Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Jul 1955

Vol. 152 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 60—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare (Resumed).

Mr. James Tully

There are two other points I would like to make before concluding. One is in connection with appeals from a decision of the Department of Social Welfare when debarring people who applied for social welfare benefits. At the present time the system is that they are allowed to appeal and are requested, if they so desire, to attend at an office of the Department of Social Welfare so that they can be heard. As a matter of fact, it very often happens that the office where those people are asked to attend is some place where it is almost impossible for anybody to reach except by car at the hour which is laid down for their attendance.

Let me give an example. Somebody in Oldcastle, County Meath, who appealed against the decision of the Department of Social Welfare, is required to attend at a social welfare office in Mullingar. There is no public service of any kind between Mullingar and Oldcastle. There is a train from Oldcastle in the morning to Drogheda. I can see no good reason why the Department cannot make arrangements so that people who wish to appear to give evidence, when they have submitted an appeal, would be facilitated to the extent that the appeal would be heard at some place where it would not be impossible for them to attend. These people are very often unemployed and they should not be required to travel to places where it would cost them a lot of money to travel.

With regard to the second matter, at the present time there is a regulation whereby somebody whose wife has died and leaves a family of small children can be paid 12/- per week on behalf of a daughter who is over 16 years of age who is minding the children. I am afraid that very many local officers of the Department of Social Welfare do not give that information to such people when they make an application. As a matter of fact, on one or two occasions not only has this information been denied to people but they have been told that there is no such regulation. I brought several cases to the notice of the Minister with the result that the people concerned were paid what they were entitled to be paid. A notice setting out what the people are entitled to get should be sent to the officers of the Department of Social Welfare and that notice should be made available to applicants when they sign on for benefit at any of the local offices.

Mr. MacBride

I do not propose at the end of this session to delay the House for long. I simply rose to make an appeal to the Minister for Social Welfare to take a special interest in the training of sightless people. I know the Department has already done a considerable amount of useful work in that direction. I would appeal to the Minister to see what way the existing training facilities for blind people could be employed. Quite apart from the normal sympathy one would have with people deprived of their sight, it should be borne in mind that these people are capable in every other respect of working and are anxious to have an opportunity to earn their own livelihood and serve the community generally. Many of them have been trained for various occupations and have proved extremely successful. My only purpose in rising, therefore, to-day was to ask the Minister to take this particular question under his wing particularly and to devote as much personal attention as he can to the problem. It occurred to me, too, that possibly the Minister could use his position and influence in the Government to ensure that whenever there are blind people who had been trained even as telephonists or as typists their services should be availed of by Government Departments generally. A number of them, I think, are already employed in different telephone exchanges and have proved quite successful. I feel that the Minister could render valuable service to these people who are already undergoing a tremendous disability in life by ensuring that whenever they are trained an opportunity would be made available to them either as telephonists or typists in Government Departments.

Mr. Davern

I am sorry that Deputies took advantage of the Estimate to make attacks on officials who are not able to reply. I, like everybody else with long experience, have many complaints, perhaps, but before making any charge against officials concerned I always try to find out whether it was their fault or not, and I am quite satisfied that 90 per cent. of the charges or allegations of undue delay either in presenting claims or in forwarding cheques are entirely due to the negligence of the insured people. It is quite true that all insured people have been educated in the past 20 years to a very considerable extent, but we have not come to the end of the road yet and we have insured people withholding their cards, withholding information as to where they worked and many other matters of that kind, with the result that their cards are not in order and there is a delay and the delay is 90 per cent. due to their own negligence. That is my long experience.

I am not going to condone in any way any charges against either the Department or the Minister or the agents with regard to these alleged delays. As I said, we have been educated quite a lot—and our insured people have been educated—but there are many steps of the road to be followed yet, and I say that in the case of one section of the community in particular, that is the people in casual employment, though their cards are franked for them in the period during which they are in receipt of unemployment assistance or national health benefit, there are other periods in which no such provision is made for them with the result that they are in arrears. I would like the Minister to consider seriously the reintroduction of the old arrears cards. There was no safer safeguard that I know of to ensure that insured people would not be without benefit or that they would not allow periods to go by when they would get into arrears, than the old arrears card that was issued every October or November. I think many of our people benefited extensively by them and I would ask the Minister to reintroduce them, if possible, or at least to consider the question, because I think it is well worth considering.

