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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Jul 1955

Vol. 152 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

I mentioned three of the Government's promises—to keep the cost of living down, to reduce taxation and to expand agricultural production. Another promise was to improve the conditions for private enterprise in this country. Deputy Lemass dealt with that at some length and I propose to come back to it later on in some detail. At the moment, I would just say that Deputy Lemass's concern for private enterprise in the previous Government did not prevent that Government from hogging the whole of the capital market in this country during the period for which they were in office from 1951 to 1954. One can pay lip-service, if one likes, to the idea of private enterprise and of making adequate facilities available for it; but it is a different matter to provide the conditions in which the facilities will be available, and that is what the present Government have done.

I think it is unlikely now that a national loan will be required this year and I would hope that in these circumstances, in the autumn of this year and the beginning of next year, many of the private enterprise firms who have been depending on bank accommodation for their working capital will have an opportunity of going to the market and getting permanent capital, so that they will no longer be in the position of depending on what is really short term accommodation.

The sixth point was to increase employment and reduce emigration. Whether the Government were responsible or not, the fact is that employment has increased and that there are not and could not be, despite Deputy Lemass's opinion, as many people emigrating now as were emigrating during the years 1951 to 1954. I shall come back to that point again.

"Social welfare benefits will be increased"—the Government have already increased old age pensions by 2/6 per week. To my mind, it is a modest enough increase when one considers that, in purchasing power, it brings the old age pension just back to the level at which it was before the war in 1938. Having regard to the fact that the national income has increased since that time by 20 per cent., I think, as I have mentioned, it is a moderate enough level, but at least it is a far better level than it was on the two occasions when Fianna Fáil left office. The standard rate of old age pension when they left office in 1948 had been increased by nothing like the increase in the cost of living. Last year the standard rate of old age pension at 21/6 was well below the increase in the cost of living as compared with 1938.

"To secure the building of more houses by private and public effort and in particular by improving the credit facilities and easing loan charges"— that has been done, that is item No. 8.

Item No. 9 involved the removal of the health services from the field of acrimonious political discussion. By the efforts of the Minister for Health that has been done.

I come now to two items in that programme which have not been attended to yet in the way which the Government hopes to deal with them. No. 10— to establish a Ministry specially concerned to deal with the cultural and economic problems of the Gaeltacht; no one would deny the seriousness of those problems. That is a specific promise of the Government. No. 11, as has been indicated by the Minister for Education, has already been put in hands—"to examine the whole field of education in the light of experience gained since the establishment of native Government and with special regard to the position of the national language".

No. 12 has in fact been carried out— it related to the restoration of democratic rights in respect of local government by the amendment of the County Management Acts. I come back now to the only one of them which I omitted, "to restore the unity of Ireland and to safeguard the Irish cultural tradition". The position the Government has taken in that matter was dealt with yesterday by the Minister for External Affairs.

This is the printed document which was issued before the formation of the present Government. Could any reasonable person say that an honest effort has not been made to implement that document as it was issued at that time?

I come back now to Deputy Lemass's speech. He claimed that any development in agriculture which occurred all through the year 1954 was due to the Fianna Fáil Party, to the Government which was in office until June of last year, and that all the credit for the position which has existed, the relatively satisfactory position which has existed in agriculture, must go to the Fianna Fáil Party. All right; I grant that, for the purposes of discussion. Why then did Deputy Lemass say that the increase in the cost of living of three points is the responsibility of the Government, when two of those three points occurred between May and August of last year? In other words, part of it had occurred before the Fianna Fáil Government had left office and in actual fact it was a marginal matter whether the third point did not occur previous to last February. It is the inconsistency and the illogical position taken up in these two parts of his speech that I am putting into comparison with one another. The cost of living did go up three points in the last 12 months and two of those points occurred in the first three of those 12 months.

