Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 May 1957

Vol. 161 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 39—Oifig An Aire Oideachais— (D'atógaint).

Mr. Larkin

This is one of the more important Estimates to be considered by the Dáil. I should like to say initially that over many decades much ink has been spilled on the subject of education, and no doubt we could to-day engage ourselves for a considerable time in examining all aspects of the matter. There are just one or two remarks which I should like to address to the Minister. In particular, I should like to refer to the general position in regard to the primary education of our children. According to the Minister, the approximate number of children attending primary schools at the present time is in the neighbourhood of 500,000. In the course of his opening statement, the Minister suggested that the percentage of children between the ages of 15 and 16 years receiving full-time education was 60. He also suggested that the number of children between 16 and 17 years of age receiving full-time education was 40 per cent. of the whole.

One wonders what has happened to the other very large percentage, those children who leave school at 14 years of age and who do not for one reason or another receive any further education. The reason I pose the question about these children is this: the Estimate under the heading "Primary Education" sets out a figure of something like £5,000,000 for that type of education. However, less than 50 per cent. of the children covered by the services provided in that Estimate go on to receive secondary, vocational or higher education. Accordingly, does the money spent represent an investment of real benefit to the children? Does the expenditure of these very substantial amounts annually on primary education serve the purposes for which they are intended?

I do not think it is necessary to adumbrate here at any length the purposes of education. However, there are far too many children who do not appear to have received the education provided for them. I should like to make it quite plain that I join with the Minister in the tribute he paid to the national teachers. We are all aware of the devotion shown by these teachers to the children placed in their charge. I do not know what the experience is in rural areas—maybe there is closer contact there between the teachers and their charges than in the city.

I think it is true to say there are many children in the City of Dublin to-day who leave the primary schools at the age of 14 years, to all intents and purposes, illiterate. I would ask the Minister to look into the problem of education not only from the point of view of the children who go on from the primary schools to secondary schools, technical schools and universities, but also of the children who do not have these opportunities and are compelled, possibly because of economic circumstances, to enter into employment directly they leave the primary schools. The Minister might satisfy himself whether the training given to those children in the primary schools is of real value to them in making their way in life afterwards.

I note in the Estimate for Secondary Education that the number of those attending the secondary schools in the past 30 years has doubled, I think. It is indeed gratifying to see that there is an increase; but can we be satisfied with the rate of progress in these years, in providing facilities for secondary education? Deputies from various parts of the country—and in particular Deputies representing city constituencies—are well aware of the fact that a number of secondary education establishments in the City of Dublin have very long waiting lists. I do not know whether it is actually true or not, but it is frequently said that to obtain admission, you require some degree of influence. Of course, this situation should not exist as regards children seeking to obtain higher education. It exists mainly because of the shortage of secondary schools.

I should also like to draw the Minister's attention to the situation which has existed for a number of years in the City of Dublin. Consequent upon the rapid development of our city and the flow of our population out from the city centres, there has been a need for new schools. This need has continued to develop. Efforts have been made by those responsible to deal with it as rapidly as possible. Nevertheless, the situation still exists whereby children require to travel from outlying housing areas four or five miles to attend the school near where they resided previously.

The actual condition is that, even though the plans of the local authority to provide houses have been known well in advance and sites have been made available as speedily as possible, the construction of the schools necessary in the new areas has not been completed for one, two or even three years after the families went to live in the new areas. This has caused hardship on the children and economic hardship on the families, and it has contributed a great deal to absenteeism from schools. There are many hundreds of parents in and around the City of Dubin who are very seriously concerned because of the difficulty in obtaining places in schools for their children near their homes.

I note that the Minister indicates that he has accepted, and will operate in full, the recommendation of the last arbitration on teachers' salaries. I think that should be noted with approval by this House.

In conclusion, I would ask the Minister again if he will examine carefully the position of primary education from the point of view of the child whose only education is primary education, because that is vital to the education system and vital not only to the children at present but to future generations of our citizens.

Mr. J. Brennan

The subject under discussion is of sufficient importance, I suppose, for each Deputy to make some contribution, however brief. Sometimes our silence is likely to be interpreted as acquiescence in the present system, or as meaning that all is well, whereas few Deputies will agree that all is well in the matter of primary education or, for that matter, of secondary education.

Various Ministers time and again have made suggestions. One Minister recently made a novel suggestion, that of setting aside one day in the week, in which the teacher could indulge in any type of programme he decided on. It was an admirable suggestion but I do not recollect what the outcome was. So far as I know, no action was taken about it at the time. Most people agree that the curriculum is overcrowded at the present time and that in the schools—particularly one-teacher schools, which are so plentiful, unfortunately, throughout rural Ireland, due to declining averages—it would be impossible to cover adequately all the subjects the teachers are supposed to cover. I found it a good suggestion at the time, and if one day were set aside on which the teacher could choose any subject he pleased, whether general knowledge, rural science or any other topic, or even ordinary discussion, it might be a very useful thing, as it would create a taste which the children have not very often developed in the primary schools.