We have another section of the community, and that is the old spinsters who were never really in insurable employment, or perhaps, should I say, there was never any contract of service whereby they would be insurable. When they come to the age of 60, they are no longer of any use to their employers and if they have not a charitable relative the institution seems to be the only place for them. I would like the Minister to consider them in future legislation. I think they represent a section of the community that have been overlooked up to now. It is not a very large section. They have gone beyond the market age for marriageable purposes and many of them find it difficult, perhaps, to bring themselves down to draw home assistance or reliefs of that kind but if there was some other fund such as the National Health Insurance for them, I think it would be a very good thing.

Mr. James Tully

Start a lonely hearts' club for them.

Mr. Davern

We could try it and see how they would get on. Deputy Tully referred to the means test applying to workers in employment and again to people who transferred their farms under a valuation of £30 and it is not quite fair to say that they can transfer to anybody—it must be a son or daughter.

Mr. James Tully

I said that.

Mr. Davern

But the spirit behind that is very good. I could advance many arguments against it, too, but the spirit behind it is good and I do not think the Minister should ever alter it because we have had up to recent years the son of 40 who is still "a gossoon" and the daughter of 35 who is still "the little girl". We have got away from that stage and we do not want any return to it. I think there was an amendment to the old age pensions code back in 1932 and again, I think, in 1952. These did a good deal towards enticing old people to transfer their holdings to their sons at a time when they were of marriageable age and not keep them waiting for the period to come when they would qualify for the old age pension themselves.

As I said when speaking on the Budget, I would like to see the question of old age pensions which are now costing the country I think almost £10,000,000 divorced completely from politics and if we are ever able to do that in the lifetime of the present Dáil I think we shall have many valuable contributions here towards allaying the misery of many of our own people. I suggest that the Minister instead of doing away with the means test should add a further schedule to it that would be for, say, £26 for those with no means whatever, and I would increase the pensions substantially. I do not think any other section of the community would need any apology for that because the person who has to depend solely on an old age pension, whose means would not exceed £26, would deserve from the Government of the day and from everybody else the greatest consideration possible.

I know there are great difficulties about this. On one side of the road you have the prosperous farmer, and because he is prosperous, he is able to get his children married and he is able to pay the legal expenses to get his farm transferred. Being in good financial circumstances, naturally his sons are an attraction for many of the good-looking girls of the neighbourhood.

On the other side of the road you have perhaps a small farmer with seven or eight cows, and because he is not in good circumstances or has not been able to make a general family settlement, he cannot qualify for the pension, although there are four or five in the family and the financial position is anything but good. That man has not been able to make any provision for his family because of the small acreage he holds. You find cases of that sort all over, and if someone could find a remedy for them I am sure he would get a very good welcome from the Minister.

I seriously suggest to the Minister that he should consider the position of those people who have to depend entirely for their existence on the old age pension. They have no other income, either in cash or in kind, so that if the Minister were to increase their pensions, I think it would meet with the full approval of everyone in the country.

In regard to National Health Insurance, we have advanced many leagues, and I think that the provision we are making is as good as that made by any other country in the world, that is considering the means at our disposal. There are, however, a few little snags in connection with this service. People go out of insurance for no good reason that one can see or their employment may cease. Then they become ill and they continue to send in certificates, but these certificates will not qualify them for benefit unless they are able to resume work for a certain number of weeks. These cases, I admit, are very rare, but there should be some way found of remedying that situation. Lastly, we have had complaints in regard to the period within which a woman must notify her marriage with a view to obtaining benefit. I know of one case where the lady concerned got seriously ill. She was not able to notify the local agent of her marriage. Unfortunately, when she did go to do so she went on the wrong day as the agent was engaged in his office in the next town. That lady has been deprived of benefit despite the fact that she had a very serious illness and was in hospital for several months. I think that, where a bona fide case of that sort is put to the Minister, he ought to extend the period within which a married woman can claim her marriage allowance.

Mr. McQuillan

I propose, first of all, to say a few words about social services generally. I think that we can look forward to great things as far as the old age pensioner, the widow and all those in these categories are concerned, as a result of the fact that we have a member of the Labour Party now occupying the responsible position of Minister for Social Welfare. Under recent changes made by the present Government, the new old age pension amounts to 24/- per week. Great play has been made of this supposedly generous increase by the various Parties which comprise the present Government. I know, however, that the Labour Party, as a Party, are not satisfied, and cannot be satisfied, that the sum of 24/- per week is sufficient for that neglected section of our community.

I know that I cannot be challenged on that statement. If I can give proof here that members of the most conservative Party in this House, the Fine Gael Party, feel that the sum of 24/- a week is not sufficient, then I have no doubt whatever that the present Minister will have the staunch backing of the Fine Gael Party for any proposed further increase that he intends to make for the old age pensioners.

