Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs. – Dáil Éireann (15th Dáil) – Thursday, 19 Jul 1956

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Keyes)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £5,485,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1957, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

The net Estimate for 1956/57 amounts to £8,585,000 being a gross total of £9,108,150 less Appropriations-in-Aid of £523,150. The net provision represents an increase of £592,500 on that for 1955/56. As indicated on page 283 of the volume of Estimates that figure takes into account the additional provision for 1955/56— £85,000—made by the Post Office Supplementary Estimate and the Department's share—£200,500—of the Vote for Remuneration, both approved by the Dáil on the 22nd February last. In making comparisons between sub-heads of the Estimate this additional provision for 1955/56 has been taken into consideration.

The more substantial variations— those of £10,000 or more—occur on the following sub-heads:—

Sub-heads A (1), A (2), A (3) and A (4)—Salaries, Wages and Allowances: The increase of £225,200 is due to salary and wage awards, offset by a reduction of one day in pay days and by savings on retirements.

Sub-head D—Purchase of Sites, etc: Increase £26,000. The higher amount is required mainly for the purchase of sites for a central garage, an engineering workmen's headquarters and stores depot in Cork, new District Post Offices in Dublin and a new South Dublin City Engineering headquarters.

Sub-head E (1)—Conveyance of Mails by Rail: The increase of £30,100 is due to higher charges by the railway companies for the carriage of letter mails and to higher payment to the companies in respect of increased parcel traffic which is offset by increased revenue from the traffic.

Sub-head G (1)—Stores: the increase of £15,300 is mainly due to the transfer to this sub-head of the cost of petrol which was formerly borne on sub-head K.

Sub-head H (3)—Incidental Expenses: the increase of £10,300 is mainly required to meet additional publicity for Savings the cost of which is recovered as an Appropriation-in-Aid, sub-head T (5).

Sub-head I (1)—Salaries, Wages and Allowances (Engineering): increase £13,000, arising from Salary and Wage Awards offset by a reduction of one day in pay days.

Sub-head K—Engineering Materials: the increase, £89,000, is due to reduced use of Emergency reserve stocks and to an increase in the Non-Capital Engineering programme, offset by the cost of petrol transferred to sub-head G (1).

Sub-head L (2)—Contract Work: the increase of £35,600 is required for new equipment for the more economical working of the Telegraph service and for the renewal of equipment at Malin Head and Valentia Coast Wireless Stations.

Sub-head M—Telephone Capital Repayments: increase, £104,074. Funds for the development of the telephone system are provided under the authority of the Telephone Capital Acts (1924 to 1951) which authorise the Minister for Finance to issue sums out of the Central Fund for this purpose. Repayment of these funds is made by means of terminable annuities extending over a period not exceeding 25 years. In consultation with the Minister for Finance provision is made each year under sub-head M for the repayment of the instalments of principal and interest on the annuities created. The increased provision in the sub-head is an indication of the continuing expansion of the telephone system.

Sub-head N (1) Superannuation Allowances, etc: the increase, £39,800, is mainly due to higher pensions, retirement allowances and marriage gratuities arising from salary and wage awards.

Sub-head O (2) Civil Aviation and Meteorological Wireless Services: the increase, £32,400, is required for the provision of Radar equipment at Dublin airport and an emergency generator at Shannon airport.

Sub-head T Appropriations-in-Aid: the increase of £28,274 is mainly due to anticipated increased receipts from the Social Insurance Fund and the Savings Bank Fund for administrative expenses.

Postal Service: mail services worked satisfactorily during the year and a good standard of regularity and puncuality was maintained. There was an upward trend in the volume of traffic.

Letter traffic last Christmas again created a new record. The public responded well to the Department's appeal for early posting. As a result the huge volume of mail was handled expeditiously and that posted by the advertised dates was delivered before Christmas.

In the foreign parcel post service the maximum weight limit was increased from 15lb. to 22lb. as from the 1st December 1955 with all countries which accept parcels up to the higher limit. This extension of the weight limit should prove of benefit to users of the post engaged in the export trade.

The general reorganisation of postal delivery services in rural areas was continued. A daily frequency of delivery and a better standard of service were provided in the head office districts of Bandon, Castlerea, Enniscorthy, Galway, Killarney and Tralee. The reorganisation of the Limerick head office district is well advanced and it is hoped this year to undertake the reorganisation of the services in the head office districts of Bantry, Castlebar, Ennis, Mallow, Waterford and Wexford.

During the past year seven new sub-offices were opened and money order and Savings Bank facilities were extended to 19 existing sub-offices.

