When I was last speaking on this amendment in the name of Deputy O'Malley, which proposes to give the board authority to require the Irish Coursing Club to contribute such sum as is, in the opinion of the board, reasonable towards the expenses of the board, I was dealing with the ability of the club to comply with the proposal contained in the amendment. I pointed out that over a number of years——
Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Committee Stage (Resumed).
Debate resumed on amendment No. 16.
On a point of order. May I take objection to the fact that we are beginning all over again? Deputy MacEntee himself said when he was last speaking on this amendment he "pointed out"—and now he proposes to recapitulate all that he said before. Surely, there must be some end to repetition in this discussion.
Is the Minister looking for an escape?
No. I am not looking for any escape; I am looking for an end of a studied policy of obstruction.
That is quite untrue, and the Minister knows it. We gave him whole sections of this Bill, the most important sections, without any debate whatever merely because we knew, of course, that the Minister and the Government could not keep a House and we did not want to reduce the proceedings of the Dáil to a farce by calling for a House, as, indeed, we might do now, because, after all, it is the Minister who is responsible for the Bill and if the Minister does not do the Opposition the justice of admitting that we are trying to discuss this Bill and what is involved in it in a reasonable way, we will show him some obstruction. We could at the present moment, by reason of the failure of the Minister's Whips to keep a House, just call an end to the whole proceedings for the time being. I merely want to point out there is no obstruction.
We might come now to amendment No. 16.
Hear, hear!
Now, Sir, I do not think there are 20 persons present.
Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present.
Now that I have an audience worthy of the speaker——
Seemingly the Deputy's own Party do not think him worthy.
The members of my Party proceed on the principle that there is no use preaching to the converted, but I have now a lot of very fertile soil on the other side of the House.
The Deputy's own Party is certainly showing that anyway.
The soil is not too fertile on the Deputy's side of the House, but he is all right now—Deputy Corry is coming in to listen.
Order! Deputy MacEntee on amendment No. 16.
Deputy Corry took the breath out of poor Deputy MacEntee.
Deputy MacEntee on the amendment. Interruptions are out of order.
I want to put on record, first of all, a protest against the unmannerly suggestion of the Minister for Agriculture. I was speaking on this amendment on the 23rd February when the debate adjourned. I moved the Adjournment and I think it is quite in order for me now briefly to recapitulate the introductory arguments I was then making. That, Sir, was as far as I had gone when the Minister had the audacity to suggest that either myself or my colleagues were enduring the labour and tedium of this debate merely to obstruct the business of the House. That is not our objective at all.
We know that this is a most important Bill. The Committee, which the Minister himself set up, has pointed out that the greyhound industry can be productive of many millions a year, something which the Minister for Finance will not sneeze at, having regard to the precarious state of our balance of payments account. This Bill, as we know, proposes to give very wide powers to the greyhound industry board, but it also proposes to give very considerable powers to the body which has been condemned by the Committee which the Minister himself set up.
I do not propose to go into that aspect of the matter on this amendment, but I want to assure the Minister that it has not been lost sight of and that it will become, I hope, the general knowledge of all the members of this House and all those outside it as to why it is we are opposed in principle to agreeing to every proposal which the Minister has embodied in this Bill. We think, as a correspondent who has written to me from Great Britain thinks, that this Bill is merely an attempt to put a new label on an old body and that what, in fact, is being done in the Bill is to perpetuate the body which was subject to such severe criticism on the part of the Minister's own Committee.
When I was speaking last, I was on the point that it was quite reasonable to expect the club to contribute towards the finances of the Greyhound Advisory Body having regard to the functions of the board and having regard also to the privileges and the legal authority which this Bill seeks to confer upon the club in respect of a great many important matters in relation to which the club has been, in my opinion at any rate, flagrantly lax and, indeed, guilty of a grave dereliction of duty.
I was pointing out on that occasion, and I have not any later figures than those which are available in this official document that according to Table VI on page 49 of the Report of the Advisory Committee, the gross income enjoyed by the club for the year ending 30th June, 1948, amounted to £24,420. The gross expenditure for that 12 months amounted to £16,548 and there was a surplus, before deduction of income-tax, of £7,872. For the following year, the halcyon year of the Coalition, the total income of the club amounted to £20,600 and the gross income——
On a point of order. Deputy MacEntee read out these exact figures on the last occasion on which he spoke. He has given us the date himself, 23rd February. He read out these figures and we have them in the Official Report. What is the point of repeating now exactly what he said then? I do not mind Deputy MacEntee making the same point all over again, but reading out the exact figures he read out previously——
The Deputy had better grow up. Does he want me to believe that he has carried in his mind what I submitted on the 23rd February?
I suggest that the Chair and not Deputy MacEntee should rule on it.
As far as the Chair can recall, those figures were given by Deputy MacEntee on the 23rd February and are recorded in the Official Report.
Am I forbidden to refresh the minds of the Deputies opposite?
I am giving no opinion on that. I have been asked to rule in relation to the figures which the Deputy read out.
One could say, for instance, basing argument on the Parliamentary Secretary's submission, that it would not be in order to remind the House that sometime, I think, in last May the Deputy said that the most effective thing the Minister for Finance could do would be to reduce income-tax by sixpence in the pound.
I submitted a very simple point of order.
And the Chair has replied to the Parliamentary Secretary's point of order by stating that these figures were already given on the 23rd February.
We remember them quite well.
Surely on resuming a debate which had been adjourned, we are entitled to recapitulate in order to put the arguments in the proper perspective? Of course, if Deputies keep on interrupting me. I will be able to find, I hope, a sufficient vocabulary to continue, but if they want this debate to proceed in an orderly way, they had better stop interrupting.
I am not interrupting. I am raising a point of order on the principle that the Deputy is continuing the speech he was making when the House was last considering this matter and that he gave us all those figures.
Will the Deputy quote the column? I am challenging the accuracy of the Deputy's memory.
Does the Deputy challenge the Leas-Cheann Comhairle?
I challenge the accuracy of the Deputy's memory.
Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present.
On a point of order. Deputy MacEntee doubted the reliability of the Parliamentary Secretary's memory in submitting that he had quoted all those figures in extenso to you before. I would refer you to column 950, Vol. 154, No. 6, of the Official Debates of 23rd February in which Deputy MacEntee is reported as saying:—
"...I am quoting from Table VI on page 49 of the Report—for the year ended 30th June, 1948, the gross income of the club was returned as £24,420. Its gross expenditure in that year was £16,548 and it had a surplus, before deduction of income-tax, of no less than £7,872. I grant you, for some reason or other, the picture changed in 1949 because, for the year ending 30th June in that year, the gross income amounted to only £20,000. It had fallen by £4,420, but the gross expenditure had jumped to £20,879 and there was a deficit in that year of £279."
I interrupted, and the report continued as follows:—
"Mr. Dillon: After having paid income-tax of——?
Mr. MacEntee: Yes. Of course, another reason may have been—we had better advert to it before half-past ten——
Mr. Dillon: Would the Deputy mind saying what income-tax was paid in that year?
Mr. MacEntee: £4,294. They paid income-tax to that extent in that year but they paid it to the Coalition Government."
Now the variant is "in the halycon years of the Coalition Government".
"Perhaps that is one of the blessings which befell——
Mr. Dillon: I suppose at this hour of the night any nonsense or insanity will do."
On a point of order.
On a point of order, I am quoting from the discussion on the 23rd February last.
If I challenge the accuracy of the Parliamentary Secretary's memory, I submit that it is not open to the Minister for Agriculture to intervene and interrupt the debate in the disorderly way in which he is doing now.
I have already stated that the figures now being quoted were quoted here by Deputy MacEntee on the 23rd February and I cannot see the point of quoting the figures again. Consequently, if Deputy MacEntee was out of order in quoting them, the Minister is equally out of order.
In making a point of order to you, I have the right to direct your attention to the relevant paragraphs in the Volume, the contents of which were contributed by Deputy MacEntee, and to inquire, if he has said all this, will he be stopped from saying it again?
May I point out that when I spoke in the House on the 23rd February, there were four people sitting in the front benches? I think Deputy Barry may have been one of them; the Parliamentary Secretary was a fleeting visitor; Deputy Finlay was there and, I think also, Deputy Hughes. But I certainly did not see Deputy Belton, Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Morrissey or Deputy Dockrell.
Deputy Morrissey knows the Deputy too well to be caught out like that.
Surely I am entitled to refresh the memory of the Deputies who heard me and to give this information to those who did not hear me. Otherwise, Deputies will not know the issues that have been discussed when this amendment is put.
Standing Orders do not allow repetition and the fact that certain Deputies were absent does not justify the Deputy in repeating his submissions. I would ask Deputy MacEntee to deal with amendment No. 16, which is before the House.
I submit to you the figures which I am again putting to the House are vital to the whole of this issue. The merits of this amendment will naturally be determined by the extent to which the Irish Coursing Club would be in a position to meet any levy which the board considers it reasonable to impose upon it.
That does not bring the figures into order. The Chair has ruled they are out of order.
The Chair has ruled I am out of order in being unduly repetitive. I would point out to you that if I have repeated myself once this evening, it was due to the fact that I have been subjected to a continuous barrage of interruptions since I tried to address myself to this particular matter. However, I will proceed. I pointed out by reading Table 6 and I am not going to repeat the figures except to comment upon them in this way...Deputy Morrissey laughs. There is an animal, I believe, which you can hear in the depths of the night out in the desert and which is called the laughing hyena.
Deputies
He is behind you.
In all your 30 years you never learned order. I did not think I would hear that dulcet laughter in the Dáil.
He is getting nearer to you.
Order!
I was dealing, when I was speaking on the 23rd February, with the question of the income enjoyed by the club and the expenditure which that income had to defray. I was endeavouring to refresh the minds of the Deputies about that this evening when I was interrupted, but I would like to proceed from that. I am not going to touch upon this question of income and expenditure, but I am going to touch upon the earning assets of the club. According to the report, on the 30th June, 1950, the assets, including debtors, cash on hands, investment in Government loans amounted to £8,558, and then they had an asset in Powerstown Park, Limited, that was returned as being worth £1— a very substantial writing down of an asset. I am not accepting that figure and, for the purpose of this amendment and the debate, I am going to use the figure which the committee itself placed on that asset. You will note that this club, which Deputy Finlay— perhaps I will be allowed to quote Deputy Finlay's speech, because it was Deputy Finlay who really put this matter in order. Deputy Finlay said:—
"I must confess that I cannot possibly see the point of this amendment. The only thing that would give any point to it at all is if it were an attempt to tax the greyhound racetrack run by the Irish Coursing Club when no other greyhound track can be taxed."
