Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Mar 1956

Vol. 155 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When I was speaking last night I had reached the point where I said the time had come to draw attention to the problem in relation to our exports versus imports. While our exports of industrial products show an increase of roughly 25 per cent., it may be said that the volume of our industrial exports is so small that 25 per cent. may not make a difference. Nevertheless, it is interesting to realise that there is an increase. The whole problem is in connection with the volume of our agricultural exports.

We, in the Labour Party, are convinced that at this stage it is essential not alone for the Government side of the House but for every Party on every side of the House to realise that unless agriculture is placed in its rightful position in this country then, while we are speaking here, the problems which may be aggravated at times outside will naturally increase to such an extent that, financially and economically, our country will suffer most severely. If we on this side of the House have our problems and responsibilities it must be said that the agricultural community, too, have their responsibilities to the nation.

In the course of this discussion, some Deputies have been drawing particular attention to the volume of our imports. Let it be said, however, that included in this problem of an adverse trade balance confronting us is quite a large amount of money for agricultural machinery. It is pleasing to know that the agricultural industry is being mechanised to a greater extent, provided that the mechanisation will tend to increase production. Those of us on the Labour Party benches consider that if the amount being allocated for the importation of agricultural machinery is included in our adverse trade balance we must be realistic in our approach and say that that, in itself, is sensible spending because the money being provided is for machinery which, naturally, must be classified as of capital value.

In the course of the past week or so, in answer to a question here, we were told that the number of people employed in agriculture in this country had dropped, within the past year, by about 4,000. If the members of this House will take notice of the various ploughing matches throughout the country they will see that, while the number of tractors has greatly increased, the number of horses engaged in such contests has decreased.

With the advantages offered to agriculture and the inducements offered in the way of the encouragement of the provision of machinery for the advancement of agriculture, surely we are entitled to ask what has happened. Surely we are entitled to say that there is something seriously wrong when, in contrast to the increase in the volume of our industrial production, agriculture is lagging behind so much.

I believe, as the other members of the Labour Party believe, that one of the faults can be traced to this very Assembly. Rightly or wrongly, all over the years, it has been the habit of members from both sides of the House, in order to outbid other Parties and to secure added votes from the agricultural community, to offer inducements by way of grants of all sorts. Let us, for one moment, consider that last year the amount of money paid out in hard cash by way of grants came to about £12,000,000. We of the Labour Party realise the necessity of giving the utmost support to agriculture but surely we must be prepared to admit that many of the grants that have been given out have been given for the purpose of securing votes.

Many of the millions of pounds that have been paid out would have been better utilised to encourage production by way of a guaranteed minimum price or by way of an added inducement such as a bonus for increased production, over and above a set figure. If we are going to continue our attitude of giving a couple of pounds here and there for the erection of a couple of piers and a few pounds somewhere else for the putting in of a water supply or the building of a hay shed, we should remember that we have been doing that for years without giving any return to the community in the way of increased production.

Whether the Opposition likes it or not, I, as a member of the Labour Party, am facing this problem as we will all have to face it. £40,000,000 has been given out under the Land Project Act. That amount of money must be paid back, plus a tidy amount by way of interest. That money is being utilised, I hope, for the fertilisation and betterment of the land of this country but it cannot be forgotten that the whole community must pay it.

While we are severe on the industrial section of the community—and I am prepared to be as severe on the industrial community as anybody else —if at any time they think it necessary, for the purpose of securing higher dividends, to keep production lower than the demand, we must also be prepared to speak plainly to any other section of the community which we believe has a vital interest in the country but which has, too, a vital responsibility to the nation as a whole.

Whether it be this Government, some past Government, or some future Government, that are concerned, they must get away from these attempts to make paupers of the rural section of the community through the method of giving them small grants. Sooner or later they must come to the time when they will have to put into operation a policy which will give to the rural community a true sense of values, which is badly needed in the rural Ireland of the present time, and which will give to the community generally a better return. Until we come to such a stage we know that, no matter how we may talk about increasing production, we cannot increase our agricultural exports and until we can do that we must admit the complete failure of national Government here.

It is a terrible thing to realise that some commodities can be brought in from as far away as New Zealand and sold here, without subsidy, in the home market, at a price lower than commodities produced at home and subsidised. I would appeal to members of the Opposition, that no matter what their attitude may be towards the policy of the Government, it is essential for them to approach this problem, which is so important to the country as a whole, in a national manner. We know that, in order to achieve prosperity, our exports must increase. We know also that no matter how we may expand exports in the industrial field these products will be going into markets where the competition is much more keen from the industrial point of view. We know that from the viewpoint of agriculture a wide field of markets is open to us.

But the tragedy of the whole matter is that, when we hear Deputies getting up here and drawing attention to the fact that prices are not high enough, that the prices of wheat, barley and oats are too low, we know at the same time that it is the misfortune of rural Ireland that while people want an increase in price they are not interested in increasing the volume of agricultural produce put on the market. That is what is happening in this country to-day.

I do not think that is correct.

I am saying that it is correct. The dairy farmers from Cork paraded here in Dublin within the last week or two. That is their own business but I know that many of these people who are looking for a higher price for their milk keep milch cows which are only giving from 250 to 300 gallons. If you ask these people to step up their production to put on the market they will say that you are a lunatic or a Bolshie who is looking for their land.

The fact is that we have been advising the industrial manufacturer to increase his production. I have been as severe on the industrialist as I have been on anybody else but the industrialists have been doing their best to increase their output to the greatest possible extent. That means that they are not only supplying the home market but that they have a surplus which they are trying to put on the export market. We know also, that, as far as agriculture is concerned, although we have 12,000,000 acres of arable land in this country, there are people in Dublin and Cork and other cities who are not able to get as much as they want of our agricultural produce. No matter what Deputy Aiken may say about the one shilling per gallon for milk, the farmer must realise that if he produces two gallons of milk instead of one gallon, he will make more money. Until Deputies and farmers realise that we must get into the export market with our agricultural produce, there cannot be any real prosperity in this country.

Politics will not increase the price of agricultural produce and politics will not put into the pockets of the working people in this country more money to provide themselves with the necessities of everyday life as far as agricultural items are concerned; but if we could face the economic outlook without the political wangling and tangling, it would help the farmer to remember that the State is willing and determined to assist him. We know that the majority of the Irish people have a sound, sane philosophy of life. If they are prepared to add to that the incentive of increased production and forget a little of the political wangling and tangling that has been going on here for the last 30 years, the community as a whole would be far better off and the farming community would be even better off than it is at the present time.

In relation to this whole problem we cannot for a moment leave out the terrible national sore of emigration. Speaking last night, I tried to concentrate on the necessity of realising that there are roughly 70,000 or 71,000 people unemployed. But it is useless for us just to pay lip service to that if we are going to admit that, no matter what Government may be in power, emigration is going to continue—enforced emigration as distinct from voluntary emigration. We all know that some people may be anxious at any time to travel; that is their own business. But we have a duty towards the unfortunate people who, through economic necessity, are compelled to emigrate. We say to the Government that it is essential in the period of time that is left to us that we strive to secure, by way of increased industrial and agricultural production, that the terrible blight of young men and young women having to leave their country and go abroad is remedied. We know it is impossible, even in a term of 20 years, to hope that we could get a big slice cut off it, but we must not waste any time in seeing that, not alone is unemployment brought down to a lower figure, but that emigration is also reduced.

Speaking for the Labour Party, I cannot say that I could for a moment agree with the policy of Fianna Fáil in relation to emigration. They may say that emigration is at its highest level when the inter-Party Government is in power; whether that is correct or not, I do not mind. While I do not usually waste time giving quotations from any member of this House, it is essential at times that we make clear, not alone to this assembly, but to the country as a whole, where we stand in relation to all Parties. Speaking in this House on the 19th October, 1939—Volume 77, column 866 —a prominent Minister of the then Fianna Fáil Government is recorded as having said:—

"I think it would be a very unwise thing for this Government and for the people of this country to accept as a duty the task of providing employment for everybody who chooses to come back to this country now."

Surely, when Deputy MacEntee, who at that time was Minister for Industry and Commerce, wished to make it so clear in such words that we should not have any responsibility towards unfortunate Irishmen, who at that time were anxious to come back rather than wear the uniform of a British nation— wear the uniform of a country at that time going into a war—it must be admitted that one of the most damnable statements ever made in this House in relation, not alone to emigration, but to the return of Irish exiles, was that statement. I do not believe in that policy. We consider that, in co-operation with the other Parties in the inter-Party Government, our approach to that problem will be completely different from that which led a member of the Government in 1939 to make such a statement.

It is strange that, even during the course of this debate when members of the Opposition are belabouring us over the increased cost of living, introduced as they say, by these levies, one of their ablest exponents—one of the ablest men they have, as we all know —seems to take a different line. I am glad he is in the House because this matter and this discussion is of such importance to some of us that we are most anxious to try and get the clear-cut views of people, irrespective of politics. Is it correct that Deputy Lemass's view is:—

"It must be said, however, that in present circumstances any rational determination of priorities would put increases in non-productive public services well down the list."

Apparently it is. If that is so, are we not forced back to the position of asking what is our position in relation to non-productive public services? Do they classify social welfare benefits as such? Do they say to the people that in present circumstances such benefits cannot be given to the people—that they must be far down on the priority list? If they do, is it not quite clear that the road between the Opposition and between ourselves is widening time after time because, while we plead for the unemployed man, while we strive for increased production either in industry or agriculture, we also say that each Party, whether in Government or in Opposition, is bound by the Christian, moral duty of seeing that no hardship shall be inflicted on those who, of necessity, must depend on what has been termed by Deputy Lemass as one of the items of the least productive public services? It is because we are convinced of the necessity of providing for these people that we strive to increase the volume of our exports and the number of people in employment, industrially or otherwise, by providing the extra money to secure for these people the right of enjoying a decent life. It is on that our support to this Government is given.

Deputy Corry—I notice he is missing —complained last night about the price of razor blades. Probably he is getting a few now before prices go up. Deputy Corry spent a lot of time last night complaining about the increased cost of living owing to the various items which are included in the taxes. The view of Deputy Lemass, as stated in Mallow recently, was that the taxes raised under a Fianna Fáil Government would be those which would tend to reduce the consumption of non-essential imported goods. If that is so, is it not clear that Deputy Lemass agrees with us? Is it not correct to say that included in the list of commodities about which we have been hearing so much for the past few days there is a certain number which must be classified as non-essential goods imported into this country? Deputy Lemass agrees with us in that respect. Therefore, why should we have to listen to so many divergent views from the members of his own Party?

