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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 1957

Vol. 161 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Forestry.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £1,329,400 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1958, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (No. 13 of 1946 and No. 6 of 1956) including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land.

I should state that I have no responsibility for the framing of the Estimate, nor have I had any time in which to examine in detail the operation of the Department.

The net total of the Forestry Estimate for 1957-58 at £1,941,000 shows an increase of £118,200. The extent of this increase is limited by the allowance of an additional £70,000 for Appropriations-in-Aid and the gross estimate at £2,254,205 is £188,201 higher than last year. Were there not a decrease of approximately £125,000 in the provision for sub-head C (3)—Timber Conversion—in consequence of a change in the method of marketing thinning produce, the increase in the gross estimate would have been over £300,000. The principal increase is in the provision for sub-head C (2)—Forest Development and Maintenance —for which an additional £288,200 is needed.

Taking the sub-heads individually, there is an increase of £9,215 in sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—due to normal variation in the incidence of cost. The inspectorate staff is being increased but the increase has not affected the sub-head provision as allowance therefor had already been made in 1956-57. The increase in inspectorate staff includes a staff nucleus for the commencement of forestry research work. Up to the present, the Forestry Service has had to rely, for research data, almost entirely upon the work carried out in other countries. In many aspects of forestry, there is a sufficient identity of conditions between this country and Great Britain to justify reliance on the research findings of the British Forestry Commission and the Common-wealth Forestry Bureau. There is, however, an urgent need for greater progress with practical field research by way, for example, of the careful control and documentation of experimental plots designed to ascertain the reactions of different species to specific treatments and management techniques over a representative range of soil and climatic conditions. It is intended that the initial research programme will be mainly directed towards such practical controlled experimentation, including tests specifically directed towards the determination of practical limits and optimum techniques for the afforestation of marginal land-types. The new staff also includes provision for a permanent system of assessment of growing stock. Such assessment based on a periodic scientific survey of the entire range of plantations, is essential to proper prognosis of future timber availabilities and will, at the same time, afford much valuable information in regard to the timber yields to be expected from different species under Irish conditions and, in regard to the thinning techniques, most likely to facilitate maximum production and high quality.

In sub-head B—Travelling Expenses —an additional £10,000 is provided to cover costs arising from enlargement of the inspectorate staff and to meet increasing incidence of charge in consequence of expansion of forestry operations. Sub-head E (1)—Forestry Education—is enlarged by £2,546 to meet the full annual cost of management of the new Shelton Abbey Forestry School; the 1956-57 Estimate contained provision for only portion of a year. Sub-head E (2)—Exhibits at Shows—is reduced by the disappearance of a particular non-recurring provision included in 1956-57. Sub-head G—Incidental Expenses—is increased by £1,300 in consequence of the general growth in work.

For sub-head C (1)—The Grant-in-Aid of Acquisition of Land—the provision is repeated at the 1956-57 level of £110,000. At the 1st April, 1956, the balance available in the Fund was £78,757, which, with the 1956-57 grant, made a total of £188,757 available. Net expenditure for the year was approximately £120,000 leaving a balance at the 31st March, 1957, of almost £70,000. The total sum which will be available for the current year is, therefore, approximately £180,000.

The total area acquired in 1956-57 was 18,725 acres, of which approximately 16,500 acres was productive. The total productive area acquired is not the highest figure so far attained in a single year—larger productive areas were acquired in 1952-53 and in 1953-54. An adequate intake of plantable land continues to be the most essential pre-requisite to enlargement of the annual planting programme, and an intake of 16,500 acres of productive land in a year in which 17,500 acres were planted out of a comparatively small plantable reserve does not demonstrate the feasibility of a steady and rapid increase in the planting rate. Since the area planted in each year includes a proportion of land previously classified as unproductive but now considered capable of afforestation in consequence of new techniques and increasing experience and includes also some cleared woodland, there has not been any significant decrease in the plantable reserve from the level of 49,000 acres at which it stood a year ago despite the excess of the year's planting over the intake of productive land. A reserve of that level is not, however, comfortable enough in relation to the contemplated future rate of planting and a continuing increase in the planting rate could be viewed with greater equanimity if the plantable reserve were showing a steady and proportionate enlargement. The plantable reserve has, in fact, increased by only 4,000 acres since 1954 when the annual planting rate was 12,500 acres.

There appears, however, to be some cause for optimism in current figures relating to lands in course of acquisition or under consideration. As at the 1st April, 1957, the legal formalities had been cleared and possession was pending in the case of 42 properties totalling 2,852 acres. Bargains had been struck and title was under investigation in the case of 504 properties totalling 39,482 acres and negotiations on price were in hands in relation to 2,055 properties totalling 165,255 acres. The aggregate of these figures—a total of 207,589 acres—compares very favourably with the corresponding figure 12 months ago, 145,913 acres. It is anticipated that the total area acquired in the current year will approximate 25,000 acres.