Arrangements have been made to issue a special postage stamp in connection with the presentation to the nation by the United States Battle Monuments Commission of a statue of Commodore John Barry which is to be unveiled in Wexford next September. The stamp will be issued in two denominations, 3d. and ? and will be produced by the recess process.

Last year, following the report of a departmental committee, I circulated a White Paper to Deputies dealing with the problem of the increasing losses on the telegraph service. It also outlined the measures proposed to be taken to reduce expenditure on the service and to increase telegraph revenue. Most of these measures, including rate increases, either have been, or are being, implemented.

There has, as anticipated, been a further decline in telegraph traffic, the number of telegrams handled during the last financial year being 2,860,000 as compared with 3,160,600 odd during the previous year.

The modernisation of operating methods in order to secure economies is going ahead as rapidly as the necessary equipment can be obtained and brought into service. A telegraph automatic exchange had already been installed in Dublin to enable teleprinter centres to exchange telegrams directly with each other or with any teleprinter centre in the Six Counties or Great Britain, thus eliminating a considerable volume of retransmission work. Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford are already working through the new exchange. The other offices will be connected to it according as line equipment on order is delivered and installed during the course of the next year.

Savings in staff and increased revenue have already reduced the deficit by a fairly substantial amount, but there has been an offsetting rise in basic costs due to the general wage increase in November last. The loss on the service is still of considerable magnitude and efforts to reduce it further will have to be continued and redoubled.

A telex service, which enables subscribers to communicated directly with each other by means of tele-typed messages, was opened in Dublin in January last. This kind of service had been developing rapidly abroad and there appeared to be prospects that firms here interested in adopting the most modern telecommunication methods would be interested. The venture has been justified; there are already 30 subscribers and messages are being transmitted to and received from Great Britain, the Continent and distant parts of the world. The initial installation of equipment is now being doubled to cater for more subscribers and traffic.

During the course of the year it is proposed to inaugurate a greetings telegraph service which will make provision for the delivery on an ornamental form in a special greetings envelope of messages of greeting, congratulations, etc.

The growth of the telephone service continued during 1955. Trunk calls totalled 13,734,000, an increase of 7.5 per cent. over the 1954 figure. Local calls increased by 5,000,000 to 88,000,000. A total of 7,841 subscribers' exchange lines and 10,203 new telephone stations were provided and 7,000 miles of new circuit were added to the trunk network. At 31st December last the number of effective waiting applications was about 4,200. The latest estimate is 3,600.

In the Dublin automatic area the recabling of the underground network has been proceeding as rapidly as available skilled staff resources have permitted and the scheme as a whole is now more than half-completed. The central city business areas were tackled first and it is hoped that this part of the recabling scheme will be finished this year. Underground schemes are also proceeding in the suburbs, but it will take a considerable time to reach all the suburban areas in need of relief.

Of the total waiting applications only about one-third are in the area outside of Dublin and the bulk of these were made within the past year. At most of the larger provincial centres, applications are attended to promptly or within a few months. Considerable progress has been made in clearing arrears of long outstanding applications, involving abnormal work, which were deferred in favour of the rural call office scheme. I am glad to say that this scheme has been completed apart from two offices which we hope to provide with telephones before the end of the month.

As already mentioned, some 7,000 miles of trunk circuits were added to the system during 1955. These included additional circuits on some 200 main and other routes throughout the country. The underground cable scheme to Sligo will be completed this month and there should be a considerable improvement in trunk services at exchanges along the cable route and in adjoining areas served by the cable. Additional circuits will be provided on a large number of other routes where relief is most needed.

In Dublin, extensions of automatic equipment were carried out at Terenure, Rathmines, Clontarf and Ship Street exchanges and Lucan, Leixlip and Greystones manual exchanges were converted to automatic working. Subscribers in the latter areas are now able to dial Dublin numbers. A new permanent automatic exchange has recently been brought into service at Whitehall and temporary exchanges are being installed at Walkinstown and Nutley Lane in advance of permanent exchanges required to meet development in the surrounding areas. A further development this year will be the conversion of Castleknock exchange to automatic working.

Outside Dublin, new automatic exchanges have been brought into service at Mullingar and Cobh and at some smaller places. Automatic conversion schemes at Drogheda, Sligo, Limerick and Longford are expected to be completed within the next 12 months.

Extensions or replacements of switchboard equipment were carried out at 120 manual exchanges. These works included installation of modern switchboard equipment at Ballina, Tralee, Monaghan and Wexford.

The number of kiosks erected during 1955 was 69.

