Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Fisheries (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (16th Dáil) – Thursday, 6 Jun 1957

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Fisheries (Resumed).

Mr. O. Flanagan

In view of what I have been saying with regard to the manner in which the Minister may acquaint himself with the valuable information and firsthand knowledge of the requirements of the fishermen themselves, might I suggest again that he visit those areas and consult with them? I have pointed out that, in the opinion of the fishermen in every part of the country, at no time did any one of them indicate that An Bord Iascaigh Mhara was an organisation that they looked upon with anything but favour. I can recollect asking a group of fishermen after a meeting of the local development association in Castletownbere, and some time previously in Schull in West Cork, what was their opinion, in so far as they were concerned with An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. The reply that came from the fishermen of West Cork was identical with that which came from the fishermen in every other district. It was that if the board was put out of existence they would be at the mercy of those who would crush them out of existence if it was possible.

In accordance with the Fishery Acts, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara has an advisory body known as An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara. An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara was set up under the Acts for the purpose of advising the board on all matters relating to the fishing industry. I understand that An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara had representatives of the wholesale and retail fish trade, the fishermen themselves and representatives of all branches and sections of the fishing Industry.

I do not know if the Minister examined the position with regard to the existence of An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara at the moment because An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara was generally intended, in accordance with the legislation passed by this House, to be solely and entirely an advisory body. During my time in the Department I found that An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara——

Mr. Haughey

Resigned in a body.

Mr. O. Flanagan

——regarded themselves as so important that they looked upon themselves as being the board despite the fact that it was laid down clearly that their function was entirely and mainly advisory and their job was to make recommendations and advise the board. The board was under no obligation whatever to act on the advice or the recommendations of An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara. I understand that An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara is now non-existent because of the registration of the members.

I should be glad if the Minister would tell us in the course of his reply if he has examined the position with regard to An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara. Will he have any advisory body established? Will he invite the existing members of An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara to reconsider their action in resigning in a body because I felt that there was no justification whatever for An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara resigning as they did?

From my experience—any I have gone carefully and closely into it—they were always listened to by the board. They were always given a hearing by the board and I cannot recall any occasion upon which the Chairman of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara or the board, as a body, were not prepared to listen attentively to whatever recommendations or advice An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara had to offer. I found from examining the whole position that An Comhlaches Iascaigh Mhara was endeavouring to lay down policy to the board. In other words, they were dictating to the board. While they may have been enthsiastic, sincere and overpowered with their own energies, I find that the purpose of the board is merely to advise and not to dictate.

Accordingly, I should be glad if the Minister would let us know what he proposes to do with regard to the reconstitution of An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara, whether he proposes to allow them to die out, leave them, like Mahomet's coffin in the air, neither up nor down, or call them in, discuss matters with them and lay down clearly where they stand and how. In accordance with the Acts passed in this House their job was to advice, probe and investigate any matter connected with the fishery industry and, if asked by the board or the Minister, give their report and observations thereon.

Mr. Haughey

What would the Deputy suggest?

Mr. O. Flanagan

I think they were a useful body. I am very serious when I say they were a useful body if they had kept to the function they were intended to discharge. They were intended to advise and I find they did not advise in regard to matters upon which they were asked to advise. They did not respond with advice but were prepared to dictate policy to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and, in addition, they were prepared to dictate policy to the Minister for Fisheries.

Mr. Dillon

They publish a very expensive newspaper.

Mr. O. Flanagan

An advisory body of that character could be very helpful to the board and could be of very great assistance to the Minister for Lands. Might I say in passing that whilst there were men of common sense and intelligence on An Comhlachas Iascaigh Mhara, I am very much afraid their own interests personally in the fishing industry were inclined to influence them in their decisions? I feel that the advice of An Comhlaches Iascaigh Mhera could be of great assistance and immense value both to the board and the Minister if there was a common sense advisory body, as was laid down in the Fisheries Acts, merely to act in an advisory capacity but to end at that.

The board has done an immense amount of valuable and useful work. The present board, the last board and the board established under the Fishery Act have done good work. The evidence of that good work can be seen in the very many centres round the coast. The Minister pointed out that the board had a long term programme of development works. The long term programme of development works was the result of a survey made all round the coast. I, as well as the Minister for Agriculture, was particularly interested in seeing that this development programme went full steam ahead because in the many ares which one visited the plea was for ice. In most districts where there was a need for ice plants, quick freezing departments were necessary. Cold storage was necessary and there were many areas in which fishermen complained that, when they transported their landings to the fishing centers, there was no ice and if they had transport difficulties the fish might be left over for some hours and, with a shortage of ice and no facilities available, all their hard work and labour went by the board since the fish decayed.

That was a position which I feel the board tackled with some results. I remember visiting Ballycotton, County Cork, and I attended myself a meeting which was called by the local fishermen and presided over by the local curate, Father Walsh. It was also attended by the Deputies of all parties for the constituency. The two essentials in that district were the extension of the pier and the provision of an ice plant.

I remember reporting back to the Minister for Agriculture and, without hestitation, arrangements were made with the board for the provision of an ice plant at Ballycotton. That ice plant was reffered to by the Minister for Lands in his opening statement. I am glad to see that it is nearing completion.