Whether it will be possible to maintain the acquisition rate at that level in future years is, of course, more open to question. Apart from the properties of which I have already cited particulars, 1,230 more recent offers of lands totalling 110,000 acres were under preliminary investigation at the 1st April, 1957. Subject to some reservations to which I shall refer later in regard to continuance on the present scale of the acquisition and planting of some of the more dubious site-types which have been the subject of extensive planting experiments, it appears likely that the intake of plantable land can be maintained by continuance of the really energetic efforts which the Department has been devoting to this aspect of its work.

We are so conscious of the problem which land acquisition for State forestry presents that we are apt to under-value the really striking progress which is being made. In Great Britain, with a total area three times that of this country and a land use and tenure pattern which presents much more scope for acquisition of land for forestry purposes, the Forestry Commission have in successive annual reports in recent years had to express their disquiet at their inability to acquire enough land to maintain progress towards an enlarged planting target and have now actually been forced to cut down their planting rate. The most recent Forestry Commission report—for the year ended September, 1955—gives the total of plantable land acquired in that year as only 61,000 acres. Over 4,000 acres of this were already under timber and 27,000 acres were cleared or devastated woodland reducing the potential "new forest" area to under 30,000 acres. By comparison, we are doing very well.

Hear, hear!

Comparison of our progress in actual planting with progress in Great Britain is also encouraging. My predecessor, speaking in the House on the 23rd November, 1955—Volume 153, column 955—stressed this when he pointed out that even to-day Ireland has one-third more forest per head of population than Britain. Great Britain's declared post-war forest policy aimed at an ultimate forest cover equating 98 acres per 1,000 of present population. The British saw no hope of attaining in the first post-war decade the level of planting which would give that result and their plans provided for a limited planting rate in that period—the leeway to be made up in subsequent decades. Now, ten years after the war, the total planting rate is only 80 per cent. of the limited intermediate aim and there appears to be little early prospect of the enlarged planting which was to characterise the second decade. In the past two years the Forestry Commission has had to cut its planting programme back. Compare this with our own present progress rate. This year's planting rate would be equivalent to a forest cover of 340 acres per 1,000 of present population.

In terms of afforestation which the British feel must remain the direct responsibility of the State, the present rate of progress in Britain is indicated by the planting of 41,000 acres in the year ended September, 1955. It is of interest that 10,000 acres of this was represented by plantings at seven forests, ranging from 1,100 to over 2,000 acres per forest; there is no part of Ireland where one could hope to get a forest area large enough to support planting programmes of that size and, when the availability of such areas in Britain is taken into account, an annual planting here totalling 20,000 acres is by comparison a notable achievement.

Hear, hear!

The Dáil was informed last year that 17,500 acres would be planted in that year, that it was intended to provide for a planting programme of 20,000 acres in 1957-58 and for two further increases of 2,500 acres each in the next two years. Sub-head C (2) of the Estimate now before the House was prepared on the basis of that programme but I should mention that the labour provisions throughout this sub-head and in Part 1 of sub-head C (3), are based on the average wage level operative when the Estimate was prepared in December, 1956. It has been standard practice in recent years to allow in Forestry Estimate preparation for the anticipated incidence of wage increases occurring during the year. No such allowance was deemed necessary this year because of the appeal which the former Minister for Finance had made for a general restraint in the matter of wage claims. So far there has been little increase in the December, 1956 forestry wage-level. Provided that position is maintained for the rest of the year all will be well, but, if there should be a significant wage rise and additional moneys cannot be found to meet it, we may be forced to reconsider the planting programme. The alternative of neglecting existing plantations would be most unwise.

Part 1 of sub-head C (2)—the provision for State Forest Nurseries—has had to be increased by £35,000 to enable nursery stocks to be built up to the level necessary to maintain a planting programme of 22,500 acres in 1958-59 and 25,000 acres in 1959-60. The increase is mainly in the labour head and would be sharper were it not for economies secured by extension of the use of new methods of weed control introduced last year and found successful.

Under Part 2 of the sub-head—the Provision for Capital Expenditure—a sum of £644,550 is sought. This sum comprises, roughly, £237,000 for preparation and drainage of ground preparatory to planting; £306,000 for road construction; £20,500 for buildings, and £81,000 for purchase, repair and running of machinery used for various forest operations.

The figure of £237,000 which I have just mentioned for preparation and drainage of ground plus the provision of £253,050 under Part 3 of the sub-head—Constructional Expenditure—represent the actual immediate cost of the planting programme of 20,000 acres for 1957-58, apart from costs relating to machine aids, on the drainage and moulding of land for planting. The planning of a 20,000 acre planting programme for a year at the commencement of which the available plantable land was under 50,000 acres is not easy. A considerable portion of the reserve is comprised in large blocks at a comparatively small number of centres at which the existing plantations are all of recent date. An example of this is Meenirroy Forest with a productive area of 2,418 acres. Planting commenced in 1951-52. A total of 1,430 acres has already been planted, the average annual planting programme being 238 acres. If the 988 acres still remaining to be planted is handled at too fast a rate, a really difficult problem of management will be presented in another 15 years when the plantations reach the thinning stage.

