Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Jul 1955

Vol. 152 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 60—Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Corish)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £340,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare.

There are three Estimates for my Department. The first one, that for the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, deals with salaries and other administration expenses. The second, the Estimate for social insurance, provides for the Exchequer contribution in connection with insurance benefits, and the third, the Estimate for social assistance, provides the amounts required to pay old age and blind pensions, widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, unemployment assistance, children's allowances and certain other services such as school meals and blind welfare. The net total of the three Estimates is £20,855,500. I should mention that the estimated cost of the increases in the rates of old age and blind pensions and widows' non-contributory pensions, operative from the 29th July, is not included in these Estimates. Provision will be made for these increases in a Supplementary Estimate which will be introduced before the end of the financial year.

The net amount of the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare is £510,000. This is a decrease of £13,050 as compared with the net provision in last year's Vote. The decrease is mainly due to an increase in Appropriations-in-Aid in respect of costs of administration of the insurance scheme which are recoverable from the Social Insurance Fund.

Deputies may remember that when I was introducing this Estimate last year I was able to point to a reduction in the amount required for salaries of £24,347 and a reduction in the number of staff of no fewer than 144. In the Estimate for the preceding year, 1953-54 the cost of salaries was reduced by £21,308 and the number of staff by 90. In view of these reductions in cost and number of staff and others which have been made since the setting up of my Department in 1947, there is not now the same scope for economy as there formerly was. Nevertheless there has been in this year's Estimate a small further reduction of six in the number of staff employed in the Department and the pursuit of economy in administration goes on continuously.

There is a decrease of £34,000 in the Estimate of £2,764,000 for Social Insurance as compared with the Vote for the previous year. This is mainly attributable to a reduction of £30,000 in the provision for payment to the Social Insurance Fund. This payment represents the amount by which the income of the fund is estimated to fall short of its expenditure in 1955-56.

It is estimated that the cost in the current financial year of the various insurance benefits and of their administration will be £8,373,000 approximately. This is made up as follows:—

	£
Disability Benefit	3,042,000
Unemployment Benefit	2,373,000
Widows' and Orphans' Contributory Pensions	1,491,000
Treatment Benefits	229,000
Maternity Benefits	110,000
Marriage Grant	77,000
Administration Costs	1,051,000

The income of the fund in 1955-56 is estimated at £5,641,000 made up as follows:—Income from contributions, £5,106,000; income from investments, £535,000. The difference between the expenditure figure of £8,373,000 and the income figure of £5,641,000 is £2,732,000 to which £2,000 has to be added as the amount due from the Exchequer in respect of late payments under the former insurance schemes.

The figures I have just quoted differ only slightly from the corresponding figures of actual expenditure and income in the year ending 31st March, 1955, and it is expected that it will in future be possible to estimate fairly accurately the amount required under this Vote to balance the expenditure and income of the Social Insurance Fund. This was not possible in the first years of the fund's existence owing to the radical changes effected by the Social Welfare Act, 1952.

The net provision for social assistance, estimated at £17,581,500, is £213,900 less than the corresponding provision for last year. This is mainly due to a reduction of £339,000 in the Estimate for unemployment assistance offset by increases in the Estimates for children's allowances, widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions and other services. The provisions in this Estimate for old age pensions and widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions do not cover the cost of the increases in these pensions from the 29th July. This extra cost will, as I stated earlier, be provided for by a Supplementary Estimate.

The decrease of £339,000 in the provision for unemployment assistance as compared with the Vote for last year is attributable in part to the downward trend in the numbers on the live register and in part to the fact that the amount estimated for unemployment assistance in 1954-55 exceeded the amount required by £285,000. This excess was mainly due to the fact that persons who had hitherto relied on employment assistance qualified to an unexpected and unforeseeable extent for unemployment benefit under the Social Welfare Act, 1952. In consequence expenditure on unemployment benefit was higher last year than had been expected, while, as I have stated, expenditure on unemployment assistance was less than expected. In this connection Deputies will remember that agricultural workers who formerly had to depend on unemployment assistance when unemployed became entitled under the Social Welfare Act, 1952, to unemployment benefit.

The increase of £120,000 in the provision for children's allowance is due to a continuing rise in the number of children eligible for allowances under the scheme.

Seosamh Ó Cinnéide

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús cur síos a dhéanamh ar úsáid na Gaeilge san oifig seo. Oifig nua í, suite mar atá sí in Áras Mhic Dhiarmada. Nuair a bhí mise im Rúnaí Parlaiminte rinne mé iarracht cúis na Gaeilge a chur ar aghaidh san oifig agus d'éirigh go maith liom freisin. Tionóladh cupla cruinniú nó trí de na daoine a bhí ag obair san oifig agus bhí dul ar aghaidh maith déanta againn i gcúis na teangan nuair d'fhág mise an post. Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil an spéis chéanna ag an Aire anois sa gcás. Tá baint ag an Roinn seo le gach uile cheantar agus paróiste sa tír; tá baint aici leis na fir oibre agus na mná oibre agus bfhéidir leis a lán dea-oibre a dhéanamh i gcúis na Gaeilge.