As I explained at some length very recently on the Telephone Capital Bill, our telephone construction programme will have to be restricted while current capital difficulties persist. I shall not take up the time of the House by covering the same ground again beyond saying that we will try to make the best use of the limited funds available for both urban and rural areas and that the position will be kept under continuous review so that normal development may be resumed as soon as circumstances permit.

New departmental buildings were completed at Kilrush and Rathluire and others are nearing completion at Drogheda, Naas, Cootehill, Limerick and Sligo. Schemes of extension and improvement, including the provision of new public offices, were completed at Ballina and Monaghan Post Offices. Improvements were also made at Cahir, Fermoy, Roscommon and Ballymote Post Offices and similar work is in progress at Carrick-on-Suir, Dundalk, Kilkenny and Longford Post Offices.

It is hoped that work will start during the year on the erection of new buildings at Galway, Athenry, Letterkenny, Loughrea and Crumlin (Dublin). Improvement schemes at a number of other post offices and the erection of several small automatic exchange buildings are also scheduled to commence. Progress is being made in the planning of new post offices for Wicklow, Droichead Nua, Thomastown, Youghal and Callan and on schemes of improvements at Carrick-on-Shannon and Ennis.

My Department has recently acquired a substantial property in Cork City which is to be used as a central garage and engineering workmen's headquarters and stores depôt.

Preliminary sketch plans for the new Dublin Central Sorting Office have been agreed with the Commissioners of Public Works and an estimate has been worked out as to the cost of erecting and equipping the proposed buildings. I am hopeful that the position will shortly be reached when it will be possible to commence the preparation of contract drawings.

Deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank rose from £14,515,000 in 1954 to £15,401,000 in 1955 and withdrawals from £11,099,000 to £12,632,000, a net surplus of £2,769,000 as compared with £3,416,000 for the previous year. Interest earned during the year is estimated at £1,677,000 and the total amount standing to the credit of depositors on the 31-12-1955 is approximately £71,186,000.

Deposits during the year by the Trustee Savings Banks amounted to £1,208,000 and withdrawals to £756,000, an increase of £45,000 in deposits and £248,000 in withdrawals. The balance to credit of the Trustee Savings Banks at the end of the year, including £310,000 for interest, is approximately £10,991,000.

Appreciable amounts were withdrawn from the banks about the times of the opening of the C.I.E. and E.S.B. Loans floated in 1955 and it would appear not unlikely that these withdrawals were made for the purpose of reinvestment in these loans.

The estimated combined balances, Post Office and Trustee Savings Banks, on 31-12-1955, amounted to £82,177,000 compared with £76,967,000 on the same date in 1954.

Business for the year showed a decrease as compared with the previous year. Receipts from sales amounted to £2,105,000, repayment of principal to £1,438,000 and interest to £478,000. Corresponding figures for 1954 were £2,361,000, £1,318,000 and £445,000. The decrease in sales was very probably due to the natural decline in purchases in the fourth year of the fifth issue. As in the case of the increased withdrawals from the Savings Bank, the increase in repayments of certificates—judging from the time when they were sought—would appear to have been largely due to certificate holders investing in the E.S.B. Loan.

The amount of principal due to investors at the end of the year stood at £13,646,000 compared with £17,976,000 at the end of 1954.

I am particularly interested in staff relations in my Department which employs about half the civil servants in the State. I am glad to say that the conciliation council which was set up under the conciliation and arbitration scheme for the Civil Service has contributed much towards maintaining and developing good relations between the Department and its staff. The council has considered wage claims on behalf of nearly all the departmental grades in the Post Office and only a small number of cases had to be referred to the arbitration board.

During the past year the council has reached agreement on increased wage rates for post office clerks, postal sorters, telephonists (male and female), boy messengers, cleaners, doorkeepers and a number of smaller grades.

Consideration of wage claims is not the only purpose of the conciliation council and I have recently asked it to examine the question of staff redundancy arising out of the reorganisation of the telegraph service. We have already taken some steps to meet the situation. Recruitment to the clerk grade has ceased since 1952 and a number of officers previously employed on telegraph duties have been transferred to other work. The problem is to absorb the redundants into alternative jobs with the minimum of hardship and disturbance to the staff concerned. It seems inevitable that some of the staff will have to be transferred and that the prospects of promotion for the clerk grade will be worsened. I have brought the matter before the departmental conciliation council in order that the Administration may have the benefit of the staff's views in trying to find the best solution to the problem.

I have recently established a sub-postmaster's consultative council which provides a means of formal consultation between representatives of the Department and of the sub-postmasters' union on matters affecting the remuneration and conditions of service of sub-postmasters. As sub-postmasters are not civil servants they are excluded from the scheme of conciliation and arbitration which was designed exclusively for, and is entirely confined to, serving civil servants.

