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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1955

Vol. 152 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £278,740 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for salaries and other expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including public concerts.

In introducing this Estimate I would like to express my appreciation to Deputies on all sides of the House for their forbearance during the year in refraining from putting down parliamentary questions on the ordinary day-to-day running of broadcasting. Both my predecessor and myself asked for this indulgence in order to give a full and fair trial to the experimental organisation set up in 1953 of operating the broadcasting service through a comhairle or council who had not a special broadcasting statute to give them legal powers such as they have in other countries. The House has generally accepted this experiment in the spirit in which it was undertaken and Deputies have been very fair in refraining from criticism of the free expression of opinion on controversial matters which is now permitted on the radio even where they might think that particular statements made in the course of radio discussions or particular items of news were harmful to the interests of their Parties. There has been a welcome absence of questions on Party lines about sins of omission or commission in the news room or by radio speakers in discussions, etc., and the House has generously and quickly recognised that broadcasting is being operated as a national service.

On the occasion of the annual Estimate, however, we welcome a full discussion on every aspect of broadcasting. I would, at the same time, hope that even on this occasion Deputies would not tell me that "Dinjoe" is better or worse than Joe Lynch or that the "Balladmakers" is the best or the worst programme on Radio Éireann. It would be more effective to tell that to the director in a letter or on a postcard.

Under the approved arrangements by which a sum equal to the licence and sponsored programme fees, together with a smaller sum for other minor adjustments, is devoted to the ordinary operations of broadcasting the sum provided this year in sub-head A of the Vote is £505,800. Normally, only £10,000 of the cost of equipment would be carried on this sub-head, the balance being provided by subsidy in sub-head B. This year, however, it is proposed to purchase equipment to the cost of £44,940 instead of the usual £10,000 out of the A sub-head, thus reducing the subsidy provision which would otherwise have to be made in sub-head B. The undertaking to devote an extra £34,940 this year for equipment leaves the sum available for day-to-day running fairly tight.

Expenses of broadcasting have gone up sharply and inevitably during the past few years. The House recognised generously last year that there has been a great improvement in the general programme content of the Radio Éireann transmission but it is desirable to bring briefly to the notice of Deputies the broad headings which call for considerable increased expenditure apart from the straight question of higher fees for more and better artistes. Since the reorganisation in 1953 the hours of broadcasting have been increased by 11 a week, that is, an expansion in broadcasting time of about 20 per cent. It can easily be appreciated, therefore, that an increase in time by one-fifth had to involve heavy additional expenditure. Comhairle Radio Éireann and the director had to strengthen the orchestras, including a long needed addition to the light orchestra which, as listeners know, plays day in day out music of the most varied kind— classical music, ceilidhe music, variety music, music with the Radio Éireann singers and music with soloists.

The news room staff was increased to deal particularly with bulletins in Irish and to bring the scope and vitality of the news in the national language up to that in English. That has, I think, now been achieved even to the extent of providing a daily topical talk in Irish. There has also been a wide expansion in the local news service both in Irish and in English. On the engineering side the longer hours have obviously made it necessary to engage additional highly-skilled staff—both engineers and technicians.

Apart from the hours there is one aspect of broadcasting in which a gradual change in practice has made it essential to provide considerable additional resources both in engineering and programme personnel and equipment. I refer to recording. Nowadays, recording technique—especially on tape —is so good that Radio Éireann, like all other stations, can pre-record many people and things that it could never get if it could only broadcast them "live."

There is a general impression that recorded programmes are inexpensive for the station. That is not so and, in fact, it takes about three times the number of hours to produce a tape recording programme as a "live" one and it makes more demands on the technical staff. Three figures will illustrate the vast increase that has taken place in recording work in Radio Éireann. In the years prior to 1945 the average annual number of hours of station recording was about 100. In 1952, however, it had reached 6,000 hours and in 1954 there was a total of almost 11,000 hours of recording in Radio Éireann.

I have given the House a general idea of the developments which have inevitably led to considerably increased expenditure in broadcasting, but I should say that the money expended still on broadcasting in this country is considerably less than what is expended in other comparable countries in Europe so far as we have information on the subject.

I am glad to say that the licence numbers are still increasing steadily and this will enable the broadcasting service again in the current year to pay for most of the equipment required out of sub-head A. Deputies will have seen from sub-head B in the Estimate Book that the subsidy provision for equipment is only a little more than it was in 1954-55. One would expect that with over 430,000 licences as compared with a total of about 650,000 households in the country the rate of progress in new licences would by now be slowing up. That is not so. For the past ten years there has been a steady normal increase of the order of 20,000 licences a year and we are, in fact, estimating for an increase of that order in the present year.

We believe that the problem of the unlicensed set is gradually being brought under control but that it still exists. In a special drive in 1948 the huge number of 70,000 people were discovered without licences. In a similar drive in 1952 the number was 30,000. We believe the number to be now much smaller. We must, however, try to eradicate that unfair position under which some people are paying for the radio entertainment of others and those who still have sets without licences should take warning that the Post Office inspectors must follow them up in the near future. They would be well advised to anticipate that by taking out licences now.

As far as the programme improvements are concerned it is scarcely necessary to outline them to the House or to listeners because, unlike the work of most other State Departments which is, so to speak, done behind closed doors, there is a glare of publicity about broadcasting which makes good or bad work immediately apparent to everybody with a turn of the knob. I hope the House and licence-holders who are, in that way, as well aware as I am of what Radio Éireann is doing for their entertainment and education will agree that the improvements mentioned here last year are being continued and developed.

The broadcasting authorities have made special efforts to provide more attractive variety programmes which is a task of the utmost difficulty for most broadcasting stations. The more serious types of programmes have not, at the same time, been neglected, and series such as the Thomas Davis lectures have been continued as well as dramatic productions of the best types.

I have referred to the developments effected in the news service in Irish. For the better production of programmes of traditional music and folklore an additional full-time officer has been appointed with expert qualifications.

I should like to mention specially the series of programmes for children which has been broadcast since the opening of the station was brought back from 5.30 to 5 o'clock. These are not addressed to schools, which are not open at that time, but they offer a valuable adjunct to school work by providing entertainment and instruction in Irish and English with a sound national character. They could profitably be listened to by adults as well as by children.

I have no further progress to report in regard to the provision of a headquarters building for broadcasting but considerable improvements have been or are being carried out in the existing accommodation.

A scheme of reconstruction work is about to begin in the Phoenix Hall from which the orchestral concerts and many other musical programmes are broadcast. We hope that the new broadcasting studios in course of erection in Cork in the new School of Music building will be ready for occupation before the end of the financial year.

I have some trepidation about mentioning Cork in connection with broadcasting because I know that before this Estimate is through the House I shall be hearing a renewed demand from the Deputies from Cork, united as one man, for the provision of a Radio Eireann Orchestra in Cork City. I may as well, therefore, anticipate their demands and explain the broadcasting side of the picture. The upkeep of the orchestras that we have already is a heavy task for a small country, although I know I shall be told that some small countries do more in that direction than we do. The symphony orchestra throws a particularly heavy burden on the broadcasting service of a small country such as ours, because Radio Éireann could really do with the part-time services of a symphony orchestra, if one were available outside Radio Éireann. There is no such orchestra in the country, however, and broadcasting has, therefore, to carry the cost of a full-time orchestra.

By maintaining an orchestra of this kind, Radio Éireann is in fact providing the country with a national orchestra, which, of course, does valuable work for the dissemination of good music, but it is work which is not exclusively broadcasting work in the strict sense. Cork benefits from the broadcasts of this orchestra as much as any other part of the country, except Dublin. Because the orchestra has to have a headquarters somewhere, Dublin undoubtedly derives particular benefit from this orchestra inasmuch as the citizens of Dublin and visitors to the city can be present at the live performances. We try to give Cork and other parts of Ireland opportunities of hearing the orchestra. These visits cost money to Radio Éireann as well as to the local organisers and may also be said to be outside the real functions of a broadcasting organisation, which discharges its duty when, in the matter of orchestral music, the orchestra is put out over the air.

Radio Éireann has also a light orchestra which, although not as expensive as the symphony orchestra, is still a relatively costly affair. It has been suggested that this orchestra should be transferred holus-bolus to Cork. I want to show that that is impossible. The light orchestra is one of the props of the broadcasting service. It contributes a great deal of music on its own to the programmes of Radio Éireann and performs in conjunction with the Radio Éireann Singers and other vocalists and variety artistes in a multiplicity of shows that can only effectively be organised in Dublin. The light orchestra could not be taken out of Dublin without detriment to the whole structure of the Radio Éireann programmes. Apart from that, it would not be a job to my liking to uproot a whole combination of people who have their houses and families in Dublin and transfer them elsewhere en bloc.

If a third orchestra is to be provided, a question immediately arises as to its functions and as to where the money is to come from. Radio Éireann has limited finances, limited time on the air, and some urgent needs that it will take a good deal of money to satisfy. Music is already filling a large part of the transmissions and it is not easy to see how room can be found for any more, without encroaching on other features for which there is often a greater public demand. A new orchestra in Cork financed by Radio Eireann would have to justify itself in terms of regular broadcast programmes.

