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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 1957

Vol. 161 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47—Lands.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £1,170,630 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1958, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission (44 & 45 Vict., c. 49, sec. 46, and c. 71, sec. 4; 48 & 49 Vict., c. 73, secs. 17, 18 and 20; 54 & 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Nos. 27 and 42 of 1923; No. 25 of 1925; No. 11 of 1926; No. 19 of 1927; No. 31 of 1929; No. 11 of 1931; Nos. 33 and 38 of 1933; No. 11 of 1934; No. 41 of 1936; No. 26 of 1939; No. 12 of 1946; No. 25 of 1949; No. 16 of 1950; No. 18 of 1953; and No. 21 of 1954).

As Deputies are aware, this year's Estimate for Lands was printed before the present Government took office. In moving this Estimate, I should say, therefore, that, having had no hand in its construction, I am not responsible for the contents of the Estimate on this occasion. Within the limited time available, I have begun a thorough examination into the policy and working of the Land Commission, but it is too early yet to have taken decisions on such major changes as may be needed. When the next Estimate comes around, I expect to be in a better position to give to Deputies an over-all analysis.

On this occasion, therefore, I propose to begin with an explanation of the salient points of the Estimate, as it has been framed under my predecessor and to go on next into some details of the Land Commission's activities and immediate programme, and to conclude with such broad matters of general interest as seem to call for special consideration on this occasion.

The gross Estimate of £2,203,055 for the current year shows a decrease of £8,326 on the gross total for last year. Despite the usual Civil Service incremental increases, sub-head A—for salaries, wages and allowances—shows a decrease of £1,142 largely due to a reduction of 13 in the number of indoor staff since last Estimate.

Sub-head, B—for travelling expenses —is reduced by £2,000 in the light of expenditure in recent years, namely, £31,000 during 1956-57 and £32,000 during 1955-56.

The increase of £3,000 in sub-head G is in respect of a possible increase in legal fees in connection with the recovery of annuities. Such fees are recoverable from defaulters and are appropriated-in-aid of the Vote via sub-head U (2).

Sub-heads H (1), H (2) and H (3) provide for making good deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund resulting from the statutory halving of annuities—which alone accounts for £706,000—and other aids to land purchase. These are statutory commitments authorised by various Land Acts from 1923 to 1953. More than 40 per cent. of the net Estimate is allocated to these three sub-heads. The progress being made in the land settlement programme results in the setting up of new annuities, necessitating additional provision under sub-head H (1) for Costs Fund, and H (3) for halving of annuities. This year it is expected that the halving of annuities will result in an increase of about £11,000 under sub-head H (3). This amount, together with an estimated increase of £200 under sub-head H (1), brings the total increase under this group of sub-heads to £11,200.

Sub-head I provides funds for the improvement of estates taken over for resettlement, including the erection and repair of buildings, the construction of roads, fences and drains, the development of turbary and other works. All such works are an essential part of land settlement schemes. Almost 31 per cent. of the net Estimate is allocated to this sub-head under which the expenditure last year amounted to £575,000. During the course of last year, this sub-head was subjected to an Exchequer economy of some £70,000 and its final content this year remains dependent on the Budget position. I am aware that in recent years there has been criticism of the dwellinghouses provided by the Land Commission. Some new housing designs have been under consideration, but before they are put into construction I wish to get the views of the Irish Countrywomen's Association which I know to be interested in the subject of rural housing.

It is occasionally necessary for the Land Commission to set up a maintenance fund, under the control of local trustees, to protect embankments or watercourses and the capital for this purpose is advanced out of sub-head N and repayable by tenant-purchasers. For the past two years, only a token provision was necessary but this year, provision has been included for an advance of £1,100 in anticipation of the need to set up a maintenance fund which is likely to arise during the year.

The purpose of sub-head Q is to make provision for deficiencies in the Local Loans Fund and Land Bond Fund which arise from the termination of old annuities on acquired lands. New purchase annuities based on current interest rates then become payable by the allottees. The charge to sub-head Q is recurring and cumulative and an increased provision of £600 is required for this year to meet new cases.

Under Section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, the Land Commission, to date, have purchased for cash in the open market a total of 48 holdings, comprising 1,900 acres, for a total price of some £50,000. Such transactions are financed out of sub-head R. Like sub-head I, this sub-head was subjected last year to an Exchequer economy of £12,000 and new purchases of this class were entirely suspended from July, 1956, onwards. In the current year, the volume of such transactions will likewise depend on the Budget position.

In the light of recent expenditure, there is a reduction of £1,500 in sub-head S, for gratuities to persons who may become displaced from employment on land through its acquisition. If fit to work land, these persons are eligible for allotments. The total expenditure on gratuities varies, there-fore, with the competency of the individuals who may become displaced. In all, 118 gratuities totalling £13,200 have been paid since this form of compensation was authorised by the Land Act, 1950.

As regards the other sub-heads, I think that detailed comment is scarcely necessary, as they are mostly unchanged from the previous year or self-explanatory.

As regards the general work of the Land Commission, progress continues to be made in the efforts to complete tenanted land purchase. Of 111,000 tenanted holdings which vested in the Land Commission since 1923, only some 13,000 now await vesting in the tenants. These constitute the really difficult residue of tenanted holdings. The revesting of tenanted land has now been completed in Counties Carlow and Longford and may be regarded as substantially concluded in the following ten additional counties, viz., Cavan, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Limerick, Louth, Meath, Monaghan, Wexford and Wicklow. Over 11,000 of the tenanted holdings which remain outstanding for vesting are situated in the congested districts where existing policy requires the rearrangement by the Land Commission of intermixed and rundale holdings into compact and, as far as possible, economic units as a necessary pre-requisite to vesting. In addition, some 5,000 holdings being the current residue of the estates of the former Congested Districts Board, are in a similar condition.

As regards the land-settlement operations of the past year, the provisional returns show that the total area acquired, resumed or taken over was 27,646 acres, while an area of 27,883 acres was distributed amongst 1,450 allottees, who thereby had their standard of living improved. In addition, 860 families were provided with rights of turbary. Some 500 holdings, the bulk of which are situated in the western counties, were rearranged during the year. Expenditure on buildings, including the provision of 198 new dwellinghouses, amounted to over £240,000. On the vesting side, close on 7,000 properties consisting of holdings, parcels and rights of turbary were vested in tenants and allottees.

The position as regards collection of annuities is highly satisfactory. Arrears outstanding at the 31st March, 1957, amounted to £142,562 or approximately a quarter of 1 per cent. of the total amount collectable since 1933. The efficiency of the collection organisation may be gauged from the fact that the total cost of collection and ancillary work—including provision for overhead expenses, postage, etc. —works out at about 5 per cent. of the amount collected, notwithstanding that annuities generally were halved in 1933 and remain unchanged at a low level. Prompt payment of amount due to the Land Commission is to be encouraged as a contribution towards reduction of the cost of administration.

At this point, I propose to turn to the effect of the Land Commission vis-à-vis the general economic situation at present facing the country. In common with State Departments generally, the Land Commission can and must forthwith set about conditioning itself, within its own sphere of activity, to grapple with our economic problems, particularly our inadequate agricultural production.

An obvious question is: how can the Land Commission contribute to the solution of the interrelated problems of under-production and emigration? The view will be advanced that the Land Commission, operating a land-division programme geared to about 25,000 acres a year and involving an annual improvements expenditure limited to about £600,000, can make little impact on the disturbing aspects of our economy. It seems possible even on the basis of its current restricted programme, that the Land Commission, by focussing more attention on the user of allotments and ensuring that only the very best allottees are selected, can make a far greater impression than heretofore on the vital weaknesses in our economic structure.

In the period 1946-50, Land Commission policy required that allotments provided for certain categories of allottees, including congests, be systematically inspected for good husbandry prior to revesting in the allottees. This practice was discontinued in 1950. Inquiries made regarding user of allotments provided since that date cause me to fear that, while user is fairly satisfactory in most districts, an undue proportion of the land allotted in some counties is not used intensively. It should be clearly understood by all allottees that, henceforth, the Land Commission will adopt a firm attitude towards the inefficient working of allotments.

It is not too much to say that our entire economy will stand or fall by the use made of the land. An allottee should not regard his allotment as an outright gift by the State to be used good, bad or indifferently as he sees fit. On the contrary, he should consider himself specially privileged in being allotted land acquired with public money and distributed in trust for the entire nation and on the definite understanding that it will be worked to maximum capacity and so contribute to the general, well-being.

As regards congest applicants, there is widespread belief that they may be classified as good, medium or indifferent. It is obviously objectionable that good land should be wasted on indifferent applicants. In the past, when far more land was available for division, it is to be feared that in some instances allottees qualified for additional land by the mere accident of location, in other words, because their existing uneconomic holdings were situated convenient to the lands being divided. Presumably, the view was taken that an uneconomic holding, adjacent to an estate being divided, should get an enlargement even though the occupier's farming potentialities left much to be desired, the fervent hope apparently being that the next generation would bring about an improvement in working methods. The stage has now been reached, however, where the country may no longer be able to afford the luxury of seeing its dwindling reserve of good land divided amongst allottees who are not prepared to make the best possible use of it. The primary need of the moment being increased agricultural production, it follows that the problem to be studied is whether land divided by the Land Commission should be allotted only to agriculturists of proved ability, receptive to modern farming ideas and having the necessary energy and means to ensure increased production in the shortest possible time.

In speaking of the methods by which allottees are chosen I wish to take the opportunity of giving some assistance to Deputies who are so constantly approached by tenants seeking parcels of land on divided estates. As the years pass by, it is wise to repeat emphatically both the regulations and, what is more important, the unchanging strict tradition of the Land Commission. I intend to send Deputies with each letter a statement further emphasising these conditions so that no one can be in any doubt as to the position. Briefly, the position is that all eligible applicants living within one mile of an estate being divided are interviewed automatically by the inspector and each case is fully considered on its merits before the selection is made. The representations are superfluous; they do not add to the applicant's prospects in any way; the official fact-finding has to be carried out independently of any representations and in the last analysis these representations only delay the work of disposing of acquired lands. If Deputies feel that there are applicants whose case would not be considered but for their representations, I can state categorically that, in connection with many estates, highly eligible persons make no representations through third parties.

What is the position? For nearly every parcel of land, there are at least ten, if not 100 applicants. As Minister, I am precluded from advancing any one person's claim. If I attempted to interfere on political grounds, I would be favouring one supporter as against another in every case. I want to make it clear, beyond all doubt, that letters addressed to me will not have the slightest effect on the Land Commission, if I can prevent it.

Moreover, may I say that a very limited number of Deputies create a fever of impatience and by their attitude encourage rumours of corruption in my staff which inquiries over decades have proved to be groundless? The choice of allottees can always be interpreted by interested parties as being unwise or unjust. In many cases, the Land Commission cannot make a choice which is absolutely perfect and nothing the Minister can do could possibly effect any improvement on the sincere effort made by the Commissioners. Deputies recommend in most cases a good proportion of the applicants for a particular estate. As a result, apart from the automatic examination of the inspectors their representations cancel each other out.

In one case, an applicant entirely unsuitable from every standpoint was recommended by three Ministers and all the Deputies of the constituency. Last week, I investigated a case of alleged political discrimination and found, as usual, that the ascertained facts were totally at variance with the allegations and successive Ministers have found the same thing. Any allegations of unjust discrimination made by Deputies and signed by them will naturally be investigated, as will, of course, any other suggestions of partiality.

There are a few Deputies who haunt the Land Commission local offices and some bring deputations. This creates a chain reaction of intrigue and suspicion and I think the practice is undesirable.

It has been the practice, heretofore, to set out in the official list of applicants, the names of the persons recommending particular applicants. I do not suggest that these names influenced the Land Commission in any way, but I nevertheless regard this practice as futile and I have directed its discontinuance forthwith. I have carried out an inquiry into the effects of these solicited recommendations and I may cite a few examples. In one typical estate, 11 applicants who had not solicited recommendations, were successful, as compared with only five who had solicited recommendations. In another case, nine were successful without representations, as compared with only two on whose behalf representations were made. In yet another estate, six were successful without representations as compared with only three who had solicited recommendations. I could go on multiplying the examples. All this illustrates that pressure or representations do not achieve their objective. I have every confidence in the impartiality of the Land Commissioners.

I am much concerned about the criticism, which is often levelled against the Land Commission, that there is delay in the allotment of land taken over for division. It will be appreciated that in some cases, particular lands may have to be held over pending the acquisition of other lands with the laudable purpose of combining them in a comprehensive scheme. I want to assure the House, however, that so far as the staffing and monetary resources permit there will not in future be any avoidable delay in the allotment of acquired lands. I have already given special directions in relation to two of our largest counties with a view to the early disposal of unallotted areas.

The Land Commission can no longer, of course, count as they could in the 1930s, on getting large untenanted estates held by absentee owners. The average area of estates acquired nowadays is about 90 acres compared with an average of about 260 acres in 1935. As to the prospects for speeding up the acquisition process, it seems that the time which elapses, from the date of first inspection of an estate until the owner is eventually paid the purchase money, is often far too long. I intend to examine this matter fully to see whether this delay can be curtailed. I do know, however, that the Land Commission are not mainly to blame, and owners and their solicitors must accept their share of responsibility.

I am determined to be absolutely frank about land division so as to avoid raising false hopes. There is a limited pool of land available and it is not increasing. Successive Governments have confined the capital to what is possible and this does not increase as a result of agitation; it remains stable. Capital is now scarce as we have been busy for ten years raising our standards of living by using up savings. Capital must be spent to a greater extent on projects that will increase production immediately. If Deputies constantly lead deputations advocating division, they are giving the people concerned excessive hope that the particular estate is going to be divided. If their efforts were successful, some other estate in the same constituency would not be divided or division would be delayed.

Moreover, the total resources for land division are going to be and have been fairly distributed over all the counties and undue pressure from one county is not going to alter the balance. I have examined the acreage and this is true. Deputies can assist by giving accurate information on properties where no employment is given and discouraging agitation. I will receive any number of deputations from people who will tell me how the Land Commission inspectors can help to increase farm output by an average of 30 per cent. and get a market for the produce abroad, but I am not going to waste the time of small farmers by appearing to have power which I do not possess. So long as the Commissioners acquire land in a fair way, I am not going to influence them, even indirectly, to take over a particular farm, and that is that.

As this is the first Estimate to be laid before the House, it is well that I should say a few words of a general character. The economic situation has changed in the last ten years to so great an extent that each Estimate in future will have to be considered in relation to two factors which govern our future as a nation. The first is the necessity to reduce costs of production wherever possible, while maintaining services essential to our well being. The second is to see how any Government service can be modified to encourage greater profitable production.

The following inescapable, irrevocable facts face us all and it is no good blinding our eyes to realities. Production from land has increased at half the European rate since 1949 and is 16 per cent. above 1911. Only 10 per cent. of private and State capital resources has been invested in agriculture since the war.

The younger generation demands a higher standard of living than we can afford, unless our exports expand far more rapidly. Emigration offers an immediate reward. 1957 commercial farming requires more capital, more risk, more organised marketing, more confidence, more price stability, far greater technical knowledge. Unless our people are willing to take a long term view and unless there is a resurgence of national feeling we will not survive as a vigorous separate nation. The true definition of a patriot in 1957 is a man who wants our country to outsell foreign competitors by producing more at lower cost and making a reasonable profit. Every nation in Europe has gained prosperity this way.

The objective of the Land Commission is to settle as many families on the land as is practicable. There must be an addendum. "Practicable" means that the policy will result in the growth of high grade commercial farming, enabling families to remain in Ireland, providing more people with work in our towns.

Whatever our difficulties, we have got to find the markets. If the Land Commission spends money on land division and we continue to lose from £5 to £10 on every beast exported through out-of-date practices and other causes, we are wasting national capital and taxing for nothing.

Now may I say this? Enough progress has been made to prove we can do the job right. Our difficulties are due to our ignoring the basic needs, the use of science in production, postponing fundamental changes, spending our savings on non-essentials. We have all the courage and the character we require to make our country second to none as a producer of high quality.

Mass emigration has been solving the problem of congestion at so rapid a rate that the Land Commission activity must be reviewed in the face of realities. Figures are dull but they can be translated only too easily into human decisions and into movements of families.

Since 1946, 24,000 people, for example, have emigrated from Mayo or approximately 2,100 per year, while the Land Commission contribution, because of the difficulties involved, moves a few families per annum to relieve congestion and rearranges a few hundred holdings. The people who live on the small western farms no longer accept the Land Commission ideas about what constitutes an economic holding. The population is reducing rapidly and leaving the same income for the fewer to enjoy.

While great progress has been made in some directions, the greater prosperity of the nation has been largely caused by higher farm prices and by the mass emigration of over 100,000 people from our farms in a short period of time, leaving a higher income to be shared by very much smaller families. In fact, emigration has been making farms economic without enlargement. We tend to linger in the nineteenth century and to excuse our present state by references to history.

What is this world from which we must escape? Just the out-dated idea that a man's security and prosperity depend largely upon the number of acres he farms forgetting the science, capital and industry which he applies and above all his marketing conditions.

What are the hard unassailable facts revealed in the recent Farm Survey? In the north and western regions, where neither dairying, mushrooms nor market gardens alter the general income levels, one-third of the farmers on five to 15-acre farms make twice the net profit that the third in the lowest income group are making and the farms examined in this category did not consist of better land. This one-third earn £269 a year, a very small amount based on 12 acres.

The 15-30 acre farms are making more profit. One-third make £390 on 20 to 24 acres and the remainder much less. Two-thirds of these 20-24 acre farms make less profit than one-third of the 12-acre farms. A small number of 14-acre farms make £410 profit and a small number of 20-acre farms make over £500.

Then we reach the Land Commission enlarged holding in the 30-50 acre group. One-fifth of these farms make £560 per farm and the remainder very much less. Eighty per cent. of them make less profit than the best of the 24-acre farms make. Some 40-acre farmers in the North and West, not specialising in milk, are making about £850 profit.