There is a Deputy in this House who is described as lecturer in economic theory. That is Deputy John O'Donovan. He is a man who has the ear of the Government. I understand that he is one of their key advisers in economic matters. On Tuesday last, Deputy O'Donovan gave a lecture at the summer school which was being held in U.C.D. In the course of his lecture to the students attending that summer course, he referred to the social services in Ireland, and he stated, according to the report which appeared in the Irish Times of Wednesday, 13th inst., that, “the social services were at a modest level and that the new old age pension of 24/- a week was just equal in purchasing power to 10/- per week before the war”.

That statement was made by one of the most responsible members of the present Government. We know that he belongs to a confessedly conservative Party. In view of that fact, surely, there will be no difficulty now in the progressive members of this Government ensuring that the progressive policy they have with regard to social services will be put into operation at the earliest possible opportunity. I will be looking forward with interest to the proceedings in the next 12 months in this regard, and I feel sure that we can depend on the present Minister doing whatever is possible for that section of our community—the old people, the widows and the orphans.

There is one other matter that I wish to refer to. I must say at the outset that I regret very much having to refer to it here, but, unfortunately, there is no other means at my disposal for exposing what I consider to be the very grave injustice that was perpetrated recently by the Department of Social Welfare. It was in connection with the appointment of an individual to the post of temporary local agent in the Roscommon area. Some time ago, rather than discuss the matter publicly in this House, I informed the Minister personally of the situation as I found it in connection with this appointment. The Minister at the time was non-committal but he agreed that I had been fair about it. I had warned him of the position as I knew it and I told him it was my intention to have the matter raised in this House.

Briefly, the position is this. Last October the then local agent retired in Roscommon and it became necessary to appoint somebody in his place. As far as I am personally concerned, the Minister and his Department know that I made no recommendation on behalf of any candidate. Although I am the public representative that is closest to the situation and I was approached by several people to make recommendations on their behalf, I refused to do so because my belief was that a fair decision would be made. However, I can assure the House that my eyes were opened when I saw what really did happen.

The former occupant of this post retired and on 1st October an official— I will not mention the names of any civil servants involved—from the Agency Section of the Department of Social Welfare called to a Mr. O'Doherty who is the local branch manager of the labour exchange. This official asked Mr. O'Doherty would he be prepared to take over the agency duties following the resignation of the former occupant of the post. Mr. O'Doherty intimated that he was willing to take over the duties of local agent in order to oblige and facilitate the Department of Social Welfare. As a matter of fact Mr. O'Doherty, who is an officer on the Reserve of our Army, volunteered to forego his annual training period for that purpose.

As a result of this invitation to accept the post Mr. O'Doherty applied on the 1st October, 1954, to be appointed. He received a communication from the establishment branch on the 20th of the same month in which he was informed that the Minister was prepared to offer him the appointment. The record of that is: establishment 121/54. The letter continued that if he was prepared to accept the appointment he should inform the Department of his decision. Mr. O'Doherty wrote back on the 21st October notifying the Department of his willingness to accept the post. Two days afterwards he received a letter acknowledging receipt of his acceptance of the post and informing him that the appointment would take effect as on and from the 25th October.

On the 27th October, two days after Mr. O'Doherty had received intimation from the Department in connection with his acceptance of the post, an advertisement appeared in the local provincial newspaper, the Roscommon Champion, stating:—

"A vacancy exists for a temporary local agent for the dispensary district, Roscommon, Athleague and Ballyleague. Applicants must be resident in the area and in a position to supply a suitable office in Roscommon."

Note that fact: "In a position to supply a suitable office in Roscommon."

"Applications received after the 11th December will not be entertained. Particulars of the duties and salary will be supplied on application to the Secretary, Department of Social Welfare."

Mr. O'Doherty, having seen that in the local newspaper, could not understand what had happened and, in order to safeguard his own position, on the 29th October he repeated his application of the 21st. In the second application he pointed out that due to the information given to him in a former letter of the Department he had gone to the expense of purchasing a small car to enable him to carry out his extra duties as a local agent. Nothing happened as far as the appointment was concerned until the 7th February, when Mr. O'Doherty received a letter from the Department notifying him that an interview for the post would be held in a certain hotel in Roscommon. The date of the interview would be the 14th February, 1955. He attended that interview, as did a number of others. The interview consisted of officers of the Department of Social Welfare.

Mr. O'Doherty is a man of 43 years of age and he was asked in the course of the interview did he not consider, at the age of 43, that it would be better if a younger man was appointed. I understand from Mr. O'Doherty that he was very emphatic in his statement that he felt that as an Army officer on the Reserve and as a temporary branch manager he was young enough, able enough and healthy enough to carry out the duties of local agent as well. I emphasise the necessity of taking note of the fact that he was asked in connection with his age whether it would be a disadvantage if he was appointed.