What about the £5,000,000 for wheat?

The tragedy of the whole situation is that politics seem to divide every Party to such an extent that we are going to continue the attitude that anything we do must be wrong and anything you do must be right. There is bound to be a certain element of right in the views expressed both by the Government and the Opposition. A period of 35 years has now elapsed since we had a certain situation in this country and the sooner we realise that we cannot expect the people to live on the glories of the past and the sooner we realise our duty towards providing the people with the wherewithal to meet the cost of living now and in the future the better. The sooner we approach the economic problems confronting us in that respect, the better for ourselves as Party men and the people throughout the country.

In my opinion, a false impression is being purposely conveyed to the people that the imposition of these levies will mean an increase in regard to every one of the items procured on the home market. It is well to let the public know that there is no justification for the home manufacturer saying that because there is a levy on the imported article he will increase his price.

In respect of a large number of the items on the list, the home manufacturer was able to put them on the market up to the past few days at a given price and nobody can say that the taxes levied on the imported articles can affect the price on the home market. However different our approach to these over-all problems may be, it is time we endeavoured to stop trying to gull the people. It is only natural that our approach to all these problems should be coloured by the different political outlooks of the various Parties, but we ought, at least, to be at one in trying to hammer out a constructive policy and to get people outside to understand that the taxes imposed on foreign imported articles will, in the first place, mean increased production of home-manufactured articles which will give increased employment and that there is no justification, as some people are trying to suggest, for the belief that the home manufacturer can now reap the reward of increased prices as a result of the tax on some of these imported commodities.

Mr. Lemass

The Government is not to be criticised for at long last doing something about the rapid deterioration in the balance of payments position. They are to be criticised because the measures they have announced are ineffective and inadequate and because they have given no indication of having any idea of how the position can be permanently rectified. They are also to be criticised, and will be criticised, because by their own policy and many ministerial statements during the course of the past year or so they have greatly aggravated the problem with which they are now trying ineffectually to deal.

This country has had a deficit in its international payments in every year since the end of the war. In some years it was a considerable deficit and in others not so considerable. There have been only two occasions upon which the situation appeared to be getting out of hand, requiring immediate action by the Government. One was in the last year of the first Coalition, in 1951, and the other is now.

The situation in 1951 was serious enough but not quite so threatening as the situation now because there were international circumstances of a temporary character then operating which do not exist now.

The Minister in the course of his speech in this debate said that the position which is developing is one that no Government could ignore or fail to deal with. The most interesting feature of the debate so far has been the marked contrast between the speeches made by members of the Government now and those they made when the Fianna Fáil Government in 1951 was trying to rectify a similar situation. On that occasion they did not appear to realise that there was such a problem as we contended existed in relation to our balance of payments. They scoffed at the whole idea. They denied there was any need to take action and that there was any problem which the Government could not ignore.

If there is any widespread public misunderstanding about the gravity of the situation, it is because of the attitude they took then, because of the recollection of the campaign that they conducted throughout the country to disparage the Government then in office and to defeat the efforts it was making to cope with the situation with which they are now faced. When in 1952, the Fianna Fáil Government tried to handle a similar situation, we got little help from any members of the Government in getting public understanding of the need for action. We got, on the contrary, continuous assertions from presumably responsible leaders of the Parties now in the Coalition that there was no need for action; that there was no problem to be dealt with and even that what was happening—the growth in the deficit in the balance of payments—was, in fact, something that we should welcome.

On that occasion the present Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, scoffed at the suggestion that the country was spending more than it could afford, more than its production would support. He said, as reported in the Irish Times on the 9th June, 1952:—

"Of all the most ludicrous and inappropriate catchwords which have been produced in the economic debates of this last year, none is more irritating or less justified than the suggestion that we are living beyond our means."

Deputy McGilligan, who was then regarded as the financial expert of the Coalition groups, was reported in the Press on the 10th May, 1952, as saying: "It is the height of nonsense to say that the country is living beyond its means."

Deputy Norton, the present Tánaiste, speaking in the Dáil as reported in Volume 127, column 603, said:—

"We are told that we are consuming too much, that we are eating too much, that we are wearing too much clothes, and that we are enjoying a standard of living such as we ought not to aspire to—that, generally speaking, we are living beyond our means."

He went on to add, at column 609:—

"If anybody believes in these theories on economics, he is welcome to them, but I think that they are the economics of the mentally deficient."

The present Minister for Finance during the course of the election campaign, as reported in the Leinster Leader, described the balance of payments as a fetish, on the altar of which the employment of many of our people was being sacrificed.

It is a good thing that members of the Government have awakened to economic realities even if they do not know what to do about them and even if the actions they are proposing to the Dáil are suggestive of panic. It is a good thing that the public of this country should be awakened to economic realities also. Will the Minister for Finance, who says that the present position is one that no Government could ignore or fail to deal with, say that the position that arose in 1951, the similar position, was one which no Government could ignore or fail to deal with? The actions taken by the Fianna Fáil Government then were denounced as cruel, unjust and unnecessary, but they put the position right, and when the present Government came into office in 1954 they were able to record that the deficit in the balance of payments was the lowest in any year since the war. Have they any hope that the measures they are taking now will be equally effective?

I have said that the proposals of the Government in relation to this situation are inadequate and ineffective. There was in our visible trade last year a deficit of £94,000,000. Our imports exceeded our exports by that amount. There was, according to the Minister's calculation, a net deficit, taking all items into account, of not less than £35,000,000. On his own admission the sum total of his proposals here will, if all his expectations are realised, be a reduction of imports by about £7,000,000 and if the terms of trade turn against us this year, as he expects, it is not impossible that the deficit in 1956 will not be less than it was in 1955 and may be more.

Is the Government satisfied that the measures they have proposed to the Dáil, these 68 new duties which they have imposed, will be adequate to deal with the situation? Have they any other proposals to make, any more constructive ideas to put before the House for its consideration? They hope, by these numerous duties, to reduce the value of our imports by £7,000,000. During last year we imported £10,000,000 worth of wheat, barley and other cereals, and £2,000,000 worth of sugar, that could have been produced here. Has the Minister or the Government any proposals for getting them produced here this year? Surely it would be far more beneficial to this country to reduce the adverse trade balance by getting these imported goods produced here where we can produce them than by imposing unnecessary burdens on our people by forcing up the price of goods that they may desire to purchase.

There is no need for the Government to clap itself on the back and congratulate itself because it is making it harder for people to buy things that have to be imported and things that they may need. That was not their attitude when this matter was being debated here in similar circumstances before. Let me read a quotation from a speech delivered by Deputy McGilligan in the Dáil on that occasion, as reported in Volume 127, which I think is not inappropriate to the proposals now before the Dáil. He said in column 1717:—

"If people who have reserves want to spend them, why should they not do so? Have we not got at least to that degree of liberty in this country where a man, if he has a few hundred pounds and wants to buy a wireless set with it or improve his house by putting in a wash-basin or by putting in new carpets or furniture, is at liberty to do it? What is the merit in preventing him from doing it? We are getting completely authoritarian if we say that even the owner of savings who has reduced his consumption at an earlier period in order to get those savings cannot put those savings to some purpose which he considers advantageous if not profitable to himself."

It is not an advantage to this country to impose restrictions which will make it impossible for people to buy many of the things upon this list by making them dearer. That is a hardship which must be recognised and described as such, justifiable, perhaps, as a temporary measure, but only if the Government has behind it proposals for permanent rectification, for making it possible for us to buy and import those things in the future and to have the standard of living which their availability represents. In that respect we have received no suggestion of a plan or a policy from any member of the Government who has spoken in this debate.

These proposals, or some similar proposals, might be justifiable or excusable as representing a temporary device pending the effective application of constructive policies or the coming into office of another Government, which would mean the same thing, but they are not to be represented as something advantageous to this country. It is not contemplated that any of these proposals will have a protective effect. They may, incidentally, have that, but firms who may benefit have been warned that they are to be regarded only as temporary and removable at will at the discretion of the Government. It is, furthermore, exceedingly doubtful whether they will have the effect of reducing the flow of imports at all. If the increase in the volume of imports last year was due, as the Minister said, to excessive spending by the Irish public, to the availability of purchasing power which was in excess of the amount distributed through production and productive effort here, then that purchasing power will find an outlet somewhere and, if it is prevented from being utilised for the purchase of the goods which are listed in the schedule to the Minister's Order, it will be utilised for the purchase of some other goods and, maybe, perhaps imported goods at that; so that there is no assurance whatever that the effect of all these Orders made by the Government will be to reduce imports as a whole, though they may and probably will reduce imports of the listed goods.

The Minister has said that if these restrictions are not effective there will be further restrictions. That is the prospect which they are now holding out to the people of this country. In view of the unattractive nature of that prospect, there surely is an obligation on members of the Dáil not in the Government, no matter in what part of the House they sit, to urge on the Government that they should start doing some constructive thinking. For good or ill, they are the Government of this country for the time being, and what they do or say will be decisive in its effects upon the public welfare.

Are they thinking only of the symptoms of the illness that is affecting the national economy? Is their sole concern to conceal those symptoms by artificially cutting down imports, many of which are desirable imports, or are they seriously examining the circumstances to find out the real causes of our troubles with a view to cradicating them? These restrictions are going to have an effect upon employment. That is certain. Has the Government made any estimate of what that effect will be? Have they examined the position in any of the trades that are likely to be prejudicially affected by these restrictions to find out how many men are going to lose their jobs by reason of that Order? Or do they care?

Surely a Government that was concerned about the effect of its acts upon the public welfare would have made some examination of the likely consequence of its decision on the employment of workers and be able to give the House some estimate of what that consequence will be. Do the Government know how many men are likely to be deprived of their employment by reason of the Orders they have made? It is certain that some will be. Is there any arrangement in contemplation to ensure that new employment opportunities will open up elsewhere to offer the prospect of alternative work for those who are likely to be affected?