Deputy Finlay went on to say afterwards that he did not think the club could bear any contribution towards the expenses of the board. Deputy Finlay's speech, which was all directed to that particular point, will be found reported in columns 940, 941 and 942— three columns altogether—and not once was he interrupted.
He did not repeat himself.
I do not intend to start criticising Deputy Finlay's speech, except to say that it was directed to the argument that the club could not possibly make any contribution towards the expenses of the board. If I might be permitted, I am going to resume my own argument on the amendment.
Why not tell the truth and say he was interrupted four times in those columns?
Order!
I am trying to restrain myself; I really am trying to restrain myself. I would hate to air my feelings by saying what I am thinking about you.
Why did you not tell the truth?
The Deputy should be allowed to continue.
He said he was never interrupted and he was interrupted four times.
The Minister should not interrupt.
Is that not true?
That is not the point at issue. Amendment No. 16 is being discussed by the Deputy.
To show how the club puts on an appearance of poverty towards those interested in greyhound racing and coursing, who might have thought that they had some stake in the assets of the club, I was referring to the fact that Powerstown Park appears in the balance sheet at £1. That is not what the committee had to say about the value of this particular asset, Powerstown Park, because I know, Sir—I just cannot put my finger on the exact figure——
Guess.
I am not going to guess. I am going to protect myself against any suggestion that I am misquoting or misrepresenting the position of this very wealthy organisation. I want to get the exact figure for Powerstown Park, which was returned at £1 in the balance sheet.
It is as good a way of wasting time as any other way.
I have it now and I am going to quote the reference— paragraph 113. This is what the Minister's Committee had to say about Powerstown Park:—
"Powerstown Park, Limited, is a private company with a paid up capital of £10,000. The company was formed in 1932 by the Irish Coursing Club, mainly to establish a permanent national coursing ground, and to that end, to purchase the property known as Powerstown Park Racecourse."
This is the £1 asset.
"Previous to the formation of the company, the Irish Coursing Club had held coursing meetings on this property and had paid a rent therefor."
It might not be strictly relevant, but I suppose those who authorised the investment of £10,000 in Powerstown Park were under the impression that, when they had purchased Powerstown Park, the Irish Coursing Club would be able to run its coursing meetings free of charge at Powerstown Park. That expectation, however, was not fulfilled.
"The company carries on the business of horse racing and other activities relating thereto. The shareholders of the company, who are nominees of the Irish Coursing Club, executed in April, 1932, a Deed of Trust, under which they acknowledged that they held their shares in trust for the Irish Coursing Club and were prepared to act in all respects under the direction of the club, as expressed or contained in resolutions from time to time passed by the standing committee. The senior joint secretary of the Irish Coursing Club acts as salaried manager of Powerstown Park, Limited, and in consideration of payment of an agreed annual sum, is entitled, while acting in this capacity, to reside in Powerstown House and to use the lands of Powerstown Demesne, comprising about 130 acres, except at such times as portion of them is required for coursing or racing."
Now, Sir, I pointed out that the paid up capital of Powerstown Park Limited amounted to £10,000. I have also pointed out that this valuable property stands in the balance sheet of the Coursing Club at £1.
I go on to give what the Committee further gleaned about Powerstown Park:
"We have received no estimate of the value of the properties owned by this company, but we learned that a sum of £12,000 approximately was spent over a period of years on improvements to the race course, in other words on grounds in the same property as those referred to later in paragraph 121, in which the expenditure by the Irish Coursing Club itself, of upwards of £2,000 towards the improvement of portion of these grounds for coursing purposes, is mentioned. As in the case of the Greyhound and Sporting Press Limited, and although Powerstown Park Limited appears to be a prosperous undertaking, no contribution whatever appears to have been made by it to the funds of the Irish Coursing Club. Indeed the Irish Coursing Club actually pays £100 per annum for the right to hold coursing meetings on its own lands at Powerstown Park. Profits made by Powerstown Park Limited have been utilised to increase the company's assets."
This £22,000 company stands in the balance sheet of the Irish Coursing Club at £1.
The Report goes on to say:
"The formation of these two companies, both of which engage in commercial activities, and the investment by the Irish Coursing Club in such commercial enterprises of funds arising directly from the greyhound industry, appear to have been outside the terms of the constitution of the club."
Sir, some of the passages which I have read to the House would be relevant, not only to this debate, but to another debate on this section but I am merely pointing out now in relation to the amendment before the House, which is to ask that the board be empowered to require the club to pay such sum towards the expenses of the board as the board may deem reasonable, that the club is a wealthy organisation and out of the profits of Powerstown Park Limited alone could make a very substantial contribution towards the expenses of the greyhound industry board and towards the development of the greyhound industry in this country. That is what is involved in this amendment and, having regard to the facts which I have put before the House, one would think that it is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask that the club should be required to make this contribution. What is indeed inexplicable, what the Minister cannot explain away, is why he should reject an amendment which is so perfectly reasonable as this one is.
It is rather difficult to keep track of all the tables but I should like to consider another asset in this balance sheet. There is the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited. I understand that that publication has been referred to earlier in this House and that some comments on it have been sent to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. So, perhaps, I am estopped from commenting in the way in which I think it would be perfectly justifiable to comment upon some of the articles which have recently appeared in that publication.
You are doing well.
I was dealing with the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited. It, too, is returned as being worth £1. Let us see what the committee had to say about the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited:—
"Apart from printing The Coursing and Racing Calendar—recently renamed The Sporting Press——”
I am sorry. I wish to refer, first of all, to paragraph 109 of the report, in which the committee states:—
"In 1924 the Irish Coursing Club decided to promote, jointly with the secretary of the club, a publication to be known as The Coursing Calendar which was to become the official organ of the Irish Coursing Club. By 1928, this paper was firmly established. The club then decided by resolution—”
Mark you—
"The club then decided by resolution to take complete responsibility for the paper and for this purpose incorporated a company known as the Greyhound and Sporting Press Limited, of which the share capital of £5,000 was subscribed from the funds of the Irish Coursing Club."
£5,000 written down to £1 in the balance sheet of the club.
"On the formation of the new company, the secretary of the club, in consideration of certain financial arrangements made with him, agreed to assign to it all his interest in The Coursing Calendar. Although the resolution setting up the company directed that the property and assets thereof would be held by trustees of the Irish Coursing Club and by the directors of the company, no trust deed in these terms was executed.”
I hope the House realises why it is necessary that there should be some sort of supervision and control over the assets and finances of the Irish Coursing Club, when it hears this:—
"Although the resolution setting up the company directed that the property and assets thereof would be held by trustees of the Irish Coursing Club and by the directors of the company, no trust deed in these terms was executed."
That is, not executed, at least, prior to the date of the report.
May I ask the Deputy where he is quoting from?
Paragraph 109, page 44. The paragraph goes on to say:—
"We feel satisfied that the directors and shareholders of the company do in fact hold the property and assets in trust for the club, but it would seem desirable that the position should be regularised by the reorganised Irish Coursing Club."
That is the body which will come into existence when this Bill becomes law.
I go on and I shall have to repeat a couple of sentences because I inadvertently began my comment upon this aspect of the club's balance sheet by commencing with paragraph 110 on page 45 of the Report, which says:—
"Apart from printing The Coursing and Racing Calendar—recently renamed The Sporting Press—the company prints the Stud Book on behalf of the Irish Coursing Club and prints ‘membership’ and other cards for coursing clubs. The company undertakes printing work for a number of horse racing companies and other sporting organisations, and—presumably in order to employ its staff and machinery full time— engages also in a considerable amount of other commercial printing and paper trading, outside the greyhound industry.”
I hope it will be remembered that one of the things which the House is proposing to do here is to establish on a legal basis this trading and printing organisation which competes with other printers and similar companies who have not behind them the funds and resources in support of the greyhound fraternity in this country.
The Irish Press has plenty of support behind it.
The Deputy had better stop about the Irish Press because I have something here in the Sporting Press which I do not want to open prematurely. Perhaps if I am provoked too far, I may have something to say about the Sporting Press and I may have to ask whether the greyhound owners of this country are going to allow the Irish Coursing Club and the Sporting Press to be run as an adjunct to Fine Gael and to carry on a vendetta for the Minister for Agriculture.
Now, we know the explanation of this. The cat is out of the bag now.
We know a lot more, too.
Now, perhaps we know why the Minister is not going to accept this amendment.
Fraudulent blackmail does not frighten me.
We may know a bit more.
Order!
We also know that the Minister met the bookmakers and handed to them a statement of which the preamble had been drafted by him, a preamble which was an attack on the Irish Press and an attack which was repeated in the last issue of the Sporting Press.
This has nothing to do with the amendment.
I agree, Sir, but if Deputy Thaddeus Lynch and the Minister for Agriculture keep on interrupting me I cannot be blamed if sometimes I course the hare which they raise.
You go off the rails too often.
I was coming back to the point that, according to this report, the company undertakes printing work for a number of horse racing companies and other sporting organisations and, presumably, in order to employ its staff and machinery fulltime, engages also in a considerable amount of other commercial printing and paper making outside the greyhound industry.
"The Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, appears to have been remarkably successful from the outset and the value of its assets including buildings and equipment is estimated by the Irish Coursing Club to be at present at least £60,000."
And the people who estimate the value of the Greyhound and Sporting Press at “at least £60,000” write it down in the balance sheet at a value of £1.