That is all that happened as far as Mr. O'Doherty was concerned. He was still carrying on the job which he had got used to and in which he had got experience. He heard nothing further and he still held the post until the 4th May. On that date he received this document purporting to come from the Department of Social Welfare. I will deal with the document first. When I saw this I could not believe for some time that a document like that would issue from the Department of Social Welfare. Generally in any document coming from a Department the address is on the right-hand side. In this document the address is typed on the left-hand side. I will read it. It is from the Department of Social Welfare, Establishment Branch and is addressed: Mr. H.D. O'Doherty, Branch Manager, Branch Employment Office, Roscommon:—

"I have to inform you that Mr. Joseph Galvin, Mount Talbot, Roscommon, has been appointed local agent to the vacancy at Roscommon and will assume duty on 9 Bealtaine, 1955. Your services on agency duties, therefore, will terminate on 7 Bealtaine, 1955, and it will be necessary for you to have records, files, etc., ready for transfer to Inspector ‘So-and-so' on 9 Bealtaine, 1955."

Now, he received that communication on 4th May, 1955, telling him that he must hand over all documents on 7th May, 1955. This was a temporary appointment; all these appointments are of a temporary nature but, in the letter appointing him to the post, certain matters were mentioned and one of them was:—

"This appointment, which is on a temporary basis, will— (1) be terminable on one week's notice in writing by either side to be given at any time without cause assigned."

Note the one week's notice! As far as this unfortunate man was concerned, he did not even get the courtesy of one week's notice. The letter which he received from the Department on 4th May is dated 3rd May and and he is told in that to hand over on 7th May, having held the post in a temporary capacity from the previous October and carried out his duties in an efficient and able manner. That is the courtesy he received—three days' notice.

That is only part of the picture. I want to make two cases on this. First of all I want to make the case in connection with this man, Mr. O'Doherty, who acted in a very able manner for a temporary period and then I want to make another case in connection with another applicant. There can be no objection, as far as the Department of Social Welfare is concerned, to combining the two offices of temporary branch manager and local agent. I have gone to the trouble of investigating the position in many exchanges. In the following areas the posts of local agent and branch manager are combined: Kenmare, Carlow, Kilrush, Cavan, Youghal, Bantry, Castletownbere, Athy, Portarlington, Thomastown, Rathdowney. These are only some of them. Evidently it was, or is becoming, departmental policy to combine, where possible, these two appointments in order to achieve greater efficiency.

Some people may say that one job is sufficient for any man. Let us remember that the appointment as branch manager was a temporary appointment and the total amount of remuneration paid to Mr. O'Doherty was the sum of £410. There was no other allowance of any description. Out of the £410 he had to provide an office and the necessary staff, and he had to be constantly on duty. Therefore, no one could say that he was overpaid if he was allowed to hold both appointments.

I regret having to raise this matter. I pointed out that one of the questions the interview board asked Mr. O'Doherty was: Did he not consider that at the age of 43 he was a little bit ripe, shall we say, for the post? I very much regret that politics entered into this appointment in no uncertain fashion. I have often in the past criticised appointments where I believed they were made on a political basis and I shall continue to do so irrespective of what Party my criticism may affect. As a result of that interview an individual was appointed who will be 60 years of age next November. His main qualification for the post was the fact that for the last seven to nine years he has been the leading organiser of the Fine Gael Party in the constituency. As an individual, I like him; I have nothing against him personally. I think he is an upright man, but I deplore the fact that his main qualification for this post was a purely political one and I want the Minister to-day to produce for us here the results of that interview board and the place that this individual got. I challenge the Minister to tell me he got first place.

I do not blame the Minister personally. I think that the Minister was, to put it very bluntly, codded by a little backroom section of the old Tory-Fine Gael Party in Roscommon town which pulled a fast one. It is a well-known fact that Mr. O'Doherty's father was the most prominent Fianna Fáil supporter in the town and this bunch of coconuts disliked him intensely. They waited many years for an opportunity to get a rap at him and, when they could not get a rap at him, they got it at his son—a man who never took any active part in politics, a man who was a member of the Defence Forces, first in the Volunteer Force from 1935 onwards and right through the emergency; he was released from service on 22nd June, 1946, and the reference from his commanding officer stated that he carried out his duties very satisfactorily, proving himself a reliable and hard-working officer of temperate habits: "His conduct throughout his service has been exemplary."

