I would like to second the motion and, in doing so, I want to suggest to Deputy McQuillan that if this committee is set up he and I will put a time limit to it. I suggest we give the committee three months to report back and, if they do not, we will bring in another Private Deputy's Bill and try it out. That will not be any trouble.
I am glad Deputy McQuillan introduced this motion. I am also glad that he made it wide enough to give plenty of scope to any committee set up to cover all the ground and investigate every aspect. We know that the licensing laws at the moment are a joke. We know the members of the Garda Síochána look on them as a joke. We know that no decent Garda is prepared to enforce them. I do not know what happened since February, 1949, when the Minister for Defence, Deputy MacEoin, the then Minister for Justice, asked to have this matter left to him. Apparently the Department of Justice left it as such things are usually left. Nothing was done anyway until Deputy McQuillan's motion was brought in here to deal with it. The present licensing laws are derogatory to the Constitution of this State. I do not pretend to be a lawyer but I have legal opinion to the effect that if those laws were the subject of a decision in the Supreme Court, they would be beaten on the grounds of equal rights for all citizens.
People living in rural districts, unlike other sections of the community, must work on Sundays. We have not yet invented a six-day cow; cows must be milked on Sunday morning. A farmer and his family must go out on Sunday morning and feed their cattle and milk them while the city dweller is in bed. After that they generally go to last Mass. If they dare go into a public-house they are committing an illegal act and are liable to be fined, unless they travel three miles after doing their morning's work. The city dweller can go to last Mass; even though he is only living across the road from the public-house he can cross over to that public-house and drink and he is legally entitled to do so. How can we apply the clause with regard to equal rights for all citizens that is enshrined in the Constitution of the State?
Let me take the description given by the present Minister for Defence as to what was happening in rural Ireland over a period of 20 years. Speaking in this House on the 16th October, 1942, at column 1442, Volume 88, of the Official Debates, he said:—
"As regards Sunday opening, it is only reasonable that the same law should extend to the whole country. There should be some period on Sunday in which trading would be legalised in the country. Everybody knows that there is a certain amount of illegitimate trading in every village in which the publican resides on the premises. The only place where that does not occur is where the publican is non-resident and, when he closes down on Saturday night, does not open until 10 o'clock on Monday morning....
I heard a publican complain that a sergeant of the Garda was persecuting him—not prosecuting him. I knew the sergeant to be a reliable, steady officer. I thought that it would be no harm, if I met him accidentally, to mention the complaint to him, which I did. He said:—
‘Everybody knows that, on Sunday, I enforce the licensing law until 1 o'clock. While the bona fide traffic is on from 1 o'clock to 8 o'clock, I do not run into every pub to see who is in it because I know that Paddy and Johnnie, who have been working hard all the week, are getting a pint. I am not going to follow those people. When the dance hall opens at 8 o'clock and when a bunch of brats come, armed with poteen, take a few glasses, distribute the rest, and then go down to a pub and get a couple of pints to throw on top of it, which sets them mad—these people I will prosecute and persecute so far as lies in my power.’
I said: ‘Good luck to you.'"
That is a statement made by the present Minister for Defence on the administration of the licensing laws and that is the actual situation all over the country. No decent Garda will enforce the licensing laws; no decent Garda has any intention of enforcing them. Speaking on that matter also the late Deputy Dr. O'Higgins at column 1796, Volume 88 of the Official Debates on 4th November, 1942, stated:—
"I would like to see in operation here a set of licensing laws that would have the approval and support of the average citizen, and that would then be ruthlessly carried out by the officers in the service of the State. What is happening at present and what has happened in the past is this: If the police in town or village are to do their normal job efficiently as policemen, the job of preventing and protecting crime, they have to be on good terms with the public in their area. The common sense of the Guards and of the ordinary citizen would regard it as unreasonable to have a person, who got into a licensed house on a Sunday and had one drink, taken into custody and brought before the court. The Guards feel that. As well as the Guards every reasonable person in that area would say: ‘Ah, could you not have let him for a drink; what is the harm in a man having one drink?'
There is no use in talking about the law, since if that man lived in the city he could drink for three hours on a Sunday afternoon and do that within the law. People are not fools. They could never see any just case for that differentiation between the country and the city. The view of the Guards, men of common sense, coincided with that of the average man, and when they saw a man trying to get a drink on a Sunday they just walked the other way.
If the Minister, by sticking to the present legal position, is under the impression that there is no drinking going on in the country or that there is no drinking going on all over the country on Sunday, then he does not know the country. Whether or not the Minister legislates to have an opening all over the country for two or three hours on Sunday will not affect, by one bottle of stout, the amount of drink that is consumed in the country on Sunday."
Those are statements made, one by the late Deputy O'Higgins, God rest his soul, and the other by the present Minister for Defence, in this House.
I do not believe the Minister has changed his mind in respect of that matter. He is a reasonable man. He lives in the country and he knows what is happening in the country just as well as I do every Sunday of the year, in places where there is what we will call a hard Garda Sergeant who seeks to enforce this unjust law—not the decent man the Minister described here. That sergeant goes to Mass on Sunday and the ordinary working man, after doing his morning's work from 8 o'clock until 11.30, goes to Mass. Can he hear Mass properly? His time is spent at the door because the sergeant, being a most respectable man, must go up and sit in a seat. The sergeant must wait till Mass is over, but when the priest turns around for the sermon, three or four of the men go out the door and over to the pub, where it is: "Three pints, Jack." The three pints are filled and Jack keeps a lookout, saying: "Hurry up." The three pints are swallowed down; they are followed by three more; and the round is finished with three more; and those men leave the public-house drunk.