I have said, and I repeat, that to a very great extent the situation with which the Government is now faced has been aggravated by their own policies and by their own statements. The Minister for Finance said in his introductory speech that we cannot vote ourselves progressive increases in our standard of living. Who told the people that they could? Who campaigned up and down this country to tell the people that lower prices, lower taxes and better times were to be secured merely by voting, merely by going to a polling booth and marking ballot papers as they directed? Who told the people of this country all during last year that, if prices rose, people could protect themselves against the consequences of rising prices by getting more money, more wages, more remuneration of one kind or another—that they could be better off notwithstanding the fact that prices were rising and production was falling?

When last October I brought in here a motion of no confidence in the Government because of its failure to make any attempt to redeem its election pledges to lower the cost of living, there was an amendment moved, supported by every member of the Government, in which that fallacy was repeated, that people could protect themselves against rising prices by getting higher wages and on every occasion when the matter was debated here that opinion was expressed by some member of the Government.

The Minister for Finance now tells us that there is some connection between higher wages and still higher prices. Why is he so mealy-mouthed about it? Why not say out openly and clearly what the connection is?

Do they not think the people of this country are entitled to get leadership from the Government in office in a matter of that kind? Do they not realise how important it is to get it understood by every section of our people that a higher standard of living can come only as a result of higher productivity, higher output? Is it not about time that this fallacy that people can vote themselves a higher standard of living, vote themselves lower prices, lower taxes and better times, should be finally killed? The Minister's meagre attempt in his speech to propagate a new viewpoint on behalf of the Government is futile unless all the members of the Government who have been saying the very reverse during the past six months will stand up and reiterate what he has said. If the speech which the Minister for Finance made here on Tuesday, if the Orders which the Government brought into force that night, have shocked public opinion, it is because public opinion was not conditioned to receive them, because they represented such a complete reversal of the previous attitude of the Government that the public were unable to follow them.

I have said here in an earlier debate and I repeat now that it was the promise of the Coalition Parties to reduce prices, their assertions that it was practicable to reduce prices and their subsequent failure to do so, that were responsible more than anything else for the general urge that there was last year by every section of our people to get more money, to get the higher standard of living which the lower prices would have represented but which they were denied. During all that period there was no Minister who had the courage to stand up and say that that was an illusion, to warn the people that there was a connection between higher wages or higher remuneration of any kind and still higher prices, to tell them that they could not get themselves by their votes, their decisions or their resolutions, a higher standard of living, that that could only be got by the road of work and productivity.

Has the Government attempted to diagnose the cause of this situation which has developed? Why is it that there has been this increase in imports, this upsurge of spending which resulted in the increase in imports? Was it not reasonable to think that when a Minister came to the House with a whole series of proposals to deal with a situation that he described as threatening he would attempt to explain the Government view as to the origins of that situation? What brought it about? It is no answer to say that similar circumstances have developed in other countries. The Government in these other countries have tried to diagnose the causes and to explain the causes to their people and, in so far as they have done so, the circumstances that operate elsewhere do not operate here. We have this inflation of imports, this upsurge of consumer spending, in circumstances completely different from those which have created problems elsewhere and there is a need to examine that position, to analyse it and to explain to the people precisely what has happened. How can the public co-operate with the Government or with any plan that the Government may eventually devise, or how can they be brought to accept the restrictions the Government are now imposing, without having explained to them what is happening?

Why is it that there was this expansion in consumer spending last year, this enormous increase in imports which has jeopardised the whole national economy? Is not there an obligation on some member of the Government to attempt to analyse that situation for the public information?

There are two possible causes. One is that, somehow, there was an injection into our economy of more money which did not represent more work or more production. The other is that there has developed in the minds of the people the belief that more money for less work is Government policy, that the Government regard it as a practical policy and that everybody is consequently free to spend up to the limit of his income without any fears of the consequences. If that belief exists, and I believe it does exist, the responsibility for it rests squarely and fairly on the shoulders of the members of the Government.

In any case, it is quite clear that anything the Government have done so far can have a merely temporary effect. It offers no prospect of a permanent rectification of this situation. Have we to reconcile ourselves to steady, continuous lowering of our standard of living? Is the only prospect the Government holds out to the people one of mounting restrictions upon imports, a forcing down of the standard of living of our people by depriving them of the imported goods which they may desire to buy, goods of a character not now being produced here? Have they any plan, any idea for a plan, any suggestion to make as to how the people can help them, can help the country, can help themselves to secure the rectification of this position in a permanent way which will enable us to enjoy our present standard of living and enable us possibly to increase that standard of living while at the same time avoiding these heavy deficits in our international payments?

The Government bleats about increasing production. Will they come out of the cloud of generalisation and get down to the solid ground of particular products? What are the classes of goods, the production of which they think can be increased here and what are they going to do to bring about that increase? All this exhortation to the people to produce more, all this talk about the need for increased production, is futile if it is not followed up with an effort by some Minister to pin-point the directions in which the public can help and in which increased production is practicable.

Deputy Desmond was speaking some moments ago about the attitude of farmers to increased production and he was blaming them for their failure to expand output and criticising all previous Governments for all the grants and assistance they gave to farmers without getting the desired results. Every member of this House who has any contact with the rural community must know that there is a general belief among the farming community that increased production does not pay. There is a general belief that higher output invariably means lower prices. They regard themselves as being urged to risk more effort and more capital in expanding production without any prospect of greater reward. That is a factor in the situation. It may be that we may think that idea of the farmers to be wrong; we may feel that in present circumstances, even if it is true, we should still strive to get higher output because the country will benefit by it, but when Ministers talk about the need for higher production they cannot ignore that fact, and it is a fact that has to be dealt with before any plans or any proposals for increasing output can produce results.

Has the Government any idea as to how that attitude of the farming community to the matter of increasing output can be changed? Have they any suggestions to make, any practical proposals to put before the Dáil for its consideration which will deal with that definite fact bearing upon the whole question of national policy here and now? No exhortation to increase production will be effective so long as that belief persists. If higher output must mean lower average prices—and it is difficult to argue that it will not—has the Government any proposals to bring down production costs so that farmers will gain in increased profits from their greater efforts?

In relation to manufacturing industry we have the Government apparently building all its hopes upon the illusion that there will be an inflow of foreign capital to develop our industrial potentialities. That is a complete illusion; it is not going to happen. I do not say that no foreign capital will come in but there will be no very substantial industrial development because of an inflow of foreign capital. I realise politicians are always unwise when they commit themselves to prophecies but that is one I make with confidence. It is a complete illusion to think that we can sit back and wait for foreign financiers to come in and push our industrial expansion forward. Because that illusion has been created, no attention is being given to the specific problems holding down the development of industry by Irish enterprise and the utilisation of Irish resources. It is obvious there are factors operating at the present time to restrict our industrial development.

In his speech here the Minister for Finance spoke about the abnormal cost of money and said that capital funds are dear and scarce. That is a simple problem for the Government because the Government has the power to relieve itself of the consequences of that situation if it choose to use the power. For the Government it is a problem which can be readily solved if they want to solve it; it is an insoluble problem for the private industrial group that wants to get ahead with a new industrial project. A number of industrial projects are being held back at the present time because of anxiety about the prospect of raising capital and he would be a courageous man who would urge that any substantial issue of shares to the Irish public would find a ready response at the present time. There are others who feel that the price of money is such that an industry starting under present circumstances would carry a permanent handicap.

Why is money scarce and dear? This was not the Government's policy even a few months ago. This time last year we had the Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, saying here in this House as reported in Volume 149, column 227:—

"An essential part of our policy is that the price of money borrowed for capital expenditure must be low. Ours is the policy of cheap money."

And on the same occasion we had the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, saying:—

"The day of borrowing by an Irish Government at 5 per cent. is gone and gone forever."

Other declarations of the same kind were made by other members of the Government holding out to the country the prospect of cheap money. It was asserted that never again would an Irish Government have to pay 5 per cent. for a loan. What has happened to change that situation? Have the Government attempted to make any examination of the circumstances that have arisen which have so reversed the position in their view in the course of 12 months? Why is money scarce and dear? The Minister for Finance must surely be doing something more than wringing his hands about it. Can he answer that question here in the House? Why is it that at the present time in this country capital for public or for private purposes is scarce and dear? No one can see any development in this country which can have brought about such a change in 12 months as to explain that situation.

There has been, undoubtedly, a development in Britain and it may be that the explanation for the scarcity and the high price of capital here is what has happened in Britain. But is that something we are going to allow to continue without any effort on our part to remedy the situation or protect ourselves against its consequences? In Britain, investment in manufacturing industry has run far ahead of the estimates of the British Government. The British Government publishes an economic forecast at the beginning of each year and in 1955 investment in industry far exceeded what was calculated in that forecast. Investment in manufacturing industry, according to a statement published in the last couple of days, increased in 1955 by 18 per cent. There is a demand for capital to finance the expansion of the British economy which is the only possible explanation of the scarcity of capital funds here and of the price our people have to pay for them.

Other countries have had similar problems to deal with and have dealt with them. I do not know how effective the measures they took have proved or will prove to be, but is it the view of the Government here that we can do nothing about that except sit back and deplore it? Are we to see our prospects of industrial expansion here held up until some change has occurred in Britain, some change which we can neither influence nor control, to make capital available for the financing of the industrial projects which are ready to start if these problems can be overcome?

Ministers are pleading with the people to save, and exhortations have been addressed to all classes of people that they should save money. Saving committees have been set up. Exhortations of that kind do little good in the absence of prospects of price stability. Nobody in his right senses will exert himself to save when the outlook is one of continually rising prices. He faces the probability that the money he saves will buy less one year or two years hence than it will buy now.

Those who invested in the recent Savings Bonds have no reason to congratulate themselves upon their response to the Minister's exhortation to save money. They have already lost in capital value more than half the interest that they will get in the first year. I would like to know if the Government knew when they were urging the people to subscribe to the 5 per cent. loan issued a few weeks ago that they were going to issue national savings certificates at the rate of 4 per cent. tax free. Did they not have their tongues in their cheeks when talking to the investing public about the advantages of subscribing to the bonds and to some extent misleading the public when commenting on the terms?

If there is to be a permanent solution to this problem, and a permanent solution can come only through an expansion of production, it is clear the Government must take a very definite part in bringing that about. It will not just happen because they make speeches for the need for it. The solution will have to be planned and directed and led on by incentives and checks provided by the Government, and in so far as it is possible for them to get a response from the public in that regard, they can get it only by coming down to earth and specifically indicating the things they want—the things they regard as practicable to do—and by giving the assurances necessary to get the right response from the public. There is this problem of the scarcity and dearness of money here when there is nothing in our circumstances to justify it. The scarcity of capital funds is not due to any sudden expansion in capital investment here in recent months. On the contrary, all the indications are that there probably was a net disinvestment here last year.