I should make it clear that according to the Farm Survey explanatory memorandum, the farms selected for examination yield an income somewhere above the national average. The comparative variations can be regarded as having real value in assessing the problem of increasing profitability on farms of all sizes. These variations are very great indeed. The profits are higher in Leinster and Munster.

If we make comparison with Denmark, farmers big and small are producing one-third the output and making half the profit and we may note particularly that while the Danish large farmer produced like our own far less per acre, the profits made by the 25-acre farmer are far greater than here because of co-operative machinery and high capital investment.

In examining the Farm Survey one fact stands out. All the most profitable farms are using twice the amount of fertilisers provided for the others. The very high-profit farms purchase twice to three times the fertilisers of all others including the best in farms of all sizes. Of particular note, the more tillage undertaken the more the profit made on live stock sold and this without exception.

It is obvious that a great many 15-acre farms could become the equivalent of 30-acre farms in income-earned by using more fertilisers and little else. The future of Ireland depends not only on enlarging farms and resuming badly-used farm land but on promoting first-class, high-grade, scientifically-minded young farmers and everyone knows this to be true. If we could help the one-third of the farmers to achieve the output and the profit of the best third, some of the congestion, apart from the rundale problem, would settle itself.

With growing competition in foreign trade becoming ever fiercer, the farms that will prosper will be farms scientifically run; that will be the sole condition. They will be the go-ahead farmers and they will be able to add to their holdings, large or small.

What do we know about the farmers view of the economic farm? In spite of the Land Commission's work, consolidation is taking place so rapidly that the £10 standard, which is the standard adopted in the West, is being steadily abandoned. In 1931, there were 90,000 holdings of 15 to 30 acres. There are 83,000 now in spite of the rearrangements. There are just 1,000 more holdings of 30-50 acres than in 1931. However, much more important than this past record of consolidation is the future trend of land ownership now facing us and we cannot ignore the facts.

The small farmers are preparing for greater consolidation in future years. The number of farmers owning farms less than 30 acres has decreased from 150,000 in 1926 to 108,000 in 1951. The number of their sons and daughters living on the farms has decreased from 107,000 to 52,000. Since 1951 the exodus has been far more rapid.

What use is it pretending that the present policy is entirely satisfactory? About one-seventh of the people residing on small farms have another occupation than farming. State works, roadwork, forestry and unemployment assistance all provide additional income.

Setting a standard of £10 valuation in the West, as a family farm, is now open to question as the people do not do so themselves. In no country of Northern Europe does the Government say: "We consider a farm of 18 acres to be economic, because we will give the balance of income required in State employment." We have to face the fact that State and private capital can no longer be poured so lavishly into non-productive amenity employment and that, for example, the rural housing problem is nearly solved.

Next, I come to the most serious challenge we face. The limited progress made in farm production has been taking place largely on the larger farms and largely in Leinster and Munster.

All the facts available show that the farmers with large capital resources and modern machinery, close to the larger markets, have shown the major production since 1931 due in part to the growing of wheat. Hence my statement that whereas in Denmark small farmers make more profit per acre than big farmers, the smaller farmers here are losing ground, even though here, as in Denmark, they produce more than the bigger farmers. The total agricultural output is 14 per cent. above 1938. Munster and Leinster contribute a great part of the increase.

What are the conclusions to be derived from these studies? The Departments of Lands and Agriculture must concentrate their efforts on assisting the medium sized family farmer to progress, particularly in the West and North. For this, small farmers need capital, co-operative or planned marketing, more technical instruction, confidence and a belief in the future of agriculture. They need also to see in every parish farms renowned for their high output. Good farming must become the most discussed topic in every parish. We must face up to reality and recognise that a small farmer who receives a holding gets the equivalent of £1,000 to £2,000. This is a privilege accorded to only about 14 uneconomic land holders per thousand per year. It is too valuable a gift in our present state unless the result is to stimulate high grade commercial farming.

I should state that both the N.F.A. and Macra na Feirme and my predecessor have been thinking along these lines. No one could occupy my position without questioning previous policy. We are beginning a new age and we can forget a great deal of what we thought in 1921. The problem is inextricably associated with the whole of the land tenure system in this country.

Farmers in authority have made it clear that a young man should be able to inherit at a younger age or be able to buy a farm on hire-purchase. We alone in Europe have no long-term farm credit enabling a young man to purchase his family's interest in a farm or to purchase a farm for himself.

Few people have stressed the importance of bringing encouragement to the farmers in the North and West who, with many exceptions, are not able to keep pace with the modern age because they do not have the advantages of those living near Dublin and they have not been able to modernise to the same extent save for some simple basic implements or to find capital. In this we face a challenge. We must make up our minds realistically about the congested counties. We may do all that is possible by bringing tourists, starting industries, etc., but we must decide on a course that will help to bring these counties into the modern world of production and if this is impossible we must adopt a different policy.

The problem for us then is how to spend the portion of the Estimate devoted to land division in the most effective way. We must decide how to use the highly-trained Land Commission staff for this purpose. We must now consider whether to modify the present system or replace it.

At this stage, I can only say this: the system must change. It is outdated and the movements of our people in the last ten years afford complete justification for this statement.

In conclusion, may I emphasise that the facts point towards the value of the medium-sized holding? The number of live stock, pigs, sheep and cattle on every size of farm increases regularly as the tillage area increases and, with the exception of older cattle, this applies even to quite small farms. The output per acre on larger farms is very, very much lower than on smaller farms.

The Land Commission objective now must be to ensure that the expenditure achieves the maximum results in increasing output. In our present position, what we need most is to encourage the younger and energetic generation of farmers to go ahead and seek more technical knowledge on farming. We need to encourage greater respect for good farming.

In the examination of land division policy, we must not fall into the easy trap of generalising about the extreme congestion in the West. There are thousands of smallholders in the West whose income even under intensive farming methods is quite insufficient. Much of the land in certain areas is of very poor quality. The relief of acute congestion is a special issue although emigration is to some extent solving the problem with distressing rapidity.

All I have said is based on the problem as seen by me and a widely varied group of individuals and organisations in the country at large. With my present knowledge of Land Commission work, some time must elapse before the Government can consider possible modifications or changes in policy.

I will be most interested to hear the views of Deputies from every side of the House.

The Minister led us along through the greater part of his speech and, personally, I expected some statement of change of policy, or some new approach to the whole question of the work of the Land Commission. He let us down with a bang on the very last page by telling us he is thinking about it. I wish the Minister every success in the very important work he has under his control. The work of the Land Commission is a very important branch of the national service. It is a very important branch for a certain section of the people, those who have small holdings and those who have not sufficient land to make a start off. As I often said here, both from that side and from this, it is from the small holdings that the heaviest emigration occurs. While the work of the Land Commission has met with criticism, and I expect will meet with criticism, nevertheless, they have been doing an excellent job of work under most difficult conditions.

One of the Land Commission's powers is to dispossess a man of his property. They must do that to get the raw material to work with. The acquisition and resumption of land they must carry out by compulsory methods. That power was granted long before self-government was given to this country and was rather extended by our own Government. The power of acquisition and resumption which the Land Commission have, and from which there is no appeal, is one of the most extraordinary powers given to anybody in the State. Even the ordinary criminal who is put on trial for his life has, at the very least, a court of appeal. The unfortunate landowner whose land has been acquired has no appeal from the commissioners' decision. I fully agree that there would appear to be a case for an appeal, but, after my experience in the Land Commission, I fully agree that, if there were such an appeal, it would be just as well for the Land Commission to fold up, as every case would be appealed.

I think it is only right that I should say this: I have never known a case where the Land Commission in the exercise of that function acted harshly or did not give the fullest possible consideration to the most minute point put forward by the person whose land was being acquired or resumed. I have every sympathy, and I am sure the present Minister and other Ministers have every sympathy, with the person who is deprived of his land against his will. Nevertheless, the evil of congestion is an evil which has existed for hundreds of years—the unfortunate legacy of the different Irish Governments—and the Land Commission and the Congested Districts Board were formed long before we got home government to solve that problem.

I would say to the Minister there is only a small remnant of what was once the original problem left and I would ask him to expedite the clearing away of that small remnant to the utmost. I know from bitter experience that it is only the most difficult cases that are left, the cases in townlands and estates which were impossible to solve in the past. It is those that are now left in the latter years of the Land Commission's work. They are just as important—if not more important—as lands previously dealt with.

The Minister made comparisons in regard to the incomes of various holdings. I gathered from the tone of his remarks that he was straying into a realm that more properly belongs to his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture. Might I say that the work of the Land Commission is to provide economic holdings, to allot the land of the country into the most economicsized holdings possible? I submit that it is not the work of the Land Commission to become a police agent over those who get the land.

The Minister said so on page 6 of his statement:

"It seems possible even on the basis of its current restricted programme, that the Land Commission, by focussing more attention on the users of allotments and ensuring that only the very best allottees are selected, can make a far greater impression than heretofore on the vital weaknesses in our economic structure."

I went over every inch of that ground and came to the conclusion that the Land Commission, as a Department of State, was formed and kept in being for the purpose of dividing and allotting land. If it is necessary to look after the user of land, I say that that work would more properly belong to the Department of Agriculture. The Minister's staffs in the Land Commission are excellent judges of the different qualities of land and their outdoor inspectors are excellent judges of human nature. They have to be. Otherwise, they cannot be Land Commission inspectors. They are excellent judges of the size and layout of the holdings, including water, turbary and fencing, but I do submit the inspectors were never intended to be police, to be a secret service, to look after how a man is using his land. If the bad user of land has become such an evil that Government action is necessary, if the evil has assumed such proportions as to make it necessary to have it looked after, it is not the task of the Land Commission to do it. The object of the Land Commission is to relieve congestion and to vest the remaining holdings under the 1923 Act. Perhaps, when they have that done, changing circumstances might provide a new phase or aspect of work for them, but the policing of the user of land is not their job.

It is very difficult for a Land Commission inspector to determine whether a man who has got an allotment of land is making the best out of that allotment, whether in grazing, meadowing, growing wheat, potatoes or anything else. There is no land wasted in this country. It is all producing something or other. It is a matter of opinion which is the best use.

Our Government did more than any other to banish the rushes from this country.

The fellows who own the rushes are paying the teachers and nobody else is paying them.

It is not a function of the Land Commission. However, I shall not dwell further on that aspect of the matter other than to warn the Minister that he is taking the Department into a sphere in which they were never intended to operate.

He mentioned that the 1946 Act, which was a very necessary Act, dealt with a certain evil of considerable proportions at that time. That Act gave the Land Commission and the inspectors certain powers. The Minister mentioned that it was discontinued in 1950, and that is so. It was found that the inspectors' time was being wasted on chasing about examining complaints, some of them fairly genuine but the vast majority the result of spite or a grudge against some neighbour who got a portion of land and who, through some unforeseen circumstance or other, had perforce to let the land or to make some use, other than the ordinary use, of it. When it was their duty to inquire into such cases, an immense amount of the inspectors' time was wasted chasing shadows because of complaints made by spiteful neighbours or something like that.

The relief of congestion and the rearrangement of the remainder of the holdings—and only a small core is left —is work of vital importance. While the Minister may have his own ideas and, possibly, will form new ideas as time goes on, as to the output from the various holdings, I feel certain that nothing helps to stabilise a population in a rural district as much as the knowledge that each farmer owns his holding and that it is the largest holding the Land Commission can provide for him. He has his new house and comfortable out-offices. He realises that any improvements he carries out on the holding, through labour and capital, will be to his own benefit.

On the other hand, when the fate of a man's holding is still in the melting-pot and while he is waiting for the Land Commission to take action, he is not inclined to carry out improvements, to spend money on it or to work it as much as he would if he knew it was his own. That is one of the causes of emigration. Take, for example, youngsters who, having been reared on a particular holding, are loath to remain there. Frequently these youngsters conclude that the parents are not as up and doing as they might be. There is sometimes the fear that money spent on improvements may not be wise spending because, perhaps, after the rearrangement of the townlands, the benefit of such improvements may pass to a neighbouring tenant or tenants. The Minister would make a serious mistake if he deviated from this very important work until the relief of congestion is finished.

Another aspect to be considered is the enlargement of the work envisaged under Section 27 of the 1950 Act, namely, the purchase of holdings for cash under sub-head I. Work under that sub-head is confined to holdings for migrants or for rearrangement. For instance, as it stands, land cannot be given out in stray enlargements to uneconomic holdings. The Minister might well consider widening the scope of the work of the Land Commission under that sub-head in order to buy holdings to place young men on the land.

Consider a farmer's son of 22 or 25 years of age. He has grown up on his father's holding and become a good farmer because he has been reared on the holding and has taken part in all the work to be done on it. He has had experience of the pitfalls which face every farmer in the course of his work. One of the greatest losses to our country is the loss of such a young man. I am sorry to say that few young men are inclined to make a livelihood on the land nowadays. That is the trend, not alone in this country but in practically every other country where statistics are available.

In the United States, the flight from the land to the towns and cities is much greater than it is here and the same can be said of England. In order to make life on the land attractive, the British Government had to bring in an extraordinary system of subsidisation for agricultural produce to induce people to stay on the land and get a taste for it. There is the same trend in India. The only exceptions are Denmark, Belgium, Holland and Sweden. These are the only countries which seem to be able to maintain a stable population on the land due to causes that it would not be relevant for me to discuss on this Estimate.

If we are to establish and keep a nucleus of good sound farmers on the land—such as the Minister apparently has in mind—I would say that the Minister has the machinery there already to enable him to purchase holdings and establish farmers' sons on them. The Minister says that every person who gets a new holding is, in effect, given a gift of £1,000 or £2,000. That is so. However, would it not be a cheap method of holding a number of young men at home for the benefit of the State? If we could ensure that, for instance, for 1,000 young men who are well known to the Land Commission inspectors and to the Department of Agriculture inspectors to have a thorough knowledge of farming, to be good keen agriculturists with a love of the land and who have no other attachments for any other kind of living, it would be a good thing for the nation. Our country will suffer more as a result of the loss of these young men than any other country because agriculture is our principal industry and will remain so for many years to come. If we lose our principal technicians from agriculture, namely, the young men who have been trained in the hard school of experience on their fathers' holdings, then I fear we shall lose a great part of our wealth.

The Minister gave figures of practically 28,000 acres acquired and resumed last year and about the same acreage divided. That is good going. Some Deputies like to give the impression that the Land Commission is slow, but they do not really think so. To my knowledge, most Deputies have a fairly good idea of the difficulties which face Land Commission inspectors. They have a fair idea also of the difficulties which they themselves throw in the inspectors' way. I would ask the Minister not to take that carping too seriously. He will find that there are some people who think land should not be owned by private individuals and that another method of ownership should obtain in this country. There are some Deputies who think that, once a farm is taken over by the Land Commission, they themselves should have the dividing of it. That is human nature. When the Minister has been three or four years in his Department, he will take that kind of thing with a pinch of salt. I believe it is not to be taken seriously.

Surely you are not telling us you were taking things easy during the past couple of years?

I did not say I was taking things easy.

He said: "With a pinch of salt."

I was talking about the dust cloud which some Deputies raise when they speak about the "slowness" of the Land Commission.

Does the Deputy not know that the Land Commission is recognised as the slowest moving body in Ireland?

The acquisition of nearly 30,000 acres of land and the reallotment and rearrangement of holdings involves a great deal of work. Anybody acquainted with the Land Commission and who realises the amount of work which that entails will agree that it was a considerable achievement, in the light of our resources. I would impress on the Minister to finish the hard core of approximately 12,000 or 13,000 holdings still left to be arranged. That will be the hardest job. As the core is diminishing in size, the Minister will find that the deeper he goes into it, the harder the remainder of the work will become. I would impress on him not to ease off until the job is finally accomplished. I suggest that the rest of the work, the user of land and so forth, more properly comes within the purview of the Department of Agriculture.

The work of the Land Commission is peculiar in itself. It is slow work and it is hard work, principally because of the difficulty of acquiring land and the innate love that our people have for land, but magnificent work has been done in the last few years in the direction of relieving congestion. Land Commission work is not as spectacular as that of Forestry. Results can be seen much more quickly where the work of the Forestry Branch is concerned. A heather-clad mountain becomes in a few years a thick woodland area. Land Commission work, however, is nothing like so spectacular. All the Land Commission can do is give a change of ownership. There is no visible change over the land except perhaps where a new house is built.

The Minister mentioned a change in design. Such a change will be very welcome. Vast improvements have been made in architectural design over the last decade but the Land Commission houses have been erected to pattern all the time. These houses now stick out like sore thumbs. If an improvement in design is not made it will be all too easy to point to the Land Commission house.

The Minister mentioned that revesting has been completed in Carlow and Longford. I understand that only some 13,000 holding remain to be vested. I urge the Minister to finish vesting as quickly as possible where that is possible. In the past holdings were vested, particularly in the West of Ireland, carrying as low valuations as £2 or £2 10s. That should never have been done. If tenants disagree with proposals for their benefit, no Government Department should then decide: "Very good. We will vest you and shut the door against you for all time; you will never get any further improvement." If something is not done to remedy the position that exists there will be a wholesale flight from these holdings.

The Minister made a passing reference to emigration and cited it as settling the problem of congestion in some areas. That is true, but it is wrong to stand by and allow the problem to be remedied in that fashion. If emigration is occurring from these vested but uneconomic townlands, then the Land Commission should ask to be allowed to go in again. Admittedly the situation will be more difficult since there are legal difficulties when inspectors undertake to rearrange a vested as against an unvested townland. More office work is involved. Nevertheless, such work would be well worth while.

I wish the Minister every success. He will get every encouragement from us in his task. Land Commission work is perhaps more useful than that undertaken by other State Departments. It provides employment for about 1,300 workers, to say nothing of the gangers and other staff. It brings relief to a section of our people who cannot help themselves. It provides houses, roads, fences, drainage and so forth. It is immensely important in the lives of the people. The Minister will get every assistance in his task from this side of the House.

