Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 May 1956

Vol. 157 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Briscoe.)

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. O'Donovan)

I think it desirable that I should answer once and for all the inaccuracies in Deputy Briscoe's speech and then go on to deal with the more serious and more important matter, namely, the Taoiseach's letter of 16th April last.

Deputy Briscoe said that a proposal was put forward in December, 1955, by the Dublin Corporation to the Department of Local Government that loans should be given at the old rate of interest to those who had applied for Small Dwellings Acts loans up to November, and that that proposal had been rejected by the Minister. That statement is not true. It is not true, not because of any opinion of mine as against that of Deputy Briscoe, but because—and this is a very simple reason—the Minister's sanction is not required at all for the fixing of a rate of interest to borrowers. That is why it is not true. The Minister does not have to sanction any such rate. As the House will see in a moment, when I read the Taoiseach's letter, a sum of £1,000,000 was approved by the Government and half of it has already been issued. Now, a good deal of Deputy Briscoe's speech related to the capital requirements of the corporation.

Mr. J. Lynch

The corporation?

Mr. O'Donovan

The Dublin Corporation.

Mr. O'Donnell

Cork Corporation have done very well and I would like to congratulate them.

Mr. O'Donovan

There is this difference between Dublin Corporation and Cork Corporation: Cork Corporation got their last loan filled and, as the Minister says, they are to be congratulated on the manner in which they carry out their financial business.

Deputy Briscoe asked about the survey. The survey to which he referred was that mentioned by the Minister for Finance to the corporation representatives at a conference in February last. The Minister for Finance told them at that time that the capital position generally was being reviewed and that the review would be completed in advance of the Budget. It was arising out of that survey that the Taoiseach wrote to the Lord Mayor on 16th April and, anybody who wants to know what the position is in relation to the matter, can find out by reading the Budget speech of the Minister for Finance.

I come now to the most important matter raised by Deputy Briscoe, namely, the meaning of the Taoiseach's letter of 16th April, 1956. I would like to read this letter for the House and place it on the records:—

"My dear Lord Mayor,

I have received from the city manager a request that representatives of the Dublin Corporation would be afforded an opportunity of discussing the finances of the capital housing programme of the corporation. The Government have been considering the question and in the normal way the Minister for Local Government would convey to you the views of the Government. As he is absent, however, I am writing to you so that you may know the position at the earliest possible moment.

Since the interviews which you and members of the city council had with the Ministers for Finance and Local Government in February, as a result of which £1,000,000 was allocated exceptionally to Dublin Corporation from the Local Loans Fund for Small Dwellings Acts advances, careful consideration has been given to your representations about the corporation's capital position in general."

I might at this stage make the comment that that was the first occasion, to my knowledge, on which moneys were made available from the Local Loans Fund to the Corporation of Dublin—the first occasion—and nothing Deputy Briscoe may say can alter that position. It is a fact. The letter continues:—

"As was indicated at those meetings the Minister for Finance wished to have estimates of the capital requirements of the State, local authorities, the E.S.B., C.I.E., etc., before assessing the extent to which these requirements could be met and consulting the Government as to the arrangements that might be approved in individual cases.

In this connection, the most sympathetic consideration has been given to the capital needs of Dublin Corporation for housing, both for slum clearance and for house-purchase loans under the Small Dwellings Acts. I am glad, therefore, to be able to inform you that the Minister for Local Government, with the agreement of the Minister for Finance, will approve of total borrowing by Dublin Corporation in the current financial year of £4,000,000. Taking into account the balances available from the last stock issue"

—mark you, balances available from the issue of £6,000,000 which Deputy Briscoe said was not sufficient for the purposes of the corporation up to the end of December, but there were still balances at 16th April of this year—

"this will provide for housing under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts on the scale of last year's actual expenditure: for requirements for Small Dwellings Act advances, applications for these being screened by reference to the circumstances of the applicants and the availability of house purchase finance from commercial sources; and for work on the North Dublin main drainage scheme.

Of the £4,000,000, £1,000,000 is being advanced from the Local Loans Fund for Small Dwellings Acts advances, as already mentioned. It is expected that the corporation will use their best endeavours to raise the balance of £3,000,000 from appropriate lending agencies, subject to the consent of the Minister for Local Government to the terms. It is accepted that a public issue of stock by the corporation would not be practicable in present circumstances. If, however, the corporation should not be able to raise independently the full £3,000,000, the Government will come to their aid and make good the deficiency by advances from public funds."

That, Sir, is the most important sentence in that letter and I shall come back to it for a moment later on.

"This undertaking is being given, despite the current shortage of capital, in consideration of the onerous obligations of Dublin Corporation and the desire of the Government, on social grounds, of continuing to devote a high proportion of national resources to meeting essential housing needs."

Could any words be more specific? Has an official letter ever being issued the meaning of which is clearer? What the Government has done is something no other Government has done before. They have taken the Corporation of Dublin into the Local Loans Fund. That is the effect of that letter, and then Deputy Briscoe comes along and pretends "we have not got the money". He speaks disparagingly of letters of this kind, and by innuendo and insinuation he has suggested time and again that the Government gave no real promise or no real guarantee. I do not know what he expects to gain by this kind of tactics.

