I wonder could the Minister give the House any indication when the Government may make up its mind as to the future regulation of the tea trade? Is it contemplated that the emergency arrangements now in force under the Supplies and Services Act will continue in operation until 31st March, 1958? The Parliamentary Secretary, in introducing this Bill, stated that the Tea Wholesalers' Association had asked that no change should be introduced before September of this year, or that the change intended should not begin to operate until September of this year. Is it indeed contemplated that there will be any change in this year or, to put the question in another way, is this Bill really necessary, having regard to the fact that the Supplies and Services Act will continue in operation until 1957?
Committee on Finance. - Tea (Importation and Distribution) Bill, 1955—Committee and Final Stages.
Mr. Lemass
The Bill was drafted on the assumption that the Supplies and Services Act would, in fact, lapse. It is, nevertheless, useful as machinery. The general intention is to introduce a Bill as part of the scheme to arrange that specific legislative measures will be introduced to do things which are now done by virtue of authority conferred under the Supplies and Services Act. The question of tea purchases is at present tied up under the Supplies and Services Act and the intention is to introduce a measure dealing with that problem.
I hope, in the measure which is to be introduced, to let tea go back into private trading but the manner in which it goes back is important because the question as to what is to be the pattern of our future tea purchasing is a particularly important consideration. There are points of view as to whether tea wholesalers in this country should buy any place they like in the world or should be legally required to organise their purchases in the country of origin, the view being held that it is possible to buy there cheaper than you can buy in the tea markets which themselves buy from the country of origin. That problem is under consideration at the moment.
Mr. Lemass
Can the Minister say in any definite kind of way when he hopes to have that legislation, or when he hopes to be in a position to make a statement on the principles on which that legislation will be based?
I hope to be able to indicate the principles by the end of the year.
Would the Minister undertake to consider interests in the tea purchasing and importing business which have not hitherto been considered and ensure that he will not listen to one little moneyed section of the trade?
The wholesale tea dealers were consulted previously and their views were considered generally in connection with the general consideration given to this whole problem. If there were tea dealers who felt that their views were inadequately or only partially expressed by that association, they can make any representations they wish at this stage before the final decision in the matter is taken. I want to say, however, in this whole matter it is not only the Wholesale Tea Dealers' Association or its members that must be considered. The whole national interest must be considered as to where it is best to buy tea or what is the pattern of tea purchases that best suits the national interest.
I would like to ask the Minister if he would take the necessary steps, in any review of the question of tea purchases, to improve the quality of tea because the quality of tea imported at the present time is deplorable. I think in a review of the whole business he should keep very strongly in mind the importance of the quality of imported tea.
He will not do it in Mincing Lane, anyway.
I move amendment No. 1:—
To delete the definition of "prescribed", lines 12 and 13.
It is proposed to amend Section 7 of the Bill and in consequence it is not now necessary to define "prescribed" in this section.
Mr. Lemass
Am I right in assuming it is the intention of the Minister to continue the present position in which nobody gets a licence to import tea except Tea Importers, Limited?
That is so.
Mr. Lemass
Would it not be better and wiser to have that stated in the Bill specifically rather than leave it in a vague general form?
It was, I think, stated on the Second Reading.
Mr. Lemass
I am not talking about that; I am talking about what is stated in the section. The section states that no persons shall import tea except in accordance with a tea import licence issued to that person. Should the section not have been framed to provide that no organisation or person other than Tea Importers, Limited, would be licensed to import tea?
As the Deputy will see from Section 3 a statement in these terms would be far too restricted inasmuch as there is a provision here whereby small gifts of tea may be imported. That is why one cannot be as absolute as the Deputy might otherwise desire.
Mr. Lemass
Will the Minister state definitely it is not intended to alter the present practice or to use the powers which he is taking in the Bill to alter the present practice?
That is so. The Deputy may take it that the present pattern will continue. There is no desire to alter it until we can substitute permanent amending legislation.
I move amendment No. 2:—
In paragraph (ii), to delete lines 24 to 27, inclusive, and substitute:
"which does not comply with Section 22 of the Insurance Act, 1936 (No. 45 of 1936), or Section 42 of the Central Bank Act, 1942 (No. 22 of 1942)."
This amendment is designed to ensure that an applicant for a tea wholesaler's licence is not financed by any body; corporate incorporated outside the State unless such body corporate is legally entitled to carry on banking or insurance in the State under our legislation. When the decision to restrict the granting of tea import licences to Tea Importers, Limited, was taken in 1947, it was also decided to confine the issue of tea wholesalers' licences to concerns which were conducting all the operations of a bona fide wholesale business from premises in this country.
Apart from the fact that the admissions of external wholesalers would increase the cost to the consumers by introducing an unnecessary link in the chain of distribution, it is considered unjustifiable that outside firms should be permitted to participate to the detriment of native concerns in the distribution of tea purchased from funds under Exchequer guarantee. Section 6 provides for the continuance of the existing practice under which, since 1947, granting of a tea wholesaler's licence to a new entrant to the business has been confined to bona fide Irish concerns financed solely from sources within the State.
Mr. Lemass
Does the term "financially assisted" cover investment in the shares of a company?
The general intention, as the Deputy will see from Section 6, is that the persons qualified to apply for tea licences are set out there in (a), (b) and (c)
Mr. Lemass
Perhaps I am not making it clear. The intention of the section is to provide that a tea wholesaler's licence will be given only to a person who normally resides here, or a company incorporated here and the amendment of this section is to provide that the company must not be financially assisted by an outside company except where this outside company is a bank or an insurance company carrying on business here within our law. Is it not possible for outside tea wholesale firms to enter the trade here by the process of purchasing a controlling interest in the shares of an existing Irish tea wholesaling company, and would that be permissible?