In case the Minister in referring to this matter might feel like saying that the successful applicant had more qualifications other than being merely an organiser for Fine Gael, let me hasten to say that the successful applicant was also a member of the Defence Forces, and a very good member of the Defence Forces. I want to know is there any policy in the Department of Social Welfare to enable a young man to get the chance of a livelihood in this country. I understood that Labour Party policy envisaged retirement, gratuities and pensions at the age of 65. I also understood that it was their policy that where there was an opportunity of providing a livelihood for a young man he should get first preference.

Mr. O'Leary

The Deputy said the job was a temporary one. There would be no pension.

Mr. James Tully

What is the job worth?

Mr. McQuillan

I will ask the House to forget about Mr. O'Doherty. I mention this case in order to show that he was, in my opinion, a man eminently suitable for the appointment and I believe that public opinion was that he could not be beaten in any interview board. As I said, a number of people were interviewed. It would be very interesting if we could get the results of that interview board and see the particular place each individual got at that board, because it is a very important thing to have in the public mind a feeling of confidence that an interview board means something and that it is just not a cover or a smoke-screen to be put up in order to go through the formalities. We find that the holding of this interview in Roscommon in connection with this appointment was purely a waste of time and so we find in the public mind the opinion that all these interviews are just a cover. That is the seriousness of matters of this kind.

There was another applicant for this job. If the people in this House felt that Mr. O'Doherty was not entitled to the appointment as local agent they had more applicants to choose from who had all the qualifications necessary to carry out the work. They had much more deserving applicants than the man appointed.

From time to time I have asked questions in this House as to Government policy in connection with the rehabilitation of people who were unfortunate enough to suffer from T.B. Some weeks ago I put down a question specially to the Minister for Health regarding the Government policy in connection with persons who suffered from T.B. and I asked what provision was made for them in connection with employment. In the course of his reply on the Estimate for the Department of Health the Minister referred to my remarks on this subject and in Volume 151, column 1565, he states:—

"A number of Deputies referred to the problem of rehabilitation. I hope to be able to make an announcement with regard to that in the near future. As I indicated in my statement, we are establishing a national body and this body will be charged with the duty of examining what facilities are needed and working out a policy for rehabilitation. It will aim at providing these unfortunate incapacitated people with some form of employment and some means of earning their daily bread in the same way as everybody else. Accordingly, a scheme of that kind and work of that kind will need co-operation from employers and employees ... I think a Deputy mentioned that the Government could do a lot. I entirely agree with that. I think that in the Government services there will be a possibility of absorbing many of our disabled citizens, but that will not be sufficient if the large industrial employers cannot or are not able or willing to provide employment and help in the problem of resettlement."

The Minister for Health made it quite clear that, as far as he was concerned, priority would be given to ex-T.B. patients where they were suitable and could be employed and he actually made a plea to big business and the trade unions and the industrial concerns to do what they could. He said that the Government services could not absorb all the ex-T.B. patients in employment and he asked non-State bodies to do what they could.

The Minister for Social Welfare is in close co-operation with the Minister for Health. The two Departments were, up to recently, under the one Minister. What is the position here? In this very appointment in Roscommon town one of the applicants had spent two years in Castlerea sanitorium. He is now in his own home in Roscommon. He has an office available to carry out the work and the transport to bring him wherever it is necessary for him to go in the course of his business. What happened when this man went before the interview board? Did he get the appointment? There was no question of that man being a Fianna Fáil supporter.

I think that the Minister for Social Welfare was not made completely aware of the position, and I think that it was my duty to raise that matter here in this House. It may sound a small matter to Deputies who are not familiar with the locality, but I think there is a principle involved. If a Government states that it is going to do all in its power to relieve the anxieties of people who suffer from T.B., and if the Minister for Health states that every effort would be made to absorb these people into Government employment where possible how can that policy be reconciled with the case of the Department of Social Welfare appointing a man almost 60 years of age to the post of local agent while a T.B. patient was there, able and fit and capable of carrying out correctly and efficiently the functions of local agent? That is all I have to ask, and I hope that the Minister in his reply will deal with it.

As far as the individual who has been appointed is concerned I have nothing against him personally, but I can say to the Minister that the information he has was from a little group of people who are anxious to get their own back, after a number of years, on Mr. O'Doherty's folk for their activities in the political field against the Fine Gael Party. The Minister was never made aware of that, and I am only sorry that I did not intervene much earlier so that he might know what was liable to happen behind the scenes. If the Minister had known I am certain that this appointment would never have been made.

I would like to ask, at this stage, that, since the appointment is a temporary one, the Minister might have the matter reconsidered. Whether the period of the appointment is for the next few weeks or otherwise there will be a question raised with regard to the office accommodation that has been made available in the town by the present holder of the position.