For all the talk and generalisations we heard from Deputy Lemass during his speech, with a single exception of the reference to tea, he did not quote a single example of a mistake made by the Government in an economic decision which they took, in any decision in relation to economic policy. He made continuous references to the future. It is very easy to deal with the future in that particular way, to act the part of the gentleman who says: "the bogey man will get you if you don't watch out". I am inclined to think that the prices position in the world may not be as easy as it was for the last Government. They were very fond of saying that the difficulties which met them were due to external conditions. That is not so. World wholesale prices reached their highest in March and April of 1951 and they dropped 10 per cent. in the following two years.

When Deputy Lemass came into office he signed price increase Orders for a multitude of industrial products, based on these high prices of raw materials—which are roughly half the cost of our industrial products. There was a drop of 10 per cent. in the price of these new materials and, therefore, in this half of the cost of industrial products, yet I am not aware of any instance of any significance in which Deputy Lemass signed a prices Order reducing the price of any industrial product during the succeeding three years when he was in office up to June of last year. Why did the people not get the benefit of this reduction during that period?

Deputy Childers is very fond of referring to the year 1953 as a great year of recovery. I have two points I want to make in relation to that matter. The first of these points is that the year 1953 was bound to be a year in which there would be recovery, because of the slough into which the economy had descended at the end of 1952 and the beginning of 1953. Such recovery as happened was due, in the main, to a policy of borrowing on a vast scale. Nobody would object to that borrowing if it had been put to good purpose, but the purpose to which it had to be put was the recovery of the country following the damage which had been done by the mistaken policy in the 1952 Budget.

According to the Statistical Survey for 1954, page 50, the domestic physical capital formation was nearly £78,000,000 in the year 1953, far the highest figure of any of the recent years, more than £4,000,000 higher than the year 1951. How was that brought about? It was brought about by borrowings by the Minister for Finance and the Dublin and Cork Corporations, new capital borrowings, that is, actual issues on the market. Of course, there were other assets available to the Government like the savings in the Post Office Savings Bank and so on, but the actual capital issues amounted to just under £30,000,000.

In the year 1950, Deputy McGilligan, then Minister for Finance, was supposed to be "borrowing us into insolvency" and the total amount of new capital raised in that year was £19.4 millions. It is for that reason that I have some doubts, from a strictly economic point of view, about some of the figures which appeared in the Taoiseach's statement:—

"Percentage savings, as computed by the Central Statistics Office, amounted to 13 per cent. in 1953 but fell back to 10.7 per cent. in 1954."

This question of savings is bound up with the other matter of capital formation because, as computed by the Central Statistics Office, capital formation is equal to savings, plus depreciation, plus external disinvestment. There would be no reason at all to disagree with depreciation and external disinvestment. They are easily computed but if you compute capital formation by adding up all the bricks, mortar machines and so on which are produced or imported into a community in a year and then say that, after taking into account provision for depreciation and external disinvestment, the remainder is savings you are bound to get, or almost bound to get, a figure which is higher in a year when there are large-scale issues of public borrowings than in a year when there are no such issues.

It is my submission that this borrowing in 1953 by the Government and the local authorities was largely the creation of new money and that it was, therefore, responsible for the increase in capital formation and that it did not represent savings. Therefore, I am inclined to think that one should be very careful about making year to year comparisons of savings. It is a very difficult matter. You can know at certain times. For example, after the outbreak of the war in Korea it is quite evident that from a monetary point of view there were no savings, thinking in terms of money, because everybody was stocking up with goods in case there was a major war. Subsequently, these goods were gradually used up and while they were being used up there tended to be monetary savings.

Might I say that in entering this caveat about these figures I am in a minority? The particular method of approach to computing these savings used by the Central Statistics Office here is that used in most modern countries and our efforts in relation to the matter are remarkably good, that is, from the calculation point of view. In other words, the statistics office here sins in a very numerous company. But from a personal point of view, even if I were alone in my opinion, it would not worry me to say that the results of these calculations are at times quite inaccurate—but I am not alone in the matter.

