have the usual chorus of silence from the Labour Party and perhaps even an attempt to put the blame on Fianna Fáil.

That was not what you said here when the Budget speech was read out.

Mr. Lemass

"Fine Gael will lighten the load". There is a picture here of the strong hand of Fine Gael lifting off the backs of the citizens the extra cost of the bread, sugar, cigarettes, butter, and so on. By the way, butter was to be reduced to 2/10 a lb.

It was 4/2 a lb. then, Will Deputy Lemass tell the House how much it was?

Mr. Lemass

How much is it?

It is less than it would be if Fianna Fáil were in office.

Whatever it is, it does not arise now.

Mr. Lemass

There is a comment on the price of fancy bread, biscuits——

What about the Ballina biscuit factory?

Mr. Lemass

This is the end of the Ballina biscuit factory. Deputy O'Hara can go back to the people of Ballina and tell them that they can put the biscuit factory up the spout. With the price of biscuits now to be doubled, existing biscuit factories will find it hard enough to keep their workers employed.

According to Fine Gael and the Labour Party, the poor people do not want biscuits anyway.

A bun is a luxury to the poor now.

Mr. Lemass

There has been no reduction in the price of sugar, tea, cigarettes, petrol, wireless licences, postage or in income-tax or, for that matter, vehicle duties. Indeed, I notice that in recent weeks members of Fine Gael are going around telling the public about how much money is going to come from the Road Fund this year for work on county roads. They talk as if they were giving out this money themselves, money which came into the Road Fund by reason of this increase in taxation which they opposed but which they do not mention when they are speaking at the crossroads. To listen to them, one would think they were paying it out of their own pockets. It is no laughing matter.

I am merely laughing at the Deputy's relevancy.

Mr. Lemass

The main thing on this sheet is the price of the pint—and the undertaking given by the Labour Party was that the price of the pint would be reduced from 1/3d to 11d. The suggestion in the Fine Gael leaflet was that a reduction of that dimension would be undertaken.

You caused all that.

Mr. Lemass

Here it is submitted to the Dáil now. Here is an amendment to this Bill which, if carried, will reduce the price of the pint to exactly the extent you undertook.

Deputy Lemass is a generous man.

What is Deputy Lemass quoting from?

Mr. Lemass

These are Fine Gael leaflets. Does Deputy Tully want to hear himself. Of course, I am prepared to do this. If Deputy Tully will say here and now that he did not promise to reduce the price of beer, that he did not promise to advocate in the Dáil a reduction in the price of beer, I will accept it. But he must promise it in such a way that the people of County Meath will hear it. Is that not fair? I will accept Deputy Tully's word if he says it in such a way that it will be heard by the people of County Meath that he never undertook to advocate in this House a reduction in the price of beer.

Of course, I did not do any such thing. That would be telling an untruth.

Mr. Lemass

That is a double negative.

It would be untrue to say that he did not advocate it.

And he expects to see it carried into effect some day.

Hear, hear! "Some day". Live horse and you will get grass.

When you are gone with Kitt.

Wait until you are here as long as I am.

I have a better record.

Mr. Lemass

That pledge was repeated after the election in the corresponding debate here last year on the Finance Bill by Deputy Dunne.

That was like your pledge to maintain the subsidies.

Mr. Lemass

He said: "I am satisfied that this Government will reduce the cost of living." As reported at column 920 of Volume 146 of the Official Report, Deputy Dunne said:—

"As a Labour Party representative and as one who told the people that I stood for a reduction in the cost of living, I am satisfied this Government will reduce the cost of living; that it will reduce not alone butter, but bread, tea, sugar, tobacco, cigarettes and the worker's pint."

There is no standstill Order on wages, such as you imposed.

Mr. Lemass

Let us stick to the pint at the moment. I want to make it quite clear that, on this amendment, we are talking about the price of the pint. I know Deputy O'Leary wants the price of whiskey to go up because he considers that whiskey is only drunk by Americans——

With respect to Deputy Lemass, nobody would know that he was talking about the price of the pint.

Mr. Lemass

That undertaking was given in this House last year in the corresponding debate by a member of the Labour Party. Here is another quotation. "Calling all Trade Unionists. Now is your chance to protect the standard of life in your home. Vote Labour. To housewives: Remember the Fianna Fáil hunger Budget. What happened after the 1952 Budget when Mr. MacEntee slashed the food subsidies—bread, butter, sugar and flour went up—Fianna Fáil deliberately increased these prices at the behest of the Central Bank."

Mr. de Valera

And the Coalition Government are keeping them up at the behest of the Central Bank, I suppose.