I am sure the present Minister will pursue the efforts we laid in the short time we were in the office of the Department of Social Welfare in spreading the use of Irish in this Department. No Department of State has more intimate contact with the people in their daily lives than has this Department. Its activities extend to every parish, every townland and every locality and a lot of work could be done for the cause. We all have the common duty of undoing the results of conquest not alone socially but nationally and culturally. Before I left the post of Parliamentary Secretary, I suggested that in some simple things we could help the propagation of the use of Irish especially in the payment of cheques. I was met on that point by the responsible officials who said that, as far as the Gaeltacht was concerned, they would do their best to operate such a scheme.

I would like the Minister to look further into this matter because in my county we pay the roadmen and officials by cheques completely in Irish and there is no difficulty at all about it. I do not see why the Department of Social Welfare, with a Minister sympathetic to the cause of the Irish language, should not do the same. Furthermore, in offices up and down the country, we could have as many signs as possible in the Irish language. That is very well done in Donegal and could be done to a great extent in other offices. I know I am pushing an open door and I will not stress the matter further beyond saying that the Department of Social Welfare is much more in touch with people than any other Department. Their agents have to go into every townland even more frequently than Gardaí.

That brings me to a pet subject of mine, the decentralisation of this office. I would ask the Minister what progress has been made in relation to the establishment of an office in Galway. If he pushes that scheme forward he can do a great deal for the cause of the Irish language because that office could be made a Gaelic-speaking office. It would deal with the payment of the children's allowances and various other social welfare schemes that were visualised when I was in the office.

Again, I should like to know what progress has been made in Ballina, Westport, Tralee and other places in regard to new offices. The Minister is not sole boss in this matter. He has to wait for the Board of Works plans and they are slow but I am sure that during the past year some progress was made in these particular places.

In co-operation with the Department of Agriculture and the municipal authorities, a great deal could be done to centralise the various social welfare schemes in these offices. They could be on the lines of the hotel-de-ville. A person seeking an old age pension or national health benefit or unemployment insurance could go to that central place and make application. In the case of a town in the West, one part of the Department's activity was administered from an old church. The national health section of the Department was up on a hill. For old age pension purposes, the office was on the quays. In order to give good service to these applicants, the people who need it most, it is necessary to centralise as much as possible. At home, in my own place, they are building a new dispensary. It is only a small town and I got them to agree to the idea of giving the man in charge of the labour exchange an office there. He has agreed to take it. They are also putting the library there. I suggested, and I think the manager has approved, that a room should be allocated to the home assistance officers and another large room to the local agricultural instructor, where he could meet farmers and give them advice and directions. If that idea were carried out, the people would know where to apply for the various benefits. There would be one central place.

Our nearest approach to that is in Athlone, where the post office and the Department of Social Welfare and the Garda Station are in very well built buildings grouped near the church—it is not a cathedral but a very large church on the Connaught side of the bridge.

I am sorry I was not here for the beginning of the Minister's statement. I waited here in vain for four hours last night thinking the Minister would get in. I want to refer to the administration of national health insurance.

Mr. J. Brennan

On a point of order. Is it in order for a Deputy to read a paper during an important debate like this? A Labour Deputy is reading a paper when the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Social Welfare is in progress.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not in order to read newspapers in the House except for the purpose of reference.

Mr. Kennedy

He probably was reading about the circular in Wexford.

Mr. O'Leary

I was looking for something in it.

Mr. Kennedy

I was referring to the administration of national health. This has always been a difficult problem in the Department of Social Welfare. Formerly it was under Local Government or someone else. I often asked myself, when I was over there, was there too much of a bottle-neck.

Mr. O'Sullivan

As objection has been taken to a Deputy on this side reading a paper, I would say that we have noticed, from time to time, that Deputies on the opposite side have done so and we have refrained from drawing attention to the fact. Umbrage cannot be taken if we draw attention to any further instance of it in future.

Mr. O'Leary

I was trying to find some previous references by Deputy Kennedy.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Attention will be drawn to such an occurrence in future.

Mr. Kennedy

I am being frequently interrupted in my speech and I protest against interruptions. I want to make my speech. I was dealing with national health when I was interrupted. Delays are still frequent. I understand the Minister is paying particular attention to this matter but, nevertheless, there are undue delays. I came across a case the other day where a man who was very seriously ill had sent in seven certificates. It is not the only case. When I was over there I often consulted the Minister who was over me if it would speed up matters if there were some system of payment from the offices such as there is in the case of unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance. There has been a move on, a proper move, to get the national health officer into the labour exchange. Could we go a bit further and have payments made from the labour exchange or sent out from it instead of everything having to go to Dublin? All certificates, whether they come from Tory Island or Valentia or anywhere else, must go to Dublin and be sent back again.