"This estimate includes buildings which were erected in recent years at a cost of approximately £14,000 and includes also plant and equipment said to have cost £18,000. This heavy expenditure on the construction of new buildings and installation of equipment was stated by the Irish Coursing Club to have become imperative when the printing company was informed by the military authorities during the emergency period that it would have to vacate certain buildings held on lease by it in Clonmel and utilised in connection with the publication of the Racing and Coursing Calendar and also by the Irish Coursing Club in other directions. We have ascertained that the proposal of the Department of Defence to resume possession of the buildings has not up to the present been proceeded with——”
I do not want to start discussing the question whether the reason given by the Irish Coursing Club for embarking on this expenditure of something like £14,000 was justified or not—that will arise later—but I just want to draw the attention of the House to the fact in passing that up to the date on which this report was being prepared, in fact up to the date on which it was signed, the Department of Defence has not resumed possession of the buildings.
"The buildings in question continued to be held by the Irish Coursing Club and in any event it was not until some years subsequent to the date of the proposal referred to above that the new buildings were erected at a cost of £14,000 and equipment costing £18,000 installed therein. On the whole——"
Deputy Anthony Barry and his colleagues said:—
"——we have some doubts as to whether in the circumstances mentioned the company was justified in expending on the erection of new buildings and more particularly on the installation of new and elaborate printing machinery large sums which properly speaking belonged to the Irish Coursing Club and to the greyhound industry."
May I repeat that?
"On the whole we have some doubts as to whether in the circumstances mentioned the company was justified in expending on the erection of new buildings and more particularly on the installation of new and elaborate printing machinery large sums which properly speaking belonged to the Irish Coursing Club and to the greyhound industry."
There the committee itself has given the justification for this amendment. We had a property amassed to the value of £60,000 and the valuers were the Standing Committee of the Irish Coursing Club. Where did that £60,000 come from? It came out of the greyhound industry and the purpose of this amendment is to ensure that is not going to happen in future, that this money which, according to the report, came out of the pockets of the greyhound owners, breeders and trainers of this country——
That is not accurate; that is wrong.
——will go back to the greyhound board and will be used for its proper purpose, that is for the development of the greyhound industry in this country. Deputy Barry has interrupted state and said that is not right, that wrong.
No, it is not right.
I did not sign Deputy Barry's name to the report. I did not participate in drafting it, but I am reading a statement to which Deputy Barry himself put his name, and certainly, so far as I am concerned, I cannot understand why having a couple of years ago or so said——
How many years ago?
Some years ago.
How many?
If Deputy Barry wants me to waste the time of the House looking up a triviality like that, I can, of course, do it.
Four years ago.
Yes, thank you. Four years ago, on the 18th January, 1952——
See the lovely smile the Deputy got.
The Minister need not be envious. The green-eyed monster that sits over there should bridle itself sometimes.
We have heard of the smile on the face of the tiger.
I am trying to make a mental calculation. I gather that it is four years and, I think, seven weeks——
That is what I thought.
——since Mr. Anthony Barry, now Deputy Barry, whom I am glad to see sitting in the House as an esteemed colleague of mine, even though he is in opposition, put his name to a report which contains the statement I have already recited to the House and which I do not want to repeat, having regard to the criticisms which previous repetitions evoked.
Having mentioned that these huge sums belonged to the greyhound industry, the report went on to say:—
"We have no information as to whether the Greyhound and Sporting Press Limited, decided on this expenditure or whether sanction of the standing committee for the expenditure was sought. The company appears to hold liquid assets to the value of £13,000 approximately."
That is in addition?
No. That makes up the £60,000, but let us get back to the balance sheet again, this exceedingly conservative balance sheet. One can deceive and mislead by understating as well as by exaggerating.
And well the Deputy knows it.
I was commenting on the fact that the committee reported that the company appears to hold liquid assets to the value of £13,000—negotiable securities, as one might say, written down, with the buildings and printing plant, as being worth £1 in the coursing club's balance sheet. The committee then went on to say this:—
"Although these assets include Government securities, earning only from 3¾ per cent. to 4 per cent., no effort has been made to redeem 6 per cent. debentures to the value of £4,000, held personally by the senior joint secretary of the Irish Coursing Club who is also the manager of the Coursing and Racing Calendar. Here it might be noted that income and corporation profits tax to the amount of £24,800 was paid by the company since 1933.”
I hope the Minister has succeeded in getting the relevant passage in the report—I thought he was interested— because I should like him to turn now to paragraph 111, which says:—
"Despite these liquid assets and the fact that the assets and property of the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, must be regarded as being held in trust for the Irish Coursing Club, it appears that this concern has never contributed any portion of its substantial profits to the Irish Coursing Club."
Mr. O'Donovan rose.
Is the Deputy going to tell us about Guildford Road and Sandymount?
This amendment refers to contributions from the net revenue of the club.
That is not a point of order.
I will make my point of order. I submit, on a point of order, that what Deputy MacEntee has been reading for the past half an hour is the capital assets of this club. The amendment refers to the net revenue of the club and the Deputy should only make reference to the net revenue of the club from year to year.
Do these profits belong to the club or not?
The amendment refers to the net revenue of the club.
We have listened to the discussion about the £60,000 written down to £1 and we are now listening to talk about capital assets of various other kinds. I suggest Deputy MacEntee is not in order.
What I am going to address myself to is that, in fact, the coursing club has never disclosed its true net revenue, or at least the income and earnings which properly belong to it.
I am entitled to a ruling.
Deputy MacEntee is going a little wide of the amendment. He should keep closer to it.
I am not.
The Minister, in discussing this amendment, seemed to make it appear that the club had no means of making a contribution. Deputy MacEntee is pointing out that, having built up this huge capital reserve which is now revenue producing, they never in the past contributed from that to the coursing industry. Therefore, this amendment is necessary and the argument is imperative.
What I am proceeding to show is that if those who control the coursing club made a full disclosure of their accounts to their members, the net revenue of this club would be even substantially higher than that returned under Table 6, because here is what the committee itself has to say:—
"Despite these liquid assets and the fact that the assets and property of the Greyhound and Sporting Press Ltd., must be regarded as being held in trust by the Irish Coursing Club it appears that this concern has never contributed any portion of its substantial profits to the Irish Coursing Club."
In fact, those who got hold of the plant and buildings were not rendering to the Irish Coursing Club any divided upon the Irish Coursing Club investment. The paragraph goes on to say:—
"...this concern has never contributed any portion of its substantial profits to the Irish Coursing Club. Its profits have either been ploughed back through the construction of buildings, installation of plant etc., or invested elsewhere. It was admitted on behalf of the company that its property and revenues belong to the Irish Coursing Club, but it was argued that surplus revenue was retained merely in order that it might later be readily available to the Irish Coursing Club should the latter's financial position decline or——"
and this is the point I am coming to—
"—should the industry as a whole need help."
What we are proposing in this amendment is that these huge revenues of the Irish Coursing Club which have never been disclosed in a way in which those who would read the balance sheet of an organisation like the Irish Coursing Club would understand and appreciate, should now make some contribution towards the expenses of the Greyhound Industry Board. That is what we are contending for in this amendment and I can see no justification whatever for the Minister or any person concerned honestly to ensure that all this confusion as between the property and assets of the Irish Coursing Club and those who control, manage and operate it should be cleared up, refusing to accept it.
I am sorry to have to impose on the House and, indeed, upon myself the physical fatigue of reading through the report, but I think it is essential it be on the records of this House and that the arguments for this amendment which were made so solemnly, so convincingly and effectively by Deputy Barry and his colleagues should be available to direct and guide us in the decision which we will ultimately have to take on this amendment.
We are accepting his advice.
The paragraph goes on to say:—
"We have already expressed doubt in regard to the action of the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, in expending a sum of approximately £32,000 in the erection of buildings and installation of plant, in other words utilising in this manner reserves which must have previously accumulated."
Deputy Barry's comment on that was:—
"We cannot therefore accept as sufficient the explanation as to why the company did not contribute to the funds of the Irish Coursing Club as a whole during a period when coursing might have received greater financial assistance by way of reducing fees and increasing prize money at coursing meetings and the employing of additional supervisory staff."
Those who read the transcript of the evidence given by certain witnesses before the Advisory Committee will learn that one of the most general complaints—and indeed it is referred to here in the Report of the Advisory Committee—was that the Irish Coursing Club did not employ a sufficient supervisory staff of the quality and character which was essential if the sport of greyhound racing was to be kept clear of abuse. The Report goes on to say in paragraph 112:—
"We understand that the company prints the Stud Book at a profit to itself, charging considerable sums to the Irish Coursing Club for the service. The income derived by the Irish Coursing Club from the sale of the Stud Book of affiliated coursing clubs, etc., covered only a fraction of the cost of printing, so that the book in consequence is published at a consistent and serious loss to the club. We see no valid reason why, in view of the sound financial position of the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, and the fact that it was set up with funds provided by the Irish Coursing Club, it could not at least have undertaken the printing of the Stud Book free of charge, or at a nominal charge, to the parent body. We are indeed of opinion that every affiliated coursing club would be reasonably entitled to a copy of the Stud Book, free of charge."
That would be a help to them.
The paragraph goes on:
"We also feel that the company could readily have made other concessions to coursing clubs generally."
Another asset of the Irish Coursing Club which stands in the balance sheet at £1 is Clounanna. In paragraph 116 the Irish Cup meeting is described as the outstanding event in coursing activities in Ireland and is held at Clounanna. The paragraph goes on:—
"At this centre, the Irish Coursing Club expended approximately £11,500 in equipping the grounds, thereby providing good stands and other much-needed public amenities on what are generally regarded as the outstanding coursing grounds in this country. The Irish Coursing Club organised this meeting for a number of years, but in recent times responsibility for the function has devolved on the County Limerick Coursing Club, but on condition that the Irish Coursing Club may at any time resume responsibility. In recent years the meeting, as organised by the County Limerick Coursing Club, has been very successful. Profits acoruing to the County Limerick Club from the holding of the meeting may be disposed of only with the approval of the Irish Coursing Club. Although the Irish Coursing Club incurred the necessary expenditure on buildings, stands, etc., and continues to be responsible for their upkeep, the land on which they are erected is merely held on an expiring lease."