This, I can see, would create a problem for Radio Éireann. It would create another problem which is bound to have repercussions in Cork in that most of the players for this extra combination would have to be imported. I am not opposed to Cork having an orchestra. I want to make that very clear. Like my predecessor, I believe that with the progress of broadcasting, especially when we reach the point of having a second programme, this will be a natural development. Meanwhile an important step is being taken in Cork in the provision of the new studios. We shall have a programme staff there, who can tap the local resources of Cork and the South, and provide live and recorded broadcasting of a miscellaneous character, in a way that was not hitherto possible.

I would not be averse, if the money could be found, to an arrangement whereby Radio Éireann and the Cork vocational authorities would jointly finance and benefit from the presence in the city of a number of players of distinction. Between the school of music and the broadcasting studios, musical activities could grow in Cork and, as local material became available and Radio Éireann's own programme possibilities expanded, the enlargement of this group could be undertaken more rapidly.

I may mention here that since I have prepared this statement I have had a development in the form of the presentation of a petition from the citizens of Cork, presented through the medium of their Deputies and the Lord Mayor, Deputy McGrath. I have read the grounds to be put forward by this petition and I may say that they have opened up new possibilities. There are certain proposals contained in it which are well worthy of consideration and I will bring the matter before the Government for their close as possible consideration before I reply to Deputy McGrath.

The new 100 kw. transmitter at Athlone was put into regular operation on the 17th June. While the old transmitter, which was probably the oldest of its kind in Europe, was still operating faithfully and sending out a good signal it is hoped that the more up-to-date installation will give a signal of more clarity within the service area.

It is appropriate to mention here the question of interference which is giving many people serious concern. I should first refer to local interference, that is, interference caused by electrical apparatus of various kinds in the local areas. We have a staff continuously investigating the causes of such interference on the spot and fitting suppressors where requested but much can be done locally by wireless dealers and owners of electrical apparatus by arranging between them to suppress offending equipment. We are hoping to be able to arrange for a conference of all interests concerned in this question of local interference with a view to getting new electrical apparatus suppressed against interference before it is sold.

I should say, however, that a great deal of the trouble in reception is at present being caused by interference from foreign stations. It must be admitted freely that the position about interference between stations in Europe is most unsatisfactory and unfortunately there is no ready-made solution for it. The number of wavelengths in the medium-wave band cannot be increased and it cannot be expected that broadcasting services in any country will close down any of their stations to improve the situation for some other country. This matter has been seriously exercising the minds of broadcasting engineers during recent years and after considerable experimentation the use of V.H.F. broadcasting transmitters is being looked upon as at least a partial solution for the congestion in the medium-wave bands. The German radio depends mainly on V.H.F. transmissions and the B.B.C. recently inaugurated a V.H.F. service to improve reception in Britain and proposes to extend the number of such transmitters in the period immediately ahead.

We have areas of poor reception in this country, particularly in places such as Wexford, which is the nearest point to the continental transmitters, West Cork, Kerry and perhaps some parts of the West and North-West of Ireland also. We propose to make some investigation as to whether the use of V.H.F. transmitters would be a solution for poor reception in such areas, but the investigation will take a long time and even if V.H.F. is considered to offer a good solution for the trouble its introduction would be costly. The scheme would mean the provision of a number of transmitters situated in various parts of the country and connected by land-line to supplement in the areas of poor reception the existing medium-wave stations. It would also involve listeners who wished to get the V.H.F. transmissions in the purchase of an adapter for their existing sets at a cost of some pounds or in the purchase of a new set which would receive V.H.F. as well as medium and short-wave transmissions.

I shall only say a brief word about television. I have had an opportunity of speaking with representatives of the European Broadcasting Union which met in Dublin this year and the general plaint by the representatives of the smaller countries who have television or are about to embark on it is that the cost is a nightmare to them. The proximity of these countries to one another is pressing television on them but, at the same time, exchanges of programmes are easier than in a country separated from Europe by many miles of sea. Happily, our people here have the common sense not to press for the introduction of television because they have an understanding of its difficult problems and I think it may be taken as fairly certain that it will not be introduced until such time as many of its present technical and financial problems have, at least, been eased.

People need not hesitate to purchase sound broadcasting sets. They need only look to Britain with its nationwide television service where they will see that the sound broadcasting service is still being developed to the utmost even by the introduction of V.H.F. broadcasting to which I have referred already.

I have left to the last what is perhaps the most important matter in broadcasting because I have little to say about it at this stage. It is the subject of the future status of Radio Éireann. As the House knows, the comhairle in charge of Radio Éireann was established in January, 1953, for a period of two years. They were appointed as direct servants of the Minister and did not get the legal powers for the operation of broadcasting which are possessed by broadcasting corporations elsewhere. The period of office of the comhairle expired on the 31st December last but they have been good enough to agree to remain in office until the Government gets an adequate opportunity of examining the statutory position of broadcasting. Examination of the matter is going on at present. The existing organisation is working well but there are considerations in favour of giving it a legal basis. This is not the time to go into the matter because it has not yet been fully considered. If the Government proposes to make any change in the statutory position of broadcasting the matter, of course, will come before the House with legislative proposals.

Before I sit down I wish to thank the comhairle, director and all the officials of the broadcasting station for their work during the year. I have not been in day-to-day contact with them because of the policy both myself and my predecessor have adopted of keeping out of the day-to-day working of the station. However, even as a listener I am in a position to know that good work is being done and, of course, I am acquainted with anything of real importance that happens in regard to policy. I am satisfied that Radio Eireann is being run in the efficient and imaginative manner so necessary for a service like broadcasting.

I wish, in the first instance, to say how delighted I am that the present Minister finds that the reorganised administration of Radio Éireann continues to accomplish a great deal and that the Comhairle and the directors and other officers continue to improve the programme. As everyone knows, Radio Éireann has to cater for a multitude of tastes and to compete with foreign broadcasting organisations of immensely greater resources. It is obvious from hearing the programmes that the director is doing his best to combine the need for interesting those who like light music and who like serious discussions and serious music with the need for including all the various elements of taste as far as possible. However, until there is a second and alternative programme it will be impossible for him to satisfy everybody.

I was very glad to read from the reports of the Listener Research Inquiry that Radio Éireann is the most popular station in this country and that the proportion of our people who listen to the more serious and cultural parts of the programme is not unsatisfactory. It compares very well with the proportion who listen to similar programmes from broadcasting systems in other countries. Could the Minister tell us whether he would be able to extend the length of the programme still further in the near future, whether for example the programme could be longer on Saturdays, particularly in the winter months?

I should like also to congratulate the director, through the Minister, for the improvement in the sponsored programmes. The sponsored programmes still are, naturally, disliked by people who have a rooted objection to American music, but it is obvious that there is a great deal more variety in the kind of programmes that are being sponsored in the whole of the period from 1 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. There is more light music, more opera, more light classical music and there are more Irish programmes in the sponsored portion of the programme, which indicates a great improvement over the days back in the 'forties when it was possible to hear an almost continuous surge of Tinpan Alley music. I hope the Minister will encourage the director to be as stiff as he can in insisting on variety in the sponsored programmes and in the upward cultural direction. I am absolutely certain that the charges for sponsored programmes are extremely reasonable and that, bearing that in mind, the sponsors can afford to try experiments in new types of programmes to the country's advantage.

I have also noticed that the increase in the variety of Irish songs sung and tunes played has continued. Some years ago if all the recorded Irish music available was played in Radio Éireann it would last, I think, only for one half-hour a week without repetition. Now there are more arrangements of Irish music, but I still think there is a vast amount to do. I would like to ask the Minister whether a special section yet exists in Radio Éireann for the popular arranging of Irish music? Irish songs and melodies have been played and sung in three different ways. They are being recorded, played and sung in the purely traditional manner, which is of great value to the country. There are also pleasant but more modern arrangements for voice, for combinations of instruments, for light music and symphony music, which are more tuneful to the contemporary ear, and more pleasant to the young people for whom something has to be provided as an alternative to the tremendous wash of Anglo-American music that comes their way.

Then there is the third method of arranging music, of arranging Irish tunes and songs, which is simply to swing them. I am not concerned with the third method, but I am concerned with the first and second. The Folklore Commission have, of course, recorded purely from the historical point of view, hundreds and hundreds of traditional airs and songs and I understand that the music department of Radio Éireann have searched through the records collected by Mr. Delargy and Mr. O'Sullivan and that they have been arranging some of these less well-known Irish songs and melodies. It seems to me, however, that there is still a vast amount to do.

In that connection I would like to speak of the Radio Éireann choir. This choir is very pleasant in many ways and their renderings of folk music of different countries are really delightful to hear, but I do not know yet whether the choir of Radio Éireann understands yet how to present Irish songs in a way which, so to speak, relates to the traditional manner of singing and at the same time is tuneful to the modern ear. I am not quite sure whether the right kind of arrangements are being prepared and I would like to ask the Minister whether he has enough staff in Radio Éireann to do this work. Radio Éireann, as the director remarked in one of his first public speeches, has to do far more in this country than a purely professional broadcasting organisation. It has to do work for Irish culture that may not be immediately related to broadcasting and although I am well aware the amount that can be done with the funds available is limited, I still feel a great deal more needs to be done if we are to preserve the huge corpus of Irish music we have.