I want to deal at length with the extension of piers. I feel we have not got the support from county engineers and councils we would require in that regard. No matter how energetic or enthusiastic the Minister for Lands may be about improving landing facilities for fishermen, he will find it extremely difficult to provide such facilities if he does not get co-opertion from the local authorities and the county engineers.

I want to come back to the question of the provision of ice plants. Ballycotton is a district in which an ice plant is now almost completed and where it is urgently required. The board and the Department of Agriculture realised their responsibilities and the plant was provided. That plant will be of immense value to the local fishermen.

In recent years there has been a considerable growth in the fishing industry at Castletownbere. I have not the figures before me, but if the Minister looks at the statistics of landings at Castletownbere he will find that they have been increasing steadily. Ranking very high behind Killybegs is Castletownbere. The fishermen are skilful, courageous and industrious. They are not afraid to brave the seas and work hard. They are building up a very find fishing fleet there. I forecast great things for the fishing industry at Castletownbere.

Some time ago, I attended a meeting at Castletownbere and, when I was asked for certain facilities, I felt it would not be right to stand in the way of a reasonable request. The then Minister of Agriculture had no hesitation in saying that whatever facilities were required in Castletownbere would be granted. I attended the meeting in the knowledge that the request would be met in view of the increased landings of fish and of the value of the industry to the people there. There were representations from the parish priest, the Bishop of Cork, and others, to the effect that fishermen were emigrating and others were about to emigrate from the district and that the only way to keep them at home, working as their fathers and grandfathers before them worked, was to provide them with the up-to-date facilities which would give them an interest in the fishing industry that would eventually yield a profit to themselves and to their families. The very same evening on which the request was made for the ice plant at Castletownbere I was able to announce that it would go up. I do not know what progress has been made but I am sure it is nearing completion.

Now I come to discuss the district of Schull in West Cork where we have some of the finest types of fishermen to be found on any part of our coast. The board has carried out improvements in Schull. For years, during the term of office of a Fianna Fáil Government, the fishing industry there was neglected to a great extent. Deputy Wycherley is the only West Cork Deputy present at the moment. I should like him to tell us whether or not the fishing industry in West Cork is better off to-day than it was when I first took over. That constituency has benefited as a result of the schemes in Schull, Castletownbere and elsewhere along the West Cork coast where we found that the people were prepared to work hard. These were the districts to which we gave special attention and assistance. There is an old saying that God helps those who help themselves. We found the fishermen in those districts hard-working and industrious.

Another area in which I was extremely interested and for which I was anxious to do something was Kinsale. It has one of the finest harbours I have ever seen. Furthermore, Kinsale was once a fishing centre. I am told that for generations many families completely depended for their livelihood on fishing. In recent years that tradition seems to have died out. An effort was made to revive the fishing industry in the Kinsale district and I was personally interested in that development. I urge the Minister to continue the work where I left off. I urge him to make every effort to develop the Kinsale area. Although the landings of fish there may not be very great at the moment, there is a fishing background there. The people have the will and the determination to work if the facilities they require are provided

A number of fishermen in the Kinsale area applied to the board for boats. It takes about ten months to build a boat and Deputies will appreciate that, if five or six fishermen apply for a boat which takes such a long time to build, the board has a difficult task to allocate it. I appeal to the Minister to impress on the members of the board to keep the claims of Kinsale in mind. I had great hopes of Kinsale as a result of my visit there. It is a natural harbour and one of the safest I have visited. Everything was there except the boats for the fishermen.

Mr. MacCarthy

The Deputy was not able to get anything done about the clearing of the pier there.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I am glad Deputy MacCarthy has raised that point. I think the Cork County Council came into that matter. I think there was correspondence between the Department and the Cork County Council. On the question of piers and safe anchorage, may I say that in whatever district you have conversations with fishermen they will all tell you that the one real essential is safe anchorage for their boats? It is the greatest possible inconvenience to fishermen not to have safe anchorage. A number of piers along the whole coast require extension and general improvement. Just think of a fishing boat coasting about £10,000. It cannot be left in an unsafe harbour or in a place which has not safe anchorage because, in unusually stormy weather, the boat could be smashed against the walls and severely damaged in one bad night if the fishermen or the crew happened to be at home.

I think the Minister for Lands would be doing a good day's work if he would consult with his colleagues, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Local Government and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, and endeavour to devise some scheme whereby one authority alone will be responsible for the extension of breakwaters, the provision of safe anchorages and proper harbour facilities for fishermen. I do not know if the Department of the Gaeltacht would be the right Department. The Gaeltacht has been defined by the House and there are many fishing districts outside it which require attention.

It will be extremely difficult for the Minister to make headway in providing funds for safe anchorages and harbours. I remember that the Fianna Fáil Government, before the coming of the inter-Party Government, had under consideration a plan for the setting up of four or five major fishing centres. Those major fishing centres were to be situated on the Cork coast, the Galway coast, the Mayo coast and some place on the east coast. Consideration was given to the question of providing such a station at Rossaveal in Connemara. I think the sum mentioned for the provision of this one fishing station went into five figures.