As I have said, this asset is written down as £1 on the balance sheet although £11,500 was expended there by the Irish Coursing Club. I think when all the facts which I have put before the House are taken into consideration it will be agreed that, as I have said before and as I am saying again in order to make my point clear, it is only reasonable that this wealthy organisation, the Irish Coursing Club, should be obliged to contribute towards the expenses of the board such a sum as the board themselves may, after full consideration of the position, deem to be reasonable. The only reason why the principle of that amendment might be rejected by the Minister is that he did not think the board which he proposed to set up would act in a reasonable way. I do not think there would be any justification for such an attitude.
The Minister himself has in fact compelled the majority of the House to accept his proposal that out of the six members other than the chairman whom he is to appoint, four must be members of what I think will be called the standing committee of the club. Here we have the position that the board will have upon it a majority of persons who are members of the standing committee of the club. Is it to be assumed that these four people will act in an unreasonable way towards the club? I think it is not conceivable that such a situation would arise and I simply cannot understand why the Minister should be adamant in regard to this amendment—why he should have indicated that he was not prepared to discuss it. I do not know why the Minister has become so unyielding in this matter. It is possible perhaps that when he drafted this Bill he had not read or studied the report of the advisory committee and that when he looked at our amendment he was not accordingly familiar with the facts which moved us to put it down.
I am now putting it to him that in his responsible position he should accept the amendment and give those who are interested in the greyhound industry the assurance that the profits, the moneys derived by the club from greyhound racing, coursing and breeding—because they will derive a revenue from that indirectly—will inure to the use and benefit of those who maintain the whole organisation.
I just want to say this. I think it is necessary for the record. I believe that Deputy MacEntee in what he says this evening is actuated by personal hatred and malice against individuals whom he conceives to have done him political injury in his own constituency. I believe this is the sole explanation of the disedifying diatribe to which we have been listening, and I believe——
I hope that Deputy Barry is listening.
——that it was actuated by the desire to injure individuals who, he believed, contributed to his political discredit.
This has no connection with the amendment.
I am telling the House what actuated Deputy MacEntee in the diatribe to which we have listened. Now I want to bring the House to the only relevant paragraph in this report which he has taken care not to quote. When all the matters referred to in this report had been excogitated by those who drafted it they came to paragraph 154, page 63, where they proceeded to make their recommendations. They said in the course of that paragraph:—
"As regards the source from which the funds to finance the board might be provided... a few witnesses believed, however, that a levy on the funds of the Irish Coursing Club would yield sufficient revenue for the purpose. As regards this proposal we are satisfied that the reconstituted Irish Coursing Club should apply its funds solely in connection with breeding and coursing, and we do not envisage the board——"
The Minister's sanctimonious tone will not disguise the fact that the Minister has disregarded every other recommendation of this report.
"——obtaining revenue from the club, except possibly in the circumstances already referred to in paragraph 146."
If you turn to paragraph 146 you will find this:—
"That all fees in connection with coursing and breeding as defined by the Irish Coursing Club and approved by the control board, be paid to the Irish Coursing Club—any member of the Irish Coursing Club or of the executive committee to have the right of appeal to the control board in regard to the utilisation or distribution of the revenues of the club. The control board to be entitled to demand out of Irish Coursing Club funds recoupment of any expenditure incurred by it in respect of coursing or breeding, or, alternatively, the payment of an annual levy to meet possible expenditure arising out of action necessarily taken by the board to deal with abuses in connection with breeding or coursing. Equally, however, we foresee that circumstances may arise in which the board might at its discretion decide to make a grant towards the funds of the Irish Coursing Club. Fees paid by applicants seeking licences to be remitted direct to the control board. All fees arising in connection with greyhound racing, e.g., licensing fees, proceeds of levies, etc., would come under the control of the board."
I am not going to intervene in this debate further, because I have made it clear what my views are, and they are not to be changed by the nauseating performance begotten of Deputy MacEntee's resentment of his personal political discredit. It is right that the House should know the source of his vindictive spleen throughout the discussion on this whole measure in the House, and know that he has no concern with the welfare of this industry, and that he has spent his time pouring filth, vituperation, misrepresentation and scandal——
Is this personal abuse in order?
——and reflections on the living and the dead. It is important that the people should know that it is not with the merits that he is concerned. The desire is to prosecute a personal vendetta. But neither his threats nor his vituperation are calculated to make the slightest impression upon my mind or on the mind of any other member of this House who understands their source.
When the Minister comes to read the report of this debate I hope that he will be able to put his finger upon one single argument in refutation of the case I have made for this amendment. It is an old saying: "When you have no case, blackguard your opponent", and we know, of course, what an adept the Minister is when it comes to indulging in personalities. It ill becomes the Minister to asperse my character in that way. Whatever any person in my constituency has ever done against me politically, I have never been guilty of a vendetta. There is no trace of Abyssinian blood in my veins, nor have I associated in any way with those who might in Irish history have flogged the unfortunate Croppies of '98.
This has nothing whatever to do with the amendment.
I am sorry, but, Sir, the Minister proposes to continue on this line of personal attack and personal abuse. I have not said anything except to address myself to the fact that the governing body of the Irish Coursing Club in its administration of the funds has been severely criticised and condemned by the committee which the Minister set up. I have said, and I have repeated it time and again, that the moneys which ought to have been used for the development of the greyhound industry in this country have been utilised for other purposes. I am not going to endeavour to defend in any way, or refute or rebut, anything the Minister says. There are people associated with the Irish Coursing Club who have been friends of mine —great friends of mine politically, people with whom I have been associated during the Black and Tan times. I do not think they have ever found me wrong. I have never found them wrong. But there is, undoubtedly, a situation here which in the public interest should be cleaned up. I am endeavouring to ensure that it will be cleaned up.
The Minister's only rejoinder to the arguments I have advanced has been to try to heap contumely and abuse upon me. Very well, I can take all the ordure he throws, and I can wipe it off my face and my hands will be clean, which is, perhaps, more than can be said about some of the Minister's associates.
I think that what we have been listening to from Deputy MacEntee can only be described as a stupendous performance. It was a display of spurious indignation. I am going to demonstrate now why it is spurious, and that he has no interest whatever in the greyhound industry or what it is or what it is going to be in the future. The hair-raising disclosures and abuses to which he has already referred several times since this Bill was brought in——
They are disclosures in this report.
Deputy Anthony Barry and his colleagues compiled that report and handed it to the Government, of which Deputy MacEntee was Minister, four and a half years ago, and for two and a half years Deputy MacEntee, with power to put an end to this "appalling state of affairs", did nothing whatever about it. In his comment all along, he has done nothing except to indulge in mudslinging of a type which I find revolting. I do not want to go any further on that line, because I think that all of us who have an interest in this thing know exactly what has happened, and know that Deputy MacEntee is trying to settle some private grievance of his own and using this occasion for that purpose.
I am tired of all this. I did not intend to speak again. I do not want to go into the details. The main fact about these Irish Coursing Club assets is that they are there. They were created by a body of men who came together as sportsmen to create their own sport and, on the way, they created this magnificent asset which is now being handed over to the entirely new industry that is going to be controlled by this new board plus the Irish Coursing Club.
I interrupted Deputy MacEntee during the course of his speech and, as I did not want to intervene for any length of time at that point, I now want to make clear what I meant. The main assets were developed, not from funds obtained from Irish breeders, not from funds obtained from Irish coursing events. Actually, they were obtained from English importers of Irish dogs who sent subscriptions to this country to effect the transfer of the dogs to the English stud. I happen to know that.
It is not in the report.
It was extremely wrong and improper of Deputy MacEntee to quote from the transcript of evidence given before that commission. It was so reported, and said here, that the people were asked to believe that these bits of evidence he read out were accepted by the commission as being the truth. The contrary was the fact.
The secret evidence is what you are talking about now.
It is all very well to try to deal with the matter in the rather offhand way in which Deputy Barry has dealt with it. He has repeated the slander, the vile slander, of the Minister for Agriculture. I have no spleen against any person in this matter. I want to say that—but not to defend myself against any accusation that the Minister for Agriculture might make. The Minister for Agriculture has made accusations before in this House and, when he was asked to justify them before those who could cross-examine him, he ran away. Deputy Barry is not in that position but Deputy Barry has taken the Minister's word. I have no quarrel or enmity with any person associated with the Irish Coursing Club. I just want to say that for the record—not to endeavour to carry conviction to the mind of the Minister for Agriculture but in the hope that, at any rate, an honest man like Deputy Barry will give me that credit. If I had a vendetta against anybody I certainly would show it in another way. I am arguing this case on its merits.
Not quite.
That is something the Minister did not endeavour to do and it is something that Deputy Barry has not done. After all, it is quite true that the assets are there. Nobody says that the assests have been embezzled in any way. They are there all right and the moneys are there. But how is it that they have been used to establish a printing and a publishing business and to buy a racehorse?
For whom?
That is precisely the point at issue—for whom? We say they ought to have been utilised for the use and benefit of the greyhound industry—but not one penny of the earnings of these assets, not one penny of the income derived from these assets, has found its way back into the greyhound industry. That is what the report says and it does not say anything else but that.
It said that four years ago.
Where is there any element of abuse in that statement?
There is evidence of insincerity.
I merely quoted what was printed in the report. The Deputy wants to suggest that there is an element of insincerity about this——
Yes. You took two and a half years to do nothing. We are doing something.
I was not Minister for Industry and Commerce. We had to clear up the financial mess which we inherited. That took a great deal of doing and, when we were doing it, we were attacked by the Minister and the others who told us——
The Deputy will please come back to the amendment.
I am answering one point. Surely I am entitled to do that? The suggestion is made that we delayed deliberately and refrained deliberately from giving effect to the recommendations in the report, Surely I am entitled to controvert that statement and to point out how it was that we could not do it because there were other things waiting for us? Everybody knows that the only reason why this Bill has been introduced now is because the Government have no other business. They cannot make up their mind about anything.
That does not arise on the amendment.
Except to the extent that Deputy Barry has raised the issue of why we did not bring in a Bill to establish this greyhound board during that period. If Deputy Barry knew anything about Government Departments he would know that the Bill was probably what might be described as in process of gestation during that period.
Is Deputy MacEntee now going to say that the Bill was prepared by him?
I am not, but I should not be surprised if the skeleton were there, or perhaps——
I think the skeletons are there all right.