For example, it has been said recently in Britain in The Economist— I cannot give the exact date but it was towards the end of last year—by one of the statisticians who have engaged in the study of this matter that in Britain there was a missing £500,000,000 in relation to a recent year. If there is a missing £500,000,000, you can put any name you like on it. You can call it a balance or you can call it savings if you feel like it. If it is one way it is savings and if it is another way it is disinvestment. When you have figures of this sort, balancing a figure added to another figure against a third figure, it is the very same as a balance sheet. This national income accountancy is exactly the same as the old company balance sheet. A great deal of hard work goes into it just as a great deal of hard work sometimes goes into balance sheets. It follows that if there is this defect over short periods in this method of calculation any explanation of a fall in personal savings from 10.3 in 1953, say, to 8.6 in 1954 is open to doubt.

Items like stocks and work in progress which come into it relate to moments in time and it is difficult to bring such items which relate to moments in time into comparison with the process which occurs through time —that is the process of saving. As I say, I have no doubt that savings did increase in 1953 compared with 1952 and 1951. I grant that. It is a reasonable proposition but whether, in fact, they were greater in 1953 than in 1954 is a matter which is open to doubt.

Let us come back to the speech made by Deputy Lemass for a moment. He suggested in the opening sentences of that speech that the Government had decided to adjourn the Dáil for more than three months to escape questions. The Government have decided, with the agreement of the Opposition, to adjourn the Dáil because the work which was put in hands has been completed and for no other reason. If some of the questions which we heard yesterday, two of them in particular, are to be regarded as the embarrassing questions, I think it is just as well for the Opposition that the House is going to adjourn for more than three months.

He suggested that the Government were afraid of the upward movement of prices and quite blandly suggested that there was no reference to the problem in the Taoiseach's speech. There was, in fact, a detailed reference to it—a reference of some length. Deputy Lemass also stated that the Taoiseach was the head of a Government not all of whom were agreed on principles of practical policy. He gave no example, no instance of that. He mentioned no single instance. He threw out that general statement and again he gave us no single instance of it. He suggested that the Government was carrying on administration on a day-to-day basis. I have shown, I think, that the Government has covered in its first year in office a considerable part of the programme which it set before the people as its programme.

Deputy Lemass suggested that there was an excessive concern with the maintenance of a political front. Deputy Lemass made a statement and wrote to the newspapers about the system of voting in the local elections. I do not think that anybody would defend a system of voting in which a person gets a ballot paper with 20, 30, 40 and even 50 names on it but that is a matter of administration of elections. It should be quite easy to deal with that particular matter so as to reduce the number of candidates in any area to some number like ten or 12. It has been suggested by many people that quite a modest deposit by candidates in the local elections would result in a considerable reduction in the number of such candidates.

In the considerable portion of his speech which Deputy Lemass devoted to prices, past, present and to come, his general line might be put in the question which he asked at one stage: Has the Government any policy at all about prices? I will answer that question. It is a general question and I shall answer it in the only way in which you could answer such a question. In present circumstances, in the position which the Government finds itself in recent months, the Government's policy is to keep down prices anywhere and everywhere it can. That is the Government's policy and it is quite obvious that I am speaking the truth when I say that. There is not one title or jot of evidence that can be produced which indicates that statement is not correct.

He also asked the general question about the cost-of-living index going up —"does the Government think they can do anything about it?"—and at that point he made what was really a very foolish suggestion. I do not think he quite meant it. It must have been his irritation over the local elections. I do not really believe he meant it. He said that because, in some stencilled document or other that we all get, there was a blank for the cost-of-living index for the month of May, it had been held up in Merrion Street, and when put to the point he said, "in the Taoiseach's Department". It certainly was not to my knowledge held up in the Taoiseach's Department. That is the only answer one can give to that. The Taoiseach said it was dealt with in the usual way. I do not really believe—to be fair to him—that Deputy Lemass meant that. He may have looked for the figure and may have been irritated when it was not there where he would normally expect to find it. That may perhaps account for it. He dealt at some length with the industrialisation of the West and on that I would like to make the following observation. An Foras Tionscal when first set up by Deputy Lemass put in hands some projects and did in its first year or so achieve some good. I am not going to go into figures for it now. I have not got them with me, but there is no denying that it practically ceased to operate during the year 1953 and the first half of 1954. It was resurrected by the present Government and one of the reasons it ceased to operate was that the people who were operating it were the same people as were developing industries here and were concerned with matters like the Industrial Credit Company and were concerned with industries in the eastern part of the country. If I were in earnest about setting up a body to develop industry in the West, I certainly would not have the same personnel on it as we have on the committees concerned with the development of industry in the eastern part of the country.