The variety of Irish songs sung by our people is extremely limited and when songs are sung in English the Galway Bay type of song appears to predominate, whereas in fact as the Minister knows, there is a vast amount of material which has never been arranged for the modern ear and which can be arranged in such a way that it could be preserved. To give an example of another country, one would imagine that the English people with their vast industrial civilisation had almost irretrievably lost the great body of traditional music and song which they had. But the B.B.C. were able to revive a great many of the traditional dances purely by presenting them well and although the dances changed in character and were not danced in the same way as previously, nevertheless there has been in England, with its very different conditions from here, a great revival in English traditional music. The position here is that a great deal will have to be done if we are to preserve all these very beautiful melodies.

We are rather disappointed too that in respect of the arrangements made by the director for debates in which Deputies on all sides of the House would participate have not taken place. I think he should persevere in that matter because I think it would be an excellent thing both for the members of the House and for the country. I think myself that broadcasting is going to grow as a medium of political declamation. The number of debates so far arranged has been disappointing. I would also like to ask the Minister whether the director intends to go on with another portion of the scheme involving political broadcasts—namely stated broadcasts in the period from October to March. It was agreed between all the Parties that there would first of all be election broadcasts during general elections and that in years when there was no general election there would be a certain number of stated broadcasts at reasonable intervals during the winter months. May I accordingly ask the Minister if the broadcasts of that nature have been arranged for this autumn?

The Minister has stated that nothing further is being done about the provision of a proper radio building. I am aware that in the period of the last Government the actual proposals for such a building never reached the Government because the general election took place. As the Minister well knows the position of Radio Éireann in the G.P.O. is that it is occupying space that could be more economically used by the telephone accountancy section or by other sections of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It is, I think, the most antiquated radio building in Europe at the present time and in my view it would, in the long run, be more economical to have a proper radio building on a site acquired by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for such a building. That project should be planned now and put into operation in stages.

I understand such a thing is possible, that once having prepared the site it is possible to construct a radio building by stages. It need not cost too much in any one year because it could be planned in successive stages. I understand that initial plans have been prepared showing development by gradual stages. I would like to ask the Minister to press forward for a radio building because the provision of such a building is inevitable under modern circumstances. Broadcasting has come to stay and if television follows Radio Éireann will have to take part either directly or indirectly in television programmes and as the administration in connection with television is similar to that for sound broadcasting there would be an ultimate economy were a broadcasting building provided.

I was always hoping that Radio Éireann could have its own radio journal but I was unable to pursue the matter beyond a certain point. I wonder if the Minister has had any greater success. The Minister referred to the possibility of incorporating Radio Éireann. It would seem to me that the present organisation has been so successful that there is nothing to stop the Minister taking the further stage of incorporating Radio Éireann in the same manner as other such organisations abroad. We have always been afraid in this country that, because of conflicts over the civil war, if the broadcasting organisation were made an independent body there would be political difference of one kind or another. But the comhairle has operated successfully since the beginning of 1953 and there has been no complaints of partiality of any kind. Accordingly, it would seem an excellent thing if the Minister would proceed to make legal what is in fact strictly illegal. As the Minister knows, as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs he is immediately and absolutely responsible for every single thing Radio Éireann does, whereas if Radio Éireann were incorporated he delegates his responsibility by Act of Parliament but retains his responsibility for certain important matters in connection with the operation of the service.

The Minister knows that if he incorporates Radio Éireann as an independent organisation, he can exercise reserved powers for any period, he can exercise reserved powers on such matters as the character and the scope of sponsored programmes and as regards preventing the excessive commercialisation of the service. He can also exercise reserved powers on questions of capital expenditure and on the amount of the licence fee and in regard to matters of international law. He can reserve powers, if he so desires, in regard to the proportion and the character of the Irish language portions of the programme. The Minister could have reserved power to ensure political impartiality. My own view is that some of those reserved powers may be necessary but others will certainly not, but I do think it is time the position of the comhairle was recognised in the way I suggest.

Another reason is a humanitarian one. While I believe part of the staff of Radio Éireann should be fluid in character and that the Minister should encourage the director to give short term contracts to various contributors, I think the Minister should also ensure that Radio Éireann would be prevented from becoming as civil service as the B.B.C. has become where the organisation has grown top-heavy in spite of all its freedom. Like other broadcasting organisations Radio Éireann has a number of workers who could continue within the organisation because they have the type of talent which could be perpetuated. There is no need to get them to go and refresh themselves at another source and then return or perhaps not to come back any more. There are a number of such people in Radio Éireann who have no chance of getting a pension as the Minister well knows. That is another of the reasons why the incorporation of Radio Éireann is desirable.

The Minister knows well that unestablished civil servants cannot receive pensions. In similar organisations abroad they can take advantage of some kind of elasticity in regard to pensions. They can get pensions in an unusual form. A form of insurance policy is taken out on their behalf and if, after a few years, they leave the organisation they can take it away as a partly paid up policy and can go to some other organisation where the policy can continue and where the broadcasting corporation contributes to the policy. I am not saying that, if Radio Eireann was incorporated, the pensions would be of a kind that necessarily encourage people to remain, willy nilly, within the organisation. They should, at least, cover the devoted officers of Radio Eireann who have given years and years of excellent service and who have contributed to the growing improvement of the programme; it should at least cover their needs.

I do not think the Minister can defer the question very much longer. He will either have to provide pensions for certain classes of officers in Radio Eireann who normally will never get them, or he will have to incorporate the organisation.

The Minister referred very pessimistically to the possibilities of television in this country. Of course, as the Minister knows, the new television station in Belfast can already be seen and heard very successfully over a very large stretch of the country. There will be one more purely English and partly American medium of propaganda, a medium of culture, spreading through the country, of a very pervasive and very important kind. Television is probably the most potent source of influence that exists in the world to-day, even more potent than the foreign Press, foreign cinema or the foreign radio, and the Minister will have to face up to the fact that the new station will spread its picture throughout quite a large part of the Twenty-Six Counties and that he cannot indefinitely defer the coming of television but, of course, he may decide that there will have to be some other way of dealing with it than the way that was adopted in the case of Radio Eireann.

I believe that television offers one of the few media for general education, so much required in this country, in the cultural field and in the technical field of agriculture and that the Minister can have an excuse for establishing television if he makes use of it in the way, for example, the British would have liked to make use of it if they had not already started a huge organisation for educational purposes using sound broadcast. As I understand, they find the cost of transferring from sound to television the whole of their educational programmes is excessive at the moment but I am perfectly certain that, if they had known that television would come, they would have begun their educational programme through the medium of television. Television can be seen by as many as 300 people at a time, using a suitable screen, and it could help local organisations of a cultural and agricultural character throughout the country. Whatever steps the Minister takes in regard to television, he should examine its use for educational purposes.

I would like to conclude by saying a few words about the now almost world famous problem of the Cork orchestra. I should, first of all, congratulate the people of Cork because I do not think there has ever been so much propaganda for a particular innovation in Radio Eireann as there has been for the Cork orchestra and I must admit that, from the very outset, in so far as I could, I committed Radio Eireann to establish a Cork orchestra. The position was that when the request was made to me the comhairle had been established. At the early stages I said to the comhairle that I would like to have an immediate and direct interest in the development of the serious music side of Radio Eireann because I felt there was a great deal to be done and at that time I did tell Professor Fleischman in Cork that I would hope to establish a third and small little orchestra for Cork and that it would work and operate in conjunction with the new studio there.

Probably the principal reason for my decision lay not only in the enthusiasm of the people of Cork for music, not only because they have shown that they are interested in serious music, not only because of the tremendous success of the Tóstal celebrations in Cork City for the last two years, particularly this year, but in the fact that, in the development of any serious aspect of culture, to keep the whole of that development in Dublin City seems to me to be, in the long run, suicidal, discourages people in the country, discourages provincial groups of people interested in the development of culture. There must be some effort made by the Government, if they can, if it is conceivably possible, to establish a unit of some development for culture somewhere else besides Dublin and Cork, with its traditional interest in music, with its many amateur musicians and singers, seems to me to be fully deserving of the privilege of having a section of the Radio Eireann Orchestra.

I am absolutely aware that the Minister, sooner or later, will have to face an almost impossible problem in regard to the development of serious music in Radio Eireann because of the cost and, sooner or later, the Taoiseach of the day, through the Arts Council, will have to help Radio Eireann because, as the Minister has said, Radio Eireann is primarily a broadcasting organisation and upon it devolves the special duties of encouraging culture, of offering programmes in the Irish language to perhaps a greater degree than any other medium of publicity in this country, of encouraging all sorts of good ideas for the development of the nation. The whole of the programme is not only a professional entertainment programme, it is a programme devoted to the resurrection of a nation. Of course, such a programme must be interlarded with popular items and items that attract the ordinary individual. Nevertheless, it is quite obvious that Radio Eireann has been in that position for some time.