To avoid an excessive planting rate at such forests as Meenirroy, we will have to rely on some of the areas actually acquired in the current year to make up about 1,000 acres of the total planting programme for this year. It seems to me that the Forestry Division has been pressed rather too hard in this matter of speeding up the planting rate. With this difficulty of the paucity of plantable reserves and during a period of simultaneous rapid expansion in management work in the existing plantations, it is indeed a matter for congratulation that the forestry service has each year completed in full the successive enlargements of the annual planting demands by one Government after another.

I understand that in no year since the end of World War II, which interrupted the steady progress being made in the immediate pre-war years, has the service failed to achieve the preordained programme of new planting for the year. This year's planting programme will bring the total of State plantations to 247,000 acres, of which 142,500 acres represent the post-war plantings.

The high percentage of our total plantations laid down since the war is in large part attributable to the new mechanical aids to afforestation of peat areas which were developed post-war. My predecessors have informed the Dáil on numerous occasions that some of the additional planting rendered possible by these new techniques was on extremely unpromising areas and that some of this experimental work was far in advance of any similar experimentation in other countries. I have not yet had an opportunity of examining fully this whole question of experimental planting of doubtful sites. I understand that, so far, the young plantations have not suffered any serious checks and that there is an increasing probability that growth will continue unabated. There are still other problems associated with these areas, however, including the particular vulnerability to wind and snow damage of rapid-growing species in wet bog areas, and the whole question of the value and economics of this type of afforestation requires careful and constant examination.

I have mentioned already that under Part 2 of sub-head C (2), allowance is made for an expenditure of £306,000 on the construction of new forest roads. That figure does not include any allowance for the cost of departmental machinery employed on road-work. Road construction requirements have grown rapidly in recent years with the approach of larger areas to the thinning stage. The total mileage of new roads dealt with run from 66 miles in 1953-54 to 90 miles in 1954-55, 118 miles in 1955-56 and 192 miles in 1956-57. The fact that the allowance of £306,000 for work on this head in the current year's Estimate is an increase of 50 per cent. on last year's figure is a sufficient indication that this rapid growth will continue.

Road construction costs have been getting considerable attention in the last year or so and certain economies have been effected, inter alia, more intensive efforts are now being made to secure the supply of road materials on a contract basis as an alternative to direct labour quarrying and handling of the materials. In some districts it has been found that economies can be secured by contract working and, of course, the availability of materials from outside quarries is an aid towards more rapid progress. Further attention is being given to this whole question of road construction costings.

The allowance of £81,000 for purchase, repair and operation of mechanical equipment includes a sum of £37,500 for purchase of new machinery, mainly additional bulldozers and compressors for road work and additional heavy tractors and ploughs for mechanical preparation and drainage of planting ground.

Moving on to Part 4 of sub-head C (2), the provision for maintenance of plantations at £577,300 is £77,000 higher than in 1956-57. The increase is attributable in the main to the growing total area of plantations but is swollen by the need for more intensive extra drainage in some existing plantations to secure a continuance of healthy growth.

Part 1 of sub-head C (3)—Timber Conversion in the State Forests—at £139,020 is considerably reduced from the 1956-57 Estimate level. The bulk of the expenditure in this head is incurred in the thinning of plantations. The fall-off in expenditure is not due to a slowing-down of thinning activity but to a change in standard practice as to the sale of thinnings. Formerly it was the universal practice to carry out the felling of all thinnings by direct labour and to use direct labour also for the extraction of most of the material to roads or ride-lines. A detailed investigation over the past two years of the costs of these operations, and review of the extent to which these costs were recovered from the purchasers of the timber, showed conclusively that the net profit would be greater if the thinnings were sold standing in the wood, leaving it to the purchaser to carry out his own felling and extraction.

Under the former direct labour method, the total handling costs were increased where the purchaser required to sort the material for different end-uses, unprofitable extraction costs were incurred on inferior poles to which the purchaser might attach no value, and cross-cutting to facilitate extraction might not be to the sizes at which the purchaser could secure the fullest utilisation of the material. In some cases, the felled poles were deteriorating in value while being listed and advertised for sale. After a series of test sales of standing thinnings to condition the market to this new method, the Department finally switched over last year to standing sale as the normal method except in certain particular circumstances where the former system would be more practicable or more prudent in relation to the general welfare of the plantations. The new system has worked well and has increased appreciably the net profit to the Department from the sale of thinnings. The new arrangement also affords a valuable opportunity of holding back for further advertisement lots of timber which do not attract as high a price as they should command on first advertisement; under the old system, delay in completing a sale involved loss through deterioration of the timber.

The switch-over has not involved any dislocation in the rhythm of thinning progress. Original expectations were that a total area of 13,000 acres would be thinned in 1956-57. Final figures of actual out-turn are not yet available but provisional figures show an area of over 7,000 acres thinned by direct labour and an area of over 5,500 acres prepared for standing sale. Forecasts for 1957-58 allow for a further increase in total area to be thinned; it is expected that about 8,000 acres will be handled by direct labour, and the Estimate provision is conditioned to that expectation.

