I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The Bill, as Deputies know, follows the usual stereotyped lines. It does four things. It authorises the issue out of the Central Fund of £2,480,190 which represents the sum total of 12 Supplementary Estimates for 1956-57 which were taken too late to enable them to be covered by the Central Fund Act, 1957. It authorises the issue from the Central Fund of the balance of the amount granted for the supply services for the current year. It empowers the Minister for Finance to borrow up to the limit of issues provided for in both the previous sub-sections and it appropriates to the several supply services the sums granted by the Dáil since the Appropriation Bill of 1956.
Committee on Finance. - Appropriation Bill, 1957—All Stages.
Leave granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to supply a certain sum out of the Central Fund to the service of the year ended on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-seven, and the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-eight, to appropriate to the proper Supply Services and purposes the sums granted by the Central Fund Act, 1957, and this Act, and to make certain provision in relation to borrowing.—(An Tánaiste.)
Agreed to take remaining stages now.
I do not think that the Schedules to the Bill are in exactly the normal form. That may perhaps be due to the general election because the arrangements for the Central Fund Bill were not concluded as early as normally. I take it, if I am correct in that, that the change is purely a change in format and there is no new provision in the Bill.
I want to make one or two small comments in relation to a matter to which I intended to refer yesterday on the Estimate for the Department of Finance but which I overlooked. The Minister for Finance in his Budget statement made it clear that he was proposing to save £250,000 in connection with the Civil Service. There is one way in which real progress can be made in the cutting down of administrative costs. Indeed, it is the main way in which such progress can be made.
I had started certain investigations and certain work along certain lines and I sincerely hope the present Minister will continue them. I refer to the delegation of control by the Department of Finance, in relation to certain details of administrative payments, to outside Departments. There has been, in my opinion, over the years a growth of too much detail referred to the Department of Finance in relation to small matters which come within the ambit of the sub-head of the Estimate already approved by the Department of Finance. We had prepared a substantial list which was in process of negotiation between the Department of Defence and the Department of Finance in relation to the possibility of delegation in that respect. I had found that very frequently there was a good deal of administrative time and trouble and, of course, expenditure incurred in the submission for Finance sanction of trifling details, details which were contemplated at the time the Estimate was being framed and which were clearly within the scope of the Estimate. Progress along those lines will, I believe, in course of time produce some substantial economy in the Civil Service.
The other way in which some progress can be made is in relation to the system of accounting. The business and efficiency firms who examined the Civil Service practices in certain Departments were all quite clear that, if we were to achieve substantial economies on our administrative accounts, we should have to strike out on a new line in certain respects. It might mean legislation. It might mean alteration in the system by which the Dáil deals, through the Committee of Public Accounts, with certain details and it might mean the assistance of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
I do not want to suggest that the transference to a new system is an easy matter or that the way is perfectly clear. It is however a matter that should be examined, and examined home, and I hope that the Minister will examine the matter home as part of the economy in Civil Service administration, which he adumbrated in the Budget. For this Party, I want to say that if that examination shows that any new system in relation to accounting is required the Minister for Finance and the Government will get any co-operation we can give them towards making Civil Service administration in regard to payments more streamlined and more efficient.
The real way in which substantial progress can be made in cutting down the administrative machine is by placing more responsibility on outside Departments. Because of the necessity for referring every detail to the Department of Finance outside Departments had got into the habit of saying: "We will put this up to Finance" and the outside Department rarely turned anything down, preferring to let the Department of Finance be the "dirty boy" in saying "No." That is not the way to have administrative economy. Neither is it the way to achieve efficient administration.
If the gross amount were settled on the policy decision at the time the Estimate is framed with the Department of Finance, and outside Departments were then left to operate within that framework, that would be more satisfactory and would cost less. It must carry with it, however, the absolute responsibility that if that delegation is abused and if there is an excess, or, if in relation to any year, the delegated power is utilised to commit the State in future years, such abrogation of responsibility will be taken very seriously by the Government of the day.
I was trying to get some forecast in relation to Estimates for Departments in future years with a view to ensuring that, when a particular service was introduced, we could say that a Department would have so much this year, so much next year and so much the year afterwards and could plan within that framework. Having laid down that general line of policy, the detailed administration would be dealt with by the outside Departments themselves without the necessity of coming back to the Department of Finance for sanction for details, sometimes details which involve only a trifling expenditure of £2 or £3.
The Minister for Justice knows that there was altogether too much necessity for coming to the Department of Finance for sanction for all sorts of petty details related to the Department of Defence, of which he was Minister, with all manner of cumbersome administrative loss. If the responsibility is put on the Department of Defence and that Department is told to operate within a certain limit, without sanction, a great deal of the coming and going to and fro could be saved.
Deputy Corry rose.
The Deputy may be assured that the Bill is in the usual stereotyped form and contains no novel features. I will bring to the attention of the Minister for Finance, who is engaged in the Seanad, the observations which the Deputy has made. Apparently some changes have already been introduced involving delegation of authority in financial matters, notably in regard to the Department of Defence, and in other Departments also.
We deliberately started on the Department of Defence.
As I understand, the Minister for Finance has under consideration the wider question of the whole system of accounting for the expenditure of public funds. It will be appreciated that no changes can be made easily in that regard and that any changes must necessarily involve some contraction of the information regarding Government expenditure available either to the Dáil or the Committee of Public Accounts. I understand, however, that the Minister is hoping to be able to come to some conclusions as to what is possible in the early future.
Question put and agreed to.
I should like to suggest a further economy.
The Minister has concluded. Does the Deputy wish to put a question?
I stood up to speak.
I am afraid the Minister also stood up to conclude.
To conclude? I thought the Minister could not conclude until the other Deputies had finished. This is a new rule.
Does the Deputy wish to put a question?
I suggest that if the proposals put forward by Deputy Sweetman were applied to the Department of Local Government and the Department of Health in their dealings with local authorities we could do with about 20 per cent. fewer civil servants in each Department. That would be an economy for everybody and there would be less nonsense.
Bill passed through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.