I do not agree with the ex-Minister that the Land Commission should not keep on eye on the use of land acquired and allocated by them. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that land is used to the best advantage for the benefit of the nation. I do not mean that the Land Commission should waste time examining mistakes that may have been made but, when the question of allocation of land is involved, the Land Commission should take all possible steps to ensure that holdings will be allocated only to those who have proved that they can make good use of land. It is only by making the best use of our land that the nation can succeed.

It would be foolish for the Land Commission not to see that land is used to the greatest advantage for the nation as a whole. It is of primary importance that land should be given only to those who will make the best use of it. Possibly that was not the policy in the past. There are cases where holdings are not being utilised to the best advantage. No matter what precautions are taken, there will be instances in which the best possible tenants will not be found. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to act on the advice of the ex-Minister and forget all about the user of land once it is allocated.

I am not in agreement with the priority given to prospective tenants. For years the policy has been to give No. 1 priority to uneconomic land holders. That policy may be of advantage in certain parts of the country, but there are large areas in which a more flexible policy would give better results. Consideration should be given to local conditions and to those areas in which the best advantage is not achieved by such a policy.

In East Donegal, experience has shown that that policy is not the best policy for that area and I know the same applies to other areas. There is a particular problem in East Donegal. A number of farms which have been let for years and years have been taken over by the Land Commission and invariably migrants have been brought in. Migrants who left farms of small valuation where they had turbary and other rights to come to an area where valuations are high and where there is no turbary could not adjust themselves to the different methods of farming and to the different conditions of farming. The result is that it is difficult at the moment to persuade migrants to come from the west of the county to East Donegal.

Another point is that in East Donegal there is a large number of what I may call conacre farmers, landless men whose fathers have been agricultural workers on large farms. These men take land by conacre and over a number of years have built up a store of suitable farm implements, tractors, ploughs, and so on, and a stock of cattle. They have proved that they are hard-working, thrifty farmers. Such men could make very good use of land if it were allocated to them by the Land Commission. They could help enormously in the production of food for the nation. They are producing food at the moment under difficulties. No matter how industrious these men may be, they could never reach the stage where they could buy some of the larger farms in the area that go under the hammer. They could never afford to pay £3,000 or £4,000 for a farm. Most of the farms in the area are in the region of 200 to 300 acres. Many of them are being let by conacre. When a farm is put up for sale, the conacre farmers cannot buy it because the price is prohibitive.

It would help the production drive immensely if this class of farmer were considered in the allocation of land. The fact that they have purchased the necessary machinery and that they have the stock should be sufficient guarantee to the Land Commission that they would not just take the land for the sake of getting it and dispose of it afterwards.

The type of farming carried on in the areas from which the migrants come is not the same type of farming as is carried on in the areas of Donegal to which they are sent, and it takes migrants a long time to adjust themselves to the different methods and some of them never adjust themselves, for various reasons. In time, the sons of these migrants may become better farmers, but the migrants themselves do not go in for tillage and, when the Land Commission are distributing holdings, preference should be given to tenants who have shown that they are tillage farmers, because lack of tillage is the greatest difficulty in the country at the moment. If there were more tillage farmers many of our difficulties would be solved.

Vesting of holdings is very important. Many grants from various Departments depend on whether the land is vested or not. In the case of grants from the Department of Local Government and grants for housing and county council grants it is necessary that the land should be vested. For that and other reasons, vesting of land should be speeded up. I agree with Deputy Blowick that rearrangement of holdings should take place when that is done, but it would be unwise to put the vesting of land back until such time as all rearrangement can take place. That would slow up vesting too much and it is important that families who have been tenants of land for centuries should become the vested owners of their holdings.

Deputy Blowick made a case for the small farmer's son, that he should be given land. I agree with the case made because our difficulty in Ireland at the moment is that, in some places, where the farms are small, there is no inducement to the sons of farmers to stay at home, even where the son knows that he will get the father's holding. It is very difficult to induce a boy who has had experience of earning high wages in England or who has the example of neighbours earning high wages in England or Scotland to remain on his father's holding. It would be very useful if the Land Commission could give holdings to farmers' sons who are prepared and willing to work them. It has often been said that the Land Commission is slow. In some cases it is true that there are delays which do not appear to Deputies to be reasonable. We have examples of cases where land has been acquired and has lain for a number of years unallocated. I know of one case where a farm was taken over about 12 years ago and after six years part of it was allocated to tenants but the other part has been lying there since then and nothing has been done about it. Several prospective tenants have come to see it but it has not been allocated.

Did any of the prospective tenants want it? Was it the prospective tenants who refused it?

That speaks eloquently of the problem in front of the Land Commission.

It may be that the migrants who came to look at it have not taken it—I do not know—but if that is the case it strengthens my argument that such holdings should be given to local landless men, to conacre farmers in the particular area.

It may be a donatio mortis causa in a special sense.

If the suggestion made by Deputy Dillon were true, that these people did not want to take it after having seen it, then I suggest that it be given to one or other of those working conacre, to landless men in the area who are conacre farmers.

Another class of tenant I would like to see settled on the land is the employees of the estate which has been taken over. In many cases these are put off with the proverbial acre or so, through their having been agricultural workers on the holding. I do not say that they should get a large holding. Unless there are special reasons for giving it to them, unless they have shown that they would be capable of making good use of a large holding, I would not suggest that they should be given a 40-acre holding but it would be good policy to give them five or six acres or anything up to ten acres. These agricultural workers could make use of that and could specialise in something like the growing of fruit trees or in market gardening or something like that.

He could not do much extra work, working a 50-hour week.

These people have families who could help. Up to now, the size of farms allocated has been too small. A farm of 25 acres, unless it is in an area where specialisation is in existence or could take place, is too small. With modern methods of tillage the smallest farm which can be profitable for mixed-farming would be around 50 acres, because a farm of smaller size than that cannot profitably carry the machinery which is needed for tillage. I would urge that in future the Minister consider increasing the acreage up to 50 acres—at least not under 40 acres—as that amount of land is necessary to carry tillage and some cattle.

I am sure the Minister is capable of doing good work in the Department over which he has been placed. It is a Department where vast good for the country can be achieved and he should have as No. 1 consideration, the use of land. I advise him not to pay attention to that part of the advice given by the ex-Minister but to concern himself very much indeed with the use of land. It is on the use of our land that our nation depends. He should see to it that the best possible use is made of it. I hope that he will put into this Department the drive he put into his work as Minister previously. There are many problems to be solved in the Department of Lands, and I hope that he will do his best to solve these problems.

Whatever the Minister is in fact capable of doing, he is certainly entitled to a fair chance to look around him, to tackle the job, and he ought to be assured of the fact that in his work he has the best wishes of us all for his success.

As I listened to his statement to-day, it struck me that he was still suffering from a certain nostalgia for ministerial prizes which have been denied not only to him but to Deputy Corry as well. I must say it makes me blush to realise how great an army desired to succeed me—but that is one of the afflictions of agriculture in this country. Every national teacher, every doctor, every pharmaceutical chemist, every engineer, every lawyer, every tram conductor, thinks he knows all about agriculture. Now, which one of these particular categories of persons would not be intensely indignant if the farmer went in and told him how to run his chemist's shop, his dispensary or his school? Yet all of them feel that they have full and adequate qualifications for going in on any farmer's land, large or small, and explaining to him how he could make his fortune if only he would do what he was told.

It might be a very good thing if he would take some strange advice.

If it may be a very good thing, it is a good thing for the chemists, the engineers and the lawyers that the farmers do not pay the least heed to them, for it is not the farmers who would starve but the chemists, the lawyers, the national teachers, the engineers and all the rest who are living out of the farmer and who would all be on the dole, if there was any dole to pay them, only for the fact that the farmers are earning sufficient money to keep all of these warriors in relative prosperity. Mind you, there is no one in these categories who does not think it is his natural right to sail round the country in a motor car of anything from ten to 20 horse power. But if a farmer turns up in an eight horse power car or a motor bike, it is made the subject of improving dissertations throughout the countryside, such as "God be with the day they were able to foot it to Mass and back again and to turn the soil with a loy."

The Deputy is discussing agriculture on this Vote for the Department of Lands.

I am, but it is interesting to note that the Minister devoted himself almost exclusively to agricultural policy.

In so far as the country's land was concerned.

I thought I might offer those few words in order to restrain the other warriors I see licking their chops ready to intervene. Deputy Cunningham exasperated me when he said he wanted to give everybody in this country 50 acres of land. The island is not big enough. There are not 50 acres for everybody, if you took all the farmers in Ireland and settled them. There is not nearly enough of land on the island to give every farmer 50 acres.

Would the Deputy say what type he considers to be farmers?

Deputy Cunningham is not a child. He should know the elementary facts. He is here year in, year out and I am weary looking at him. One of the elementary facts is that there are not 50 acres of land to give each farmer. What are you going to do? Are you going to build the land into the Atlantic Ocean? It is all very well to say: "Now, Deputy Childers, you are Minister. Will you give everybody 50 acres, because that is what Fianna Fáil wants?" No one adverts to the fact that there are not 50 acres for everybody.

There are not 20 acres; there are not five acres for everyone.

Deputy Cunningham has already spoken.

For the farmers at present farming the land of the country, there are not 50 acres each.

No, or 20 acres.

Then what the hell is the use asking the Minister to give them 50 acres each? If Deputy Cunningham were talking through his hat, I would not have minded, but I thought he was talking seriously. That is what exasperated me. It shows you the kind of puerile nonsense that is going on.

I think the Deputy misunderstood what Deputy Cunningham said. What Deputy Cunningham meant was that from the small holdings which are divided year by year people who are getting land should have their holdings brought up to 50 instead of 33 acres.

I do not blame the Minister for trying to bail out his colleague. Deputy Cunningham was preparing to publish in the Derry Journal that he was recommending everybody in East Donegal would get 50 acres from Deputy Childers.

I knew the Derry Journal would make its appearance.

I do not think this is the appropriate occasion on which to challenge the Minister about what he is going to do or what he is not going to do because he is entitled to a fair chance to look around him, to get his feet under him, and if I have any criticism to offer I will be inclined to make it this time 12 months when I have seen what he is doing. However, I think there are certain paragraphs in his statement on the Department which require examination now. For instance, he says that agricultural output has increased by 16 per cent. since 1911. Why pick on 1911? I have submitted to this House graphs and diagrams, and the fact throughout is that gross agricultural output tended steadily upwards until 1932. It then tended steadily downwards, until it reached its lowest in 1947. Then it went straight up. From the lowest point which it reached, it has increased by 32 per cent. in the last ten years. That is not sensational, but it is satisfactory. I think that trend is being maintained and it is gratifying to note that, in the first three months of this year, the live-stock boom was such that more cattle were exported from Ireland in January, February and March last than were ever exported from Ireland in any January, February or March in our recorded history.

And more people as well.

The fly-by-night.

It is always a good sign to see them vocal. You will find in the early stage of the Minister's statement that he suggests the increase in agricultural output was 11 per cent. That is cod. The increase since 1947 is 32 per cent. and it is still rising.

The Deputy has run that course pretty far.

And the Minister has been unable to contradict me because these are the facts. You must bear these facts in mind because there is no greater fallacy than to deceive yourself with false facts and to change your policy on that basis.

If the Deputy looks at the years between 1945 and 1947, he will get a different percentage.

Production increased up to 1931. It then declined until 1947 and has increased straight through from that year.

I shall deal with the Deputy later.

It is nothing new to say as the Minister says in this statement, that a policy of one more cow, one more sow and one more acre under the plough is good for agriculture in this country. Neither is it new to say that it is a desirable thing on most farms in this country to walk the tillage crops off the land.

The Minister for Lands is not responsible for agricultural policy.

I am not claiming that that is a new policy. I said such claims were made by other people.

Of course I am not in the confidence of the Government. I am following up the Minister's statement and will give the Leas-Cheann Comhairle the reference. On page 13 of the statement, the Minister said:—

"The objective of the Land Commission is to settle as many families on the land as is practicable. There must be an addendum. "Practicable" means that the policy will result in the growth of high grade commercial farming, enabling families to remain in Ireland, providing more people with work in our towns.

Whatever our difficulties, we have got to find the markets. If the Land Commission spends money on land division and we continue to lose from £5 to £10 on every beast exported through out-of-date practices and other causes we are wasting national capital and taxing for nothing."

Would the Minister kindly come down to earth? If he wants to be Minister for Agriculture, he should persuade the Taoiseach to make him Minister for Agriculture and let him then go into the Department of Agriculture where he will get competent advice on these problems. As far as I am concerned I would be delighted to see him there, but it is dynamite if the policy of the Land Commission is to be fixed by daft ideas in respect of general agricultural policy adopted without competent advice. The Minister has not had competent advice because there is nobody in the Land Commission competent to advise him on agricultural matters.

The policy of the Land Commission, if changed, will have to be decided by the Government.

The Minister is not Minister for Agriculture. If he were, he would have the opportunity of getting competent advice on agricultural matters. He puts forward a series of proposals about agriculture in his opening speech some of which are platitudinous and others of which contain undeniable seed of danger. I want to warn the Minister of this: Let him not start any flirtation with the principles of the 1947 Agriculture Act of Great Britain. There was a lot of blood spilt in this country in order to get the three F.s, fair rent, fixity of tenure, and free sale.

I have not suggested—

The Minister sees the dangerous ground he is treading on. The Minister lays down certain principles. He is warned by Deputy Blowick. Deputy Cunningham leaps into the fray and says: "Do not listen to Deputy Blowick. See that any man that gets land works it right." Then Deputy Cunningham lays it down what the right working of land shall be: "Give them all 50 acres of land apiece and see that they work it right." Who is going to say what working it right is?

You are twisting as usual.

Is Deputy Cunningham going to be the judge in East Donegal as to whether a farmer there is working the land right or wrong? Do you not see where the Minister's policy is likely to lead?

That is not correct. The Deputy is twisting what was said.

The Minister will say: "Not at all. My officers in the Land Commission will see to that as the competent people." I regard the staff of the Land Commission as being some of the most competent public servants there are in this country for the work they were trained to do, but if the Minister asks the chief officer or the higher inspectors of the Department of Lands anything relating to technical matters such as the proper working of land, they will tell him they want his authority to go and consult the technical side of the Department of Agriculture in order to give him the correct answer. It is there that the knowledge is which will advise the Minister on the highly technical problems of the right user of land.

I venture to lay down this general proposition that the right user of land in this country is that user which will procure for the man who owns it under God and nobody else the best living for himself, his wife and his family, always provided he leaves it in the autumn a little better than he found it in the spring. That is the only test and if you go one hair's breadth beyond that test, fixity of tenure is dead in this country. Our people will not stand for disruption of fixture of tenure and it is just as well that all the Deputies of this House should face that fact here and now.

They have faced it always so far as I know.

There is too much trying to undermine fixity of tenure in this country and in this House.

I am not suggesting the Minister has any such idea in mind. I do not think he has but I am just trying to indicate that, with the best intentions in the world, in the absence of competent advice he will find himself drifting into these daft thoughts. The surest clog on progressive farming is doubt about the ownership of land. The best bank a farmer could have ought to be his land. The surest and safest place to put his saving is in the improvement of his land. If you once raise a doubt in his mind, if Deputy Cunningham or anybody else can come along and say: "That man is not using his land right; therefore, let it be taken from him", not one penny of the savings will go into the land for which it ceases to be a safe repository for the farmer's capital.

A good deal of what the Minister said he sought to prove by pointing out that there was a drift from the land. Of course there is a drift from the land. There is a drift from the land going on in every part of the world, and as I look around at the Deputies I ask how many of them have drifted from the land. A great many of them were born on the land and they hopped off it as quickly as they could.

No, other reasons.

Because they wanted a fixed income which they never hoped to get on the holding they were born on. Is that not correct and is it not a funny thing that it is the very fellows who have done that themselves who are the most eloquent about the awful drift from the land and who do not realise that they are all drops of water in the flood? I am not quarrelling with them and I do not want to deride them or make little of them in any way. It is a good thing to see a man using the faculties God gave him to the best advantage whether it be at farming, in a profession, in a business or in however he thinks he can best use them, but, for heaven's sake, let us cut out the hypocritical cod about the drift from the land and the tragedy of emigration. Voluntary emigration—and I emphasise the word "voluntary"—is not a tragedy. The emigration of necessity, when our people were driven by hunger from the shores of this country, was a catastrophe and a tragedy but what tragedy is it to-day if a young fellow wants to go anywhere in the world and carve out for himself a career? Why should we talk of tragedy? If he wants to stay here let him stay here. If he wants to go let him be free to go.

Very simple.

When Rome was a small city in the sphere of temporal affairs she grew great by conquering an empire for her people, but she lost that empire because she had to conquer it. England was a small island and she grew great as she conquered an empire, and she lost that empire, and she is still losing it, because she conquered it by blood and the sword. We in this country have a greater empire than Rome or Great Britain ever had, but we should build up in this country a condition in which none of our people will be forced to emigrate.

Or desire to emigrate.

I do not want to restrict anybody's desire. Nor would I seek to circumscribe the achievement of Deputy Haughey's desire. What I am suggesting is that wherever or however he thinks it expedient to exploit the gifts God gave him, he should be free to do so and equipped to do so.

Would it not be better if the desires were satisfied here?

I suppose some Deputies think it would be much better if I had emigrated. I possibly think the same thing about them. The all important thing is that I shall not be in a position to constrict his view as he is not in a position to constrict mine. That is what I think. I have spent a good deal of time in America and in England. I chose to come home because I preferred to live here. Others prefer to live in America, Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand, Australia or any part of the world to which the great spiritual empire of our people has extended. Let us try and cut out the cod and the hypocrisy. The drift from the land is due to the fact that a man who is living on 30 acres in Mayo to-day very often has to make the choice between accepting the standard of living available therefrom or going to England and earning up to £40 a week.