I want to comment on his objection when Deputy Seán Collins interrupted him and said his language was "the language of sabotage". Deputy Briscoe objected very strongly—I do not blame him for that—but I took down carefully one sentence which he used late in his long speech. He had already been speaking two-and-a-half hours and perhaps he might be forgiven, but this, Sir, is the sentence:—

"The best thing would be for local authorities to precipitate a situation by closing down now."

Is that the language of sabotage? What is the meaning of it, if it is not?

Mr. O'Leary

That will get headlines to-morrow in the Irish Press.

Mr. Smith

No, it is the price of cattle that will feature there.

Mr. O'Donovan

During the course of his speech Deputy Briscoe referred to many things which I think were not really relevant. Might I have permission to reply to one of them? It was a statement—just as untrue as many of the other statements made—in which he announced that the recent failure of the Government loan was the first time that a Government loan was not a success here.

Deputy Briscoe was a member of the House in 1934 when Deputy MacEntee issued his first loan, and personally I believe that the failure of that loan in 1934 and the effect it had on Deputy MacEntee then as Minister for Finance was responsible for the rate of interest he paid in 1952 for the huge loan he raised at that time.

Mr. Smith

There were failures since then, too.

Mr. O'Donovan

There may have been. I am not disagreeing with the Deputy, but the Deputy is disagreeing with his colleague now. Deputy Briscoe said it was the first time a Government loan was not a success. I am just answering that. Deputy Smith may be right; I am not going to take issue on it at all. I am just taking it as an example of the kind of propaganda——

Mr. Smith

They had not the same effect as the last failure.

Mr. O'Donovan

Speaking from recollection, when Deputy MacEntee was looking for a loan of £6,000,000 in 1934 all he got was £3,000,000 or £4,000,000. I may not be quite accurate, but he got roughly about half of what he looked for.

Mr. Smith

It is the after-effects that count.

Mr. O'Donovan

The only aftereffect was Deputy MacEntee's failure in 1951. There would be no difficulty about capital for the Corporation of Dublin or any other semi-public body to-day if we had kept the Marshall Aid moneys where Deputy McGilligan had carefully put them.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should not go back on the Budget debate.

Mr. O'Donovan

I am grateful to you, Sir, for giving me permission to answer these points. Deputy Briscoe made other points not relevant at all, but I want to deal with one specific thing. It has been suggested, for example, that certain Small Dwellings Act cases are not yet catered for. I understand that the total amount of money required—again speaking from recollection—to cater for these cases was £160,000, and Deputy Briscoe made a statement about some additional oddments totalling £189,000. Whether I know anything about finance or not is a matter of opinion, but at least I know something about estimates. I spent a long time working in the Department of Finance and I know everything about estimating and about how expenditure works out when you make estimates. I have been informed that the gross expenditure of the Corporation of Dublin for this year is estimated at £11,400,000, of which about 48 per cent. will come from the rates.

Is anybody going to tell me that you could not get £160,000 out of £11,400,000? If he does, he either knows nothing about the subject or he is a knave or a fool. It is contemptible to say that you could not get out of a sum of £11,400,000 a sum of £160,000. It is disreputable and it is unworthy of the consideration of any reasonable, decent person. If the Corporation of Dublin are incapable of getting £160,000 out of £11,500,000, the best thing they could do is to fold up their tents and give up their job.

Mr. D. Larkin

Is the Parliamentary Secretary suggesting that the corporation should use money raised for other purposes?

Mr. O'Donovan

We all know how much the Minister for Finance shows here each year as savings, and I am asking is the Dublin Corporation so different from every other body that they cannot find, in the whole combined wisdom of the City Hall, officials and people of the corporation, a sum of £160,000 out of £11,500,000?

Mr. D. Larkin

The Parliamentary Secretary is aware of the fact that, if there is excess available in one year, it must go to the credit of the ratepayers in the following year. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary is not suggesting that the corporation should take £160,000 from the moneys raised for other purposes?

Mr. O'Donovan

The Parliamentary Secretary is suggesting that, if any group of persons are spending £11,500,000 a year, they should be able to find approximately £200,000 somewhere in that £11,500,000. The Parliamentary Secretary knows from long experience of working on estimates and working on expenditure that there is no difficulty whatever, with goodwill and effort on the part of the people concerned.

When Deputy Briscoe was chairman of the Finance Committee in 1953 they sat for seven hours and, after that seven hours, they took not 1d. off the estimates put up by the city manager. Is anybody going to tell me that the officials of the Dublin Corporation are so precise and so accurate that the whole Dublin Corporation, with Deputy Briscoe at their head, could not find 1d. to take off in that year after they had sat for seven hours? I think really that it is asking us to believe the unbelievable.

I shall end by giving Deputy Briscoe a piece of good advice. Of course, he will not act on it. The best thing he could do would be to pay the Leader of the Opposition the 2/6 that he bet him. I admire the Leader of the Opposition for breaking the rule of a lifetime and making that bet of 2/6, and if I were the Leader of the Opposition I would make it, too. The best thing Deputy Briscoe could do is to pay the Leader of the Opposition the 2/6 and never mention the subject of Dublin housing anywhere ever again.