The increase in consumer spending may have eaten into savings to some extent and diminished the amount available for new investment but it is not the whole explanation of what has happened. In this situation we just cannot afford to follow routine procedure. This country is faced with a crisis, whether the Government like that term or not. In relation to that situation they have got to take, and will be justified in taking, crisis measures in order to protect our people against the consequences which are now threatening them, against the situation which present trends indicate may arise.

The debate on this Vote on Account has very largely concentrated upon the specific proposals mentioned by the Minister for Finance when introducing it rather than with the Estimates. In so far as any indication has been given in the Book of Estimates, the Government apparently do not consider there is any obligation on them to do what they are urging the public to do. There is no sign of any effort on their part to curtail expenditure, no sign of any effort on their part to lessen the burden of taxation which the level of expenditure involves for the people. On the contrary, the Minister for Finance has warned us to face the Budget with fear and trembling. That, of course, may have been a political bluff. He may have been building up these apprehensions for the purpose of allaying them when the Budget proposals come before the Dáil.

However, if Ministers' statements are to be believed the country has got to face a heavy increase in its tax burden in the Budget because of the Government's failure to fulfil or even attempt to fulfil any part of their election pledges. They sent one of their most prominent members to Radio Éireann during the election campaign in 1954 to broadcast a statement, heard by hundreds of thousands of voters, in which a pledge was given to reduce the cost of Government by no less than £10,000,000 a year. Surely some explanation is due why the Government not only failed to keep that pledge but why the cost actually has gone up by £10,000,000. Some apology is at least due to those whom they misled by that statement by a responsible representative of the Coalition parties. We will have other opportunities of discussing the details of the Estimates. There is not any evidence of any great change in policy in any Department, but the over-all picture is one of administrative costs mounting out of control. There is no evidence of any efforts being made by the Government to deal with that situation or to apply to themselves the exhortations which they are addressing to the public. I suppose the only possible solution of this problem is to get rid of this Government. That will come sooner or later.

Mr. Lemass

Just for the moment I would prefer to see you sitting over there.

So would the people.

Vanity dies hard.

Anyone who has experience of hearing Deputy Lemass speaking in this House will realise that the trouble with him is that he gets equally excited about everything. Whether it is the bursting of a bubble or the smothering of a word, Deputy Lemass brings to those incidents the same exciting form of speech. I wonder whether anybody listening to Deputy Lemass could find from him what would the Opposition's attitude be were they in Government now, facing the situation that confronts the country.

I do not think there is any disagreement as to the facts. It seems to be accepted by Deputy Lemass and by other Opposition speakers that we have a balance of payments problem and the only difference that arises is as to the best method of dealing with that difficulty. Deputy Lemass says that the measures the Government propose are ineffective and inadequate. Anything the Government propose is wrong and will be criticised. Seldom can one ascertain what alternative proposals the Opposition might have in mind. Deputy Lemass, admitting the problem to exist, says that what we propose is ineffective and inadequate and reminds the House that this difficulty has occurred for the second time. The country faced the same position in 1951 as it now faces. But he says that the position in 1951, while serious enough, was not so serious as the present position is. Now, it is possible for the country, despite Deputy Lemass's natural reluctance to produce a solution, to ascertain what the attitude of Deputy Lemass would be if he were in Government to-day because, as he says, there was a similar problem in 1951 and Deputy Lemass and the Fianna Fáil Government were then in office and had to deal with it just as the present Minister must deal with the present problem. What I propose to do now is to ask the House to consider for a moment the methods adopted by Deputy Lemass in 1951 and by his colleagues in Government.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Deputy Lemass says this is the second time the country has had to face a similar problem. As I was saying, it is important that the House should consider the methods taken by Deputy Lemass and his colleagues on the last occasion and judge whether they were effective and compare them then with the methods now proposed, methods, which Deputy Lemass says, are ineffective and inadequate.

In 1951 the Fianna Fáil Government, through its Minister for Finance, now Deputy MacEntee, referred to the problem created by the balance of payments, which then totalled a sum of £64,000,000, in his Budget Statement on 2nd April, 1952. He spoke as follows at column 1123 of the Official Report:—

"...the necessary corrective measures for dealing with this urgent situation cannot be postponed; we cannot wait until it is clear that the long-term potentialities of increased agricultural and industrial output are being realised and the deficit on external account is being redressed. We must, accordingly, look into this matter further."

He continues at column 1125:—

"...for immediate and significant results, it is necessary to import less and specifically to import fewer consumer goods."

That is precisely the same problem that confronts the present Minister for Finance and the present Government.

Now, how did Deputy MacEntee proceed to face up to that problem? What solution did he put before the country in place of the present ineffective and inadequate measures, as Deputy Lemass has described them? We all know that, prior to that Budget, Deputy MacEntee and his colleagues had had the benefit of the views of the Central Bank as published in their report for the year ending 31st March, 1951. On page 14 of that report the Central Bank referred to the question of food subsidies, and the report contains the following paragraph:—

"Subsidies are not only a heavy burden on the Budget but also constitute a disguised addition to purchasing power as the money saved through getting the subsidised article at a reduced price is set free for other expenditure. They can have a twofold adverse effect on the balance of payments by promoting excessive demand for the subsidised articles whether imported or domestic but exportable, and by facilitating additional demand for unsubsidised articles. The effect of a subsidy may of course be modified to some extent by an associated scheme of rationing and some of the disadvantages of a subsidy may be obviated by a more severe ration scheme. Reduction or removal of subsidies would, however, bring several advantages in relieving the Budget and allaying inflation and remedying a distorting influence in the prices structure. It is true that removal of subsidy might tend somewhat to increase the cost of living but some inconvenience in this respect must be weighed against the compensating gains including especially the reduction of consumption."

Deputy MacEntee as Minister for Finance had the benefit of that view in proposing how the balance of payments problem should be dealt with then. Having said it was necessary to import less, and especially to import less consumer goods, he said at column 1137 of his Budget statement— it is well that these words should be remembered now and I can assure Deputy Lemass the country will be reminded of them:—

"The food subsidies are now, in practice, nothing more than a State supplement to incomes generally, a subvention in which, however, everyone shares irrespective of means. Furthermore, it is not possible to establish any precise point on the income scale at which an individual becomes, as a result of direct and indirect taxation, a contributor to rather than a beneficiary from food subsidies. The whole system is a wasteful and cumbersome means of conferring an indeterminate net benefit on some classes only of consumers ...The Government have given careful thought to this problem over recent months. They are satisfied that, as incomes generally have already advanced more than the cost of living and as essential foodstuffs are no longer scarce, there is now no economic or social justification for a policy of subsidising food for everybody.

There is nothing to be said on any ground for fostering the illusion that food is something that can be provided cheaper for everyone at the expense of others, rather than something for which everyone who can should be expected to work and pay. The Government recognise, however, that for social service beneficiaries of all kinds and also for larger families, even amongst those in steady employment the food subsidies do represent a net supplement to weekly income which it would not be equitable to withdraw without certain compensations which I shall specify later. Moreover, to ease the process of adjustment to real costs, it is not intended to withdraw the food subsidy completely this year. What is intended is, with effect from the convenient date nearest to 1st July next, consumers will be charged for tea, butter and sugar at their real cost. The price of bread and flour will be raised but not to the unsubsidised level. At the same time as prices are adjusted, rationing of all foodstuffs will be abolished."

There was in 1951 the proposal of the then Minister for Finance to deal with the problem, which is the same problem now, of how to get the people to import less consumer goods. In that Budget statement the solution proposed was to make the people pay more for the essential articles of food.

Mr. Lemass

Have these subsidies been restored since?

At the moment, and that is what I want to remind the House, that is what is in jeopardy, the £8,000,000 on food subsidies which would now be abolished if Deputy MacEntee or Deputy Lemass were Minister for Finance.

Mr. Lemass

What the Government are doing now is additional to what was done in 1952.

Deputy Lemass had a chance to say what the Opposition proposals would be instead of saying that these measures were ineffective and inadequate. He sat down without telling the country what the Opposition proposals would be.

Mr. Lemass

The present proposals are additional to what was done under the 1952 Budget.

I am reminding the Deputy that this same problem existed in 1951. The Deputy then had a chance to deal with it. The way he proposed to deal with it was to abolish all food subsidies but it was not proposed to withdraw them all completely in the first year. There is £8,000,000 worth now at stake on butter, tea——

Mr. Lemass

Bread.

Which the Deputy went down to Kerry to tell the people would be up before the people in North Kerry voted.

Mr. Lemass

Is it going up?

Deputy Lemass has great experience of putting up the price of bread.

Mr. Lemass

I said it would go up after the people in North Kerry voted. Is it going up? Let us know.

As I was saying, the country can gather from Deputy Lemass's reluctance to state their policy and from their previous experience of Fianna Fáil in office dealing with this problem, that the approaches are completely different. The Fianna Fáil approach to reducing imports was by increasing prices, to make it impossible for the people to have enough money in their pockets to have an effective demand for imports. They achieved that by a reduction in the food subsidies and undoubtedly, were it not for the widespread public outcry, the intention expressed by Deputy MacEntee in the passage I have mentioned would have been fully carried out and all the food subsidies would have been withdrawn the following year. But the people made it impossible for the then Government to do that and it was not carried out.

When Deputy Lemass says that what we are proposing is ineffective and inadequate, one can just imagine the strong measures which Deputy Lemass and his colleagues would now be proposing to the country—strong measures designed to make the people pay considerably more for the essential foodstuffs that they must buy in order to keep body and soul together—in pursuance of the same financial policy which says: "If they have to pay more for food they will have less to spend on the import of non-essential articles." That is a clear distinction in approach and I have no doubt that if the people of this country are asked which is the better policy they will say that what we propose is a saner approach to the problem.

Mr. Lemass

But they are getting both now. They are getting the 1952 restrictions plus these additional ones.

And Deputy Lemass describes these measures as ineffective and inadequate. I suggest that, holding that view, if he were in office now the rest of Deputy MacEntee's threat would be carried out; all food subsidies would be abolished. Does Deputy Lemass deny that?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly.