Mr. Lemass

"The Labour Party is pledged to reduce these prices and return to you the right to control the economy of your home. Rise now in your wrath and demand that the Labour policy be given effect to. Vote Tully No. 1.""Rise now in your wrath——"

So they did.

And was it not most effective wrath?

I made a few calculations on this subject recently. First of all, I tried to estimate what the cost of the pint was in terms of a worker's weekly wages when Deputy MacEntee introduced his Budget in May, 1952. I found that, before he introduced his Budget, the ratio was 1:20. Subsequent to the introduction of Deputy MacEntee's Budget, the raio was 1:95.

Mr. Lemass

What is it now?

That is what I am coming to if the Deputy will permit me. At the moment, the ratio is 1:110 according to the last figures we have available, the December, 1954, figures.

Mr. Lemass

A worker can only buy 110 pints.

In my opinion, there is a big difference between the maintenance of a tax at a rate where the ratio is 1:110 and the imposition of a tax creating a ratio of 1:95—and you can go through all these amendments in the same way as, in fact, I will.

Mr. de Valera

And give a balanced Budget now and you had a £15,000,000 deficit——

That was not the reason given.

The Leader of the Opposition has mentioned £15,000,000 several times. I do not mind dealing with it.

Mr. de Valera

I would love to hear you.

I would rather it were dealt with on the Fifth Stage.

We will leave it to the Fifth Stage. Might I say that if the taxation on beer was reduced in the way in which Deputy Lemass has suggested, the cost would be about £2,500,000?

Mr. Lemass

What? Deputy McGilligan will save the Government £20,000,000 in a few minutes.

I do not believe that a reduction, for example, of one penny—that was a reduction about which there was a good deal of talk before the Budget—would have been of very much use. I do not believe it would help either the licensed trade or the ordinary common man. The fact of the matter is, as I said before, the Minister had not £2,500,000 for this purpose this year in order to bring the price back to where it had been at one stage.

Mr. Lemass

That is all I wanted the Parliamentary Secretary to say.

It has been suggested also, I think by Deputy Davern as a matter of fact, that the Fine Gael Party got £30,000 from the licensed trade. Am I misquoting the Deputy?

Not a penny.

I do not believe the Fine Gael Party ever had £30,000 at any time, and they are not likely to have it. They are not likely to get that from any group in this country and they will never be as wealthy as Fianna Fáil has been from time to time.

We would not get £30,000 in 30 years.

Mr. Lemass

Do not exaggerate.

Deputy Lemass said that a promise was now being touted around the country that the price would be reduced and the publicans would get some concession——

Mr. Lemass

I said that the price would be increased.

——that the price would be increased and the publicans would get a concession after the local elections. I do not think Deputy Lemass believes that for one moment, but he does not mind saying it.

Mr. Lemass

Will they or will they not?

Will they what or will they not what?

Mr. Lemass

Will they get an increase in the price of the pint?

He knows very well. He always sends a hare out.

The Deputy made great play with the leaflet. One thing about that leaflet is that every statement in it is correct. There is not an inaccurate statement in it. If there had been a comma wrong, we would have heard all about it.

The licensed trade are particularly unfortunate in that the Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce is absent from the House. I want to remind them of what they have lost by his absence.

On the 3rd May of last year there was a letter sent from the election headquarters, Railway Hotel, and in that letter there was the following statement:

"In view of the serious effect of increased taxation on cigarettes, beer and spirits, which no doubt has had an injurious effect on your trade, I trust that you will find it possible to give me your No. 1 vote in the forthcoming election and kindly ask your relatives and friends to do likewise so that with the aid of the Labour Party I may advocate in the new Dáil a reduction of the tax which so adversely affected your business and the consumers generally. —Mise le meas, William Norton, T.D."

You should copy that next time.

No. To whatever depths a public man may sink I sincerely hope he never sinks as low as Deputy Norton, the present Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce.

The Deputy himself went very low.

Since the Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Norton, is not here to talk for himself, we are asking Deputy Corish—I had better take the senior members first—Minister for Social Welfare, or, if not Deputy Corish, then Deputy O'Leary or Deputy James Tully, to get up here and advocate in the new Dáil a reduction of the taxes "which so adversely affected your business and the consumers generally." Now Deputy Norton's heart at that time was not bleeding merely for the publicans; that heart of his is so big that it could afford to bleed for the consumers, the publican's customers also. We are merely asking the people who made these promises to honour their pledges now.

It was the Deputy who did all the damage.

It may be difficult to do that, but it was the people opposite who gave the pledges. I realise their difficulties. They have twitted me with the fact that I am supposed to have given a pledge in Rathmines Town Hall in June 1951.