The development of serious music provides a very heavy charge for Radio Eireann and the cost of the symphony orchestra and the other orchestras is already heavy compared with the total expenditure of Radio Eireann and the total amount of time during which those orchestras play but I still feel that, having regard to the increase in the revenue coming from the increased number of licences, the Minister should do his best to encourage interest in serious music and in the symphony orchestra.

There was, during the last Government's period of office, the most ridiculous, contemptible, propaganda about the introduction of foreign musicians into the symphony orchestra, propaganda that was utterly ludicrous under the circumstances. You only have to look at the names of the people who form the B.B.C. orchestras to see that, although they may be English citizens, they originally came from Germany and Italy. You only have to examine the nationality of half the symphony orchestras of Europe, where they have had a longer musical tradition than we had and the opportunity to develop music that we never had here due to our history, to find that these orchestras are composed of large numbers of foreigners.

We eventually got over the difficulty of providing a first-class orchestra in this country but the difficulty still remains of attracting the people of this country to study instruments up to concert standard. By concert standard I mean the standard of, shall we say, the original orchestra of the B.B.C. I do not mean the standard of the New York Symphony Orchestra or the Philharmonic Orchestra in London. I mean the standard of the original orchestra of the B.B.C. or the standard of an orchestra in some small German town. We still have the job of encouraging people to study instruments in this country.

Part of my reason for suggesting the formation of a Cork orchestra was that it would enable the Minister of the day to encourage the director of the day to perpetuate the promise I gave that it was inconceivable that anyone who learned an instrument of any kind used in a symphony orchestra would not be able to get a job in one of the three orchestras of Radio Eireann in the next ten years. In other words, I think it is desirable to have enough orchestras in this country to be able to promise that all the vacancies would be filled so that you could get even 20 or 30 young Irish men and women who would accept that promise and see the three orchestras and proceed with advanced courses of study and eventually you would have a higher proportion of our own people in the three orchestras than to-day. It is a big thing to ask the Minister to make that promise. I made it and I made it in good faith. I am certain it would be possible for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or for the Taoiseach, whoever is responsible in the future, either through the Arts Council or the Department of Posts and Telegraphs or Radio Eireann, to have that promise honoured.

As the Minister knows—again with the object of finding more Irish players—the form of audition for persons seeking a position in the symphony orchestra was changed from what was a very stiff Civil Service procedure to something more flexible. The position now is that every single July, I think it is, vacancies are advertised for the orchestras. When applicants have been examined they are not simply told that they cannot be given a position or that they can: they are told that if they study still further they may be suitable for a position. Some of them have been taken on as juniors on the basis of half time in the symphony orchestra. As these auditions take place every year for every instrument, we have a fair idea of what talent is likely to come forward. As the Minister knows, the results of the auditions—again, based on a very reasonable standard—have been extremely disappointing for nearly all the wind instruments and the 'cello. There appear to be only a certain number of viola and violin players studying music in this country who are liable in the near future to be suitable for the three orchestras. That is the position, unfortunately. It is also true that the Feis Ceoil ceased presenting prizes for many of the wind instrument competitions because not enough people were able to compete adequately for these competitions.

There is a desperate dearth of Irish wind instrument players of all kinds. We need not be ashamed of that. There was a time when the Germans provided the wind instrument players of most of the European orchestras. Between 1912 and 1920 the English orchestras were full of German wind instrument players. We are just a little behind most other countries in that respect but we can catch up on them. The Minister and the Director of Radio Éireann have a responsibility to encourage a serious interest in music and that can only be done by encouraging people to learn music to an advanced standard so that they can join the Radio Éireann Orchestras. It is a unique position. I know that the Arts Council made available some scholarships to the Royal Irish Academy of Music and, partly through my efforts and the efforts of other people, grants to that academy were increased—grants which, I think, had not changed in 30 years. The Municipal School of Music is making efforts to increase the amount of instruction for players of advanced standards but an immense amount has yet to be done. I myself feel it is quite possible that the scholarships are not valuable enough yet to warrant people deferring taking a job in the ordinary way of life and studying wind instruments, and so forth, to concert standard. It may be that the value of the scholarships offered to the Royal Irish Academy of Music and the emoluments offered to the Municipal School of Music will have to be still further increased.

Again, in order to try and get something done, the Minister for Education of the last Government was going to have an investigation into the general problem of instruction at advanced level for musical instruments here between the two schools of music in order to see what needed to be done and possibly in the hope of founding a conservatoire of music here. This is probably the only country in Europe without a proper conservatoire of music for advanced standards. The Minister for Defence was just beginning to examine ways and means of improving conditions under which Army Band players could rehearse and also of improving their conditions. So far as I know, the Army School of Music has still no proper rehearsal rooms for members of the bands who wish so to improve their playing as to enable them to join a symphony orchestra at a later date. As the Minister may know, the standard required for wind instrument players for any army band is not the same and is lower than that required for a symphony orchestra. However, in a number of countries the best wind instrument players from bands join symphony orchestras by taking courses of study.

The facilities for study are insufficient in the Army School of Music to enable persons who join the Army Band to reach a stage adequate to qualify them to join an orchestra. The last Minister for Defence was inaugurating an examination of that position with a view to finding more players. I wanted to indicate all the steps taken to encourage Irishmen and Irish women to take concert standard instruction in all the instruments. One of my objectives was to have enough orchestras here for all the vacancies which would be available. I feel that if there were three orchestras—one of 70, one of 24 and one of seven—they would provide a corpus of players from which vacancies could be filled as they arose and that they would encourage more students to come forward for advanced standard instruction in Cork City and elsewhere. Therefore, I should like to commend to the Minister that he should examine the petition presented to him by the people of Cork because I do not think any aspect of national culture should be confined to the City of Dublin. I think Radio Éireann have responsibility in that regard.

I did not mean to speak so long on this subject but it is a complex one. I hope the Minister will ask the Taoiseach for help in connection with the Arts Council. The Arts Council have very limited funds at their disposal. I would say the Arts Council, during the former Government's term of office, in making available some small and modest scholarships to the Royal Irish Academy of Music, were doing all they could. I know the Taoiseach is interested in the work of the Arts Council. I believe the time will come when the propaganda work in connection with the symphony orchestra will require contributions from the Arts Council on such a scale that the Arts Council will have to have more to give. Money is difficult to find. Taxation is heavy. We are still very far behind in the world in the matter of serious music and also in the arrangement and development of Irish melodies so that they will be perpetuated and so that the variety will grow greater in those two very important matters in relation to the work of Radio Éireann.

Apart altogether from the references made by the last speaker to a movement in Cork for the decentralisation of some of Radio Éireann's musical activity, I think the speech we have just heard from Deputy Childers is a particularly good one and I pay that tribute to him for his fine conception of what we should do about music in this country. There are many people in this House who are very glad to support him in moving and pressing along the lines of the speech he has just made.

It would be very difficult to criticise this Estimate and I think it would be most unfair to do so because of the remarkable progress that has been made by Radio Éireann in the past few years. The people generally are now, I think, quite satisfied with the output from Radio Éireann. It is a good station to switch on to. The only trouble is that you cannot switch on to it at all times of the day and that it is a shortcoming which I feel we shall have to overcome soon. Listeners should be able to switch on to the national radio station at any time of the day. It is very desirable that they should get into the habit of using that station only, because when we tend to study the programmes of foreign stations and the B.B.C. we tend to forget our own service at home, and now that that service is improving so much, the more people who use it, the more people will continue to use it, so that it is very important that there should be no afternoon break.

In connection with good music—and those who have spoken seem to be very interested in maintaining the programme proportion of good music—the development of the long-playing record might solve some of the technical orchestral details. About once a month, the B.B.C. broadcasts at least one very good concert of international standard, presided over by conductors of international repute. I do not know if it has been thought of by the broadcasting authorities here, but I should like to see these concerts relayed by our radio service. Reception from English stations is not always very satisfactory, but the music is generally very fine, and if we could have access to that music from the Irish station, with the good reception it is now providing, particularly in Cork—and I must congratulate the Minister's predecessor on the great improvement in technical quality of the output of the Cork station—it would be a very desirable development.

There is a better quality noticeable in the commercial broadcasts, although I still shudder when I hear some of the things broadcast by these people who advertise. I wonder have they ever seriously considered that possibly programmes of good music might sell as many tins, cans or bottles of the product they advertise as the kind of music they broadcast. I think also that the details of the musical programmes to be broadcast might be published in the daily programmes printed in the newspapers. It is important because we all have likes and dislikes in regard to music, and one has no way of knowing what the particular music is going to be, until one switches on and possibly then find that it is not worth waiting to hear.

Electrical interference is, I think, getting worse in the cities and the Minister should get after it. There is a service supposedly designed to hunt down these people who maintain apparatus which leads to this disturbance, but it does not seem to work very well. My reception is sometimes intolerably bad because of this, I wonder if any attempt has been made to get the electrical trade, or the people who sell this apparatus, to cooperate with the broadcasting authorities in making sure that every article of this kind installed domestically is properly earthed, so that this interference will not take place.