The revision of working methods generally in the Department with a view to increasing efficiency and reducing costs continues to receive close attention and some very worth-while results were obtained during the past year.

When speaking on the Estimate for the Department last year I referred to the overall deficit on the working for 1954-55 and estimated that it would show an appreciable improvement compared with the deficit for the previous year. While the year's working did, in fact, result in an improvement this was not as substantial as had been anticipated. The overall deficit turned out to be £246,000, roughly £50,000 higher than expected. The year's working was, of course, affected by the increased cost which had to be met in respect of wage increases secured by certain grades of the Department's staff, particularly postmen, through the conciliation and arbitration machinery, in connection with value of work claims.

These claims are on behalf of particular grades on the grounds that their particular work is underpaid and are to be distinguished from the general cost-of-living claims put forward from time to time on behalf of civil servants generally. Since the introduction of conciliation and arbitration machinery for the Civil Service practically every grade in the Department coming within the scope of conciliation has made such a claim and each year some of them have been settled or arbitrated. The cost of these in 1954-55 amounted to £33,600.

In the year 1955-56 the Department had to meet the full yearly cost of the previous year's conciliation and arbitration settlements which amounted to £126,000 and part of the annual cost of the awards on value of work and other purely departmental claims dealt with, amounting to £106,000. Furthermore, it had also to meet the cost-of-living increase in wages and salaries granted to the Civil Service generally which operated for five months from 1-11-1955 and amounted to £202,500. As a result of these heavy increased staff costs, the overall financial position of the Department has very materially worsened. For the year 1955-56 the deficit is estimated at £510,000, approximately, made up of:—

Postal Service Deficit	£349,000
Telegraph Service Deficit	£308,000
Telephone Service Profit	£147,000

These figures show that, whereas last year the deficit on the working of the telegraph service decreased by £70,000, the loss on the postal service increased by £250,000 and the profits on the telephone service fell by £81,000.

Deputies will, I am sure, agree that this serious disimprovement in the overall financial position of the Department could not have been allowed to continue. Indeed, if steps had not been taken to halt it, the financial position at the end of the current year would have turned out to be substantially worse than for 1955-56 because the full yearly cost of the general Civil Service cost-of-living settlement, £491,000, has to be borne together with £125,000 in respect of value of work and similar claims settled last year.

Having given very full and careful consideration to the problem, I satisfied myself that the Department's serious financial position could not be improved unless the services it affords to the public were drastically restricted or the charges for its services were increased. Restrictions of services, to have any substantial effect on the loss would, however, have had to be very extensive. They would have involved a very serious worsening of the facilities afforded to the public and the discharge of very large numbers of the staff. For these reasons I was not prepared to restrict services and I was forced to the conclusion that the Department's charges would have to be increased.

As regards the telegraph service, I considered the improvement in the deficit as satisfactory and I am hopeful that, with the reorganisation of the service and the more economical methods of working to which I have already referred, the improvement will be continued. I decided, therefore, that, for the present at any rate, no increase in telegraph charges should be made.

The growing postal deficit and the fall in the profit on the telephone service were, however, most disturbing, and to meet these I recommended to the Government that increases in certain of the charges for both services would have to be made. Having considered the matter, the Government decided that there was no alternative but to increase charges in order that the Department's unsatisfactory financial position should be very substantially improved. Increases in certain postal charges were accordingly introduced on the 4th June and revised charges for telephone calls on the 1st July.

In conclusion, I would like to express my appreciation of the zealous and efficient services given by all grades of the staff during the past year.

Mr. Childers

At the risk of being flippant I should like to thank Deputy Doyle who apparently is acting as chaperon to the Minister and myself in this otherwise deserted House. Apparently we have been left the job of getting through this Estimate almost entirely without assistance. I want to say that I regard Deputy Doyle as a very excellent chaperon for myself and the Minister and I hope it is a position he will not often have to occupy.

The Minister has brought his Estimate here to-day and I think we are in a rather different position to that in which we would normally be in discussing the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs because the financial position of the country is very serious, in spite of what the Minister for Defence continues to say in various parts of the country. The Government costs have gone up by £8,000,000. The country itself is indulging in personal savings of only half the value of the 1953 savings. The savings put into the Post Office have been entirely inadequate for the first three months of this year, and before the year is spent I prophesy that the country will experience the full effects of the reckless spending of our savings since the war. We have only just begun to see the full result of what has taken place since 1947.