It is most encouraging that in 1956-57, despite securing an economy of approximately £130,000 on this part of sub-head C (3), receipts from the sale of timber realised £30,000 more than originally anticipated. This encouraging note is carried into the Estimate for 1957-58 in which allowance is made in sub-head H for a further rise in receipts from the sale of timber although expenditure on sub-head C (3) (1) will be only of about the same extent as in 1956-57.

The heavy annual capital investment liability of forestry and the long period which elapses before produce is obtained makes it imperative that the utmost possible revenue be derived from thinning produce. In any forest economy, thinning produce is assuming a rapidly-growing importance in present day financial conditions—an importance enhanced by the usability of thinning produce in the production of paper, wallboard and other timber derivatives which are fast replacing sawlog timber as the keynote to successful forest exploitation. Ours is a young forest economy and it will be some considerable time yet before our availability of material for pulp and similar processes approaches its maximum level but we are entering the phase in which thinning produce will rapidly increase and we are already at the stage at which we can plan ahead. We have, in our very newness to this field of industrial production, a magnificent opportunity of ensuring that the fullest value is obtained from modern experience elsewhere to develop an industry which will combine all the efficiency which up to date methods will give with the advantages to be derived from a proper blue-printing and co-ordination of its different aspects to give us the maximum possible and most remunerative possible utilisation of our forest produce. This matter has for some time been engaging the active attention of my Department, the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Industrial Development Authority.

We are most anxious that the development of this industry should be on lines which will contribute in significant degree not alone to the forest economy but also to the wider national economy by assisting the solution of balance of payments problems. The extent to which full utilisation of thinning produce can aid in rectifying balance of payments difficulties will be apparent when I say that the thinning produce of the 20,000 acres annual planting level operative this year, fully exploited for paper production, could alter our present position of importing £4,000,000 worth of paper and cardboard more than we export to one of having an export excess of an order exceeding £5,000,000 while our present imports of £6,500,000 worth of mature timber should be replaced by exports in value somewhere between £10,000,000 and £20,000,000—assuming present world price levels and an increase in home consumption.

That is the attractive future gain to the country from a steady planting programme of the order now being undertaken. An annual turnover of 20,000 acres of forest could also provide permanent employment for 28,000 men in the forest apart from the many others who would find employment in the processing and transport of forest produce. But to-day we are still many years away from that situation.

The planting of 20,000 acres of forest this year will, with the expansion of other forest work, bring total employment in the forests for the year up to . an average level of over 6,000 men excluding persons engaged in transport or processing of timber. That itself is attractive as a contribution towards the immediate employment needs of the country. The figure I have just quoted includes a direct labour force for the current year averaging 5,550, the balance being estimated employment of labour in the forests by purchasers of timber. The average number employed on direct labour work in 1956-57 was 5,048 and the figure at the beginning of April was 4,937. This projected rise in forest employment for the year is reflective of the increase in the total of the gross Estimate, 80 per cent. of which is for salaries, wages and payments to carters.

This singularly high proportion of expenditure which is directly devoted to the giving of employment is the only immediate gain from the heavy capital outlay which our afforestation progress entails. It is unfortunate—but in-escapable—that the employment given in new planting gives no immediate return in terms of increased national production. In that respect, it is questionable whether this small country, with limited capital resources, with problems of a considerable excess of imports over exports and a plethora of other economic difficulties can really justify a steadily increasing annual capital investment in afforestation which is already close to the level of £2,000,000 a year.

The capital being devoted to afforestation could, if wisely spent in other spheres of national economic development, produce almost immediate results in productivity gains. Devoted to afforestation its immediate economic effect is purely inflationary. Wealthier countries, countries with more highly developed economies and greater facility for long-term investment, have considered it prudent to steer a course of moderation in this matter of afforestation. Our inherited paucity of woodland has led us, however, to undertake afforestation on a scale which is quite phenomenal in relation to our resources and our needs.

The expenditure which we are incurring to-day in this afforestation drive is undoubtedly a tremendous contribution towards the economic and national wellbeing of future generations. Viewed thus as part of this generation's sacrifice for the ultimate good of the country, capital investment on the present scale in afforestation is eminently commendable but if there is to be a real ultimate gain we must be ever mindful of the interim harmful effects which this type of long-term development without immediate productive gain can have on the economy of the country. That mind fulness must be translated into a sensible determination that economic rather than social objectives must guide our forestry endeavours and that our forestry undertakings must be so managed as to give the maximum contribution towards economic wealth from the minimum practicable consumption of man-power and money. If the main need of this country to-day is an increase in production—or, in other words, more output from man-power and capital employment—in all sectors of our economy, we must especially make high output and cost limitation the basis of our approach to an aspect of our economy from which there is no immediate productive return.

