Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jul 1956

Vol. 159 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Justice.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Everett)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £63,730 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1957, for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Minister for Justice.

I propose, if the House agrees, to follow the same procedure as in previous years: that is, to have a general debate on the Estimates for which I am responsible as Minister for Justice so that specific questions may be raised. The Estimates in question, Nos. 29 to 37, are all for essential services. They are made up mainly of salaries, wages and allowances, and, apart from changes in rates of pay, they do not vary much from year to year. Accordingly, I do not think it necessary for me to go into a detailed explanation of the figures. The Estimates have, of course, increased in recent years on account of increases in rates of pay, but I can assure Deputies that every effort is being made by way of reorganisation and simplification of procedure to reduce expenditure to the minimum.

The aggregate amount of the nine Estimates is £5,469,650, an increase of £147,260 as compared with the year 1955-56, which represents an increase of 2.6 per cent.

The first Estimate, No, 29, is for a total of £95,530 for the Office of the Minister for Justice. It shows an increase of £3,908 as compared with last year. This is entirely due to increases in remuneration for all civil servants which were awarded with effect as from 1st November, 1955. The cost of the increases in remuneration is estimated at £6,750 per annum, but this sum, for the year 1956-57, is offset by the retrenchment of a clerical post, non-recurring provision amounting to £1,000 which was made last year to purchase equipment for the Film Censor's Office and the fact that there will be only 52 weekly pay days in 1956-57 as compared with 53 in the year 1955-56.

Last year, reference was made to the Adoption Act, 1952. The administration of this Act is proceeding smoothly. During the year 1955, 787 adoption orders were made as compared with 888 in 1954. At the end of 1955, there were 15 registered adoption societies. These societies placed 66 per cent. of the children in respect of whom adoption orders were made.

The next Estimate, No. 30, is for £4,740,940 for the Garda Síochána. It shows an increase of £125,072 as compared with the Estimate for 1955-56. This increase is due to two main causes: (1) An increase in Garda pay with effect as from 1st November, 1955, and (2) Increases in rent allowances with effect as from 1st July, 1955.

The increases in pay and allowances which total £211,452 are offset by a reduction of £87,985 in the provision for pensions and gratuities, etc. to members of the force and the dependents of deceased members. The reduction in the provision for pension and gratuities is due to the fact that retirements in the year 1955-56 were much less than anticipated. It was estimated that about 480 men would retire in that year and receive awards under the Garda Síochána Pensions Orders. The actual number was only 233 and the wastage from all causes during the year totalled 313. The decrease in the number of retirements from the force may be attributed to the raising, under the Garda Síochána (Retirement) Regulations, 1955, of the ordinary age of compulsory retirement for all ranks up to the rank of chief superintendent to 63 years. Provision has been made for awards under the Garda Síochána Pensions Orders to 270 members of the force during the year 1956-57. On 31st March last, 1,369 members of the force had 33 years' service or over and they are entitled, should they so wish, to retire and receive full pension awards.

The strength of the Garda Síochána as set out in sub-head A of the Estimate is estimated at 6,970, which figure includes 150 recruits to be enrolled during the year. The actual strength on 1st May, 1956, was 6,794, an increase of 114 as compared with 1st May, 1955. The overall strength of the force has fallen by 716 during the past eight years.

The Prisons Estimate, No. 31, at £185,740 is £3,720 less than last year. The daily average number of persons in custody has fallen over the past ten years from 683 to 396; the latter being the figure for 1955. When introducing the Estimates last year, I stated I was considering whether it would be possible, in consequence of the steady fall in the number of persons in custody, to close some of the prisons. As the number continued to decline in 1955 it was decided to close Cork and Sligo Prisons. The daily average number in custody in the former had not exceeded 15 and in the latter eight over the past five years. Cork Prison was closed on 31st March and Sligo Prison on 1st June.

Estimate No. 30 for the District Court is for £91,940 and shows an increase of £6,090. This increase is due to (1) the award by the arbitration board of improved salary scales to District Court clerks as from 22nd October, 1955; and (2) the general revision of Civil Service pay as from 1st November, 1955. The increased expenditure resulting from the foregoing has been offset by a saving of £1,500 in the provision for clerical assistance in provincial offices.

I do not think there is need for me to say anything about Votes Nos. 33 to 37 for the Supreme and High Court offices, the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, the Public Record Office and the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests. The Estimates for all these offices show increases which are due to the increase in remuneration awarded to all civil servants in November, 1955, to which I have previously referred.

It has been customary for the Minister for Justice, when introducing his Estimates, to give a brief review of the volume of crime. I am glad to be able to tell the House that the decrease in the number of indictable offences reported to the Garda Síochána in the year 1954 continued into 1955, although the decrease in the latter year was small. The actual decrease was 133, the number of indictable offences being 11,784. In the Dublin Metropolitan Division there was a decrease of 264 in the number of indictable offences but there was an increase of 131 over the rest of the country.

The decrease in indictable crime, although small, is a move in the right direction and I trust that it will continue. The number of indictable offences is, however, very much in excess of the pre-war average of about 6,500 per annum.

There was a slight increase in juvenile crime during the year 1955. The number of persons under 18 years of age known to have committed indictable offences was 2,654, an increase of 126 as compared with 1954. The number charged in court was 2,146, being 89 more than the number for 1954. It will be noted that 508 juveniles who committed offences were not charged in court. They were children under 14 years of age who were cautioned by district officers instead of being prosecuted.

There was a reduction of nearly 11,000 in the number of prosecutions for summary offences. The number of these prosecutions in 1955 was 99,489 as compared with 110,286 in 1954, and 104,188 in 1938. Deputies will note that prosecutions for summary offences have now fallen below the pre-war figure. Road traffic offences accounted for 52,979 of the prosecutions; offences under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts at 17,116 being the next highest, followed by 5,681 for unlicensed dogs; and 3,916 prosecutions under the School Attendance Acts. Road traffic prosecutions at 52,979 show a decrease of 9,031 as compared with 1954. This, as I suggested last year, is mainly due to the fact that there have been fewer prosecutions for trivial offences of a technical nature.

As I said at the start, these nine Estimates are all for essential services which vary little from year to year. This year's Estimates do not present any unusual features and I trust that the House will have no hesitation in approving of them.

Mr. Boland

I agree with the Minister that there is no unusual feature in this year's Estimates. They do not vary very much from year to year, and his is not a Department in which very much can be done in the line of economies. I am, however, surprised that the Minister did not make some reference to the Courts of Justice Act passed in 1953, under which it is provided that both District Court and Circuit Court arrangements could be reorganised.

When I returned to office in 1951, the Department had almost completed a survey of the court areas and the officials were satisfied that, as far as the District Courts were concerned, possibly seven district justices could be dispensed with, or five at least. It seemed that in the Circuit Court, we could have at least one Circuit Court judge less; that the number remaining would be adequate. The Act of 1953 also extended the jurisdiction and we decided to wait to see how that worked out and whether it would mean a greater volume of work in the District Courts which might alter the situation. If that were so, we had to consider whether it would mean a decrease in Circuit Court work. Against that, the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court was also increased and it was possible that more work might come from the High Court to the Circuit Court. In any case, that was three years ago and, while no immediate saving could be made then—it was only when the district justices retired or died that that could be done—I think we ought to be told now something about that provision in the 1953 Act, whether it has been scrapped altogether or whether any effort is being made to give effect to it. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us something about that before the debate ends.

I can quite understand that a delay was necessary to find out what the actual position would be, having regard to the increase in jurisdiction, but I have been making inquiries from people who practise in the courts and they tell me that the position is very much the same and that there has not been much change. It would seem, then, that the case of having fewer district justices and at least one Circuit Court judge less is as strong as ever it was.