Does Deputy Lemass deny that the Government of the day that took responsibility for the Budget Statement——

Mr. Lemass

Has the Deputy nothing more serious to say than that things would be worse if we were in office?

Does Deputy Lemass deny that his Government, that took responsibility for that Budget Statement, intended to withdraw all food subsidies? We all know Deputy Lemass has just come back refreshed from thinking about the next Fianna Fáil Budget. He went down to Mallow to talk about it. May the Lord preserve this country from the next Fianna Fáil Budget. It is a pity that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, when he criticises these measures as ineffective, could not find time to tell us in what way they are ineffective and how they could be improved. It is possible for the country, knowing Fianna Fáil and knowing the methods they employed in the past, to come to a clear decision as to the two ways of dealing with what Deputy Lemass admits is a similar problem. We all know that the Opposition at the moment are desperately trying to find a policy. The big thinkers are sitting around big tables thinking hard. Speeches about producing a new range of taxes in the next Fianna Fáil Budget designed to achieve beneficial results for the community will not cod the people, because the Party that now gives thought to what they call a proper system of taxation or to the great problems of agriculture is a Party that for close on 20 years had full responsibility for this country.

Mr. Lemass

I knew you would come to that argument eventually. It is the only one you have.

Is it not a very good argument?

Mr. Lemass

It is childish.

Deputy Lemass is rather schoolboyish now.

Nothing could be worse than the tripe the Minister is talking.

The Party that is doing all this big thinking about agriculture, finance and all the rest is the Party that had almost 20 years to achieve everything worth while for this country. We have Deputy Childers of the Fianna Fáil brains trust who in his major statement at the Fianna Fáil thinking club in Clery's Restaurant the other night, took agriculture as his subject. It is always very interesting to note that when Fianna Fáil leaders want to talk about agriculture they select the Gresham Hotel or Clery's Restaurant. Here is what Deputy Childers had to say:

"Let us face the grave national issue before us. Are we to be a vigorous organic society or in our undeveloped state to follow meekly the British tendency to enter a standard of living above what we can afford?"

He went on to say:

"In order to get £5,000,000 capital into agriculture we have to find other money which could be used for immediate purposes."

A very nice way of stating the obvious.

Deputy Childers further stated on that occasion:

"Our post-war reconstruction plan, in so far as it is related directly to production, may have to be held up because farm production is still at the 1911 level, because for the last three years people have saved less and less."

There is a comment on agricultural production after 19 years in which——

Mr. Lemass

After two years of Dillon.

Do not talk nonsense. After 19 years of Fianna Fáil administration, the custodian of agriculture, farmer Childers, finds that farm production is still at the 1911 level. In the name of goodness, what were you doing for 19 years?

Mr. Lemass

What is the condition now? It went down 3 per cent. last year.

Deputy Childers said that in recent years the people have been saving less and less. I suppose that is our responsibility. Everything, according to Fianna Fáil, is bad, when they are out of office. Surely it is approaching the schoolboy type of atmosphere to sit back and say: "Just because you are in everything is bad." If there is a problem in agricultural production, as undoubtedly there is, and if there is to be a sharing of responsibility, let Fianna Fáil not think that after 19 years in office they can just shrug it away and say it is all Dillon's fault. They may try that but I do not think that they will find it very successful.

Reference was made by Deputy Lemass to imports of wheat and maize as part of the problem in our balance of payments. It is true that all imports in the form of foodstuffs which we could grow and which are suitable for our economy are wrong, but I would remind Deputy Lemass that in the last year for which his Government had responsibility, the importation of maize was a very serious part of our balance of payments problem and it is not as serious now.

Mr. Lemass

There was no balance of payments problem in that year.

For a very short while there was not, but may I remind the Deputy of what he said 35 minutes ago, that for each year since the war there was a balance of payments problem?

Does the Minister remember what Deputy Sweetman said on that?

I am only reminding Deputy Lemass of what he said 35 minutes ago in regard to the importation of maize. The Minister for Agriculture hopes, and I think it is possible, that there will be a considerable increase in the production of feeding stuffs in this country this year. That, of course, is part of the Government's plan for production. Everybody agrees that the only permanent way to deal with this problem is to increase production. I think that the House can be quite certain that the Government is well aware of that and we do not regard these measures as more than temporary measures to deal with a problem which we hope will be a temporary one also.

Listening to Deputy Lemass's speech and remembering our experiences after the Budget of 1952, it is possible for Deputies to realise what would be happening to-day if Fianna Fáil were responsible for the government of the country. We do not think that these measures are ineffective nor do we think that they are inadequate. If we thought they were ineffective or inadequate, we would not propose that they should be adopted. We think that they will be effective and we think that they are quite adequate to deal with the problem as we see it now. In that we may be wrong; Deputy Lemass thinks we are wrong but he does not say what he would do to make these measures more effective or more adequate. As I see it, what he would do would be to tax food and make it dearer.

Mr. Lemass

Any taxes that we put on are still on and you are keeping them on.

The only difference is that we prevented the Government in 1952 from completely abolishing the food subsidies as they intended to do. If that Government were in office to-day, presumably it would find these measures ineffective, and would take a further £8,000,000 off the subsidies on food, thus adding to the prices which the people would have to pay for that food. That is their method and it is for the people to decide which is the better. Fianna Fáil's in 1952 took away £8,000,000 which had been provided for subsidies. The immediate result was to raise the cost of living generally and to bring about a great deal of unemployment and real human suffering. Millions more in unnecessary expenditure in the subsequent 12 months or two years followed and there was never an approach to a finance problem that was so clearly shown to have been unwise in its results.

It is still there.

Mr. Lemass

It is still there and you did not change it.

It is not, thanks be to God.

You went in with the promise to get rid of them.

The people did not find that. They were able to buy the food which they needed.

Mr. Lemass

And they are paying more.

I agree their income is far greater. This Government does not believe that it is necessary to increase the cost of living as Deputy MacEntee did in 1952.

That is what Deputy MacEntee did in 1952. He reversed the chase and made the cost of living, by deliberate Government policy, get ahead of wages because the view was that only by doing that can you make the people of this country do with less and, if they do with less, then they cannot import from abroad. In any event, it is possible for Deputies and for the country to know how Fianna Fáil's proposal worked out. It is not possible at the moment to know how our measures will succeed. We believe they will succeed. If it transpires that these measures do not succeed in dealing with the problem then, as the Minister said, further measures will have to be taken.

We hope, by these measures, first of all to restrict the import of non-essential commodities. Secondly, we hope to encourage people into saving as a means of voluntary reduction in consumption and as a means of providing for the State necessary capital moneys. I suggest that Deputies on the opposite side of the House, instead of indulging in the polemics which Deputy Lemass has visited upon the House, should encourage every working man in this country to take a shilling out of every £ he earns each week and put that shilling into a saving certificate. If that were done generally by the people this problem would begin to disappear. This State would find available to it the moneys it urgently needs for capital development and we could get down to the job of planning in confidence for increased and expanding production which we all agree is the only means of dealing in a permanent way with our balance of trade problem.

That is all I want to say on this matter. I hope that the Deputies who follow from the Fianna Fáil side of the House will not be as shy as Deputy Lemass undoubtedly has been in saying what their proposals would have been. Mere criticism is never a substitute for a policy—as, I think, Fianna Fáil Deputies are rapidly beginning to learn. Our proposal is a clear proposal. It is quite different from the Fianna Fáil proposal some years ago. In our estimation, that proposal failed dismally.

It is still there —all these taxes you are talking about.

We have taken the teeth out of it.

You did not remove one of them.

Every one of them.

Would Deputy Ó Briain mind very much if I were to be allowed to conclude?

The Fianna Fáil method in 1952 failed and failed dismally. It would not be too bad if it merely failed by leaving a balance of payments problem. The trouble with regard to it was that, not only did it fail but its mere initiation cost the country a considerable amount of money, trade and suffering. Our proposal is now being tried. It is quite different from the Fianna Fáil approach. We believe it will succeed and at least, if it does not succeed, there will not be all the upsetting of trade, disemploying of people and all the hardship and heartbreak that were associated with Fianna Fáil's proposal a few years ago.

The Minister for Health has just given us to understand, as quite a number of other speakers from the Government Benches did yesterday, that all the troubles that have visited the present Government are a direct result of the Budget proposals and the Budget of 1952. As a matter of fact, one Deputy last night, in talking of this matter, regarded it as a stupid and catastrophic and completely unnecessary Budget. Let us see whether or not it was stupid, whether or not it was unnecessary and whether or not our ills to-day are the result of that or whether they are the result—as we on this side of the House maintain— of bad management by the present Government.

When the Fianna Fáil Government took office in 1951 we inherited quite a few legacies—and none of them to our advantage. We inherited, first of all, a Budget deficit from the previous Government of £15,000,000. We also found that our balance of payments deficit was then almost £62,000,000. In addition to that, our excess of imports over exports was in the region of £123,000,000. With this general picture we then had to find some solution. We had to grapple with it at that time. We knew that, in doing so, measures which were not popular would have to be taken. But, because we knew that such measures would be best for the country, we took them and took them immediately.

We introduced a Budget in 1952 which, although described as stupid, catastrophic, unnecessary, and so on and so forth, proved successful. We found that, by working that Budget and continuing it in operation until we were leaving office, we got rid of, to a large extent, the evils which we had inherited from the previous Coalition Government who left us with £15,000,000 of a Budget deficit, a deficit of £62,000,000 in the balance of payments and an excess of imports over exports of £123,000,000. These three figures are well worth remembering— £15,000,000 Budget deficit, £62,000,000 balance of payments deficit and £123,000,000 excess of imports over exports.

As a result of our handling of the affairs of the country from 1951 to 1954, our balance of payments deficit by 1954 was reduced from £62,000,000 to an almost negligible figure of £5,500,000. In view of these figures, can anybody say in regard to this matter that our Budget and handling of affairs was stupid, catastrophic or unnecessary? In the short space of three years, we were able to reduce what was then a stunning figure of a deficit of £62,000,000 in our balance of payments down to £5,500,000 which, I might point out, was the lowest figure since 1946. On the other hand, and at the same time, we had a reduction in our excess of imports over exports of almost half. We reduced in that same period our excess of imports over exports from £123,000,000 down to £65,000,000 and there was no £15,000,000 of a Budget deficit left behind when we left office in 1954. Therefore, our Budget of 1952, and our continuing financial policy during our years in office, certainly paid off well. We had these figures reduced and we handed over this country to the present Government in a sound position and in a position where we were going forward and not backwards as we are going to-day.