Deputy Lemass also said that you could not invest in the West if you were going to turn down every proposition which conflicted with private enterprise in the eastern part of the country. To the best of my belief, when Deputy Lemass was Minister for Industry and Commerce his instructions to the people who were operating An Foras Tionscal were that industries were not to be set up west of the Shannon by An Foras Tionscal if they competed with private enterprise in the eastern part of the country. I am not necessarily quarrelling with the principle behind that decision; I am quarrelling with the nature of the speech that Deputy Lemass made here this evening on the subject, he having given that decision. I think it is reasonable to quarrel with it.

Deputy Lemass suggested—quite rightly in my opinion—that the level of investment in private enterprise has been inadequate in recent years. Of course it has. That is borne out by the figures on page 12 of the current report of the Central Bank. What was the best year for new capital issues for private enterprise in the last five years? The best year by streets was the year 1951 when there were issues for industry and commerce— that is for private enterprise—of £4,500,000. The issues in 1950 were £1.4 million; in 1951, as I have said £4,500,000; in 1952, £1.4 million; in 1953, £.9 million; in 1954, £.7 million. In 1953, in the year when the State and Dublin and Cork Corporations borrowed £29.9 million, you had private enterprise issues amounting to £.9 million. Take the first two years of the period, when the previous inter-Party Government were in office in 1950 and 1951—taking them together—the State and Dublin and Cork Corporations floated loans amounting to about £25,000,000, while new capital for industry and commerce amounted to a modest enough total of £5.9 million. Compare this with the years 1953 and 1954 when the State and local loans amounted to £54,000,000 and the private enterprise capital raised amounted to £1.4 million.

On this subject I think there is a good augury that we are on the verge of a change; it now seems unlikely that there will be a national loan this year, and I would, therefore, hope that the many issues of new capital which private enterprise has been unable to make since the year 1951 will at long last be made, and that these companies who have been depending for so long on bank credit will be able to put their affairs on a more satisfactory basis from the capital point of view.

Deputy Lemass referred to the grassmeal project. I thought the grassmeal project had been threshed out at some length in this House and I understand from the local election results in that particular part of Mayo that the people of that particular part of Mayo are satisfied with the arrangements the Government has made for the development of those particular bogs.

They are more than satisfied: they knew that the whole thing was a joke.

I cannot see then what point there was in drawing it up and making references to the Gowla proposition.

Finally, Deputy Lemass said the present Government were sitting back and doing nothing and that the previous Government had made great efforts to expand the level of investment here. How can you expand the level of investment when you, first of all, set out on an austerity programme and you then turn that austerity programme into a policy of panic borrowing? For example, in the capital formation that I mentioned in the year 1953, the £78,000,000, all the schemes of works by the Special Works Committee of the Dublin Corporation are included in that. Is that capital formation in the real sense of the term? It certainly is not productive capital as mentioned by the Taoiseach in his speech this evening.

I think I have indicated, first of all, that the Government have carried out their pledges to the people to a remarkable degree during their first year in office, and secondly, that Deputy Lemass was able to quote no real instance that they had not done so. He made a lot of general points and, in particular, he acted the part of the bogey man in relation to the coming period, but he made no specific points of any significance in relation to the decisions which have been taken by the present Government in the past 12 months.

The Taoiseach to conclude.

To say that I am surprised at being called upon to conclude is, I suppose, to make one of the grossest understatements that has ever been made in this House. Deputy Lemass was complaining that we were going away for three and a half months, shirking our duty, as he would have it, by not telling our policy. I would have thought that the troops behind Deputy Lemass would have sprung to attention and gathered in a solid phalanx to attack the policy of this Government and their misdeeds. I would have expected that Deputy McQuillan who, this morning, criticised us for this long adjournment, would have come in and said something about it. But here we are. He never sat through a single line of the statements that I made this afternoon or listened to a single word that was spoken by the Parliamentary Secretary on the economic programme.