Exactly the same thing is happening in the United States of America. If one goes to Dakota, North or South, one will find the whole population going from Dakota to the large industrial cities, going to Minneapolis, Duluth, Omaha and Nebraska, in order to get industrial employment and the standard of living which it will give them. They are doing that because there is perfect freedom of transit. The radio, television and cinematograph present them with a picture of the kind of standard of living that industrial employment offers them in opposition to the life of simplicity and isolation on the land. Let us face it. The great majority of us have made that choice and it was not in favour of the land. We have chosen to go from the land into the towns and we have moved either to Clonmel, Dublin or Roscommon in order to pursue a profession. Others have gone to Birmingham, London, Manchester or Glasgow. I would not like to live in Birmingham, London, Manchester or Glasgow, and I came back here after living in New York, London and various other parts of the world because I preferred to be here.

We have got to face the fact that unless we can keep the people from availing of the best standard of living, whether on the land or in industrial centres, there is little we can do to control the drift from the land. There is nothing they can do to stop it in England or Australia. The only place they can do something about it is in Russia or the satellite countries, because people will not be let drift from the land. They are made stay where they are and not infrequently they are made leave the land for industrial centres.

They are not getting the production in Russia either.

I think the Deputy is perfectly right and, though that would vindicate the view, I think the Deputy and I would put it on the higher level. It does not produce the results and, even if it did, it is not the kind of society we want to live in.

But once you start abridging the freedom of the people freely to move, then mind your step. Everybody is willing and anxious to plan his neighbour's life but nobody wants his neighbour to plan his. I have spent all my life living among small farmers just as Deputy Flanagan has. They do not have the standard of living that people living in the wealthier sections of Dublin, Cork, London, New York and Chicago have but they have a better standard than a great deal of the people who live in Chicago, London, Dublin or Cork—a great deal better. It will not appeal to everybody in the same way and the plain fact is that those who want to stay in the country will stay there and those who do not will not.

So far as I am concerned I am glad that in this country every man, whether humble or great, is free to go "where the wind listeth". I believe at the present moment nobody is under the spur of hunger or destitution. Many are under the spur and the desire for a different or a higher standard of life but there is nobody in this country at present living in the rural Ireland which I know who is constrained to say that hunger forces him from his home and that if he were to try and stay in the neighbourhood in which he was born he would die of starvation.

What would he live on?

What are your neighbours living on?

How many were thrown out—

Blatherskite. Go down to the crossroads in Roscommon and make that speech there.

The Deputy was afraid to speak at any crossroads in Roscommon.

Abusing me will not get the Deputy any votes in Roscommon.

Deputy McQuillan will get an opportunity to speak.

It is the affliction of the people that anybody elected to this House will get a full innings, including Deputy McQuillan, and thanks be to God that it should be so. Our people have achieved through blood, sweat and tears the glorious right to do wrong, Taoiseach de Valera not excepted and they certainly do exercise it from time to time.

I have tried merely to skim the surface of some of the issues raised in the Minister's statement. I understand this statement sprang largely from his heart. It was not made the subject of protracted discussion before being cast into the final form in which it is presented to us. With that enthusiastic approach I have much sympathy but I think I am bound to issue this warning. The greatest danger in which any Minister stands is to start thinking with his heart instead of his head. There is no category of people more lovable or more desperately dangerous than those whose heads are as soft as their hearts. We would all like to provide everybody with 50 acres of land. It is only a Minister bearing the full sense of responsibility of his office who faces the grim answer that the land is not there wherewith to fulfil our hearts' desire. That is another aspect of this problem which I suggest the Minister would regard in the light of what I have said to day. But, above all, I would beg of him to realise this: he cannot run the Department of Agriculture from the other side of Merrion Street. It is not impossible, if he had been given Lands and Agriculture, that he would have run both, but there can be no greater disaster than that he should allow the policy of the Department of Lands to be controlled by a misconception of what is a sane policy for the agricultural industry of this country. If he is not presiding over the two Ministries, I would exhort him, before he reaches conclusions on the important matters referred to in his opening address, to take counsel with his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, and hear all sides of the question competently discussed before he jumps to conclusions as lurid as those proposed to him by Deputy Cunningham or as diverting as, I have no doubt, those to be submitted by Deputy McQuillan for his consideration.

The main purpose of my intervention in this debate is to make a further attempt to get some information on the constitution of this body known as the Irish Land Commission. Time and again, when debating this matter, we have made recommendations to the Minister, but when we ask a question we are informed that the Minister has little or no function so far as the Land Commission is concerned.

I want to get some information on this important point of what constitutes the Land Commission. Reading from the Book of Estimates, we find it is a body comprised of five commissioners—a judicial commissioner enjoying a salary much above that of the Taoiseach, and four Commissioners whose rate of remuneration compares most favourably with that of Ministers of State. In view of the fact that the head of the Land Commission holds a position deemed to be so important as to carry a salary higher than that of the Taoiseach, I think we should have much more information regarding this position, the methods by which it is filled and the functions of the man holding that high office. In making this statement, I would like to say I have no personal animosity against any of these people. I am seeking this information because I think it is desirable that it should be made available. I want to get clear information from the Minister when he is replying as to what his functions are in regard to the Land Commission and I want to know also what are the actual functions of the Land Commission. I wonder if Deputy Blowick let the cat out of the bag when he said in the course of his contribution that, so far as dealings with the Land Commission are concerned, the Minister can afford to take it easy. Is it because he has no functions that the Minister can afford to take it easy? That seems to me to be the only interpretation of Deputy Blowick's remarks.

I am not in agreement with the constitution of the Land Commission. I do not agree that a body such as the Land Commission should possess powers completely independent of the House and should not be responsible to the elected representatives for its activities. It seems to me that its activities are shrouded in secrecy. Deputies have little or no right to question these activities. In fact, in the very document the Minister has read, we are told that representations by Deputies regarding the work of the Land Commission are of no effect. We are told that, so far as the Land Commission's work is concerned, we can spare our efforts because they will have no effect. I doubt if the same position obtains in regard to any other State Department. I think it is an outrageous position that the people elected to this House are deemed to have no responsibility whatever for the activities of this Commission. I hope the present Minister will give us some information regarding these functions. I have mentioned this matter here on a number of occasions and I have not yet succeeded in getting the information I require. That is the reason I am making a further bid to get it to-day.

If I were to ask a question next week regarding distribution of land or any other of the Land Commission's activities, I believe I could reasonably expect to get, as I have got before, the most vague type of answer it is possible to give. Putting it simply, the Minister tells us that it is entirely a matter for this body and that he himself has no function whatever. That is the type of information Ministers for Lands have been giving to Deputies during my time here and it is about time that ceased. The Minister is asking the House to vote him £1,250,000 for the work of the Commission over which we are deemed to have no control. That is out of place in a democratic country. It is the right and privilege of the elected representatives of the people to make representation on all matters connected with Land Commission work and to expect reasonable answers to those representations. Those answers are never forthcoming so far as that Department is concerned and it is next to impossible to get information.

In case my remarks may be misinterpreted, I want to stress that I am not advocating that Deputies should usurp functions which are clearly set out for some independent body. I am not advocating that Deputies should have any say in the distribution of land, other than that they should be entitled to make representation on the merits of any particular application for a parcel of land.

So much for the Land Commission and so much for the Commissioners themselves, about whom very few in this House know anything. I believe they are not available to discuss matters with any Deputy. It is surely only in the countries of Eastern Europe that such a position obtains, and it is about time we ended it here. In my constituency, West Cork, I am well aware that the work of the Land Commission is of great advantage, but I am not at all satisfied with the method by which this work is carried out, and I am not at all satisfied with the cost of implementing this work. In West Cork, the main function of the Land Commission is to relieve congestion and remove families to farms in outside districts. Undoubtedly, that is admirable work.

Has the present Minister any idea of the cost of carrying out that work or the time taken to carry it out? I think I am not exaggerating in saying that if the Land Commission acquired one or two farms in a congested district this year, and if the present position continues in the future, it will indeed be 1963 or 1964 before that land will be distributed among the new applicants. One can safely say there will be very many visits from departmental inspectors before any final distribution of that land is made. I am sick and tired of having people call on me making representations with a view to expediting the work. I can name—and any man from my locality can name—the holdings which have been distributed and the time it has taken to distribute them, and, in stating six years, I believe that, if anything, I am minimising the time.

Could the Minister, as the agent, so to speak, of the Land Commission, give us any explanation as to the cause of that delay, or any explanation of the expense incurred—unwarranted expense in many cases—of having an inspector calling over such a period as a number of years? I am speaking now of holdings which are compact and where there is no further opportunity of getting more land to divide, where the arrangement could be proceeded with forthwith and where no difficulties arise, and I am very sorry to have to state that the Land Commission approach to the distribution of this land is the worst possible approach that could be made.

It is regrettable that Land Commission officials, when assessing the applications received for this land and when they visit, as they must visit, and take into account the people living within one mile of the farms to be distributed, sometimes adopt a rather antagonistic attitude instead of trying to get co-operation from the people who are seeking some of these lands.

I appreciate it is a very difficult job —I am not minimising that fact at all—when land is to be provided in a particular district, especially in the part of the country from which I come, where the holdings are nearly always small and mainly uneconomic and the farmers all anxious to get additional land. I realise that the Land Commission inspector is faced with a rather difficult problem. I admit that, but I cannot see why it should take such a long time to solve that problem. When land is divided or when readjustment takes place so that farmers who are getting some land have to hand over some of their own land, if one of these farmers asked such a question as: "What will become of the land I am handing up?" he is given the most abrupt answer possible. That, I think, is most undesirable and a cause of prolonging the business of distribution and increasing the cost.

That is one of the points I want to make very clear in this discussion. Some of the previous speakers, I believe, ranged much wider than the scope of this Vote allows and I am not going to stray from the Vote. I have no more to say beyond the two points that I want cleared up regarding the constitution of the Land Commission and the unwarranted delay in regard to the redistribution of land or the rearrangement of holdings and the unwarranted expense involved in these delays.

My county is very concerned with land acquisition and division. There has been a very great deal of both in that county over the past 20 years. The first concern of the people in my constituency is whether the Land Commission could not consider increasing the parcel of land which they deem to be an economic holding. At present it is reckoned, I believe, as a parcel of land of about £20 P.L.V. and the general consensus of opinion is that that does not give a family a reasonable livelihood.

In present circumstances, I am convinced it is essential that the amount of land parcelled out to people who get it should be a greater amount than the £20 parcel. I do not wish to go quite so far as Deputy Cunningham, up to 50 acres, but I do not disagree with him in advocating that amount of land. If we want to put people on the land—people who will stay on it-we must give them a quantity of land which will ensure for themselves and their families a reasonable livelihood. If we give them a £20 parcel of land, they will have to find other means of adding to the income they can derive from that land in order to keep themselves and their families. They certainly will not be able to give to their families all the things they should enjoy if they are to have a reasonable livelihood.

Regarding the people who get land, I understand at present the arrangement is that smallholders within one mile of an estate will be accommodated, and I was glad to hear the Minister say that not all such persons will get the land, because, in many cases in the past, the mere fact that a person has a small parcel of land beside an estate which was being divided practically automatically gave him the right to a portion of land, and some of the people who got it in these circumstances were people who never used the land and who, in fact, as soon as it became vested in them, sold it by public auction or otherwise.

I think it is right that uneconomic holders should be the first people to be considered, but I am very concerned about the people to whom Deputy Blowick referred, the farmers' sons and the landless men, about whom Deputy Cunningham spoke. I was a member of the Seanad when Deputy Blowick introduced the 1950 Act and my impression at that time was that, for the first time, he made a decision which practically cut out landless men from the scope of land division operations. He further arranged that the Land Commission might purchase land at public auctions, and to-day I find that the purpose of it was to give it to certain landless men. Now he advocates that landless men should get land and I am very glad of it, but my belief in the past was that he did not wish landless men to be accommodated under any circumstances.

I feel that it is not possible to end what is known as congestion by migrating people from counties like Mayo and Galway. I understand that in County Mayo there may be 40,000 people whose P.L.V. is under £10, and most of those are called farmers whose P.L.V. is under £5. I asked Deputy Dillon when he was speaking what he reckoned to be an uneconomic farm and the purpose of that question was to discover whether he included these £5 P.L.V. landowners of Mayo or of other counties. In my county, a cottier with one acre of land will have a P.L.V. of £5 or more, and if he lives in that cottage for 40 years, he would never be reckoned as a farmer by the people, but in that county, so far as I know, the people are called farmers by the Irish Land Commission simply because they are tenants of the Land Commission, no matter what the acreage or the P.L.V. of the land they use.

I do not think it is good policy to send people from these western counties into counties like Tipperary, and even into counties like Meath. I believe the people living in these counties and accustomed to the type of farming there are the proper people to get that land. If landless men get a holding on the land and a home on it, they will have the help of their people in the first instance. They will be accustomed to the system of farming in the area and will be more likely to make a success of the gift which the State is making to them than those brought from the western seaboard. I would ask the Minister to consider as a second category for the Land Commission the landless people living in or near estates which are being divided, and particularly the sons of farmers.

The category Deputy Cunningham mentioned is very important. I think these people have a much greater claim on the land on an estate being divided than the employees on it. I am not denying that the employees on the estate have rights, but these people who have taken land for grazing, and who keep cattle either for producing milk or for sale, these people who have used it as conacre over the years who are dispossessed of these lands and even of the right to take them for letting, are, I feel, definite claimants on any estate which is being divided and should be a category which the Land Commission should take into consideration when an estate is being divided. In my opinion, they have a better claim than the actual employees on the estate.

So far as employees are concerned, I heard some Deputy mention that employees are given land when an estate is being divided. That was the position before the 1950 Act, but after that, my understanding was that they got a cash payment in compensation for being dispossessed of the employment they held on the estate. I think that was one of the best provisions of the 1950 Act because many of the employees who got land in the past were not the best people to use the land after they got it. I think the money consideration was by far a better settlement.

Deputy Dillon gave us a long talk on private ownership, fixity of tenure, and the drift from the land. In fact, I think he spoke far too long on these points. He spoke of fixity of tenure as if he thought some section of the House wished to end it. The first time anything was done by this Parliament which even slightly infringed on the question of fixity of tenure was when Deputy Blowick gave power to the Land Commission to purchase land at public auctions. That was the nearest thing I can think of, although it is far from it, in the work of the Land Commission, to interfere with fixity of tenure and free sale.

As far as the drift from the land is concerned, he seemed to think that he was the sole person in this House with the right to talk about it. He spoke of some of us—he did not refer to any particular person—as if we left the land to get better employment, or better conditions, or something of that description. Everybody who lived in Ireland for the past 50 or 60 years knows that people must leave the land. If we go back 50, 60 or 80 years and go through the towns of Ireland and examine the people who are property owners, we will find that 75 per cent. of the property owners and people in the professions are people who came from the land, and the other 25 per cent. are people whose fathers or mothers came from the land. The townspeople in rural Ireland are practically farmers. Every person living in these towns is as interested in the farming community as he is in his own business in the town because every one of them has a distinct interest in the land. I have land myself in the country. Practically all my people are from the land.

I venture to say that 80 per cent. of the members of this House have direct contact with the land because of the people they sprang from. We know then that some farmers' sons and daughters must leave the land. They cannot live on the 30, 40 or 50 acre farm. We think it is proper they should leave and we are glad that some farmers can give education to their children which will fit them for the professions or for some other calling or trade in the towns which will enable them to make for themselves and the families they rear a livelihood which will be reasonable and good. I believe that while we have in this country families of the size we have had in the past, that condition will prevail until the end and we would be sorry to see a change in that position.

We must have a drift from the land, but our aim should be to keep on the land enough people to make the very best possible use of every acre of arable land in this country. That is one of the things I would urge upon the Minister as Minister for Lands, that, while the purpose of the Land Commission is to relieve congestion, the main purpose should be to have the land divided into such holdings as will give to the bulk of the people of Ireland who live on the land such inducement as will make them remain on the land, the inducement being the reasonable possibility that they will make such use of the land that it will give to themselves and their families a reasonable livelihood. I was very glad to hear the Minister's opening statement giving the outline of his policy when he is in the Land Commission, and actually that has been the Land Commission's policy over very many years.

Many people in the country have the quaintest ideas of the powers of Deputies and the Minister in regard to the acquisition and division of land. Many people seem to think that all they have got to do is go to a Deputy and have him make representations and they will get the land. The purpose of many of us has been to disabuse them of that idea and to let them know that they will not get land unless they are people who come within either of the categories I have mentioned. I think it would be well if that which was outlined to us to-day by the Minister became known throughout the country. I would like to wish the Minister every success in his efforts to put more people on the land. I hope his régime will be prosperous.

The last Deputy must be a very naive individual and so must the present Minister for Lands if they think that the Irish people are going to swallow this statement in connection with the alleged influence used by Deputies in respect of the division of land. When I came into this House in 1948, one of the things which I helped to smash was the political ring in connection with land division. In my own constituency, it was a well-known fact that it would be most desirable for any small farmer or congest to become a member of the local political club, to pay his shilling admission fee and that afterwards his claim for land would be duly forwarded through the local Deputy. That system has been in operation in this country for 35 years. I wonder if it will change. I wonder if the present Party have found that, over the past 30 years, they cut a stick with which to beat themselves.

The argument now used by Fianna Fail is that the pool of land for the relief of congestion has dried up. I wonder if they are serious. I wonder if any member of the Fianna Fail Party, including the present Minister, has taken time off to make a cursory examination of the report of the Commission on Emigration, a report issued by a responsible group of men appointed by the then Government to inquire into the causes of emigration. I wonder if the Minister is aware, first of all, of the majority report of that commission and, then, of one minority report in the name of Dr. Lucey. It would seem as if the members of the Fianna Fail Party never heard of this commission or its report.

The majority of the members of that commission were very conservative men, but, despite their conservative mentality, despite a cautious approach to problems, they recommended a dynamic approach to land division. They were of opinion that the large ranches and farms in the Midlands which are not being properly utilised should be acquired and divided into suitable economic holdings and have placed upon them the people best suited to exploit them. That was the majority report of the commission. The minority report of Dr. Lucey went further. I am glad I have the backing of a Bishop in what I have to say. He pointed out that those who do not utilise the lands are not entitled to hold them.