Mr. O'Donnell

What was the 2/6 for?

Mr. O'Donovan

The Minister has asked me what the bet was for. Deputy Briscoe bet the Leader of the Opposition that no Government in this country would let Dublin housing fall down through lack of making money available. It shows to what a pitch Deputy Briscoe had worked himself on this political canard. Deputy Briscoe said in this House on one occasion that his purpose on this was to bring down the Government, but he will want to play a better card than that to bring down this Government.

Mr. J. Lynch

Listening here for the past three or four hours, one would imagine that the housing problem existed only in Dublin. No matter what Deputy Briscoe has said and no matter in what way he is replied to by the Parliamentary Secretary, I have no doubt about the genuine interest that each member of the House, and particularly those who are members of local authorities in Cork or Dublin, has in the solution of the housing problem and the financial difficulties—I will not say crisis—that have arisen in Cork, as well as in Dublin. While appreciating the genuine interest of everybody in the problem and the genuine desire on the part of the Minister, and the members of the respective local authorities to solve it, I have no real fear that the present difficulties will not be overcome, both in Cork and Dublin, if for no other reason, to come down very much to earth, than that no Government can afford the political unpopularity that a housing crisis would bring in its wake. Therefore, while not viewing the problem with any degree of complacency, I am not, at the same time, very much alarmed that the difficulties now being encountered will not be overcome to the satisfaction of everybody.

Apart from the difficulties that have arisen, and apart from the realisation that there is still an acute problem, both in Cork and Dublin, throughout many parts of the country, the housing programmes under different local authorities either have been completed or are within reasonable distance of being completed. Unfortunately, however, in Cork, for which I can speak, I cannot see any reasonable conclusion before the next seven to ten years. I suppose it will always be a recurrent problem and it is one for which I think the local authority more than the Department of Local Government must bear responsibility.

If a local authority were prudent enough to order its finances properly and, more important still, to secure sufficient land on which to build and to avail of its resources in manpower and in building materials at the proper time, I doubt if such an acute problem as has arisen in Cork would arise. At all events, the difficulty has arisen in Cork that there have been some dismissals from the direct labour building schemes. Whether they are all due to financial difficulties or not, I do not know, but I do know that there have been very many more men laid off in the recent past than have been taken on in a similar category of labour. Some investigation is taking place into that aspect of the matter at present.

On housing generally, I believe that the requirements of the Department with regard to specifications are too ambitious, where very acute housing problems exist. The density of houses to the acre is too high in areas such as Cork, where, once the land easy of development has all been taken up, the density qualification on the more difficult building sites should not be as severe as it now is. In the old days, when local authorities built houses, they built terrace-type houses and they could put 12 or 14, where now only two or three are permitted. At all times, let us advance with regard to public health and hygiene, but I do not see any reason why good land should not be taken over and used for all types of houses. There is a demand all over the country and particularly in the city for a cheaper type of house. Possibly the minimum it now costs to build a dwelling for a family is about £1,600. I suggest houses of a cheaper type would be welcomed by many of the people who are now looking for houses of the terrace type.

Mr. O'Donnell

That is what I am trying to persuade the Cork Corporation.

Mr. J. Lynch

With all due respect to the Minister's interjection, I should like to point out that the members of the Cork Corporation have been trying to prevail on the Department not to be so strict in their specifications as to density, or as to the type of houses permitted. We have in Cork many old types of terraced dwellings and there is still room for many more of these. We have not been given permission to erect these houses, even though there is a demand for them from the people and a genuine desire on the part of the corporation to erect them. Therefore, I do not think the Minister is quite right in trying to suggest that the Department will give Cork Corporation carte blanche to erect any type of houses they like. If more small terrace-type houses were erected, it would facilitate the solution of the housing problem as it exists in Cork. I will not dwell any longer on that problem, because everybody knows how serious it is, with over 3,000 families waiting for houses and the list increasing all the time, as newly-weds come along.

I wish to refer to another aspect of housing in relation to a question I addressed to the Minister yesterday and which I also addressed to him six months ago, that is, the proper completion of roads, sidewalks and other amenities in housing estates and in parks in the Cork suburban areas. The local authority, in this case the Cork County Council, slipped up to a large extent in permitting these houses to be erected without any specifications as to the laying of roads and footpaths and the provision of public lighting. There are all around Cork city, within the county council's administrative area, housing estates and parks built privately, the road surfaces and footpath surfaces of which are in a shocking condition. Many of these estates have been built for upwards of ten years.

To a certain extent, the blame could possibly be laid on the individuals who built the houses or who had the houses built for them, in not having provided in their contracts for the proper completion of the road surfaces. Unfortunately, many of those people were young newly-married people or people contemplating marriage and it would be difficult to expect they would think of making provision for such things in their contracts. The position is that many of these park houses and estates have been built for ten years and the road surfaces are still covered with pot holes. Added to that is the fact that no public lighting has been provided, so that these places are a positive danger to life and limb in the winter time.