I have nothing to reply to on this Estimate. I have carried out the undertaking that I gave last year. The present Leader of the Opposition approved the practice, which I instituted when I was in office before, of giving an economic survey. Even last year, when we were dealing with the Estimates that had been prepared by our predecessors, although we had no opportunity of formulating or putting into practice the details of our policy, I did resort, at least in some degree and to some extent, to the practice that I had initiated, and I think I got the approval of the Leader of the Opposition.

Deputy Lemass comes here this afternoon and sneers at the statement that I had prepared. He called it a lecture and referred to it as a series of platitudes, but he did not make a single comment of any constructive character on the entire speech that I made in giving this survey. I have considerable sympathy with Deputy Lemass. The charge that he made against us as a Government was that we were apparently more concerned with our political fortunes or front than in formulating and in giving practical application to policy.

The fact that the Opposition have no policy, the fact that the Opposition are intense in their criticisms of the present Government's policy, the fact that they are not prepared to help the country to recover from the depredations to which the country was subjected over the three wasted years of Fianna Fáil Government, from 1951 to 1954, is demonstrated by their action in this debate. Deputy Lemass whipped himself into a factitious and fictitious rage this afternoon and succeeded in saying nothing.

Deputy Lemass is a specialist in truculent misrepresentation. He started his speech this afternoon, and if I had not promptly stopped him I have no doubt that his remarks would have set the line for the subsequent portions of his speech and perhaps of the speeches that might have followed. He accused me of having deliberately withheld the figure of the cost of living for last May until after the date of the local elections. I promptly characterised that statement for what it was worth and described it in appropriate language. The figure for the cost of living, in accordance with the practice in the Taoiseach's Department, is submitted to the Taoiseach and I understand that was the practice both when I was in office before and when Deputy de Valera, now the Leader of the Opposition, subsequently came into office. It was brought into me last year shortly after we came into office, on the 22nd June, and on the same day I directed that it be published. This year it arrived in my office from the Central Statistics Office on the 22nd June, and it was brought to my notice by the officers of my Department on the following day. Directions were given by me to release it immediately in full.

Deputy Lemass had not the ordinary common decency to apologise for the attempt that he made to misrepresent my actions—and it was on this misrepresentation that he supported his allegation that I and my colleagues are more interested in our political fortunes, or front, than we are in the fate of the country. He made that charge twice. The only suggestion he made by way of foundation for that charge was the allegation that I had delayed the issue of the cost of living figure until after the local elections. I have characterised that as being utterly and completely and in every respect false. He had not the decency or the honesty to accept that and to withdraw the charge which was not merely a reflection on me but was a reflection on the very competent officers of my Department. At all events, the country can take a line from the tone of the speech of Deputy Lemass to-day as to the type of Opposition which is going to discharge the serious responsibilities which fall upon an Opposition in a democratic Parliament.

When we were in opposition I took the view that there were responsibilities and very heavy responsibilities upon an Opposition and that it devolved upon an Opposition to be as constructive as possible and not merely to oppose. I endeavoured to discharge that responsibility to the best of my knowledge and ability and having regard to the materials available to me. We endeavoured when we criticised, seriously and actively criticised the policy of the then Government, to offer an alternative policy. What have we got to-day?—this master of truculent misrepresentation merely suggesting that my colleagues and I are more concerned with our own political fortunes than with the welfare of the country. He gives no proof for that except the misrepresentation he made about the non-publication of the cost-of-living figures.

You got every Estimate on the Order Paper through. That is co-operation surely.

I do not understand what Deputy Traynor is trying to suggest.

I am trying to suggest that, as far as we were concerned, as an Opposition we endeavoured to facilitate the Government in getting the business through, something which was not afforded to us when we were in opposition.

I am not complaining about that. I think Deputy Traynor has not heard the speech of his colleague and apparently he does not understand what Deputy Lemass accused us of. The accusation Deputy Lemass made against us was that we were more concerned with our own political fortunes than with formulating a proper policy for the country. That has nothing to do with whether you facilitated us in the conduct of the business.