I have referred already to the high labour content of forestry work. In forestry, output and economy desiderata call particularly for strict limitation of man-power consumption to operational activities directly contributing to ultimate timber yields, elimination of inefficient staff, sound costing control and full use of mechanisation techniques. I am glad to say that I have found a ready responsiveness to these needs amongst those officials of the Forestry Division with whom I have already come in contact. I understand that certain steps have already been taken over the past few years to secure improved outputs and cost economy and that an even more intensive drive to step up labour outputs was initiated last year. The full benefit of new costing methods then introduced will not accrue immediately, but already substantial gains have been secured over a number of operational cost heads. I have assured the officials of the Department that their efforts in this sphere will have my full support and I want to take this opportunity of telling the House that I intend, in particular, to seek an adequate standard of work performance as a qualification for retention of any worker in forest employment. Incentive bonus schemes may be a help towards securing good work outputs and their possibilities will be fully explored. In our present economic circumstances, any growth in our trade will place a tremendous demand on capital. This means that the retention of an inefficient worker will be preventing another efficient worker from securing employment elsewhere. I am sure that the whole staff, including the vast majority of the workers, will appreciate the truth of this statement.

It is by this increasing cost-consciousness that I hope we can continue indefinitely the really excellent progress which is being made in the State afforestation programme. It seems to me, however, that it is a great pity that more is not being achieved by way of planting on privately-owned lands. Sub-head D of the Estimate now before the House provides for an increase of almost 50 per cent. in expenditure on grants for such planting. The increased sum to be devoted to this work is, however, a mere £5,000—a tiny fraction of our total forestry expenditure. It is small because there is still no real progress in this matter of private planting.

In the year which has just ended, only 625 acres were planted. That is, I think, quite tragic. Privately-owned woodland rarely achieves the same level of overall productivity as State forests and it is quite clear that in our own country the pattern of land tenure, the predominant importance of agriculture and the density of our rural population preclude reliance on privately-owned woodland as a main source of timber supplies. It is equally true, however, that there are patches of land of varying size all over the country which would give greater productivity if they were put under timber but which cannot readily be absorbed into the State afforestation project. Some of this land is not, at the moment, being put to any use. Some of it is devoted to grazing but could be released from that use without loss of mutton or wool if increased recourse were had to fertilisers to step up the productivity of other grazing lands on the same holdings. An overall national plan aimed at maximum production from all the resources at our disposal demands that these potential woodlands be planted.

I have been giving this matter quite a lot of thought since I became Minister for Lands a month ago. I am determined that there must be a really active campaign to secure more private planting. At the moment, I am still awaiting the results of some of my inquiries into the factors which may be deterring people from under-taking such planting, and I am reluctant to say anything as to the form which the campaign should take until I have completed my study of the matter, but the House may rest assured that one of my main objectives, as the Minister in charge of forestry, will be to secure a big increase in private planting.

It is my hope that, if we can secure the increase in private planting which I consider feasible, we can frame our future forest policy on the basis of a definite reliance on private endeavour for the fulfilment of a specific part of our total planting requirements. Only if we can secure that measure of co-operation from private landowners will I, personally, feel convinced that our people want forestry and are prepared to share the task of fulfilling their desire. To-day's position where we have an insistent clamour for more and more afforestation but no significant attempt at planting by the many hundreds of owners of suitable land is, to my mind, a symptom of our economic malaise. If we are to become a prosperous people, self-reliant in a well-balanced national economy, we must find the cure for that malaise in every form in which it is endemic amongst us.

It is useless to talk of pride of race or pride of country if our people are so frightened of long-term faith in our country that they will not be prepared to share the task of providing not merely against the needs of the moment but rather for greater prosperity in the more distant future. That is the test of faith which afforestation demands. Even approaching it on the family plane rather than the national one, the planting of portion of a farm which has little agricultural value is surely an excellent form of investment to provide a worthwhile dowry for a son or a grandson. In no country in Europe can the landowner be sure of the same natural aid towards rapid growth which, translated into monetary values, means a tremendous growth in value of the woodland in which he has invested his money. Any of the conifers suitable to our soil and climate can confidently be expected to come to maturity in time to form a dowry for a newly-married couple's first grandchild and the development of fast-growing species, and in particular the poplar, holds out the prospect of planting for a dowry for the farmer's newborn child. It is only by the spirit which will prompt such an approach to private planting that we can hope to survive as a nation.

On the last point the Minister made, he goes all out to encourage private planting. In that, he will get every assistance at least from this side of the House and I am sure from every side of the House. He makes the point that the landowners of the country should not be so shy of long-term investment. Nevertheless, in the earlier part of his speech he points to the unwisdom of too heavy a State-planting programme. The same thing applies to the private owner as to the economists on State afforestation, and much more so.

Consider the private owner who is asked to do some planting on his land. He will cut off one acre, two acres, ten acres, or whatever piece of ground he feels like planting, and regard it as a severed portion of his holding for many years. He has to spend a considerable amount of capital on fencing and draining the land and on the plants for the piece of ground. I have often done my best to encourage individual landowners throughout the country to put down some plants. In this present age of expectation of quick results and a quick turnover it is not easy to make the private landowner see the long-term benefit in such a project. Having said all that, I do not want anybody to think I oppose the encouragement of private planting.