With regard to the orchestra in Cork, the Minister's very favourable reaction to the petition from Cork in his opening speech will prevent me from dealing with the matter in any other than a very gentle and amiable way, because I am satisfied that the Minister's intention and objective are very welcome. The petition which the Minister received this evening from the City of Cork is rather an important one. It was signed by many thousands of people, representing people in every walk of political life and in different social strata. The demand has come from every quarter of the city. It represents something unusual and none of us can resist it as public representatives, and none of us will want to resist it as people interested in culture. It is nationally and culturally very important that this development takes place.

If we are ever to create a musical public in this country and if children are to have teachers available locally, so that they may be taught how to play properly and be able at a later stage to man our orchestras, we must get away from centralisation here in this city. Centralisation in this regard will prove to be a very barren thing, and our musical future will be enormously advanced if, as in other countries, people have the opportunity, not alone of hearing good music, but of seeing it played, of having the players living in their districts and available for teaching and for lending themselves to other combinations of music, large or small.

The atmosphere of music will have to be diversified. One must be able to see the players and be in the centre of musical activity. The children of the country who are musically inclined will then feel that there is something of a future in their progressive musical education. At present, if children express a desire to learn music as a career by which they propose to live later on we would probably arrange to have their heads examined, because there is absolutely no future in this country for a musician. The only person who can give that future by moving in the right direction is the Minister.

In Australia, the broadcasting service established radio orchestras in five or six of the principal cities 20 years ago, and the growth of public interest in music was enormous. The result is that Australian nationals have now become world renowned figures as musical performers. I do not believe that is impossible here. Our people have always been very musical, but they are denied the initial facilities for producing good performers. I know what the Minister's difficulties in this regard are, and I think the main thing is to get the principle accepted that a combination, no matter how small, should be stationed outside Dublin.

Very expensively fitted out studios have been built for Radio Éireann in Cork and the only human quantity that is to be attached to them in the planned future are an announcer and an assistant announcer. That sounds a bit cockeyed to me, in view of the fine studios, and I suggest that we should have a musical combination stationed there. There are too many cultural amenities in Leinster being supported by the rest of the country. I go very frequently into the National Gallery some mornings when I have an hour to spare when the House is not sitting, and very frequently I am the only citizen of the State examining the magnificent pictures on show there. I feel that if that gallery were somewhere else it would provide much better education and much more enjoyment for the people who help to pay for it.

I do not want to talk any further about the demand for an orchestra from Cork. I think the Minister will find that this petition will help him to make the case to the Government as strong as possible and I welcome his attitude as disclosed in the few words he spoke apart from the typewritten speech which gave us a report of his Department's work. All the Cork Deputies will be glad to go back and report that our musical outlook is, as we hope, very much brighter.

We are all agreed that Radio Éireann has developed as a very big institution. The revenue from wireless licences in 1954 was £374,000. Over the past five years there has been an increase of 148,000 licences, an average of 30,000 a year, amounting to £21,000. Some years ago, when requests were made for extensions to Cork, it was mentioned that the revenue had reached saturation point. The figures show that that is not the case and that development is continuing gradually but very substantially. Our issue of licences at present is only 14.7 per cent. of the population, as against 17 per cent. in the Six NorthEastern Counties of Ireland, 24 per cent. in Scotland, 25 per cent. in Wales and 27 per cent. in England.

The expending of practically all the money in the metropolis is not a good development. A survey was made of a three months' programme in Radio Éireann. There were 183 solo performers—159 of these were metropolitans, 12 were foreigners and 12 were Irish men and women from outside the metropolis. The whole contribution, with the exception of 6 per cent., was from the City of Dublin. I do not say that some of these people did not come to Dublin from other centres, just as they would in any other walk of life. Still, these figures must naturally make an impression on anyone who is interested in the development of music and culture and its encouragement over the whole country.

The Cork station was closed down in 1930. We are asking that it be reopened by siting an orchestra there. We asked first for the light orchestra, we asked for an orchestra of some kind that would not be too expensive on Radio Éireann or on the State; and it was pointed out to us—and in all reason we will have to accept it—that it would upset matters here now if the Radio Éireann light orchestra were transferred. However, I see no reason why we could not have a variety orchestra or a chamber orchestra situated in Cork, composed of 20 or 21 members or whatever the appropriate number of musicians may be.

It certainly has been of great advantage to have the symphony orchestra on circuit throughout the country.

No matter how you may hear from Radio Éireann or from broadcasting programmes of any kind—in music, no matter how beautiful, there is nothing that can compare with the personal touch and contact, seeing an orchestra actually in operation. The fact that they came there personally had a greater effect than would have been the case if they had been listened to on wireless sets for many years. The whole set-up was so magnificent that it made a wonderful impression on the "House Full" audiences in various populous centres. I hope that will continue. If the Minister concedes an orchestra to Cork—as I think he will, on reflection—I hope that it will go on circuit personally also in the southern cities. It would gain strength from the best musicians in the southern cities, who could be incorporated on the occasion of such visits. Such local musicians of talent could be incorporated for the occasion, after a certain number of broadcasts, and that would help to expand the musical culture of the south generally.

We are behind other countries in the number of our symphony orchestras. We are far behind even countries in Europe that are not the size of the Province of Munster and which have far more orchestras in various centres than we have. Cork being the second city in the State, with a population of 130,000 in the city and immediate suburbs, has an unanswerable case, not by reason of population so much as by the interest—as has been said by Deputy Childers and others—that has been shown in the city generally in good music, not only now but over the years.

To pass from that for a while, let me say that I appreciate very much the improvement in the quality and the diversity of the programmes in our own language now being put over Radio Éireann. For a number of years it used to be a matter of criticism: now it is rapidly approaching the stage for congratulation. I hope the development that is taking place will continue and that it will be of immense cultural advantage to our country and a great stimulus in the revival of our national tongue.

The sponsored programmes also have improved. There is room for further improvement, but we cannot expect miracles. We cannot expect things to be done in a day or a year, as we know these programmes have to be booked far ahead and that one cannot make cancellations. No doubt, as time goes by and as things develop, they can influence the programmes and their quality and their nature, and in so doing give general satisfaction to those who subscribe to the broadcasting system through the licence fees they pay every year. A development of that kind such as has been going on will give general satisfaction to the people.

Professor Fleischmann has been a wonderful advantage to us in Cork. He is professor in the university and he is doing his best to develop musical talent, not only through the orchestra but through the ballet and, in a combination of both, arousing the musical and cultural taste of the city. Before the radio orchestra comes to Cork he arranges for the senior students of the school to have a day with that orchestra. He explains to them in Irish and in English what is being played and thus gives them an idea what to expect and the quality of the music for their entertainment.

The Cork School of Music is doing its best also to encourage new talent. I must agree with Deputy Childers that the general complaint is about the quality of those who are available for the playing of wind instruments, that that is the branch of orchestral music that has to be developed. No matter what we might say about foreign musicians we have to make a beginning somewhere, and if we have not the standards or somebody to show the standards and teach up to concert pitch there is no use in scraping around ourselves on a basis which will lead us nowhere. We must have a certain amount of training and development in the country.

I will finish by quoting the last paragraph of Professor Fleischmann's lecture, if I may so call it, to the citizens of Cork when we were looking for this orchestra quite recently. He said:—

"We have a very ancient claim to such an orchestra. There is a manuscript called the psalter of Cashel written in the 9th century which contains a reference to Eimhir, son of the Milesian king Miledh. Eimhir and his brother Eireamon divided the country between them, Eimhir taking the south and Eireamon the north. And the psalter tells us that ‘the sweetness of string music in the south, in the south, is found. It shall be so till the end of time with the illustrious race of Eimhir.' Let us warn the Minister that he is running a grave risk if he attempts to go against this ancient prophecy. Let him know that the illustrious race of Eimhir has risen to ensure that the prophecy will be fulfilled, and that there will be an almighty clamour throughout the land if he does not divert some of that ‘sweetness of string music' from the Liffey to the Lee."

I thank the Minister for his approach to the petition and for the work he is doing as Minister—work which he is so generously and sympathetically continuing.

The Minister in his opening statement anticipated a barrage of appeals from Cork Deputies on the question of this radio orchestra for Cork City. I will not play the same tune too long, but representing Cork a Deputy is expected to make this case to the Minister if only for that reason. I feel that most of the Cork Deputies, irrespective altogether of the duty they feel they owe their constituents—and there is a great deal of unanimity amongst the electors of Cork that this orchestra should be provided—irrespective of that duty I believe each representative from Cork feels that there is the greatest merit in the claim that is being put forward.

The Wireless Broadcasting Estimate is usually one of the mildest debates in this House.

You would know by the attendance in the House.