Yes, they are here in this report. I should not be surprised if the Bill were already well advanced when the Minister took over. The only thing about it is that the Bill would probably have followed more closely the lines of the recommendations of the Advisory Committee and the Minister has departed from that report in a most extraordinary way. However, there are other Deputies in the House who, no doubt, would like to address themselves to this amendment and I shall give them an opportunity to do so.
As the mover of the amendment, I must say that I am completely disgusted at the attitude of the Minister. It now appears, I am sorry to say, that the Greyhound Industry Bill of 1955 is turning into a political issue of Fine Gael versus Fianna Fáil —and, mark you, not by our choosing. I have no intention of going over all the ground that has been covered or of repeating myself, even though repetition is a very good thing——
Thank God.
Do not forget the wise thrush. Deputy Barry is still as cocky as a cock robin—the man who signed the Advisory Committee Report, "Dear Paddy", and so on.
Deputy O'Malley must address himself to the amendment.
I will. I will forget the question of repeating myself and of going over the ground which has been so ably covered by my colleagues, although repetition is a good thing. Deputy Finlay will remember what the poet said:—
"That's the wise thrush; he sings each song twice over,
Lest you should think he never could recapture
The first fine careless rapture!"
Ní mar a shíltear bítear. When Deputy MacEntee sits down, there is very little that the prosecution or the defence can add. As a matter of fact, it is a wise man who would rise and say: "My lord, the defence rests." As the mover of the section——
The amendment.
I beg your pardon— the amendment. As the mover of the amendment, I have to say that we have not yet found out whether the Minister has agreed to allow a free vote of the House.
He has refused that, too.
Deputy Briscoe informs me that the Minister has refused a free vote of the House. Unfortunately, I was not here for that.
I put it to him, and he refused it.
Even at this late hour, I trust that the Minister will allow a free vote, in view of the views of the different Parties on both sides of the House and now that one of the signatories of the Advisory Committee report is departing from the House and we are to be deprived of his wisdom. If there is not a free vote of the House, then there is no question but that this Greyhound Industry Bill is being definitely turned into a political issue.
Let us go back again, like the wise thrush, and repeat: I said before that anyone can get up here, and "slag" and criticise, but it is a good man who will say what should be done. The Minister quoted me. He quoted me wrongly, of course, but I do not mind that since he quoted me to the best of his ability, and I do not disagree with his paraphrase. Now, the Minister's intention was that this Bill should be politically non-acrimonious.
That does not arise on the Deputy's amendment. The Deputy should address himself now to the amendment.
I beg your pardon. I had a semi-colon after my last sentence. I was about to say that, that being so, the Bill being politically non-acrimonious, and we being in the middle of the Bill, the Minister should now say: "I withdraw it and I now suggest that we ought to have an all-Party committee on this Bill." There is too much "slagging" going on and the position now is that this has definitely turned into a Fianna Fáil versus Fine Gael Bill.
The Deputy has said that on at least two occasions.
I beg the Chair's pardon. I have only been speaking for three minutes, so I could not have said it.
A most important suggestion has been made, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
I was suggesting that, even at this late stage, in the middle of this most important Bill, the Minister—he is in absentia, but it can be conveyed to him by his deputy, the Minister for Social Welfare—should let this go, as they used to say in the old days, to a round-table conference, remembering that we, on this side of the House, support his view that the Bill should be politically non-acrimonious. As his Excellency, Seán T. O'Kelly, once said: “Does it not cause one furiously to think?” Does it not cause one furiously to think if the Greyhound Industry Bill is turned into a political issue?
To get back to the terms of my amendment, I think no fair-minded Deputy could quarrel with the very reasonable wording of the amendment. My friend, Deputy Finlay, has defeated by his logic the Minister's arguments that the amendment is unconstitutional. I am still holding out in the hope that we will have a free vote on this issue. Indeed, I hope that there will be a free vote on every section, so that if Deputy P.J. Burke and Deputy Briscoe disagree with me, or I disagree with them, we will be at liberty to go into different division lobbies. I have asked the Minister for a free vote on several occasions. Like St. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, there has been no reply.
Repetition is odious and I have no intention of going over the old ground, recapitulating "old, unhappy, far-off things and battles long ago." The arguments have been advanced in a far abler manner than I could ever hope to achieve by both Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Briscoe. Let us get down to business in relation to this Bill for the good of the industry. My very good friend, Deputy Carew from Limerick, is in the House. He will agree with me when I say that the present standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club is composed of both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Mr. Jim Frost——
That has nothing to do with the amendment before the House.
——is one of the ablest men one could choose. If he were chosen, even if he were a supporter of the present Government, he would certainly get my support 100 per cent. As a matter of fact, he was a signatory to the report.
Will Deputy O'Malley please refer to the amendment?
Certainly. I beg the Chair's pardon if I have deviated. I would ask Deputies who haphazardly trot in and out of this House without studying amendments in detail to read the amendments and consider their implications. Deputy Giles is up there in the back bench; he is a man who does a lot of "slagging" about democracy and the rights of the small man. I tell Deputy Giles now that this is a democratic Bill and we on this side of the House, even at this late stage, in the middle of the Bill, are prepared to go to a round table conference, argue the pros and cons and come back here then.
I have been very patient with the Deputy, but I must now ask him to resume his seat. He has not once related his remarks to his own amendment.
To conclude——
The Deputy has concluded.
I had intended to speak on this amendment much earlier in the debate and to put forward some of the arguments advanced by Deputy MacEntee, not for the same reason, but to point out that this amendment, or alternatively, some other amendment on similar lines, might be brought in by the Minister on the Report Stage to ensure that if, at any time, it was necessary for the board to require or get moneys from the Irish Coursing Club the board would have the power to do so. I like the amendment: the very first sentence reads: "The board may require the club." It is not mandatory. It merely gives power to the board to get money from the Irish Coursing Club. I intended to go through the report, as Deputy MacEntee has done, in support of my submission that the assets are there, most of them are easily realisable and should be devoted to the purposes for which, I believe, they were intended.
Like Deputy O'Malley, I have been completely revolted by the turn this discussion has taken. Like him, I feel a Bill like this should be completely above Party politics and I say to both sides of this House that the exhibitions we have seen to-night and all during the debate have been appalling. For that reason, I would ask the Minister to consider at this late stage setting up a Committee of the House to go into the Bill. Otherwise, this state of affairs will get worse because each successive stage gets dirtier and dirtier and no progress is being made. It is quite obvious the Minister has no intention of changing the Bill as it stands or accepting amendments that are put down.
To what would the Deputy attribute the fact that discussion on the Bill is getting dirtier and dirtier? I know the Deputy will be fair.
Who is responsible?
Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll on the amendment. We are not discussing the Bill as a whole; we are discussing amendment No. 16.
There were many amendments put down, some of which have been withdrawn because of assurances given by the Minister but, in my opinion, some very important amendments to this Bill are being defeated, important amendments which should be tied up in that Bill so that no succeeding Government or even this one, can ever be placed in a position of being powerless to rectify abuses that may still occur when the new industry is organised. I do not think anyone in this House could accuse me of having any malicious reasons for putting this viewpoint. I am as anxious as the Minister is that a good job be done and I do not doubt the Minister's sincerity for one moment. However, if he is as sincere as he would have us believe, if he is going to ensure that the small dog man, the trainer and all the other sections which he says are going to be catered for, will be catered for, he will, even at this late stage, in connection with this amendment and all other amendments, stop this discussion and set up a Committee of the House to deal with the Bill.
I wish to support this amendment which has been so ably discussed by my colleagues. Like the other speakers, I am very sorry that a certain amount of animosity has developed in relation to this measure. I want to pay this compliment to my colleague, Deputy MacEntee. I brought along a deputation from the Irish Coursing Club to him and to other members of my Party and had I known at that particular period that there was a very scurrilous leading article written——
The Deputy may not refer to any such article. The Deputy will refer to the amendment.
We are all anxious that the greyhound industry should be improved and that any money that can be spared to improve it should go back into the industry. We are anxious to see that the ordinary small man will have an opportunity of participating in the industry and that he will have some encouragement at least by getting some payment for the work he is going to put into breeding greyhounds. In this way the legislation now before the House will have a similar effect in improving the greyhound industry as the Racing Bill had in 1945 in another sphere. As I have said before we must divest ourselves of outside affiliations and approach the questions we discuss here in an objective way. All the money possible will have to go back into the industry for its development. I would not say that all the money of the Irish Coursing Club should be taken away, but if the Irish Coursing Club are able to make considerable profits and if their assets are extensive, they should be in the position to help the industry and to help the board so that the board in turn will be able to help them.
I want to see the interests of all sections catered for. As regards the man who starts to breed greyhounds and the man who races them, the stakes should be considerably increased to make it worth his while to do the work involved. If we do not approach the question from the national point of view and be fair to every section we cannot hope to achieve anything worth while. The industry has a long way to go to attain what we believe it should attain. While the Irish Coursing Club during their day have made great strides, we hope greater strides will be made as a result of this Bill and that any money that can be spared to improve the industry will be put into it.
I did not mean to intervene in this discussion but as a countryman I could not but intervene having heard some of the remarks from the far side of the House. Having listened for five minutes to what was said on this matter, my line is that those who live by commerce should be bound by commerce and those who do not, should not. Therefore, the farmer's son or the country dweller who has a dog and does not keep it in the hope that the dog will win a prize of £1,000 or win a race at Shelbourne Park——
I suggest this has no connection with the amendment before the House.
I submit it has every connection. I say that commercialisation as portrayed by the racing of the dog after the artificial hare, and so on, has a very definite relationship to the amendment and that the statements I have made are relevant to the proposal which this amendment enshrines, namely, the levy of a contribution on the Irish Coursing Club. May I continue?
The Deputy may, if he relates his remarks to the amendment, which deals with the contribution of the Irish Coursing Club to the board.
I believe that the type of young man, or perhaps old man, who lives very often in the poorer districts of the country like Limerick, the constituency of Deputy O'Malley, keeps his dog to go to the local coursing meeting and should not, as a result of this levy which will be imposed on the Irish Coursing Club by the passing of this amendment, have to pay an extra entrance charge. It is notable that, with the exception of Deputy Burke, the men who have thought otherwise on the far side of the House are men who are more likely to be involved in the commercial activities of the dog track than in the coursing of greyhounds in the field. I think this is relevant on the amendment. I know a farmer in County Louth who kept a greyhound and the value of that greyhound was never more than £25.