I agree with the Minister that it is a pity private landowners do not plant more trees and, as an inducement towards achieving the success of the scheme, I was thinking of even making a grant available to the private owner for an Irish rood or approximately an English half-acre. At present, if a person plants a statute acre he does not qualify for the grant. I was thinking (1) of an increased grant per acre and (2) of reducing the minimum area in respect of which a grant would be payable to a half-acre. If the Minister would give some thought along these lines, I think it would be helpful though I fear the results would come only slowly.

Unfortunately, the most suitable land for planting is in the poorer areas and it is in those areas that the greatest land hunger exists. That is something which will more noticeably be brought to the Minister's attention in the course of his other activities in the Land Commission. It is not easy to ask these people, then, to plant trees. Perhaps I am wrong but I think nothing less than good financial help will induce the farmers to plant trees. I would even go so far as to say that in many cases, where it would be desirable to have private planting carried out, the State will have to give a grant equal to most of the cost involved. When the Minister makes that proposition to certain officials in the Department of one of his colleagues some of them may fall backwards in a faint. However, any steps the Minister takes to encourage private planting will get every assistance from me and, I think, from everybody in this House and throughout the country.

The big farmer may or may not be minded to put some of his land under timber but the small farmers are in the majority in this country and if we want to add a sizeable acreage to the State programme we shall have to turn to the small farmer for co-operation. We must make the piece of land he will cut off small and tasty by way of a larger grant than what has been paid up to this.

I turn now to the remainder of the project. I was not present for all of the Minister's speech but I presume he dealt with the question of the present Government's programme. I take it he will continue the programme outlined here last November or December, namely, 17,500 acres last year, 20,000 acres this year, 22,500 acres next year and 25,000 acres the year after that. On the attainment of the level of 25,000 acres per year, the whole programme is to be examined not alone by the Minister's Department but by several Departments and experts to see the wisdom of continuing the programme at a flat level of 25,000 acres per annum or of increasing or decreasing that level. That was the indication I gave to this House at the time.

I am in thorough agreement with a good deal of what the Minister has said. There was such a scarcity in woodland and timber supplies in this country that some people may have become over-enthusiastic on the question of forestry. Naturally enough, it would seem that the State is really the only body prepared to plant and the whole question must be examined calmly in order to see where we are going.

I believe the flight from the land is due to lack of employment.

Emigration is greatest from those areas where the quality of the land is poorest. It is there that afforestation can develop. The only danger in reference to the poorer areas is that the land might be held to be unplantable or, if not unplantable, that it might be held to be not capable of giving a good commercial return. I want to put it on record that I hold that, even if land does not give first-class commercial timber in the first rotation, it should nevertheless be put under afforestation. Though the timber may have to be clear felled in 25 or 30 years and used as pulp that would condition the soil for a first-class crop ultimately. If the Minister wants to take advantage of the little remaining soil on the hillsides and mountains, we cannot pick and choose. We cannot be too fussy as to whether or not an offer of land will grow first-class commercial timber in the first rotation. We should get those hillsides and mountains planted now, even if the results will not be satisfactory from a purely economic point of view. We have something more to look to than that. We have the clothing of the hillsides, the saving of the remaining soil and the employment of our youth.

The Minister for Lands, more than any other Minister, has one of the best mediums through which to stop emigration from the poorer areas. Forests properly developed will maintain in steady and gainful employment as high a labour content as that employed in the richest agricultural areas. There is no gainsaying that. The labour content in mature forests is very high. There is felling, thinning, the preparation of the land, the preparation of the timber and the preparation of the ground for replanting. There may not be a high labour content on the first planting on virgin ground but, as the years go by, the labour content will grow. If we want to stabilise the population in moderate comfort in the poorer areas, where to-day emigration is greatest, the Minister has it in his power to check the present trend very, very considerably by pushing afforestation. Results may not be instantaneous, but, when we are dead and gone, we shall have left something concrete behind us, steadily growing and improving.

Expenditure on afforestation is not like expenditure in other Government Departments. This is an investment which steadily increases in value. Other Government expenditure is recurring. Drainage must be done over and over again. In forestry, we are making an investment which will increase ten-fold as the years go by.

The Minister will find himself up against the problem of obtaining land. Here every man owns his land, and no man likes to part with even the worst patch of land he has. It has been said that ownership turns the sand of the desert into gold. That applies equally well to the land in Ireland. Ownership gives the tenant a love of even the worst patch of his land. People do not even like to see neighbours' stock trespassing, and parting with land can be more painful than parting with a tooth. There is an eternal regret inherent in it. The acquisition of land, therefore, is a problem.

The Forestry Branch is fully staffed. It has an excellent and a willing staff. They know their work. From my experience of the staff during approximately six years, I can say that our forestry officials are as good as, if not better than, their counterparts in any country in Europe. They take a pride in their work. That makes things very easy.