In the ordinary way, if that public-house were open, the same as the city public-house is open, those men could walk in decently, sit down and enjoy their pints and have a chat over them. They could have a second one, and, if they had a third one, they would have two hours in which to drink the three pints and none of them will be drunk. I have had that experience for years. In order to supply Deputy McGrath's constituents with hot milk in the evening—twice a day deliveries—my people have to milk the cows at two o'clock every Sunday. I have seen them come up from last Mass within half an hour of the time of their coming out from Mass and they could hardly see the cows, not to mind milk them.
That is the condition in which this unjust law is at present placing the rural community and there is no denying it. No man is going to tell me that there would be any excessive drinking in the country, if the public-houses were open as they are open in the city. There would not be any excessive drinking, and, as a matter of fact, there is this peculiar circumstance, that I have seen the same team of men come out from Mass on a holiday of obligation, when the pubs are open, and walk steadfastly past the pub and go home—the very same crowd who slip in the back door of the pub on Sunday. I have seen them do that because they knew they could go home in peace, eat their dinner and do whatever work was required, and then walk down in the evening and have a quiet drink, without interruptions from anybody.
That is one side of the picture. Let us take the other side with which Deputy McQuillan also dealt and see what that is. There is a certain section of the community, mainly in the cities, who stop in the public-house until closing hour and then get into their cars and drive out to the country where, under the existing joke of a law, they are entitled to drink until 12 midnight; but if Jack and Mick and Pat, after a day's threshing, who, if the threshing is late, have worked until nine o'clock or 9.30, are caught in the pub after ten o'clock, they are summoned. The joker who can stop work at five o'clock or six o'clock and go to the local pub after his tea about seven o'clock can stay there from then until ten o'clock, and then, provided he has nice company with him, can go out and have a few whiskeys and gin-and-its in the country public-house until 12 midnight.
That practice is going on and if the Minister has any doubt about it, I invite him to my constituency and I will show it to him there. I do not think he would have any occasion to travel further than a mile outside the boundaries of this city to see it for himself. Is that a just law? Is there anybody opposite who thinks it is a just law? The Minister for Defence does not think so, from his statement about the sergeant who told him he turned his back at 1 o'clock and was not going to look at any man going into a public-house from that until 8 o'clock on Sunday evening. Good luck to him. Why carry out this law? Is it laziness on the part of the officials of the Department that has held this up for six long years? When the present Minister for Defence was Minister for Justice, he told us they were dealing with it six years ago. Is it in the next generation they intend coming into production on this Bill?
It is a very grave injustice to the ordinary rural citizen and I would not mind if I did not see in this House an exhibition that made me ashamed of the representatives here. I have here two division lists. I do not propose to read them, but I advise Deputies to get them and look at them. Let them look at the division lists of 17th November, 1948 and 17th February, 1949. Let them look at both. In my opinion, some of the Deputies ought to crawl out the gate outside and not come back—the Deputies who sanctimoniously marched into the Lobbies to prevent the rural people from getting a drink on Sunday and who, three months afterward, marched sanctimoniously into the same Lobby to ensure that the city fellow was not deprived of his drink on Sunday. One law for the city man and another for the country boy fool!
That was done. I have it marked out here so that any Deputy who wants to see it may see it. If there is any of the older Deputies who wants to know where his name is in the roll all he has to do is to go to the Library and look at the two volumes of the Official Reports. If any Deputy considers that it is unjust or wrong in any way to open the rural public-houses on a Sunday and let a man in the front door who is at present going in the back door, and that is all you are doing, why, then, should you come along three months afterwards and walk into the Lobby in order to see that the city men, who have no work to do on Sunday, and have no work to do from Saturday afternoon at 2 o'clock, may have free leave and licence to walk from their own doors across the road into the public-house and sit down for four hours on a Sunday and drink away within the law?
Nobody wants that law. There is not a decent Garda in this State who is prepared to enforce that law except against his will. Why carry it on? That is, to my mind, a fair picture of what is happening in this country to-day. Those laws were made at a time when most of the people—the best-off people in this country—travelled in a trap or side-car. What is the three-mile limit to-day to a bona fide traveller? It is only five minutes in a motor-car. But the ordinary worker in the country has not got a motor-car. The rural worker has not got a motor-car and he has to do his work on a Sunday morning whether he likes it or not. I see no justice in forcing him to break the law every Sunday of the year, and that is what you are doing.
I have heard this matter thrashed out by pioneer associations and others. I would like to say this, that the pioneer associations who are anxious that the rural public-houses would not be opened on a Sunday were very silent when it came to an endeavour to close the city ones on Sunday and they remained silent. Are there members of this House who look on the ordinary rural worker as something that is half savage; something that cannot be trusted; something that is of an inferior nature to ourselves? That must be the opinion of some of the Deputies in this House who walked around the Lobby in the way I have described. I cannot account for their actions in any other way.