The Minister has seen fit in this debate to sound a word of warning to the smallholders in the West, to those people who have been given so-called economic holdings, that his Gestapo are now going to turn their attention to the activities of these small farmers —and woe betide the smallholder who does not now do what the Minister for Lands and the members of the Fianna Fail Party desire him to do. I have yet to hear a Fianna Fail Deputy from the West speak in this debate and challenge those words or ram those words down the Minister's throat.

The Minister now threatens the smallholders. He spends his own time and is closely associated with large ranchers and chain farmers in this country, but he now deems it right to use this House and his privileged position as Minister to threaten the smallholders that, if they do not do what he says, power will be used to acquire or resume the land that has been given to them. However, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the Land Commission watch the way in which smallholders use their land, I suggest it is time the Land Commission had a look at the farms in the Mullingar area, in Kildare and in all the other Midland counties where gentlemen can spend an hour a day on horseback around the edges of their estates having a look at the few bullocks sparsely scattered about the huge tracts. I suggest the Land Commission should look at those large farms, some of whose owners may possibly be found in the Shelbourne Hotel in Dublin or, when these gentlemen move off for maybe two months of the year, in London. Will their activities come under the supervision of the Land Commission? Not while Deputy Childers is Minister for Lands. However, the smallholder, the 20-acre farmer, will now have a load of inspectors going into his little holding to see how it is being utilised.

The Deputy is talking absolute and insulting nonsense. He likes to throw mud when he can.

I have the Minister's own record here in front of me. I know that the Minister, all through his period in public life, has come down on the side of the chain farmer and the rancher in Westmeath, Longford, Kildare and elsewhere. His opening address here to-day was on the lines that if the small farmers do not carry out the work as he desires them to do it in the national interest in other words, if he does not get that increase in agricultural output which he wants —steps will be taken to resume their holdings. What action does the Minister intend to take to resume or acquire holdings ranging from 300 to 3,000 acres all over this country that are not being utilised at the present time?

The Deputy did not read my speech.

I listened to it. I will quote the Minister's words. The day the Government was formed, I bet and I am not a betting man at all, that there were not 20 people in the West of Ireland who would say that Deputy Childers would be appointed Minister for Lands. Why? I am not saying this in personal criticism of Deputy Childers. He is entitled to dine, wine and live amongst this group in the Midlands who have no time for the smallholders.

The Minister's personal activities have nothing what-ever to do with his administration as Minister. The Deputy should remember that.

I am remembering it very well.

The Deputy seems to be forgetting it now.

We know that the Minister has the greatest possible admiration for the large farmer. So far as the West of Ireland is concerned, the Minister has little or no knowledge of the conditions under which the congests are expected to live. The Minister himself—I am certain of this —is prejudiced against land division. If this Minister gets his way, there will be a complete close-down on land division. Let little heed be paid to his statement here to-day. What the Minister thinks is what counts. The statements he has made outside this House must be studied and their significance must be driven home to the small farmers and smallholders throughout the country. Their significance must especially be driven home to the congests who have been waiting for years for an extension.

According to the Irish Press of the 1st April, 1957—a very significant date —the Minister is reported as saying, at a meeting in Granard, County Longford, when referring to Government Departments:

"Every Government Department, every Government scheme, demanded detailed examination, the question to be asked being: ‘Can the cost of non-productive work be reduced?'"

He asked

"How, for example, did land division enable greater exports to reach foreign markets? Did the results justify the costs? Would it be better to spend £1,000,000 of any tax collected in a different way to secure greater trade abroad?"

What is that statement but his own belief that land division was a waste of money, a waste of time and something that should be no longer pursued? When Fianna Fail started here, they started as the Party that backed the smallholder, the congest and the workman. They made sure that in the initial stages a dynamic policy of land division was put into operation. I give them full credit for that. I do not care how many mistakes were made, for it is better to do a job and make mistakes than to do nothing at all. In the course of that drive in land division, many mistakes were made and many people got land who should never have got it; but I do not for a moment suggest that Fianna Fáil were wrong in dividing the land. The mistakes made were petty mistakes and they could be corrected.

Alas! we have now reached the stage to-day wherein Fianna Fáil are prepared to say that the danger is that the wrong people will get the land and that the pool of land is drying up. The Party that started with the dynamic approach has now seen fit to appoint the most conservative member of that Party to direct land division. The wheel has come full circle in relation to land division as far as Fianna Fáil is concerned. From being the Party interested in the small man, Fianna Fail has turned around and appointed as head of the Land Commission a man who is primarily interested in the large farmer and the rancher. That is a big change in 30 years. The significance of that change will be brought home outside this House in the next four or five years.

In criticising Fianna Fáil, I offer my criticism not in the hope that Fianna Fail will be replaced by something like what we had in the past three years. God forbid! I listened to the Minister's predecessor to-day and the Minister's predecessor blandly suggested to-day that the Minister should take steps now to implement the 1950 Land Act—I presume, Section 27—so that more economic holdings which have come on the market will be purchased and more alert, young farmers will be given economic holdings.

Mark you, I have here before me the Estimate for the Department of Lands. The House to-day listened to the ex-Minister asking his successor to spend more money under Section 27. What do we find in the Estimate prepared by the Minister's predecessor? We find a reduction of £5,000 as compared with last year under that sub-head; but the ex-Minister blandly suggests to his successor that he should spend more money under this sub-head. That should bring home to this House the sincerity of the previous occupant of the post in relation to this matter.

Deputy Dillon said there was no need for anybody to leave this country through fear of starvation or anything else, that all our people could live here. He said, too, that the emigrant ships are full of people seeking adventure and that it is not economic necessity that drives them out. He referred to daft statements made inside and outside the House by people who suggested that the majority of the emigrants leave in order to make a living. Does Deputy Dillon suggest that a farmer or a worker should stay at home on public assistance? Of whom has he the higher opinion? Of the man of spirit who says: "I will not live on the dole for the next nine months; I will try my fortune elsewhere", or the man of no spirit who is prepared to accept public assistance? For whom has Deputy Dillon the greater respect?

Deputy Dillon describes himself as an emigrant. He said he worked in England and in America—he worked in America all right—but he preferred home. I do not dispute that he prefers home. How many Irish emigrants in Birmingham, in Manchester and elsewhere would like to follow suit? I suggest 95 per cent. of our emigrants would like to emulate Deputy Dillon and come back to Ireland, if they got the chance, to live and work here and get a proper wage. But they cannot come back and it is ridiculous for any man from Ballaghaderreen to suggest that the majority of our emigrants leave for love of adventure, to found a spiritual empire or anything else. I heard Deputy Dillon discuss the Roman Empire and draw comparisons with the empire we are building. I see very little sign of this spiritual empire and, as far as I am concerned, I want it on the records of this House that I would prefer, irrespective of any empire, that we should give an opportunity to our own people to live at home.

I adverted to the statement made by other speakers that the pool of land for the relief of congestion was drying up. I pointed out that the Commission on Emigration answered that plea, and answered it effectively. It is significant that this argument is trotted out year after year and the reason why it is trotted out is that the political Parties are afraid of the large landholders. The large landowners and the ranchers subscribe generously to political war chests. They have a good grip on the major Party and consequently land division is something that cannot be tolerated.

What about the big landholders in Roscommon?

There are quite a few.

To whom did they subscribe?

I can assure the Deputy very few of them subscribed to my war chest.

It is quite apparent they did not subscribe to Fianna Fáil.

The Deputy comes from a congested area. I would ask him to read this debate and, in particular, to read the contribution of Deputy Loughman of Tipperary and his references to the farmer in Mayo. I suggest the Deputy familiarise himself with the opinion held by the Fianna Fáil Deputy for Tipperary in relation to the Mayo farmer. Deputy Loughman suggested that the time was well past when the smallholder in Galway and Mayo should be given land in the Midlands.

He gave reasons for his opinion.

He gave the reasons that suited him. He gave reasons which I hope western Deputies will bear in mind.

We are bearing them in mind.

That does not answer the question about the Roscommon ranchers.

Deputy Loughman said it is not good policy to send congests from Mayo to the Midlands. Does he suggest that land in Tipperary, instead of being given to congests, should be permitted to be purchased by non-nationals?

No, he does not.

How many large farms in Tipperary have passed into the hands of non-nationals in the past 12 years? I suggest that Fianna Fáil Deputies should trot up to the Seanad and have a look at the debates on the various motions tabled by Fianna Fáil Senators in the past ten years, Senators who appreciated what is taking place in Tipperary under the nose of Deputy Loughman—Deputy Loughman, who talks with his tongue in his cheek, about the smallholder in Tipperary. He does not want the western man in Tipperary, but I do not hear him saying a word about the lieutenant-colonel or the retired officer from England who comes to Tipperary and buys a large farm. He is welcomed but the Mayoman or the Galwayman is not welcomed.

Quote the reasons fully. Do not misquote the Deputy.

That is unfair.

The Deputy is entitled to get up and make his speech, when I have finished.

He is young. Let him make it.

Deputy Loughman referred to changes the present Minister is about to make in connection with those who are entitled to land. Let us get this clear. The present position is that, whenever an estate is taken over, priority is given to the uneconomic holders who live within a mile of that estate. Deputy Loughman now suggests that some of these smallholders should not get the land and says he believes that the Minister will adopt that policy. I want the Minister to say if that is true. Is it a fact that, in future, when an estate is taken over, uneconomic holders within a mile of the estate will not get land by reason of the applicants not being suitable? Is that change to take place in the Land Commission? I want that clarified when the Minister is replying because it is of fundamental importance.

Heretofore, the policy pursued by the Land Commission has been based, not on the question of fixing up an applicant, but of fixing up the holding and people living within a mile of an estate that was taken over, whether they were deaf, dumb, blind or 90 years of age, could get a holding so that the holding itself could become economic, and afterwards a son or daughter or nephew or other relation could take over that holding. The whole idea behind land division is, not to fix up the individual, but to increase the number of economic holdings.

Bearing in mind all the talk that took place here about Gestapo investigations of the smallholder and his method of utilising land, let us review the work of the Land Commission for the past 35 years. Let us consider the type and the average valuation of land acquired by the Land Commission in the past 35 years. Did they take the land in Meath that was valued at 16/6 or 18/– per acre? Did they take the good rich land first? Not at all. They took the land that was valued from 3/6 up to 6/6 per acre. That is the land on which they concentrated, the poorest quality combined with the largest acreage, and they put congests on those holdings without giving them any financial assistance. They said: "There is a churn and here is a plough; get going." That is what the Land Commission were doing and these are the people who are now to be cracked down upon by the present Minister.

Let me make it quite clear to the House that in this country to-day there are 12,000 holdings of land, that is to say, 3 per cent. of the entire number of holdings in Ireland, the total valuation of which is £2,250,000. Let us go to the other end of the picture. There are 280,000 holdings, representing 75 per cent. of the holdings of Ireland, the valuation of which is just under £2,000,000. In other words, 12,000 holdings have between them the most valuable land while the other 280,000 holdings have the small valuation of less than £2,000,000.

Where should we look for the output? Where are we to get the expansion of agriculture that everybody has been preaching about for the past three or four years? Will it be obtained on the holding of £15 valuation where the farmer has a struggle to live, where he is utilising the land to the utmost of his ability in order to rear a family? Is it on that holding the increased output will be obtained, or is it from the 12,000 holdings I have mentioned?

Nobody says a word about those 12,000 holdings. They are untouchable and, if I say a word about putting an inspector inside the big demesne gates, I am described in this House as having dangerous tendencies. If I had the decision, I would put inspectors inside the demesne walls every day of the week because the land problem can never be solved until we put before the people the policy that we must undo what Cromwell did. Deputy Loughman should bear in mind that the man in the West of Ireland with the £5 valuation is possibly the descendant of a man who in his day was a big man in Tipperary and was driven across the Shannon by Cromwell.

The main function of the Land Commission is to do away with congestion, to create the greatest possible number of economic holdings, and, while there are holdings ranging from 300 acres upwards that are not utilised, the Land Commission and this House are not doing their job to end congestion. Let me give an estimate to the Minister and ask him to check it and to say if it can be contradicted. Taking the farms that range from 250 acres upwards, with a valuation of over £100, if all the land over and above the 250 acres were acquired for the relief of congestion, we could settle on the best land in Ireland another 25,000 holders with an average acreage of 30 to 50 each. That assessment is to be found in the Report of the Commission on Emigration. In other words, put a ceiling on it. Say that individual ownership of anything over £150 valuation in land will not be tolerated.

That is leaving him with between 250 and 300 acres of good land and that is not bad. In respect of all land he has above that, say "we will pay you for it—we will not acquire it in a Gestapo-like fashion—we will pay you for it and will utilise it to set up economic holdings." That can be done.

Remember, you could have an output from the land of this country if it were divided amongst 40 farmers. You could have vast tracts of land ploughed by tractors where a human being might be seen only on rare occasions. You could get a huge output of wheat and barley and possibly of all crops at a very economic figure. Is that what we are aiming at? Are we putting output before human beings? Are we trying to create a situation that we will compete on the international market with Holland and Denmark on costs or will we compete on the basis that we will give a reasonable living to the greatest possible number of families in this State? An acreage of 10,000 divided in 50-acre family units is better for the country than leaving that land in the hands of three or four individuals, regardless of what their output may be.

Consider what it means to factories, industrial concerns, social services and so on. The more people there are, the greater the production within the State, the greater the consumption, the lower the taxes and the costs of amenities. If there are ten miles of countryside outside Dublin and only ten people living along that road, the cost of the road is the same as it would be if there were 10,000 living along the road, and the ten will have to bear the cost. The smaller the number of people involved, the greater the cost per head of the installation of telephones or electricity. Farmers and businessmen are crying about rates and increased costs of services. Why? Why is it taking place?

One of the main reasons is that there is a dwindling population and, as that population goes down, it becomes harder and harder for those remaining to carry the burden of the demand for services. There-fore, I suggest that the policy of the Land Commission should be to put the greatest possible number of families on the land of Ireland. It does not matter whose toes are trod on. If we found that it was possible since 1944 for over 150,000 acres of the finest land of Ireland to be allowed into the hands of aliens, surely it is possible for us on that basis to start in and create a pool of land which, within a specified period, will put an end to congestion.

I have no faith whatever in this present Minister—I say it with regret, because he is a man of ability. Perhaps in forestry he will do a much needed job but I am afraid for the future. I am afraid that for the smallholder and for the congest, the door is closed, that hope is gone, while this man holds reign as Minister for Lands.

That is a disgraceful thing to say.

The discussion has wandered very much from the work of the Irish Land Commission. During this debate, we have wandered to physical and spiritual empires. There are possibly as many different views on the acquisition and distribution of land as there are Deputies in this House, because we all come from different areas, where there are different land questions. I can understand readily the attitude of Deputy Loughman, coming from Tipperary. If I happened to live in Tipperary, probably I would have the same views, but coming from a congested area along the western seaboard I must, of course, differ entirely. I hold that the intention when the Irish Land Commission was set up, was to relieve congestion, that is, to acquire big estates in the eastern and perhaps the southern portion of Ireland and divide them up into farms of 25, 30, 40 or 50 acres and give them to the uneconomic holders from the West of Ireland.

I agree with at least one thing Deputy McQuillan said, that the people who are living in small, uneconomic holdings around the west and south-west of Ireland are the descendants of those who were driven by Cromwell and during the various Anglo-Irish Wars, driven west and south-west where they had to eke out a living on very small farms, if one could call them farms at all. The idea, then, of the Land Commission was that the holdings in these areas should be made economic as far as possible and in order to do that, of course, land had to be acquired—and there were big estates in Leinster and parts of Munster.

Certainly, a farm of 300 acres in Leinster or parts of Munster would be regarded as entirely too large. At the same time, I do not think it would be right for the Land Commission to take compulsorily any portion of a man's land. I would say that if that man were wise and if he had a family of sons and daughters, he would divide it up into holdings of, say, 50 acres which should be regarded as economic. In that way, while not interfering with rights—with the fixity of tenure to which Deputy Dillon and others referred—there would be created more intensive cultivation of the land. The number of land holders would be increased and it would really mean what Deputy McQuillan said, that there would be more production, more consumers and so on.

At any rate, while complaints have been made about the acquisition and distribution of land, I am sure the Land Commission has a very difficult job. It takes a long time to acquire land. There may be many difficulties in the way and it is only right that everything should be examined before land is acquired from its registered owner. Again, when congests get land in the Midlands, it is known—at any rate in my constituency and I am sure in various other places—that the land which has been left vacant, when the tenant has been removed, is left there for quite a number of years without being divided among the local congests. That creates a great deal of unrest among applicants who consider that they have a right to a portion of that land. Another cause of trouble is that on these lands there are houses —good, new houses, mostly Gaeltacht houses—and the longer they are left there untenanted the more they deteriorate. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to look up cases like that. We have several cases down in South Kerry in various estates, where congests have got farms in the Midlands and the land they left behind is still undivided. The land has been let—in some cases for a number of years. Perhaps the idea of the Land Commission is that they would make some money which might recompense them for the expense incurred in the acquisition and distribution of the land. However, if they divide the land as quickly as possible, will the people who get it not be paying for it in the annuities?

As regards this question of the people who are best entitled to land, I agree entirely with the statement of the Minister that they should be very careful in the giving of land, where division is taking place, to people who are likely to make the best use of it. Even though there may be an uneconomic holder in the neighbourhood, if he is a useless idle farmer what is the use in giving him extra land?

I would not go as far as the Minister in connection with getting Land Commission inspectors to supervise the use made by the allottees of the land allotted to them. If land is given to well-known industrious farmers, there will be no need at all for such supervision by any inspectors of the Irish Land Commission. It will be the duty of the inspectors or instructors of the Department of Agriculture to help those people and I am sure that any good farmer will always avail himself of their services. I do not think the inspectors or officials of the Land Commission would wish to act as supervisors or to be engaged in looking after lands which have been allotted, to see if they have been properly and economically worked.