This would seem to be entirely a matter in which the local authority should assume responsibility for putting these roads in proper condition. However, they seem to adopt the attitude of saying to the builder or to the owner of the land on which the houses are built that they will assume that responsibility only when the roads have been put into a state of repair as suggested in their specification. In many of these cases, builders are "spec." builders and in some cases they have now disappeared from the scene, with the result that the owners of the houses have no redress, other than through the local authority.

For the very obvious reason of finance, the local authority will not undertake the proper completion of these roads, with the result that these people have been paying rates for many years—many of them have gone past the seven year remission period —for services they do not get. They get no public lighting, no proper roads and no sidewalks. The only service they do get is water and possibly the emptying of refuse bins. These people are living in shocking conditions and I know many of them, living in parks and estates, who are afraid in winter time to go out at night because they could not find their way home over unlit, badly constructed roads. I urge the Minister to take the matter in hands.

The remedy may not be in the interests of the people who occupy the houses, inasmuch as they may have to pay something to have these roads properly surfaced. However, the fact remains they are paying high rates and getting no commensurate services. In many cases, county council housing schemes adjoin these parks and estates. Before the tenants go into the local authority schemes, they are provided with beautiful concrete roads and sidewalks, while the people who pay a good share of the cost, not alone of the houses but of the roads and sidewalks as well, are denied these amenities.

It is no encouragement to such people to have to live in such conditions. Steps have now been taken by the Cork Corporation, as the town planning authority for the entire area, to ensure that no builder will get away with that kind of activity, by pulling a fast one on the unfortunate people who put up their money, by loan or otherwise, to have houses built. From now on, the builders or the ground landlords will have to make roads up to a certain standard to enable the local authority to maintain them.

I believe I am in order here in referring to road traffic regulations. The remarks I intend making concern the lighting of vehicles on public roads. I think the Minister for Local Government has power to prescribe that certain dimming devices be put on cars and to ensure that they be maintained in them.

Mr. O'Donnell

That is the law. They must have dimming devices and they must have them in working order.

Mr. J. Lynch

I think it is the Minister's responsibility to make the necessary Orders under that regulation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think that is a matter for the Minister for Justice.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am reasonably certain it is the Minister for Local Government who makes these Orders.

Mr. O'Donnell

I deal with the erection of road signs, but not the making of by-laws governing the lighting of motor cars.

Mr. J. Lynch

I might be nearly in order in saying to the Minister, if he has the responsibility, that he should ensure that lights on motor cars be not more than a certain candle power.

Mr. O'Donnell

It does not come within my authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may raise it on the Estimate for the Department of Justice.

Mr. J. Lynch

I was genuinely under the impression it was the Minister's responsibility. I shall end by expressing the hope that the Minister will give attention to the last problem I mentioned. I hope he will not pursue the line he adopted in replying to the question Deputy McGrath and I asked in the House yesterday. I hope he will give an assurance to those people that something more positive will be done or that he will require the local authority to do something more positive on behalf of those people.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. P.J. Burke

There are a number of aspects of this Estimate with which I should like to deal. Numerous people have applied for Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act loans as far back as last October, November, January, February and March. These people were making arrangements to get married.

Mr. O'Donnell

I hope not in February or March.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Overnight——

Mr. O'Donnell

Or overnight, either.

Mr. P.J. Burke

——they found that the rates of interest had increased. I was dealing with the same situation when my colleague, Deputy Smith, was Minister for Local Government. I attended a number of meetings at that time and there were extremists of the Minister's Party present. I was told on that occasion that there was no necessity to increase the loans or the loan charges. I was told what I was saying was all codology, but I will say that every person who made application for these small dwellings loans up to the date the Minister for Local Government announced that the loan charges had increased—all these applications were honoured, some even as late as the following January, and applicants were given the loans at the old rate of interest. I would ask the present Minister to follow that precedent as far as possible.

I have to deal with both city and county and I find myself in a somewhat invidious position in dealing with two local authorities in the one constituency. To show what the present position is, I will cite just one case. It is the case of a man who got half his loan prior to the 10th March, actually received it, and his solicitor was notified then that the other half would be sent on immediately. After 10th March, his solicitor was notified that, for the second half of the loan, he would be charged the increased rate of interest. So we find it goes to this kind of hair-splitting. I hold that is not fair to the people.

I have great sympathy with these people who are buying their homes. In County Dublin, many of these people find they are not able to carry on after six or seven years and come looking for corporation houses again. Only this very day, I had to deal with the case of a man who was about to be evicted. These situations arise because the outgoings of these people after seven years are about £3 10s. a week and one requires a fairly decent salary to meet that expense. Whether we like it or not, we are crippling the citizen who is trying to provide a home for himself.

All along the city boundary, thousands of these people have purchased their own houses to find after a few years that it is impossible for them to carry on, and, on top of that, they find interest rates going up. I hold that, where a man makes application for a loan on a particular basis and budgets to meet the demands that will be made on him on that basis and who then finds that the rate of interest changes within a short time and that charges have gone up, in ordinary justice, that man's claim to have his loan granted on the terms he originally sought should be recognised. I appeal to the present Minister and the Government to meet the claims made by such people, whose difficulties are great enough, apart from all this.