The Post Office is a commercial service—I mean it should be, as far as possible, a commercial service. It should try to pay its way. It is a form of transport service of an essential character and it should set an example to the whole community of being efficiently and well run. The three services, the telephone, telegraph and postal services lost some £680,000 between 1939 and 1952. They have lost since then £1,500,000, and it is time that trend stopped. It is time that the continual loss should be arrested and that the Post Office should be made to pay its way like any other commercial service.

A great deal of the reasons for its not paying its way are of a purely sentimental and frivolous character which have been completely deflated by all the economic events in this State since 1947. As I have said, we have not yet seen the results of sentimental attitudes towards all sorts of State developments, which have neither had the effect of allaying emigration nor of increasing production but have simply left this country in a financial mess.

I commend to the Minister the policy of being as tough as he likes in regard to any efforts made to him to increase the losses on this service and to resist every appeal made to him to give something for nothing; to resist all appeals of a sentimental character, and all appeals, which under ordinary circumstances might be justified, but which would have the effect of increasing the losses. Let him set an example to the other State Departments of saving money and saving more money; let him set an example of insisting on efficiency, of getting more work out of the officers in his service—getting them to do more work in order to make the service more efficient.

One of the difficulties to be faced is the fact that the Government, for its own reasons, has not set the example to the community of saving itself. They are spending some £8,000,000 more on current services than last year, while the Minister for Finance has gone around the country telling the people that, if they do not save money, there will not be any more capital services.

I want to keep this issue clear of politics, at least in the case of the Post Office. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is now in a position to support the desire of the Minister for Finance and not to allow that loss to increase and to accept the position that greater production should bring greater receipts to the Post Office. When those greater receipts come to the Post Office, then he can see what he wants to do in the way of improving services that relate to production.

I hope the Minister will examine everything in the postal, telegraph and telephone services which do relate to production. If there is anything in the services which impedes production or makes exports too costly or slows down transport and communications for trade and for industry of any kind, let him examine those services and let him make any improvements that may be necessary. It may be possible in certain cases that he may actually have to face some very small initial loss in improving a service which relates to the country's trade, but apart from that, I do give him every encouragement only to expand reproductive services—services that will ensure that this one Department of State, which for a number of years was able to show either a profit or no loss, in the future will be able to overcome the present deficit and to go ahead working on a proper commercial basis.

The Minister has the contrasting alternatives of C.I.E. on the one hand, with its progressive losses, and the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna on the other hand, who pay their way and who are examples of State bodies, which are able to operate, after, perhaps, an initial period, without losses. I hope he will not allow the postal, telegraph and telephone services to slip in the direction of C.I.E. and that he will keep as far away as possible from that position.

In connection with the telephone service, I asked the Minister a question, around about the period when the Telephone Capital Bill was being discussed, in regard to the work of the industrial consultant. The Minister gave a very general reply, but I would like to ask whether the major part of the recommendations, which had been placed before the chief engineer, shall we say, by early April, 1954, have now been implemented or what are the major types of proposal which are still left for decision?

As I understand it, there were only two really difficult proposals requiring consideration by the Minister and his officers. One was the change in the positioning of the district offices of the engineering services. There was a proposal made to alter the districts. It related to the fact that the Blessington telephone service, so far as I know, is still administered from Waterford; and that related to the travelling of inspectors along railway lines and to other factors which operated in the days before motor transport became available. That was a difficult matter. It involved the consideration of personal interests such as the residence of engineers, the acquisition of buildings and all sorts of other matters.

The other point that had to be considered was a more difficult one: the giving of an incentive bonus to certain types of engineering staff. The Minister for Finance has been claiming that he will have an outside inquiry made into the efficiency of the Civil Service in general. There is an air of desire to insist on economies in the State services and to make them more efficient. I think it would be a splendid thing if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs were to provide an incentive bonus to one section of his staff. It would be one of the only examples of its kind, so far as I know, in Europe although I believe that the British Post Office grant certain incentive bonuses to staff. The proposal may not be entirely practicable. It was not possible for me to examine it in detail; in fact, I do not think it had been even fully presented at the time. I would like to ask the Minister whether he intends setting a headline in regard to this desire for economy and efficiency by putting that proposal into operation so that for the first time some officers of his staff would be paid not only a basic salary but on the results they achieve.