I should like to refer to the question of the Land Commission purchasing land under Section 27 of the 1950 Act. There are many instances in which farmers may be anxious to sell land. In some cases there may be large farmers living in areas surrounded by numerous congests. If such farmers put their lands up for auction I think the Land Commission should be authorised to step in and endeavour to acquire such lands. I would not go so far as to recommend that a Land Commission inspector would be empowered to bid at the auctions, but the Commission could employ an auctioneer to bid and endeavour to purchase the holdings concerned.

I should like to speak of the big mountain ranches of South Kerry. A man living there might be anxious, from the point of view of the education of his children, to have the Land Commission acquire his land on the rearrangement principle, but the Land Commission will not acquire such farms because the surrounding farms are all large and the owners do not require any more land. I think the Land Commission should be empowered to give that man an exchange of holding and to use his land for afforestation. I believe this would require legislation, but I think such legislation should be introduced because I know that several farmers living in these remote areas are very anxious to get exchange holdings. The only use to which such land could be put would be afforestation. Farmers like these would not agree to sell their farms in the ordinary way because the money they would get for them would be of no use; the price they would get would not buy them a 25-acre farm in the Midlands.

The whole question of the acquisition, division and rearrangement of land is a difficult one. We understand all the delays and difficulties and we should be reasonable in that regard. I feel sure the officials of the Land Commission always do their best, and as far as I am concerned everything they do is quite fair. I fully agree that no political influence should be exercised in these matters. In fact Deputies should be very glad to keep clear of exercising influence on behalf of applicants because in favouring one or more applicants they only make numerous enemies. It would be very foolish for Deputies to interfere in such cases. That is all I have to say. I wish the Minister every success. He is reputedly a very active man and I hope that when his term of office comes to an end he will have done good work for land division and land allocation.

As one of those who for the past 15 years has been speaking on Land Commission Estimates I get rather fed up with these matters because I find that, no matter what you set out to emphasise, your case generally comes to the same ending. My sole reason for speaking here this evening is to warn the Minister. Before I develop on that line, I would ask the Minister not to take me as being personal in anything I may say because I fully realise the Minister's ability in many ways. However, when a change of Government came about and when the Taoiseach announced that he had given this portfolio to Deputy Childers, as a man from the West, from a congested area, I got worried. That is the reason why I stand up this evening to issue a warning to the Minister.

I have here a copy of the Irish Press, the paper they call “Truth in the News.” Apparently this paper could not tell lies. The date is April 1st, All Fools' Day, a very appropriate date for an important statement by the Minister for Lands. The paper reports a statement made by the Minister at Granard, Longford, on the previous day. The Minister was referring to land acquisition, division and rearrangement. While I sit in this House, on this side or elsewhere, I will see that the Minister for Lands, whether he be Deputy Childers or somebody else, will do his job. This is what the Minister for Lands, Deputy Childers, said at Granard, as reported on All Fools' Day:

"How, for example, would land division enable greater exports to reach foreign markets? Would the results justify the costs? Would it be better to spend £1,000,000 of any tax collected in a different way to secure greater trade abroad?"

That is the prospect the people of the congested areas on the western seaboard have from the Minister for Lands. That is his statement as published in the Irish Press, on All Fools' Day.

The Deputy said that four times. What does he think?

What does Deputy Flanagan think of it? What do the people of South Mayo think of it?

I shall soon tell the Deputy when I deal with him in a few moments.

I put this statement to the Minister for an explanation. If that statement means anything it means the close down of land acquisition, the close down of land rearrangement and of land distribution generally. I ask the Minister if he can put any other interpretation on that statement. I have quoted him word for word. I ask the Minister to change that statement if he can. If the statement means what I think it does, I want here and now to throw out a warning, as a representative of the people of a congested area. I warn the Government as well as the Minister that if this statement bears the interpretation I have given it they will not be long in offce.

I listened to a Fianna Fáil Deputy from Tipperary. What he had to say about the people in the congested areas did not surprise me. The idea is to put them any place but "do not put them into my county". Some years ago, I heard another Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party referring in this House to the cottiers of the West of Ireland as hen roosters. As regards the Minister's statement that representations by Deputies were nonsense, when he was making that statement, instead of looking across here, he should have been looking to the other side of the House, because I know well that, when Fianna Fáil Deputies heard the Land Commission had acquired land or were about to acquire land, they rushed into the area. They told a few of the lieutenants there that they were coming and they were going to divide the land.

That is a Clann na Talmhan racket, not a Fianna Fáil racket.

It is a Fianna Fáil racket. They were coming to divide the land. They held meetings. I can give an instance which will be of interest to the Minister, I am sure. This really happened.

Big Joe's big stick.

I do not mind Deputy Flanagan's interruptions. This is getting under his skin. If he has a speech to make and if he is able to make it, he is entitled to stand up here and do so. I know instances in North Galway where the Land Commission in the usual way acquired land or were about to acquire land, and where Fianna Fáil Deputies went into the area and held a meeting. They got people innocent enough to believe that they had the giving out of the land. I know one instance where a Fianna Fáil Deputy got people to assemble around the old turf fire; they pulled out the ashes and began to draw the mearings round a large farm that was to be taken. One man was a supporter and he got this piece which was near him; another person got that piece which was near him; then another fellow arrived and he got another piece which was supposed to be near him. It was all divided at last when somebody else came along and said: "I supported you, too." Then they said: "You will have to get a piece. Let us start all over again." However, in the middle of the second distribution, somebody said: "That fellow voted for so-and-so. We will have to have another scheme", and the whole thing had to start again. If there are any people who have sinned to catch a few lousy votes, it is the Fianna Fáil Party with rackets of that description.

I hope the Minister will live up to the statement he made here. Nobody will assist him to do so more than I will, because it is a crime that honest, decent people should be led astray by any Deputy making out that he can usurp the functions of the Land Commission. In cases where land was distributed in my area—I talk about my own area only where I have had many complaints—as the Minister has pointed out, when the complaints were fully investigated, there was only half of 1 per cent. to which there could be any objection. I believe the inspectors of the Land Commission do good work. They have hard work to do. They are sometimes deceived and attempts are made very often to deceive them. Watching them closely in the congested areas, I can say it is very seldom they make any mistake, but, in cases, they have been badly deceived and then this sort of thing can happen.

In conclusion, may I say that I believe that the first job of the Minister for Lands is land acquisition, distribution and rearrangement? That and that alone is his job. In regard to his statement which appeared in the Irish Press on All Fools' Day, I would like him to inform the House if it means closing down. I want to tell the Minister that it is not the remnants of the landlord that count in this country. It is not the few remaining landlords who count, whether they are the Satchwells, the Oranmore and Brownes or anybody else.

The Deputy should not mention names.

I am sorry. The Minister's job in charge of the Land Commission is the same as that of the old Congested Districts Board, to ensure that, where lands can be acquired in any area, some people will be taken from the congested areas to where land is plentiful in other parts of our country so that they can get new holdings and so that the land they leave can be distributed amongst the uneconomic holders in the area. That is the Minister's job. While he works in that direction, he will have my solid support, but if his idea is in accordance with his statement in Granard on All Fools' Day, he will find me in opposition to him.

Deputy Donnellan tried to be offensive in his peroration and I should like to make one comment before dealing with the broad question of acquisition and division of land, and it is that the individual whom he mentioned and who happens to be a constituent of mine does not deserve any denunciation from Deputy Donnellan or anybody else. The use being made by Lord Oranmore and Browne of the land he owns in Castlemagarrett—and admittedly he has a big holding—is exemplary and the complete answer to the statement made by Deputy McQuillan and by other people that we have a dead level of mediocrity in the country. I am not arguing for or against big estates, for or against congests, or for or against the Land Commission. What I am saying is that if a man has a holding, big or small, if he is producing the maximum that energy, initiative and drive can produce, he is entitled to the thanks of the people and of the people's representatives, and not their denunciation.

I would like the House to remember that if a person who is an agricultural labourer can get employment on a large holding, perhaps assisting at a sawmills, perhaps in a clerical capacity or simply as a labourer, and can draw from his employment sufficient wages to keep himself and his family in comfort, then he is as well off as if he were given an economic holding of land. He is better off than living on a sub-economic holding of land and trying to support his wife and family. There is no such thing as a conclusive argument in favour of any particular type of holding.

Of course Deputy Donnellan has gone away now. He was waving a paper in which a speech by the Minister for Lands was reported and he made great play with the fact that it was made on All Fools' Day. I am not playing politics. I do not want to play politics or anything else with Deputy Donnellan. It is too late in the day to be playing politics in this House on matters as serious, as expensive and vital to the country as the increased production we are hoping for from the land and which we are hoping the Land Commission will help to produce. I say to Deputy Donnellan that he ran away from the question posed by the Minister for Lands on that occasion.

The question was—and I will repeat it for Deputy Donnellan and for everybody else from the western seaboard —is the work that the Land Commission is doing and the results it has achieved justifying the expenditure that was made and would we have done better in spending a like sum of money otherwise for the relief of the problem? Could we now reverse the trend and spend a quantity of money —look, I will give an example. Deputy McQuillan comes from Roscommon and it is a county I happen to know fairly well. I pass through other good lands on my way to Dublin and I see lands which are being neglected and on which many people could make a living and which are now being eaten up by furze bushes and weeds. They are not producing anything and are lying idle.

I am delighted to see around my own home that money is being spent under the land reclamation project in rehabilitating land of which the excellent farmers in my locality will use every perch. Why is it that we should be spending money on one side of the country on rehabilitating land, when a similar amount of land is being allowed to go to waste in other parts of the country? At a time when money for any capital project is so scarce, the question again arises: on which project or in which way can we best spend our limited resources?

With regard to the Land Commission, we must ask if the results have justified the money spent on it. I said in this House many years ago that my answer to that question was "No". I repeat that to-day, because that is my honest belief. I see around my own locality areas where there are up to 200 acres of land which are lying idle and which could be acquired by the Land Commission and which have not been acquired. In those same areas, there is hardly a house which has not sent two or three sons away to England and I do believe that if there was nothing at all about the acquisition and division of land by an outside power, these people would have acquired those lands themselves in the ordinary way and would be working them now. I know of one place in Carracastle where there are something like nine vacant holdings in an area of three adjoining townlands. I believe that, if there was no question of the Land Commission in the background, these people would have acquired that land for themselves. We must ask ourselves the question and I believe we must answer it honestly.

Of course it is disappointing that this state of affairs should exist at all when the Land Commission has the necessary power. It is doubly disappointing when the people who are looking for land believe that political power and influence will enable them to better their case. That, of course, is not true, but what is unfortunately true and what is very regrettable is that substance was given to that belief by the Minister's predecessor who was a representative of Clann na Talmhan and who abused his position as Minister for Lands——

It is not well-known Fianna Fáil practice?

It did great damage to the congested people he was supposed to represent and he attempted to do a Punch and Judy act by being the man pulling the strings behind the scenes.

The term "Punch and Judy" should not be applied to an ex-Minister.

With respect, Sir, I did not say that. I said that he tried to put on a Punch and Judy act and I submit it is quite relevant, and I am not prepared to withdraw it.

If the Chair feels that it is out of order, the Deputy will withdraw it.

I will withdraw it, if the Chair feels it is out of order. I do withdraw it, if that is satisfactory. I do believe and I say that we are doing nothing but a disservice to the people of the West by perpetuating the belief that one can have a Land Commission which can be truly described as a Commission, without at the same time being independent. One thing I have always looked for is a Minister for Lands who does not come from the congested areas. I believe the fact that he comes from an area which is not congested will give him an objectivity in facing the problems which he meets. That is lacking in a person who comes from a congested area and who depends for his votes on the people he is approaching. The man from a non-congested area is not in the intolerable position in which a person coming from the congested areas finds himself.

There are some matters to which I have referred over the years and to which I should like to refer again. One of them concerns the present position with regard to the redemption of land bonds. Some improvement has taken place in the price of the bonds over the past four or five months, but, even so, they are still standing at considerably below par, except in regard to the very recent issues which were at, I think, 5¼ or 5 per cent. These are standing reasonably near par and there is no serious complaint about them, but there is about the others, particularly among people who cannot afford the time to draw sufficient as half-yearly dividends from them to make up the deficit between what they are getting and the face value of the bonds at present. I appreciate there are very great difficulties between the Minister and the solution of this problem, but I think for future purposes the land bond system ought to be abolished. You cannot very well make legislation covering past cases. It is a bad idea and there is no precedent for it here except in very exceptional circumstances. But I believe that for the future we should abandon the land bond principle and have people paid otherwise.

Another factor that would make for speed in regard to the division of land is this. As soon as a price is fixed or the Land Commission have agreed to accept a price as fixed by the Appeal Tribunal or otherwise, there should then be power to go ahead with proving the title to the property. At present no effort is made until possession is taken over. There may be, and very often is, a considerable lapse of time between the fixing of the price and the actual taking over of possession. In some instances people who are having land acquired from them try, for one reason or another, to get an extension of the time. In many cases the owners have sound reasons to feel that they should be granted such an extension and the Land Commission is sympathetic towards them. There are ever so many reasons why a farmer should be allowed a certain length of time so that he will not have to hand over possession in the middle of one of the seasonal cycles. In those instances it seems a pity that the time involved should be wasted as it is at present because title cannot be proved until possession is taken over.

Another matter that the Land Commission should attend to is this. They should make better known to people who have been now paying their annuities for something like 50 years —I am referring particularly to the smallholders in the west of Ireland—that it would take very little to redeem their annuities at this stage. Many of them do have to redeem these annuities for one reason or another. Some have to do so because they are selling and like to describe their land as what they deem "freehold". In their view what they are paying to the Land Commission is not an annuity but a rent. I believe it would benefit both the Land Commission and the small farmer if the latter were given an opportunity of redeeming his annuity now. Were this done a certain amount of the clerical work involved in this particular branch of the Commission would be rendered unnecessary, thereby cutting down administrative costs.

It was Deputy Palmer, I think, who mentioned something about the Land Commission bidding at public auctions. I think it is well that it should be made public that, in point of fact, the Land Commission have now entirely suspended the operation of the section under the 1950 Act which gave them the right to acquire land up to a certain value by bidding at public auction. It is perhaps not very well known that that is so and it is well that it should be known because hundreds of people, particularly in my constituency, still believe that the Land Commission can move in and acquire land by bidding at public auctions. The fact is that, whether they can, or cannot, the Land Commission are not now doing so. As I say, it is as well that people should realise that fact so that there will not be a misapprehension as regards the position of the Land Commission.

Mention was also made of the delay in the division of acquired holdings. In this respect we have in Mayo at the moment a grievance over the delay in the division of the Nally estate, which is probably one of the biggest acquisitions in the County for a number of years. It is also, I understand, one of the last major acquisitions we can expect in a county where land is rapidly growing scarce. The Land Commission should proceed with all haste at this stage to distribute this particular estate. A start has been made and one or two people have been given exchange holdings but otherwise very little has been done. These people are entitled to have their problems settled. I am referring to those who will get land as well as those who will not be as fortunate. There are many who will not be fortunate, but I know I am speaking for them when I say they would like to know one way or the other so they could make their plans accordingly.

Earlier in the debate I listened with some interest to the views on emigration given by Deputy Dillon. With much of what he has to say I find myself in agreement. What we should look forward to is a system of education which will breed in people a greater love of rural life and a greater understanding and appreciation of the joys and blessings of living in a rural area. It is unfortunately true that the drift from the land is not peculiar to this country. It is unfortunately true that what people regard as a higher standard of living, because of the availability of television sets and the like, has had the result of attracting young people, and even middle-aged people, more than ever before. We should try to educate our children to a greater appreciation of the blessings, advantages and joys of rural life. I say that as a person born in the heart of the country and as one who wishes nothing more than that he could have remained there. In other words, Deputy Dillon is not altogether right because he believes that some of us voluntarily left the land. I did not voluntarily leave the land. I would have liked if I could have stayed there always.

I hope that we will solve this problem. Of course, we cannot solve it in a free country except by consent. We will never solve it with any commission, any Department or any instrument coming down on people from above. We will solve it only when that instrument, that commission and that Department is working on people, young and old, who have deep down in them a love of the land and the desire to live on the land and to produce from the land, a desire which was characteristic of our forbears and which will lead us to a better country in the future.

I wish the Minister every success. I know that he has courage, initiative and ability. I deprecate the action of those who referred to him to-day in derogatory terms. Above all else, I hope that he will continue to be objective in his attitude to the question that he posed for himself and that was published on the 1st April and referred to by Deputy Donnellan. We are having great difficulty at the present time in finding sufficient money to go ahead with the capital and other programmes we need if we are to develop our country. It behoves us inside and outside the House to consider all our problems. Congestion, re-distribution of land and increasing production are among our biggest problems. It is in the right use of money, saved in the very best possible way, that we can do most for the benefit of every section of the community. I know the Minister will look at his problems in that way and I wish him every success.

The quality and standard of the debate on the Estimate for Lands vary very little from year to year when the views of the House as a whole come to be assessed. The only difference is that the change that comes about in the approach to the Minister's opening statement depends to a very large extent, I fear, upon which side of the House the speaker is standing at that particular time.

Before going into the merits or demerits of the Minister's speech I want to take this opportunity, as somebody with very subjective experience myself of personal attacks, to deprecate in the strongest possible terms personal attacks, or attacks made on the personal capacity of a Minister, either inside or outside the House. I have no doubt that on either side of the House there can be found, at any time the people wish it, a body of people to constitute a Cabinet adequate to the people's needs, and it is for that reason that, while politically we in Opposition have to be vigilant and watchful, nevertheless, we—and I think I can speak for all my colleagues —desire to make no political progress by casting aspersions on a Minister or Ministers in their personal capacities. It is for that reason I want to say that in good work and work which commends itself to us, we wish the present Minister success in this task, which has been a great task all down the years, undertaken by successive Ministers of different Parties.

My line on the Vote for the Department of Lands has been more or less the same since I came to this House. There may have been differences of detail such as do not provide any great cause for major controversy, but I find it rather extraordinary that, year after year, speakers—I mean speakers on all sides of the House—find it necessary, either because they are seeking publicity or for the purpose of ingratiating themselves with certain sections of their constituents, to make attacks upon either the person or the salary of a Judicial Commissioner of the Land Commission. These matters were all settled by legislators in this House down the years; people go into these positions as they become vacant; all of them do their work and, in my respectful opinion, all of them at all times work irrespective of the particular Government that gave them their warrants of appointment, and do that work well.