Very often there are fewer Deputies on what appear to be more important occasions. Nevertheless, I think the experience over a number of years is that a very constructive approach has been made in the course of these debates by all Deputies. The reason is obvious, that there is no single institution in the State that is more in the people's homes than wireless broadcasting. The Minister referred to the number of wireless licences that have been taken out in the past few years, and it indicates a very high percentage of receiving sets in the homes of the citizens. That being so, what strikes me is the comparatively small figure of £278,740, just over £250,000, it takes to provide that service for the people. We are a country of limited resources but, nevertheless, even in relation to our limited resources the amount of service given to the people, and particularly to the people who need some form of entertainment most, is out of all proportion to this comparatively small sum. Therefore, I would not be surprised if that sum had to be considerably increased. The point I am driving at is this. The Minister made the case from the broadcasting point of view in reference to this radio orchestra for Cork that finances were the problem, but I feel that to bring this sum up to £300,000 would probably make the difference from the financial point of view between a radio orchestra for Cork and none at all.

The Minister was candid enough to admit that the symphony orchestra being located in Dublin did give Dublin residents and visitors to Dublin an advantage over the rest of the country. That advantage is very apparent when one considers the benefits that a live orchestra can give to a community. In my own particular case I must admit that some years ago I was not very interested in what might be described as heavy music, but for one reason or another I had occasion to go to listen to some of those orchestras which visited Cork—perhaps because I was a Dáil Deputy and was expected to be seen there. Strangely enough I got interested in it and I found a much greater pleasure in sitting and listening to an orchestra than ever I did in listening to it over the air. For that reason the presence of an orchestra in any city must, of necessity, stimulate a greater degree of interest in that type of music.

Secondly, the Dublin Grand Opera group is in a particularly advantageous position inasmuch as Radio Eireann usually associates with that group in the putting on of operas. The orchestra used in these presentations consist of or is largely augmented by the Radio Eireann Symphony Orchestra. That is a benefit which is being denied opera companies in other parts of the country. There are opera companies which endeavour to put on operas of high standard and to bring artistes of high standard from abroad to take part in their productions. In Cork we are largely confined to the remaining few old professional musicians whom there are, augmented by some outstanding young students and by members of the No. 2 Army Band. The time will come when those old professional musicians will pass out and the source, the fountain of material with which these orchestras will be made up, will be drying up. Ultimately the time will come when the position which now is a happy one in Cork that a greater interest is being displayed in music of a good nature will again recede for want of professional musicians.

One of the arguments advanced by Deputy Childers which impressed me very much when I heard him speaking on this demand for an orchestra in Cork was the limited facilities there are outside of Dublin for learning music on those instruments which are not very well known. He said that these limited resources are such that in time to come and as soon as the old professionals will have passed on there will be few, if any, people in the country capable of performing on these instruments.

From time to time we hear criticisms in the House of the employment in Radio Eireann of foreign musicians. In so far as we desire to get the best musicians we can for our symphony orchestra, and in so far as people are entitled to that standard, I think the policy of Radio Eireann is correct in getting musicians from abroad, but that policy should surely be only a temporary one. The policy should envisage the stage when native musicians can take the place of these foreign musicians and be able to perform on the various instruments at least as well, if not better than, those who, of necessity, we have to import at the present time.

In the case of any industry in this country, the policy is that if there is not a technician of sufficient training and standard to do a particular job, to bring in one from abroad, whether from England or Germany, and at the same time to train our own young technicians to be able, at some future date, to take the place of the imported technicians. That should be the policy in regard to musicians as well, apart altogether from the fact that by doing so we are going to stimulate an interest in music, we will be providing a means of livelihood for a number, even though it may be small, of our citizens. From that point of view, I think it is desirable that we should have as many orchestras of this nature as the country can possibly support.

I think it must be admitted that the Minister himself is sympathetic to the point of view put forward by the people of Cork. There is no doubt but that his predecessor also was and expressed that view when he was Minister. He repeated it here to-night. I think, however, it is only too obvious that the people who control broadcasting have the mentality that their responsibility is to provide broadcasting material: in other words, to provide entertainment over the air and there their responsibility ends. If that mentality prevails, I think we can throw up our hats here and now at the request of the people of Cork, and, indeed of the entire South for this orchestra.

I do not want to repeat what has already been said, but I should like to remind the Minister that their demand is there and to warn him that it will be persisted in. As I said at the outset, if money is the only consideration, I do not think anyone would cavil at an increase of, say, £20,000, in an Estimate for £250,000 to provide a service for the people which forms so much a part of their daily lives, particularly of those in the rural areas.

The Minister paid tribute to Deputies on all sides of the House for their forbearance in criticising the quality and the subject of broadcasts throughout the year. I think it is only fair that the House should do so, since the Minister has adopted the same policy as that of his predecessor in trying to interfere as little as possible, and even not at all, with the arrangements for broadcasts or with the subject matter of these broadcasts. During the year there was one question put down by a Deputy which implied some victimisation of supporters of the G.A.A. in relation to the number of broadcasts which have been given from Radio Éireann of matches and other sporting events. I would like, as a keen G.A.A. supporter, to tell the Minister that personally I had no criticism whatever to make, and I think the Minister's answer satisfied everybody who may have had apprehensions about that matter. As far as I know, and as far as I can ascertain, the question was not sponsored by any responsible source, and if some Deputy saw fit to criticise, even by implication and by putting down a question, the number of hours devoted by Radio Éireann to the broadcast of G.A.A. matches, I do not think that any criticism which he had to make, or any implication there was in the question against Radio Éireann, was shared by the general body of G.A.A. supporters.

There is one small matter that I think the Minister or his Department should clear up at an early date. Throughout the country prosecutions have been brought from time to time in respect of persons holding wireless receiving apparatus, or parts of such apparatus, and district justices, who usually administer the law in respect of these charges, have been giving conflicting decisions. People who are fortunate enough to be able to afford a radio on their car do not know at the present moment, as far as I can judge, having regard to the conflicting decisions given by the district justices, whether or not they should have a licence in respect of these car radios if they already have a radio licence for their homes.

Likewise, even though I think it has been clearly stated on one or two occasions, if a person has two receiving sets in a house, whether he is liable to take out a licence for both. I think the position is that one licence is sufficient in such a case, but nevertheless there is an element of doubt in the minds of ordinary people. They do not, as a rule, read the decisions of district justices on this matter of car radios. There is certainly a great deal of confusion in the minds of the public about it which should be cleared up.

I do not intend to delay the House any longer beyond expressing the hope that the day will be speedily reached when we can have an alternative programme in this country and when Radio Éireann can compare with the radio stations in the countries all over Europe. I think that, having regard to the results of the census, or whatever the radio people call it, the time is fast approaching when Radio Éireann, by reason of the excellence of its own programmes, will be able to command in this country the bulk of the attention of the listening public for its own programmes.

The difficulty in regard to interference from stations abroad is something which perhaps the Minister has only a very limited power to grapple with, but it is a very serious matter in parts of the country, particularly along the southern and south-eastern coastlines, which are so near some powerful radio stations throughout Europe. There are parts of West Cork where there is no such interference from abroad, and nevertheless Radio Éireann is not well received there. I know that the Minister made a special effort to find out in what areas the difficulty of hearing broadcasts was prevalent. I can assure him that anywhere in the part of the country from Macroom West, where there are hills and valleys—and there is no part of that country where there are not hills and valleys—serious difficulty is experienced in hearing broadcasts from Radio Éireann. Sometimes it is quite impossible to hear them.

It appears that the debate this evening was monopolised by the Cork Deputies who wanted everything for Cork but I should like to put before the Minister what I want for the constituency I represent. We want to hear the news from Radio Éireann and there are very many complaints in the County Wexford regarding the reception at times. Indeed, you may switch off your set and tune in to Luxembourg or some other station because you can hear nothing but buzzing and noise from Radio Éireann. That is the complaint all over my constituency.

Deputies MacCarthy and Lynch referred to the great increase in the number of wireless licences. It is very easy to account for that because, on account of rural electrification, the people have to get an all mains set instead of a battery set. The greater portion of these sets are got on the hire-purchase system and every radio dealer will give you a radio set if you just give in your name.

The question of musicians was also raised. I think it is a shame that we should have Irish musicians unemployed while foreign musicians are employed and given higher wages. I think that is wrong. After all, we ought to have as good talent in Ireland as there is in any other country. Irishmen have proved their ability in other spheres. Listening to the debate on this same Estimate some years ago, I heard great criticism from the Fianna Fáil Benches about the employment of foreign musicians. Their attitude has changed because to-night they played a different tune. They are in favour of employing foreign musicians. They tell you that you must go to Germany or Italy for musicians. I think we have as good musicians in Ireland.

I do not think anyone said that.

It is a reflection.

The Deputy should express clearly what was said by the speakers and not misrepresent it.

I am expressing——

You said you have to go to Germany.

Deputy Lynch referred to Germany and so did Deputy MacCarthy. You have to go to Germany for musicians for Radio Éireann. I think that is all wrong. We have our own people unemployed and they have to leave the country. We were told that the musicians should learn the young people. What did that mean?

I am not at all in favour of some of the announcers. Sometimes they are women on the radio and it is very difficult to understand them. Representations were made to me by very important people in the constituency I represent to bring this matter before the Minister. I said I would do that when I got the chance.