We are told to-day that, as a result of this Government's term in office, they have done many things including the reduction of the unemployment figures of this country, the reduction of the live register. We are told that that is a result of good policy on their part.

What we do not hear about here is the large number of our people who are leaving this country who normally would be on the live register. If they were here, that live register would reach an all time record. It is easy to say that we have less unemployment when you do not have to take into consideration that emigration, the worst evil of all, has been at work. There is nothing to boast about in saying that the live register is lower to-day. That is a misleading statement and one that is quoted so often from the Government Benches in an effort to get the people to believe, against their own better judgment, that the unemployment position is not worse to-day.

I know from my experience in my own constituency, and in my own parish, that more people have gone out of this country in the last 18 months than went during the last term of office of the Coalition Government. A greater number is going each month than went the last time the Coalition Government was in office. Between 1948 and 1951, 120,000 people emigrated from this country, never to return. Despite all that posters were printed in colour and distributed through the country stating that Ireland was building, although many of those buildings were in existence during the period of office of the Fianna Fáil Government and many more of them were planned by that Government. Despite all that talk, humbug and propaganda, nobody can get away from the fact that, from the figures, the numbers of people who left the country during that period were the highest of all time.

From my own personal experience, I have no hesitation in saying that we are now exceeding that all-time record. If we continue the pattern of these three years, the record for emigration will have reached a new high level and the live register, will, no doubt, have decreased because of the fact that emigration will have taken a greater toll than it ever did before. We have had this type of propaganda spoken in this House for the past few days. We have been told that up to 1951 our industry was expanding and our employment position was improving and that during that time the plans of the Coalition Government were in operation but that when Fianna Fáil was returned to office we wantonly, and without reason, tore up these plans. I heard of these plans so much last night that I never want to hear of them again. I heard of them before and no doubt I will hear of these great plans again but we have never seen a plan. We did not hear of these plans to-day and no effort has been made by the people in the Government to produce the master plan which was said to be in existence in their previous term of office.

It has also been given to us to understand that agriculture was depressed by Fianna Fáil. Let us look at the position in regard to the agricultural structure of this country over the past seven or eight years. Our financial position was bad when Fianna Fáil took office again in 1951 and, side by side with that, we also knew that our tillage, which is something that we all believe in now, had been left in a bad condition by the Coalition Government. During those three years of the previous Coalition Government, when the master plan was in operation, and our financial position worsened, we had 450,000 acres less tillage. From 1948 to 1951 we had a drop of 450,000 acres in tillage, of which wheat alone accounted for 230,000 acres.

That is something of which we should take very serious note. History, if we could call it history, is again repeating itself now that the Coalition Government is once more in office. We find our tillage acreage going down and that our wheat acreage has decreased by 129,000 acres while our beet acreage has decreased by 19,000 acres. Quite a large portion of our balance of payment deficit difficulties can be laid at the door of the Coalition Government's lack of tillage policy for this country. It can be laid to the door of the Coalition Government to the tune of the £12,000,000 paid out during the past year for cereals and feeding stuffs that we would have been able to grow here if Fianna Fáil was in office. These things are there to be seen.

The Minister for Finance can get £12,000,000 by encouraging the growth of wheat and cereals rather than discouraging it, as has been done in the past 18 months when we had a reduction of 12/6 per barrel in the price of wheat. Twelve million pounds is there for the picking up to help the balance of payments problem and also to do lasting benefit to our farmers if the Coalition Government will decide to concentrate on encouraging the growth of wheat and cereals for home feeding. That £12,000,000 is, in the Minister's own words, £4,000,000 to £5,000,000 greater than he can hope to get with the daft list in which 68 items are now being taxed in a manner that we never thought would be necessary in this country and which would not be necessary to-day if the Coalition Government had not come back into office.

Had this Government handled the affairs of the country in a proper manner since they got back in 1954, when our balance of payments was reduced to a negligible figure, and all things showed a downward, a happy and a good trend, instead of the mishandling there has been of the whole position, our situation would now be very different from what it is to-day. That mishandling of the situation by the Government is responsible for bringing about the economic crisis which, no more than six months ago, the Minister himself said did not exist, despite all the straws that were in the wind then to indicate to anybody that we were heading for a bad time. The Minister was not convinced until very recently that there was anything wrong. He was saying then that there was no crisis and that the country was still sound. The Taoiseach, less than 12 months ago, gave us to understand that all the indications of a bad time ahead about which Fianna Fáil talked were so much talk, so much propaganda, so much political capital made by a Party no longer in office. Less than 12 months ago that was the situation.

How, then, comes the position in which we find ourselves to-day? How, then, can the present Government maintain that they are not to blame, that they have no hand, act or part in this worsening of our situation and that we in fact, by a Budget of four years' vintage, are responsible for all these ills to-day? Why, if the Budget of 1952 was such a catastrophe, so unnecessary and so stupid, and was ruining the country, have the present Government in all their wisdom not removed the impositions of 1952? Why are they to-day continuing those impositions and adding on top of them something that would not to-day be necessary if Fianna Fáil were in office? The tax on these 68 items would not to-day be necessary if Fianna Fáil had been allowed to continue in office.

We have in these 68 items something worthy of note and something that is rather contradictory of expressions used by some members of the present Government a few years ago when a few items came in for an increase under Fianna Fáil. Deputy McGilligan, on 28th November, 1951, was weeping, moaning and gnashing his teeth because of the fact that there was an increase in three or four items, including upholstered furniture and other furniture of wood, carpets, carpeting and floor rugs, general earthenware, and household domestic brushes and brooms. Deputy McGilligan—at Volume 127, column 1715—went on to cry and moan on behalf of the householders and those who expected to get new houses. He talked of Fianna Fáil's want on policy at that time. Here were the houses built or started by the Coalition available for new tenants and here was Fianna Fáil going to ensure that there would be no furniture in them. He went on to state:

"If people who have reserves want to spend them, why should they not do so? Have we not got at least to that degree of liberty in this country where a man, if he has a few hundred pounds and wants to buy a wireless set with it or improve his house by putting in a wash-basin or by putting in new carpets or furniture, is at liberty to do it? What is the merit in preventing him from doing it? We are getting completely authoritarian if we say that even the owner of savings who has reduced his consumption at an earlier period in order to get those savings cannot put those savings to some purpose which he considers advantageous if not profitable to himself."

Where is this financial wizard of the old Coalition Government? Where is he to-day? What has he to say to-day and what have the members sitting in the same benches to say? Do they not consider that that summary in this paragraph of the speech by the then Deputy McGilligan should apply to-day or has something taken place in the meantime that alters the whole position so that no longer may anyone, whether he has saved in the past or not, spend on anything he wishes?

Things surely have changed. The chickens are surely coming home to roost. The Coalition chickens of Budget deficits, balance of payment deficits and excess of imports over exports—these are the chickens now grown into fat old hens—are coming home to roost on the Coalition Benches, coming home because of all the talk that was given out when we were the Government of the things that should not be done and which are now considered right things to do. Things that were then regarded as absolutely crushing the people are now considered the proper things, the right things and the necessary things to do in order that this country may continue as a free and enterprising nation.

We cannot possibly reconcile the attitude of the people on those benches to-day with their attitude three or four years ago. It is impossible to regard the statements of those days in any other light than that they were made then without any genuine belief in them, that they were made in the knowledge that they were untrue, that they were made, not with any genuine idea of helping our country or of being constructive, but purely as a destructive criticism by the then Opposition of the measures that the Government at that time were taking. Knowing that then and knowing it now, we want the people to know, in regard to the speech I have quoted, that that is only a typical instance of the other instances that can be quoted at length. This Government is composed of people who, when it suits them from a political point of view, will say one thing and, when they are a Government, will do the opposite and will say that it is good for the country, that they always believed in it and that Fianna Fáil are the niggers in the woodpile who stand between this country and progress.

We want the people to realise once and for all that this Government is composed of people who have very little regard for the truth when in Opposition, who have no hesitation whatever when they become the Government of reversing their outbursts of a few years previously and who try to ram down the throats of the people that this is what they always said and that Fianna Fáil are telling lies. We want the people to know who is telling the untruths. In regard to household furniture and household goods we want them to realise what Deputy McGilligan, as financial spokesman of the Opposition Parties in 1951, had to say—that anyone who had saved and had denied himself in previous years should be entitled to spend that money as he wished, whether or not it was profitable for him to do so.

If that was the position in 1951 why do we find that, to-day, of the 68 items listed in the Schedule, almost 50 per cent. are items the tax on which directly hits the home, the housewife and the wage earner? I have gone through the list but do not intend to weary the House by quoting the items one by one but there are 32 to 33 items that go directly into the household, that are bought by the housewife, that are being taxed under this list.

Manufactured outside the country.

I see the gentleman from Wexford has come in to lend some of his arguments in favour of the present Government's policy. All I have to say to Deputy O'Leary is that if he has any regard for the policy now being perpetrated—should I say—by this Government, the best assistance he can give the Government is to say nothing in favour of it because anyone who knows the Deputy regards anything he says as meaning the opposite.

You said a whole lot in Kerry. They did not believe you.

There is nothing I said in Kerry that I will not say here if I am put to it. Anything I said in Kerry I can say here. So far as Kerry is concerned, I think the Acting-Chairman knows more about it than most people here. The victory in Kerry is something the Coalition had better think about before the next election. They may be without a shoe for one of their feet. The whole position still revolves around the argument that I have been making, that the housewife and the domestic consumer are getting the hammer in a big way under the extra duties being levied by the Government. I am merely pointing out the difference that represents between the position to-day and the statement a few years back by Deputy McGilligan, then the ex-Minister for Finance and who, we took it, was talking with the approval of his colleagues when he condemned Fianna Fáil for raising the price of everything that had to do with the household or domestic consumer or anything whatever that would in any way interfere with the spending of the people's savings. We find that these savings, which were regarded then as the inviolate property of the persons who had them, to do with them as they wished, are no longer such and that we must now allow the Government to come in and say: "Although you have saved in the past, we must now prevent you from saving in the future; you have been buying too much, spending too much; you are not earning enough; you are not working hard enough and therefore we must step in and stop you doing these things in future." That is what this Government is doing and nobody can get away from that fact.