The Minister did not tell us what is going to be done about the Conroy Commission. I am not advocating legislation, but I think people are entitled to know if anything of significance can be done or not. I was given a very bad time when I was Minister because I did not do something about it, but my point was that the people whose interests were affected by this report had the right to get time to study it and make representations to the Department and to the Minister. They have had plenty of time to do that now and I think the Minister said last year that it would come before the Government. I am not too sure about that, and perhaps he would tell us whether or not anything has been done. I am glad to see that the Adoption Act is working out smoothly.

Now we come to prison population, and we are all glad to find that the prison population is declining, but I often think—I suppose this happens especially when one comes across a case of which one has personal knowledge—that some people who escape should go to gaol. Very near where I live, there was a case of burglary and the unfortunate people in that house, the woman especially, nearly died of fright. The man concerned was arrested between 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning and he was eventually merely cautioned. I think housebreaking at night time is a far more serious offence than at other times and should be so regarded. I am also told that a number of our old "lags" are having long "stretches" in England and indeed it would be no harm if all of that type emigrated. I am told that is the case, but I do not know if it is true. Anyway, it is good to see that, on the whole, there has been a decrease in crime, but it is too bad to find that it is still at almost twice the pre-war level. I had thought that when the war was over we would have a return to normal, but unfortunately crime seems to be at a very high level still.

Indictable crime seems to have gone down, but there is a serious form of crime now making its appearance here. It is a type of crime which has been foreign to this country up to recently. I am referring to this business of using knives, which seems to be on the increase. I notice that in Dublin in the last two weeks two robberies were carried out by people carrying knives. I think no action could be too drastic to take in regard to people like that. We also have the new organisation called "Teddy boys" and I do not know whether they are the only ones who use those knives or not. It is a new type of crime here and I am sure the Guards will keep an eye on it. It is certainly a very disturbing trend to find these rascals going into premises and actually threatening to kill people with knives. That is something foreign to this country and something which is to be deplored. Of course we cannot blame the Department or the police for that, but it does require very drastic treatment at the hands of the courts when such people are caught.

When I was Minister, we had some very long debates on juvenile delinquency and I always held that juvenile delinquency was not a matter for the Department of Justice. When juvenile delinquency went so far as to get into the hands of the police, it had gone very far indeed. I held that the home was really the place where it should be checked. If the parents did not do it, it was very hard to expect the police to do it. I thoroughly approve of the new departure in regard to juveniles committing small offences. They are cautioned now by the district officers instead of being prosecuted and I think that is a very good thing. If a senior police officer comes along and tells a young fellow off and gives him a good fright, I think it may have far more effect than if he is brought in with a lot of other young rascals, in which case he might become a hardened criminal.

I think that is a very desirable departure in regard to juvenile delinquency. I hope the Minister will be able to say if he has done anything about the reorganisation of the courts or what the position is.

Mr. T. Lynch

There is a matter I mentioned in connection with another Vote but which, I think, is one which concerns the Minister's Department. It is the matter of dealing with traffic on the roads. Steps should be taken immediately to have patrols sent out on the roads to endeavour to make all road users, whether they be drivers of vehicles, cyclists or pedestrians, take more care. Every morning we pick up a newspaper we read of people being killed. I am sure the Minister is aware of the frightful blow it is and the great shadow that is cast on families, when any member of the family is taken away by this type of sudden death.

Deputy Boland rightly said that the courts were taking a very light view of many offences in this country, and that they should not take such a light view. In the case of burglaries and even robberies with violence, we find very light sentences are imposed. I think it is about time the courts took a more serious view of that class of crime. It is appalling to think that we have gangs growing up in this country, carrying such weapons as knives and the coshes made fashionable by the London gangsters in the past few years. It is not just a matter of saying casually that this should be discouraged; it should be stamped out.

Even though it is not a matter about which the Minister can do anything, I think it is a matter for some comment that, when detectives had to arrest two known and desperate gangsters in Dublin in the past eight or ten days, the solicitor employed by these gangsters said in taunting fashion that his clients had been arrested at the pistol point.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that case sub judice?

Mr. T. Lynch

I do not know, Sir. They have been shipped over to England.

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is sub judice, it should not be referred to.

Mr. T. Lynch

I do not think it is, Sir. It is over in England now. It is connected with the "Jack Spot" case now. There is a whole section of namby-pamby people in this country who would like our officers, Guards and detectives, to go up to these desperate men perhaps at the risk of their own lives. I think that the officers were right, and that they should take every care of their own valuable lives in dealing with ruffians like these who come to this country. I do not think they do anything wrong by arresting them at the pistol point, aye, or even at the bayonet point, when they are dealing with creatures of this sort. I find fault with the courts. When the Guards bring such people before them, the courts should take cognisance of the kind of people concerned and of the kind of offences concerned. If it is a case of robbery with violence, or if violence of any sort is shown to people, and especially to old people, by young men, severe sentences should be imposed.

We have a very fine police force in this country. The Department of Justice has recruited a whole new batch of police. There was a bit of confusion last year about the number required. I believe 250 were to be taken in. An examination was held, an enormous number of young men sat for it and a very large number of them passed the examination but the 250 young men who were first home were selected. I believe that that was right. However, many of the applicants thought that, because they had passed the examination, they should be accepted. When there are 250 places and the Department are recruiting, I believe it should be made perfectly clear that it is the first 250 who pass the examination will be recruited. I understand that with the 400 young men who sat for the examination the standard was very high. Since we are recruiting such a fine type of man, I think there should be greater respect for the Guard's evidence when he brings a case to court. I have noticed that in many courts all over the country the Guard's evidence is more or less discounted and not a lot is thought of it. That is not fair to such very fine servants.

Many people will come in here and say the popular thing, but I do not care whether what I am going to say now is popular or not. The Minister should take powers to deal with itinerants in the country at the present time. I shall not start crying about the small farmer, but every farmer, small and large, every man who owns a bit of land in the vicinity of which these people are in the habit of camping, knows his place is laid waste and his fences are torn down. They cut the wire fence, roll it up, take it away to other areas and sell it. They remove gates, they go in and graze the new grass, and in the harvest time they go in and steal from the fields. This thing will have to be stopped. Matters have come to a frightful stage in the city in which I live, as indicated by the fact that 64 horses were counted near one of these encampments.

Statistics say, and results show, that in grazing, two horses are the equal of five bullocks. That is a fair herd to be putting on the local farmer. These horses stray into the new housing schemes in Waterford. These schemes were beautifully landscaped. High railings were not put up there because it was maintained they would shut out the light, and also because they do not look as well as low copings. These beautifully landscaped housing schemes at Cork Road, Ferrybank and Ballytruckle have been laid waste by these people's horses.

There was a time when these travelling men were supposed to be poor people. I do not think they ever were. But now they are in the horse-meat trade and a whole lot of other trades, and there is hardly one of them who is not able to pull out £500 or £600 in ready money. They are going around in their motor vans and station wagons now. This nuisance is increasing. I have read newspaper articles saying how wonderful these people are. I would like to find out the gentlemen who wrote these newspaper articles because I would like to know what they would do if they had a lot of these itinerants camped around their homes. In about a week or two they might change their tune. These people are impudent and ill-mannered. In outlying districts they go in and threaten the farmer's wife and daughter, if they happen to be alone when the men are working in the fields.

In a very bad year I had to get in some barley. I employed as many local people as I could get, but in the evening I went to the cross-roads. There I saw seven or eight able-bodied men of the itinerant class. I offered twice the usual amount, a good dinner and a couple of bottles of stout but they were not interested. These people are useless. They are no good to themselves or to anybody else. I think the Minister should take power to protect the farming community from the damage they do. People in the suburbs of our towns and cities also suffer from the ravages of these people who travel round the country. Until they travel in an orderly fashion the Minister and Department should take powers to control them. I do not want the country to be turned into a police State, but I think the courts, when these people are brought before them, particularly on charges of terrorising old people, should deal very severely with them.