It has something to do with constructive co-operation from an Opposition.

Constructive opposition does undoubtedly facilitate the Government in the conduct of the business but I am speaking about constructive policy, constructive proposals, directed to policy. It is the right and the duty of an Opposition to criticise Government policy. It is also their responsibility, when they criticise it, to put forward alternative propositions constructively. That is the point I wish to make and which Deputy Traynor apparently has not grasped.

Deputy Lemass criticised our policy this afternoon in reference to foreign capital, to our desire to get foreign capital into this country. He made rather an attack upon those powerful companies who are coming into this country and who, we hope, are going to do great good by their project for building the oil refinery. Why did Deputy Lemass take it upon himself to sneer at those companies? What was the point of that? Deputy Lemass went to America in the autumn of 1953, as I understand it, to persuade people in America to invest their money here, to get foreign capital from America invested here in building up this country. Why did he criticise my colleague, the Tánaiste, because he said he was sending a mission to America to try to interest American capitalists in investing their capital in this country? He said that the Tánaiste was vague and had no specific proposals with reference to what was to be done with the capital when it came in here or what was to be done in relation to the Control of Manufactures Acts.

It had been my intention to have turned up the speeches that Deputy Lemass made while he was in America on the subject of inviting foreign capitalists to invest their money here. That he did invite them I have no doubt. That he did mention the question of the Control of Manufactures Acts in a veiled sort of fashion I also have no doubt. In the time at my disposal, due to being called upon to reply to this debate at such short notice, I have not been able to get the texts of Deputy Lemass's speeches on this subject. But I was in the United States at the time and I remember being interested in the then Tánaiste and his attitude towards the Control of Manufactures Acts because I had taken a certain view of those Acts which I have expressed to-day in the speech I made in presenting the Estimate for my Department.

Deputy Lemass says that the Tánaiste was vague and that he should not leave our industrialists here under a misapprehension as to what were our proposals in relation to the Control of Manufactures Act. I think the Tánaiste has already made our proposals abundantly clear. There is nothing vague about what he had to say on the matter. Deputy Lemass was striking at us over here and not even caring what effect that will have upon our efforts to get foreign capital. He then says: "I am not averse to having foreign capital over here. I am not averse to the Control of Manufactures Act being modified in certain particulars."

I would say to the industrialists of this country and to those people whom we hope, with some reason, to induce to invest their capital here, that we have a policy that will in every respect safeguard their interests and safeguard the rights of our own industrialists. I would have thought Deputy Lemass would have said: "We are in favour of the investment of foreign capital here. I went to America in the autumn of 1953 to try to woo these people to invest their money in Ireland, in Irish industry, in our under-developed country. I do not think I got any result from my trip to America at that time but nevertheless I wish the Tánaiste success in his efforts."

That was not the way Deputy Lemass approached this as Deputy-Leader of the Opposition. He said he was not averse to foreign capital and he was not averse to the modification of the Control of Manufactures Act. Had he said in 1953, in the autumn, when he went to America, or had he said even now: "I am in favour of foreign capital coming here and I think the Control of Manufactures Act ought to be modified in the following particulars—(a), (b), (c) (d) and (e)", then I would have some respect for Deputy Lemass and some belief in his sincerity as regards getting foreign capital brought into this country for the benefit of the under-developed parts of our economy.

Is Deputy Lemass sincere in saying that he is in favour of foreign capital? If he were sincere would he have taken the line he did to-day, criticising the Tánaiste because he is sending a mission to America to induce foreign capital to come here, criticising him and saying he was vague about the Control of Manufactures Act, when the Tánaiste had made it abundantly clear that the licensing provisions of the Control of Manufactures Act would be operated in a way that would be favourable to those people who are investing their moneys here and at the same time would safeguard our own people, who have invested moneys here in Irish industry, from being exploited in any way by those powerful bodies of which Deputy Lemass apparently is so much afraid?