There is no point in members of the Government coming in and saying: "We did not put up foodstuffs." What about tea, that is selling to-day at anything from 1/- to 2/4 per pound dearer than it need be, all because of mishandling by this Government, all because the Government some time ago took a chance and that chance did not come off? They took a chance to get themselves out of a dilemma at that time. When the price was rising they took a chance on holding it down, hoping it would come down in the future. The Government of a country cannot do that sort of thing and get away with it; it is all very well for a private individual who is master of his own house and who is not responsible for the people of the country generally to say to himself: "I will take a chance." If it does not come off, it is only he himself who will suffer. But a Government should not take chances even if it seems politically expedient at the time.

The present Government took a chance on tea and we to-day are suffering because of it. The people of the country are suffering because of it to the tune of 1/- to 2/4 per pound on their tea. And they will be suffering because of it to the extent of 2½d. per pound for the next, God knows how many years. It is like the day-old chicks we got in 1949—we are paying for them yet. We will be paying for tea and the chance the Government took ten years hence, and there will be no word from the Government Deputies, who will try to bolster up the Government with noise. They hope that if they create enough noise they will be allowed to remain in office.

We have no chance with the Deputy anyway.

You certainly will not have any chance so far as I am concerned. Noise or anything else will get you nowhere where I come from. You tried it before and you got nowhere.

You will grow tea?

I do not really want to have a "go" at the Deputy, but if he wants it——

Deputy O'Leary's Party should not be talking about tea at all.

Getting back to the matter of taxes—one significant thing is that this Government is doing something in the present year that no other Government has ever done in the country's history, and, please God, no other Government will ever do again in the future. We are going to have three Budgets within three months. We have had the financial credit squeeze which we can regard as one Budget; we have this new taxation which we are discussing to-day which can be taken as the second Budget, and I am sure the Minister for Finance will not overlook the Budget which he or anyone in his position normally brings in in a month's time. This Government has, and will have for all time, the unique distinction—and the one distinction by which it will be remembered—that it brought in three Budgets within a few months.

We never brought in the 1947 or 1952 Budgets.

Those were two different years; I am talking about this year, and I am talking about the present Coalition Government which has seen fit to create one record by which they will go down in history. Once or twice was not sufficient for them to have a right kick at the taxpayer, or the ratepayer, but they have to do it three times. They are bringing off a treble.

We can only regard this as a sort of three-card trick. We have the credit squeeze, the new taxes now imposed and the normal Budget coming in a few weeks' time, and nobody on the Government Benches can say that any one, or all three of these Budgets will have the desired effect of arresting the worsening of our position, but what they are hoping for on that side of the House is that somewhere one or other of the three will turn up and that the lady will be found under some of those three cards. None of the people in the Government to-day knows under which. We have a three-card trick being carried on by the present Government on the Irish people because the Government had neither the guts, the gumption nor the plans they talked about to carry this country on in the progressive way in which they found it in 1954.

We find in regard to these items here that the householder or the domestic user is given "the hammer". In regard to this list, I want to say something which I think is a serious thing to have to say. In regard to certain of these duties imposed yesterday or the day before, which came into effect the other night, I could be told, and my information was fairly accurate, of one particular item, which is a rather large item in this 68-item list here to-day. I could be told a month ago that it was going to be done and that information came from a member of the Cabinet.

The Deputy had better burst the scandal wide open.

I am saying what I was told——

I am challenging the Deputy to give the facts.

If the Minister for Social Welfare feels the shoe pinching him, let him not squeal. I am not pointing the finger at him more than others. I am saying solemnly and genuinely and in good faith that I could be told a month ago——

On a point of order——

The Minister on a point of order.

Will the Deputy please resume his seat while I am addressing the Chair? I am the person responsible for introducing these special import levies. If the Deputy, therefore, has any charge to make against anyone for any disclosure of those duties prematurely, then the charge must be made against me, and I demand, Sir, that the Deputy now name his source of information, or if he does not, his withdrawal in accordance with ordinary procedure in this House. May I add this also? If the Opposition wishes to have an inquiry into that allegation by Deputy Blaney, it will be facilitated in every possible way, but it must be dealt with in either of the two appropriate ways— the charge will either be substantiated before the inquiry or withdrawn.

I fail to see the point of order. The Minister is really taking this as a reflection on him which is not really intended, nor is the allegation directed to the Minister, but as Minister for Finance he is quite in order in taking this matter to himself.

May I put a point of order?

We are still dealing with the first point of order and I am awaiting Deputy Blaney's withdrawal of the charge which he has made.

I am not withdrawing the charge I have made. The charge I have made is this, that I have been told—and it was over a month ago— that there was a duty going on one of these items concerned in this 68-point programme here. That could be told to me, and was told to me, as coming from a member of the present Coalition Cabinet. If there is any question that this matter was not then a fact, in fact if there is any argument to be made by the Minister that it was not then a fact—what I want to bring to the attention of the House is that whether it was supposition or fact that this particular member of the Cabinet was talking on, as a member of the Cabinet it was a damnable thing for him to give any hint that there was a duty coming on or coming off.

Whether it is true or not, it is a damnable charge.

It is a damnably untrue charge.

Deputy Blaney seems to be making a general charge.

He is making a specific charge.

On a point of order, as I understand it, the practice of this House is that when a member of the House makes a statement it is accepted in the absence of proof. I want to make it clear, beyond question and categorically, that a month ago no single one of my colleagues in the Cabinet could possibly have said that any such duty was being imposed. I want to make it clear beyond any question that I challenge Deputy Blaney to put on record any justification for the unfounded and unscrupulous charge that he has just made. So far as I am concerned, I am the Minister responsible in the Cabinet and I want this charge withdrawn.

Deputy Blaney has made a serious charge in respect of leakage of particular information, of information regarding the taxes now being imposed by the Minister responsible in the Cabinet. That Minister says no member of the Cabinet was in receipt of that information and that thus the information could not have been given. In view of that statement, Deputy Blaney should withdraw the charge.

I am glad the Minister for Finance has made the statement because I felt myself that the information could not be genuine. I was told, and I still tell you I was told very definitely; and whether it is true or was not true, it is wrong for a Minister to go around saying these things.

You stand over it?

I am glad the Minister has come out to say this was not possible a month ago, but it still does not relieve any member of the Cabinet of the responsibility of giving anything as a statement that something is going to happen whether or not that member has definite information. Some people, listening to such information coming from a Minister, would be excused for taking it as a fact.

Is the ruling of the Chair going to be accepted or not?

In so far as the Minister for Finance is concerned, I absolutely and completely withdraw any charge against him.

I submit that the real point is that the Deputy has alleged that a member of the Cabinet whose name is known to him was guilty of this. The Deputy says he does not know whether it was true or not. He knows full well he should not make that charge. It is the most serious charge——

I was told it.

It is the most serious charge that could be made against the Cabinet of this or any other Government. The Deputy is now challenged to give the name of the Minister——

The Deputy is not going to give the name of the Minister.

It is a foul, dirty charge to provide a heading for to-morrow morning's Irish Press.

If the Deputies opposite think that I cannot name the Minister responsible for this statement, they are very much mistaken. I will now name another one in connection with an incident that happened in the last few days. What happened then occurred since these things became known.

I have a right to continue with my own speech.

Come back to it. Name him now.

Keep your hair on.

Deputy Blaney made a charge that a Minister had made a disclosure of something that was in the nature of an official secret. When I told the House that such information was not in existence, he withdrew the charge against me. It follows that he must also withdraw the charge in toto because if the information were not then in existence, there could not have been a breach of an official secret and Deputy Blaney must, under the rules of this House, withdraw the charge he has made that there was a breach of an official secret. He has repeated it and is now going to make an allegation against another Minister. I want to make it clear beyond question that in so far as this Government is concerned—and I know I can speak for the rest of my Cabinet colleagues not in the House at the present moment—every member of this Government would welcome any investigation into any charges of this nature that Deputy Blaney may make. I would ask the Chief Whip of the Opposition to convey that, please, to the Leader of the Opposition.

Is the Minister for Finance taking responsibility for all the utterances of all the members of his colleagues in the Cabinet?

That is not the point. Come back to the point.

That is the point.

Is he doing that? I accept the Minister's statement.

The Chair has already ruled, and Deputy Blaney has withdrawn any charge against the Minister for Finance. If Deputy Blaney says another Minister has made a statement, that is something on which the Chair has no power to rule unless Deputy Blaney names the Minister. The Chair cannot extract the name of the Minister from Deputy Blaney.

He should name the Minister.

I have no power to extract a name from Deputy Blaney.

May I submit that Deputy Blaney did not level a charge specifically against the Minister for Finance? Deputy Blaney did say, and repeat, that a member of the Cabinet whom he knew, and whose name he knew, had made a disclosure of a tax that was about to be imposed. That is a specific charge against a member of the Cabinet. No more serious or foul charge, if untrue, could be made. That is the point we want dealt with and Deputy Blaney will not be allowed to reel away.

Deputy Morrissey will never be in the position to dictate to me what I will or will not do.

I am putting it to the Chair——

I was replying to the point but there were so many interruptions that Deputy Morrissey did not hear me. Deputy Blaney has withdrawn any charge made against the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance made it very clear that it was impossible for any Cabinet Minister to disclose any secrets regarding the taxes now being imposed, and in view of that and the fact that Deputy Blaney has made no charge against any specific Minister, it is difficult for the Chair to ask him to withdraw without having some further information.

It is worthy of Deputy Blaney. He has not the courage to name him.

We will leave that alone.

You would like to leave it alone but you will not be allowed.

He will not be allowed——

Surely the little "twerp" is not going to be allowed to tell me what to do.

I am not little and I am not a "twerp."

I was not speaking about Deputy Barry. Goodness knows, he is big enough for me to be able to see him.

On a point of order, I am a newcomer to this House and, as I understand the Chair's ruling, the Chair has described Deputy Blaney as an untruthful person.

The Chair has not described him as an untruthful person and that was not a point of order.

I submit that in fact you have not yet ruled on the point at issue. The matter that has been raised is the matter of a statement made by a Deputy in this House.

We have gone into all that. Is this a point of order?

With all due respect, will the Chair listen to me on a point of order? I am entitled to submit it and the Chair must, in accordance with the rules of the House, listen to it.

The Deputy will come then to the point of order.

If the Chair had not interrupted me, with all due respect, I would have come to it long ago.