The Minister in the course of his remarks said:—

"...it is questionable whether this small country, with limited capital resources, with problems of a considerable excess of imports over exports and a plethora of other economic difficulties can really justify a steadily increasing annual capital investment in afforestation which is already close to the level of £2,000,000 a year."

Am I to take it from that that the Minister is getting scared of the size of the programme outlined?

No. The Deputy did not hear the whole of my speech. He will have to read on from there. I was giving a warning that we would have to proceed with forestry work as economically as possible if we were to justify the cost.

The Minister said that "its immediate economic effect is purely inflationary. Wealthier countries, countries with more highly developed economies and greater facility for long-term investment, have considered it prudent to steer a course of moderation in this matter of afforestation." I took that as an indication that the Minister was inclined to cut down on forestry.

The Deputy would want to read on.

I am glad to know that is not so. Any policy of cutting-down would not be good. Our annual expenditure is over £140,000,000 and, in that context, £2,000,000 for afforestation is not a very large sum considering the nature of the investment and the employment content. It would be a mistake to cut down on that. I am glad to know I interpreted the Minister wrongly.

If he has not done so already, I would suggest that the Minister should find out exactly what is the total paid for land, the total cost, including labour, materials and so on, to date for all the plantations owned by the Department of Lands and then calculate roughly their present day value, to say nothing of the potential value in 25, 30, or 40 years' time. That will bring home to him, more than anything else, the soundness of afforestation. It is difficult, I know, for the Government to find money for everything, but there should be no saving on afforestation because it represents a really sound investment for the future. Indeed, the day might come when greedy countries might turn envious eyes upon our forests as they turn envious eyes on those countries in possession of oil and uranium to-day. Timber is one of the most valuable commodities we have.

Donegal to Kerry is the most mountainous region of our country and it is there we have the greatest scope for planting. I would ask the Minister to continue there the progress made. The Minister for Agriculture will not, of course, allow him to plant arable or even semi-arable land, or perhaps even marginal land which is capable of being reclaimed and brought into production. You must turn to the poorer areas.

The Minister can regard the country as a farmer would his holding. Any land that is suitable for agricultural production should be so used, but there is a very sizable area of land on which there is plenty of scope for planting. I admit that it is a difficult job for the Forestry Division to go into that land to break virgin ground and to bring a crop of timber to maturity where timber has not grown for 200 years. It is difficult to do that on land which has been bleached of all the nutritious elements necessary for plant life by lack of use and carelessness throughout the years since it was denuded of timber. That is a very difficult task and one which no other forestry service would undertake.

I know of no other country whose forestry service had to take over a country completely denuded of trees, lacking in the tradition and lore of sylviculture and had to start out from scratch and find out all these things for themselves. Our forestry service had the further handicap that there was no other country to which they could turn for their experience of growing timber successfully under conditions that would be similar to the conditions obtaining here. No other country had had our experience. In every other country forests had been maintained without interruption. It was our misfortune that our country had been denuded of timber. If anything, a hatred rather than a love of trees was imbued in our people because a farmer would not regard favourably anything that would restrict output from his land and a tree necessarily occupies by its shade and roots a certain number of square yards.

The Minister should insist on the planting of mountainous regions. There is the greatest scope for reafforestation in those areas and it is from these areas that the flight from the land is greatest. Forestry affords the greatest hope of gainful employment. Industries are not attracted to these areas. It is my hope that minerals will be discovered in these areas that will create employment and increase the national wealth but so far they have not been discovered. The Minister is the only man who can create industries in these areas. If 40 to 50 men were employed in a mountainous district eight or 12 miles from a town they would be just as usefully employed as they would be if they were employed in a factory in the towns or cities. Indeed, they would be more gainfully employed. I would ask the Minister to continue the good work that is being done in these areas.

I would suggest to the Minister that the sales aspect of forestry was very well reorganised and put on a sound basis about 18 months ago. That has yielded very valuable results, as can be seen from the Book of Estimates. The Appropriations-in-Aid have reached the £250,000 figure, if not more. I am speaking now from memory. That is very sizable and in future it will be essential to pay more and more attention to that aspect. It is splendid to plant trees to-day but it will be too bad if regard is not had to the financial side of the business before the trees come to first thinning and second thinning stage.

In the latter part of his speech the Minister referred to the utilisation of timber products. I make the suggestion in a spirit of helpfulness that the heavy planting that has taken place since approximately 1940 will yield a very heavy output of thinnings and I do not want the situation to arise in which there will be an immense amount of very valuable material coming out of the forests for which no market will be available or no means of utilisation. It is vital that preparations should be made at once, either by private enterprise or by the State, for the consumption and processing of that timber at home. Heretofore most of the thinnings were sold as pit props for Wales and England. The thinnings coming out of the forests in the next three or four years would supply all the pit props required in the world and a neighbouring planet. There are one or two pulping mills in the country. They must be expanded or the State must take a hand in this matter in order to make preparations for the absorption of the immense quantity of thinnings that will be produced within the next seven years. It is not a bit too soon to make plans. It will take four to six years to plan and to build with a view to using that vast quantity of material.