I have referred already to the centralisation of various activities in one office. It is purely a Cork matter but the Cork people will pardon me if I refer to it. I understand the Cork Corporation are erecting a very fine building to house all their scattered offices.

Mr. A. Barry

The county council.

Mr. Kennedy

Could there not be co-operation between the Government and the corporation to get in the second largest city in the State a building that would take in both Government and municipal offices? It might be a very desirable thing. No matter what opinions may be held in this connection I contend that, ultimately, there would be a saving in the construction of these central buildings. Very often a hired building does not lend itself to the services that are supposed to be given by the Department of Social Welfare. I remember being in Ballina. Old persons had to climb a flight of stairs to the second storey to see the social welfare officer in connection with their claim to the old age pension. That is very hard on aged people. I have just mentioned that instance to indicate that I believe offices specially constructed, such as the ones in Waterford or Kilkenny, for the purpose of administering the Social Welfare Act are most desirable. These are points that strike me in connection with this Vote. As there are other Deputies here who are well acquainted with the whole matter of social welfare, I will not delay the House any longer.

Mr. James Tully

Social welfare covers a very wide field but I do not propose to delay the House by discussing it in detail. I have only a few points to make but I think they are very important.

Deputy Kennedy has just referred to the question of the payment of people who are out sick and drawing disability benefit. I would ask the Minister to give special attention to this matter. While here in Dublin, in the central office, any claims or business sent in are dealt with very expeditiously the same is not true of local agents. I am sorry to say that in rural Ireland it is not uncommon to find a local agent (1) holding on to a certificate until it suits him to send it in with a number of others and (2) when payment is made through him, sending it along to the person, who very often needs it urgently, only when it suits him to call to that district and in some cases he is apparently too lazy to go to the post office to post it. I suppose every Deputy in the House has the same experience as I have in this connection. Speaking for myself, I can say I get, on an average, two or three complaints per week about people who are ill. They have sent in certificates and have not received their social welfare benefits, as they should have. It is not an uncommon thing to find five, six and seven weeks passing by.

Another matter which I should like to refer to is that quite a number of those officers—many of them only temporary —seem to imagine they are a law unto themselves. To put it mildly, they are anything but courteous to the people who are unfortunate enough to have certificates or claims sent through them. These may be exceptional cases but they do arise. On several occasions I had to bring matters to the notice of the Minister and of the senior officers. I think some disciplinary action should be taken against people in minor offices who—if they are in bad humour—try to take it out on some unfortunate person who is depending on a few shillings from the State to live.

I want to speak now about something which happened several times in the past few years and that is the question of amalgamating two or more areas under one local office. In country districts we sometimes find that when a local officer retires or is dismissed— it occasionally happens—the Department, in their wisdom or otherwise, decide to amalgamate two or more areas under one local office. Perhaps it is a saving to the Exchequer but I do not believe it would be very much of a saving. The result is that people have to travel ten, 11, and in one instance 12 miles, to the local office to seek information or to collect money due to them but which had not been sent out. The Department will have to do something about this matter. I can see no good reason why it should be necessary that local offices should be so spaced that people cannot easily reach them.

Deputy Kennedy referred to the question of paying through the labour exchange. I do not think that is feasible at all. In the past few years —maybe it has not been so bad for the past 12 months—the labour exchanges have had quite enough to do without adding this extra burden. It is easy to say that there is an office there and that the staff are trained in the work and that, therefore, the Government should be able to work this out properly. It just does not work out that way. It is vitally necessary that somebody who is appointed a local officer should be in a position to see to it that the money sent for somebody who is ill will reach that person in the shortest possible time.

I come now to the question of old age pensions. We have the position that where somebody is in possession of a farm not exceeding £30 valuation he can legally transfer that farm to a member of the family for the purpose of qualifying for an old age pension. The income from that farm is sometimes very high. Does it not seem ridiculous that, while the owner of a farm can do that, a farm labourer who is working on the farm for, say, £4 10s. a week and whose wife is over 70 years of age has his wife debarred from drawing the old age pension because his income is more than that allowed under the Act? I think there is something wrong in that.

I feel the Minister's Department should look into the whole question because, unless something is done about it, this will continue. Over the years we shall have the position that people such as that farm labourer's wife—people who, having worked all their lives, are entitled to have this little bit extra at the end of their days —are debarred because of the fact that the husband is drawing in excess of £4 a week. It may be argued that they have lived all their life on the wages they are getting and that, therefore, they do not require anything extra. Surely the same is true of the person who was in possession of the farm and who transferred it in order to qualify for the old age pension?

The conditions under which the old age pension is given or rather not given to many people are far too strict. I honestly believe there should be some more laxity in the regulations because if there is a strict regulation in regard to anything in this country it is on the calculation in respect of the old age pension. Cases arise of persons who have a very slight income being deprived of receiving the full pension because of that slight income. We have also the position in which people who have worked all their lives for a small pension from the local council or from the State find themselves debarred because they have such an income.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.