I should like also to draw the Minister's attention to the number of stray horses round the country. They do considerable damage to farmers' places at night. These horses appear to be straying but in actual fact they are put into farmers' property. I think the Minister is aware of what hardpressed farmers in Galway did about this problem when the law failed to give them adequate protection. The Minister should take power to ensure that these horses would be taken and impounded until sufficient fines were paid. In fact I would go so far as to suggest that these horses should, in certain circumstances, be sold and exported to England, and the proceeds should go into the Exchequer.

Not alone do the horses do considerable damage to farmers' property but they often ruin picturesque stretches of country roads. There are two or three places outside Waterford which are now a disgrace because of these horses. I hope the Minister will introduce legislation to deal with this matter in the very near future.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I wish to support the last speaker on what he has said about the knights of the road. In Dublin county, particularly around the city limits, they do considerable damage every night. Their horses break into newly laid gardens and cause considerable damage to the vegetables of people who have gone into new houses and who are trying to make new homes for their families. I have been in communication with the Dublin County Council and with the city manager in an endeavour to rid the area of this nuisance. I went out to Ballyfermot the other evening and found that local councillors have been in touch with the city manager about the problem. There does not, however, seem to be any law on the matter. These people and their horses are wrecking the homes of countless people in the newly built-up areas around the City of Dublin.

I think we are too soft-hearted altogether in dealing with these people. It is the duty of the House and the Minister to see that the people we represent who are trying to make new homes for themselves are protected. It is all right for soft-hearted people to talk and write sympathetic letters about the poor men of the roads but the unfortunate man who goes into his new home is being hurt very badly by them. I should like the Minister to come and see the damage that the horses of these itinerants do night after night. I have received letters from people in Walkinstown, Crumlin, Ballyfermot, Santry and other such places who are continuously annoyed by wandering horses. I hold that we should protect our people against them. If these itinerants cannot be put into homes or made to work, there should be some remedy for the people who suffer from their invasions. I would particularly urge that the courts would be much more strict on these itinerants when they come before them on charges of having threatened old and infirm people. Some of these old people are afraid to give information to the Guards in case the intinerant who threatened them might come round again and take revenge. When such terrorism arises, drastic action is needed so that decent people will be protected in their homes.

Another point is that you have now, particularly in Dublin, a type of youth at large who has a new-fangled idea of banding himself with other youths of the same type. They are known as Teddy boys. I believe that the Guards do not like arresting these people, who are invading dance halls, in case the charge of wrongful arrest might be made. Lack of parental control is the whole cause of the trouble; parents let these boys out to make a disgrace of themselves.

I hold that the Department should put 40 or 50 policemen into plain clothes to clean up the city and county of these brats and bring them under control. There is no use in using plámás when dealing with these people. It is a terrible thing that a decent boy and girl cannot go to a dance hall without having a knife or bottle pulled on them by people going around in gangs. These youths are now going into the country because they have been banished from a lot of places in the city. They have a special haircut and a kind of uniform. The Minister for Justice should ask the Commissioner of the Guards to put some plain clothes men on the work of cleaning up these gangs. Pampering and petting such individuals should not be tolerated. I am not casting any reflection on the Gardaí. They are doing their duty, but there are not enough of them to do what is necessary. These boys would be good citizens if the authorities dealt with them and prevented them from carrying knives and bottles and making a public nuisance of themselves.

In regard to child delinquency, there are two types of child delinquent. One is the ordinary criminal and the other is the child who commits an offence but who needs treatment rather than punishment. I have often asked this House to consider having a psychiatrist in the court to diagnose the child's mental condition in order to find out whether he was an ordinary criminal or was suffering from a mental disease and therefore not responsible for the crime he committed. If he is not responsible, he should be given treatment and if he is a criminal, there should be some other way of preventing him from repeating the offence. Unfortunately, we put the two types of delinquents into the same place, which is most undesirable.

Again we come to the point that the parents are not fulfilling their duty in controlling their children. We have many Puritans writing to the papers about school teachers punishing children. While I do not agree with undue punishment of children at school, they should be kept under control, as all of us were kept under control in our young days without any undue harshness. Much of juvenile crime can be attributed to parents who fail to carry out this duty. Where the unfortunate teacher discovers that a child is wayward and corrects him, the parents object. The teacher is put on the spot immediately and they bring him to court. There is an old philosophy, and it is true, that sometimes you must be reasonably harsh with some people to be kind to them. It is in the child's interest that he should be kept under control, until such time as he is able to distinguish between right and wrong and act accordingly.

I was late for the first part of the Minister's speech, but I understand that superintendents in the Garda with I.R.A. service have got an extension to their period of service. I think the same extension should be applied to sergeants. I do not see why one officer should get it and another officer not get it and I would ask the Minister, if he has not already done so, to make provision for that concession. I hope the Minister will consider the few points I have made. I have a great deal of information and personal experience in relation to many of the matters I have raised. We should be more firm in this House and provide protection for the people who need to be protected.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The first question I should like to deal with is that of legal costs. We have four courts in the country: the District Court, the Circuit Court, the High Court and the Supreme Court. Many of the ordinary folk outside this House and many Deputies have no idea as to the amount of legal costs. I presume the courts are there to be availed of by citizens of the State who feel they need to go before them on one question or another. Whilst it is true that we have a reasonable idea of the costs, so far as the District Court is concerned, that is not so in relation to the other courts.

I have advised many people to keep as far away as they possibly can from court proceedings and suffer whatever grievance they have rather than go before the courts. I have done so because I could give them no estimate as to the probable cost of whatever proceedings they had in mind. It is peculiar that we have no scale of court costs. If I or any other Deputy wants to come before the High Court in the morning in an action of one kind or another we do not know what we are in for. If you inquire, some people will tell you it may cost you £1,000; others will tell you it will run into hundreds. These courts do not serve the purpose they were established for, as many of our people down the country cannot avail of them. It is rather strange that if an action comes before the High Court in Dublin, it cannot proceed without having eight members of the legal profession involved.

I do not know what the position or function of the Minister for Justice is in this matter, but it should be clarified. I asked a question in the House before about the scale of court costs, or whether any scale was laid down that a solicitor, barrister or senior counsel employed in the courts could charge, or whether they could charge any fees they wished—20 guineas, 100 guineas or 200 guineas. That is one point that is not clear at all to people down the country, and were it not for personal injury claims where usually insurance companies pay the piper with fees from the big sums collected from motorists and others, the courts would be practically idle. The opportune time for dealing with this question is the Estimate for the Department of Justice. If the Minister has no function in the matter, he should say so, but, if that is the position, it is a rather peculiar one.

I have had occasion to advise a number of people, where possibly there would be a Circuit Court action, to keep away from those places, that it was very bad business to have any recourse to the courts as they would not know what fee they would have to pay later on. My primary purpose in intervening on this Estimate is to get some information on that point, because the Constitution gives equal rights to all citizens and, if it should so happen that a man has a grievance against his neighbour or any other party, and it is his intention to bring it before one or other of the courts of justice, as he is entitled to do, it is unfair that this question of excessive costs should prevent him from doing so. Everyone knows that those engaged in the courts, as in any other type of business, are entitled to fair and reasonable remuneration for their services; but we people in provincial centres believe that these costs are excessive, and, because of that belief, we do not avail of our rights and bring our grievances before the courts.

In making these comments, I want to make it quite clear that I have nothing to say adverse to the courts of justice. I believe they are fair and impartial, and doing good work. The only issue is the prohibitive cost of availing of their services.