Why does not Deputy Lemass come out and say: "We are all agreed on the necessity for getting foreign capital in here to supplement our own people's savings. We are all in favour of a particular type of manufacture here which will not in any way interfere with our own native industrialists. We are all in favour of foreign capitalists manufacturing here for export abroad but how will that adversely affect our industrialists?" Why does Deputy Lemass not say that he is in favour of that and will help us with it? Why does he not say that he has now come to the conclusion that he is not averse to a modification of the Control of Manufactures Act, in order that we may all come together and be all on the one line, in order that we may present a united front to those people who may be prepared to come in here? Why does he not say: "I will indicate now to you that I am in favour of a modification of the Control of Manufactures Act in the following particulars"— stating what those particulars are?

He criticised my colleague, the Tánaiste, because, as he alleged, he was vague. I have repudiated that suggestion. But, even if it were true should he not have said to the Tánaiste: "Let us no longer be vague. This is a policy upon which we are all united. We are all united on that policy. Let us now agree that, in order that industrialists or financiers in America and elsewhere may know where they stand, the Opposition as well as the Government is prepared to modify the Control of Manufactures Act in the following respects—(a) to (e) and so on"? But Deputy Lemass did not say that and I regard that omission as a test of the sincerity of his remarks to-day on the criticisms he made in that part of his speech with which I am dealing now.

Deputy Lemass had the effrontery, in the course of certain other observations, to suggest that the very highly satisfactory prices which we were able to secure for our agricultural exports at the end of last year were due, if you please, to the various steps that had been taken by the Fianna Fáil Government in the early part of 1954. If there had not been an inter-Party Government in 1948, and if Deputy James Dillon had not become Minister for Agriculture, not merely would we have not got those high prices for our cattle but we would not have had any cattle for which to get high prices.

One of the first things Deputy Dillon did when he became Minister for Agriculture in the first inter-Party Government, was to close down a factory in my Parliamentary Secretary's, Deputy O'Sullivan's, constituency in Bandon: it was a factory for the slaughter of calves. By a reversal of that policy of slaughtering calves, by increasing live-stock production, by setting on foot arrangements for the eradication of disease in cattle and, above all, by the imaginative scheme of land reclamation and drainage and the investment of Irish money in the land of Ireland, Deputy James Dillon brought about the situation wherein cattle increased every year from 1948 until 1954; and it was because of that policy that we were able not merely to have cattle for export last year but also to get high prices for them, prices which we shall continue to get.

Many people forget that the prices we were able to get for our cattle last year were obtained because of the link between the price of British cattle and the price of Irish cattle, a link secured by Deputy James Dillon and his colleagues when they went to London in June, 1948, and negotiated the trade agreement of that year. The prosperity of our agricultural industry, which we are now very fortunately enjoying, goes back to the year 1948, and to the dispositions which were then taken to secure increased agricultural production.

Does Deputy MacEntee forget that he repeated in his famous Budget speech of 1952 the statement that appeared in the White Paper produced by the Department of Finance in the previous autumn, the statement that there was no prospect of any increase in agricultural production? The policy of the Budget of 1952 was based upon that assumption. It was alleged that the balance of payments position was so that we could not look to our agricultural exports to help to redress that adverse trade balance and, therefore, Deputy MacEntee, then Minister for Finance, had to take corrective measures, as he described them, in his Budget of 1952, and subsequently.

It was suggested by Deputy Lemass this afternoon that the Fianna Fáil Government were responsible for the increased production in cattle, for the boom in cattle prices and in our agricultural produce generally. Deputy Lemass was deputy Prime Minister of that Government in which Deputy MacEntee was Minister for Finance and Deputy MacEntee's Budget policy and his economic policy were framed on the basis that there was no possibility of rectifying, or helping to rectify, the adverse balance in our trade with Great Britain because, he said, there was no possibility of any increase in agricultural production. We pointed out at that time that steps had been taken in 1948, in 1949, in 1950 and in 1951 to deal with that situation and that the situation was gradually correcting itself and there would ultimately be a vast increase in agricultural production. We said that, because of that anticipated increase, the fears Deputy MacEntee had about the adverse trade balance were groundless. We were laughed at. We were told we did not know what we were talking about.