Mr. Corish

I think it would be appropriate that I should deal with the question raised by Deputy McQuillan in the course of his speech. I do not know whether or not, and I do not say this against either Deputy McQuillan or the aggrieved person, but I do not know if Deputy McQuillan has been briefed by Mr. O'Doherty. If he has been briefed, I think, in his own interests, that Mr. O'Doherty is acting in a very wrong way. He is an official of the Department of Social Welfare and I think that, in fairness to himself and to me and to the officials of the Department, he should have brought the complaint, in the first instance, to the appropriate officers.

One of his complaints is that he received a notice which he interpreted as being a notice that he was appointed to this particular office and that subsequently he saw an advertisement in the papers inviting applications for the position of local agent. Surely at that stage it was up to Mr. O'Doherty to make his official complaint. If he believed that the notice he had received was to the effect that he had secured the position, then, when he saw the advertisement in the papers, surely at that stage it was up to him to make a complaint either to the establishment officer, or, if he liked, to me directly.

I am not aware of or concerned with any branch of a Tory group or Fine Gael group in the town of Roscommon. As a matter of fact, I have never heard of them before. It is true to say that Deputy McQuillan came to me some time ago and mentioned this to me. He said that he was warning me that he was going to raise this matter by way of question and answer, and I must say I waited for Deputy McQuillan to table the question. I am glad he raised it here to-day, but he does not seem to have any objection to the particular gentleman who got the position. He is a bit dubious about his age, but I am perfectly satisfied, and I think Deputy McQuillan will agree, that even though he is 60 he is perfectly capable of carrying out the duties of the position. If his premises are not satisfactory I am sure that my officials will take care of them and will report to me that the premises are not adequate and are not the proper type of premises in which he could administer his particular job.

In respect of the second applicant whom Deputy McQuillan mentioned, the person who was a patient in a sanatorium for two years, I am not aware that this information was included in his application form—at least I do not remember seeing it, though I am not saying that it was not in it.

Mr. McQuillan

He was asked about it by the interview board.

Mr. Corish

Whether or not it was reported on the application form or on the official file I am not aware; but the very fact that Mr. O'Doherty was offered this appointment in the first place did not necessarily say that he had a prior claim to it. It has often been the position in the past not alone in respect of branch managers but in respect of different other officials in the Department of Social Welfare to take over these positions for a time until there is somebody appointed.

I do not intend to produce the results of the interview board in this particular case. It is a hackneyed expression for me to use, but it is not the practice. I would adopt the practice if I thought it would be adopted in respect of all other appointments in the State. Possibly Deputy McQuillan would like that course as well, but it has not been the practice, and I do not think it would be fair to do it in respect of this particular appointment. I only want to say that as far as I am concerned I am not interested in what a man's politics are.

Mr. McQuillan

I know that.

Mr. Corish

He could be one of three things in Roscommon. He could not be Labour, because I do not think we have tremendous support in Roscommon, but he could be Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil or Clann na Poblachta which, I believe, is fairly strong there.

Mr. McQuillan

Not too strong now. It is on the way out.

Mr. Corish

I want to assure Deputy McQuillan that as far as I am concerned if he believes he was wrongly treated by the Department it is still open to him to make his complaint either through the establishment officer or to me, and if I believe he has a grievance I certainly will undertake to give it my utmost consideration.

Mr. McQuillan

I am more concerned with the ex-T.B. patient and the principle involved than I am with the other man.

Mr. Corish

I must confess again that this is the first special indication I had of this person. I do not remember finding under his name that he was a patient in a sanatorium for two years, but again let me say this, that the very fact that he had T.B. would not entitle him to get the first claim on the position. There are other qualifications, as the Deputy is probably aware, such as general education and general ability to do the job.

Mr. McQuillan

He has a higher standard of education than the man who has the job. That is a well-known fact. He has a secondary school education.

Mr. Corish

The Deputy will appreciate that I cannot at this stage comment on the different qualities of the applicants by reason of the fact that I have not the file before me.

Mr. McQuillan

I understand that, and that is the reason why I asked that the question of the interview board should be re-examined.

Mr. Corish

In any case let me assure the Deputy or Mr. O'Doherty that if he believes he has a complaint with regard to the treatment he got or the way in which he was appointed I will be pleased if he submits it through his establishment officer, who in turn will come to me.

Mr. McQuillan

On a point of fact do I take it that there has been a threat issued to me that it is wrong for me to look for this information from the Minister, and a threat through me to Mr. O'Doherty? Is the Minister aware that I went to Mr. O'Doherty and asked him what happened in connection with his interview? I asked each client about the interview and got information from each client. I think it is most unfair and very sinister that a suggestion should be made in this way to threaten the man in a temporary capacity down the country "If you open your mouth without doing it through the regular channel out you go."