I think we are too much taken up with looking for things for Cork or Dublin in the House. Should no consideration be given to the other parts of the country? Cork wants an airport and radio station. They want everything. It is the same so far as Dublin is concerned, and then we talk about decentralisation. Why not establish stations in the rural districts outside Cork and Dublin? Dublin and Cork are congested enough already.

I should like the Minister to make some investigation in regard to the noises and buzzing of wireless sets in our constituency. As I said, we have to switch off and tune in to some other station because we cannot hear anything from Radio Éireann. I do not know what is the cause of it, but I am sure that the Minister has received complaints from people before this. I should like the Minister to do something to ensure that the people in the County Wexford will get good reception.

Sílim go bhfuil focal molta tuillte ag lucht stiúrtha an Radio faoin bhfeabhas mór atá tagtha ar an meid den obair a déantar trí Ghaeilge. Ba chúis áthais dom chuid de na cláracha a chlos. Cuir i gcás, na cinn a tháinig ón nGaeltacht féin agus a raibh cainteoirí ó dhúchais páirteach iontu ag chur síos ar a saol mar iascairí agus feirmeoirí agus iad ag innsint scéalta faoi chúrsaí na háite agus faoi chúrsaí an lae agus ag chur in iúl dúinn go bhfuil fíor-chainteoirí ó dhúchais le fáil agus go bhféadfaimis blas cheart na Gaeilge a chlos. Sílim go dtabharfaidh sé misneach do na cainteoirí ó dhúchais, na hiascairí agus na daoine a mhaireas ar na sléibhte, i measc na bportach nó cois trá sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht a rá go bhféadfaidis dul ar an radio tar éis roinnt beag ullmhúcháin nó a mhalairt agus clár a chur ar fáil dúinn.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an chuid is mó den mholadh ag dul do na daoine a rinne na cláracha d'ullmhú agus gur dóibh siúd, fé mar thuiteas amach i gcás gach rud a bhaineas leis na cláracha, bidís i nGaeilge nó i mBéarla, atá an chuid is mó den mholadh ag dul. Má tá fear ann ar féidir leis clár maith a chur le chéile agus más fear maith é, ba mhaith an rud é dá bhféadfaí a rá leis na bhfear sin: "Tá an oiread sin ionntaoibhe againn asat go bhfuilimid sásta cead a thabhairt duit clár leath-uaire a chloig nó clár uaire a chloig a sholáthar dúinn i nGaeilge." Céim mhór ar aghaidh a bheadh ansin, b'fhéidir.

B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh an lá freisin nuair a craolfar na cluichí móra faoi Chumann Lúth-Chleas Gaedheal agus go mbeidh an chuid is mó, mura mbeidh an clár ar fad, as Gaeilge agus go gcloisfimid ó Pháirc an Chróchaigh an teanga bhinn-Ghaeilge agus corrfhonn Gaelach ón tslua bailithe san áit sin fé mar chloisimid ó Bhóthar Lansdowne, nuair a bhíos muintir na Breataine Bige i láthair. Níl na daoine sin i dtaobh leis an mBéarla. Is féidir leo na hamhráin a bhaineas lena dtír féin a chanadh agus iad a chanadh go breá binn blasta freisin. Tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh an lá nuair a bheas an scéal amhlaidh againn anseo.

Is dóigh liom gur mór an rud é, freisin, cuidiú le cúrsaí drámaíochta agus cúrsaí ceoil. Fé mar adúirt an Teachta Childers, agus aontaoím ar fad leis, ní amháin go bhfuil dualgas ar an Radio craobhscaoileadh do na daoine ach tá dualgas fé leith orthu é dhéanamh i nGaeilge. Ní mór dúinn cúrsaí ceoil a chur ar aon-chaighdeán leis an gcaighdeán atá i ngach tír eile ina bhfuil an ceol claiseacach ag dul ar aghaidh. Is de bhrí go mbíonn na milliúin daoine ag éisteacht le Beethoven, Mozart agus Bach a bhfuil an caighdeán ardaithe chomh mór sin. Muna dtugtar seans do na daoine dea-cheol a chlos, conas is féidir leo spéis a bheith acu i gceol maith? Muna gcuirtear an dea-rud ar fáil do na daoine, ní fhéadfá a bheith ag súil go gcuirfidís mórán suime ann. Bhí trá ann i mBaile Átha Cliath nuair a dhéanaidís carráistí na n-amhránaithe móra a tharraingt nuair a thagaidis anseo, ach tá a mhalairt de scéal ann anois. Is go Sráid Graftuin nó áiteacha eile a théas na slóite anois chun failtiú roimh dhaoine de shaghas eile ar fad, daoine a ndéanfar dearmad orthu i cheann cupla seachtain nó cupla mí go dtí go dtagann duine éigin eile. Beidh clú agus cáil ar dhaoine mar John McCormack agus ar dhaoine eile mar é sa tír seo agus i dtíortha eile ar feadh i bhfad.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil dualgas ar Radio Éireann, ar an Aire agus ar an Rialtas cuidiú leis na nGaeilge i ngach slí is féidir agus cuidiú freisin leis an gceol agus aon ábhar eile a bhaineas le cultúr ar dtíre. Bhí áthas orm a chlos go rabthas ag tabhairt aire faoi leith do chúrsaí béaloidis agus ceoil na ndaoine fé mar cantar agus a scinntear é do réir an tsean-nóis agus go mbíonn cláracha ar an radio a bhaineas leis na sean-amhráin. Is cóir do Radio Éireann cláracha ceoil Gaelach a bheith acu go minic agus seans a thabhairt do na daoine óga. Ba chóir dóibh, freisin, féachaint chuige go mbeadh lucht na Mainistreach agus lucht an Gheata le clos níos minicí ar an Radio ionas go bhféadfadh an Stát, trí mheán Radio Éireann, cabhrú leis an ndrámaíocht. Nuair a thagas cuairteoirí a bhfuil clú na drámaíochta orthu go Baile Átha Cliath dob fhiú dhúinn tairbhe a bhaint as ar son na drámaíochta anseo. Tá a fhios agam nach féidir linn gach rud a dhéanamh.

Maidir le ceol, is dócha go mba chóir do Radio Eireann agus don Roinn cuidiú níos mó leis an bhFeis Ceoil agus úsáid a bhaint as daoine a bheadh i ndan léachtaí nó siamsaí a thabhairt. Ba cheart, freisin, do Radio Eireann caoi a thabhairt do lucht buaite chomórtais dul ar an radio. Tá a fhios agam go mb'fhéidir nach mbíonn sé sáthach maith uaireanta chun dul ar an radio. Níl a fhios agam cé acu slí is fearr chun cabhrú leis na ceoltóirí óga, scoláireachtaí a bhronnadh orthu nó "audition" a thabhairt dóibh i dtreo is go bhféadfaidís airgead a thuilleamh ar an radio. Daoine iad siúd a rinne dian-shaothar ag ullmhú ar an bpianó nó ar an bheidhlín agus dá mbeadh clár speisialta ann dóibh, tar éis éirí leo sa bhFeis Ceoil, thabharfadh sé misneach dóibh dul ar aghaidh. Muna féidir linn scoláireachtaí a thabhairt dóibh chun dul thar sáile le feabhas a chur orthu féin, ba cheart dúinn gach rud is féidir linn a dhéanamh doibh anseo. Fé mar adúirt an Teachta Childers, dá mbéadh "Conservatoire" ceart anseo, b'fhéidir go mbeadh sé indéanta, fé mar a shíl mé go minic, dlúbhaint a bheith idir an Ard-Acadamh agus an radio. Níl Ard-Acadamh againn ach tá Acadaimh eile agus tá Scoil Cheoil na Cathrach againn, agus iarraim ar an Aire gach rud is féidir leis a dhéanamh chun cabhrú leis na daoine óga a bhfuil féith an cheoil iontu. B'fhéidir nach bhféadfaidís dul thar lear ná maireachtaint ar an gceol anseo ach an fhad is atá siad ag dul ar aghaidh agus go bhfuil caighdeán reasúnta maith acu, sílim, más fiú linn cláracha amhránaíochta do thosnaitheoirí a bheith againn, gur fiú an rud céanna bheith againn i gcóir na gceoltóirí óga, fiú amháin chun seans a thabhairt do cheathrar, cúigear nó seisear teacht le chéile agus sraith ceoil a chraoladh.

Tá an gá úd ann a ndearna an Teachta Childers tagairt dó, nach bhfuil na daoine óga ag teacht chugainn, go mór mhór i gcás an bheidhlín agus an cello. Caithfimid rud éigin a dhéanamh maidir leis sin agus d'fhéadfaimis cuidiú leis an bhFeis Ceoil. Cad ina thaobh nach bhféadfadh Radio Eireann páirt níos mó a ghlacadh sa bhFeis Ceoil. Ní ceart gan cabhair éigin a thabhairt do na daoine atá ag obair leo le caogadh bliain anuas chun an Fheis a chur ar aghaidh. Cabhraíonn an Rialtas le Oireachtas na Gaeilge maidir leis an dteanga, agus is rud tábhachtach é sin, ach nach bhfuil an Fheis Ceoil an-tábhachtach? Is í an Fhéile Cheoil is mó atá againn agus is an-deacair do na daoine atá ag obair ar a son í a choimeád beo, agus í a chur ar aghaidh. Muna bhfaghann siad cabhair ón Radio nó ón Aire cé uaidh a bfaihghidh siad é? Is dóigh liom gur chóir seans a thabhairt do na ceoltoirí óga agus do chóracha scoile, go mbeadh fhios acu, má éiríonn leo, má fhaghann siad an chéad, an dara nó an triú áit sna comórtais, go gcuirfí fios orthu dul ar an radio.