But we were proved to be correct; and I want to emphasise to-night that Deputy Lemass, who was in fact the leading member of that Government, the economic and financial policy of which was based upon these fallacies, has certainly showed considerable effrontery in coming in here this afternoon and alleging that the high prices we got for our cattle at the end of last year and the vast increase in our agricultural exports were due to the dispositions and steps taken by the Fianna Fáil Government in the early part of 1954.

Deputy Lemass also referred to certain projects which, he said, were gathering dust in the Department of Industry and Commerce. I have heard him make that statement again and again. He did refer to certain proposals in relation to the manufacture of fertilisers. Now, I have not had time to verify what I am about to say; but may I just make this comment, subject to the reservation that it is made from recollection of conversations that took place about this matter: there were certain proposals in reference to the manufacture of fertilisers. I have not had an opportunity of verifying the facts since this charge was made, but my recollection is that some of these plans were subsequently admitted by the people who put them forward to be plans that they would not ultimately recommend. They recommended them originally and, had they been proceeded with, millions of pounds of the Irish taxpayers money would have been lost.

At the moment there are plans being considered by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and by his Department in relation to the manufacture of fertilisers. I think it was nitrogenous fertiliser that Deputy Lemass referred to; one of the reasons for the delay in that case is that we are taking very good care to ensure that there will be a reconciliation between the claims of industry and the claims of agriculture, so that, when plans for the manufacture of fertiliser, which is the raw material of the agricultural industry, are being put forward we will be in a position to ensure so far as we can that, if these things are manufactured here, the effect will not be to raise the cost of the raw materials of the agricultural industry to the farmer. Is not that the proper thing to look at? Deputy Lemass never looked at it in that way. He rode rough-shod over the interests of the Irish farmer when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce.

I made speech after speech on the necessity for reconciling those two interests and I said, and I say again, that there is no real conflict between the interests of those engaged in our manufacturing industries and the interests of our farmers. I referred to-day, in the statement which I made, to the absolute vital necessity, if we are to maintain our prosperity and maintain the prosperity of our farmers, of keeping the costs of the agricultural industry down to the minimum.

The Irish farmer has no tariffs and no quotas. He has to produce by the sweat of his brow the materials on which subsequently the economy of the country must depend—the materials for our exports of agricultural produce. He has to sell that produce in a highly competitive market without subsidies and tariffs and it behoves this Government, and every other Government, to see that the costs of the agricultural community are not increased and to see that the farmer is not put in a position where he is cut out of the market because he is not able to compete in the export markets by reasons of increases in the cost of his raw materials.

Do Deputies on the Opposition side of the House appreciate that? That is one of the reasons why there has been a delay, if there has been a delay, and I do not think there has been any undue delay, in reference to the fertiliser factory. We have to see, above all things, that any part of our policy does not result in creating a position where our agricultural produce may be priced out of the competitive markets in which we have to sell it. I do not think that any remarks made by Deputy Lemass deserve any further comment from me.

Deputy Lemass suggests that we are a Government that apparently has no joint principle or policy. He suggests that we are too concerned with our political fortunes. The country outside does not believe that. The people outside do not believe it. They are satisfied with this Government, that we are acting as a unified body with a common policy and an agreed programme. We are a collection of human beings and we may fail, but if we do fail, no one will be able to say at the end of our term of office, whenever that may come, that we did what Fianna Fáil did. We did not make it a matter of deliberate policy to increase the cost of living, restrict credit and give three years of wasted effort and misery, irresponsible Government and political insecurity such as the country never experienced before.

We will be able to say that we did not deliberately increase the cost of living. We may fail in our endeavours to bring it down but we will be able to say that we tried to bring it down; that we were human beings and that we did our best to bring it down. We will not go to the country, as the last Government went to the country, with a record of a Government having brought avoidable misery and deliberate hardship on a country that was surprised when that Party was elected as a Government to govern it in the year 1951.

Motion put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 49; Níl, 57.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gera'd.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Crowley, Tadhg
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl.

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Connor, John.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll.
Motion declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
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