Mr. Corish

I do not think that anybody in the House could consider my remarks in the manner in which Deputy McQuillan has taken them. I merely said to Deputy McQuillan, and I think it is a fair offer, that if this gentleman believes he has a grievance against me or the officials of the Department I will be pleased if he submits it through the establishment officer of the Department who in turn will transmit it to me.

Deputy Kennedy, who spoke here in connection with the use of Irish in the Department of Social Welfare, described what he had done in order to promote the Irish language. I want to say in the first place that I have not undone anything that he initiated in respect of the promotion of the Irish language, but possibly we may differ as to method. I would hate to slow down the Department of Social Welfare by insisting even in any small degree that certain of the officials should use Irish where I believed it would slow up the work.

I have issued instructions to the establishment officer in the Department of Social Welfare, who in turn asks the officials of the Department to use the Irish language where they can in ordinary matters such as "Hand me the file", "Where are you going?""You are later this morning", "You are early this morning", or some small phrases like that. But I do not believe that the Civil Service generally and in my Department is geared up in any great respect to do its job through the medium of the Irish language entirely. It would be difficult even if they were geared up to do their job in the Irish language inasmuch as a very small percentage of the public can do their job through the medium of Irish.

In the filling of forms and the answering of queries there is no evidence as far as I can see that the general public want to do their business through the Irish language. But as I say, within the Civil Service itself and by ordinary means I think we can make some improvements towards the restoration of the language by the use now and again and in a certain mild form of the language by the officials.

Deputy Kennedy also asked what was the position with regard to decentralisation. I am afraid I must confess to Deputy Kennedy that as yet there is no decision, speaking for myself, and I must say that a Government decision has not been taken on this. I am in favour of the principle of decentralisation, but I often wonder why decentralisation should be regarded as being peculiar to the Department of Social Welfare. I certainly would be in favour of sending to some other part of the country —not necessarily Galway—some sections of the Department. I favour that in principle, but I have still got to see how it would work out in practice.

I think that my predecessor, or should I say the previous Government, did also accept the principle of decentralisation, but they too had difficulty, or recognised that they would have difficulty, in trying to transfer, say, the widows' and orphans' pensions section, the old age pensions section or the children's allowances section to some other part of the country. I think that my predecessor and the previous Government were thinking in terms of Galway. I want to say that I am not wedded, nor is the Government, to the idea of transferring any part of the Department to Galway in particular. If there is to be decentralisation as far as my Department is concerned I am sure every other provincial town in Ireland will be considered.

There is another thing that struck me about decentralisation of the Department of Social Welfare. I think it is true-if not the Minister for Finance may correct me—that we have fairly reasonable accommodation for the Civil Service in Dublin at the present time and I wonder if I were to shift 200 or 300 civil servants from Aras Mhic Dhiarmada what would we do with the accommodation that was left? As it is I think it is a section which is fairly comfortable as far as accommodation is concerned. The Government will consider decentralisation not so much in relation to the Department of Social Welfare but in so far as every other Department in the State is concerned.

Deputy Kennedy asked about the progress being made in the building of new employment exchanges in the West. I should like to tell him and the House that the new employment exchange at Westport is practically completed and will be ready for occupation in the near future. A new exchange is also being built in the West at Ballina, County Mayo. That exchange will be open before the end of the year. In regard to Tralee a site has been obtained for a new employment exchange there and it is expected that the preliminary work will be completed soon and that the work will be started in the near future. I am very concerned, especially realising how it affects my own town, about the need for new employment exchanges all over the country and I shall, as far as I can, try to press the Government to have these provided in the shortest possible time.

Apart from the fact that new exchanges are needed, there is need also I think at the present time, considering the slow down in building operations, to make up that lag and give much necessary employment. I would also like to tell the House that in regard to Dublin City I am endeavouring to establish branch offices in certain suburbs. I think the House will agree that to have only two employment exchanges in the City of Dublin imposes a hardship on those people who now find themselves living in the suburbs; it is hard and expensive for many workers to have to come from places like Cabra and Ballyfermot into the centre of the city to sign in the employment exchanges and to draw allowances. Therefore, I am considering the establishment of six branch employment exchanges to facilitate workers who find themselves living in the suburbs.