I wish the Minister every success in his term of office. He has one of the best equipped Forestry Departments in Western Europe. That may look as if I am blowing my own trumpet. The staff know their job; they are fully trained. I could never find any fault or any flaw that needed remedying. I always found the staff courteous and capable and they took pride in their work.

The Minister has in afforestation a means of stopping emigration and increasing the national wealth in an extraordinary way. The machine is running and all he has to do is to let it run. The acquisition of land is the only bottleneck unless his colleague the Minister for Finance creates a financial bottleneck.

During the course of this debate the Minister will be probably told that the way to solve the difficulty of acquisition, where it is difficult to get land, is to grab it. My advice to him is not to do any such thing. The Minister as the person in charge of land division and forestry is the custodian of what we hold dearest, that is, ownership of the land. My advice to him is not to heed those who tell him that, if a farmer stands in his way, he should grab the land and turf the farmer out on the roadside and let him take to the work-house or the road. I do not think the Minister is of that mind but I got plenty of advice of that kind and I am sure the Minister will get plenty of it while he is Minister for Lands.

I ask him not to betray the farmers who dearly love their land. If the supply of land is drying up, the Minister has a method—he will probably have to raise the ceiling, raise the price. I often thought the price could bear some little improvement; nevertheless it was possible to take in approximately 20,000 acres last year. I have not got the actual figure the Minister gave us, but in the month of January it looked as if 20,000 acres approximately or something close to it would come in. That is not bad and it shows that the price is not shabby. That is one remedy which the Minister has. If the inflow of land is drying up, he will have to raise the price and that will get over the difficulty.

I wish the Minister every success in the work he is about to undertake and I hope that when this time comes next year, he will have equally as good a picture to paint as he gave the House to-night.

Generally, during the debate on Forestry, attention is focussed on the economic aspect—particularly on the returns which the growth of timber will give; but there are other aspects which should be considered when we come to think of the advantages of a forestry programme. The second point is one mentioned by the ex-Minister, Deputy Blowick, that is, soil erosion. I agree with the suggestion he made that, although we may not get full economic value by way of a return of timber from some of the land which is available, still, in order to conserve the soil, it would be wise to plant that land. After the first crop has been taken off, that land will become first-class plantable land. The second advantage which would derive from an extension of forestry is the prevention of flooding in many of our river basins and streams. If the sides of those river basins were planted, the low-lying land would not be subject to flooding. Plantations on the slopes of the mountains would have a deterring effect on the rate at which the rainfall would find its way into the rivers.

There is also the fact that forestry affects the climate. Therefore, we should not look on the economic return from timber alone when we consider a planting programme. We should also consider that where a first crop is planted and the return of timber from that may not be economic, still it does prepare the way for future plantings.

It is a shame in a country like this, where we have so many odds and ends of waste land privately owned, owned by individual farmers, owned by county councils, owned by urban authorities, owned by various other bodies, that last year we had a private planting of only 625 acres. That figure could be multiplied by ten and it still would be very small. There is something radically wrong when private planting in any year—especially with the emphasis and the publicity which the activities of our Forestry Department has got—has come up to the extent of planting only 600 acres.

There are reasons for such a small effort. I do not think that number one is the one mentioned by Deputy Blowick—I do not think it is purely a matter of cash grant. I think that one of the reasons for lack of enthusiasm or lack of effort by private enterprise, whether it is the farmer with the waste bit of land or the county council or other owners of land, is the lack of knowledge. You meet cases of farmers who have the land to spare and who have the will to plant, but who have not the knowledge. In the first place, they have not the knowledge as to the proper time for planting, or as to the type of tree, as to what species of tree will suit the particular plot they have in mind. They have not the knowledge to do the job.

They have the advantage of the local forester who would give them advice free of charge.

I was coming to that. It is not in every area in the country you have the local forester. There are very large areas of our country where forestry has not got started yet. If the forester—whether he is local or at a distance—could be made available to parish committees or parish councils, to give instruction, a few visits to such a council would give those farmers an idea of when to plant and what varieties to plant. The Minister is aware, of course, that the various county councils have excellent schemes for providing trees at a very low rate to farmers under £10 valuation and at a slightly higher rate to farmers with valuations higher than that, so there is really no excuse. The financial reason is not the main one.

I would suggest that, whether it be done through forestry officers being sent to the various parish councils or some such groups, or whether it be done through local rural science teachers employed by the county councils, the knowledge I have mentioned should be put across to the farmers and others. That would be the first step towards getting a real start made with private planting.

Secondly would come the financial stimulus. It would be necessary, first of all, to reduce the required area of one acre and to increase the cash grants. That would be necessary in order to encourage any development in private planting.

I would put number one the availability of the information. That information could be given usefully to groups of school children and they should be encouraged also to make use of that knowledge. The planting of trees is the most profitable way of using land of that type. There are two methods of using the land—one is sheep, and another is forestry. Of the two, I think forestry is the more profitable.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 25th April, 1957.
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