I believe that, instead of setting up major fishing centres to the detriment of the smaller fishing communities, and instead of spending huge sums of money on one area, it would be better to divide up the money amongst places like Ballycotton, Castletownbere, Clogher Head, Schull, certain districts in County Mayo and places like Inver in Donegal where I saw the sprat being landed in very large quantities. I thought they were short of the proper landing facilities at Inver. Remember that the fishing fleet will only go where they are used to going, where there is safe anchorge, where they are convenient to their homes and where there is transport to take their fish to the markets. Instead of concentrating on the establishment of major fishing centres, the Minister should try to improve the old centres, give the fishermen the facilities they require by setting up cold storage plants and the like. Do not try to build up new fishing centres and let the old ones fall down. Carry out the improvements necessary in those areas and do not wastefully sink millions of pounds into the sea by developing areas which will not be used by the fishermen.

I remember meeting a group of fishermen in Galway. I asked them a straight question: "Do you want a major fishing station set up in Rossaveal?" Although there were 30 or 40 fishermen present, not a single one said "Yes." They wanted improvements carried out to places like Kilronan and Sruthan where the boats were coming in.

I should like to be helpful to the Minister. I can assure him, that, whatever I may be political on, I will not be political in dealing with a matter of such importance and in which I had such great interest these past three years. I will give him co-opertion, a fair opinion and encouragement in carrying out his work. I am asking him not to waste large sums of money, unless he is quite satisfied that there is an urgent demand from the fishermen of the various districts concerned and that, when the schemes are carried out, the fishermen will use the facilities provided. I want him to carry out schemes that will be practical and sound, that will result in increased landings of fish and will improve the lot of the local fishermen.

I am glad to see that special consideration is being given to Dunmore East. I remember reading an article about Dunmore East where it was said that, during the herring gluts, large consignments had to be dumped back into the sea. I visited Dunmore East some time before that incident. It is a place with a wonderful tradition of fishing. One need only walk around, see the ruins of the old salting and kippering houses of the past and speak to the older fishermen, to recall the days when Dunmore East was a hive of fishing industry. I am glad some effort is being made to provide facilities for Dunmore East. Before I left office, I gave a direction to the board that preference was to be given to Dunmore East in providing whatever facilities the fishermen required. Whilst I speak hastily of Dunmore East, I may say also that instructions were given to deal with Helvie in Waterford under the Gaeltacht boats scheme to which I shall refer later.

With regard to dumping fish into the sea, God knows the lot of the fisherman is hard enough. The calling requires a lot of courage and skill, and sometimes lives are lost. As a matter of fact, this very day 12 months, if my memory serves me alright, two young men lost their lives fishing off Donegal. I think it was the 6th of June last year. There are other instances of brave and courageous men losing their lives at fishing, while the teaching, the Guard, the shopkeeper and the civil servant enjoy much more home life. The fisherman's life is a dangerous one; it is risky from many angles. In addition to the danger to himself, he must depend on the weather. Most of us to not have to depend on the weather, most of us do not have to be brave to live, most of us do not have to risk our lives to earn our living. All these are essentials in the good qualities of a fisherman.

When we have such a limited number of fishermen, I fail to understand why we cannot cater well for them and try to make them as prosperous as possible. I felt—and I am sure the Minister also feels—while I was in that Department my parimary object and aim was to make the fishermen better off, to get them a better standard of living. It was the one interest I had; the interest of the fisherman himself was primary concern. I would ask the Minister, while he is in charge of Fisheries—whether his stay there be long or short—to make his primary concern none other than to improve the lot of the fisherman himself. Otherwise, you cannot have fish for the table, you cannot have fish on fish slabs in the shops, or fish for other purposes.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. O. Flanagan

I was speaking of the qualities necessary for a good fisherman. He must be brave and courageous. He must not be afraid to fact the weather or to leave his family for days in difficult weather. It is very gratifying to hear—and I am sure Donegal Deputies in all Parties will be pleased—that when one visits a fishing district like Castletownbere one is told the fishermen from Killybegs have fished all down along the coast and have come in and rested at Castletownbere and gone out again. That cannot be done overnight. Again, you will hear of the Killybegs fishermen fishing for two or three nights without a return home.

The weather has to be favourable and one would expect a good return for one's labour, but if it is not favourable they may come home with small catches. When Dunmore East was mentioned, I thought I should refer to the dumping of fish. Heaven know— and I am sure the Minister will appreciate that before long in his Department —that fishermen lead lonely, tedious and difficult lives enough without finding, when they obtain a good catch, that there is no market for it and it has to be dumped into the sea. There have been cases where fishermen went out and braved the weather, risked whether they would return to their wives and families or not, and came back with very substantial catches. When they were landed, there was not buyer, no market; they could get nothing per cran for the boatloads of fish. Surely that is encouraging, surely it is depressing, surely it cannot lead to anything but a bad effect on the future of fishing?

We had the same complaint from parts of Donegal. I remember receiving a deputation of fishermen in some part of County Donegal. They said that the greatest difficulty they had was, having worked hard and expected a return from their labour, to find that for fish landed on the pier there was no buyer. They could get nothing for the fish. Fish cannot be kept indefinitely; if one tries to keep it, it will move away slowly by itself, particularly if there is not ice plant or no proper cold storage. However, it is a great hardship on the fishermen to be obliged to dump into the sea the fish they have laboured so hard to catch and on the sale of which their wives and families at home are depending.