Practically every year, during the debate on this Estimate there are complaints, and justifiable complaints, with regard to the delays in the payment of sickness benefits. As a Deputy and as Minister I have been very concerned about these complaints. I have taken a particular interest in the problem since I assumed office 12 months ago. I think that after that time we can report progress. It may not be evident to many of the Deputies that this is a very difficult problem. The records of the Department show that while there are such complaints, it must be admitted that many of the complaints are not real. A person might go to a Deputy and say that he has been cut off from benefit or that his benefit has been cut down. The Deputy regards that as a mistake made by officials in the Department, but on inquiry it is found that there is a good reason for either the cutting down or the cutting out of benefits; it is governed by the number of stamps a person had in the previous qualifying year.

I have also taken steps to reorganise that section and I think an improvement has been effected. I want to ensure that as few complaints as possible will occur. These complaints do occur not because the staff or the organisation is any worse than in any other sections but the staff has a more difficult job. I would be the first to admit a mistake if it were made, but as Deputy Davern said the insured contributors themselves make mistakes from time to time by failing to get their employers to stamp their cards or by failing to send in the cards. Some of them who get married fill in their application forms forgetting that they have become married and therefore they get the minimum benefits. When they are filling in their application forms they forget they have wives and children and there may be a few weeks' delay before there is an adjusting payment made to them.

The employers, I might say, are not blameless in this regard either; sometimes they default in sending in the cards at the proper time and sometimes they fail to put on a proper number of stamps. All these things cause delays in the payment of benefits—sickness and disability benefits. It must also be appreciated that 40,000 people are in receipt of these benefits and that accordingly mistakes can easily be made. Again, let me repeat that in so far as it is possible I will try to insist that there will be very few delays in that particular section. Deputy Tully said that there was discourtesy shown by certain officials. I suppose officials in all Departments and many of ourselves are not blameless in that respect but I should like that Deputy Tully, or any other Deputy who has similar complaints, would give me the names of those concerned. I shall have steps taken to see that the complaints are remedied.

Mr. James Tully

I was talking about local officials.

Mr. Corish

It does not make any difference. They are employees of the Department of Social Welfare and I would not tolerate discourtesy by any members of the staff of my Department in so far as their relations with the public are concerned. After all they are dealing with a very humble and deserving section of the community—with the type of person more entitled to respect than a lot of other sections. As I have said, if Deputy Tully or any other Deputies have complaints to make let them inform me and I shall have no hesitation in inquiring into them.

Deputy MacBride spoke about the training of blind persons. Again, let me say I have taken a particular interest in the training of blind persons and their rehabilitation. The officers in the Department have been extremely good in this regard and in the past year a lot of progress has been made. Many of these people have been placed in Government Departments and successful efforts have been made to place many others in private employment. All of these people have been very good employees, in fact in most cases it has been found that their outlook has been as good as that of persons with the faculty of full sight.

Deputy Davern mentioned spinsters. I cannot say much about spinsters at the present time but we all read with interest about a move made by the Italian Government recently when they introduced allowances for spinsters of a certain age. I am afraid I am not in a position at the present time to make any promise about the spinsters although I have the utmost sympathy for them but if we gave them an allowance at a certain age would it not discourage them entirely from ever seeking to marry? There have been complaints about the differentiation between the worker who earned a certain amount—say, £4 10s. a week— and whose wife was over 70 years of age. We had reference made to farmers who had holdings of under £30 valuation.

I do not know if anything can be done in that regard in the immediate future—to try and remedy all the grievances there are in respect of application of the means test. It would cost a colossal amount of money—something like £4,000,000—and while I still agree with the principle of the removal of the means test, if I had £4,000,000 to spend I would prefer to give greater allowances. In any case the application of the means test in regard to farmers whose holdings are under £30 valuation is part of the 1952 Social Welfare Act and were we to do anything it would mean the introduction of amending legislation.

A farmer, say, whose valuation is under £30, for the purpose of getting the old age pension, transfers the farm to his son or daughter and, therefore, qualifies for and receives the pension, but I am afraid many of the farmers are still the boss on the farm and derive the same income as they did before. I know the idea my predecessor, Deputy Dr. Ryan, had in that and it was very laudable—to encourage the son or daughter to marry —but I think the experience has been or, at least, my experience leads me to believe that in many cases, whilst the transfer is legally effected, these farmers, who are now old age pensioners, still run and control the farm and derive most of the profit from it.

I think it was Deputy Davern who mentioned the hardship it was to a married person who was deprived of the marriage grant because of her failure to notify the marriage. I can say to Deputy Davern that I have sympathy with him in respect of that particular problem, and I think I can say that I will take steps to extend the period during which notification should be made.

These were the main points raised in this debate. I would like to thank the Deputies for the way in which they have discussed the Vote.

Vote put and agreed to.