I do not want to be humorous, but tenants of such houses have come to me to ask if they could get corporation houses. Many of them, through unemployment or sickness or something else, and even others on permanent salary, find, after a few years, that it is very hard for them to carry on. I believe these types of people are the hardest hit in our community. It is very nice to say that the State has tried to relieve the burden on these people by giving them substantial grants, but I would ask the Minister now to ensure that any person who made an application on or before 10th March should get the loan at the old rate, and I am asking no more than is fair. Even where the loan is given at the old rate, there is this hair-splitting I have pointed out to the Minister, in the case where half the loan is given by the county council at the old rate and then the applicant is told that the other half will be at the new rate. I hold that the Government should have notified the people of the impending change a considerable time in advance, so that they would not be left in the present difficulty.

The position, not only as regards the people who have committed themselves to buy houses, but as regards contractors who have bought land, spent money on developing it, who may have obtained overdrafts from their banks, is genuinely serious in the City and County of Dublin, as far as they are concerned.

I listened to the Parliamentary Secretary criticising my colleague, Deputy Briscoe, and it is very easy to come in and get all hot and bothered and say that Deputy Briscoe did this or that—I think one of the words used was that Deputy Briscoe "sabotaged" the matter. I believe no Deputy would be associated with trying to sabotage anything which is in the interests of the nation. I would give that credit to Deputies on all sides of the House, but when we are forced into the position by the people whom we represent who come and ask us what we are doing in Leinster House, we have to come in here and be critical.

I say that the responsibility in this matter is on the Government. The Government should make the situation clear to the people concerned. Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council, irrespective of any statements made by the Taoiseach or the Minister, are not sure if they will get sufficient loans to carry on, and I ask the Minister and the Government once and for all to make a definite statement on the matter. If the Government are not able to meet the situation, they should say so clearly and should not allow people to go ahead and then cut down day after day as things go on. There are tradesmen leaving the country every day who had plenty of work here for the last few years. They do not want to go on the dole and they are going to England. I have here numerous statements from contractors with which I am not going to bore the House, but they all tell the same story.

Mr. O'Donnell

Will the Deputy give us the names of the contractors?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It would be better if names were not mentioned.

Mr. Smith

Everyone knows there were dozens of contractors in this city and county who had to give up.

Mr. O'Donnell

Remember the day will arrive when no houses will be built in this city or county. We will reach saturation point.

Mr. Smith

And who is responsible?

Mr. O'Donnell

I am stating a fact.

[Interruptions.]

Mr. Smith

I do not know how the Minister has the audacity to sit in this House and make a statement for the public outside, knowing that it is not correct or true.

Mr. O'Donnell

Who is to blame for it? Deputy Briscoe?

Mr. Smith

Do not be annoying us, for God's sake. Do not treat us like children.

Mr. O'Donnell

You should not try to be the schoolmaster, because we are not spoiled children.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Burke should be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. P.J. Burke

That is a very unworthy statement for the Minister to make about Deputy Briscoe. How could Deputy Briscoe be responsible for the chaotic conditions in housing in Dublin City and County? That is utter nonsense. It is an unworthy statement for the Minister to make about anybody.

I have received statements from a number of contractors. One of them is in the following terms:—

"I am writing to you in the hope that you can use your good offices to draw attention to the position of builders and their employees in and around the City of Dublin.

It is estimated that the building work at present in hands by private builders is 15 per cent. of what it normally is at this time of year. As a result builders had to dismiss their staff accordingly.

The total number employed in Dublin both directly and indirectly in the building trade is 15,000 and of this number it is reliably estimated that 4,000 men have already gone to Britain and approximately another 3,000 to 4,000 will be dismissed if funds are not forthcoming at once. I now refer you to the Times outlined in red. What seems to be completely misunderstood by the people responsible in the Government is that builders buy and develop their lands the year before they build as the actual building of a house is, to the average organised builder, a matter of a week's work or so. As a result of the present loan difficulty, builders are ‘caught’ with lands developed and banks pressing for overdrafts to be reduced. If the situation is not cleared immediately many builders will fail in business and the remainder will lose confidence in their business.”

Mr. O'Donnell

If the Deputy will not give us the name of the writer, will he let me see the letter?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I will give the Minister the letter.

Mr. O'Donnell

Good.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The letter continues as follows:—

"I refer above to a misunderstanding by Government but upon examination it seems different. The corporation asked for £10,000,000 which the Minister for Local Government reduced to £6,000,000 knowing well that S.D.A.A. would suffer. A loan of £1,000,000 on such conditions that only two out of 11 prospective purchasers finally get a loan—this clearly indicates that a policy deliberately designed to hold up housing is contemplated.

We see in the Press numerous public announcements to the effect that housing will not be held up for the lack of money but up to this day there has been no progress made in the formation of the tripartite arrangements whereby building societies would advance loans to the over £520 per annum class."