If it is in conformity with the law of the country, presumably it is permissible. The Deputy means would the fact that a person in England or in India holding a share in an Irish company put the company here in the position that it was being assisted by a foreign shareholder. The answer to the second question is "no". I am sure I do not know what the answer is to the first question because it is an issue which did not arise here, but I am sure anything that complies with our present law in all other respects cannot be at variance with the provisions of a Bill of this kind.
Mr. Lemass
I take it that what the Minister is trying to do is to prevent a tea wholesaler's licence being acquired by a bogus company, a company which although incorporated here with an Irish title is, in fact, merely a cover for a British wholesaler who provides the finance for its operation? Could not that situation—if anybody wanted to bring it about—be created by the simple process of transferring shares in the Irish company to the British wholesale company, or is it correct that tea wholesaling in so far as it involves the process of blending and packing tea comes under the Control of Manufactures Act?
I do not think I can give answer to these questions objectively without reference to the facts of a particular case. I want to prevent the situation where a person can come in with a £10 note and say that he wants to engage in the tea trade; that he has ten Irish pound notes and that he is a member of a group or has the backing of a group which will allow him to draw on them up to £1,000,000. I want to prevent any such situation arising. If the Deputy looks at Section 7 he will see that certain powers are given to the Minister which can be used for the purpose of dealing with the qualifications of such people if the necessity arises.
Mr. Lemass
The Minister has to be satisfied that a person is qualified under Section 6 in which case he must issue the licence as I read the wording of the new Section 7. In Section 6 there is nothing to prevent a substantial proportion of the company's finances being owned outside the State.
If the Deputy will look at Section 7, sub-section (3), paragraphs 3, 4 and 5, he will realise that there is power in these paragraphs to deal with the situation such as he has in mind if it ever arises.
Mr. Lemass
I merely ask the Minister to satisfy himself that he is achieving what he wants to acheive.
I think I am.
Mr. Lemass
The position is that a company can qualify for a tea wholesaler's licence, provided that it is not financially assisted by any person ordinarily resident outside the State, or by any body corporate incorporated outside the State. Apart from this condition the company can be assisted by anybody and financed from any source provided that the finance comes through a body registered under the Companies Act.
Certain very large companies have been registered in this country for many years and are completely owned outside the country. They are not controlled or run by Irish nationals except in minor positions, and they have been permitted by Deputy Lemass to enter into and figure very largely in the tea trade in this country. I wonder is there a danger there?
As far as we can see, the powers contained in this section will give us all the power we need to deal with the situation such as is envisaged by Deputy Lemass. If we require any additional powers we can come back to the House and ask for them.
Mr. Lemass
Or the Minister can go back to the Supplies and Services Act.
Yes.
I move amendment No. 3:—
Before section 7 to insert a new section as follows:
7. (1) An application for a tea wholesaler's licence shall be made to the Minister in such form and shall contain such particulars as the Minister shall direct.
(2) Where, on receipt of the application, the Minister is satisfied that the applicant is qualified under Section 6, the Minister shall issue a licence authorising that person to carry on the business of selling tea by wholesale.
(3) The Minister may attach to a tea wholesaler's licence such conditions as he thinks fit.
(4) A tea wholesaler's licence shall not be transferable.
(5) Where, after the issue under this section of a tea wholesaler's licence, the Minister is satisfied that the licensee is no longer qualified under Section 6, the Minister may revoke the licence.
(6) A licence granted or deemed to be granted under Article 13 of the Tea Order, 1950 (S.I. No. 146 of 1950), and in force at the passing of this Act shall continue in force and be deemed to have been issued under this section.
This amendment is designed to simplify the procedure in regard to the issue of tea wholesalers' licences. Sub-section (1) is self-explanatory. Sub-section (2) provides for the issue of a tea wholesaler's licence to any applicant who establishes qualification under Section 6. Sub-section (3) provides that, if so required, the licence holder shall furnish such particulars as the Minister may require to ensure that there is no change in the conditions of the licence. Sub-section (4) provides that the wholesaler's licence shall not be transferable. Sub-section (5) is self-explanatory and sub-section (6) provides that a licence granted or deemed valid under Article 13 of the Tea Order, 1950, shall continue in force at the time of the passage of the Bill.
Mr. Lemass
Would the Minister state if there is any intention on his part that the powers granted under sub-section (3) would be used to attach different conditions to licences issued to different wholesalers? Does the Minister contemplate that different conditions should attach to different licences or will they all be uniform?
Normally they will be uniform but if a situation such as that envisaged by the Deputy should arise we could utilise the power in this sub-section to deal with the situation. That power could not be utilised if we had not got this sub-section.
Mr. Lemass
I think the Minister is taking some rather dangerous powers, if he contemplates that he can deal with cases in an individual way and attach different conditions to the licences. If he contemplates acting in that manner, there should be some provision to ensure that notice would be given to the Dáil where the Minister has decided in any individual case to impose restrictions on a trader which would not apply to all other traders.
I do not contemplate having to do that. There is power here to deal with a particular set of circumstances where it may be necessary and to ensure that a tea wholesaler carries out the policy decided on by the Dáil.
Is there any objection to taking the Report Stage now?
Mr. Lemass
I have no objection but I think the Minister should take another look at Section 6 before he takes it to the Seanad.
Will it suffice if I look at it in the Seanad?
Mr. Lemass
Yes. I will not try my hand at amending it.
Would the Deputy agree to taking the Report Stage now?
Mr. Lemass
Yes.
Agreed to take remaining stages today.