However, the Minister can hardly be expected at this stage to have had time to work out any new or revolutionary changes in the system. I submit it is a system which lends itself to close examination time and again, with a view to bringing in the necessary changes.

Coming from a constituency like Donegal, one is necessarily interested in the more important aspect of education—the vocational continuation education. We are concerned mainly with the lack of funds for the full development of educational facilities in our area. Unfortunately, many of our people cannot afford the luxury of secondary education and the technical school is the only prospect for the thousands of children who cannot look forward to getting—let alone an education in some of the snob schools— education in the ordinary secondary schools throughout the country.

We look to the vocational schools to provide a much needed want and give to those children a continuation of education which otherwise they must go without. Sometimes it is said: why send children to vocational schools when they have to emigrate afterwards? Better provide work before you provide them with better educational facilities. My answer to that is: whether they are to emigrate or not, better send out into the world fit to meet whatever hazards they may have to overcome in life; better send them out to do a more useful job for themselves and the country they represent.

Equip them to meet the world whether it be at home or abroad.

We should have reached a time when vocational educational facilities should be at the disposal of every poor family in the country, particularly in the congested and Gaeltacht areas where there is very little of such facilities at the moment. This year we received bad news with regard to our grant. I do not want to say any more other than to express the hope that that is only a temporary setback which will be overcome in the future.

Vocational education, too, is something which should be re-examined with regard to a particular bias, and our experience already goes to show that it is necessary in the rural schools to give it a rural bias. Rural science, agriculture, horticulture, anything related to the land, is essential if we are ever to restore not merely a love for the land but even a slight incentive for the youth to remain on the land.

There are other branches of vocational education which are not properly developed along the western seaboard. Perhaps our best hopes for the future must be based on the fishing industry. We have scarcely a marine school, scarcely a subject related to marine products, to fishing or navigation, taught in any school. I would like the Minister to examine the possibilities of introducing in the technical schools established on the western seaboard subjects covered by competent teachers relating to the fishing industry.

The fishing industry is becoming, and I hope will more rapidly become, more scientific day by day. If our young people are to adapt themselves to the changing methods of the more up-to-date system and the various contrivances which are now applied to the industry, we must train the youth in order to give them an opportunity to play a full part in the development of the industry and thereby give to themselves employment which they can find at home or are likely to find at home if the necessary development takes place. If we find there are not sufficient schools in which to have these subjects taught on the western seaboard—and when I say the western seaboard I mean from Donegal to Kerry, and I do not think one would find very many technical schools on that coast—then let us set about providing those schools.

Why should we devote the preponderance of the money voted in this House to providing schools in the larger cities to equip youth for unproductive employment? Any expenditure in the way of continuation education now should be closely related to production and unless we concentrate on agriculture, horticulture and other subjects related to the land and to the fishing industry, we cannot say our expenditure on those schools in education of that type is going towards productive employment. Not merely is it important in that it would be related to production but also in that by being so related it would be related to the furtherance of practically the only potential industry on the western seaboard. If we are to save the western seaboard, if we are to keep our people there at all, it is only by concentrating now on what is likely to equip them for the main industries which belong to those areas.

Therefore, I would suggest to the Minister that he should devote a good deal of study and thought to the question, firstly, of providing additional schools in the areas where they are most needed and, secondly, of providing therein the type of education which will equip our young people for employment which they are likely to get in their own country. A good deal of money is required for any project of a useful kind nowadays. One is not likely to undertake the spending of vast amounts unless one is satisfied that it is going towards a useful purpose. I do not think that any commission who would inquire into the suggestion I make, or any Minister who would give the necessary study to the problem, would fail to come to the conclusion that any money spent in that direction would be spent in a proper manner and in a manner which would ultimately give better results to the country, to the educational system as a whole, and to industry which is crying out for the necessary development and a better technical know-how to pursue that industry.

In conclusion, I would earnestly appeal to the Minister to give some serious thought to that matter in connection with the forthcoming Estimates, so that next year when we come to discuss this Estimate we will find that greater progress has been made towards the provision of technical schools in the congested and Gaeltacht areas, of a more suitable curriculum to provide the type of continuation education of which our youth in the congested areas are sadly in need at the moment. I want to express the hope also, as I said, that the curtailment of the grant towards the development of our educational facilities is only a temporary setback which will be made good in the near future.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.