Mr. O'Donnell

Read to-day's Independent.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The letter continues as follows:

"It is well known by all persons concerned that a similar arrangement in Britain took at least 18 months to inaugurate and it would be futile to think it would take us less time.

I think, in fairness to our creditors, not least of all the banks, who have advanced large sums of money, are deserving of a publicly announced statement setting forth the future position of housing loans."

The Minister can have this letter and all the other relevant facts and I wish him luck with them and I hope he will be able to satisfy the people on whose behalf I speak.

With reference to the statement in to-day's paper, to me it is only begging the question. We are not getting anywhere at all with these statements. Statements and pronouncements have been made by responsible Ministers and contradictory statements have been made so often that I am afraid the dignity of the House is lowered by cheap statements. It is time that we faced up to the position and the people were told what the position is and what will have to be done to deal with it. I do not want the people's confidence undermined by statements to the effect that a Deputy is responsible for the critical position that obtains. That is utter nonsense and everybody in the House knows it is nonsense.

It is no pleasure to me to have to speak on a matter of this kind. No Deputy wants to say anything harsh about other Deputies. No matter what our political views may be, individually, we respect one another for what we are.

I should like a check to be made on the statement in the letter which I have given to the Minister that there are thousands of men going to Britain. That is absolutely true. They are going from my constituency as well as from the Borough of Dublin and I want the Government to state what the facts are and to tell the people what they will do and not to deceive them any longer.

I want to claim the indulgence of the Chair for a moment and to go back again to the first point I made with reference to the applications already made for small dwelling loans and to ask that they at least will be honoured.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy made that point very clearly already.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I did, but I am anxious to impress it on the Minister and on the Government. I want to say again that Deputy Smith honoured even the borderline case as well as the case he was sure of.

Mr. O'Donnell

That is the third time the Deputy said that.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I want now to come to a point that I have mentioned on every Estimate for Local Government since I came into this House. I want the Minister to ask Dublin County Council—I have asked them—what they propose to do to install a water scheme into North County Dublin. Would the Minister favourably consider appointing a regional director or somebody who would take an interest in making a water scheme available for North County Dublin?

Mr. O'Donnell

I have denuded myself of those dictatorial powers.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am very sorry the Minister did so in this case. I have asked in this House for regional committees to be appointed to deal with water supplies alone. There are districts in North County Dublin that are tourist centres—Skerries, Balbriggan, Rush and a number of other areas— and we have failed miserably to put a decent water supply into those areas. I should like the responsibility for bringing a water supply to those districts to be placed on a regional water committee and that it would be their specific duty. So long as it is left to Dublin County Council, it will be just one more scheme under their care and no progress will be made. I should like to see consulting engineers appointed to deal with this matter. One was appointed a few years ago. I do not know what the report he made, but we see no result of it in North County Dublin. There are warnings now of a shortage of water. What will the position be in July, when the fine weather comes?

Mr. O'Donnell

Surely this would be more appropriate to a debate on a Local Government Bill than on the Estimate?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I take it that the Department provides the money.

Mr. Allen

They give grants.

Mr. P.J. Burke

And they cut the grants by £45,000 this year. That is only in keeping with the times. It is distressing to see, after 30 years of native government, that we still have places with a couple of thousand of a population depending on the old well— and, indeed, some of them are miserable old wells, too. Half the time they are out of order and half the time they are dry. The Minister for Local Government has said he has divested himself of all dictatorial powers and left the matter to local authorities. If that is so, then we are wasting our time in this House——

Mr. Smith

What Minister would want a dry well, anyhow?

Mr. O'Donnell

None that I know of. Why did you not ask your colleague about it, when your Party were in office for 16 years?

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Minister's Party has been in office for five years now. They have not contributed very much in that period, except to make things worse than they were.

Mr. Allen

The wells are still dry.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Adequate and suitable water supplies in every area are essential to the public health. I am very perturbed that no worthwhile provision has been made, except to have a survery carried out. Then the Minister tells this House that he has divested himself of all dictatorial powers. If he has divested himself of all dictatorial powers in relation to such an important matter, then I think it is completely wrong.

When giving grants for main roads, trunk roads and third class roads, I should like the Minister to make a specific allocation of grants for cul-de-sac roads.

Mr. O'Donnell

I have no legal authority to do it.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I think a Bill was passed here about the matter.

Mr. O'Donnell

Yes, if the local authority take over the road. Then I can give a grant, but not otherwise.

Mr. Smith

From what source would you give the grant in that case?

Mr. O'Donnell

They can take it out of the county road allocation. It is a matter for the local authorities.

Mr. Smith

I thought you said you could make a grant.

Mr. O'Donnell

I cannot make a grant, until they acquire the road. Then they can make an allocation.

Mr. Smith

That would be looking for a direct grant.

Mr. O'Donnell

Nothing can be done, until they take over the road.

Mr. P.J. Burke

This is another of the Kathleen Mavourneen systems. It is almost like the water position. There are cul-de-sac roads in my constituency and you would require an aeroplane to get up some of them.

Mr. O'Donnell

Why do you not take them over?