I should like to ask the Minister to say a word about the work of the consultant and, in regard to general categories, how far his proposals were accepted. One of the statements made by the consultant, and it appears quite natural to anyone with business experience, was that when workers were recruited for the lower grades of the engineering staff, it would appear to him that too high a percentage were retained permanently on the staff, and that, as in the case of a private concern, there was not the inevitable weeding out of the less efficient members. I should like to ask whether that proposal has been accepted, that the Post Office engineering staff should adopt the standards of private companies when they recruit new workers and insist on efficiency, and that, in common with the general experience of private companies, there would be certain eliminations of people not showing efficiency who would be replaced by others. That was one of the consultant's proposals which seemed to be wholly reasonable; that when persons join the service and become pensionable and enjoy the other privileges of State service, such persons should not be allowed to continue in the service, if after a two-or three-year initial period of trial, they are not going to be good servants of the State.

There was nothing of unusually critical character in anything the consultant said. In fact, one of the remarkable things about his work was the fact that, although he produced many reports, he made no report reflecting on the efficiency of the engineering staff and he could only make the same kind of suggestions as were made by him when dealing with a private company paying high profits and dividends.

I should like to ask the Minister what progress has been made in connection with the improvement of the telegraphic service and the reduction of costs. I notice that the teleprinter service still seems to be slow in developing on a line from Dublin to Galway, and northwards. Can the Minister explain why it is that the development of the teleprinter service in the northern part of the Twenty-Six Counties seems to be delayed? I am glad that some progress is being made and I hope the Minister will press on with the work of reducing the loss on the telegraph service—a loss, which, of course, is being made good from elsewhere. If I remember rightly, the British Post Office, in spite of the higher density of population was at one time losing £5,000,000 per annum as compared with our £300,000 and they were forced to take measures to reduce that loss. I hope that the Minister will try to get rid of that very big loss in his service.

I congratulate the Minister on deciding to adopt greeting telegrams. I hope that they will pay, as they have paid in other countries. The inquiry in regard to them, if I recollect aright, started in 1951; it has taken a good while to produce them. I hope that they will be tastefully designed and prove successful. I hope that they will be properly advertised so that the Minister can be quite sure that he will not lose money by placing them in circulation.

I do not want to repeat everything I said on the Telephone Capital Bill in relation to the Minister's decision to accept the restriction of capital. From the standpoint of making the telephone service snowball in profits, it is a very dangerous decision on the part of the Minister for Finance, just as, when the Minister for Finance put a tax on the oil used by the E.S.B., that was a very doubtful expedient from the point of view of ultimately saving money to the State or achieving a higher net revenue. Equally, unless the Minister is very careful in any other restrictions on telephone development, he may only reduce the existing profit or prevent an increased profit being made. Then the Minister will find that he will have to subsidise the three services to a greater extent from the taxpayers' money by an amount almost equivalent to the interest and sinking fund.

I wonder whether the Minister for Finance has worked out that problem properly. I wonder has he worked it out even notionally, because it could very easily work the other way. If there is restriction in development, the telephone service may not gather momentum as it should and as it has gathered momentum in every other country. If it does not gather momentum, there will be less profits. If there are less profits there will be higher taxation to make up the deficit and those higher taxes may equal the interest and principal on the amount of capital saved.

I hope that the Minister will get all the advice he can on that subject to ensure that this restriction of capital will not have the worst possible effect. I think it sets a bad example to the community. State services that pay should not be restricted in their capital, even at the cost perhaps of some other form of capital service which may be more desirable socially but in relation to which, in the light of present events, the Minister should perhaps take a more realistic attitude. He should adopt a more realistic attitude towards this whole business and insist on a State service which is paying, will continue to pay and will, in fact, pay more. Maybe we shall have to wait another year or two before people really come to appreciate what they will have to face in order to get over our economic difficulties.

I should like now to ask the Minister a question which he was unable to answer on the debate on the Telephone Capital Bill. In connection with that Bill, the Minister gave as one of the examples of restriction in capital development the slowing-down in the development of automatic exchanges in the smaller towns. I asked him at that time—it was difficult for him to reply then—whether or not I was right in thinking that the decision to delay the provision of automatic exchanges in towns of 4,000 to 7,000 inhabitants was made before there was any restriction on capital and on a basis of purely intelligent development? As I understand it—I want to repeat this so that the Minister can perhaps give me a reply now—when there was a no-delay service in Drogheda and Dundalk, Dundalk being a new automatic exchange and Drogheda somewhat older, there was no greater increase in the number of local subscribers in Dundalk than in Drogheda and there was no greater increase in the number of trunk calls made in the Drogheda exchange as compared with Dundalk.