I think I can agree with the general view taken by the Minister that there were very few, if any, occasions upon which the Land Commission allowed itself to be brow-beaten by steamrolling deputations or representations made by Deputies of the Party in power or of the Party in opposition. That does not mean that representations have not been made. I am sorry that Deputy Flanagan on the Government back-benches has thought fit to come in here with the insinuation underlying the whole of his references to representations, that it all started with the Clann na Talmhan Party. Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth.

I am quite satisfied that representations, such as those referred to by the Minister, were made to the first Government of this State by Cumann na nGaedheal; I am satisfied that such representations were made with—from my point of view—possibly greater force by representatives of the Fianna Fáil Party during their first régime, but I would like to think that the Minister is correct—and I am inclined to accept his view—when he says that those representations have had very little effect, if any, all down the years. I would like to think that, because I would like to know and feel sure that the Land Commission, as constituted, is functioning according to the terms of the enactments under which it was set up, and that it is operating in its own effective, if sometimes slow, way, giving justice to everybody at all times.

I fear that my experience of the Land Commission is not very much, because ever since I came into this House and long before it, I accepted in practice the judicial or quasi-judicial independence of the Land Commission and, therefore, never sought to bring any pressure to bear upon it. But when we talk about representations we must distinguish between the different types, and I think the Minister will find it necessary to distinguish in that manner also. There is the representation of a Deputy who will try to get land for his political friends, for his relatives or for some very close friend to whom he is obliged for some reason or other. That is not representation, of course; it is a form of corruption which should not be tolerated.

There is the representation which a Deputy—and I am sure every Deputy in this House has had reason from time to time to make this kind of representation—may make on behalf of proposed allottees or on behalf of some of them, where an injustice or a possible cause of trouble would not be manifest to the local official at the time of his examination of the problem but which would be manifest to the Deputy who would have knowledge of local affairs. Land division has many times caused some of the parties involved to spend their time in the district courts because of trespass or breaches of the peace or other things about which people can go to court, wasting their time and their substance on trivialities and matters that would not have arisen were it not for the fact that these particular occurrences or at least the likelihood of their occurring, were not taken into account by the official concerned, not because he omitted to do it deliberately, but because everybody's understanding is limited and some degree of fallibility pursues even Land Commission officials.

My personal view of Land Commission officials is that they approach their problems with a courage and understanding that one is not likely to expect in some of the younger men with less experience. There was no occasion upon which representations were made to the Land Commission by me—and they were very few—that they were not of the type which involved not a question of land but a question of harmony between neighbours afterwards. But these representations were listened to and were followed up to the good of all concerned.

I should like to think that what the Minister meant by representations and deputations was not that political supporters would get land just because a particular Government happened to be in power. I should like to think that he would listen to the representations of Deputies who might for some reason best known to themselves, good and valid reasons at all times, be able to weigh in as to the merits of one particular person as against another, but, where all things are equal, I agree it is best to leave it to the Land Commission and their officials to determine who should get land and who should not.

There is a suggestion in this speech of major changes. Perhaps when he closes the debate, the Minister will give us some indication if he can at this stage—I appreciate his difficulties by way of time and the opportunity he has had to study these problems—of the major changes he has in mind. I do not accept the view that this speech is an attack on the small farmers and the congests. As a matter of fact, I think there is somewhere in the speech a suggestion that the Minister himself is forced to the conclusion that the smaller farm is likely to be the more productive and effective in the nation's economy. It might not be put exactly that way but that is my interpretation of it.

I noticed that in the matter of housing he is consulting the Irish Country-women's Association. It is to be hoped that the introduction of another body of advice in the affairs of the Land Commission will not bring about any greater slowness in the development of their particular plans and schemes.

It is quite true, as the Minister said on sub-head R in relation to the operations of Section 27 of the Land Act 1950, that is, the purchase of land for market value, that such operations by the Land Commission are governed by the budgetary conditions prevailing. I think it would be wise if the Land Commission, prior to "walking" the land, as they say, or inspecting the land and prior to taking any action consequent upon that inspection with a view to acquisition, took full cognisance of the fact that the particular farm they expect at that particular time might come within the range of farms which would be too dear to acquire, as has happened often in relation to the budgetary conditions prevailing. Whether conditions of uncertainty arise from international causes or from domestic upheavals within, there can also be uncertainty on a holding of land or a farm where the people do not know from month to month what the end of it all is going to be. While these operations of the Land Commission are of necessity slow they, nevertheless, inflict a great hardship and uncertainty upon the owner of the land inasmuch as he does not know whether he is going to be able to retain his land or lose it or what he is going to do with the compensation payable to him.

I heard the same kind of statement that was made by Deputy Loughman made by members of my own Party who happen to come from the same type of land. I think the occupants of the good land in Meath, Kildare—I suppose I may as well include South Tipperary, seeing that Deputy Loughman wants to include it—resent people from smaller holdings in Mayo, Galway, Donegal and Kerry coming on to the lands of those counties. It has been suggested that there have been failures. I do not think there are very many cases where there have been failures. In fact, from my experience of them—I am talking solely of Mayomen, Galwaymen, and possibly Kerrymen—they have been distinct successes on the holdings which they got. There were other objections made by Tipperarymen.

That is their point of view. That is the point of view of a Tipperaryman in relation to people from the poorer lands of the West but I should like to know whether the view of the South Tipperary men, as expressed here to-day by Deputy Loughman, is the accepted view of the Government. I should not think it is. I do not think anybody should be unduly perturbed by it. I think it is the view of a man speaking for the type of people from the constituency from which he comes. But when we consider the migration of people from the poorer counties and from the more congested districts into the richer and less populous areas, we have to consider also that the time must come, and the Minister has indicated that that time is fairly near, when the bulk of land will become very small if, indeed, available at all for such people. What is to be done then?

That brings me to a project in which I am extremely interested and which I commend to the Minister and the Land Commission. I think he has sufficient information already in memoranda from me in relation to it. There are vast tracts of land on the western sea-board, on the semi-fertile slopes and hillsides and in very rich valleys, which are unoccupied and which could be inhabited and which would certainly give holdings to three families at the cost of one in the Midlands. In doing that—the Minister by directive policy and the Land Commission in practice—would not be doing any disservice to the people they would propose to take to Meath.

There are different types of people on the western coast. There are people dying to get to Meath or Kildare or to any other place where there are farms to be divided but there are people on the western coast from Donegal to West Cork who would not leave if they got the whole of the estate on which 20 people were to be settled. It is those people I have in mind when I commend seriously to the Minister the project I have already submitted to the Land Commission in relation to one particular estate—the cultivation and adequate fertilisation of holdings along these mountainsides.

It is one way of retaining the western population and of helping to maintain it. It will strengthen the view expressed here by Deputy Flanagan that we must cultivate a love of country life in our people. I also think, in common with the views put forward by other people—I mentioned it last year, I think, on this Estimate—that in the division of lands acquired in the vicinity of a town, upon which some of the townspeople have grazing and conacre rights, those graziers or conacre people have certainly a very strong moral claim to some consideration when these lands are being divided. It is quite clear to me—as it must be quite clear to everybody—that the temporary convenience letting, the grazing letting or conacre letting, gives no rights. When a man living in a small town has been keeping a cow or two and maybe sometimes selling milk to supplement whatever earning he may have, but certainly obviating the necessity to buy milk for himself and his family and has had grazing rights over a long number of years, he has a moral right to consideration when that land is being divided and it is something which I think should not be ignored.

I welcome the Minister's statements on pages 7, 8 and 9 of his statement in reference to the question of representations. I want him to be realistic about it. I should like to think he is realistic and I have no reason to believe he is not. I hope he will be able to put that view very strongly to members of his own Party.

I referred to this matter last year also on the debate on this Estimate. Only three weeks ago, on a farm that was being divided in my constituency, a Fianna Fáil Deputy appeared for no purpose other than to create the illusion that, whatever the result of the division, he was responsible for it. That kind of thing in public life is degrading. Not alone is it degrading, but it is bringing the standard of public life down to a very low level. If, as members of a free Irish Parliament, we are unable to advance the interests of our constituents and our country as a whole by honest endeavour, by competent discussion and by agreement on major points, forgetting about the details, without deceit, without creating illusions, without the hypocrisy that attends these visits to areas of Land Commission activity or, indeed, any other kind of activity, then we do not deserve to be parliamentarians at all.

I would urge upon the Land Commission, through the Minister, a ing up of their rearrangement and resettlement schemes. It is true that large tracts of land—and when I say "large tracts" I mean large tracts—even in the West of Ireland, which were acquired upwards of 20 years ago are still being let to local people. In particular, I know one village from which two families were taken 24 years ago and transferred to County Meath and from which, this year, two more families have been taken and, in the intervening years, no effort was made to deal with the lands the others left behind. It causes a certain loss of morale in a district to see lands left derelict, not being worked, or subject to that peculiar form of year-to-year tenure from the Land Commission, not knowing what particular moment they may come in and take them back again.

I am also of opinion that where a resettlement or rearrangement scheme is going very well and where only one neighbour steps in to interrupt the progress of the work, it is better that the Land Commission should use the powers they undoubtedly have to force that resettlement, to force that scheme through, rather than allow the caprice of one person to destroy the long-anticipated happiness and contentment of a whole village.

I sincerely trust that all the things mentioned by the Minister in his opening speech will come to pass. I hope it will be possible for the Land Commission to effect all the proposals, or at least some of them, laid down here. As I said at the beginning, I should like to know what major changes the Minister has in mind. Possibly it is too early for him to indicate them at this stage. Nevertheless, it would give us an opportunity of knowing whether the same policy will be pursued or whether there will be a substantial deviation from the policy in operation up to the moment.

I have listened to both Deputy Lindsay and Deputy Donnellan refer to interference in the division of land. Both of them know very well that no Deputy has any power to interfere in the division of land. Neither can the Minister interfere in the division of any estate. The elected representatives in this House at the present day seem anxious to shed every bit of responsibility the people have given them. I will interfere in every estate that is divided in my constituency and I will make no apology to anyone for doing so. I have very frequently succeeded in preventing grave injustice from being done.

That is the right type of interference.

It is all very well for Deputy Lindsay to talk with his tongue in his cheek. Some Deputies need not interfere in a division or worry about it when they have their brothers-in-law, as Land Commissioners, dividing it, as is the case in Limerick and Clare at present.

The Deputy should not refer to people in such a way.

I am referring to counties and to what is going on.

The Deputy is making an attack on officials who cannot speak for themselves.

I hear any amount of complaints about congested holdings.

For the past 30 years, I have complained here about some thousands of acres of land, the property of the State, lying at the Curragh. I would not grudge seeing people from Mayo or Galway or Roscommon or any other county where there is a congested area brought in and that land divided amongst them. It is more than time that that was done. To our shame, at a time when farmers were being prosecuted because they did not plough and because they did not till, the State itself had these thousands of acres of land lying idle there, land which never saw a plough. I have heard the excuse given that the land is not suitable for tillage. Look at the land adjoining it and see the manner in which it is tilled.

Some four or five years ago, a Bill was passed here with a great flourish of trumpets enabling the Land Commission to take over land from the Department of Defence. I had been some ten years agitating in connection with the Kilworth estate, and I should like to hear from the Minister now the reasons why that estate has not yet been taken over and divided. Near Mitchelstown, there is another large area of land held by the Department of Defence. That land is worked by tenant farmers who are rearing their families on it. I understand they have it under a 12-months letting. I am further informed that the Land Commission has refused to take over that land from the Department of Defence or to make those people, who have held that land for the last 20 years, tenants of it. As their representative here, I want to know the reason for that.

We have heard a good deal about rackrenting landlords, but, in this case, the Department of Defence out-Herods Herod. The rackrents these unfortunate people have to pay on these yearly lettings are a disgrace. Surely, if a man has been 20 years in occupation of a holding, it is high time he was made the owner of it. What kind of medieval machinery does the Department of Defence still operate here?

The Minister for Lands is not responsible for the policy of the Minister for Defence.

I beg your pardon. Legislation was passed here to enable the Minister for Lands to take over these State lands from the Department of Defence.

The Deputy is discussing the rents exacted, as he alleges, by the Department of Defence.

I am arguing as to why these lands have not been taken over by the Land Commission and dealt with under the Act introduced here to enable an ordinary fair purchase rent to be fixed on these holdings. I have been in this House during the passing of at least 15 different Land Acts. Surely it is high time we got rid of this type of landlordism.

Some four years ago, I raised the position of the estate of P. & J. Ryan at Ballycotton. The Land Commission have been dabbling with that for the last four years. The owner raised no objection whatsoever to handing over the land. There are a number of congested holdings in the vicinity. This estate comprises some 220 to 240 acres. It is time some finality was reached in relation to the division of these lands. The tenants on the small-holdings surrounding it were unable to grow wheat in the past two years because the land was put so often under wheat there was danger of eel worm and, under the new regulations introduced by the Sugar Company, these people are prevented from growing beet. The Ryan Estate would have come in very handy for them in the past two years.

When the Land Commission come into an area to let land for conacre, or otherwise, I wish they would have some consideration for the people around that land. We had a letting recently where the Land Commission came in and gave all the land for grazing to one man. The unfortunate people who would have tilled were ignored.

I come now to the position of the Land Commission in relation to coast erosion. That matter was dealt with when the proposed Bill was being discussed here. Now the Land Commission have their responsibilities. If they take over land, without protecting the tenant or themselves, they are still primarily responsible. In a number of cases in my constituency, the Land Commission have ignored the question as to who should be responsible for the upkeep of embankments. They knew very well that the tenant could not afford such upkeep. No money was held back from the landlord, or very little, for the purpose of keeping embankments in order. The county council is now in the position that it is losing rates because land is becoming derelict. A whole stretch from Ballymacoda right into Ballycotton, with a poor law valuation of between 30/– and 35/– per acre, is rapidly becoming derelict.

Surely the Land Commission have a responsibility to protect their own property and ensure that land will be maintained in a condition in which it can bear the annuities placed upon it. By a very slick manoeuvre, an attempt was made to cast that responsibility on to the local authority under the proposed Coast Erosion Bill. It is a good job the last Government did not get away with that, but the danger is there nevertheless. The responsibility is the responsibility of the Land Commission but, unfortunately, it is the ratepayers of the county who have to bear the burden when land is left in such condition that it becomes derelict. The tenant owners can then plead that, because the land is derelict, they should be relieved of rates.

A few years ago we had that position in one of the most fertile parts of my constituency, Little Island, where we had to relieve the rates for three years because the Land Commission refused to spend £200 where afterwards £800 had to be spent when the sea had made sufficient breach. The whole thing was left there for three years while the Land Commission were dodging around the question. This condition of affairs obtains from Ballymacoda to Ballycotton. The whole stretch of seaboard there will be lost unless the Land Commission realise their responsibilities and come to the assistance of the tenant holders. I want that matter attended to.

I should like the Minister to let us know what is the position as regards the Kilworth estate and as regards the one further on to which I have alluded, where the tenants applied to the Land Commission for tenant purchase and were turned down by the Land Commission. If further legislation is required in that respect, I suggest that the Minister should introduce it and not put us to the trouble of bringing in Private Members' Bills.

I welcome some of the statements made by the Minister. I would ask him to bear with me and, if I ask a question or challenge anything, not to reply that the Government that I supported were in power for so many years and did not do anything about it. I do not think the Minister will answer me in that way, but I have been so answered in this House occasionally and I have heard Ministers that I supported answering questions in that way. I do not think that is an answer to any question.

The position I find is that the Land Commission are the biggest land owners in Ireland and have a lot of land on their hands for a long number of years and do not seem to be doing anything about it. I would prefer to see them going in bravely and quickly. I would ask the Minister to see to it and I am sure he will. Even if they made a few mistakes, it would be no harm. It would be better to divide the land than to let it year after year.

There is a matter on which I should like the Minister to make a ruling. Fine land that was in the hands of the Land Commission was let for conacre year after year. Crop after crop of wheat was taken out of it and now it is just a mass of praiseach and every other weed that ever came into a farm. The Minister should make a definite ruling that where land is let for conacre, there should be a limit to the length of time it will be so let.

I do not agree with my colleague, Deputy Lindsay, when he spoke of the small farmer or the small man from the west of Ireland coming down to the good lands of Tipperary. The Deputy can include Waterford, as far as I am concerned. I do not want anybody coming from the west of Ireland and taking Waterford land, because we have poor men in Waterford, although they may not be as good at making the poor mouth as the men in the west of Ireland are. I have seen some of these "poor men" coming from the west of Ireland with rows of red "twenties" and blue "tens" in their pockets, and good luck to them, but let us call them prosperous farmers. Let us not call them small poor farmers.

There is no hope of the landless men getting any land that is divided. If a man has a small plot and is struggling along on it, he has the best chance of getting some acres of land that might be divided near him. That is all right, but the fact that a man is living on a small holding and that he is poor may not qualify him to be as good a farmer as are some of the landless men. Some of these landless men are farmers' sons; some of them are labourers' sons. They took a bit of land and tilled it or gazed it, did a little bit of cattle-jobbing and a little bit of dairy farming. They have proved beyond doubt that they are worthy of land.

I mentioned before in this House, and Deputies appeared to think that I mentioned it lightly—I did not; I mentioned it very seriously—that in this country there are landless women. I know of labourers' wives who were left with big families and who, by their initiative and hard work and by the leadership that a good woman can give to her sons and daughters, were able to put themselves into a reasonably good position by taking pieces of land here and there and farming them well. They do not seem to qualify for land and I would draw the attention of the Minister and the Land Commission to them.