Another item relative to these courts is the one I referred to here some few years ago—this system which was left to us and to which we have held on since the days of the British régime, of counsellors and judges wearing wigs and gowns. I stated here on another occasion, and will say it again now, that many of our people not familiar with courts are definitely unnerved when they enter a court of justice for the first time, particularly the High Court, and look upon these people in wigs and gowns. I do not see why our judges, barristers and senior counsel should wear them.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I hope the Ceann Comhairle has not an unnerving effect on the Deputy.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

We will leave the Ceann Comhairle out of the discussion for the time being. That is a completely different matter.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It does not arise on the Estimate.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

We have been governing our own country now for more than 30 years. We should change the British system and adopt an Irish one. In a country which is possibly the most important in the world, the United States of America, there is no such tomfoolery as wearing wigs and gowns. That type of nonsense was never adopted there. We could manage very well without that regalia in our courts. I should like to make it quite clear that I do not want to comment adversely on the personnel. I have no fault to find with them individually or as a profession, but I am faulting the system. Improvements in that system should be brought about by the State.

The two improvements I advocate are: first of all, that the public should be made aware of what the legal costs are likely to be, and given full information on that question; and secondly, we should do away with the system under which our Irish judges, barristers and senior counsel have to dress themselves in wigs and gowns when they appear in court. It is very undesirable that we should follow the British custom to such an extent, and we should cease to do so forthwith.

It is pleasing to learn that the number of indictable offences is steadily decreasing. That is a very bright outlook, save in the case of young offenders. There has been a slight increase in juvenile crime. We are all pleased to see the marked decrease in crime, and a good deal of thanks for that situation must be given, first of all, to the State, in that over the years, since we established our own Government, it has looked to the interests of the people. There is no need now for a man to go out and steal. Benefits are being provided for him, if he is not in a position to earn a livelihood and, if he has to incur expenditure because of sickness or hospital treatment, or for any other reason, benefits are also provided. The position, therefore, is entirely different from what it was a number of years ago.

We must also thank the Garda Síochána for the present position. Having regard to the figures, I doubt if there is need now to have the Garda force kept at its present strength. Here in the City of Dublin, where there is much juvenile crime and so on, and where more than one-fifth of the population lives, it is necessary to have a substantial number of Guards, but the same position does not obtain in rural centres. When this State was founded 30 years ago, we had come through a war with another country and a civil war. There was a great deal of strife amongst people living in proximity to each other, and it was undoubtedly necessary to have a substantial number of police stations and of Guards.

That is not necessary now because the position is completely different. We have got over the effects of those wars and we have no political strife. During a general election, or at any other election, people will vote for whatever Party they think fit, and agree that their neighbours are equally entitled to vote for the candidates they favour. There is, therefore, no trouble or strife. It is a grand thing to have that position, so different from what it was in the twenties and thirties. As I say, there is no need now for a Garda station in almost every parish, with three, four or five Guards in each station.

The Minister has stated that when he endeavoured to close stations in rural centres he got protests from a number of Deputies and from different people that, if the stations were closed, that would tend to an increase in crime in these districts. I do not believe that position would arise considering we now have a mobile police force, centred in some of the big towns. This mobile force will pay visits to these rural areas and that will impose a certain check on any individuals who may have criminal tendencies. I can assure the Minister that in West Cork there are very few with criminal tendencies. I take it the same can be said of the rest of the country.

The main work of the Gardaí in these country districts at the present time is watching local publicans. Now, we have to uphold the law and the licensing regulations, but I think it is no great crime for people to have a discussion on their week's work and plan for the week ahead after Mass on Sunday, and to have a few pints during the discussion. That is the only opportunity vouchsafed to people living in country districts to forgather and discuss their problems.

As well as having a police force living in the Garda station in these districts, two or three Gardaí come in periodically in motor cars. Where is the need for going to the expense of having both a mobile force and a stationary force in these districts? One or other should suffice. If the Minister does not like the idea of closing these country stations, I suggest that a good case can be made for at least reducing the personnel. Two members of the force should be adequate to meet the requirements of these districts in full. It may be argued that, if that suggestion is adopted and the force reduced, it will have an adverse effect on the employment position. That should not enter into the picture at all because it is not the function of the State to provide non-productive employment. It would be better to have men engaged in productive work. I appeal to the Minister to take cognisance of these points. In making them, let me say I have nothing but the highest regard for the members of the Garda Síochána. The vast majority of them are conscientious and capable men and they do their work well.

The Minister's advice to new recruits made pleasant reading. I was particularly impressed with one piece of advice, namely the advice not to bring people into court for trivial offences. When people break the law by committing a minor offence they should get a warning before they are brought before the local court, which would involve having their names in the local Press and so on. All these minor offences should be dealt with by means of a warning in the first instance; if that does not have the desired effect, then the culprit can be brought before the local court. I think the Minister's advice in that regard is being carried out now. Certainly we are not receiving the same number of complaints from people brought to court for the most trivial offences.

I do not want to strike an unpleasant note but I must bring one matter to the attention of the Minister. Allegations are made, whether rightly or wrongly, that in certain districts a particular member of the force discriminates as between one party and another. That usually arises in the case of publicans. One publican will complain that he is carefully watched whilst no notice is taken at all of another publican. I am glad to state that complaints of this nature are very few in West Cork. In the whole of that area such complaints have arisen on only two occasions to my knowledge. My argument is that they should not arise at all. If an officer discriminates as between one party and another he should pay the full penalty if he is found guilty of such discrimination. It is the duty of the State to ensure that the law is impartially administered and there should be neither favouritism nor discrimination.

To some extent the Minister is handicapped in dealing with these matters because the Garda Síochána is more or less a State-sponsored body now. The Minister has no direct control. I believe he should have direct control. I think the 1926 Act was not a wise piece of legislation. I understood that if a Deputy received a written statement from a person making an allegation against the force there was an obligation on the commissioner to investigate that complaint. Indeed, I understood that an individual could complain direct in writing and that complaint had to be investigated. I hope the Minister will impress on the commissioner the desirability of having the law impartially administered, thereby obviating complaints, which crop up in isolated instances, of favouritism and discrimination.

The only other matter which I should like to mention for the Minister's attention is that the practice seems to be growing among children in this country to play in the streets, particularly in important busy streets in towns. Passing through many towns in this country week after week, I feel the Gardaí are lacking in their duty in that respect. These children put motorists and other people at a great disadvantage by reason of the fact that they have to exercise supreme caution when passing through some towns. The Minister should suggest to the Commissioner of the Garda that where this practice is prevalent—and it is prevalent in many towns that I know of—the Gardaí should issue a warning to these children to keep at least in the side streets, or to get some other place in which to play. It is a fairly big problem and it imposes a certain amount of hardship on motorists and other people.

I want to express my appreciation of the manner in which the Minister has discharged his duties. He took certain steps when he came into office. For instance, he refused to consider removing the penalties on people convicted of drunken driving who were disqualified for a time from holding a driver's licence. When Deputy Boland was Minister for Justice, some people who were convicted by the courts of such offences were able to have these penalties removed.

Mr. Boland

That is not true.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

In reply to a question of mine, the Minister stated that Deputy Boland removed these penalties in almost 200 cases, while he was Minister for Justice. Of course, Deputy Boland was exercising powers vested in him and I am not finding fault with him for that. I take it for granted that Deputy Boland looked into the circumstances of these cases. Nevertheless, if you and I are before a court on a particular day and if both of us are disqualified from driving for 12 months, and then, if the general public see you driving around in a few weeks' time, while I have to stay put for 12 months the likelihood is they will say the law is not administered impartially. I am not finding fault with Deputy Boland for removing these disqualifications: it was the law of the land. I feel sure he dealt with each of these cases on its merits, in accordance with the individual circumstances that arose.