Let any Deputy picture the wife or the small school-going children of a fisherman, who is out fishing for two or three nights, who returns home and whose catch has been most favourable and yet who finds when it arrives at anchorage that there is no market whatever for his substantial catch. Is there any reason why that man or his family should not be slowly driven to despair? We have had instances of that and such instances made us think of what we could do with surplus catches and try to find an outlet for them. The outlet is not on the table, or in the hotel; the outlet is not consumption on the Irish market, because there are many other requirements before that can be done—ice, depots, transport and a proper price which will be attractive to the housewives. We cannot solve the provision of a market for surplus fish except by one way, that is, the setting up of fishmeal factories.

I want the Minister for Lands to bear with me for a few moments, in regard to the manufacture of fishmeal. It takes five tons of fish to make one ton of fishmeal. There are demands and appeals from many acreas around the coast that fishmeal factories be set up. Those who make these representations do not realise that one needs a constant, regular and huge supply of fish for fishmeal purposes. Let any Deputy imagine the problem, if you set up a fishmeal factory, which is a most expensive undertaking, and then find that there is no fish for it. What is to become of it? That is why we must be very cautions in our plans for the setting up of such factories.

In Dunmore East and in Donegal there were complaints of the dumping of fish in the sea. I remember consulting the Minister for Agriculture, on an occasion on which Fianna Fáil Deputies raised the question from these very benches—when sadness, gloom and depression descended on the House—of fishermen whose fish had to be dumped in the sea. After consultation with the chairman and other members of the board, we decided that the remedy was the setting up of fishmel plants. By the setting up of these plants, we would make sure that no fisherman would have to dump one single fish into the sea. A Deputy may ask: "Did you set up a fishmeal factory?" We were three years in office and before I left office arrangements were made for setting up, on a private and commercial scale, of the first large-scale fishmeal factory at Killybegs.

Mr. Haughey

What about Ballinasloe?

Mr. O. Flanagan

That is for dead horses and for fishmeal.

Mr. Childers

It is for sharks as well.

Mr. O. Flanagan

It will ensure, when in production, that our imports of fishmeal will be cut down. It will manufacture a commodity for which there is a unlimited market and it will safeguard the fishermen of the district against the distasteful task of dumping a single fish into the sea.

Those are three reasons why I advocated the setting up of the fishmeal factory at Killybegs and why we were so anxious to do so. I want to pay tribute, at this stage, to the public spirit of the progressive industrialists who are about to engage in the manufacture of fishmeal at Killybegs. When they were over here, they got every possible help, co-operation, advice and guidance from the Fisheries Brance, to such an extent that they came back to my office and said that, even though they were engaged in the manufacture of fishmeal on the Continent, they were amazed at the courtesy, kindliness and helpful assistance that they received from the officers of the Fisheries Branch in the selection of the location for their first fishmeal factory here.

Even though this fishmeal factory is a private concern, it does not relieve the State of the responsibility of providing other fishmeal factories. Apart altogether from the advent of these progressive industrialists who are undertaking the establishment of this factory at Killybegs, the State and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara would have provided a first full-scale factory, one way or the other.

I hope the Minister will bear with me while I make this suggestion. The setting up of this fishmeal factory will help the Exchequer and considerably relieve the burden on An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. I suggest, however, that they should still proceed with the erection of factories on the south or south-west coast to make sure that there will be no question of dumping any fish at Dingle, Cahirciveen, Castletownbere, Ballycotton, Dunmore East, Schull or any other place on the south or south-west coast.

The Minister said that a sum of £4,000 was being provided in the Estimate as partial recoupment of estimated losses on the Killybegs pilot fishmeal plant. No one could expect an experimental scheme to pay and this plant was erected as an experiment. It was worked as an experiment and, being an experiment, one could not expect it to pay its way. Experiments are essential if one wants to collate information or find results, and one must be prepared to spend money on experiments in order to put oneself in a position to judge results.

Every penny spent on the expermental fishmeal plant at Killybegs was money well spent and, in addition to that, it gave the officers and staff and the board a thorough knowledge of the manufacture of fishmeal. It gave them a thorough knowledge of the manufacture of fish oil, a very important byproduct of fishmeal. It gave new security, hew hope and a new guarantee to the fishermen in the area. That is why I impress its importance on Deputies. I feel there are Deputies here who have not a clue as to the wonderful developments which have taken place in Killybegs in the processing of fish. Killybegs is well worth a visit and I am sure the Minister will be only too pleased to facilitate Deputies wh want to see for themselves the magnificent work that is in progress there.

When I wanted certain moneys, I got them. When economies were being exercised in every Department of State, the Fisheries Brance was the branch in which the smallest cut was made. When the Minister was put in charge of Fisheries, I am sure there was a great sigh of relief on the part of those engaged in the industry. They said: "Now we have a man who understands figures. He is an expert and he will not have any trouble in figuring out of the Minister for Finance whatever sums are necessary for full-scale fishery development." Perhaps this is the first hint, by way of confession on the part of the Minister, that so far as the fishing industry is concerned, it will now fall on hard times, just like the mental hospital patients and the people who will have to pay 7/6 for an X-ray and all the other things that do not arise on this Estimate.