I have known cases where it has been ten years before the people from whom land was acquired by the Land Commission were paid for it and then it would be land bonds that they would get for it. Deputies should not think that all the land that is taken over is taken from millionaires or is taken over in 3,000 and 5,000 acre sections. Very often, outfarms are taken from people who are not rich men. I have known five or six cases where seven or eight years elapsed before anything happened and then the people concerned got land bonds. They were poor men and sometimes they would have to lose 20 per cent., if they cashed their land bonds.

I will quote a case to the Minister which I think is worth investigating, and I should like to know the Minister's view on it. A constituent of mine had a small farm taken over by the Land Commission. The Land Commission have had it for about ten years. About four years ago, he got some land bonds in return. Last year, he went to an auction. The Land Commission had put up the place, as they had done every year, for grazing. He was the successful contender. He asked the auctioneer if he would take land bonds to the amount that he had agreed to pay the Land Commission for the grazing. The auctioneer, in consultation with the officials of the Land Commission, said "No." In my opinion, that looked like the Land Commission running out on their own bonds.

That is a case of being "paid in his own coin."

I would suggest to the Minister that when the Land Commission are buying land off people or have acquired it and have fixed a price, they should pay in cash or give enough land bonds to equal that cash price. It is rather sharp practice otherwise. I think Deputies will agree with me that when the Land Commission arranges to pay £5,000 for a place and when the person does not get the cash but gets only £5,000 in land bonds, when he goes to cash them he will have to take about £4,000 for them. I am positive the Minister would not like to see injustice done, and I consider that injustice. If any farmer or dealer went into a fair and bought stock of any description at a price, he could not dock the man he bought the stock from a fourth or a fifth of the price. It would not be right; he would not get away with it, and I do not see why the Land Commission should get away with it.

I heard attacks being made this evening on the Minister. I will attack Fianna Fáil bitterly, I am sure, in this session inside and outside this House, and I am sure Fianna Fáil members will attack me.

For the next five years.

Do not be too sure of yourself. I shall not and have not made personal attacks on Ministers or on any members of the Fianna Fáil Party. I would say particularly to the Minister that this question is the most important one facing him at the present time. He has the land, he is in charge of a Department which holds the largest amount of land in Ireland. I ask him to set the machinery of the Department going, so as to divide that land as quickly as possible, county by county, or section by section. The sooner that is done the better and if the Minister does it he will have made a success of his Department and the best of luck to him.

The debate on this Estimate has been, on the whole, very helpful. I must bear with the House in regard to one matter. I have been so short a time occupying this position that it is extremely difficult for me to reply to all the questions which have been asked, particularly detailed questions.

Deputy Lynch was the last speaker and he made some references to the large amounts of land held by the Land Commission and not yet allocated. I indicated in my Estimate speech that we propose to deal with that question as far as we can this year. I agree with the Deputy that the amount of land seems to have accumulated. Some of it consists of remnants of old estates and odd corners of land which have not been allocated. In other cases there have been various delays, which have been occasioned by the Land Commission waiting for other land to be acquired which would help to make a proper holding or a series of holdings for rearrangement for the relief of congestion. Some of the land is of rather poor quality but I admit the problem exists and that we will have to deal with it. We are going to make an effort this year to catch up on some of the 40,000 acres which we hold at the moment and a great deal of which was, of course, recently acquired, while some of it has been acquired for some time. All I can say is that we will do our very best in regard to that.

Deputy Lynch and also other Deputies referred to delays in the time taken to acquire estates. I took occasion to examine a good many cases myself. I found that, in a very considerable number, it was due either to difficulties in regard to title which became apparent when the examination commenced, or else delays on the part of the owner in dealing with the arrangements for the final purchase of the land and all the legal matters connected therewith. In some cases I found that as much as a year and a half elapsed before the owner performed his part of the legal process. There, again, we will do our best to speed up the work and see what we can get done.

Now, in regard to some of the general questions, I was quoted by two Deputies in regard to a speech I made on April 1st at Granard.

A suitable day.

Deputies suggested that there was something about All Fools' Day which made the character of my speech seem significant. All I would say is that I and all the Ministers on this side of the House feel—and I hope all Deputies who will become Ministers in any Government will feel—that the position we face at the present time is sufficiently serious, whatever the previous cause or causes may have been, and that we ought to question the operation of every Department of which we have charge, to see if we are getting value for the money and whether the results are helping us to do that most essential thing, to expand our trade abroad.

Whatever differences we have here about national economic policy, it is perfectly obvious that towards the end of the last three years most of the Parties agreed at least on the tremendous difficulties we face and at least on the kind of general solution we must adopt. The methods to be adopted and the leadership by one Minister or by one Government may be a matter of very great disagreement amongst us all, but as to the vital necessity for expanding trade, no one doubts that now in this House.

We all thank God that the British market has not gone.

When I spoke about the value of the Land Commission's work, I was simply saying that we must examine it to see whether this money is being spent in such a way that it will bring about an expansion of trade in as short a time as possible and, if it is not, let us examine it to see what we can do about it, whether we have to change the method of allocating land, whether we have to change the principles we adopt. That is all I said. It would be quite impossible for me, in reply to Deputy Lindsay, to indicate in any detail what I propose to recommend to the Government—if anything—in regard to Land Commission activities, beyond some of the basic matters which are not related to policy but simply to administration, namely, trying to speed up the division of the land which has been held for some time after being acquired and trying to get rid of some land which, as I have said, should be disposed of as soon as possible. To those who ask what we propose doing, I can only say that at this juncture we do not know because I have not had sufficient experience of those matters so far and the problem will have to be examined.

Deputy Lindsay also asked about genuine representations from Deputies in regard to local circumstances and so forth in connection with rearrangements. Deputies should know that they have an absolute right at all times to address parliamentary questions in the House to the Minister for Lands. In my opening statement I wanted only to make the position clear to them, to help them by pointing out that a Deputy cannot aid in regard to a particular allocation of land to a particular individual. In fact I cannot do anything other than point out alleged abuses to the Land Commission. Deputies can give the Land Commission some ideas about local conditions but neither I nor Deputies can say that a particular individual should get land.

Naturally, Deputies will have information that will help the Land Commission, information that inspectors might not get in the course of their inspections when they are bound to visit every person within a mile of a farm who might conceivably be considered in subdivision, but if Deputies think they possess knowledge to which the Commission's attention should be drawn their representations will always be welcome. Suggestions have been made from time to time that Deputies have very considerable power in securing land for people. That is not so, and I should like at this stage to deny the suggestion made by Deputy McQuillan that up to 1948 it was possible for a member of a Fianna Fáil club, who had paid a shilling, to get land from the Land Commission. Such a suggestion is a gross insult not only to the Minister for Lands of the day but to the Land Commission itself and to the very fine body of 138 Land Commission inspectors against whom not a single sustainable charge of serious corruption has been made for as long as I can remember.

Of course some inspectors will make mistakes occasionally as will all men, but it is a credit not only to the Land Commission, but to the Minister for Lands of the day and to this House, indirectly, that not a serious charge of corruption, made possibly because of political differences, has been sustained. It is a credit indirectly to this House who decided to make the commission and inspectors independent——

On a point of order, is the Minister in order in suggesting that I charged the Land Commission officials with corruption? I charged the political Parties.

The Deputy may not speak to an alleged point of order. The Minister concluding.

The Minister would hide behind such a point.

The Minister never hid behind anything.

I am not interested in what he hid behind 50 years ago.

The Minister concluding.

I do not like misrepresentations in the House. This is your last round up anyway.

There have also been suggestions made by a certain number of Deputies that I am prejudiced in favour of the large farm. The only thing I am interested in is the high output farm, whether that be a three-acre farm or a 1,000-acre farm. I look for higher output per acre, for more development on the land, for better profits for the people concerned. In this House we all know beyond doubt that the output per acre and the profits per acre have been consistently greater on small and medium farms than on the bigger sized farms. The same is true of other countries such as Denmark which we frequently cite as an example of successful farming. In such countries, when we examine the yield per acre, we find the yield descends regularly as the acreage ascends. In parts of England, I understand, the output remains the same for different sized farms. The same does not hold good here, in Denmark or in certain other countries.

As far as the objectives of the Land Commission are concerned, we must continue to concentrate on the medium-sized farm and in the future we must try and consider whether we cannot get better results from our division policy. I never suggested I stood for large farms as such. Of course there are some magnificently run large farms, but there is nothing to stop the Land Commission, as Deputy McQuillan suggested, examining the 250 to the 300 acre farms no matter who owns them, whether they be people of purely Irish blood or of foreign blood.

One of the significant changes that have taken place since the war, and indeed before it, has been the noticeable increase in output on a certain type of larger farm run on modern methods with adequate capital and machinery. As a result, the pool of land available to the Land Commission has diminished. The average size of farm is of the 90-acre variety, although we are still taking over larger sized farms where the user is bad and where insufficient labour is employed. I hope that disposes of the case of large farms. Every Deputy in the House believes in higher output per acre. In that connection we must, as we have always done, favour the small and medium sized farm and it is those we will help by any changes we propose to make.

Having disposed of that point, I shall now say something about user, about the suggestion that we might make some examination of the user of the land distributed by the Land Commission in connection with enlargements As the House should know, in regard to migrants who come long distances and for whom farms have been made up and houses built, there never has been any special examination of the user in those cases because the transfer is one which has been definitely effected and there is very little we can do about it.

In connection with enlargements, the person who secures a parcel of land signs an agreement which includes the liberty of the Land Commission to inquire in the ordinary way whether he is properly using that land. The inspection takes place before the vesting of the land, after which the Land Commission has no more jurisdiction over the holder. Before the land is vested there are two sections in the agreement which make it clear that there can be inspection. There is no suggestion of a totalitarian regime but of the inspector ensuring that the new tenant will make something of this holding. There is nothing in the way of a minute inquiry as has been suggested; the Land Commission wants to ensure only that the tenants will live up to their responsibilities before the period of vesting. This does not mean a star chamber inquiry of any kind but simply an assurance that the land is used properly.

And that the person occupies it.

Yes. In actual fact the number of enlargements which have been badly used is not very great when you think of the difficulties of acquisition. For example, in a period of six years we find that 12.3 per cent. of enlargements were unsatisfactory. Nowadays we are not in a position financially to take a cynical view.

What is the period of years?

1944 to 1951.

The Minister is not referring to the idiocy of post-1944?

No; before the Land Act of 1933. As in the case of most new legislation passed and when Governments have to do new things, mistakes are bound to be made, but I think the vast majority of the people who were given land at that time proved satisfactory. So much for the Gestapo-like examination to be made of all land. I was asked about new condition for enlargements. We might consider that desirable particularly at the present time.

Next I come to deal with the question of the Land Commission's general responsibilities. I would like to repeat to Deputies that neither this Government nor any Government that is likely to succeed this Government can possibly afford more than the amount now being devoted to solve the problem of land division. It is significant that the amount available has not varied in the last ten years. It is very unlikely, with the present shortage of capital, that the amount can very greatly exceed the amount available this year. This does mean that when Deputies beg and beg for land to be divided and say what a desperate thing it is that there is delay in acquiring land that is going to be divided and want to reduce the administrative costs and the inconvenience of the delay, that there is an absolute limitation to the amount of land that can be divided. It has proceeded steadily in the last ten years to something in the neighbourhood of 1,300 to 1,900 new holdings a year and it is unlikely to exceed that.

We cannot possibly afford the enormous cost of dividing all the land into economic holdings. Deputy Dillon was perfectly right when he said there was not enough land to go round. There are some 165,000 holdings at the present time between one and 30 acres, and we enlarged or created in one way or another 1,400 holdings last year. It means that there are only, as I said in my Estimate speech, about 14 farmers given land out of every 1,000 each year by the Land Commission. Let us look at it in that light and not try to make a tremendous thing out of it as though it was going to solve the country's problems. If we were to add the landless people to the list of uneconomic holders the situation would probably become absolutely ridiculous. There would be nearly 250,000 people to be satisfied if we were to include landless men under the present system and we would have to change the qualifications for getting land.

Particularly if you adopted Deputy Cunningham's proposal of giving them 50 acres apiece.

You are twisting again.

I think the Deputy misunderstood Deputy Cunningham. The present standard of enlargement is to make the farm 33 acres in all, but Deputy Cunningham was expressing the hope that we might make it 50, which would reduce the number of holdings available to be divided. There has been a great deal of intelligent discussion on what should be an economic holding. Some people believe it should be 40 acres, some say 25 and others 33. The debate has been going on in the House for many years. At the moment we have settled on 33 acres as a total and there might be some slight variation in that according to local circumstances. I want to stress that there is only a limited amount of money available for this work. The Land Commission are doing the best they can, and constant and tremendous pressure exercised in one way or another is not likely to achieve the results expected because of the limitation on the finance available.

May I ask the Minister to give an assurance that the Land Commission will not acquire any more land for the future until such time as what they have on hands is distributed?

The Deputy has asked a most delicate question of administrative policy. However, I do not think I am betraying any secret of the Land Commission when I say that in relation to inspecting land for acquisition and acquiring land they certainly have a fear that if they spend a great deal of their time dividing land which they believe to be more difficult to divide than land that may come in at a later period they will therefore reduce their activities in regard to acquiring new land. That perhaps is one of the very human reasons why the amount of land which is not being divided, which has remained in the ownership of the Land Commission and is let, tends to be rather large. The Deputy has asked me a question which I have not enough experience to answer. What I ask the Land Commission and the Department to do is to see whether they can get rid of these 40,000 acres and then continue to acquire land.

I quite agree with the Minister that before they acquire more land they should dispose of what they have.

The Deputy may not make a speech by interruptions.

I did not wish to interrupt but to make the point about the disposal of lands in the possession of the Land Commission.

Deputy Flanagan referred to the question of the Land Bonds. I can only say in that regard that I happen to assume this responsibility at the moment when the Minister for Finance has created a new series of Land Bonds whose rate of interest has enabled them to maintain their parity fairly well, but I think the Minister for Finance will agree with me that should as rapid a fall occur again as did occur in the last series of Land Bonds—when they actually went down from par to 76—I think that the people who bought those Land Bonds and who happened to want to dispose of them in the open market, at the period when they reached 76 or between 76 and 80, were in a most unfortunate position. We will have to take a serious view of such trends, but we must be careful about making a precedent for inadequate compensation. However, I hope the last Minister for Finance has struck a happy note with his recent series of Land Bonds and that we shall not have any trouble for the present.

The likelihood is that they may go over par.

I wonder if the protests will be as great then.

Deputy Flanagan also referred to the question of tenants being able to redeem their annuities. I am informed that if they wish they can in the ordinary way redeem their annuities. Deputy Corry asked a number of questions about various estates that were in the process of acquisition from the Department of Defence. I have not got the particulars with me to-night but I will do my best to give Deputy Corry any information he desires. All I can say in regard to some of these properties is that negotiations have been proceeding for the acquisition of these State lands and we will do our best to see that other negotiations take place and continue to a successful conclusion as long as there are no insuperable difficulties. I can hardly say more about that at this stage.

Deputy Loughman and other Deputies referred to the question of migration. Of course, Deputies on both sides of the House have always been divided in their opinions as to the desirability of migration from the West to the Midland counties and to counties where very large-sized estates become available. I do not think that they have much reason to complain. I understand that, on average, when an estate is acquired about 70 per cent. of the land goes to uneconomic landholders in the area and about 30 per cent. to migrants who come from western counties. I think it is reasonably fair to rearrange rundales in the West and at the same time enlarge unconomic landholdings close to the farm which is being divided, and to give people a chance of acquiring some land. It would be very difficult for us to continue relieving congestion in Mayo, unless there was some migration. The amount of land that can be acquired and the rearrangements that can take place can hardly take place unless some tenants are taken out and given land elsewhere.

The Land Commission have been working on this for many years. It is impossible to deal with very many such holdings in the year. There are something like 15 to 20 migrants in a year sometimes and we are able to make several hundred rearrangements as a result. The work is going on, and, as Deputy Blowick said, if we consider a particular group of congested holdings, then the number left to be satisfied is not tremendous. That can be done in the course of the next few years. As I have indicated, it would be quite impossible to solve the whole problem of uneconomic holdings in the country as there is not the amount of land to go round. The way the larger estates are being used makes acquisition difficult. All the Land Commission can do is to make use of the funds available to them in the best possible way.

In conclusion, I should like to say that any steps which we may take to change the present methods by which land is being divided will have full regard to all the circumstances. There is no point in making any change unless it will produce useful and far-reaching results. I should like to emphasise that nothing I have said in my Estimate speech has not been said already by a very large number of people—farmers throughout the country, including practical farmers, large farmers and small farmers, members of organisations of various types throughout the country and by my predecessor himself, in the course of his examination of the work of the Land Commission. He made it quite clear in the records which he left that he himself was interested in some changes which might lead to the provision of land for younger people with a greater amount of scientific knowledge about farming and to try to give those people a certain stake in the country. That was what my predecessor was considering. He had not made up his mind about it, but Deputies who read my speech in full will realise that we are trying to think on lines of that kind. At the same time, we have in mind the need for dealing with the problem of extreme congestion in certain western counties.

May I ask the Minister a question? Would he very seriously consider, before he proceeds to formulate Land Commission policy for the purpose of serving an overriding agricultural policy, how urgent and important it is that he should discuss that matter with his colleague in the Department of Agriculture, who will, I understand, be ex-Deputy Moylan, so that a common policy can be worked out which can have the approval of the Minister for Agriculture before the Land Commission adopts a policy calculated to affect the agricultural community?

In reply to the Deputy, I must admit that I forgot to deal with that portion of his speech. The Deputy referred to production in 1947 which was one of the worst weather years in our history. I will not go into that matter because the Deputy has been answered fully recently, but, in regard to what he said about myself and the Minister for Agriculture, my feeling is that, although there has been quite a good deal of co-ordination between the Land Commission and the Department of Agriculture, particularly when enlargements are effected, I think it is true to say that the Ministers for Agriculture and Lands have shown a curious shyness to each other on both sides of the House. I think we might have a greater co-ordination. I would say that there will be the fullest consultation between myself and the Minister for Agriculture in regard to any changes which we wish to effect, particularly where the Department of Agriculture would be affected.

Thank you.

Vote put and agreed to.
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