The savings in salaries, therefore, were not nearly equivalent to the capital cost and sinking fund involved in providing the exchange—I understand the decision was made and confirmed by the present Minister—and if that is so, it would be more economic to wait until a large number of smaller exchanges around the area can be automatised at the same time. We would have to wait until the total volume of traffic reached a certain level and, when it reached that level, then this conversion could be undertaken. In the meantime subscribers would have a relatively good no-delay service and an efficient service. The telephone service cannot afford the piecemeal construction of automatic exchanges in rural districts.

As I understand it, that decision was made before the restriction on capital. Will the Minister tell me now whether that is the case or whether the matter was reconsidered and he decided to go ahead with the automatic exchanges, and then decided to cancel them because of restriction of capital? As I have said, that was a matter that interested me very much. I did not like to postpone the growth of small automatic exchanges in the country districts and, yet, I felt the facts showed that, in the long run, the service would be cheaper and better if a larger area were automatised.

I know that the Dublin central sorting office is grinding its way slowly towards fruition. I believe the plans for that office started some time about 1949, or ten years prior to this. I see that now at last there are certain plans drafted by the Office of Public Works. I hope that the Minister will be able to speed up the development of the central sorting office. The Pearse Street office is not exactly a credit to the nation. It is a pretty appalling place to work in. I would like the Minister to say how many years he thinks will elapse before whoever is Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, be it he or anybody else, officially opens the sorting office in Amiens Street. It has been a very long time coming to a head.

I am very glad that over successive years of negotiation the remuneration of the postal staff has been improved. I think that every Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has always felt in his heart that the remuneration of postmen was shockingly low for the financial responsibilities they had. I am glad to see that the final result has been at least some improvement in the pay of these men. It is interesting to recall that in 1939 a third-class postman was paid 36s. 9d. at 21 years of age and, in time, he reached the glorious maximum of 59s 6d. Now a third-class postman begins, at 21 years of age, with £5 16s. 4d., and reaches a maximum of £7 15s. 7d. That is still a very modest salary compared with even unskilled labourers in certain areas in Dublin. I realise it will be very difficult to improve the position still further in view of the present financial stress. But I am glad we have been able to reach at least that level. A postman in a first-class office has a maximum of £8 10s. 7d.

I hope some steps will be taken with regard to other grades of staff. I am glad to hear that the conciliation work is proceeding satisfactorily. I hope the Minister will be able to devise new methods of improving the efficiency of the service and of enabling postmen to gain something from new methods of speeding up the deliveries of letters. If the Minister could devise new methods of speeding up deliveries then of course in common with all modern industries run on modern principles the postmen should be able to share in the improvements effected by way of increased remuneration. I found as a result of experiments in deliveries by light cars and motor-cycles that we did not get very far, but I wonder whether these experiments have been carried out with sufficient determination.

I should like to ask the Minister whether in view of the new types of transport now available he still has under consideration the provision of more mechanised transport for postmen and whether he thinks it would be successful. We have many new types of motor transport available including motor-cycles and scooters. There are over 1,000,000 people in Italy using scooters; they make a horrifying noise but at least all these new types of transport are available. I think the Minister should have experiments conducted particularly in the rural areas to see whether these forms of transport could be utilised to give greater efficiency and to speed up deliveries. If these experiments are successful the postman might then gain by increased remuneration as is the case with other workers in modern factories run on modern principles. I should like to ask the Minister to say whether he will try some experiments on these lines. Experiments could also be carried out in other directions.

There is another problem which arises annually on these Estimates and that is the question of the proportion of postmen on the permanent staff as compared with the auxiliary postmen. I know the Minister has great difficulties even when he tries to increase the number of postmen in a given area. A revision arrangement takes place to improve the service at no greater cost and that frequently occurs in cases where an effort is made to replace an unestablished man by an established man. I should like to ask the Minister whether he has been able to make greater progress this year than in other years in arriving at a solution of that problem. I have always felt and every Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has felt that the number of unestablished postmen is too large and is not what one would wish to have in a modern Civil Service.

I would like to congratulate the Minister on the continuance of the arrangement under which sub-postmasters are appointed on a nonpolitical basis and on adhering to the proposals made to him by the committee. I am quite sure that in the long run we shall all be glad of that system and that it will prove satisfactory.

I do not know whether the Minister has anything in mind in regard to savings but I hope that the Minister, with the Minister for Finance, will endeavour to provide more imaginative propaganda. I understand that the grant has been increased for the director of savings. It seems to me that still greater efforts need to be made to carry out imaginative propaganda. I understand a new savings committee has been appointed. I do not know whether it is entirely under the direction of the Minister for Finance or whether the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has some function in the matter, but, so far as the number of savings groups established is concerned, it does not seem to me that they have proceeded very far. It would seem to me, if we are going to get some results from the savings campaign, something will have to be done about it. The director of savings will have to be given further encouragement or inspiration to go ahead with the savings campaign. At the moment we just have the radio campaign, that is the Radio Éireann sponsored broadcast, which I think could be changed in character from time to time to give it greater interest. We have also the poster campaign but I think a great deal more could be done. I think there will have to be much more imaginative propaganda; one could make dozens of proposals in this regard.

