Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Mar 1957

Vol. 161 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Health.

Minister for Health (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1957, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chlaráitheora), and certain Services administered by that Office including Grants to Local Authorities, miscellaneous Grants and Grants-in-Aid.

The Voluntary Health Insurance Act of 1957, which became law on 5th February, provided for the establishment of a board to make and carry out a scheme of voluntary health insurance. This board was established by my predecessor on 12th February and I understand is now engaged in the preparation of an insurance scheme. It has recruited some staff and has under contemplation the acquisition of office premises. In order to meet this and other expenses, the Minister for Health has power under Section 16 of the Act to lend a sum not exceeding £25,000 to the board, to be applied towards the payment of the expenses of its establishment and such preliminary expenses as may occur in carrying out its functions under the Act.

It appears that in the Estimates for the coming year provision is, in fact, made for advances up to the sum of £20,000 for the purposes to which I have referred. On the other hand, as Deputies may be aware, as this provision for next year is in respect of a service to which reference was not made in the current Estimate, none of the money could be advanced until the main Estimate for the Department had been passed by the House and reported. To get over this technical difficulty, a token Supplementary Estimate is being taken to-day. When it is passed, it will be possible for me to consider making advances to the board before the House disposes of the Estimate.

Mr. Norton

Is it possible for the Minister at this stage to give any indication as to when the Committee set up to administer the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme will be able to formulate a plan and approximately when this scheme is likely to come into operation?

Mr. Gallagher

I was hoping that the Minister would give us some information regarding the qualifications of the members of this board. They may have been given, but I am not aware of it. I believe there are many in this House, and possibly outside it, who would like to know the qualifications of the managing director and other members of the board. I believe they would also like to know what salaries these people are getting. I, for one, would certainly like to know that. It struck me before I made my come back to the House that it should have been possible to find somebody in the Department of Health or in the Department of Industry and Commerce with actuarial experience who could preside over a voluntary board such as this and prepare a scheme. One of their main tasks will be to prepare a scheme. That is why I say it should be possible to get an official of some of the Departments with actuarial experience to help prepare the scheme rather than take in someone from outside, possibly out of some other job, and put him in under contract with a reasonably good salary. I may be wrong in this, because I was not here when the Bill was being discussed, but I think the Minister should give us some information on that. For myself, I would be very grateful to have it.

Mr. MacEntee

With regard to the question put to me by Deputy Norton as to when the scheme is likely to come into operation, the Deputy is no doubt aware that the board was established only on 12th February, a little over six weeks ago. It would be quite impossible for the board at this stage to have done very much more than try to recruit such staff as it may require and to secure accommodation. I have not had very much opportunity of looking into the operation of the board. Indeed, I am not yet familiar with the manner in which it proposes to attack the task which has been entrusted to it. I would hope, however, when the main Estimate comes along, to be in a position to be more specific as to the nature of the schemes which will be put forward and as to the date upon which they will come into operation.

With regard to the question asked by Deputy Gallagher as to the qualifications of the board, I suppose the only way in which I could deal with that would be to give the names and descriptions of the members of the board as they were, I think, given to the Press when the board was set up. The Chairman is Mr. James Troy, Chartered Accountant, of 44 Dartmouth Square, Dublin. The other directors are Mr. M. P. Linehan, President of the Irish Congress of Professional and Service Associations: Mr. T. C. J. O'Connell, M. D., Fitzwilliam Place, Dublin; Mr. H. B. O'Hanlon, former Taxing Master of the High Court; and Mr. Patrick J. Shaw, solicitor, Belsize House, Mullingar. I understand that the fee paid to the Chairman is at the rate of £500 per annum and to the other members of the board £250 per annum. The board, I believe, has appointed a general manager, Mr. Noel J. Burke, at a salary of £2,000 per annum, proceeding by annual increments of £100 to £2,500 per annum, and an assistant principal officer of the Department of Health, Mr. J. F. O'Mahony, has been seconded to act as secretary to the board. The Act provides that the directors may be appointed for a period not exceeding five years and the gentlemen whose names I have mentioned have been so appointed.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister might also add that the general manager was formerly manager of an English life assurance company here and that is where he got his experience.

Mr. Norton

Are we to take it from what the Minister has said that there is not much likelihood of the voluntary health scheme being in operation this year?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not think I have said anything which would carry the implication the Deputy suggests.

Mr. Norton

The Minister was not very cheerful—not that I want him to create a riot over this.

Mr. MacEntee

I have not a very cheerful task, have I? I took office on 21st March and to-day is the 26th. I have not yet fully familiarized myself with all the minor details and problems of the Department.

Mr. Gallagher

May I say—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has concluded. Does the Deputy want to put a question?

Mr. Gallagher

The Minister did not reply to one point I made. There will be a managing director of this board with a salary eventually of £2,500. Surely it should be possible to get an official with actuarial experience in the Department who could be seconded to the board, thereby saving that £2,500. I have nothing against the man who is being appointed. I have no doubt he has the necessary qualifications. It seems ridiculous to take him out of a job and put him in when one could get an official with actuarial experience who could do the job equally well.

Mr. Sweetman

What is wanted here is business experience, not actuarial experience.

Mr. Gallagher

I have a fair amount of experience and I am sure this work could be done by some member of the Department.

Mr. M. J. O'Higgins

Why then does the Deputy not get in some actuary to do his business?

Mr. MacEntee

I have been asked to criticise my predecessor. The position is the Dáil has approved of this principle. I was very critical of it myself when I was in Opposition, but commitments have been entered into and I do not think we can do very much more than ensure that, in the preparation of the scheme and the expenditure of the money, there will be no extravagance. I have already asked that it be conveyed to these gentlemen that they are to establish themselves with the minimum of expense, consistent, of course, with their being able to carry out the duties entrusted to them.

Mr. Sweetman

Good. The old Finance training comes out.

Vote put and agreed to.