Mr. Boland

The Minister should not have that power at all. When he has it, he is bound to exercise it. That is my point.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Deputy is right to that extent.

Mr. Boland

"Bound to": that is my view.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I will conclude by expressing my personal appreciation of the way in which the Minister has discharged his duties. I believe that all Deputies without exception are thankful for the fair and reasonable attention which the Minister gives to any problem put before him and for the help and advice he gives when consulted.

Mr. Coogan

I should like to express my agreement with Deputy Lynch and other Deputies who said that strong action is called for to deal with the itinerants' menace. It has now reached a stage when it can be described as a national menace, as we have 6,000 of them on our country roads. Every year in my area, we have quite a large influx of holiday-makers, but unfortunately we also have an influx of undesirables, of beggars, and they give our visitors a very bad impression. I hold that extra Gardaí should be drafted into areas to deal with this question alone.

These beggars operate under the guise of selling small religious objects, but that is only for the purpose of covering up. It gives a bad impression to foreign visitors and it is harmful to our religious outlook. Then, if people are not prepared to come across and grease their paws, they will be abused in filthy language—language which, probably, the English do know. In my area, almost every boreen at the present moment is choked with tinkers' caravans, so that the public cannot use them and have to make detours. I feel that this is a matter on which the Gardaí should take action.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Minister for Justice any responsibility in this matter?

Mr. Coogan

I hold that these people are blocking the boreens which the public are entitled to use. I do not think the Minister for Local Government would have powers to deal with these gentlemen such as the Minister for Justice has at his hands. I should like this question of begging to be dealt with rather severely and I am expressing the view of many people in my area when I say so.

Another matter which requires attention is the use of airguns by boys. They are a great danger to the public and it should not be tolerated. You will see daggers for sale in shop windows. I do not know why they were made because they serve no useful purpose. They are only helping to make "Teddy boys" out of a lot of our youth in the near future. It should not be allowed and the parents who purchase them have a lot to account for.

A ridiculous situation arose some time ago as a result of a lorry crash. We had quite a traffic jam for a considerable length of time, despite the fact that a Garda station was situated only a very short distance from the scene of the crash. The Gardaí at that station could not take action and had to await the arrival of Gardaí from the actual area station. On such an occasion, I think power should be given so that action can be taken by the nearest Gardaí in the area, thereby avoiding the holding up of traffic for an undue length of time.

I trust that the beggar and itinerant nuisance will receive strong action on the part of the Minister.

Seosamh Ó Cinnéide

Do réir mar a dhúirt an tAire ar an Meastachán seo, tá laghdú i gcostas na Roinne. Is maith an sceal í agus tá súil agam go leanfaidh leis sin san am atá le teacht. Níl fhios agam cé thuill an moladh d' bharr, ach, fé mar a dhúirt an file, Brian Mac Giolla Meidhre, is cuma chomh fada's atá sé déanta.

Tá súil agam go bhfuil an tAire agus an Coimisinéir ag griosú oifigí na Roinne agus go háirithe na Gardaí óga faoi labhairt na Gaeilge.

I want to take Deputy Murphy to task for his statement that there was a kind of partiality by the Guards in administering the licensing laws. Deputy Murphy should look before he leaps. The Guards have a most difficult task in administering these laws. A mother or father, sisters or wives write confidential letters to the commissioner about the conduct of a certain public house which is being kept open until maybe 2 o'clock in the morning. Side by side with that public house, there may be others doing the same thing, but doing it in a less open fashion. They are not so much before the public eye and there may be fewer people going into them, or perhaps the people going into them may have bigger purses and the effect on the home may be less. The Guards must act on such information conveyed to them. If there are raids, they are carried out in the interests of those who write to the Guards.

The whole solution of the problem of after-hour trading is a question of closing half the public houses. That does not need legislation; it is embodied in the statutes of this House. Governments have examined it from time to time and found it expensive, but in the national interest it would do a great deal of good if they put the Act—I do not know whether it is the Act of 1925 or of 1926—into force. The Minister should also take cognisance of the fact that where it was put into force, it resulted in the position that arose in Mullingar. Somebody there bought a ten-roomed house and got an hotel licence for it, and the good that had been achieved by the closing down of two or three public houses was undone. The other people who had to go into competition with the new venture had to induce the youth, and other people, into their premises after hours in order to make a living and pay their licence and rates. We have too many public houses all over the country and everybody should be able to get a living without keeping open after hours. If Deputy Murphy examines the question again, he will find that the Guards are not being partial to anybody.

He also referred to the fact that the previous Minister exercised certain rights which he had under the Act in regard to shortening the length of time for which the courts took a driver's licence from him, and he enumerated the number involved—a couple of hundred. Deputy Boland intervened and said he never wanted that right. Whether he exercised that right in 200 cases or whether the present Minister exercised it in two, I think it is wrong. It should be taken out of the Minister's hands altogether.

We have heard about the closing down of Garda stations and there appears to be unanimous opinion about the matter. It is a matter with which I am in complete agreement. The Minister might inform us, when winding up this debate, what has been the success of the one-Guard station equipped with telephone, such as in Clonmellon. I think it has been a success. I know that when an effort is made to close a Garda station in any town, the people who get money from the Guards, such as shopkeepers, are all brought together, and there is a furore. The endeavour to economise is frustrated in many cases and the idea is to leave us with as many Guards as we had R.I.C. The R.I.C. were as much a military force as a police force.

I think it was an awful mistake to do away with the L.S.F. The L.D.F. was kept on under its new name An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil, and the L.S.F. was disbanded. We all know that during the war these elderly men in the L.S.F. gave great assistance to the Guards in helping on the day of a procession, or a meeting, or other gathering to regulate the traffic. It should not be beyond our powers to reorganise that force or to get the F.C.A. to act in that capacity. The L.S.F. got very little remuneration for the work which they did—they did not look for it—but they worked day and night.

The F.C.A. is a well-bolstered up force and they have every amenity possible for a voluntary force. They are not like the original L.D.F. who had to rough it. They have cars at their disposal, area officers, amenities in regard to their uniforms and other amenities. I do not begrudge them——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on this Vote.

Mr. Kennedy

No; but I am going to suggest that they should do the work which the L.S.F. did. They could help the Guards and everybody else in fostering the civic spirit which is gradually growing among our people. It would help to do away with the inheritance from the R.I.C. of regarding policemen as enemies of the people. We want to bring that about as quickly as we can.

Certain Deputies have dealt with the problem of itinerants and it is really a problem. Nobody has under-emphasised the matter. One Bishop in the West of Ireland recently dealt with the matter and said it was a problem which had to be tackled. Itinerants were more or less banished out of the Six Counties and they all came in here. We must have some humanity in our approach to the question. To give them their due, some of these men worked on the drainage of the Brosna; some have settled down in the Kilbeggan area. We settled one family in the Mullingar area. The question requires a national approach, for these men are not used to continuous work.

Several Deputies said that itinerants are no longer a down and out class, that they have motor cars and motor vans. We do not begrudge them these things. In many cases, they have a number of horses the value of which would exceed the stock on a fair-sized farm. A neighbour of mine had his gate broken down and his meadows destroyed by some of these people and in another case posts were pulled up and broken. They intimidate the people into giving them food. In one case a youngster got bread and butter in a house and flung it into a drain ten yards away.

The matter has been referred to generally and I have given specific instances. If one travels 20 miles in any midland county one meets groups of these people. They are not like the old beggarman, the bacách, who went about and got a few pence at a house and a bit of bread. Now there are able-bodied men and women going about and the drag that they represent on the community is too much. The number has increased recently as a result of the action taken by the authorities in the Six Counties. They have been unloaded on to us. A commission is needed that would examine the whole problem and find a solution. These people are a menace and a danger to the smallholder and the farming community in general.