The 14th May, 1951, and it was reported on the 15th May.

In the Finance Bill, 1951, I did not increase; I did not increase in the Budget the duty on beer and spirits and so on because I did not know it would be necessary to do so. I will say quite frankly I was hoping against hope it would not be necessary to do so. I was hoping that my predecessor, the Coalition Minister for Finance, had brought in a balanced Budget and that it would not be necessary for me to increase. But in the circumstances of 1952 I did increase the duty on beer and spirits and the people opposite have said, of course, that that was unfair to the consumer.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce in the present Government said he would advocate a reduction in those taxes. The Minister for Defence promised that there would be a reduction; he made no bones about it. Now, since neither General MacEoin, Minister for Defence, nor Deputy Norton, Minister for Industry and Commerce, will do what they pledged themselves to do we are making the case that the people on the opposite side of the House, having given these promises, ought to keep them. I think the people opposite could do that with a certain degree of equanimity because, after all, the Attorney-General has told them he could save this year £6,000,000 or more. Now why not give some of that £6,000,000 back to the people from whom the Government is taking it?

It is not we who are collecting the taxes on beer and spirits now. It is the Coalition Government. It is the members of the Fine Gael Party and the members of the Labour Party and the one or two people who call themselves Independents and who always tag on behind. They are the people who are now collecting these taxes. They are the people who are now making the consumer pay 1/3 for his pint. If they regard their pledged words as being of any worth, if they do not feel that the circumstances of the time make it impossible for them to keep those pledges, it is in their power now to reduce the price of the pint and, by voting for this amendment, they will be able to do that.

I do not know whether they have been coerced into maintaining the duty on beer and spirits at their present level out of regard for the public interest. If they have regard for the public interest, quite frankly they can do nothing else except maintain them at their present level. But if they have regard for the pledges they gave the people, then they will have to come in and vote for this amendment. For pity's sake do not do this: do not let one of the two interests concerned in this amendment have it all their own way. If they vote for our amendment and reduce the duty on beer and spirits, then everyone who is interested in beer and spirits will benefit; the consumer will benefit and the public will benefit.

I understand there is a move on foot to which Deputy Lemass has already referred; it is alleged that though the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Norton, is not prepared to advocate a reduction in the tax on beer and spirits, nevertheless, he is going to give to the publicans what might be described as occult compensation; after the election, on the advice of the Prices Advisory Body, the Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce will sign an Order authorising an increase in the price of beer.

Now we would like to be quite clear about this. Will that be done? Is that how the publicans will be compensated for the loyal support which they have given to the Fine Gael Party and also to certain sections of the Labour Party for a great number of years? Is that to be done at the expense of the consumers? If there is to be a question of any relief to be given it should be given as it was given in last year's budget, the budget of 1954, by way of a reduction in duty which will compensate the publicans for the increase in their costs. After all, it should not cost so very much. The relief given last year cost, I think, about £250,000. I am not saying it is sufficient.

When I was introducing last year's Budget I said I recognised the position in which the publicans found themselves and that I felt that some relief should be given to them in order to prevent an increase in the prices of beer and spirits to the consumers, and I brought in what was then contemptuously referred to as "the farthing in the pint". Now, add another farthing to it and it will not cost so very much. Or, be more generous, and add three farthings to it and that will ensure that the price of beer to the consumers will not go up, and, according to the Attorney-General, it will not bankrupt the Exchequer but it will at least be an honest kind of deal with the public as distinct from the publicans. It will be honest in this way, that at any rate it will not make things any worse for the public while it will make them better for the publicans. On the other hand if the Government does not do what we want them to contemplate doing it will be another case of the public being fleeced in order to provide occult compensation for a private interest.

Deputy Davern repeated, by way of interjection here to-night, a statement he made either on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill or during the Budget debate that Fine Gael had received £30,000 from the publicans. I happen to be one of the two trustees of the Fine Gael Party and I want to brand that statement as just being entirely untrue. No such sum or anything like one-thirtieth of such sum was received by the Fine Gael Party.

At any time since I came into that Party and that was a great many years ago.

It is perfectly correct.

I came on to the Standing Committee of the Party before Deputy Lemass issued his Twelve Just Men advertisement and before the dance hall proprietor—Miss Morris—issued her circular to the members of her committee.

Deputy Lemass also made a statement a second ago that I want again to characterise as being just untrue, that emissaries from the Fine Gael Party were going down the country to the publicans telling them that they would get an increase in the prices after the elections. That is untrue.

Mr. Lemass

There are people who know whether they did or not.