What has this to do with the contribution of the Irish Coursing Club to the board?
I believe it has a great deal to do with it. If we are considering a levy on the Irish Coursing Club, is not the amount a dog is worth a relevant consideration? Does the amount of commerce that is carried on in the activities of the Irish Coursing Club have its effect? As I see it, this definitely tends towards a commercialisation of an open-field sport. A contribution from the Irish Coursing Club will tend to make coursing more expensive for the ordinary individual in this country and for that reason I would find myself definitely against it.
As an old courser myself, I do not agree with the last Deputy's contribution. If we are to take that to its logical conclusion, we would be in this position that we would not want any Bill at all here and we would not want any Irish Coursing Club or anything else. We would just rear dogs and bring them out to chase a hare. I would go down to County Louth, bring out a few dogs and chase hares in the fields—we would not want any Irish Coursing Club.
The trouble with this debate is that there are too many hares. Would the Deputy please address himself to the amendment.
I just want to say again that I cannot see where any local coursing club would be responsible for raising entry fees if what we have in this amendment did take place. I must totally disagree with Deputy Donegan on this point. The only thing we are anxious to do in this amendment is to ensure that all the money we can get shall go back into the industry. That is all we are asking, and, in asking that, we are helping the Irish Coursing Club because they are going to benefit by the industry being improved. They are going to benefit because what they are going to lose on the swings, they are going to gain on the roundabouts. I hold it is reasonable to ask any body which is the parent body of the industry, such as the Irish Coursing Club, to help the board in any way they can. I am not going to say any more about it.
A number of very strong arguments were made in favour of this amendment to-night, and, in spite of the cheap jibe of Deputy O'Malley about people flitting in and out, I think I heard as much of the arguments on the Bill as anybody else. The arguments made in favour of the amendment would be much stronger if the people on the opposite benches could explain one thing—I believe it might almost convince me if they could explain it—how it is, if those terrible abuses, which are contained in the report, are to be taken as a fact, that, although the report was submitted on the 18th January, 1952, nothing was done about it until now? I think that is the strongest argument against the amendment put down in the name of Deputy O'Malley.
As we go along in this discussion, we get muddled and we lose the hare.
We become unsighted.
I take it that this document should have at least one paragraph in it that the Minister might honour—one recommendation—and the one recommendation which I ask him now to honour is the one which suggests this amendment. If the Deputy will turn to paragraph 146 of this report, he will see that Deputy Barry in company with his six other colleagues actually suggested—not what we suggest, that, if and when necessary, they should be asked to make a grant—that there should be an annual levy.
On the 18th of January, 1952.
All I know is that they signed the report.
It probably leaked out.
A lot of things leaked out, like the secret hearings. I do not know if it was printed after it was submitted to the Minister and I do not think Deputy Tully knows.
It was not in 1956.
What bearing has this on the amendment?
It has no bearing, except this, that, if there is any merit in proceeding with this type of legislation, it should never be too late to do it. I think Deputy Tully will approve of that.
Yes.
I would draw Deputy Barry's specific attention to paragraph 146:—
"That all fees in connection with coursing and breeding, as defined by the Irish Coursing Club and approved by the control board, be paid to the Irish Coursing Club—any member of the Irish Coursing Club or of the Executive Committee to have the right of appeal to the control board in regard to the ultilisation or distribution of the revenues of the club."
That is something which has not happened up to the present, but which we think may be regularised. If this board ever comes into being, it will prevent additional or surplus revenue being utilised in the manner in which it was utilised in the past, extraneous altogether to coursing, and ensure that it will be brought back in the manner which Deputy Burke suggests and as the report suggests. They might be able to give better prizes or reduce fees.
"The control board to be entitled to demand out of the Irish Coursing Club funds recoupment of any expenditure incurred by it in respect of coursing or breeding, or, alternatively, the payment of an annual levy to meet possible expenditure arising out of action necessarily taken by the board to deal with abuses in connection with breeding or coursing."
We agree with this recommendation, as we agree with most of the others. This amendment is only a compromise as between not adopting the recommendation or adopting it. It is a compromise; it does not go that far. I do not know whether his colleague has informed the Minister of the suggestion made by Deputy O'Malley. He is, as he says himself, a young member of this House, and he is rather horrified that the debate on this Bill has developed into what we might call a personal slanging political match across the House, not started by this side and not continued by this side. It was all very well for the Minister to attack Deputy MacEntee when he came in here this evening; but the Minister should not forget that, earlier on in the discussion of this amendment, he construed my efforts as meaning something entirely different from what I had in mind, and I think he knows that. Deputy O'Malley's suggestion is: this Bill is becoming very controversial now, and if the Minister persists in hammering through by a Coalition majority a Bill of this nature by rejecting this amendment, he is going to have ultimately a Bill which will not be satisfactory and which, as we said at the outset, will some day have to be amended, if and when there is a change as between that side and this side of the House.
If you take as long to amend it as you took to introduce the legislation, it will never be amended.
If the only justification for the non-acceptance of any amendment suggested from this side for the purpose of improving the situation is to be the original sin of not having introduced it earlier, why bring in the Bill at all? Why not let the Minister make a regulation and say: "I take over the whole greyhound industry and I will make regulations as from tomorrow." It might be better that way, because we could raise it occasionally in the House.
I do not know whether the Minister has heard what the suggestion was. Deputy O'Malley's suggestion was that we should agree to send this Bill to a committee of all Parties of the House and remove it from this open arena and the type of acrimony that we are having, that the committee should seek the advice of every person possible and, if necessary, receive representatives from the various interests and hear them on the matter. Perhaps they may not agree with some of our suggestions which we believe are good; perhaps they will not agree with the Bill as drafted, which the Minister may believe is good. Will the Minister not do that? Will he put the Bill——
The Deputy should confine his remarks to the amendment. There is nothing in the amendment about sending the Bill to a Special Committee.
Will the Minister not accept the amendment and thereby adopt the general principles of recommendations made to him by the advisory committee? Several pages of the report have been read to-night and probably many more will be read and, by the time the discussion on this amendment concludes, possibly the whole report will be on the records.
I am convinced that there is justification for the amendment in the information disclosed to the House in the report. The report shows the creation and the build-up of funds and their utilisation. I am afraid the Deputy from Louth who spoke was not quite clear as to what the amendment is about. The amendment is to do exactly what he wants, from the point of view of removing from the poorer greyhound owners as much tax as possible in the form of fees. He must not forget, when he refers to the amendment as setting up a commercial side to the greyhound industry, that that is really the purpose of the Bill. The whole idea is, ultimately, to build up a large-scale export of very valuable dogs, which will add to the national economy. This amendment is essential to accomplish that end.
The club already has substantial capital and is assured of very substantial income. The number of greyhound breeders, owners and of those who race dogs will increase as a result of the increase in the income from fees of this club.
That has been said before.
I did not say it, as far as I know, on this amendment.
Not less than eight times.
I have said it? In that form?
I would not dare to say the Deputy has said it in that form.
I was beginning to doubt my own capabilities.
The Deputy is too old a dog for the hard road to fall into that pit.
It is rather appropriate to refer to one another as old dogs on this amendment.
They called me a cock robin.
Who did?
Your friends.
I did not.
Amendment No. 16.
Deputy MacEntee has read out the part of the report dealing with the funds of the Irish Coursing Club. I am referring to their future position. It is very necessary to enable the board, if the occasion should arise, if they are short of money or if they think this body has too much money, in the words of the report, "to levy on them".
That is the tenth time you said that.
Eight and one are nine, according to me.
The Minister is hearing double.
The Deputy now avows that he said the same thing nine times.
No; I did not avow anything.
The Deputy was accepting the Minister's word—a foolish thing to do.
I am beginning to doubt my sanity. The Minister is suggesting that I said things I did not say at all. If he is right, I must be fit for examination in another place. It could also be the other way around. Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll indicated—not for the reasons adduced here in support of the amendment—that she felt the Minister should accept the amendment. I take it Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll is speaking as an individual member of the Labour Party. I am not suggesting that she is speaking for the Labour Party. Deputy James Tully, I think, is inclined to say that, had the Bill been introduced earlier, he would have agreed with this amendment.
I would not have been here.
No, but if it had been introduced earlier, he would have been in agreement with this type of amendment. Deputy Barry argues against it now, although he is a signatory to the document which urges its adoption. Where is the consistency? Where does consistency begin and where does it end?
When the Minister says, unjustly and unfairly, that this amendment has been given birth in the minds of some of us over here—we are all in accord, so when he accuses one, he accuses all— because of our hatred of some person or persons, does he not realise that there are numbers of greyhound owners, greyhound breeders and persons who run greyhounds on racetracks who are also in our minds, from the point of view of protection?
I said last night that there should be equal taxation for all. For what reason and on what basis is this fourth corner of the four corners that make up the interests concerned in this Bill excluded from taxation, while the other three corners are forced to pay all? Will the Minister answer that? What is the reason? They are the people who are getting the majority of representation in the running of the affairs of the board, although they are people who, according to the report, were not considered competent to run the affairs of the Irish Coursing Club. We are here with our eyes wide open being dragooned into handing over majority control of the board to representatives of the Irish Coursing Club. Yet this report said; "If you set up a board, not one of these gentlemen should be on it."
Now we have the Irish Coursing Club still with all its assets, all its income, and with all the potentialities for future increases in revenue and they are not to be asked to make any contribution whatsoever. They are to be excluded, and on top of that, the other interests are to provide all the money by levy and otherwise. What argument has the Minister against paragraph 146, page 60, of his own report? Is he taking the line that under no circumstances will he attempt to justify his opposition to this amendment? I want to tell him that it is not necessary to accuse people of having particular reasons for saying something or doing something but it does seem strange to me that there is no valid argument from beginning to end in the whole course of this Bill for refusing this amendment. It is one of the most vital matters in connection with it. While there may be some argument against the exact wording of this amendment, the sense of it appealed to Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll. Why does the Minister not agree if he wants to end the discussion to say: "All right, I will do this—I will enter an amendment for Report Stage, if not like this, something similar, to meet to some extent the objections to the section without this amendment?" Will the Minister accept that? Or does he think that the suggestion from Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll comes by reason of some undisclosed hatred for somebody?