I note that the retiring age for Gardaí is extended. I hope there will be no more extensions or any more softness about that matter. A Guard must be very active and efficient. There are reasonable pensions provided for members of the force and they are generally favoured when they retire. In the filling of responsible positions, as for instance, keeper of a racecourse, the Guard gets preference. There is the problem of emigration and the more jobs we can find for young men the better. By extending the retiring age limit for Guards and particularly for Garda officers you restrict the number of outlets for young men and block promotions in the force.

We are very rigorous about certain things, such as continuing in employment Old I.R.A. men in non-pensionable jobs. An Old I.R.A. man may be an usher or he may not have the status of usher; he may be a cleaner in the Department and it is a difficult matter to get an extension for him for one year when he reaches a certain age. I would retain him as long as he was able to walk. We are so rigorous on that point that we should not go any further in the matter of extending the retiring age limit for Gardaí.

As I said in Irish, I am glad to see retrenchment in the Department and I hope that there will be further retrenchment. I do not know whether to compliment the Minister or the heads of the Department or both but it is very desirable that this Department and other State Departments should economise even to the point of mechanisation that would reduce the number of staff required. With a population that is dwindling at the rate of 40,000 a year we cannot afford elaborate expenditure on a very large Civil Service.

It is good to know that the prison population is decreasing and that the Minister was able to close Cork prison and Sligo prison during the year.

Captain Giles

The Department of Justice has been running smoothly for a long number of years and we must congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he has carried out his work as head of the Department. I should also like to congratulate the former Minister for Justice. This country has been blessed in that we have had two very level-headed men as Minister for Justice in the last few years who served the country well and for which the country may be very thankful. This is perhaps as peaceful a country as there is in the world.

I wish to mention one point in regard to economy. I believe in economy. It is only right that the Department should economise but in County Meath there is an economy to be carried out of which I could not approve. It is in connection with the superintendent's office in Trim. The superintendent is retiring in the course of a week or two and it is rumoured that the station will be closed down and that the area will be superintended from Kells, Navan or Drogheda. That would be an injustice to the county town of Trim. The Circuit Court and the District Court sit in Trim. I cannot understand why that economy should be carried out there. I would ask the Minister to see that that economy will not be carried out. Let it be carried out in some other town but do not take from the county town of Trim the little prestige that it has.

The county council have transferred offices from Trim to Navan and I do not want to see the Department of Justice doing likewise. I would ask the Minister to see that the superintendent's office is not closed down. If it is closed down, it will be a very serious matter and the people will resent it very much.

In the course of the last few years we have witnessed the departure of the old Gardaí and the coming in of new men. I must compliment the Minister and the Department on the splendid type of young men who are coming into the force. They are a credit to the country. I hope they will start on the right lines and will be policemen in every sense of the word and that there will be plenty of work for them. There is nothing as bad as to see policemen standing around street corners with nothing to do. There could be a paring down of the police force. We do not want as many Gardaí as we did ten or 20 years ago. It is quite sufficient to have three men in any station and they would have plenty to do.

We must congratulate the old police force on the manner in which they carried on in very difficult times over a long number of years and brought peace to the country at great personal sacrifice. We wish them well in their retirement and long life and happiness. They laid the foundation of peace in this country and deserve every credit from the nation.

Many Deputies referred to the itinerant menace. It is a menace that is growing year after year and the Minister and his Department must do something about it. I am not referring to the type of beggarmen who travel the roads or the mentally-afflicted people. They are God's children and they have always been with us and always will be. There is a new class of itinerant growing up now, a gipsy-tinker class, with motor cars and hordes of goats, mules and jennets blocking the roads. Many of them have come from the North in recent years. I would ask the Department to do something about them. They are a menace to the farmers and to the housewives. I know that we cannot drive them off the roads—they must live somewhere—but there should be some consultation between the Department of Justice and the Department of Local Government as to the possibility of building houses for some of these people and getting them to settle down. The Church also has a duty in this matter. Many of these people are savages who do not believe in God or man, who cannot read or write. That should not be tolerated in a should stop this menace before it reaches alarming proportions.

It is only a few months ago since there was a violent scene at Trim Court where some people were brought up for knife-stabbing. When the court was in session and hundreds of people sitting around and the judge was on his bench these people got into a complete brawl with knives and inflicted severe wounds on one another. That was one of the ugliest scenes that ever took place. It happened because of the squalor in which these people live, the amount of drink they consume and the bitterness and hatred which they have for one another. It was a horrible thing and should never have been allowed to happen. It was real gang warfare.

The Minister should do something about it and break up these gangs. When these people are only in small gangs they can easily be controlled but when they are in large gangs they are a complete menace. You will find their mules, jennets and old horses lying across the road and walking along the roads. They will not give way and it is the driver of a car who must almost get up on the ditch in order to get by. If you meet these people on a lonely road at night the men and women will jeer and sneer at you and the children will throw stones at the people passing by. This kind of thing has been going on far too long without anything being done about it. It is time now to lay a foundation and get these people off the roads, and get them permanently settled down in houses in the towns.

Deputy P.J. Burke was quite right in what he said about the Teddy boys. That is another threatened menace. There is not a large town throughout the country where you have not got 20 or 30 of them with their clipped hair, pants made in a certain style, going around among the people with their lady friends in slacks, and causing a great deal of trouble. They are nothing but a pack of brats but where they can get away with it they can become as much a menace as the itinerants. They are a menace to the people and, if the forces of the law do not do it, the people will take matters into their own hands and deal with them themselves. There is no use in allowing the people to be intimidated. You find separate groups of these fellows going around who never did a day's work in their lives and never have a bob in their pockets but if they can intimidate people they will do so. It is time that an end was put to this menace.

I am satisfied that the Department is being well run and I congratulate the present and the past Minister for keeping level heads and doing their work so well. They have used great judgment in dealing with certain matters and it is something to be proud of that the two men who have last occupied this position have used good, broad judgment. I congratulate the present Minister on the stand he has taken against drunken driving. The nation is behind him in that and I hope he will keep to that stand.

Mr. Blaney

Some of the information which we were given here to-day with regard to the economies that have been made during the past year gives us hope that some retrenchment in public expenditure is being effected. Unfortunately, while we can see from the figures the Minister has given us with regard to the closing of prisons, reductions in the cost of clerical staffs and the closing down of outlying stations there has been some improvement, the unfortunate position still is that the overall figures show an increase. That is the feature of the Minister's statement on the financial provisions for his Department that we do not like. We can congratulate him on some of the good things he has done in the interests of economy but we must express our anxiety that the overall figures of expenditure are keeping in line with the other public services in the country to-day. The figures are increasing year after year and this increase, if allowed to continue, in common with all other branches of the public service, surely must bring about our economic downfall and probably our downfall as an independent State also. That is the disturbing feature about it, even though we can congratulate the Minister and the Department on what they have done to try and bring down some of the expenditure.

There are a few other little things that they might have tried to tone down. Deputy Boland has already mentioned the question of the reorganisation of court areas and the possibility of reducing the number of serving personnel in our courts. I think the Minister would have power to do this under the Act passed through the House some years ago, the Courts of Justice Act. I am sure the Minister is aware of what I am talking about and I feel that, where he has that power, that reorganisation should take place. Despite the fact that the powers of District Courts were widened to embrace a wider field of offences or crimes, I believe that the volume of business they have to do is less than it was.

That would lend great strength to the argument that a reorganisation of the court areas should be considered with a view to reducing the number of District Justices as they become redundant or come up for retirement. I do not mean that he should pay off a number of them summarily. The Minister has a certain power and he should avail of it. Possibly it may not mean very much but, added to the things he has been doing, it would help to reduce the increase that we see here.