It was intended to put up a fishmeal factory in any event. Now a private concern has stepped in and I hope, therefore, that the Minister will find it possible to set up a fishmeal factory on the south coast. I would like to advocate the claims of certain areas. Others my think other areas better. I do not mind where the factory is, so long as it is established and so long as the fishermen can reap the benefits. In order to benefit, the fishermen will have to ensure that no single fish landed by them will be put back into the sea. I ask the Minister to ensure that the board does not lie down on the job of providing fish so far as fishmeal factories are concerned. To manufacture one ton of fishmeal, five tons of fish are required, and to manufacture ten tons, one requires ten times that amount. So that an enormous amount of fish is required. A fishmeal factory, therefore, must be established where there are continuous landings of fish.

There is no reason why our fishermen should not fish for fishmeal purposes alone. I know that there are fishermen who will say that they are not interested in fishing for fishmeal purposes. They prefer to fish for the Dublin market. Fish caught off the Cork coast and landed at Schull or Castletownbere is at the moment put into a larry, taken straight to Dublin, sold on the Dublin market and brought down again to Cork and sold in Cork. Fishermen are no fools. They send their fish where the price is good. The price is good where the population is big and the big market is the Dublin market. That is where the demand is and that is where an intelligent fisherman will send his fish.

I thought it was a crazy system the first time I heard of it. I am sure the Minister has made himself familiar with many aspects of the industry over the past two months, but it will be a long time before he knows everything about the industry. I was there for three years and I am sure there are still many aspects of the industry of which I never heard. I referred to the bringing of the fish from Cork nearly 200 miles to Dublin and transporting it back to Cork again.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Why did the Deputy not stop that?

Mr. O. Flanagan

To stop that would be a very foolish thing as I shall explain to the Deputy in a few minutes. I would not ask the Minister for Lands to stop that immediately because the fishermen want the best possible price. Compel the fishermen to sell their fish in Cork and they will not get the same price as in the Dublin market. Deputy Burke might like to see them selling it at a cheaper rate. The fisherman could send his fish to Timbuck too if it could arrive there in sound condition and if he could get the best price for it.

I shall tell Deputy Burke what I did do for the fishermen of West Cork and other areas who had to send their fish to the Dublin market. C.I.E. was engaged in the transport of fish from where the fish was landed right up to the Dublin market. The fish would be ready for the Dublin market around midnight, and maybe about 4 o'clock in the morning C.I.E. would arrive to take it up. Sometimes they would say: "We have to change drivers. You will have to wait until to-morrow." More times they would say: "We are going to go slow. There is a certain limit which we cannot pass." Another time they would say: "There are trade union regulations. We are driving all day. We are not going to drive all night." A strange driver who may not know the road may take over with the result that the fish arrive at the Dublin market two or three hours late. The Minister for Lands will not have to deal with that situation because it is solved or at least partially solved.

There were many instances in which a licensed carrier tried to do his best to get the fish up to the Dublin market. An accident might have happened on the road or there might have been a breakdown. If there was a serious breakdown in the early hours of Friday morning who would buy fish if it did not arrive in time for the sales? Who would eat it on Friday night or Saturday? There would be no one to eat it on Sunday and it would have gone bad by Monday.

Some steps had to be taken, herefore, to safeguard the fishermen against transport losses. An ice plant was provided for this purposes. You cannot keep fish without ice. I am sure Deputy Haughey would nearly know that. Again, as regards transport, any lorry cannot carry fish around. It must have supplies of ice in ice containers. C.I.E., I found, was most unsatisfactory. I received many complaints from West Cork and the districts around it, and when I investigated them I found that, nine times out of ten, the fisherman was right. C.I.E. were probably trying to give the best service but the person who transported fish by C.I.E. found that it was unprofitable to so so.

I approached the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Norton, at the time in an endeavour to ensure as far as possible that the transport of fish would be undertaken in lorries other than lorries with merchandise plates. I made certain progress. Legal proceedings were pending against a number of lorry owners in the West Cork district who were doing their best to oblige fishermen in taking their fish to the Dublin market—and goodness knows when you have to take fish from Bantry or Schull and arrive in here at 6.30 in the morning you want a good truck, and a sober and reliable man to make sure of arriving in time, because it is disastrous for the owner of the fish if it arrives ten minutes after the sales. When I satisfied myself that C.I.E. were not giving good service in this regard, that they were too slow, I made arrangements for fish to be transported other than by C.I.E. Since fish, like milk and butter, is a perishable commodity, I felt that any person who had a lorry or van suitably and properly equipped with ice containers, should be permitted by the laws of the land to transport fish in urgency to any market without breaking the law.

I would ask the Minister for Lands to continue where I left off in furthering representations to the Department of Industry and Commerce to see that fish will not be included in the list of commodities that must be transported under merchandise licence. I am sure that milk and butter are excluded—O am spaking only from memory—and surely if they are excluded there is no reason why fish cannot be excluded. The Minister can understand the keen disappointment of these fishermen who, after all their work and haviong been lucky with their catch, find that there is a breakdown in transport because of bad service by an incompetent concern, whethr it be C.I.E. or a private concern. The loss that C.I.E. has to face fades into insignificance by comparison with the loss of that consignment of fish to the fisherman and his family.