Do not forget there are more concerned in the greyhound industry than just the gentlemen of the Irish Coursing Club. There are the members of the Irish Coursing Club in the ordinary clubs, and the Bill tends to secure an increase in owners, an increase in the number of clubs all over the country and increased operations and activities. Yet we are not going to make any defence for those people against charges which will be heavier if this Bill goes through without this amendment. Will the Minister just sit there and take all this mental punishment—I assume he regards listening to us rehashing and discussing this as mental punishment? Will he not say: "There seems to be a reasonable amount of persuasion and I will do one of the things suggested either by Deputy O'Malley or by Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll?" Or are we to be faced with the prospect of seeing people forced into the Division Lobby to vote against something they themselves favour? Will the Minister at this stage agree to any of these suggestions?
Deputy Donegan talked a lot about the position if this amendment were to be accepted and said it would commercialise—I think that is the word he used—the greyhound business, but is not the whole thing for the purpose of commerce?
The Deputy has already said that. He has already commented on Deputy Donegan's speech.
Not on that portion. He said he was concerned only with the man who had a dog at his heels, who went out for a day's hunting, and he said he was not concerned with any other aspect of it. But surely the whole Bill, if he reads it through— takes a much more comprehensive view of it than that. In introducing the Bill, the Minister indicated its main purpose. The country had suffered considerably by lack of control, by falsification of dogs in shipments abroad——
The Deputy is certainly getting away from the amendment now.
I am trying to argue as best I can that this amendment is necessary for the simple reason that the board will have to deal with the abolition of all the malpractices which are mentioned in this report. In doing that, it will have to appoint officials, and make certain charges. Up to the present, without this amendment the only income available came from three sources. I say there is a valuable fourth source which would make the board more independent and possibly enable it to enter into much greater activities much more speedily than if the source of income from the Irish Coursing Club is denied to them. That is why I am pressing this amendment.
Does the Minister not yet see that there is any sense in this at all or must we take it that when he gets up—if he gets up—it will only be on a basis of personal abuse, instead of relating his remarks to the discussion on the amendment? I think when we come to read the debate, while some of us have wandered accidentally—with all respect to the Chair—others have made no attempt to keep to the amendment. I ask the Minister to accept this amendment as it is drafted. Failing that, is he prepared, not having accepted the other two suggestions, to say that he will give it further consideration and that the amendment can be reintroduced on the Report Stage?
We are being put in an impossible position by the Minister, if he will not say on an amendment of this nature that he is prepared to think it over so that we can discuss it again on report. If he did that, we could get along to the next series of amendments, some of which do not appear to be very controversial. This, however, is one of the most important and most essential amendments to the whole Bill.
I am sorry, but there are one or two things which, perhaps, have still to be said on this. It is obvious from the speeches which have been made by Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll and Deputy Tully that the arguments here are carrying some measure of conviction. It is unfortunate that we have not been able to convince them completely. I think Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll is convinced that this amendment has merits and she has, in fact, I think, appealed to the Minister—I think he was absent when she was making her speech—to say he will accept it in principle and will bring in an amendment on Report Stage to give effect to it.
Deputy Tully seemed to be in the position that he had a great deal of sympathy with the amendment. I do not see how any unbiassed person, if he pondered over the passages from the report which it was my duty to put to the House, could feel otherwise. There is no justification in ordinary reason for rejecting it. Indeed, the only reason why Deputy Tully could not see his way to speak in a more forthright manner in support of the amendment was that the Bill had not been introduced sooner. After all, we have been out of office for quite a long while.
Not since 1952.
We have been out of office since June, 1954.
For two whole years you did nothing about it.
This has nothing to do with the amendment.
Surely the purpose of discussion on the Committee Stage is to try and persuade those who differ from one as to the merits of a proposal that the merits do lie with it.
We heard what the Deputy said.
Deputy Tully said that he would be prepared to consider this amendment if the Bill had been introduced earlier.
Could Deputy MacEntee get a few of his own members to come in and listen?
The Deputy can bring them in. I am too modest to bring them in. The Deputy can bring them in if he wants to. After all, we believe in the division of labour in this Party. It makes for more economic progress.
I did not know it.
When another proposal is before the House the responsible people will be here to deal with it. As I was saying, it seems to me to be a very flimsy reason for not acting in accordance with one's convictions. I gather from what Deputy Tully said that he had a great deal of sympathy with the amendment and that if it were not for the fact that the Bill had been introduced belatedly he would have voted for it.
Are you going to vote for it? We are all sunk if you do.
In passing, let me remind the Deputy that there is a flour and bread report brought in in 1948 which has not been acted upon.
There is also a Milk Costings Report that we are awaiting.
I would not talk so much about that.
It does not affect me, but there are 20,000 farmers very anxious for it anyway. Has anything leaked out that the Deputy is able to warn me about what is in it?
A most extraordinary argument was advanced by Deputy Donegan who seemed to warn some members on this side of the House out of the arena. He said we had no right to discuss greyhounds at all.
Not much, anyway.
I did not, Deputy.
The Deputy gave me the impression that because I happened to live in the city I did not know one end of a greyhound from another. Let me tell the Deputy that, unfortunately for my personal fortunes, my family were much too closely associated with greyhounds before the Deputy was born and learned a little bit about them. But whether I was born in the city or in the country, I am entitled, as a member of this House and as representing the people of my constituency, in which there is, by the way, a greyhound racing track, to participate in this Bill and discharge my obligations as a Deputy and give to the House the benefit of any experience or knowledge of the facts I may have in relation to the Bill.
It seemed to me rather unfortunate that Deputy Donegan devoted only very little time to the consideration of the measure. He said that one of the reasons he objected to the amendment was that he did not want to see greyhound coursing commercialised. I may not be using the Deputy's exact words but he did give me the impression that the reason he was not prepared to vote for this amendment was because it would lead to the commercialisation of greyhound coursing.
It would place a levy on the sport.
Of course, that is not the argument the Deputy used. The words he did use were commercialisation of coursing. What, in fact, has been the justification for this amendment?
The House need not worry. I have not the slightest intention of stopping the Deputy.
Is somebody talking in his sleep?
I believe the Deputy may be talking in his sleep. It would be better were he to come to the point.
The Chair ought to have courtesy at least. Deputy Dillon was babbling like a brook or a baby and how could I keep my train of thought?
Acting-Chairman
The "Minister", please.
The Minister was babbling like a brook or a baby and it makes it exceedingly difficult for any person to participate in a discussion when this sort of thing goes on all the time. I was addressing myself to the arguments used by Deputy Donegan and I think I am entitled to treat these arguments with some seriousness. He has already said that he objected to the commercialisation of coursing. What is the basis for this amendment except this report? It has been pointed out that the moneys derived from greyhound racing, breeding and coursing, and the general operation of the activities of the club have been used to build up a printing business, to spend £14,000 on buildings, £18,000 on plant, £11,000 on procuring liquid assets and £11,500 on Clounanna. This is the commercialisation of coursing which our amendment is designed to prevent. We want to see these moneys, when they flow into the coffers of the club, used for the purpose of developing the sport and the greyhound breeding industry in the same way as the horsebreeding industry.
The Minister, in the few perfunctory remarks he made on this amendment, referred to paragraph 146 of the report of the advisory committee. I assume I will be in order if I remind the House of what paragraph 146 of that report does, in fact, say. It discusses fees and goes on:—
"The control board to be entitled to demand out of Irish Coursing Club funds recoupment of any expenditure incurred by it in respect of coursing or breeding, or, alternatively, the payment of an annual levy to meet possible expenditure arising out of action necessarily taken by the board to deal with abuses in connection with breeding or coursing."
Then the paragraph goes on to say, and I think it is of relevance here:—
"Equally, however, we foresee that circumstances may arise in which the board might at its discretion decide to make a grant towards the funds of the Irish Coursing Club. Fees paid by applicants seeking licences to be remitted direct to the control board. All fees arising in connection with greyhound racing, e.g. licensing fees, proceeds of levies, etc., would come under the control of the board."
There are two points there.
Acting-Chairman
Was the Deputy quoting?
It is the seventh time he has quoted that paragraph to-night.
It would be unparliamentary of me to say that is a lie. I will just say this is the first time I have referred to paragraph 146 and the record of the proceedings of the House will bear that out. The Minister has said that I have quoted it seven or eight times. That was said in order to put me off my stride, but it will not succeed.
The report says that the control board should be entitled to demand recoupment from Irish Coursing Club funds, and let me say that our attitude towards this Bill is based on the recommendations of that advisory committee. The purpose of this amendment is to provide that the report of the committee, in relation to this matter of allowing the control board to demand out of Irish Coursing Club funds recoupment of any expenditure incurred by the board in respect of coursing or breeding, or, alternatively, the payment of an annual levy to meet possible expenditure arising out of action necessarily taken by the board to deal with abuses in connection with breeding or coursing, will be implemented.
I am sorry, but I am tired and am subject to a certain degree of irritation because of the Minister's remarks. My purpose at the moment is to point out that the advisory committee recommended that the board would be empowered to look for a levy from the club and that such a levy would be such an amount as the board would consider reasonable, taking everything into consideration. That is all we are asking here in this amendment. All the amendment seeks is that the Minister might accept the two recommendations contained in paragraph 146 of the report, that, foreseeing that circumstances might arise in which the board might, at its discretion, decide to make a grant towards the funds of the Irish Coursing Club, power would be given to the board to do that. These are reasonable proposals.
Being quite frank about it and being accused of having some personal motive in this, I will say that I am concerned by the fact that the Minister has turned down the recommendations of the advisory committee in toto, because, after all, one of the things the committee did foresee was that the board might have to make some demand when exceptional expenditure might arise out of action taken by them to deal with abuses in connection with breeding or coursing. It would almost appear that the Minister was reluctant to allow the board full facilities for discharging that responsibility. I do not think there is anything more I can add on this amendment, except to suggest once more that it carries a certain degree of conviction. It also seems to have secured a certain amount of agreement from the other side of the House.