Mr. Smith

Maybe it would be easier to fly over them.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The local authority want a number of these roads to be improved before they take them over. To expedite the matter, could the Minister not consider saying—even if it were only a request—that, of the grants he is giving, it would be well if it were possible to allocate so much towards cul-de-sac roads?

Mr. O'Donnell

It is not legal to do it. I cannot do it without statutory authority.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Then I would ask the Minister to get that statutory authority. Another problem which partially concerns the Minister arises where Dublin Corporation have taken over big slices of County Dublin and a number of cottage tenants are anxious to purchase their houses, if they are repaired. I feel that Dublin County Council are very slow in carrying out these repairs, because, if they were carried out, these people would purchase the houses. I understand the dead-line is 31st March next. A number of people who already have purchased their houses are anxious to get sewerage and water facilities. I understand from the Department of Local Government that they can have this work carried out with the aid of a reconstruction grant. I know a few who have applied, but I do not know anybody who has availed of it yet. I should like the Minister to make inquiries from the Dublin County Council as to when these cottages will be repaired, what they are doing to repair them and whether or not they have enough staff. There is much dilly-dallying at the moment.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy can find that out by a simple question under the County Management Act.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Has the Minister any authority?

Mr. O'Donnell

None.

Mr. P.J. Burke

It would be better for me to be at home——

Mr. O'Donnell

It would be better to be on the county council and to ask these questions, rather than to take up the time of this House.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am not satisfied they are doing their duty expeditiously.

Mr. O'Donnell

Tell them that.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Surely I should have power to go to a supreme authority such as the Minister for Local Government, who is responsible to this House and has some jurisdiction over the local authorities? I have been forced to raise this matter here. I have been as diplomatic as possible with them. People have been requesting for the past three or four years that their houses be repaired. Doors are falling off.

Mr. O'Donnell

Get your local county councillor to ask the question.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I have. Apparently they are as helpless as I am myself.

Mr. Smith

I would say more so.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I hope that the next time I speak in this House the next Minister will not tell me that he has divested himself of all possible authority. I am not fond of dictatorship, but sometimes it is essential in the national and in the public interest. Generally, I am very disappointed with the replies of the Minister in regard to water and the various other things in relation to which he says he can do nothing. I hope he will take dictatorial powers to see that something is done to extend water supply schemes to the towns that want them very badly rather than to be told by local authorities that they cannot do the work this year. It might not be done for 20 years. Notwithstanding the fact that we are in the position in some of our North County Dublin towns that we have an increased population of 5,000, 6,000 and 7,000 in the summer time. I must say that I am disillusioned and disappointed that an important national matter such as water for our people and our visitors is being dealt with in this lackadaisical way. After 12 years of effort I am very disappointed. I am keenly disappointed with the present Minister when he says that he has divested himself of all responsibility in the matter and put it on to the local authority.

Mr. Rooney

This debate, up to the moment, has centred around the housing problem as it exists at the present time. In order to understand the difficulties of the position we must go back to 1947 when it was discovered that there were 100,000 houses needed in this country. We have seen from the Estimate and the report given by the Minister that 22 local authorities have already achieved their objective and have succeeded in building the number of houses which was estimated, in 1947, to be required. Of course, with the ordinary depreciation of houses, further houses need to be provided, but at least 22 local authorities, corporations, borough councils and county councils have succeeded in meeting what was considered to be the full needs of the nation in 1947.

We come now to what has happened in the meantime. It is obvious that while we have not yet reached finality in providing all the houses required, we have reached saturation point in the matter of providing the money for those houses.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Dillon

Half the Fianna Fáil Party is standing outside the door. There is a whole crowd of them outside waiting there to make a fool of you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. O'Donovan

Would Deputy Allen sit in the Front Bench and save his own Party that much disgrace? It is not customary to ignore the House to the extent of leaving the Opposition Front Bench vacant.

Mr. Allen

Let the Minister for Agriculture sit there now for the next 15 minutes.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Front Bench is making a noise like a turnip.

Mr. Rooney

The inter-Party Government discovered in 1948 that 100,000 families in this country required housing accommodation.

Mr. Dillon

If Deputy Butler would sit down at the other end of the Front Bench now, we would have an even balance.

Mr. Allen

We know the Minister is in misery now trying to find a market for the cattle.

Mr. Dillon

I would not get much help from the Deputy if I were.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Rooney should be allowed to make his statement without interruption.

Mr. Rooney

While it was appreciated that such a large number of houses were needed, the question of providing finance for the houses was another problem. We had to depend on the resources of the nation to provide the houses. Since 1948, £90,000,000 has been provided by this small nation towards the cost of providing houses for its people. That includes £67,000,000 towards the cost of providing working class houses such as corporation dwellings, council houses and cottages. In addition to that £67,000,000 for those houses, a further £23,000,000 was provided for the building of middle-class houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. That £90,000,000 was a colossal sum of money for the people to provide from their limited resources for the building of houses from 1948 to the present time.