I remember dealing with that problem in a place called Kilmore Quay in County Wexford. I was approached to know what could be done in that regard. Legal proceedings were pending at the time against the carrier who transported the fish in haste from Kilmore Quay to the Dublin market, who came under the eye of the law and was the recipient of a summons for a breach of the Merchandise Act or whatever the relevant Act was. The only solution I could come to at the time was to ask the fishermen of Kilmore Quay to form a co-operative society and get their own lorry. When they had all come together in a co-operative seociety there would be team work, they would have their own lorry and they could bring their own fish where they liked. They said that would be a good idea. I travelled to Kilmore Quay and with the assistance of the parish priest, a Fr. Doyle, and of the local curate, who was also a Fr. Doyle, and the co-operation and energy of a fisherman who lost his life very shortly afterwards, a co-opertaive society was formed. They got their own lorry and their fish is transported any time and any place they like and they can snap their fingers at the law.

When the co-operative society was formed, they decided that they would take into its membership the fishermen from around the Kilmore Quay district, that they would make inquiries about marketing and storage and make provision for ice. They already had provision ofr transport. When they formed the society they used the society's own van.

The progress, harmony and good work in Kilmore Quay that have been brought about through the establishment of the fishermen's co-operative society made me advocate the establishment of other such co-operative societies. I would be glad if, in every district around our coast where there are hard-working, enterprising fishermen, they would form themselves into co-operative societies with the advice which will be readily available if necessary, from the Fisheries Branch or from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. These societies could fidn the best and most profitable market. They could have their own transport, their own boxes and their own supplies of ice. They could have their won storage facilities and would have their own good contacts for the disposal of the fish. Through co-operative societies of which an example was given in Kilmore Quay, the fishing industry can be made more profitable and considerably more efficient by the fishermen themselves.

I do not know what the attitude of the Minister for Lands is towards the co-operative movement. It appealed to me greatly. I was impressed by it. I saw the good work that was undertaken where there was a combination' of energetic and enthusiastic men, with drive and initiative, all determined to achieve success and all anxious to achieve the common aim of improving the community in thier immediate vicinity and helping as far as possible their fellow workers. I realised the good results that were] achieved. I regret that the headline set by Kilmore Quay was not followed in other coastal districts. I encouraged the estabnlishment of co-operative societies. I asked for it.

I remember being approached on the subject by the late Canon Hayes, who was extremely anxious that the lot of the fishermen should be improved and that their standard of living should receive greater public attention. Shortly after the establishment of the co-operative movement in Kilmore Quay, the late Canon Hayes visited the area and consulted some of the men directly concerned. The late Canon Hayes afterwards told me that it was evident that the results were extremely favourable. Because of the fact that through that movement the men could transport the fish more cheaply and efficiently and more safely than C.I.E. or any other concern, they were able to bring about a greater measure of prosperity. I saw for myself the improvements that had taken place as a result of the united effort and I recommended the establishment of fishermen's co-operative societies in other areas and was astonished at the results. I hope the Minister for Lands will give some consideration to that matter.

Criticism and suggestions offered on Estimates are not for the purpose of obstruction or destruction but for the purpose of construction. Everything that I say here to-day I say with a sincere and full heart, believing that the information at my disposal may be of some assistance to the Minister in righting some of the wrongs that I knew existed and completing the righting of the wrongs that I had half completed and left to my successor to complete. I would ask the Minister to examine the position with regard to Kilmore Quay. He should be able to satisfy himself that if co-operative societies were established in other areas, having the same energy, enthusiasm and drive behind them, there would be little doubt as to their success.

The transport o fish is of the greatest possible importance. I have explained very clearly that late arrival of fish on the Dublin market represents a financial loss to the fishermen and that the standard of transport that they have had is far from efficient.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already gone into that matte at length.

Mr. O. Flanagan

In view of its importance, I was reminding the Minister. I wish to refer now to boatyards. There are boatyards at Dingle, Baltimore, Meevagh and Killybegs. Deputies fail to understand why boats cannot be provided within a short time of the application being made. I doubt if the Minister has had an opportunity of visiting the boatyards. The boatyard at Meevagh was closed down by the Fianna Fáil Government and reopened and put into production by the former Minister for Aggriculture. During our term of office as an inter-Party Government there was more work going ahead in all the boatyards than there had been since baoatyards were first established. There was full-time employment given.

Mr. Moloney

The people in the boatyards do not say that.

Mr. O. Flanagan

They were given the orders to build the boats. We even made arrangements with some of the private boat builders—there are very few in this country—and they could no cope with the building because they had received continental orders. We were told that by some concern in another area. In Meevagh, Killybegs, Baltimore and Dingle, boats were being built. Orders had been placed. The boat building industry was experiencing its busiest and most properous period for a very long time.

One must remember that a boat cannot be provided overnight. The drawings have to be laid out in great detail and it takes from nine to 11 months to build a boat and to finish it. In some boatyards two boats cannot be built simultaneously. One boat must be moved off before the construction of the second boat is commenced. The rate of boat building in this country is far from being able to cope with the demand.

To whom are you to give a boat? Listening to the Minister for Lands when he introduced this Estimate one would imagine that it was only now steps were being taken by him to see that skippers of those boats would be fully qualified, educated, competent and experienced men. I hope the people who have read the Minister's speech will not get the impression that educational facilities for skippers are only now starting. We started that scheme a long time ago. As a matter of fact we already have a number of skippers who have qualified. It is not to-day that the education of these skippers is taking place but I am glad the Minister is to continue on that line——

Mr. Childers

It was started by the Taoiseach in February, 1954—perhaps the Deputy forgets.