Another item which would come within the heading of economies has to deal with the Garda. I understand that in the Garda Síochána the procedure is that, for various reasons, some of them no doubt very good reasons, Gardaí and sergeants are transferred from district to district. I believe one of the reasons is that, being human, and if they are left a long time in a district, they may become too familiar with the people with whom they have to deal. Being very human, they may not, as a result, be impartial in their duties. These transfers cost quite an amount to the State. I understand that where a transfer is made in the ordinary way all the costs are borne by the Department, including the carriage of furniture where the member transferred is married. It is only where the person concerned seeks the transfer himself that no question is raised as to his paying the cost himself. I understand that even in that case there is a likelihood that he will get some of that cost paid for him.

I have a suggestion to make which would, I think, reduce costs and have a much wider effect in regard to the danger of there being any question of showing favour as a result of long residence in particular station. My suggestion is that instead of moving the ranks around it is the officers or superintendents who should be moved and moved more frequently. These people are made of the same stuff as all of us and they are likely to make their contacts.

You may find that they cannot help showing some discrimination possibly in the bringing forward of cases. I do not blame them. Any of us would be likely to do the same thing. If they were moved around, the Gardaí under the new man, would have to toe the line. The question of partiality or impartiality would not really arise in many of those cases. Instead of changing a couple of thousand ranks, the change of 20 or 30 of the officers or superintendents would cover just as big an area and it would cost infinitely less to move these people from one place to another. That is something, apart from the economics of the matter which I have already raised, I would commend to the Minister for his consideration. I believe it would be a better thing to change the officers and leave the men where they are in most cases if they are satisfied.

Might I disagree with what I heard some Deputy say earlier in the discussion when he maintained that something should be done by the Minister to bring about a change where he complained that the evidence of the Guards is very often discounted in the courts? Not only do I want to disagree with him but I want to take the absolutely opposite view. All too frequently the evidence of the Guards in the course of their duties in regard to prosecutions is taken in toto and to the exclusion of the chances of the persons prosecuted who also have a word and whose version of a story could be just as true.

I am not at all suggesting that the Gardaí will perjure themselves in order to get convictions but, as everybody knows, there are always two sides to every story. My complaint is not that the evidence of the Gardaí is discounted in the courts but that their evidence is taken into account far too strictly in very many cases and it is in the reverse direction I would suggest the Minister should bend his mind.

There is another matter upon which I should like some information from the Minister in his closing statement. It concerns the mobile patrols on our roads and particularly the newly constituted force of traffic cops as we might call them. How have these people and this new section got along? What good or bad effect has it had? A year or so ago I used to see much more of them than I see nowadays. Are there fewer in operation or have any more been added to them? Have they been sent further afield or what are they doing? They were more in evidence on the roads leading in and out of Dublin some time ago than they are now.

I believe that many more of them would do a very good day's work not only in and around Dublin but in and around many of our other big centres of population. That is possibly a viewpoint of my own without anything to support it. Possibly the Minister has got some evidence to show that might be so but, on the other hand, he may have evidence that they are not a success. They could be made a success and the way to secure that is to have more of them, particularly relating to traffic offences which are very much in evidence these days.

I believe that these Gardaí mounted on motor bikes are the only people who are in any position whatever to deal with traffic problems and offences that are daily, hourly and every minute being committed in ever so many places all over the roads of this country. More of them should be brought into commission. They are the people who go out the roads leading from our cities and towns and see in evidence, what they will not have an opportunity of seeing elsewhere, the careering of people in cars, not necessarily because they are speeding but because of the recklessly negligent manner in which they drive.

As one who has to come a long distance along these roads, the greatest danger I see is not on the blind corners, the bends or the bad roads but on the absolutely straight stretches where you can see for a mile. Those are the places where you find a car coming towards you and quite suddenly, when it is only 100 yards away, you hardly know there is a driver in it until you blow the horn. Then you find there is a driver in it but it may be too late. The most dangerous places in my opinion are the straight broad roads where people speed along at 60, 70 and 80 miles an hour. Apparently they do not mind where they are going. Because the road is wide and straight and because there are no bends to negotiate, the driver may become bedded down in his seat and be inclined not to be too wide awake. The one section of the Gardaí that can keep them awake are the Gardaí on motor cycles—the traffic cops as we call them. Not only would they observe those drivers but they would help in waking them up before they put somebody else permanently to sleep.

There is also another little item which I feel comes only partly within the ambit of this Department but the part that comes within it is the part I am interested in. It is in relation to the dance-halls in the country and, I suppose, in the city for that matter but that does not arise. What I have in mind is that we had a Dance Halls (Licensing) Act introduced here in the 1930's. That Act, without any question, was very much needed. However, since then and as a result of it, we have had the ramshackle buildings of the old days, the barns and sheds utilised for dances and amusement replaced by properly constructed halls with the different amenities required.

To-day in our District Courts we have all sorts of people coming in and getting a temporary licence for all sorts of ramshackle buildings, buildings on which there is no licence duty payable and which have no amenities of any kind. In many places it is questionable whether they are even structurally sound. This is going on to an increasing degree in my own county. I feel that not only is it unfair to the owners of properly licensed and equipped halls but it is also a throwback to the years prior to the introduction of the Dance Halls (Licensing) Act, when special regulations were laid down to ensure that the health of the young people would not be endangered. Insanitary buildings, overcrowding——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would that not be a matter for the Minister for Local Government?

Mr. Blaney

What the Chair stated is quite right or part of it is. But the provisions of the Dance Halls Act which would be appropriate to the Department of Local Government do not apply at all in the case of temporary licences granted by the District Justice for a few months of the summer or during some particular period in a district. No provisions at all, apparently, apply to those people. The Gardaí are asked if they object and if they do not object, and no member of the public comes along to object, these licences are granted. We then have a position which is unfair to the present dance-hall owners and proprietors and we also have a renewal of the dangers of the early 1930's in regard to insanitary and unsafe buildings being used. I ask the Minister, so far as it concerns his Department, to go into this matter and also to take it up with his colleague in the Department of Local Government, with a view to having something done about it.

While we have a reduction in the number of summary cases concerning traffic offences, the smaller offences, we still have not gained a proper grip on the more serious offences that are being committed in regard to traffic laws. That applies not only to what I spoke about earlier—the main roads serving our cities and towns—but also to the general application of the laws to motorists and those using the roads generally. Too many cases of a trivial nature are still being checked up by the Gardaí in certain districts. While that is going on, and while so much time is being wasted on trivial matters, other things are going on involving offences of a much more serious type on the roads, and of which we hear nothing whatever.

The Minister and everybody in the House must be pretty well aware of all the abuses and recklessness associated with the use of the roads, to the detriment of the more careful users who are frequently involved in great loss as a result of these abuses. I feel that a renewed and even more vigorous attempt should be made by the Gardaí to deal first and foremost with the drunken driver. A fair amount is being done, but it is not sufficient, and the penalties imposed on these people when they are brought to book are not sufficient.

That bring me to the second point, that is, the lack of uniformity in the penalties imposed. Again, I suppose, it is a matter which is open to some difference of opinion as between one man and another. Consequently, we have no uniformity in the penalties as between one district and another for these various offences. One district justice may be lenient in one direction and regard a traffic offence as a small thing within his area of jurisdiction, while a few miles away, in another District Court, you may find the district justice who takes a really severe view of the same offence. Naturally the man with the serious view will treat the offender more severely than the justice with the lenient view.