I do not think there is anything else I have to say at this late hour because as I have already stated one could make many suggestions for the improvement of the service in the interests of the taxpayer. I am not going to be hypocritical and charge the Government with not carrying out expensive schemes for the improvement of the service at a time when we cannot afford it and when we have to have one common determination to improve the financial position. This is a time when the one commercial Department of the State can set an example for the rest of the country.

Mr. Keyes

At the outset I would like to endorse what has been said by Deputy Childers, and what I said when I first set foot in the Post Office, namely that the Post Office has to pay its way. I am still convinced that as it is giving a useful service, the Post Office ought to be able to pay its way. If we were a commercial firm, we could have cut off services that did not pay, completely and entirely, but we are a national service, the best we can do is to make an effort to cut our losses. We have some items on which there are losses as, for instance, the telegraph service, which has been run at a loss for many years. It is, however, a service which is essential and all we can do is to reorganise it. If we were a commercial firm we could completely cut out that service. Instead we have provided a good telephone service to replace it.

I endorse everything that Deputy Childers has said to the effect that we must pay our way, and, if we do not pay our way, we should get the money from the people who use the services and not from the taxpayers. I can assure Deputies that we are aware of our responsibility to the taxpayers and the nation. I can assure Deputy Childers that there is a very efficient system in operation in the Post Office and the best possible efforts are being made to operate the services as economically as possible.

We have had to cope with circumstances outside our control such as the increases of wages given to staffs—in common with others in the Civil Service—and the increasing costs of materials. Although we have been set back by the difficulty of getting the capital we needed for capital works, we are, nevertheless, not going to be diverted from our original plans. Some will have to be deferred and others may have to be modified until times get better. For instance, we may have to abandon the idea of putting in automatic telephone systems in some places for which they had been planned originally.

We will just have to go more slowly in the direction of expansions and that is the worst that will happen from the lack of capital. There will be no reduction in the way of current employment, but the people we are hoping to employ on an expanded programme may not be employed. We are not going to reduce or worsen services, and we will keep them up to date.

We are not going as fast as we would like with the telegraph reorganisation, particularly in the West, but that is partly due to lack of equipment. Some of the equipment is on order and will be delivered in a few months. Development is held up because we have to await deliveries.

The reports from the industrial consultants covered the whole field of our engineering methods and organisation. The reports are under examination and many matters in them have to be discussed with the trade unions. The incentive bonus suggestion is under consideration. The recommendations of the consultants where accepted will be given effect as quickly as possible.

On the question of motorised transport, various problems arise. If we had to deliver only along long straight roads, motorised transport might be the answer to our problems but our country is such that we have many by-roads and boreens which also have to be serviced. A man living on a by-road on the side of a hill has got to be serviced and it is not easy to do that by means of motorised transport. The problem of delivery is complicated by the existence of so many by-roads. We must have men on foot to go up the boreens. Motor transport is however, being used as much as possible.

The sorting office was mentioned and I do not think I can say a word more than what I said in my speech, that we are moving towards providing the the Dublin sorting office. Preliminary sketch plans for the new sorting office have been agreed with the Commissioners of Public Works and an estimate has been worked out of the cost of erecting and equipping the proposed building. I am hopeful that the position will shortly be reached when it will be possible to commence the preparation of contract drawings.

On the question of establishing postmen and other temporaries, I agree with Deputy Childers as to the desirability of establishing as many as possible and we have been working in that direction. Steps have been taken to try to eliminate some of the more lowly paid posts, to try to make the posts more economic and to have established as against unestablished men. The departmental conciliation council is considering the problem of establishment in relation to all grades.

On the question of savings, the Minister for Finance set up a committee last December with the object of organising a campaign for promoting savings generally. The responsibility lies with the Minister for Finance, but I can assure the House that my Department is co-operating as fully as possible. The savings campaign is a national campaign to meet a national necessity and we are gladly co-operating with the committee.

In conclusion, I can assure Deputy Childers again that no effort will be spared in the Post Office to get it back to a position where it will pay its way. We are striving to put it on a paying basis, notwithstanding the difficulties of the present times, and I am hopeful it will not be long before we do get it back.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jul 1956