It is no harm to remind the Minister that the educational facilities for the training of skippers were stated by us and the scheme is in progress. I hope and trust the Minister for Lands will see that the scheme continues and that the educational facilities we are anxious to place at the disposal of enterprising young fishermen anxious to learn and improve their technique in the use of the most modern types of fishing boats will remain.

It costs something like £10,000 to produce a new fishing boat. Is anybody going to give a boat value for £10,000 to a man who does not know how to use it? I do not suggest for a moment that either the Minister for Lands or I should tell any fishermen what his job is or what his duties are He knows both and he is the best judge of his own business. The less interference he has from the Minister myself or anybody else the better. But when we are handing ove a boat to a fisherman at a cost of £10,000, is it not right that some authority should asses the qualifications of the man who is getting the boat to discover if he can us it and if he is familiar with modern equipment such as echo sounders used in connection with the most modern fishing boats? Does he know the mechanism and the working of it, and will he be able to teach his crew how to work the boat and its equipment?

The boat is given to him through An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. He puts down a deposit—I think it is 10 per cent.— and the State takes the risk on the remaining 90 per cent. of the cost. I think that is very reasonable. I do not say it is over-generous because you will also have the well-equipped, fully qualified skipper who cannot get the 10 per cent. deposit he needs to get a boat. I ask Deputies is there any other section of the community that can get the equivalent of £10,000, the State being responsible for £9,000 of it, on a deposit of £1,000?

I feel that the board's scheme for boats is not a bad one but, like everything else, it is open to improvement. It has been advocated by Muintir na Mara, by the fishermen themselves and by others interested in the industry that grants should be made available to fishermen for fishing boats as is the case in England and elsewhere. On the other hand, such a grant would have to be some thousands of pounds and I may say the person who finds it difficult to put down the deposit would probably find it difficult afterwards to make the repayments by instalments and meet his obligations. On the whole, the fishermen around our coasts who got boats from the board lived up to their obligations.

Mr. Haughey

They had no option. It was deducted from their catches.

Mr. O. Flanagan

May I ask a question of the Minister, for the information of Deputy Haughey? He claims that the owners of the boats have no alternative but to pay. The board claim a percentage of their catches of fish. Does he realise that there is no other security required, expect the 10 per cent. deduction? The State takes the risk and the responsibility for 90 per cent. of the cost of the boats. Is it not only right that the board and the State should have some safeguard in relation to sums in the region of £10,000?

Mr. Haughey

Are the boats insured?

Mr. O. Flanagan

The fishermen will become the full owners of the boats and can do what they like with them, provided they have fulfilled their obligations to the board. A fisherman can sail the seven seas, if the boat is sound and if he is courageous enough. He can sell the boat, provided he has paid the sum for which he is liable. Would it not be rather embarrassing if the tied boats system did not exist and if the fisherman was obliged to go round to his neighbours to get them to sign security dockets, or if he were obliged to go to a bank and get a sum on the security of his own house, or on the strength of his neighbours' banking accounts?

While there may be something to be said for a fisherman being able to go where he likes and to sell his fish to whomever he wishes, the man who has the tied boat much prefers to deal with the board than with anybody else. When I was in the Fishery Branch, I did not always wait for the advice of my officials. I asked a number of people concerned in the fishing industry whether they would prefer the tied boat system to a system under which they would be free agents. On every occasion, I was told the fishermen would prefer to deal with the board than with anybody else.

If the Minister for Lands has any doubts as to the views of the fishermen who own these boats under he tied boat system, I venture to say he should go for his information to the people concerned, instead of relying entirely on civil servants. Mind you, no matter how brilliant a Minister is, the wool can be pulled over his eyes. I do not say that happens in the Fisheries Branch. There is one way in which the Minister can safeguard himself against this, that is by collecting his information from the right source—from the people actively engaged in the industry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is now reflecting on the officials of the Department.

Mr. O. Flanagan

I made it clear that I was not referring to the Fisheries Branch. That does not say that when I was in charge of that branch, I accepted all the advice of the officials. I probed for my won information and I always preferred to shake off the Civil Service shackle. It is not always easy to do that when you are surrounded by civil servants from morning till night. I can speak with an open mind becasue the fishing industry does not concern my constituency. Though Deputy Haughey seems to think the fishermen are tied down too much under the tied boat system, I have no doubt that the fishermen prefer that system. They prefer to deal with the board because the board is a regular customer and a good payer.

The fisherman is no fool. If he has a preference, he will go where he gets the best price, to the person with whom he can strike the best bargain. He likes to have a uniform demand for his fish. All the fisherman who has a tied boat is concerned with is the paying off of his debt to the board. Some of the best fishermen in the South of Ireland to-day got boats from the board and they are now the owners of those boats. They went again to the board and got more boats. They got boats from outside the board in Scotland and they are now sailing into the best Scottish coasts. That is a tribute to them.

I ask the Minister for Lands not to allow any decline in boat building. It is easy to tell the housewife to buy fish, to tell the people in general to eat more fish and to try to put various types of fish on menus. However, before the fish are caught, you must have boats. The foundation of a good fishing industry is a community of courageous fishermen, equipped with first-class boats.