Despite anything that may have occurred earlier in the evening I would press the Minister—of course, any pressure from me is unlikely to be effective—to give consideration to this proposal. I would suggest that, if he is not prepared to accept this amendment, he should introduce an alternative proposal on Report Stage, under which circumstances we would withdraw this amendment and allow the debate on the section to proceed. If he is not prepared to go so far, perhaps he might consider between now and the resumption of the debate the suggestions which have been made by Deputy O'Malley that the Bill might be treated as non-controversial and referred to a Special Committee, where these things could be thrashed out around a table and where there could not be the suggestion that Deputies trying to discharge their public responsibilities are actuated by unseemly and unworthy personal motives.
I myself would be very anxious to serve on such a committee, together with other members of the House, and I think I could say the same for Deputies Briscoe, Walsh, O'Malley and the other Deputies who have spoken on this amendment. We certainly did not want the position to arise where the things that have been said in this debate in the House would be blazoned publicly abroad. We like to discuss these things in committee around a table and to come to a reasonable agreement about the controversial parts of the Bill. I hope something I have said may induce the Minister to change his attitude and to approach the Bill in the spirit in which we had intended it would be approached.
May I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this amendment and, in reconsidering it, say to the House, in view of the consistent arguments he has heard in its favour: "I have decided to meet the wishes of the Dáil in this matter." The Minister was very gracious to me in the case of two other amendments, and I say to him now that, in view of all the arguments to which he has listened, and in view of his greater enlightenment, he should decide to accept the spirit of the amendment. We are here only to do one job——
Obstruction.
We are trying to be as fair and reasonable as we can. We are trying to consider this matter completely on its merits. If he argued completely on the merits of this amendment, not alone would the Minister make his position clear but he would clarify a lot of the ambiguous statements that have been made in this House and outside it. In clarifying a lot of the ambiguous statements that have been made from time to time about responsibilities and about the responsible body we are speaking of in this debate, not alone would the Minister contribute something to the industry but he would vindicate the Irish Coursing Club. The one thing that could be done would be to say that if the Irish Coursing Club are in the position of making considerable profits what better way is there of improving the industry with these profits, or what better use could any other board make of both the Irish Coursing Club profits and the board's profits, than that they should go back into the industry. That is all we are asking for. It is a reasonable request. I do not see anything wrong with it.
I may be misquoted. I have no axe to grind on this measure. Looking on the merits of the amendment as it stands, judging it from every aspect, we are merely trying to improve the industry. We have a long way to go. I should like to see the greyhound industry built up so that it will be worth something to the nation and to the individual. We have not many wealthy philanthropists in this country who will just run greyhounds for the sake of the sport. We all did a bit of that in our young days but, if you are rearing greyhounds, you expect some return. Very few people keep a racehorse without expecting something from feeding and rearing and training it. The same thing applies to the greyhound.
We now have a wonderful opportunity of doing something worth while to improve the industry for the benefit of the individual and of the nation. The only way in which that can be done is by putting money back into the industry. The Minister has often said to me in this House on debates on agriculture that certain profits should be put back into the land to try to increase its fertility. The same can be said here about the greyhound industry. We could speak for days and days on this matter but I appeal to the Minister——
A day, did the Deputy say?
I appeal to the Minister to consider this question again. I appeal to him to end this discussion on the amendment and to say: "I am going to consider this amendment on the Report Stage. I shall try to meet the wishes of the people of the country."
The Deputy is on the wrong side of the House.
The day will come when I shall be on the right side again. Deputy Tully is trying to draw me away from this very important amendment.
I am trying to bring the Deputy back to it.
It is well to have a light heart.
May I again appeal to the Minister to consider this amendment on the Report Stage? Can the Minister not say to the House that he will do that?
May I say to the Deputy that I still believe in parliamentary democracy—and I have had no bigger strain on my belief before.
Even when you were a Blueshirt?
Deputy Burke is in possession.
Being another believer in parliamentary democracy, I appeal to the Minister's good sense of judgment to consider this very fair amendment. For the life of me, I cannot see where this amendment will injure or take any honours or power from the Irish Coursing Club. If I thought for a moment it would injure a body with which I have been associated for a long time I would not appeal here to the Minister to put this matter right. However, I am fully convinced that it is in the national interest to do so, otherwise we should never have put down this amendment. We have gone into all these things completely devoid of any personal bitterness towards any section or individual, good, bad or indifferent. We had to consider everybody concerned with the greyhound industry. I have argued here for other aspects of the industry and will continue to do so according as the debate proceeds. If we fail to recognise the individual rights and the individual responsibilities of each section of the greyhound industry then we are not doing our job properly. I am as deeply concerned about the man who has——
One greyhound as ten.
——one greyhound as I am about the man who has 45. I am not forgetting the man who owns a track, or any other owner, the betting man or anybody else concerned with the industry. If we do not approach the matter from that aspect there is no use in our standing up here and trying to improve this Bill. I said to the Minister when I was speaking on this Bill before that I was displeased that this evidence should have been given in private——
That has nothing to do with the amendment.
I am only trying to relate my argument——
To half-past ten.
"Until" is the word.
The Deputy has ten minutes to go yet.
If I were not interrupted so frequently, I might have finished sooner.
Hear, hear!
Another 40 seconds are now gone.
Order!
We thought some of the Deputies were not sufficiently briefed.
If Deputy Burke has nothing further to say——
I have, but it is very difficult for me to continue because of the continual rude interruptions. This is a very serious amendment.
What is it about?
Order!
Has Deputy O'Higgins not got a copy of the amendment?
I am not sure which one the Deputy is talking about.
Interruptions must cease.
Section 26, amendment No. 16.
What does that say?
I will tell you now in a minute.
It is at the top of the page.
The amendment reads:—
"(5) The board may require the club to contribute towards the general expenses of the board to assist it in fulfilling its functions under this Act such proportion of the net revenue of the club as in the opinion of the board is reasonable."
What does net revenue mean?
Order! There must be no cross-examination.
I am not in court at the moment. I am merely in the Dáil, but I suppose the Deputy has to have his innings. I say again, in all seriousness, that I cannot understand why the Minister cannot change his mind. We have tried to enlighten him and help him in any way we can.
The Deputy has said that on at least five occasions.
We will help him in every way possible. The people interested first tried to put this greyhound industry on its feet in 1916—that was the Irish Coursing Club—and they went a long way towards doing that. We have now the first opportunity offered of trying to improve the work they did, and the only way to try to improve anything in my estimation is by co-operation. We have passed an Act here to help many an industry and many an individual, from Social Welfare Acts to other Acts. We have tried to help the farmers, the industrialists and various others. I do not see why we cannot approach this problem as the Dáil should approach it, namely, by trying to put more money back into the industry. I do not see why we should not try to eliminate the suspicions that have been cast from time to time on the Irish Coursing Club. I hope the Minister will say to the House: "I will consider this amendment and I will introduce an amendment on the Report Stage to meet——"
He is back again on the old theme.
The Deputy has said that on many occasions. I do not think he should say it again.
I am grateful for the Chair's indulgence. I am so anxious about the greyhound industry, may I claim the Chair's indulgence for a few moments more——
Six minutes!
——to make an appeal——
To the Minister to reconsider it.
——to the House: if there is anything contentious in this Bill, could we not consider it away from the atmosphere of the House? Could we not have a select committee of the House to consider the whole Bill again?
That cannot be argued on this amendment.
May I say that I am trying to get over the contentious points that have been raised in this Bill, according to the Minister? The only way I can see of getting over them is by supporting the other Deputies who have suggested from time to time here to-night that we should have a select committee of the House to go into the Bill, a committee at which we would be free from interruptions and free to express our own personal opinions, in an effort to find out what is the best we can do and at which we could ask ourselves whether what we are doing is in the best interests of the industry. Are we fair to the Irish Coursing Club? Are we fair to the Irish greyhound breeders? Are we fair to the racetrack owners? Are we fair to the bookies? I have listened to the debate since it started. I must say it is very hard on any Minister listening to a discussion like this in committee. If we were sitting in a select committee around a table, I am sure we would eliminate many of the misunderstandings that have arisen here.
There is another aspect of this matter. It was alleged on one or other side of the House to-night that we are making a Party issue out of this. There are as many people on this side of the House associated with the Irish Coursing Club and its governing body as there are on the other side. The Irish Coursing Club is not by any means the bailiwick of any political Party, one way or the other, and those who try to make it so should not do so. Our only concern here is to be fair to everybody, and the only way I can see that will ensure our being fair to everybody is if the Minister, if he cannot consider the amendment proposed or accept the amendment, will at least accept my suggestion to have a select committee of the House. We have had select committees on various other Bills from time to time.
The Deputy may not discuss the question of select committees on this amendment. There is nothing in the amendment dealing with select committees.
No, but I claim the Chair's indulgence again.
It is plenary by this time.
I am merely trying to relate my remarks to this amendment and help the Minister in every way I can. In trying to help the Minister to do the best for the industry, I am merely making all the suggestions I can so that he may bring in a Bill in relation to which future Ministers for Agriculture and future Deputies, when we have passed on, will be able to say that the present Minister for Agriculture, Deputy James Dillon, introduced a very fine Bill when he was in office. I think that the Minister should——
Reconsider the matter all over again.
That is Deputy Burke's piece. The Minister should not say it.
The Minister will not consider the amendment, but at least he can——
Reconsider the matter all over again.
Order.
I have heard that said 42 times to-night and, for variety sake, I am trying to introduce a new note.
You could modify it. Could you not do that?
The Minister could modify it.
I am not satisfied yet, because I feel that the Minister—
Might reconsider it all over again.
——will change his mind.
Surely, it is time to say it once again.
There is no necessity. This is a very serious——
Deputy Burke has convinced the Minister now.
This is a very serious position for the industry.
I asked the Deputy: what does he wish the Minister to do? Is it to reconsider it all over again?
That is the fourth time the Minister has said that. That is repetition.
I ask the Minister to accept the amendment or accept the other suggestion to have a committee of the House.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 13th March, 1956.