There is special responsibility, to which Deputy Childers has called attention, upon Radio Éireann from the point of view, not alone of providing a broadcasting service, but of doing everything it possibly can for the Irish language through that medium and also of keeping our traditional music well in the forefront of these programmes and maintaining and improving the cultural level. One of the ways in which I think that can be done is by giving more assistance to the Feis Ceoil and I have been suggesting that since the Government assists a very laudable organisation, Oireachtas na Gaeilge, more should be done to make the Feis Ceoil an even greater national festival. I think it is the oldest existing musical festival we have. It has been carried on on a voluntary basis up to the present and if the public in Dublin do not support the Feis Ceoil as they should, we who have some responsibility in these matters and the Minister, who, I am sure, would be glad to give all the help he can, and the authorities of Radio Éireann should consider whether in the absence of some better machinery for encouraging young musicians, the Radio Éireann organisation should not come in more directly and take more part in the Feis Ceoil. They would then have that amount of official assistance and support that would make the festival a great musical event, and we would not have to be imitating what is being done in other capitals. We have our own musical festival here if we only developed it properly.

I was glad to hear that more is being done and that officers have been appointed to look after the folklore and traditional music. The radio authorities are also to be congratulated on the great improvement in the Irish programmes which are more lively, brighter and more interesting. What a great pleasure it is to hear some of these programmes coming from Gaeltacht areas where native speakers tell us about their lives, their occupations, events of the locality, the news of the day and anything else which they think might be of interest. I believe the success of these programmes which have improved so much in recent years, not alone in Irish but in English, is due to the staff work, the organisation, the arrangement and the preparation which must be done in advance to get the high level of achievement and to secure the success that has been obtained. I hope that even greater success and achievement will be attained in the future.

With regard to cultural and educational standards, while it is difficult for the radio to take the place of the teacher in the primary school or in the secondary school—it is certainly a difficult matter to try to arrange a school programme that will fit in with the work of the school and that might take the place of or be compared with the work which the teacher does personally in his class—nevertheless, in the sphere of what we might call adult education, continuation or popular education, a great deal can be accomplished. From the musical point of view Radio Eireann has done very good work in recording and broadcasting, as occasion required—and I hope they will do it much more frequently than they have been doing it—the excellent performances we have heard by the Italian and German opera companies which visited Dublin and gave such satisfying and such splendid performances. Deputy O'Leary might be glad to hear that they were subsidised to a certain extent, I understand, by the Governments of their countries to come to Dublin and to give us the pleasure of listening to them.

I suggested that younger players such as those who win competitions at the Feis Ceóil ought to be given more opportunities and more encouragement. Whether that should be done by way of scholarships or by paying them some fees for performances at Radio Éireann, I do not know, but until we get better machinery it is absolutely necessary that these young musicians should get more encouragement. They should be encouraged, for example, to give concerts of chamber music. If our friends in Cork do not succeed in getting the full symphony orchestra in the near future—I hope they will get it later on—surely they could, in the meantime, as Deputy MacCarthy has suggested, secure a light, a variety or a chamber orchestra and have concerts of a character similar to those which the Royal Dublin Society or those which our Army Band and the Radio Symphony Orchestra itself have given to the children on the one hand and, on the other hand, to adult audiences when they visited Cork, Limerick and the other centres. Choirs also ought to get more encouragement since we have to depend on the work of the schools to a great extent in regard to improving our musical standards. Where you have a good school choir it is a great encouragement, as in the case of the individual performers, if they get an opportunity to be heard on Radio Éireann.

I am sure the Minister has had his attention called on many occasions to the difficulty Irish listeners in Britain have in getting reception. Difficult as it is to hear Radio Éireann in certain parts of our own country it is, of course, much more difficult in Britain and now that we seem to have a much larger Irish listening population in Britain than many of us thought, I wonder whether something more could not be done. If we cannot make our radio station available to every prospective listener and if we are not in a position to enable prospective listeners to hear our programmes, could we not arrange to get in touch with some of those people and give them an opportunity when they visit Ireland of going on the radio and telling us something about their lives over there and about their problems? If we hear at first hand what their experiences are and what their views may be that would, I think, be valuable.

With regard to the point that Radio Éireann is to a certain extent a branch of our adult education administration, I think it is a very welcome thing that speakers of university calibre have been enabled through the medium of the Thomas Davis lectures to speak on scientific, archaelogical and architectural subjects as well as historical topics. I think it is equally welcome that the general public has had an opportunity of hearing those people. I only wish that the Museum and the National Gallery could be associated in some way with our radio pro grammes so that we might have talks about them. Deputy A. Barry referred to the fact that our people do not seem to be fully aware of the existence of these institutions. At any rate they do not visit the National Gallery and the National Museum to the extent to which these institutions should be availed of; we have some exquisite treasures in both. If attention were called by a series of talks on the radio to the contents of these important national institutions more interest might be taken in them.

In connection with debates, there is no doubt that a great number of the public would be intensely interested in debates but it would be essential that such debates should be removed from acute political or other controversy. If, for instance, one were to start a debate at the moment in relation to the question of corporal punishment in the primary schools and if one were to receive several thousands of postcards on that matter one would, of course, have to check as to whether such postcards were or were not bona fide. It is a matter, too, upon which the Minister for Education might have very strong views.

While giving the public, and particularly the younger element, the programmes and the features that they wish to have I hope that the policy which has been pressed here this evening of trying to raise the standard generally and improve the programmes in Irish as well as in English, both the sponsored and the ordinary programmes, will continue and I hope that something more will be done to cater for what may be described as the regional or local interests and that the hopes of the people of Cork, for example, or any other area—be it the Wexford Festival or the Dublin Feis Ceoil—will not be in vain.

Finally, in relation to news, I am one of those who believe that the news should be presented as objectively as possible. When we are dealing with happenings in other countries we have to be very careful that the agency reports which are quoted are unbiassed and bona fide. I am afraid that is not always the case. There is a natural temptation—it is a very understandable one—for news editors to try to make the news as interesting, lively and up to date as possible —“hot news” in other words; there is very often the difficulty of verifying such news particularly when it deals with events outside this country and where one has to depend on these agencies one may find very shortly afterwards that the reports were not, let us say, altogether accurate.

There are just two criticisms I want to make. One is that in these talks people have complained to me that there is a habit on the part of those participating to laugh inordinately at their own jokes. Now there is no objection to that provided they have their laugh out before they resume the talk. A good deal of the discussion is lost because of this inordinate laughter.

With regard to Irish speakers, I am not one of those who criticise the Irish I hear over the radio but there are two matters which require attention: one is that the speaker should be distinct in his pronounciation and, secondly, his method of speech should not be marbhánta.

Generally speaking, most of the remarks have been laudatory in relation to the work done by Radio Éireann. I am very grateful for the suggestions that have been made. I am particularly grateful to Deputy Derrig for the suggestions he has made. I would like to say that all the suggestions made will be passed on immediately to the Director of Broadcasting for his attention.

With regard to reception by Irish people living in Britain the matter is not so easy. A good part of that area is practically outside the range of our station. Occasionally people can get Radio Eireann but reception is not altogether satisfactory because it is, as I say, outside the really effective range of the medium wave station. People there get Radio Éireann but reception is not altogether satisfactory because it is, as I say, outside the first-class range of a medium wave station. I am afraid we cannot do very and so forth, will not extend the range.

Deputy Lynch referred to a judgment given recently by a district justice in connection with radios in cars. Our advice is that radios in cars must be licensed. One licence will cover the set admittedly but the district justice recently seemed to say that no licence is necessary for a car radio. A case is being stated for the High Court in connection with that, but the Post Office ruling is that until there is some change we must continue to collect for radios in cars. We feel there is a liability. It is true that only one licence is required in a house in the occupation of one family even though there may be a number of different sets. In connection with flats, separate licences are necessary for each flat.

In my opening speech, I referred to the position in connection with a radio orchestra for Cork. Since then a petition has been presented to me by the Lord Mayor of Cork and the other Cork Deputies. New proposals have emanated. A new basis of negotiation has been opened up. I promise to put this matter now before the Government and, provided we can raise the wind—after all, money is the main factor—we will endeavour to resolve the outstanding difficulties between ourselves and Cork.

Finally, I can only say that every effort will continue to be made within the limited funds at our disposal and the limited accommodation to serve the people as well and as truly as we possibly can in Radio Eireann. It was pleasant to hear the pæan of thanks from Deputies in all Parties this evening for our efforts and those of the Director of Radio Éireann and the Comhairle.

Vote put and agreed to.
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