It is untrue. There is one extraordinary thing about the Fianna Fáil Party in regard to the price of beer. When they are over on the far side of the House they always want to reduce it; when they come over to this side of the House they want to increase it.

Mr. Lemass

What do you do?

Now, Deputy Lemass will have to wait for one minute. When they were over here in 1947 they increased it. When they went over there they immediately started at the beginning of 1948, clamouring at once that the price should be reduced. They were clamouring for that the first day the Dáil met at that time. But, as the Attorney-General pointed out, we were able to reduce them because we got into power before the effect of Fianna Fáil action at that time had seeped right down through the economy. We made the position quite clear that we thought we would be able to do the same if we came in within the same period in 1952. The people thought otherwise and one of the reasons that the people thought otherwise was the election that was held down in the West where Deputy Kennedy—I do not know whether he is here this evening— told the people at that time, at a fair day meeting down there, that the suggestion that the Fianna Fáil Party, if returned to power, were going to take the subsidies off was entirely untrue. Of course, the election was on——

Mr. Lemass

After the Budget of 1952.

After the Budget of 1952, after you had issued the books for the children's allowances in only the three counties in which the by-elections were being held before they were due to be issued and before you had increased the prices.

That is correct.

The Government of that day picked out the three counties and issued the books in those counties alone in advance of the correct date. However, I had better get back to beer.

Get back to the pint.

It is an extraordinary thing about the Fianna Fáil Party that immediately they are over there the pint becomes of great interest to them, but when they are over here the price is always slapped on straightway.

Mr. de Valera

We will put that Party over here.

Deputy de Valera cannot in that way avoid the responsibility for what his Party did. He did not deny the statement that was made by Deputy Lemass on the 12th May, 1951. Deputy de Valera by his silence——

Mr. Lemass

Read what I did say.

I am going to quote it for you in a minute. Deputy de Valera by his silence accepted the statement that was made by Deputy Lemass on the 12th May, 1951, when he said:—

"A Coalition Minister had said that Fianna Fáil, if elected would immediately increase taxes on been and tobacco. That suggestion seemed to emanate from guilty consciences. Why should any increase in taxes be necessary?"

There was no reason why we should impose these taxes, he said.

Mr. Lemass

That is not the whole sentence. I said: "If, as he said, the Budget was balanced."

That is the full stop.

Mr. Lemass

No, it is not the full stop. What I said was: If what he said was true, if the Budget balanced.

That is all, I am afraid, the Sunday Press published.

Mr. Lemass

The Sunday Press published the whole of it.

That is all the Sunday Press published. Then, Deputy MacEntee at Rathmines Town Hall referred to rumours being spread that if Fianna Fáil were returned to Government the taxes imposed in the supplementary Budget of 1947 would be reimposed and said there was no truth whatever in that.

Neither was there.

Mr. de Valera

No, because we had to find £15,000,000. You are keeping things up for the same reason that we had to impose these taxes.

He said there was no truth whatever in that.

But it was done.

Now, undo it; that is all we ask.

Mr. Lemass

Or admit we are agreed that it cannot be done.

And then we have the exhibition by the Fianna Fáil Party again out in the wilderness, and as soon as they go into the wilderness they always get an attack of repentance. They become sorry for all the wrongs they have done while on this side of the House and they come in and try and make them good. The time they should have done it was when they were sitting on these benches, when they had the opportunity.

Mr. de Valera

You have the opportunity now. Why do you not take it?

The people will not be fooled by the play-acting that is going on.

Mr. de Valera

You have the opportunity now, why not take it? Answer the question as to why you cannot do it. You cannot do it because you could not balance the Budget without these taxes.

Deputy de Valera is very much senior to me and I do not like being impertinent to a senior person.

Mr. de Valera

Go ahead. Forget about that.

But I think the Deputy would have been wiser, if he was going to take the line that he took in 1952, if he had come in then with the case that he is making now.

Mr. de Valera

I had a £15,000,000 deficit. You have a surplus.

If the Deputy does not want to listen to me, I will not bother.

He is getting old.

Mr. Davern rose.

The lighthouse is taking an awfully long time to warm up.

Is it Tuscar or Tulyar you are talking about?

A discussion on beer will make my throat much better.

Whenever Tulyar is brought in here he will be a lot more useful than many members of the Labour Party.

You should know.

I was amazed when I heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government saying that a reduction of 1d. in the pint would not be of any consequence to the consumer or the brewer. How he got that foolish idea into his head, I do not know. It is only equalled by another foolish statement he made concerning the price of pigs on one occasion. He forgot the members of the licensed trade, who have been so very, very good to the organisation to which the Parliamentary Secretary now belongs.