In 1948, we appreciated the big problem there was and the large number of houses required and over the years since we have had to look to the nation to provide us with the money. Now we are at a stage where we have not completed our housing programme and we still look to the nation to finance the completion of that programme. Those are the difficulties which are confronting us at the present time. Where will we get the money? We got the money from various sources in the years past, but we may not in the future be able to get money from the same sources. In any case the question of providing finance for the provision of these houses, both working class houses and houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts remains to be solved. Whether or not it was intended, it is true that Deputy Briscoe upset the provision of finance for housing so far as Dublin Corporation was concerned.

Mr. Smith

It was the Irish Press did that.

Mr. Rooney

It was the Irish Press which gave the necessary publicity.

Mr. Smith

That is right.

Mr. Allen

It is better to have things correct.

Mr. Smith

I should like to have the record right.

Mr. Allen

What about the cattle trade?

Mr. Rooney

We all remember the very prominent publicity given to those damaging statements by Deputy Briscoe in the Irish Press which resulted in the failure of the corporation loan. Realising the difficulties that confronted us in connection with the provision of finance for housing, it was decided by the Government to ask the corporation to float a loan and the success of the loan depended upon the confidence which the people with money would have in that scheme.

Mr. Smith

I thought it was the increase in the English bank rate which affected the loan.

Mr. Rooney

If the Deputy would take the trouble to read the question raised on the Adjournment on the 25th April, 1956, reported at columns 957 to 970, he will see that the Minister for Local Government pointed out very clearly to Deputy Briscoe not alone what the difficulties were but what caused the difficulties. He also pointed out to Deputy Briscoe the damage which he had done, as a member of the Dublin Corporation, in connection with his activities so far as the failure of that loan was concerned.

We hoped the people would invest their money in the corporation loan which would enable the provision of working-class houses to be continued in addition to middle-class dwellings under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. When that loan was not a success, difficulties arose immediately and we have them at the present time. I am satisfied that, given time, the financial difficulty can be and will be sorted out and that the housing programme can be continued until it is completed. In that connection, I should like to point out to Deputy Briscoe and his critical colleagues the attitude of the inter-Party Government. In 1948, when the inter-Party Government came into office, a man wishing to build a house was encouraged to do so by the offer of a grant under the Fianna Fáil Administration of £45. That was the amount of the grant which a man would get to build his own house.

Mr. Smith

That is not correct.

Mr. Rooney

It is correct. The inter-Party Government decided that they would make a grant of £275 to a person desiring to build his own house.

Mr. Smith

That is still not correct.

Mr. Rooney

I know my facts and I will not be caught out on that point.

Mr. Smith

What about the Act of 1947?

Mr. Rooney

I am talking about the grants available.

Mr. Smith

Was it not the 1947 Act that——

Mr. Dillon

Let the Deputy make his own speech.

Mr. Smith

I will not allow a hopelessly inaccurate and incorrect statement to be made here.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will do as he is told.

Mr. Smith

Not as a result of being told by the Deputy. I will intervene when I think fit, subject to the intervention of the Chair.

Mr. Dillon

Exactly.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Rooney is in possession.

Mr. Smith

Does the gombeen man from Ballaghadereen understand that?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must withdraw that statement.

Mr. Smith

I withdraw it.

Mr. Dillon

I do not care a fiddle-de-dee so long as the Deputy shuts up.

Mr. Rooney

I remember that the Fianna Fáil grant was only £45 because a neighbour of mine was very anxious to qualify under the new housing legislation which gave a grant of £275 during the year 1948. In addition to that——

Mr. Allen

What was given under the 1947 Act?

Mr. Rooney

Further, a supplementary grant, in addition to the grant of £275, has been made available by the inter-Party Government amounting to approximately £137 10s., bringing the total grant to a figure exceeding £400 in respect of certain classes of persons desiring to build their own homes either under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts or out of their own resources.

I feel that the housing difficulties at the present time should not be made the plaything of Party politics. I feel that the Fianna Fáil Party have a duty to the nation at this stage. Instead of making a shambles of the position at the present time by inaccurate remarks and the improper views which they have expressed they should try to follow a proper line in this case and, if possible, point the way by which the necessary finance can be provided.

We noticed in the papers this morning that the Minister for Local Government has been discussing with various insurance companies and building loan societies the possibility of a new method of providing finance for these housing programmes. The difficult side of our housing programme at the moment is under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. I should like to remind the House that in England, where, of course, the resources are far greater, 90 per cent. of the money made available to people wishing to provide their own houses come from building societies and insurance loans and not from the Local Loans Fund such as we must depend upon here under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts.

Here the State has been required to find the money first and then provide it in order that people can build their own homes by means of loans but in Great Britain such people desiring to provide their own homes have been able to get the necessary finance from, if you like, private enterprise, building societies and insurance companies. That is the aspect of the problem which the Minister for Local Government is examining now. He appreciates that, if there is an inclination not to provide the money in the form of public loans, we must look to another section of the community to provide the necessary finance.

It is obvious that if our national loans are not fully subscribed we cannot expect our national programmes to proceed apace. We must expect them either to be curtailed or cut down. There is where we must depend upon other sources to bridge the gap, if there is a gap, resulting from the under-subscription of public loans for these projects. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 29th May, 1956.