That is why I want to impress upon the Minister the necessity of moving cautiously in the matter of the boatyards at baltimore and Dingle. I make special reference to Dingle. I make feel that, in Dingle, there is ample scope for further development of the boatyard. When I was in the Department, I had in mind an examination of the position at Dingle, in the hope that further funds would be made available for the extension of the boatyard there. I hope the Minister will bear in mind that, apart entirely from the fact that Deingle is in the Gaeltacht, the boat building industry there is an asset to the people and to the Gaeltacht.

I should like to hear from the Minister the number of applications for boats which the board has and which have not yet been attended to. I know full well that it is not possible to give a boat to every fisherman who applies, but I should be very glad if arrangements could be made for the selection in the different areas of the most suitable types for these boats and for the placing of sufficient orders for new boats to give security of work in the boat building industry.

I have pointed out already. and I do not intend to labour it, that there were never as many employed on boat building as there were when the inter-Party Govenment was in office. Let that continue. Keep up that pressure and make further boats. We have the fishermen for them and we have the fish in the sea. When we have the fishermen factories, we shall have ample scope for the disposal of all fish. I have already dealt with the supplies of fish for consumption on the home market. I know that the Minister is anxious to see that the right and proper type of boat is made available and that the boatyards will be kept busy. If possible, more apprentices should be taken on in the boat building yards.

Boat building is a craft in itself. Like the Minister for Agriculture, Senator Moylan, part of my life was spent as a carpenter. I did not stay at that trade. I do not think I was a success at it. Nevertheless, I have a fair knowledge of work with hammer, saw and chisel and I have learned that one of the best and oldest crafts is the craft of boat building. I have learned that the ordinary carpenter, who undertakes the work of carpentry, and joinery, is entirely separate and distinct from the boat builder, who studies the manner in which boats are built and turned out ready for the sea. It is regrettable, that in some areas where we have experienced boat builders, we do not seem to have sufficient apprentices. The knowledge and skill that obtain amongst experienced boat builders are in danger of dying out if there are not sufficient apprentices to carry on.

I would ask the Minister for Lands to ensure that there will be sufficient apprentices. The records of the Department will show that, a very short time before we left office, I made and inquiry to the head of the Department in which I asked that an effort be made to ascertain the strength of the boatyards in regard to qualified and experienced boat builders. I asked to have the position examined to see if it was possible to have sufficient apprentices employed so that the apprentices would be able to take over later and carry on the work of boat building. Great experience could be placed at the disposal of apprentices by those in charge.

The Minister has told us in his speech that he has not had time yet to study the situation with regard to boatyards. I want to take this opportunity of directing his attention to the three German trawlers.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. O. Flanagan

They were purchased by Fianna Fáil. I remember those three trawlers well. I never saw them, but I can assure the Minister that I had dreams about them on many occasions. I saw their history. I saw the files from the day they were purchased until the day I left office. If my memory is correct three secondhand German trawlers were purchased by Deputy Bartley, when he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture. The sum of £62,000 or thereabouts was paid for those three boats. That is not too long ago. The next thing that happened was that there was a capital expenditure of £16,000 on them. Very shortly afterwards repairs were necessary to the extent of £10,000 and again we saw the three boats could not be used for fishing because the engine fell out of one of them, there was a useless engine in the second and the third engine broke down frequently.

When we took office we found that some machinery was left by Fianna Fáil in the Killybegs boatyard. When I went into the store at Killybegs—I think the Minister was with me at the time—I pointed to a piece of equipment and asked what it was. The superintendent told me that it was a new engine, bought and paid for, but they did not build any boat in which to put it. I asked what it was there for and it was said: "We will talk about that again." That new engine was lying there and no boat was being built in which it could be utilised. We had the three German trawlers and one of them was a boat without an engine. We had Fianna Fáil engines without boats at Killybegs and Fianna Fáil boats without engines on the sea. I should like to know from the Minister what he is going to do about those three trawlers? Is he going to this loss to continue? Is he going to allow the boats to remain with useless engines, engines that will take some-think in the region of £10,000 to repair?

Before I left office, the Minister for Agriculture gave a directive to dispose of these three German trawlers. In the debate on the Estimate last year, I said the Government were not going to tolerate losses of this kind. I should like the Minister to indicate what his policy will be in regard to those trawlers that were purchased for £62,000, that involved capital expenditure of £16,000 plus £10,000 for repairs? Before I left office there was an offer to sell the boats for £75,000. At least there was talk about the matter. I always felt those three boats were a liability. It was a bad purchase, a foolish purchase that owed no commonsense or intelligence. Those three trawlers ate up thousands upon thousands of pounds of taxpayers' money on repairs, and even when the repairs were carried out the boats could not be used; they still were not good boats. An engine would be put in one day and would fall out the next. A boat would go out fishing one night and would be back in port for a month. That was the type of boats purchased by Fianna Fáil.

If we were still in office, those boats would have been disposed of. I want to know what has happened the offer of £75,000 that was made for those boats? If the Minister for Lands tells us the Estimate was cut by £26,000 why, if he was so hard up for money, did he not sell those three old trawlers for £75,000? I do not know if the Minister has gone into the full history of those three German Trawlers. I do not propose to go closely into their history because I am sure the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, will himself have a word to say about their purchase when he is contributing his views to this debate. If there was any purchase based upon insanity, that had the nearest possible relationship to lunacy, it was the purchase of those three German trawlers.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 12th June, 1957.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 6 Jun 1957

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Fisheries (Resumed).

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1957