There is no doubt in the mind of anybody in this country, especially of anybody associated with the licensed trade even in a remote way, that the licensed trade need help at the moment. The recession in trade for the past year merits the serious consideration of the Government, if they intend that their tax collectors should continue. That is really all you can call publicans. To a great extent they are the tax collectors for the State and there is hardly any other section of the community that I know that help in such a large way to fill the coffers of the Exchequer in this and possibly in every other country.

The recession in trade is one reason why they should have a reduction of 1d. in the pint or, as Deputy MacEntee said, ¾d. We will agree to ¾d. and let that go towards helping the members of the licensed trade to continue their business, pay their staff and so on.

The Government took over control with a balanced Budget. They had not a deficit of £15,000,000 to meet. Therefore, there is no excuse. In addition the revenue is increased by over £3,000,000 this year and it is only fair that, if the licensed trade has for many, many years been carrying a burden, they should now get a certain amount of consideration.

The Minister may try to get out of this position by saying or implying to the licensed trade that the members of Fianna Fáil are not serious in advocating help for them. That is not true. There is no use in the Minister saying: "When you were over on this side you advocated an increase and when you are on that side you want a reduction."

Is not that true?

Circumstances will always demand from every Party with a responsibility in this House that they will do the right thing when occasion demands it, when the national interest demands it——

When they are put out.

——or when a certain section of the community, like the licensed traders of Dublin and elsewhere to-day, deserve and require and are depending for existence on some relief or another. There is no use in saying anything else. That is exactly what must be in the minds of every Deputy who will go to the trouble of examining the position of the licensed trade at the moment.

There is a demand before the members of the trade here at the moment for an increase in wages. We cannot say anything about that but I know that members of the trade are not able to meet any demand on present profits. Therefore, I would urge the Minister very strongly to consider the question, even at this late hour, of adopting the formula of his predecessor, Deputy MacEntee.

We are supposed to be the hardhearted people, the big bad wolves, who always imposed unnecessary and deliberate taxation but we are the only Party who have advocated a livelihood for the members of the licensed trade. Rates have gone up, and so on, and other overhead expenses have increased and if reliefs are not forthcoming, I state quite candidly that the Minister will be killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

She was killed long ago.

The Deputy voted to kill her.

If Deputy O'Leary had gone to Butlin's Camp to-day we would have a little more peace. I can assure the Minister that the ¼d. reduction in the duty on beer was very much appreciated by the licensed trade but there is a demand for a further reduction owing to the serious trade recession. I see no reason why the Minister would not, even at this late stage, accede to the request of a section of the community who have given such good service to the nation. Whatever their contribution to the Fine Gael Party, whether it was 10/- or 15/- or £1 or £2 short of £30,000—it was in the region of £30,000—it was a very bad investment. Certainly, Deputy McGilligan's investment of the £900,000 odd for the civil servants on the eve of the election was a much better investment and showed greater dividends. There is no question about that.

I ask the Minister seriously to consider this question. I know that representations have been made to him directly by the trade and I know that he has had a full and fair picture of the present position. My opinion is that revenue would not lose in any way substantially by continuing the reduction on the lines of what I would call Deputy MacEntee's formula. Deputy MacEntee was painted as he was by Deputy O'Leary especially, who would not know the taste of porter from gall and vinegar.

Thank God for that, because you have made pioneers out of half the country.

I sincerely hope that the fact that we have made pioneers of half the country, as suggested by Deputy O'Leary, will not be added to our many "crimes". That formula will certainly be a great help. A responsible man like the present Tánaiste, over his own signature, assured the licensed trade personally that he would use his position either as a Deputy or as Minister to help them in their troubles. If the Tánaiste saw troubles a year ago for the licensed trade and if he realised and appreciated that they needed help, surely he must be convinced beyond yea or nay by now that the licensed trade needs some stimulant other than beer to keep them going? I am sure the Licensed Traders' Association made a convincing case to the Minister for that reduction but I should like to point out to the Minister that this concerns rural Deputies.

The price of the pint of stout in Dublin is 1/3 and the price in the country is 1/2. A penny on the pint is a very serious matter and rural publicans in rural areas must, of necessity, put up with that meagre profit. As I said, I do not know whether or not any case is being put up by rural Deputies. Few of them are members of the licensed trade. If the publicans in Dublin are entitled to consideration in a substantial way— and I think they are—surely the publicans in the rural areas are in a somewhat worse position? I hope the Minister will do something in respect of the matter.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 54; Níl, 61.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Connor, John.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll.
Amendment declared lost.
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