Is it in order for a Deputy to say the Chair has interrupted him?

It is not only in order but it has been done.

May I be allowed to intervene to raise a point of order, which may have the effect of clarifying the position? As I understand it, Deputy Blaney made a charge that a Minister a month ago had disclosed that a duty, now on the special import levy list, was going to come into operation. Have I correctly repeated what the Deputy said?

Would the Minister allow me to tell him exactly what my information is?

That is what I understood Deputy Blaney to say: that a month ago it was disclosed——

In order to make the Minister's mind quite clear——

I was on my feet on a point of order.

The Minister intervened.

A month ago, I was told of one of the items in the list of 68 items here, it having been said by a Minister of this Government that it was going to be taxed and taxed fairly substantially.

On a further point of order, may I make it perfectly clear beyond question that the first time any of my colleagues heard of the duties on the special import list, or the first time that they heard of my proposed introduction of such a list, was yesterday-week? Therefore, without question, there can be no truth in the allegation that has been made by Deputy Blaney.

As I have already stated, I accept what the Minister has said.

And the rest naturally follows, if the Deputy will only take that course.

Oh, no. It does not naturally follow at all. As I said earlier, since this matter has been challenged, I was of the opinion myself at the time that these things—as now transpires a month after—could not have been known then officially and that it was a damnable thing for anybody in a high position to make a statement embodying any such information, even though it was not a fact.

On a further point of order, Deputy Blaney is now making a charge against a member of the Government.

He is quite happy now. He will get all the headlines in the Irish Press to-morrow.

He has not named that member. I suggest, Sir, that though it may not be possible for you to enforce such a ruling, in the interests of this House, a charge should not be made against a member of a body without that member being named.

Deputy Blaney has made it quite clear that he understood the member of the Government who made this bald statement to him was not in possession of any Budget secret or any information so far as this list is concerned.

He has not said that.

That is what I am trying to convey.

I do not think there is any law or any order against anticipation. Whether anticipation of Budget secrets is correct or otherwise, I do not think there is any order against such anticipation.

With all respect that is not the point. The charge is made that a member of the Cabinet disclosed a Cabinet secret a month ago. The Deputy has repeated that at least four times, and even on the last occasion he was on his feet.

And the Deputy has agreed that at that time the member making such a statement was in possession of no Cabinet secret.

He has alleged that a Minister made the statement, and that it was true, and that this list has borne out what he alleges the Minister said. He cannot have it both ways.

Deputy Morrissey is trying to have it both ways.

I am asking the Deputy a straight question.

What is it?

Will the Deputy name the person the Deputy is trying to charge? He has not the guts to do it. The Deputy is telling a lie. This is the phoniest charge ever made by anybody in this House.

I have withdrawn so far as the Minister is concerned and I take his word absolutely.

Against whom the Deputy did not make the charge.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary pipe down for once in his life and listen to——

Listen to this kind of thing?

If the Deputy does not want to listen to it he knows what to do.

He was not here all the morning.

If Deputy Blaney was a man he would withdraw the charge in toto.

The best thing to do with these people is to leave them alone.

And run away as fast as the Deputy can.

Deputies on the other side can jump up and down on points of order. I was in possession and I have been interrupted. Possibly Deputy O'Higgins and the Minister have something to say, something which may be worth saying, but the orderly thing would be to wait until their turn comes, like I did, and say it then.

Name the Minister.

Name the Minister now.

He cannot name him because he does not exist.

He does exist.

It is a complete fabrication thought out deliberately by the Deputy in his own little head. Nobody ever told him any such thing, or could tell him.

The Deputy wants to draw me, old hand and all as he is, but he will not draw me any further.

On a point of order, if the position is allowed to remain as it is at present, it means that every Minister of the Government, with the exception of the Minister for Finance, is under the shadow of the charge made by Deputy Blaney.

And that is the whole purpose of the charge.

So far as the charge is concerned, Deputy Blaney has withdrawn the charge in this way: he agreed with the Minister for Finance that on the date on which this supposed statement was made, it was impossible for any Minister in the Government to give this information with any authority because the members of the Cabinet were not in possession of that information. If we agree on that, then the matter is closed.

On a point of order, am I not right in interpreting that as meaning that it is withdrawn in so far as there is a charge made of giving specific secret information, but that there is no withdrawal of the statement condemned by Deputy Blaney as being irresponsible and all the rest of it?

The statement is withdrawn in so far as there were any Cabinet leakages. It has been clearly shown here that there have not been any Cabinet leakages. If Deputy Blaney is making a charge against any member, for making this supposed statement, that is something about which the Chair cannot do anything. Every member is, I take it, entitled to make comments on what may happen and what may be in the Budget to come.

Is it in order for a Deputy then to make a partial or qualified withdrawal of a disorderly remark?

Leaving that matter for a moment——

Let us get on with the Vote on Account.

Sir, as far as I am concerned, there is only one way of treating this kind of thing, and that is by taking Deputy Blaney's own advice and not listening to it.

(Interruptions)

Deputy Blaney on the Vote on Account.

I take it I will be at liberty to raise this when a responsible member of the Opposition does not do so.

Deputy Blaney now, on the Vote on Account.

Coming to the Vote on Account, we can ask ourselves how it comes about that certain members of this Government and their supporters could so clearly give an outline a few days ago of what, in fact, has now taken place. Reading an article in the Sunday Independent of 11th March by Deputy MacBride, one finds there what is as good a bit of anticipation of what was to come and what eventually did come as has ever been experienced or known in regard to such a matter as that with which we are dealing here to-day. He was dealing with problems of trade balance and indicated three or four ways in which he thought the situation could be remedied. Item No 3 in this article in the Sunday Independent of the 11th March last says:—

"That, following careful examination, hire purchase may have to be restricted. Exception should, however, be made in regard to agricultural machinery."

Item No. 4 says:—

"That in order to induce savings some entirely new type of non-depreciating bonds will have to be evolved."

That is one of the things I would very much like to know and possibly the Minister for Finance, with all the information at his disposal, can give the House some indication as to what type of bond this new non-depreciating bond is, whether there is such a thing and how it works.

Read the published report of my statement.

Is a new increase in the interest rates of the Post Office Savings Bank the answer to this item No. 4? As I already said, this whole article is certainly an anticipation of events to come which are and, we accept, were secrets of the Cabinet and I must say this thing certainly rubs the varnish off it very closely. That naturally enough is a matter, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has said, for each member of this House and if by anticipation he can pinpoint what the Budget revelations of next month or next year will be it is a question of good luck. But it does seem that this type of bond that Deputy MacBride talks about, is something that would be a God-send to this country. I wish we could have him back here to give us a clear insight into how these bonds can be created. The sooner we get them in this country the better and I would say that every other country in the world would pay us a handsome figure to get the secret of getting non-depreciating bonds. It certainly would, in my estimation, tend to ease all our burdens and make for prosperity for our country in the future.

Before I leave this list of 68 items, I want specifically to address a question to the Minister. I am sorry I did not address it to him earlier before we had so many interruptions. I refer to item No. 67 on the list which has to do with imported newspapers. Are papers originating and printed in the Six Counties regarded under this list as imported newspapers and will the duty be applicable to them? If the Minister can say they are not regarded as imported, then I will have no further remark to address to him. On the other hand, if he says they are imported, then there is a case I wish to make in order that some exemption be given. Will the Minister say whether or not Six County newspapers are, in fact, to come under the duty levied in respect of item No. 67?

I do not propose to answer any question the Deputy may put until such time as he withdraws the disgraceful charge he made a few minutes ago.

That is a very good point from the Minister.

There should be no further discussion on that matter. The Chair has ruled and the matter is closed. Deputy Blaney on the Vote on Account.

I did not raise the point again nor did I intend to.

I would say not.

I do say the Minister is being petty and mean and is behaving in anything but a ministerial manner when on being asked a question, which affects many people on both sides of the Border, he will not even say "yes" or "no". In doing that and in keeping silent, he is putting the House in the position that I must now make a hypothetical case because I do not know whether the newspapers will be subject to duty or not. I must make the case that this duty should not be charged whereas in fact the chances are that it will not be charged. The Minister could tell the House but he chooses to be petty and not to do so.

These newspapers originating in the Six Counties are many and varied. They cater for all classes and creeds, they circulate around the Border, and in some parts of the country around that Border they are the only provincial Press we have. Taking my own county, for instance, we have circulating there The Derry Sentinel, The Derry Standard, The Derry Journal and The Derry People. These four provincial papers are established for over 100 years. They were catering for my county long before there was any question of the Border or Partition. Surely the Minister is not going to perpetuate the evils of Partition by imposing this levy of three farthings, if it is a preferential rate, or 1d. as it may be, on each copy of such newspapers as will now come into our country. Surely he is not going to say to these four newspapers: “You must pay three farthings per copy for every copy of that paper that you send across this artificial Border.” Surely he is not going to say that no longer can The Whig, The Newsletter, The Irish News, The Tyrone Constitution, The Impartial Reporter, The Fermanagh Herald, The Derry People, The Strabane Weekly News, The Ulster Herald, The Derry Journal, The Frontier Sentinel and all the rest, come in although in some places they have been in circulation for over two centuries.

I would ask the Minister to consider that these papers are, to a large extent, the provincial Press of the Border community. They are, and were in the years gone by, before Partition was even heard of, the papers of the ordinary people of the county. The Minister by this act may well stop the circulation of some of these newspapers on both sides of the Border and I think for many reasons that would be a retrograde step. Many members on the other side of the House have said on many occasions that the best way to bring about the ending of Partition was that our people on both sides of the Border should know and understand each other better. How then can this Government say they are doing anything to bring about this understanding when there are upwards of a score of newspapers with large circulations around the Border that will no longer in fact circulate or, if they do, will not circulate as easily in the future as they did in the past? If the Minister persists in this idiotic levying of duty on these provincial papers from the Six Counties, he will certainly in his short time do a very great disservice to the cause of the anti-Partition movement and our ideals of ending Partition.

I would appeal to the Minister to consider this matter again. I have been told by representatives of a number of these papers that they would gladly meet him and discuss this matter with him Associated Irish Newspapers, to which many of these people belong, could and would be available at very short notice in order to discuss with the Minister this imposition of duty which will in fact have the effect of cutting off from the Twenty-Six Counties practically all Six County newspapers. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Top
Share