There should be no question whatever about it; no matter what court is concerned, if a driver is convicted of drunkenness, he should "get the hammer, good and proper". There is only one "hammer" to give people who drive vehicles in that fashion, and first, last and all the time, their licences should be suspended, no matter what other action may be taken. The suspension of a licence for anybody using the roads to-day is the greatest deterrent of all and I know Christian country. Church and State nothing more likely to lead to better driving and to less driving while drunk.

There are other types of offences in regard to traffic laws and again if efforts are being made in one district to stamp out such offences, these efforts will not have full effect if in other districts there is no similar effort. While the Gardaí in one area may have some direction from the Minister or the commissioner, or from some public pronouncement of the Government, and may be endeavouring to give effect to that in regard to a particular type of offence, whether driving or otherwise, it is frequently found that in one case the district justice will help by applying the severe penalties, while another district justice or judge will not be severe.

The result will be that the Gardaí who have gone to the bother of bringing the cases to the notice of the court and who have secured a reasonable penalty with the conviction will be satisfied, while Gardaí in another district who have taken the same trouble and have secured the conviction without a penalty are not satisfied. The Gardaí who got the conviction but no penalty will not take the same trouble again and the value of a direction of the commissioner or the Minister is therefore lost. Various instances of that sort of thing can be quoted. It all boils down to the fact that in regard to these offences on the roads it should be brought to the notice of the courts and the Gardaí, especially where dangerous, reckless, or drunken driving is concerned, that these types of offences should be dealt with uniformly and severely. Unless we do that, we are only doing half the job that all of us would like to see done.

There is another item I wish to mention in regard to the Gardaí. It is but a small thing and it has already been mentioned here. I should like to ask the Minister to give consideration in future to the matter of the Garda examinations. I am not referring to the type of examination, how easy or hard it may be, because I am not interested in that. What I have a grievance about, and what I feel quite a number of young lads have a grievance about is that, having done the examination, they are duly notified that they have passed, and then, months later, they are still waiting at home, not looking for another job, feeling that they are going to be called up because they have passed the examination. Suddenly, they wake up one day to be informed that they were number so-and-so and that only so many can be taken in at a time. If they still wish to enter the Garda force, they will have to wait for the next examination.

That would not be so bad except in the case where the candidate concerned has almost reached the upper age limit, and when that happens, he cannot sit for the next examination and has no hope of getting into the Gardaí in the future. I think there could be some improvement in the arrangements in regard to these examinations.

It is most disappointing for a young man, having done the examination, having been notified that he has passed it, and having great expectations that he is going to get into the force and do the job which he has chosen for himself, to find after all that, because of something he could not foresee, he cannot succeed in his ambition. God knows what the consequences of that disappointment to lads of this type may be. That should not happen and something should be done to ensure that it does not happen.

There is one other matter I wish to raise, that is, the manner in which the licensing laws are being administered at the moment. We feel that we may entertain great hopes that in the near future the commission that is about to go into these matters will remedy all the outstanding grievances, and, by so doing, make it possible for the Gardaí to enforce the licensing laws and have them actually carried out. At present, there is absolute chaos in rural Ireland in regard to the licensing laws. It is only necessary to say, I think, that the laws are not observed or, to use a hackneyed expression, they are more observed in the breach than otherwise. While that may be true in regard to one little town, there is no uniformity in regard to the breaking of the laws. In one small town the sergeant is tough. He will see that every publican is closed on time. But in another town the sergeant does not bother and the publicans are open all night. The result is, of course, that the town in which the sergeant takes the lenient view attracts all the business from the surrounding towns and there is no business for the publicans in the towns where the Guards close them up at the proper time.

You cannot blame the publicans nor can you blame the people in the country, because the laws at the moment in rural Ireland are unfair and unjust in regard to this matter of opening hours. Until something is done to remedy that situation, I feel the Minister should try and have some uniformity in the application of these laws. I do not think the Minister wants the Guards to be too strict, and I do not think they should be too strict, but we should not have the position of one public house being open half the night and the other closed on the dot. That is not fair.

All in all, in regard to this Estimate, I feel that, while admirable moves have been made to bring about some economies, further economies could be effected. The upward trend we see may in some further way be arrested but, taking the broad view, the trend is upward and that, in conjunction with the cost of other services, means that our people will be further taxed during the coming year. That is the one thing that none of us, no matter on what side of the house he is, will approve of. No matter what we may find good in the Estimate or the Minister's statement, it ultimately comes back to the fact that the cost is increasing and that our people are unable to bear it.

Mr. Desmond

I believe it is essential, first of all, that we should direct our attention to the extraordinary situation, so noticeable in Dublin and Cork, in regard to juvenile delinquency. While we may complain, perhaps rightly, of the conduct of certain groups of people of adult age, I think it is most deplorable that the youngsters, who are running wild in our cities at present, are to be the men and women of the future. It is for that reason that this matter must be tackled in a very serious manner.

I appreciate that the Minister, the Minister's Department and the judiciary, have always considered it wise to refrain from having the names of these children published in the papers because they think that that might constitute a blot against them in the future. I am wondering if that procedure is giving us the right result. I am not blaming the children so much at all; I am blaming their parents. Are we right to shelter these parents, who seem to be in no way ashamed themselves that their children are being brought into court here in Dublin day after day for serious offences? While it can easily be understood that, because of the age of the children—there is a certain amount of wildness peculiar to little boys in particular— they may not understand the seriousness of what they are doing, I consider that in some way or other it must be brought home to their parents that what is essential is a true sense of parental control.

It is a sad reflection on us in this country that we have to admit it takes the full weight of the law to try and keep a large number of little boys within the law. Therefore, I would seriously suggest to the Minister to consider the aspect I mentioned. I believe we are sheltering neglectful and careless parents, who are in no way ashamed of what is happening simply because they know that the names of their children will not be published in the papers. I believe it may be of assistance to us if we publish, not the name of the child, but the fact that he is son or she is daughter of So-and-so, and mention the names of the parents. Perhaps the Minister would consider something on that line?

Deputy Blaney mentioned the question of the commission in relation to our drinking laws. I should also like to mention our anxiety lest there should be any delay in dealing, through the commission, with the question of leaseholders. That problem has been going on for years and, unfortunately, ground landlords have robbed thousands of people here. I know the Minister is most sympathetic towards this problem. I believe too many years have elapsed, too many words have been spoken, inside this House and outside of it, and not enough action has been taken. Let us be quite frank. Sections of every type of the community, whether they be absentee landlords or the fellows at home, are concerned in this, and it is about time that their wings were clipped in relation to the present system under which tenants of a house, who have a lease of a small plot of land, are being fleeced. The sooner we can remedy that the better, and I would ask the Minister to do all he possibly can in urging the people dealing with this to try and give us a report as soon as possible. I would also be anxious for a report in regard to the item mentioned by Deputy Blaney, but I believe that the report in connection with leaseholders is the more important.

There is another item which must be seriously considered. Perhaps it concerns rural areas more than Dublin or Cork. It is the question of the common practice now of allowing licensed bars in every dance-hall. Indeed, I am not speaking as a person who abhors drink or the people who take drink, but I cannot understand why it is we have come to the stage when people will leave the cities of Dublin or Cork, not for a night's dancing but because of the fact that they can go into the bars attached to certain dance-halls. Perhaps the Minister might deal with this matter during the next 12 months? Undoubtedly, it is closely connected with the shocking state of affairs in relation to accidents on roads caused by drunken drivers coming from these places.

Many members, including myself, have previously spoken about an extraordinary comission. While every car must be fitted with a dimming device, the law is such that the driver of a car fitted with a dimming device may drive the roads like the devil and keep his lights glaring full on without making use of the dimming device. That is a small matter that could be tackled. It is about time it was examined closely because the trend in the newer types of cars on the road is to have more powerful headlights.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.